After watching the ranger gameplay video my impression of it is as follows:
Visuals / Environment : 9/10
Combat : 3/10
I can't fathom in my mind how someone would make a tab-target mmorpg in the age we live, & btw this game still have 2-3 years of work so are you seriously plan to release a tab-target mmorpg in 2024-25? unthinkable...
Yes there is still well populated tab-target mmorpg in the market I'm saying this for those who bring the argument about WOW & FFXIV but those are the last ones & the people who play those do it for the PVE content, AoC suppose to be a PVP focused game so don't count on hardcore WOW/FFXIV players to make the jump on AoC whenever it comes out, so how Intrepid plan to lure PVP players in with this kind of combat system? well I'm telling you as someone who only play OW-PVP MMORPGs & although my first game of this kind was Lineage II back in 2004, which was a tab-target game ofc, I have tried so many games since then & after experienced true action combat there is no way I'm going back to a tab-target mmorpg ever again.
So after saying all that & because I don't wanna see this game flop I feel the need to warn you & to guide you if I can to the right path & that is:
GET RID OF TAB-TARGET ENTIRELY & START WORKING ON A TRUE ACTION BATTLE SYSTEM WHERE WE MANUALLY AIM ALL OUR ATTACKS & SKILLS & ANY & ALL ATTACKS CAN BE EVADED.
I feel that I did my part to give feedback & now it's up to the devs to decide, needless to say that if the combat remains as it is then AoC would be an instant skip for me & people like me who quit playing tab-target mmorpg for many-many years now.
Positives:
- Animations and attacks look fun and dynamic. The combination of movement and attacking look right. Fluid and fast.
- I like the hybrid combat. More options are good as is any move away from tab targeting The action combat feels more immersive to me. Tab targeting just feels robotic now a days. I'd rather have full action combat if it's an either/or.
- World is looking gorgeous overall with one caveat (below)
- Minotaurs!
Negatives:
- The caveat. Someone mentioned it earlier but the tree/foliage looks great blowing in the wind at a distance. Close up the movement looks like jello. It was jarring. Most apparent right at the start of the video. Drew my eye immediately.
- Damage output seemed too high on the player side. I get that it's a demo, but you asked how the flow felt to us. I kept wanting to see the shamans bubble shield last for more than 1 arrow or the minotaur to finish a charge rather than go through his animation and then get interrupted. Or for the enemy heal not immediately get nullified by the next shot. Combat ended too quickly for my taste. Or maybe I'm just a Minotaur lover (spoiler: I am)
Mixed:
-Long bow vs Short bow seemed vanilla (big bow does big slow damage. Little bow does faster damage with higher movement. Standard fare). However I like the fact that each will have its own skill tree. That makes it more interesting and hopefully more distinct. Hopefully long bows have a greater range too? I might have missed that mention.
I like how the longbow and shortbow play differently.
I like how you aren't trying to turn this game into an MMOFPS. Planetside 2 is a great game, but for Ashes I don't want that. Leaning heavily into manual aiming would be a bad idea IMO, but I also think it should be possible to do so, like you showed it is.
I really liked the mobility and it seemed pretty fluid already. I will have to test to really get a feel for it though.
The Air Strike seems very cool and fun, BUT I worry if it becomes too exploitable in terms of getting to otherwise unreachable areas. It also lets rangers bypass chokeholds in sieges, which can be good or bad depending.
Initial Impressions
Simply impressed. The ranged combat stands well next to the previously impressive display for melee combat. The sound effects were satisfying. Mobility whilst firing arrows looked like it felt nice and feels ideal. I love the idea of having the snipe shot for those moments where the player gets to catch their breath and pull off a high damage ability.
The air-strike is a fantastic direction that I think unveils the potential of future ability designs.
My main concern is whether or not the player can be influenced by other abilities when mid-air. If air-strike guarantees mobility, this will create a sense of helplessness in the opposing enemy during that instance. I believe it is important that aerial or mobile abilities such as air-strike can be interrupted as to provide counter play and at the same time heighten the player skill ceiling. The mobile ability should not, however, be interrupted by plain damage but by another ability that influences player movement (e.g. a gravity well, a grapple/hook ability, a chain ability).
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I want to see what is essentially a forest scout. This is a archetype that is nimble, quick, and smart. They chip away and annoy targets, and when their target is least expecting it, a well placed arrow critically strikes a vital organ.. they bleed HP! They also utilize traps and induce poisons to slow the enemy. However, when caught, it is punishing. Of course, many rangers will deviate into beast taming or utilize stealth, etc.
I really liked the demonstration of the ranger class. Both the combat system and the three demonstrated skills seem great.
What aspects of the basic range of weapon attacks are important to you?
- The auto attacks seemed great, nothing to add.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
- Supporting skills, i.e. a passive that changes a skill, say snipe, to include: If you hit “Snipe” successfully, you increase the physical attack of your team members (or any other buff). IMO such support skills add depth to team constellations. Another interesting support skill: Transfer aggro to another player.
- Lifesteal skills (augmentation for ranger/cleric or ranger/rogue?)
- Skill “Blood Arrow” from Runes of Magic: “For 30.0 seconds, every second your HP is reduced by 3% and ranged damage is increased by 5.0%. (Right-click the Buff icon to stop the effect.)” I think this fits the “risk vs reward” mentality very well.
- Variation of AoE Skills: Piercing shots, Reflecting shots (“jumps” to other targets)
- Archer’s Glory: “Sacrifices movement advantage in exchange for faster attack speed and greater attack power. For 20.0 seconds, increases Ranged Weapon Attack Speed by 10.0% and Ranged Weapon Damage by 8.0%, but lowers Movement Speed by 80.0%.” (From Runes of Magic)
Is there anything, in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
- This relates more to the archetype/class system in general, but I’m a bit concerned that the different classes feel too similar to play. For rangers, for example, I’d expect a ranger/cleric to be able to take on kind of as a support role, while ranger/rogue would perhaps be more focussed on dmg output. I really like how the dual-class System worked in Runes of Magic. Here’s for example the special skills for different class combinations for Rangers: https://runesofmagic.fandom.com/wiki/Scout_Elite_Skills (they used to be even more heterogeneous, but over the years they were “balanced” to be more similar).
- I’m highly biased, but coming from that game, I feel that different class combinations having different skills is very important for them to have distinct play styles.
- In general, I’d love to see a variety of skills that allow for individual rotations. Perhaps there is an additional way to learn a skill. In RoM for example, you can learn skills from item sets. (Just a handful of such item sets with skills exist, not a common thing).
- I'm excited to see more of the Ranger Classes Skills later on. The way how I can upgrade my character's skills is very important to me, and I hope that AoC has a great system in place that allows for individuality and complex planned-out builds.
- Combat shown with the minotaurs seemed to lack danger. The killing was a bit too easy/quick when pulling them one by one, and they seemed to lack the potential to seriously endanger the player (charge for the "dog"? stun? a mob calling others to help? a stacking debuff that heavily reduces defense? etc.)
On the action vs tab combat: Personally, I like the demonstrated hybrid combat system. It seems nice and a good improvement on traditional tab-targeting MMO's. However, the most fun combat against regular mobs I ever had was in TERA, with true action-based combat. It seems to me as a division related to age: Younger players seem to be quickly bored with tab-targeting because they are used to action combat.
On a sidenote: TERA is the *only* action combat system I liked. Really hate the combat in New World, for example, I immediately uninstalled it. The hybrid system seems to me to be the safer choice.
My only thought is about body blocking or using skills to block/intercept arrows/magic for your allies, could lead to formation strategies during large engagements. Otherwise I enjoyed everything I saw, and heard, am very happy.
The showcase looked really good. Not the biggest fan of the arrow sounds, but it's not too bad.
As for targeting, I prefer tab targeting. I always felt playing a hunter in WoW felt really good. There seems to be some debate on this topic, though. Maybe action targeting could let you shoot around shields (hit the legs), get head shots for a higher critical chance/multiplier, or some other benefit. Maybe even an ability or two (like snipe) requiring manual aim. That might satisfy people who are looking for a more skill based play style.
I'm not sure how something like latency would affect free aim shooting though, which is another reason why I lean more toward tab targeting, aside from my bias.
A lot of people might disagree with this, and I totally understand why, but I like needing to carry arrows in order to shoot. Maybe at least special arrows. This isn't really a benefit to game play, but immersion for me.
So unlike many other people I think the targeting system is fine the way it is. I really don't think there needs to be much incentive to play one method or the other as long as they are both basically balance wise, then I think that's only fine but preferred. Leave it to player preference.
My biggest piece of feedback and my biggest disappointment was how weapon reliant the class seemed. I get *some* abilities needing weapons, but from the discussions it seemed like a lot of the class kit was going to be centered around specific weapons, which in my mind completely defeats the purpose of having the weapon choice be up the player. It entirely defeats the point the of being a sword wielding wizard if I have to keep a staff in my back pocket at all time to be able to use half my kit. I might as well just use a staff. Likewise for ranger. There's no point in being a wand wielding ranger, and in fact it seems like it be actively DISCOURAGED to be a staff or wand wielding ranger. It entirely defeats the purpose of customizability if you shoe horn them into a specific weapon tree to be "optimal". If you want certain classes to use certain weapons, fine. But don't tell people they can use whatever weapon they want just to find out they won't be able to use their kit if they decide to do that. Shield bash should be a weapon skill. Snipe and Quick shot should be weapon skills.
Now there is a more... work intensive alternative. Limit player skills options to something like 5 or 6 slots on their hotbar and make them unable to be changed in combat. Then give players enough skills so that way any weapon they use, they can fill up those slots. It requires creating enough weapon locked skills for every class and every weapon but if it's the route intrepid is going than that's a way to do it.
TL:DR Make a majority if not all of the CLASS kit non-weapon restricted or work with multiple/all weapons. And Leave the weapon locked abilities to the weapon skill trees.
It looks like a hybrid combat system that doesn't require precise aiming to me.
You can add skills that require more precise aiming, or you could not. I'm fairly neutral on it. I'd say do it if you think you can balance it and make it fit in with the rest of the combat system. Either way, what you showed today, in isolation to itself, looks very good.
The bow sounds are very good, but at the same time might be kind of abrasive and overpowering to listen to hundreds or thousands of times a day. I'd maybe tone them down some.
The combat looked fluid and mobility looked good. I liked that the two different bows played differently.
The airstrike skill is really cool. I'd hope that skill is on a relatively high cooldown though. That pronounced of an animation is not something I'd want to see every ranger on the battlefield doing every 7 seconds.
All in all, looking very good for what it is. I can certainly see why people who were strongly hoping for precise aiming are upset though. I didn't see a lick of it.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
I’m not opposed to the tab/action target aspect of what was shown today. I prefer action but could see this system working.
I think tab seemed like it could shine in close/mid-range fights, where you’d rather focus on movement/positioning than aiming.
I think after a certain distance you should be required to switch to action to make your basic shots.
For me personally I cant help but think arrows fly straight.. and that I should physically have to lead my shots. I think if I was beaming people from far away with tab, it would be immersion breaking. Plus it just feels good, when you land a difficult shot with some calculated skill.
I think this would be great compromise between the two systems. Tab is the way to go for most fights but action is where you’ll land those crazy shots that feel so satisfying in pvp.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I think movement is key. A Ranger needs to be able to adapt. They need snares, push back abilities(something to put distance between you and your enemies), a good aoe (think arrow storm), and solid single target dps like snipe. Then of course, some sort of slow. or damage over time ability.
I'd also like to see skills that lend to melee weapons. I think a Ranger should be able to fight up-close if it comes to it. I know the focus is ranged combat, but I want the option to switch to a physical weapon and still have some none range skills to use that make sense. Also I know camouflage was mentioned before and that sounds awesome!
I would not like to see this Archetype being only viable playing a range. Being force to play only ranged to lvl 50 -60 seems incredibly boring.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Air Strike looked sick! I would just say a typical arrow storm for AOE, and some type of pushback/ fleeting shot are a must, that should be added to the kit. New world and ESO do these skills well.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I'm excited to see this hybrid system succeed, I hope that skill based shots are needed at longer range and leading shots for fast moving targets while tab can still thrive in a close/mid range fight.
I am concerned that this archetype would be useless with a melee weapon. Hopefully some skills are included to help with this. I know a Ranger fights with a bow, but Aragorn was pretty handy with a sword.
Unrelated.. I think the Enemy A.I. could use some work.. If a Minotaur has a shield they should use it to block arrows (New world did this annoying well), and the dogs should be smelling you at a distance and rushing you faster. On a more positive note, the world is looking beautiful! Thanks for reading.
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Dragon Nest is a good example that I believe strike a good hybrid system. I think you should checkout the ranger in Dragon Nest and perhaps that might give some inspiration?
As of the current system, I also am dissatisfied with the aim combat. there is no incentive on using the aim function if there are no eg. dmg boosts, headshots, and etc. I would like it to be more skill based. but leaving the target mode in place is preferred as well. sometimes when your laid back you don't want to be constantly aiming.
I’ve been in Mexico for a few weeks away from things, and remembered that this treat was coming in Sep.
Overall, my core hopes for bow attacks were all checked. The two bows sampled appeared to have different cadences, but both were fairly mobile. The switching between action and tab felt smooth, and players aren’t rooted with a draw mechanic. Very happy with the direction.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
- balanced, meaningful filler, I want my active abilities to feel powerful, but not make basic attacks feel like wet noodle gray damage (not do I want basic attacks to be so powerful that active abilities take a back seat)
- basic attacks support a highly versatile play style. I plan on switching often between ranged and melee weapons, the short bow in particular seemed to be setup for that pace of combat
- I want basic attacks to feel engaged with a target, but not overly-committed - this is particularly important when kiting or positioning multiple mobs ‘as one’
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
- Above all: versatility in combat approach. Ranged to melee to mobility to range again.
- Specialization diversity. Not all rangers want to be Legolas archer fanbois. Nor do melee rangers want to be a Do’Urden carbon copy. There’s a blend of weapon specializations and play styles that have yet to be explored and I think it’s important to give players freedom within the archetype to support those options.
- I’d also like to see a deeper connection to nature - not just in damage types, but really picking a biome to study, protect, and use to your advantage.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
- My broken-record example is NWO (that’s Neverwinter Online, not new world) - and from what I saw in the demo you guys kind of nailed it. 👍
- The hold the button to add more damage is an intuitive addition, and I really like that it doesn’t feel overly rooted either.
- The only other attack that might be helpful, is some sort of filler aoe / spread attack. Nothing overly powerful, but maybe two or three arrows on a basic attack with a longer cd? Idk. It’s a stretch.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
- Well I’m both excited and concerned to see the blending of ranged and melee attacks for Ranger. How smoothly will that transition feel? How cool will it be to see? Will it feel awkward? Or too fast? Or too slow? Im super-curious.
I was surprised there was health regen in the first place, and more so at how fast it came back!
It was like COD.
If health regens that fast its going to diminish the usefulness of Healers.
I feel that if there isn't a healer in the party, there should be an action for a player to regain lost health, not AUTO HEAL.
In Asheron's Call you had to use med kits. (Life Mages could heal but the game didn't play that way)
In WoW you had to eat.
I was surprised there was health regen in the first place, and more so at how fast it came back!
It was like COD.
If health regens that fast its going to diminish the usefulness of Healers.
I feel that if there isn't a healer in the party, there should be an action for a player to regain lost health, not AUTO HEAL.
In Asheron's Call you had to use med kits. (Life Mages could heal but the game didn't play that way)
In WoW you had to eat.
Dont take much else from the video other than what they showcased. Steven literally had god mode on.
I'm not a fan of hard lock but I think soft lock is a perfect compromise, especially for ranged. While it is important to feel freedom in combat, I don't think it should take away from the player improving his or her aim and the sense of personal progression that comes from that.
- The whistle of the arrow was a bit much. I used to have a compound bow, and those arrows certainly didn't whistle. I feel it would benefit from a reduction in volume and pitch.
- Shooting while jumping is a bit absurd.
- Character movement speed while shooting doesn't seem to be influenced at all, which I feel needs to be looked at. Shooting on the move should have a movement penalty. Maybe the long bow has it while the short does not?
I was wondering about the line of sight aspect for ranged. During the stream around the 5:10 mark, Steven takes a killing shot that goes through the ground to kill the mob. I was wondering, if I was fighting a ranged player or mob would I be able to use the environment to avoid arrow or magic cast?
I have been following the games development for many many years(5-ish) and, I love watching the game and community grow. I am grateful for all the Intrepid teams has done so far. I look forward to so, many more wonderful streams up to the Alpha 2!
First off, this isn't hybrid. if you want hybrid you mix the 2. This is a TAB + Action.
Second while the Action looked like a good start, the TAB however was very disappointing, especially if what I saw was accurate in the targeting just 360ing no matter the camera direction, there have been far older TAB only games that have utilized camera direction/character placement with the inability to hit behind but this is just the most lazy version of TAB...
I can see people using Action in PVE just for the fun of it but no one will ever use Action in PVP with movement skills jumping people around you would miss way too many attacks, You either need to tone down TAB or give Action a soft perma lock to the last thing they soft targeted otherwise it's just a detriment with no benefits.
While I'm at it I'll point out that TAB not being camera dependant gives TAB a much better situational advantage since you can see better what is going on around you since you don't even need to look at your opponent.
In the end for me this isn't a deal breaker but as it is looking right now it aint a plus either...
Edit: giving the Action side a Tab lockon doesn't make it action anymore just FYI. Even TAB games I just play it 95% of the time holding the right mouse button so this doesn't change anything it just means I don't have to hold a button down the whole time I'm playing it (to be fair tho I will at least take the small win of not having to hold my right mouse button the whole time I'm playing the game)
First off, a bit disappointed with what was shown, it's not all doom and gloom. There are bright spots, but wasn't 100% thrilled, which I will get into. First to hit the major points in the requested information. The BIGGER and full thoughts in the last question asked.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
That there is substance even with autos. Movement reduction when autoing, the shortbow looked like it had none, which is not a good thing. I'd be happier if the reduction just isn't as large as the Longbow, but it visually looked like it had no reduction whatsoever, and was a rapid fire movement DPS, which is not a good thing imo.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
A general sense of the ranger would be traps, detection survival aspects. Movement abilities for relocating and distance dps, which this portion was portrayed well in the dev update.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Yes, absolutely. I believe Tera did an excellent system in all combat elements for action. Which I was hoping to see more in this reveal, instead of the pure tab target combat system we were shown. More details in full review below. For tab systems that still worked well, Lineage 2 always be a gem, the fact that you were rooted even during autos was good, especially considering the damage numbers I was seeing with the autos. If you can deal that much damage with autos, there should be downsides in movement when you attack, more details below.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
Absolutely, here are my full thoughts. What was done right, was the sound effects, the movement/repositioning skill, the look of the animations in shooting were done very well. Loved the arm shake when holding a shot to show the tensing, was very well done in the audio visual side.
The wrong, I believe this is a full tab target system while masquerading in reticule mode. I was hoping for some tera action style elements in combat. Here are key factors in bullet points.
A. There is no benefit in being in reticule mode. Judging by the angle of running and shooting, there is no point to stay in reticule mode and aiming. Considering you are slowed when moving backwards, being in action mode is actually worse to play. If you can position a mob at 90 degrees to your left or right and target locked, and just shoot away while running and changing direction sideways, this can be exploited and takes away from any root aspects of combat. For the hybrid system to work, I believe you need to have aiming elements. Otherwise it will just be a zoom all the way out, run and shoot WoW floaty combat....Which is not satisfying in the slightest.
B. Shouldn't be able to jump and shoot. Even if this is a feature to the shortbow exclusively. I'm not sure if you can just run straight away from a locked target and auto with them at your back. But if your target has to be at your 3 or 9 o'clock to be able to attack, heck, even if it ends up being yo you have to face your target, I can already see the masses running away, jumping for momentum and turn shooting, rinse and repeat. This is pure WoW floatiness in combat which is just downright the wrong direction and breaks immersion, and this will be a realization with the current mechanics in place, so hope this gets rectified. The last thing I want to see are archers running and jumping, 180 turning to shoot quickly and running away again. This is the key factor of why tab target is bad if there is no rooting. You shouldn't get a full benefit of being able to DPS at high numbers, without having any counter play. Lineage 2 did this right, and it was tab target, all bow shots would root, and charges skills would take longer, but it gave time for gaining on the target. Now if the auto attacks were reduced in damage from what was displayed, and all the skills had a root element or forced duration slow, that would make it more bearable.
C. The Snipe animation and idea of charging up your shot is good. Tera did this VERY well. The more you charged, the more damage, and higher levels of the skill had additional levels of charge which was great, had impact, great sounds, was good. But the key aspect was you had to aim. If the Snipe skill is a tab target, I don't have much faith in other skillshot related skills, if there is any planned. There HAS to be some aim skills, the one thing I despised from my previous experiences in older MMO's I've played, had to do with ranged tab target classes. I remember in Aion, being an assassin, and being perma knock backed and rooted from archers, they had no negative downsides since every skill would hit since it was tabbed base with no negative downsides. Massive damage, roots, sleep arrows, etc, yea you might resist a status effect or too, but with all the mobility, jump shooting, it was just downright bad gameplay. Or being jump kited while being applied with dots left and right by sorcs/summoners/mages, with no real means of counterplay as both myself and target, had the same run speed.
Back on topic, but yea, need some actual skill shots. I'd be ok if the auto attacks were tab, but with lower damage than what was shown, as it was pretty high for auto attacks, with some sort of slowed down movement as a result, with snipe and other skills being aim based with a high damage. From the looks of the current setup, this is me speculating, I'm expecting AOE skills, all tab target attacks/skills atm...Which is quite upsetting.
I know I can keep going on and citing references from other games I've experienced. But summing things up. It feels like their is no action side in the archer gameplay. It's a full fledged tab target system, but with reticule mode masquerading as action, which is not good. The only way I can see to solve this. Is to ensure you can not jump and shoot, you have to face your target to shoot an auto or skill, with 100% some form of movement reduction when auto attacking, or using a skill. The addition of actual skill shots that are not just AOE rain of arrows, as I believe that is a cop out to say "We have action combat" when it truly isn't....Tera did action combat VERY well, but the game had nothing else to offer sadly...Was hoping some inspiration could be gleamed from it, as it did melee and range combat in action exceedingly well, where info can be gleaned to help strengthen the action side of ashes.
I do love the idea of locking onto a target for the the hybrid element of combat in action mode, that is smart, I Would of done that as well as I've brainstormed my ideal MMO combat system, but atm, there just is no benefit to the action side, at all, and will end up being a "Why are you not playing in tab mode?" being a reality, as there are negatives to playing in action mode. Which is the worst feeling to have, we already experience that in MMO's with "Ideal" builds, would suck to have that as an entire combat side of the game. Which at that point, game may as well be full tab, with which from prior community reactions from combat, is not what is wanted...So hopefully some compromises can be made to better blend the two...Which IMO, will require aiming skills.
Based on the dev update, the outcry at the beginning on the lack of aiming, being silenced by and shunned by people in chat brown nosing....I'm hoping this plight reaches the right ears, as there was a very large amount of people disheartened during the stream. Hoping for a good representation here on the forums from the community...Cause I really think of Ashes as my ideal game, but I believe this to be a rather large flaw.
Will edit to clean up my points as time goes on, but yea, just wanted to post this quickly, as my passionate nature towards ashes is pushing me forward to post and read the comments from others.
Well said, I thought we were going to get some sort of cutting-edge combat. The Warrior stuff looked decent, but the Ranger stuff.. Never heard of shooting my bow backwards but forwards.
I'm kinda disappointed and Steven literally saying ''we lean more towards tab targeting'' was uh..expected but yikes anyway. Spell effects are decent and the mobility ability was cool. Other than that.....4/10 I'd say
Would you care to elaborate more on why you feel it was a 4/10?
I'm gonna have to agree that I wouldn't scream and jump for joy over it. It looks too much like GW2 and AA, if it is too influenced from those games, then I expect the game to be a zerg fest.
It doesn't seem like there is other influences to balance out the combat.
Good combat entails combat geometry, precision, positioning, timing, and the harmonious flow of strategy and tactics. Most games don't do this well, ArcheAge and GW2 did this incredibly poorly.
I'll remain cautiously optimistic, but I hope the combat gets a good injection of the BR that you guys already had on the action combat side of things.
The problem is, action players don't want aim assist. They want to be rewarded for having good aim.
Nah I'm good with the soft lock, MMOs will always have more limitations so you will never get a FPS style gameplay and Large scale combat, Planetside is about as close as you will get and that game has its own limitations due to that and is strictly built around being FPS.
But you are right tho, the biggest issue is TAB is way too good in comparison.
- Furst off is there going to be a first-person view for sniping?
-Is there going to be bonus for stealth shots?
-As for arrows maybe have one enchanted arrow in your bags and whatever the enchantment is that's what's applied to your shot. The arrows could also have a limited number of charges.
-Maybe have some AOEs, like reign of arrows.
-I would also like to see some crits, where it's an instant kill, like a perfect powered headshot from stealth.
-Maybe some more crowd control I didn't see much when you were playing.
Those are most of my observations based on what we've seen. I know some of this stuff is going to be covered in what we haven't seen but without actually playing the character this is what I can come up with. It looks grate very nice work.
Absolutely loved the livestream! I am very relieved with how you guys decided to tackle the differences between Hybrid and Tab attacks for ranged characters, as I know a lot of us were wondering how y'all would compromise on this issue. I think making it to where the skill floor is relatively lower is overall a good thing, as it makes the baseline for a whole half of the weapons easy to use. Overall 5/5 stream, so excited, can't wait for whatever is next!
I think that a hybrid combat system is great, but as others have expressed, when given the choice between tab target and action combat for ranged classes, everyone will simply go tab targeting because it will almost certainly be superior and choosing action combat mode will put the player at a disadvantage.
In addition, if melee is more action and ranged is more tab-based, then ranged will always simply be better than melee.
Ultimately, I think the best hybrid system will involve developer decisions about what is appropriately an action skill and a tab-targeted skill. I see the ability to toggle as pretty meaningless because of the above. So, for example, healers in 500-person fights will need a method of tab targeting friendly players and their own group members for single-target heals. There's no other way to handle this, really, as in the mass chaos it is impossible to single out friendly players and group members.
I also am in favor of action combat for almost everything that can be action combat, with tab targeting for things that just don't work well as action combat/skill shots (again with the wisdom of the developers as to which should be which, guided by the experiences of the players during testing).
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
Flexibility and variety. Seeing the abilities from this (and the Melee attack Dev update) have been great and I hope we see a lot more from different weapons moving forward.
I really liked the animations and particle effects of the 'Snipe" ability. The 'Rapid shot' ability was nice, but I think could be improved with an animation of the shooter removing bows from the quiver. 'Airstrike' was super "rad" as Steven said and I would really like to see a lot more "Acrobatic" abilities as Trad (Spelling?) mentioned in regards to the short-bow.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I hope that the abilities don't get too crazy and magical. (Save those for the actual mages or perhaps the Scions) What we have seen so far is great and I'd like to see abilities (Of all types) focus on refined, slick movements and cool flourishes rather than rely too much on huge particle effects and bright flashing lights as seen in many Eastern MMOs.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I really like the idea of having different Quivers that augment abilities/types of shot. A 'Fire Quiver' that makes shots flammable. (the particle effects used in 'Snipe' could be red/yellow, 'Airstrike' Aoe could be flames) A Cursed Quiver with purple effects and ghoulish AoE pits of clawing hands. 'Frost Quiver' 'Arcane Quiver'
I'm really looking forward to seeing how abilities are augmented through the choice of second class. There are 8 "Types" of Ranger (Bowsinger, Soulbow, Strider, Scion, Hawkeye, Scout, Falconer and Sentinel) and whilst they are more similar than they are different, I hope we see some quality and meaningful differentiation between them denoted through abilities, attacks and aesthetics. It's always (like everything in game) something that can be built up and worked on over time. Even if there is only a single unique ability for each Ranger archetype to start with, more can be added later.
Asmongold made a good suggestion regarding having a target outlined or highlighted in some way. I also hope there will be other display options when it comes to mobs. Not a fan of long names above mobs. Looks cluttered and doesn't actually provide useful information. Especially if the same information is displayed once the target is hard/soft-locked. I'd rather see nice name plates or a traffic light system with a small coloured spherical icon above a mob which shows red if they are hostile, yellow if they are defensive and green if they are friendly.
Amazing how beautiful the world already looks. The ranged combat looks well designed. Thanks for showing us the tab targeting system and the action combat system. Personally I am more of a action combat enjoyer, so I hope it will turn out good, but watching this makes me confident you can pull it off !
For my critiscism: I hope you dont make the combat too auto attack reliant. While I am not complelty against them having a place in a DPS rotation, they should be (as steven himself said) fillers. I know classes will be able to have more than 3 skills at a time, but I hope you tune the cooldowns in such a way that the majority of the time we will be using skills and not auto attacks. You were talking about beeing able to customize the effects of auto attacks, which leads me to believe they will play a big role in combat. I hope that that role wont be too big and they will be just fillers. It is just a lot cooler to use skills instead of LMB.
I am sure you studied the combat in various games to craft your system. Personally I think black desert online has the best combat system for a variety of reasons, one of which is that you are always able to use a skill. It feels very interactive and statisfying. While the game has its issues, people still mindlessly grind it for thousands of hours. Thats only possible because the endlessly repeating DPS rotations of the classes feel fun to use. I am concerned that that feeling wont be as strong with using a lot of auto attacks.
Firstly amazing livestream. Really liked the snipe ability, felt like it had great oomph and a good trade off with the fact that it can be interrupted if the player is hit.
Feel like the ranger should have a slight mobility decrease when shooting, maybe slowed when firing charged shots.
Honestly wasn’t a huge fan of the air strike ability. It just doesn’t seem to really fit in the class, and stuff like the combat roll seem sufficient for creating space.
I would like to see some sort of ability that involves aiming. This might sound like too much but it’d be cool if there was an ability where the ranger aims up into the air, then it takes the player to some sort of limited bird eye view(top-down perspective) where they can choose an area to launch a volley of arrows. This would of course root the ranger and likely have a fairly long cast time.
This is just what I think of when I think of an airstrike ability, I’m sure whatever you guys end up doing will be fine. Great work and I look forward to seeing next months livestream.
I mained Archer in ArcheAge. While rough around the edges, I thought ArcheAge had the best feeling archer gameplay of any action RPG I've played. It was the perfect balance between strategic RPG elements and skillshots. The emphasis on movement skills and hitbox validation are what make the archery in that game so fun compared to traditional tab targeting.
The archer combat revealed today looks just like ArcheAge's, only more polished. Needless to say, I'm a very, very happy camper.
I like this update. It's not full-action combat with crit headshots however, it allows for more people to use it
I don't think Steven was the right person to ask why action combat or at least this form of action combat that was shown had benefits over tab combat. Since Steven seems to be more of a tab target guy. The benefit of this form of action combat will be seen in PVP more. While tab will benefit more in PvE where the monsters are more so stationary. The fight with the minotaur showed that to an extent. The combat there was a little slow and the mobs weren't fully utilizing the shield and other forms of movement. Imagine trying to hit another player(especially a good PVP player) while they are dodging, ducking, dipping, diving, and possibly teleporting. The action combat that was shown which can b blind fire/shot without a target can be used to shoot where someone is going not where they are. Unlike what we saw in the video with the mobs, other players will actively be trying to dodge your shots. Remember Steven said bows will not be hitscan( when the travel time is zero, so if the aiming reticule is over a pilot's head and you pull the trigger, it's a headshot) instead they are projectile based(which means there will be travel time, so you'll need to lead moving targets). This means you could be missing shots if you try to tab target good PVP players. Now all of what I said is subject to gameplay but from what we saw and what Steven said in the Q&A part tab could very well be good for PvE and their form of action will be more for PVP. Also, keep in mind how long it takes to target with tab target versus action combat when facing 1 or multiple other players. Tab will also be good for open world boss, to keep watch for 3rd party players going after your kill. I just don't know if you will want to be in tab while multiple players are coming after you. That will consume a lot of time in moments where seconds matter.
After watching the ranger gameplay video my impression of it is as follows:
Visuals / Environment : 9/10
Combat : 3/10
I can't fathom in my mind how someone would make a tab-target mmorpg in the age we live, & btw this game still have 2-3 years of work so are you seriously plan to release a tab-target mmorpg in 2024-25? unthinkable...
Yes there is still well populated tab-target mmorpg in the market I'm saying this for those who bring the argument about WOW & FFXIV but those are the last ones & the people who play those do it for the PVE content, AoC suppose to be a PVP focused game so don't count on hardcore WOW/FFXIV players to make the jump on AoC whenever it comes out, so how Intrepid plan to lure PVP players in with this kind of combat system? well I'm telling you as someone who only play OW-PVP MMORPGs & although my first game of this kind was Lineage II back in 2004, which was a tab-target game ofc, I have tried so many games since then & after experienced true action combat there is no way I'm going back to a tab-target mmorpg ever again.
So after saying all that & because I don't wanna see this game flop I feel the need to warn you & to guide you if I can to the right path & that is:
GET RID OF TAB-TARGET ENTIRELY & START WORKING ON A TRUE ACTION BATTLE SYSTEM WHERE WE MANUALLY AIM ALL OUR ATTACKS & SKILLS & ANY & ALL ATTACKS CAN BE EVADED.
I feel that I did my part to give feedback & now it's up to the devs to decide, needless to say that if the combat remains as it is then AoC would be an instant skip for me & people like me who quit playing tab-target mmorpg for many-many years now.
I agree with you 100% but one thing we should know is that when this hit Kickstarter action combat was not promised. The initial play was tab target. This is kind of a medium between tab and action. If we're not careful with criticism they could just change it back to tab target. I would like a full-action combat system but unlike New world, this wasn't built from the ground up to be action combat. Even the enemy mobs work on a tab-target basis.
Comments
Visuals / Environment : 9/10
Combat : 3/10
I can't fathom in my mind how someone would make a tab-target mmorpg in the age we live, & btw this game still have 2-3 years of work so are you seriously plan to release a tab-target mmorpg in 2024-25? unthinkable...
Yes there is still well populated tab-target mmorpg in the market I'm saying this for those who bring the argument about WOW & FFXIV but those are the last ones & the people who play those do it for the PVE content, AoC suppose to be a PVP focused game so don't count on hardcore WOW/FFXIV players to make the jump on AoC whenever it comes out, so how Intrepid plan to lure PVP players in with this kind of combat system? well I'm telling you as someone who only play OW-PVP MMORPGs & although my first game of this kind was Lineage II back in 2004, which was a tab-target game ofc, I have tried so many games since then & after experienced true action combat there is no way I'm going back to a tab-target mmorpg ever again.
So after saying all that & because I don't wanna see this game flop I feel the need to warn you & to guide you if I can to the right path & that is:
GET RID OF TAB-TARGET ENTIRELY & START WORKING ON A TRUE ACTION BATTLE SYSTEM WHERE WE MANUALLY AIM ALL OUR ATTACKS & SKILLS & ANY & ALL ATTACKS CAN BE EVADED.
I feel that I did my part to give feedback & now it's up to the devs to decide, needless to say that if the combat remains as it is then AoC would be an instant skip for me & people like me who quit playing tab-target mmorpg for many-many years now.
- Animations and attacks look fun and dynamic. The combination of movement and attacking look right. Fluid and fast.
- I like the hybrid combat. More options are good as is any move away from tab targeting The action combat feels more immersive to me. Tab targeting just feels robotic now a days. I'd rather have full action combat if it's an either/or.
- World is looking gorgeous overall with one caveat (below)
- Minotaurs!
Negatives:
- The caveat. Someone mentioned it earlier but the tree/foliage looks great blowing in the wind at a distance. Close up the movement looks like jello. It was jarring. Most apparent right at the start of the video. Drew my eye immediately.
- Damage output seemed too high on the player side. I get that it's a demo, but you asked how the flow felt to us. I kept wanting to see the shamans bubble shield last for more than 1 arrow or the minotaur to finish a charge rather than go through his animation and then get interrupted. Or for the enemy heal not immediately get nullified by the next shot. Combat ended too quickly for my taste. Or maybe I'm just a Minotaur lover (spoiler: I am)
Mixed:
-Long bow vs Short bow seemed vanilla (big bow does big slow damage. Little bow does faster damage with higher movement. Standard fare). However I like the fact that each will have its own skill tree. That makes it more interesting and hopefully more distinct. Hopefully long bows have a greater range too? I might have missed that mention.
- Needed more minotaurs. Cow bell optional.
Simply impressed. The ranged combat stands well next to the previously impressive display for melee combat. The sound effects were satisfying. Mobility whilst firing arrows looked like it felt nice and feels ideal. I love the idea of having the snipe shot for those moments where the player gets to catch their breath and pull off a high damage ability.
The air-strike is a fantastic direction that I think unveils the potential of future ability designs.
My main concern is whether or not the player can be influenced by other abilities when mid-air. If air-strike guarantees mobility, this will create a sense of helplessness in the opposing enemy during that instance. I believe it is important that aerial or mobile abilities such as air-strike can be interrupted as to provide counter play and at the same time heighten the player skill ceiling. The mobile ability should not, however, be interrupted by plain damage but by another ability that influences player movement (e.g. a gravity well, a grapple/hook ability, a chain ability).
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I want to see what is essentially a forest scout. This is a archetype that is nimble, quick, and smart. They chip away and annoy targets, and when their target is least expecting it, a well placed arrow critically strikes a vital organ.. they bleed HP! They also utilize traps and induce poisons to slow the enemy. However, when caught, it is punishing. Of course, many rangers will deviate into beast taming or utilize stealth, etc.
What aspects of the basic range of weapon attacks are important to you?
- The auto attacks seemed great, nothing to add.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
- Supporting skills, i.e. a passive that changes a skill, say snipe, to include: If you hit “Snipe” successfully, you increase the physical attack of your team members (or any other buff). IMO such support skills add depth to team constellations. Another interesting support skill: Transfer aggro to another player.
- Lifesteal skills (augmentation for ranger/cleric or ranger/rogue?)
- Skill “Blood Arrow” from Runes of Magic: “For 30.0 seconds, every second your HP is reduced by 3% and ranged damage is increased by 5.0%. (Right-click the Buff icon to stop the effect.)” I think this fits the “risk vs reward” mentality very well.
- Variation of AoE Skills: Piercing shots, Reflecting shots (“jumps” to other targets)
- Archer’s Glory: “Sacrifices movement advantage in exchange for faster attack speed and greater attack power. For 20.0 seconds, increases Ranged Weapon Attack Speed by 10.0% and Ranged Weapon Damage by 8.0%, but lowers Movement Speed by 80.0%.” (From Runes of Magic)
Is there anything, in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
- This relates more to the archetype/class system in general, but I’m a bit concerned that the different classes feel too similar to play. For rangers, for example, I’d expect a ranger/cleric to be able to take on kind of as a support role, while ranger/rogue would perhaps be more focussed on dmg output. I really like how the dual-class System worked in Runes of Magic. Here’s for example the special skills for different class combinations for Rangers: https://runesofmagic.fandom.com/wiki/Scout_Elite_Skills (they used to be even more heterogeneous, but over the years they were “balanced” to be more similar).
- I’m highly biased, but coming from that game, I feel that different class combinations having different skills is very important for them to have distinct play styles.
- In general, I’d love to see a variety of skills that allow for individual rotations. Perhaps there is an additional way to learn a skill. In RoM for example, you can learn skills from item sets. (Just a handful of such item sets with skills exist, not a common thing).
- I'm excited to see more of the Ranger Classes Skills later on. The way how I can upgrade my character's skills is very important to me, and I hope that AoC has a great system in place that allows for individuality and complex planned-out builds.
- Combat shown with the minotaurs seemed to lack danger. The killing was a bit too easy/quick when pulling them one by one, and they seemed to lack the potential to seriously endanger the player (charge for the "dog"? stun? a mob calling others to help? a stacking debuff that heavily reduces defense? etc.)
On the action vs tab combat: Personally, I like the demonstrated hybrid combat system. It seems nice and a good improvement on traditional tab-targeting MMO's. However, the most fun combat against regular mobs I ever had was in TERA, with true action-based combat. It seems to me as a division related to age: Younger players seem to be quickly bored with tab-targeting because they are used to action combat.
On a sidenote: TERA is the *only* action combat system I liked. Really hate the combat in New World, for example, I immediately uninstalled it. The hybrid system seems to me to be the safer choice.
As for targeting, I prefer tab targeting. I always felt playing a hunter in WoW felt really good. There seems to be some debate on this topic, though. Maybe action targeting could let you shoot around shields (hit the legs), get head shots for a higher critical chance/multiplier, or some other benefit. Maybe even an ability or two (like snipe) requiring manual aim. That might satisfy people who are looking for a more skill based play style.
I'm not sure how something like latency would affect free aim shooting though, which is another reason why I lean more toward tab targeting, aside from my bias.
A lot of people might disagree with this, and I totally understand why, but I like needing to carry arrows in order to shoot. Maybe at least special arrows. This isn't really a benefit to game play, but immersion for me.
My biggest piece of feedback and my biggest disappointment was how weapon reliant the class seemed. I get *some* abilities needing weapons, but from the discussions it seemed like a lot of the class kit was going to be centered around specific weapons, which in my mind completely defeats the purpose of having the weapon choice be up the player. It entirely defeats the point the of being a sword wielding wizard if I have to keep a staff in my back pocket at all time to be able to use half my kit. I might as well just use a staff. Likewise for ranger. There's no point in being a wand wielding ranger, and in fact it seems like it be actively DISCOURAGED to be a staff or wand wielding ranger. It entirely defeats the purpose of customizability if you shoe horn them into a specific weapon tree to be "optimal". If you want certain classes to use certain weapons, fine. But don't tell people they can use whatever weapon they want just to find out they won't be able to use their kit if they decide to do that. Shield bash should be a weapon skill. Snipe and Quick shot should be weapon skills.
Now there is a more... work intensive alternative. Limit player skills options to something like 5 or 6 slots on their hotbar and make them unable to be changed in combat. Then give players enough skills so that way any weapon they use, they can fill up those slots. It requires creating enough weapon locked skills for every class and every weapon but if it's the route intrepid is going than that's a way to do it.
TL:DR Make a majority if not all of the CLASS kit non-weapon restricted or work with multiple/all weapons. And Leave the weapon locked abilities to the weapon skill trees.
You can add skills that require more precise aiming, or you could not. I'm fairly neutral on it. I'd say do it if you think you can balance it and make it fit in with the rest of the combat system. Either way, what you showed today, in isolation to itself, looks very good.
The bow sounds are very good, but at the same time might be kind of abrasive and overpowering to listen to hundreds or thousands of times a day. I'd maybe tone them down some.
The combat looked fluid and mobility looked good. I liked that the two different bows played differently.
The airstrike skill is really cool. I'd hope that skill is on a relatively high cooldown though. That pronounced of an animation is not something I'd want to see every ranger on the battlefield doing every 7 seconds.
All in all, looking very good for what it is. I can certainly see why people who were strongly hoping for precise aiming are upset though. I didn't see a lick of it.
I’m not opposed to the tab/action target aspect of what was shown today. I prefer action but could see this system working.
I think tab seemed like it could shine in close/mid-range fights, where you’d rather focus on movement/positioning than aiming.
I think after a certain distance you should be required to switch to action to make your basic shots.
For me personally I cant help but think arrows fly straight.. and that I should physically have to lead my shots. I think if I was beaming people from far away with tab, it would be immersion breaking. Plus it just feels good, when you land a difficult shot with some calculated skill.
I think this would be great compromise between the two systems. Tab is the way to go for most fights but action is where you’ll land those crazy shots that feel so satisfying in pvp.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I think movement is key. A Ranger needs to be able to adapt. They need snares, push back abilities(something to put distance between you and your enemies), a good aoe (think arrow storm), and solid single target dps like snipe. Then of course, some sort of slow. or damage over time ability.
I'd also like to see skills that lend to melee weapons. I think a Ranger should be able to fight up-close if it comes to it. I know the focus is ranged combat, but I want the option to switch to a physical weapon and still have some none range skills to use that make sense. Also I know camouflage was mentioned before and that sounds awesome!
I would not like to see this Archetype being only viable playing a range. Being force to play only ranged to lvl 50 -60 seems incredibly boring.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Air Strike looked sick! I would just say a typical arrow storm for AOE, and some type of pushback/ fleeting shot are a must, that should be added to the kit. New world and ESO do these skills well.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I'm excited to see this hybrid system succeed, I hope that skill based shots are needed at longer range and leading shots for fast moving targets while tab can still thrive in a close/mid range fight.
I am concerned that this archetype would be useless with a melee weapon. Hopefully some skills are included to help with this. I know a Ranger fights with a bow, but Aragorn was pretty handy with a sword.
Unrelated.. I think the Enemy A.I. could use some work.. If a Minotaur has a shield they should use it to block arrows (New world did this annoying well), and the dogs should be smelling you at a distance and rushing you faster. On a more positive note, the world is looking beautiful! Thanks for reading.
As of the current system, I also am dissatisfied with the aim combat. there is no incentive on using the aim function if there are no eg. dmg boosts, headshots, and etc. I would like it to be more skill based. but leaving the target mode in place is preferred as well. sometimes when your laid back you don't want to be constantly aiming.
Overall, my core hopes for bow attacks were all checked. The two bows sampled appeared to have different cadences, but both were fairly mobile. The switching between action and tab felt smooth, and players aren’t rooted with a draw mechanic. Very happy with the direction.
- balanced, meaningful filler, I want my active abilities to feel powerful, but not make basic attacks feel like wet noodle gray damage (not do I want basic attacks to be so powerful that active abilities take a back seat)
- basic attacks support a highly versatile play style. I plan on switching often between ranged and melee weapons, the short bow in particular seemed to be setup for that pace of combat
- I want basic attacks to feel engaged with a target, but not overly-committed - this is particularly important when kiting or positioning multiple mobs ‘as one’
- Above all: versatility in combat approach. Ranged to melee to mobility to range again.
- Specialization diversity. Not all rangers want to be Legolas archer fanbois. Nor do melee rangers want to be a Do’Urden carbon copy. There’s a blend of weapon specializations and play styles that have yet to be explored and I think it’s important to give players freedom within the archetype to support those options.
- I’d also like to see a deeper connection to nature - not just in damage types, but really picking a biome to study, protect, and use to your advantage.
- My broken-record example is NWO (that’s Neverwinter Online, not new world) - and from what I saw in the demo you guys kind of nailed it. 👍
- The hold the button to add more damage is an intuitive addition, and I really like that it doesn’t feel overly rooted either.
- The only other attack that might be helpful, is some sort of filler aoe / spread attack. Nothing overly powerful, but maybe two or three arrows on a basic attack with a longer cd? Idk. It’s a stretch.
- Well I’m both excited and concerned to see the blending of ranged and melee attacks for Ranger. How smoothly will that transition feel? How cool will it be to see? Will it feel awkward? Or too fast? Or too slow? Im super-curious.
This was my favorite update in like 4 months. 🤗
I was surprised there was health regen in the first place, and more so at how fast it came back!
It was like COD.
If health regens that fast its going to diminish the usefulness of Healers.
I feel that if there isn't a healer in the party, there should be an action for a player to regain lost health, not AUTO HEAL.
In Asheron's Call you had to use med kits. (Life Mages could heal but the game didn't play that way)
In WoW you had to eat.
Dont take much else from the video other than what they showcased. Steven literally had god mode on.
- The whistle of the arrow was a bit much. I used to have a compound bow, and those arrows certainly didn't whistle. I feel it would benefit from a reduction in volume and pitch.
- Shooting while jumping is a bit absurd.
- Character movement speed while shooting doesn't seem to be influenced at all, which I feel needs to be looked at. Shooting on the move should have a movement penalty. Maybe the long bow has it while the short does not?
I have been following the games development for many many years(5-ish) and, I love watching the game and community grow. I am grateful for all the Intrepid teams has done so far. I look forward to so, many more wonderful streams up to the Alpha 2!
Second while the Action looked like a good start, the TAB however was very disappointing, especially if what I saw was accurate in the targeting just 360ing no matter the camera direction, there have been far older TAB only games that have utilized camera direction/character placement with the inability to hit behind but this is just the most lazy version of TAB...
I can see people using Action in PVE just for the fun of it but no one will ever use Action in PVP with movement skills jumping people around you would miss way too many attacks, You either need to tone down TAB or give Action a soft perma lock to the last thing they soft targeted otherwise it's just a detriment with no benefits.
While I'm at it I'll point out that TAB not being camera dependant gives TAB a much better situational advantage since you can see better what is going on around you since you don't even need to look at your opponent.
In the end for me this isn't a deal breaker but as it is looking right now it aint a plus either...
Edit: giving the Action side a Tab lockon doesn't make it action anymore just FYI. Even TAB games I just play it 95% of the time holding the right mouse button so this doesn't change anything it just means I don't have to hold a button down the whole time I'm playing it (to be fair tho I will at least take the small win of not having to hold my right mouse button the whole time I'm playing the game)
Well said, I thought we were going to get some sort of cutting-edge combat. The Warrior stuff looked decent, but the Ranger stuff.. Never heard of shooting my bow backwards but forwards.
I'm gonna have to agree that I wouldn't scream and jump for joy over it. It looks too much like GW2 and AA, if it is too influenced from those games, then I expect the game to be a zerg fest.
It doesn't seem like there is other influences to balance out the combat.
Good combat entails combat geometry, precision, positioning, timing, and the harmonious flow of strategy and tactics. Most games don't do this well, ArcheAge and GW2 did this incredibly poorly.
I'll remain cautiously optimistic, but I hope the combat gets a good injection of the BR that you guys already had on the action combat side of things.
But you are right tho, the biggest issue is TAB is way too good in comparison.
-Is there going to be bonus for stealth shots?
-As for arrows maybe have one enchanted arrow in your bags and whatever the enchantment is that's what's applied to your shot. The arrows could also have a limited number of charges.
-Maybe have some AOEs, like reign of arrows.
-I would also like to see some crits, where it's an instant kill, like a perfect powered headshot from stealth.
-Maybe some more crowd control I didn't see much when you were playing.
Those are most of my observations based on what we've seen. I know some of this stuff is going to be covered in what we haven't seen but without actually playing the character this is what I can come up with. It looks grate very nice work.
In addition, if melee is more action and ranged is more tab-based, then ranged will always simply be better than melee.
Ultimately, I think the best hybrid system will involve developer decisions about what is appropriately an action skill and a tab-targeted skill. I see the ability to toggle as pretty meaningless because of the above. So, for example, healers in 500-person fights will need a method of tab targeting friendly players and their own group members for single-target heals. There's no other way to handle this, really, as in the mass chaos it is impossible to single out friendly players and group members.
I also am in favor of action combat for almost everything that can be action combat, with tab targeting for things that just don't work well as action combat/skill shots (again with the wisdom of the developers as to which should be which, guided by the experiences of the players during testing).
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
Flexibility and variety. Seeing the abilities from this (and the Melee attack Dev update) have been great and I hope we see a lot more from different weapons moving forward.
I really liked the animations and particle effects of the 'Snipe" ability. The 'Rapid shot' ability was nice, but I think could be improved with an animation of the shooter removing bows from the quiver. 'Airstrike' was super "rad" as Steven said
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I hope that the abilities don't get too crazy and magical. (Save those for the actual mages or perhaps the Scions) What we have seen so far is great and I'd like to see abilities (Of all types) focus on refined, slick movements and cool flourishes rather than rely too much on huge particle effects and bright flashing lights as seen in many Eastern MMOs.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I really like the idea of having different Quivers that augment abilities/types of shot. A 'Fire Quiver' that makes shots flammable. (the particle effects used in 'Snipe' could be red/yellow, 'Airstrike' Aoe could be flames) A Cursed Quiver with purple effects and ghoulish AoE pits of clawing hands. 'Frost Quiver' 'Arcane Quiver'
I'm really looking forward to seeing how abilities are augmented through the choice of second class. There are 8 "Types" of Ranger (Bowsinger, Soulbow, Strider, Scion, Hawkeye, Scout, Falconer and Sentinel) and whilst they are more similar than they are different, I hope we see some quality and meaningful differentiation between them denoted through abilities, attacks and aesthetics. It's always (like everything in game) something that can be built up and worked on over time. Even if there is only a single unique ability for each Ranger archetype to start with, more can be added later.
Asmongold made a good suggestion regarding having a target outlined or highlighted in some way. I also hope there will be other display options when it comes to mobs. Not a fan of long names above mobs. Looks cluttered and doesn't actually provide useful information. Especially if the same information is displayed once the target is hard/soft-locked. I'd rather see nice name plates or a traffic light system with a small coloured spherical icon above a mob which shows red if they are hostile, yellow if they are defensive and green if they are friendly.
For my critiscism: I hope you dont make the combat too auto attack reliant. While I am not complelty against them having a place in a DPS rotation, they should be (as steven himself said) fillers. I know classes will be able to have more than 3 skills at a time, but I hope you tune the cooldowns in such a way that the majority of the time we will be using skills and not auto attacks. You were talking about beeing able to customize the effects of auto attacks, which leads me to believe they will play a big role in combat. I hope that that role wont be too big and they will be just fillers. It is just a lot cooler to use skills instead of LMB.
I am sure you studied the combat in various games to craft your system. Personally I think black desert online has the best combat system for a variety of reasons, one of which is that you are always able to use a skill. It feels very interactive and statisfying. While the game has its issues, people still mindlessly grind it for thousands of hours. Thats only possible because the endlessly repeating DPS rotations of the classes feel fun to use. I am concerned that that feeling wont be as strong with using a lot of auto attacks.
Feel like the ranger should have a slight mobility decrease when shooting, maybe slowed when firing charged shots.
Honestly wasn’t a huge fan of the air strike ability. It just doesn’t seem to really fit in the class, and stuff like the combat roll seem sufficient for creating space.
I would like to see some sort of ability that involves aiming. This might sound like too much but it’d be cool if there was an ability where the ranger aims up into the air, then it takes the player to some sort of limited bird eye view(top-down perspective) where they can choose an area to launch a volley of arrows. This would of course root the ranger and likely have a fairly long cast time.
This is just what I think of when I think of an airstrike ability, I’m sure whatever you guys end up doing will be fine. Great work and I look forward to seeing next months livestream.
The archer combat revealed today looks just like ArcheAge's, only more polished. Needless to say, I'm a very, very happy camper.
11/10 will likely play archer in this game.
I don't think Steven was the right person to ask why action combat or at least this form of action combat that was shown had benefits over tab combat. Since Steven seems to be more of a tab target guy. The benefit of this form of action combat will be seen in PVP more. While tab will benefit more in PvE where the monsters are more so stationary. The fight with the minotaur showed that to an extent. The combat there was a little slow and the mobs weren't fully utilizing the shield and other forms of movement. Imagine trying to hit another player(especially a good PVP player) while they are dodging, ducking, dipping, diving, and possibly teleporting. The action combat that was shown which can b blind fire/shot without a target can be used to shoot where someone is going not where they are. Unlike what we saw in the video with the mobs, other players will actively be trying to dodge your shots. Remember Steven said bows will not be hitscan( when the travel time is zero, so if the aiming reticule is over a pilot's head and you pull the trigger, it's a headshot) instead they are projectile based(which means there will be travel time, so you'll need to lead moving targets). This means you could be missing shots if you try to tab target good PVP players. Now all of what I said is subject to gameplay but from what we saw and what Steven said in the Q&A part tab could very well be good for PvE and their form of action will be more for PVP. Also, keep in mind how long it takes to target with tab target versus action combat when facing 1 or multiple other players. Tab will also be good for open world boss, to keep watch for 3rd party players going after your kill. I just don't know if you will want to be in tab while multiple players are coming after you. That will consume a lot of time in moments where seconds matter.
I agree with you 100% but one thing we should know is that when this hit Kickstarter action combat was not promised. The initial play was tab target. This is kind of a medium between tab and action. If we're not careful with criticism they could just change it back to tab target. I would like a full-action combat system but unlike New world, this wasn't built from the ground up to be action combat. Even the enemy mobs work on a tab-target basis.