I love the changes between the short and longbow. The old English longbows / War-bow, could shoot up to 400 yards. A PVP headshot at these distances, whilst super difficult, could be rewarded with extreme damage.
General non-combat related observations/questions
-The lighting is top notch. Having to move close at the right angle to see the mobs and the dark silhouette in the morning light is superb.
-The wind effect on trees looks great at a distance but just looks like the plant is shaking/jittering up close.
-Will the birds fly off if you are stealthing past them? Are they meant to be a visual/audio cues used by players to know if they are being snuck up on?
Ranged combat related observations/questions:
The snipe ability and the holding down to do more damage ability seem like no brainers
-Why would you not snipe as a starter for every mob? Just the cooldown?
-Is there a consequence to being hit while you have an arrow notched or when you are holding down the basic attack? Otherwise why would you ever not hold for the full duration except for optimizing last hit scenarios.
-How does (melee) mob AI respond if shot at from a high place that they cannot reach.
-The action combat arrows: how will they interact with stealth/invisible targets?
Comparing it to the melee showcase:
-Melee had a lot of aoe, is it intentional that the ranger is more single target focused? Or did we just not see their aoe moves which are just as common as in melee classes?
Yes, that's a good question. Do mobs have vertical visibilities
Basic attack related:
-I really like the arrows remained projectile based. Having them home in, but still be able to be intercepted by a player playing tank, a wall, or a out-of position mage provides tremendous possibility for teamwork.
Downside of it will be that having wonky hitboxes for objects in the world and player models might cause the projectiles to not hit or not hit the intended target. IE: a target standing behind a stool or medium sized rock that's kneeheight, but still be able to get full cover out of it.
- I would love it if the arrows made a different sound depending on the armor of the target. Perhaps a small metally noise when hitting plate, a darker thump when hitting leather, a nice clean hit sound when hitting cloth. Same goes for hitting shields/protective water shields/arrows getting deflected cuz it hit a tree or wall/or misses because it was dodged etc. Some audio feedback on what you're hitting (or not) basically.
- Jumping/moving while shooting, love it. Very smooth.
- Love the telegraphed air strike ability and it taking a couple of seconds to land the first hit. Gives ample time to react in PvP scenarios.
What i don't like about it is that there's a small FoV increase when using it. Its a tad jarring and made me think the ability was not great on first impression.
- Would love visual feedback on how much you've "charged up" the shot on the longbow.
- I like how the pace looks of the combat. Agile looking shortbow and powerful looking longbow.
- For a softlock / hardlock, i like the concept of a semitransparant hp bar at the top, but i would also love a visual feedback on the nameplate of the actual enemy if you're hardlocked or not.
General:
- The minotaur charge on steven looked really nice. Nicely telegraphed before he does it so the player has a shot at dodge-rolling, blocking or using a counter-attack ability. Perhaps it was just the godmode but i would've liked for him to be knocked down and back instead of just knocked back.
- I also hope the "ranger icon" next to the health bar can be detached/removed when players are rearranging the UI for themselves.
Overall the focus on targeted, auto-aiming homing attacks and abilities was very disappointing. I was hoping to see aimed shots fired without a target required. Reticle based target acquisition "hybrid" is essentially still tab targeting.
There was some discussion during the Q&A about tab vs action combat and the ability to fire manually aimed shots, but it was difficult to determine what this applied to or if a target was still needed. Can you confirm if the abilities shown (the 'basic' arrow shot, snipe, etc) can be fired without a target? If so, is there a damage boost or anything to encourage players to fire them this way to make up for the chance of a miss?
I'm more so disappointed with tracking/homing attacks
The airstrike animation is AMAZING. I can already tell that after using the ability multiple times, I will be able to predict exactly where I will land and the camera follows the character so well that you can see everything going on as it travels smoothly with you.
However, what is the point of a crosshair when the arrows do not go where you are aiming? This "PSEUDO FPS ACTION MODE" is B.S. Aimed abilities need to go where the cross-hair is placed and not auto aim while in action mode. If you're afraid of RPG players not being able to aim, add some aim assist, but ensure your cross-hair placement matters.
I'm behind the design philosophy of risk/reward. Tab targeting is easy as everything always hits, thus aimed abilities should provide more value if properly aimed. Head-shots or shots to other vulnerable areas depending on the monster anatomy should be included and even some skills should require those areas to be hit to achieve all of the skill's conditions/effects.
The tactile holding of every normal bow shot for more damage is AMAZING. To add to this make a perfect shot mechanic for max DPS. If the archer panics and doesn't hold for a specific amount of time, they should be punished by not achieving their full DPS potential. Halo Reach is an amazing example of something like this with the Battle Rifle. Your cross-hair "blooms" and you lose accuracy if you shoot too fast, therefore developing a rhythmic game-play loop during combat becomes your max DPS way to play the game. Another example is in Gears of War, where reloading required a second button press at the right time to perform it the quickest, otherwise you are punished with a longer reload.
Since this is an M.M.O.R.P.G. and not a FPS, make the frame timing of these mechanics generous, but make cross-hair placement matter. This strikes a balance between the two systems and makes MMORPG players feel like they have Shroud aim.
I played a lot of Destiny 1 on Xbox 360, and I was never a great sniper until they increased the aim assist on sniper rifles like the 1000-Yard Stare and instantly I could quick-scope head-shot people 5 feet in front of me. This made me feel like I peaked as a gamer and was in a new group of players, but in reality the aim assist was doing a lot of the work.
These F.P.S.-R.P.G. hybrid mechanics will draw more players to the game. Destiny was a huge success as a "Shared World Looter Shooter" and when talking about ranged combat, these ideas need to come along and be expanded upon.
If you're aim doesn't matter at all, the cross-hair is just a gimmick and feels hollow and fake. It is reduced to just a different way to tab target when it could be so much more.
Again, make the mechanics generous to the M.M.O.R.P.G. player-base, but have some mechanics that reward the ranger for trying to be accurate, draw the bow back just the right amount, and weaving the basic attacks in between the skills.
The most important part about having fun repeatable combat is developing skill, muscle memory, and that requires systems that impose a rhythmic game-play loop during combat.
For instance, I hold q for 1.5-2.5 seconds as a sound plays and I listen for the right twinge of the bowstring to know I have held my basic attack just the right amount for max DPS. I let it fly and it hits the Minotaur in chest (no big deal on a basic attack, not an optimal head-shot, but a small loss in DPS compared to max). Next I want to power up the Broad Head Arrow ability as it charges me. This time I NEED to hit the Minotaur in the head to activate the all of the effects of the Broad Head Arrow (The Broad Head Arrow will Stun the target for 1 second if it hits a Vulnerable Area, but only slows the target for 1 second if it hits anywhere else). I manage to land the head-shot and stun the Minotaur, now I have 1 second to use my Barbed Wire Trap ability to apply a slow and bleed when the Minotaur finally reaches my location.
Real-Time Events, Cross-hair placement, and Rhythmic combat that develops "muscle memory" are the basis of what I'm getting at.
You can make the real-time events have larger optimal timings to make it easier (1-2.5 seconds instead of 1.5-2.5 seconds). Use sound and visual ques to tell the player they are doing it right or wrong.
Adding shooter elements with generous help behind the scenes, while having the players understand that it will be a little harder, will make the players feel like FPS GODS. Why would you want to spam your quick-shot 3 times, or charge snipe without a right and wrong way of doing it? It's just kinda boring and generic without more intricate mechanics.
I think the key here is making it feel like you are aiming and timing everything perfect, while the game slightly holds your hand, expecting that you will have lackluster M.M.O.R.P.G player aim and timing.
(Lets face it M.M.O.R.P.Gs are boringly easy and the hardest content is about getting competent people together, not actually anything to do with game mechanics; don't make it so hard that they don't want to play, just give us competitive people a game we don't get bored with after a month because the mastery ceiling is so low, unrewarding, or unsatisfying)
I think it's impossible to keep everyone happy and by giving people a choice with this hybrid system, they'll be able to keep most people happy. I'm sure there's a lot of people salty about them leaning more towards tab-targeting, but I for one am glad. Please keep but polish the current system.
Would you care to elaborate more on why you feel it was a 4/10?
@Vaknar tbh this is the melee feedback thread all over again.... everyone saying it's bad and it's a 4/10 or 3/10 are just disappointed because they want a shitty New World combat full of aim botters and hackers, not much to elaborate there. The combat is Awesome, just don't listen to people that don't know what they want.
Action MMORPGs ALWAYS have used soft locks, BDO, Tera, Blade e Soul, Elyon, Bless, Vindictus...
there's absolutely no precision aim in any of those games, people just don't know what they are talking about... Ashes has projectiles and soft lock on the action basic attacks it's the same as every other action game (besides new world)
and the argument of asking for "balance" on the Action BASIC ATTACKS giving incentives for the use of action is a Really bad idea - increase the action attacks damage or add headshots and this will be an aimbot and hacker shit show - plus it is impossible to balance it properly and will be a waste of time and effort, I hope intrepid keeps the current plan and don't go down that rabbit hole.
We are 6 years into development and we are talking Basic Attacks, we need to move on, I think from the melee live stream with everyone crying about the action and now with the complaints about tab target it's clear that Intrepid just needs to pick something They want and move on, otherwise we gonna have 100 more reworks trying to make everyone happy and end up failing and making no one happy.
Visuals /Sound/ Environment : 10/10 It's amazing!!
Combat: 4/10 :
I think you are trying to make a revolutionary combat system. But honestly, what I saw yesterday... looks like 2 combat systems, not 1 hybrid combat.
If we have 2 options, we will choose TAB target. And if you nerf TAB target( -dps/- hits/...) you're going to FORCE people to play in ''action combat'' to be competitive(in PVP).
Please don't make the mistake of making a game with 2 options. The combat system should be the same for everyone.
Action combat, especially for PVP, feels much better.
The PVP tab target is = TAB-1-2-3-4-5; TAB-1-2-3-4-5, ...you can't dodge/aim.
I think it's a very simple system for a game that's going to be released in 2025+.
*Edit: Bots/automacros/aimbots/... exist in every MMO. I don't think that's an excuse to say TAB target > action combat.
I really like a lot about where it appears ranger is headed and it's very much what I was hoping for. The two most important things for me about the class is that it is very mobile, and that you can switch between tab target and free aim modes depending on the situation, which is really appealing to me.
I would really like to see headshots added, at the very least in pvp. I think other damage multipliers for different body parts would be really compelling too and would reward skill and focus more than the tab target mode.
Let's say tab target mode is a flat 100% multiplier. In free aim mode, Headshots could be 130%, torso shots could be 110% to reward that bit of extra focus, leg shots could be 75%, and maybe even add foot shots which could be something like 50% or less (but very small hitbox and SLOWS enemy in pvp so high risk, high reward to trip up someone chasing you).
This could be just for PVP mainly, but maybe have some perks for free aim mode for PVE content because it seems like there would be no real reason to use free aim mode over tab target on raid boss fights as it basically eliminates the need to aim so you can focus on mechanics and dodging. Being able to swap to free aim mode to get an extra 10% damage but having to balance it between paying attention to mechanics sounds very rewarding to me and would probably cement me picking ranger class.
Other than that, my main hopes would be for rangers to have lots of options in how they shoot. I would hope for low cooldown abilities where it's not necessarily focused on setting up big maneuvers, but more of picking the best optimal option every global cooldown based on your position or mobs you're shooting. I am basically hoping to not have one fixed dps rotation that I just always use in any one spec and to have it be very situational and movement based. In terms of actual abilities, I'm sure there are already some of these on their kit that just weren't shown yet but I'll list a few that I would like to see make up the core spirit of the class.
PIERCING SHOT 3-5 sec cd or apply on next X auto attacks: Can pass through X enemies and deals basic shot damage + a bit more to all
FAN OF ARROWS 5-10 sec cd: Can change between horizontal or vertical - Shoot X arrows in a cone (either horizonal for aoe or vertical for single target/ enemies on different Z axis) and each one that hits deals 45%ish damage of normal attack.
LEAP 10-15 sec cd: Backflip and jump X meters backwards, shooting a low damage (maybe slowing?) cone in front of where you were, are you are airborne.
VOLLEY longish CD: Basically Hunters Volley ability from WoW. Just a basic rain of arrow for AOE
ROLLS: Just lower cooldown/further/better basic dash than any other class
DIFFERENT TYPES OF ARROWS: Not tracking ammunition is great but I think having different arrow types you could collect or carry a few of at a time would be great to changing damage types/utility based on the situation. You could just equip them in an arrow slot and just have infinite of them. I imagine having the mage subclass would allow elemental arrows with their related effects - that seems like a no brainer. Having something similar, but different would be great to just have as a core for the class. Something similar to rogue poisons in WoW or like the different arrow types in runescape. Adding a little bit of damage over time, or slightly higher crit chance, or apply some other kind of weak debuff, would add a lot of flavor. The effects wouldn't be strong enough to have a clear meta, but it would just feel good to have the options.
The ranger fantasy for me is having all these little things to optimize in the field, and having the ability to adapt optimally to tons of situations. Having many movement options and escapes and tricks, but no damage mitigation skills, making them the squishiest class in the game when you actually catch them. Having my aim really matter ESPECIALLY in PVP.
Overall, I really like what I saw in the stream and I would be over the moon if any of my pipedream ideas end up being in the game. I always try archer classes in MMOs, and in theory they would probably be my favorite goto class but I haven't played one that really feels right. This mix between tab targeting and free aim is pretty much what I always wanted, and if a way can be found to justify actively swapping between both targeting systems in both PVP and PVE then it could very well be my favorite class ever. Looking forward to seeing more.
Ofcourse depending on the lore some ranger classes can have some magic implemented. One thing is stealth, invisibility. You surely need the ranger to be able to go invisible to fulfill that magic hunter fantasy. Moreover as a ranger player myself I do believe that having no casting restrictions on the main and most used abilities is important however some abilities need to have a windup and should reward you for it with a cool and impactful animation. However I would also love to setup traps but since this is an mmo it would be hard to really setup a viable trap as in a bear trap so tripwires that root the enemy and make them take more damage from the hunter would be nice.
There is one thing I hate about what I've seen in the last live stream...
I know this is not the final version, but you need to have ways of evading enemy range attacks. If a shaman casts a waterball and it hits you 100% of the time, no matter if you are jumping, sprinting or even in airstrike, then there is literally no reason for the player to move and not charge their attacks when playing against any range enemy. They'll take damage regardless so what's the point of having mobility is you know for sure it's just a matter of taking down the enemy fast so you don't take as much dmg.
This takes away any learning curve especially because there is a huge aim assist even in action mode which effectively turns you into a melee character that just appears to be ranged.
Other than that everything looks great, the sound qual is amazing and I kinda like the abilities showcased so far.
I love the progress but I hope this to be nowhere near how the ranged combat will look in beta1
A bit off topic, but I will give some feedback on feedback, you guys have many positive comments on this showcase, and a few asking for a more FPS direction with and high skill ceiling that have a decent amount of likes. People are more eager to complain than to compliment and will read the whole thread just to like all the comments they agree with, in comparison to people who will only show up to compliment the showcase and leave.
Overall remember that this is an RPG mainly, where build, strategy and resource management are the main skills that make a player better, aiming has its place for skill shots, but reaction speed and the ability to click in the right place should not define the skill ceiling(btw, these are skills that decay as you age, not a good thing for a game in which you will invest over a decade of your life). Catering to the FPS public who will leave as soon as the new call of duty is out would be a mistake for this MMO which is designed to be a long time investment with way more venues to it that just combat.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
-Mobility Abilities like a jumping backwards mechanic
-Utility abilitites like traps and snareshots to keep enemies at distance
-high single target dmg output on hit
-at the same time make sure, that cc chains dont last forever so that meele players reach their target and have a chance to put in their dmg
-with this said their should not be too many different deminishing return types so that meeles have a chance to get to the target as well in lager scale fights
-while having high dmg output from far distances, rangers should use a weaker amor type and have a limited ability to selfheal as balance
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
-Wow: The ranged combat feels responsiv and fluent to play
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
-I am excited for the ranged combat. Its exactly what fits into an group oriented MMO gameplay. With its characteristic abilitites shown the ranger already has class identity
-While AoC attracts the attention of players from other genres like fps games as well, I think a rather sooner release of aplha 2 could be beneficial so those ppl can get the feeling of a fun and different combat system they arent used to. I think the reason why some MMO interested PPL nowadays reject tab combat system is because they only are used to action combat and have never tryed out tab combat before. So they cannot know the fun and challenging aspects of this combat system. Its not their fault. Because its not as easy to see whats going on in tab combat where you have to know the effects and animations of many abilitites first to understand it. Action combat in fps games is easier to understand where you simply are moving a cross over an enemie and press leftclick to hit a traget. If you are used to that genre where the focus doesnt lay on the use of different abilitites but more on aiming leftclick shots, maybe a tab MMO can be quit overwhelming for those viewers.
Overall I really liked the showcase of the ranged combat. It reminded me of GW2 which strikes a good balance between tab and action, with tab still being the primary. Great to have both the longbow and the shortbow to add variety and choice too. Wouldn't recommend changing too much from the design path this is already on, I think leaning more heavily into action (as some are suggesting) would ruin it.
The air strike seems ok on the ground. But on the castle walls, will be useless, even dangerous to trigger. https://youtu.be/0257a-goFwE?t=934
I like that Steven tried to also rotate the camera during the air strike, to show that you can land facing the enemy. But I think he should get used to high mouse sensitivity, to be able to rotate without need to lift he mouse a few times. Probably will work fine with high sensitivity.
I am not sure about the long button press to trigger the aimed shot. I am not used to hold the 1-5 keys as my fingers have to stay on the movement keys most of the time, ready to move/side roll if needed.
The reticle way of selecting targets feels bad to me because the reticle is on the middle of the screen but the camera rotates around the character, a point further away from the screen surface. So the mouse sensitivity feels reduced compared to when a proper mouse cursor is moved. Switching between them will feel weird.
In first person view would feel better if there is such a mode.
Regarding light
I don't like sun entering my eyes
Give me polarized sunglasses to see the enemy better. https://youtu.be/0257a-goFwE?t=466
Regarding recording, is hard to hear clearly what the other developers say while combat sounds happen.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
I think I will play devils advocate to a degree with my feedback.
So as someone who has mostly played and enjoyed tab based MMOs (i.e. WoW) - I personally think the combat (for me) is great. It would be the kind of thing *I* would enjoy playing. The gameplay looks smooth, the feedback on attacks is good with the weapon attacks. I hope that when we are being attacked by enemies there is as much effort in their audio feedback etc, the minotaurs did have some roar/grunting when attacking/dying and hopefully on attack there is some good feedback there!
The camera work on the jump was fantastic. It didn't seem to disorient too much, looked epic, and I am interested to see how augments can change how this ability interacts.
Onto devils advocate... so first of all, I would like to address the "skill" element people bring up. I think just saying outright that full action (i.e. aimed abilities) - inherently makes something more skillful. Lets just be honest with what we are saying:
- Aiming is one mechanical skill. There is of course a high skill ceiling, but it is one type of skill. I could argue that having to use the part of your brain to focus on aiming constantly may limit your ability to excel in other areas i.e. strategy - but then in the pro scene you have monsters that can have expert aim with high levels of tactics and strategy.
- I made this analogy but if not having action camera means the game is less skillful, then I would expect a lot more people to easily pick up games that don't require mechanical skill - lets say games like chess, or back into gaming - using WoW as an example of a tab/tab enhanced (skillshots) game - you can't just walk into the game and become a pro. The skill level between a pro at the top, and your above-average player is still huge. You have things like APM, timing, positioning, LoS, anticipation. Now, these are all things that you also get in i.e. FPS games, but the weightings are going to be different. I.e. if you have very good mechanical skill, then you could probably succeed while being weaker in other areas. In WoW, you might play a class which requires less APM (which may be your weakness mechanically) - but you can make up by excelling in other areas, again it's weighting.
I want to address the claim that supposedly if you don't have a strict aiming method of combat, the game will be some "easy to play" carebear-fest. This just isn't true. if you aren't skilled in these other areas, you'll probably still get outplayed with or without a full action camera.
- The last showcase was entirely action attacks, and abilities. This showcase was more or less, entirely tab and tab abilities (though he wasn't clear on what THESE abilities strictly would be - it could also change...). I don't think it's that big of a deal if given we had a whole action showcase before, that we see some tab combat on this showcase.
- Please don't make the assumption (until i'm proven otherwise) - that tab players just will have a 100% hit rate. Waterfall stats will exist. So lets perhaps use the assumption players can have stats with gear that gives i.e. dodge chance, and tab players also can get gear with hit chance. This means that you won't have a guaranteed chance to hit.
Then lets flip to action - you have these same stats on gear - the hit is essentially a dead stat, but the dodge will still be effective against tab players.
This would be one attempt to balance the two is the balance in waterfall stats, versus the opportunity to physically miss with a full action camera. Once concern would be, I don't want to give action players the ability to funnel more offensive stats since they might not need hit, so perhaps in action, hit can work differently. MAYBE, hit can give you a bonus to a soft aim assist. VERY SOFT. But essentially does what the hit stat says it does. Essentially widens the hit marker, but only very slightly.
--
BUT - what I will say and agree with a large number of you here with complaint - is that what we did see in the video, it's not right to call it "action combat". I think it is fair that people see it as tab with an action camera. If there any sort of locking of the aim, then really it stops being full action at that point. So if you are showing off the capability to swap and it's more of a tab with action camera, then I think it should be framed as such. I can understand why people who also experienced free aim in Apocalypse (god rest its soul) - might have enjoyed that playstyle and been disappointed by it. So I understand the complaints that they feel that if there will be no capability of a full aim risk/reward based system, then they might be disappointed.
I will also NOTE, that I think balancing the tab and action styles, were they to have full aim, is going to be a pain of a balancing act. The game is PvX, not pvE OR pvP, it is both. If a free-aim class is given bonus damage to compensate the chance to miss, I don't want to feel as a tab player my kit is essentially being gimped where if we both play optimally and hit all our shots (you should expect tab to have waterfall stats to balance their chance to hit - and skill counters), I can't win. And likewise, an action player shouldn't have the exact same damage i.e. if two rangers fight, one tab and one action, the damage output shouldn't be equal or it would be a no brainer to select tab.
--
So intrepid, you have a challenge on your hands here. I think that you are going to upset one crowd one way or the other. Personally I like how it is, and I feel like people are more bought into the systems in the game, than just the combat. I also feel like the majority of the MMO player base have historically played tab, including Steven. So yes, it's likely to probably lean this way. I personally don't feel the game has to be pressured to "cater" to "new gen" MMO players, as the game will ultimately cater to its largest player base which is going to be the MMO veterans - the people who have historically actually stuck around for years at a time in our favourite MMOs. But I do think if the game has sold itself as Tab/Action hybrid, then it's already made the commitment and we are in very deep. is there actually a way to balance a full action camera against a co-existing tab combat?
- Note: huuuge wall of text. Everybody is spilling their mind so decided I would compose everything that comes to mind - god speed Intrepid!
- The whistle of the arrow was a bit much. I used to have a compound bow, and those arrows certainly didn't whistle. I feel it would benefit from a reduction in volume and pitch.
- Shooting while jumping is a bit absurd.
- Character movement speed while shooting doesn't seem to be influenced at all, which I feel needs to be looked at. Shooting on the move should have a movement penalty. Maybe the long bow has it while the short does not?
You can very much jump and fire a bow in RL btw, allthough high poundage longbow probaly not but the short bows definitely able to.
Gaming wise though it better not to hinder vertical movement while fireing, ive played pvp games where u cant fire or attack while jumping and it always becomes a clunky mess of not being able to finish somone off as they jump around rocks where u cant get a shot off cause u have to interupt urself to jump up or there LoS you which trust me isnt fun trying to finish somone running around on 5% for like 10 minutes cause of clunkiness of not being able to attack while mid air
First off, this isn't hybrid. if you want hybrid you mix the 2. This is a TAB + Action.
Second while the Action looked like a good start, the TAB however was very disappointing, especially if what I saw was accurate in the targeting just 360ing no matter the camera direction, there have been far older TAB only games that have utilized camera direction/character placement with the inability to hit behind but this is just the most lazy version of TAB...
I can see people using Action in PVE just for the fun of it but no one will ever use Action in PVP with movement skills jumping people around you would miss way too many attacks, You either need to tone down TAB or give Action a soft perma lock to the last thing they soft targeted otherwise it's just a detriment with no benefits.
While I'm at it I'll point out that TAB not being camera dependant gives TAB a much better situational advantage since you can see better what is going on around you since you don't even need to look at your opponent.
In the end for me this isn't a deal breaker but as it is looking right now it aint a plus either...
Edit: giving the Action side a Tab lockon doesn't make it action anymore just FYI. Even TAB games I just play it 95% of the time holding the right mouse button so this doesn't change anything it just means I don't have to hold a button down the whole time I'm playing it (to be fair tho I will at least take the small win of not having to hold my right mouse button the whole time I'm playing the game)
tbh the action combat is hybrid it seems, since you select something with the curser then you can right click to lock that character which would then mean you wouldnt need to have cursor over them to hit them.
So its kina tab targeting + Hybrid, tbh the tab targeting aspect is kinda redundant but i guess it helps those old players who cant adapt to newer systems
Also something i havant realy seen people comment on which i rather love tbh, Is the mob leashe lines. They are far greater it seems than your standard MMO these days. They definelty seem to chase much further than your standard MMo where they reset when they walk 10m away from there spawn mobs in new MMO are very unfit it seems an tire after 10 steps and be like fk this im going back home.
Ashes mobs seems to chase you a good distance and relay want you dead i hope this remains tbh i kinda miss the days of everquest where if your running from a mob there gonna chase you to either A the zone line or B till you find a guard to save you, it more realistic in regard of the mobs not giving up till they well and truely chase you out of there home :P
I was surprised there was health regen in the first place, and more so at how fast it came back!
It was like COD.
If health regens that fast its going to diminish the usefulness of Healers.
I feel that if there isn't a healer in the party, there should be an action for a player to regain lost health, not AUTO HEAL.
In Asheron's Call you had to use med kits. (Life Mages could heal but the game didn't play that way)
In WoW you had to eat.
regen like that i think is fine out of combat which seemed like what was happening here but i thin the delay between regen kicking in out of combat does need to be longer, cause in pvp it sometime easy to drop combat in large scale and if healing happen after 5 seconds and ur full hp again its not good if it was like 30 seconds of out of combat then u get that regen i think it fine since it reduces down time much like WoW with food/water which takes 30 second to consume
Visuals /Sound/ Environment : 10/10 It's amazing!!
Combat: 4/10 :
I think you are trying to make a revolutionary combat system. But honestly, what I saw yesterday... looks like 2 combat systems, not 1 hybrid combat.
If we have 2 options, we will choose TAB target. And if you nerf TAB target( -dps/- hits/...) you're going to FORCE people to play in ''action combat'' to be competitive(in PVP).
Please don't make the mistake of making a game with 2 options. The combat system should be the same for everyone.
Action combat, especially for PVP, feels much better.
The PVP tab target is = TAB-1-2-3-4-5; TAB-1-2-3-4-5, ...you can't dodge/aim.
I think it's a very simple system for a game that's going to be released in 2025+.
*Edit: Bots/automacros/aimbots/... exist in every MMO. I don't think that's an excuse to say TAB target > action combat.
tbh i think this is fine, tab targeting is good when mindlessly farming mobs cause RSI doing tab targeting but i would like a quick hot button to swap to action/hybrid mode for if i get jumped, i would prefer using action/hybrid in pvp though but if netflix and mindlessly pveing i think tab targting be the way to go since RSI or what ever it called :P
Hey, will try to do my best describing what I felt was missing from the preview of Ranged combat and it was so important that I thought I must give feedback on it as soon as possible. The main point I will be covering is mostly too early to judge for right now and not that easy to explain and understand correctly, but I figured it is very important to shine the light on right now, so it will possibly help the game in the future. Please note, that English is not my first language, so I will do upmost of my power in explaining and hope you could understand me.
Let's start with the strong and positive sides, that are definitely very well inserted and bring positive impressions:
- The audio feedback in general seems very consistent and sets a pretty good immersion with your weapon, great job
- Animations in general look very improved, and especially the ability with the charged shot, that has green vine looking effects glowing around you, that must be the best possible integration of the effects for ranger I've ever witnessed in my experience of 20+ years of RPG, the subtlety is just enough for it to be not too flashy, but also it does not look too underwhelming as it happens in the most RPG games with ranger representation, where animation limits to elements of the arrows or goofy splashes of energy trying to enhance every movement. The theme of this part of the skill highlighting, chosen very carefully and implemented extremely well, the direction is very sound and complements the background of the character which enhances the feel of ethnicity.
Though some animations and the general direction with the force and identity that allows to set the decent distinction between weapon versions are looking very promising, there are plenty of things to be improved. Based on the prefix, I assume that some animations are simply not finished and polished yet, so I won't go into much detail on those, but just in case, any attack animation could use the arrow grabbing animations for better immersion, additionally the effects on the pirouette animation, could totally use a tone down, for better subtlety, as to not cross that line for flashiness, but that's just my preference.
The first thing that could totally use improvement is the visibility of the projectile itself, you have great arrow trail, great impact effects, maybe even too great, but the arrow itself sometimes vanishes from our sight, especially while in the complex weather effects like fog, or sun rays. The idea of arrows being swift and deadly is great, but sometimes it just makes it look, like you're shooting bullets or some magic sparkles, especially with these pretty distinct impact effects. Additionally, it could be a great implementation for ethnicity’s sake, to make your ranger have sight so sharp, he could very clearly identify any projectiles, and especially his own arrows in the fray of battle.
Following on that is the main point I wanted to express, and I hope I can manage to deliver it correctly. I guess you can call it the possible enhancements of direction for your characters. And additionally, as prefix, I do understand that it is work in progress and some of the things I will be pointing at, mostly come to fruition at the very end of development, but I thought it is very crucial and worth mentioning right this moment, so it might be considered and implemented during the development.
The most important thing to me in MMO and any RPG game with any action, gameplay wise, for very agile characters and classes like rangers, rogues, etc. really is the rhythm and cohesiveness of them. I have not tried it out, so I cannot be very precise on the feel of it, additionally we've seen only 3 abilities with addition of basic attacks (Quick Shots, Snipe and the Pirouette move), but from the looks of it, right now they do not complement each other very well if at all. The perspective I'm getting at is the timings and general smoothness of one ability following after another, as well as their time framing and rhythmical structure in general.
Just like in real life, archers and sword dancers must keep consistent rhythm to be successful, keeping their breath and balance in check, the game implementation should share it as well. It is not a direct principle of the character "as a rhythm game", but the addition of that cohesiveness and rules of timings for abilities produce a very major impact on the feel of the gameplay. Biologically, anything that has correct rhythmical structure behind it is easier to understand and naturally consume for the human body, so for something that will always be happening for very long periods of time like playing an MMO character is pretty crucial.
Additionally, It will add that feel of Grace and Smoothness in rotation for the character. If everything implemented correctly, there will be no awkward feelings or situations for using any ability combination contrary to what it is now and the possibility where you wouldn't want to use a specific combination of abilities if you were trying to optimize your gameplay since it wouldn't be as optimal as another combination.
What I am trying to explain especially caught my eye the first time I've seen the Pirouette animation, as it is very long, with somewhat wacky timings, and looks completely out of space after watching attack animations from rhythmical and sleekness angle. What you showed were definitely great and thematically sound abilities, but they lacked that deep connection within the class identity itself.
Think of it as your rotation represents the movie scene in the musically schemed setting and everything abides by the rules of music, where you start with the mighty and well-prepared snipe shot for let's say 2,5 musical times of any chosen meter, then you follow with the regular 1.0 sized shots as the enemy starts approaching, after that you try to increase the distance with the 1.0 sized tumble, then you do three quick 0,5 sized shots, as the enemy approaching, and as the foe is about to reach you, you perform a 3.5 sized pirouette with additional 0.5 sized shots in the middle of animation to finish the opponent. (looking at it from that rhythmical perspective, our hero makes a 1.0 sized jump following by three 0.5 sized quick shots or for sense of enhancement the last shot could be extended for the full 1.0 sized shot, and 1.0 sized landing bringing it to 4.0 sized sequence). All those actions would demonstrate the very Grace and Agility of the ranger, their inner swiftness and consistency, as well as keeping the breath in check, putting the immersion of the battle dance on the whole new level. These implementations are very deep, and you can't point them out directly at the first glance, but that philosophy in mind in my opinion would greatly complement the development of the class and the feel of it. I hope I managed to deliver the general idea, in case you'd like further explanations or details on it, please let me know.
To conclude my piece of feedback, I'd like to say a couple of things about the UI. The bottom ability bars look very clean, have some similarities with the UI we gamers are used to from our classical RPG games, very good start, could totally use more identity, but again, like the skill highlighting - very subtle and in check with its main function - ease of understanding and readability. The health bar and mana bar severely ruin the immersion as they are right now, the only saving grace being the class identifier, but I assume these are very work in progress and placeholder at this moment. What I would like to see for them - change to better elvish/ranger colors, and addition of some stylized artwork in the same vein as for the bottom UI to complement the ethnicity, with animations for complete flexing of your talented teams. Complete change of the placeholder font, but it is a placeholder for a reason.
As for the enemy heath bars - they are fine and decent enough to read, possibly just visual feedback changes.
The thing that I also hope is very work in progress is the name plates - these blend too much with the world and could use some additional information, as of right now - not enough.
All in all, the minimalistic approach to UI is good, but it needs a lot of polish and addition of some important information (like monster levels, their allegiance, etc.)
These are most of the things I got for feedback regarding this showcase, if you need anything - don't hesitate to contact me anytime, much love
*Another addition - the ability to chose between action targeting and tab targeting is amazing, from technical side it is a huge advantage for accessibility and comfort of your players, great job! "
Loved the showcase.
The reticule target acquisition & hard-lock seems good to me (hello from the old tab-targeting population here. I don't play FPS but I play ranged in RPGs), longbow/shortbow difference seems natural to me. Would like to see a couple showcasing of skillshots though.
As for the arrow sound effects, are those audible only to the shooting player? Or will other players nearby (e.g. the targeted guy) hear them as well? If so, will there be augments (from rogues etc.) for silencing the shots?
Things I'd like to see:
- Ability to CANCEL skills there are being charged (firing it into the ground doesn't count)
- Mobility, disengagement, cc/snare skills. As according to the wiki rangers apparently have a minimum range.
Things I don't want to see:
- Ammo, unless there's interesting gameplay/choices associated with it.
- FPS ranger.
3
Options
TryolMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2022
The only negative:
The time to kill, even considering it was ranged against a normal mob with cloth armor seemed way too fast. Considering how 30s TTK is planned for PvP, I'd expect fights like this to last almost twice as long as they did in the showcase.
The positives:
Everything else that was shown was perfect. I was afraid that the filler attacks will have an option to be fully aimed (without targeting), but I'm glad that's not the case. Balancing that with the tab-only option and the RPG stat system would have been impossible IMO.
Taking the tab-targeting system as a base and pushing it as close to an "action-y" feel as the system allows, seems to be the perfect middle ground for both the MMORPG players and the "modern MMORPG players" (who clearly just played New World 🤏).
I loved all the mobility; how much you can move and the fact that you can jump while shooting.
The UI looks clean and usable so far, the animations for the health bar are great.
The VFX on the skills look amazing.
The projectile-based collisions were also great.
iam really stunned by the things u try to do an implement in the game. BUT as for the range combat there are a few things u may already thought ahout it and discarded or u need to think about now. First of the sounds, i mean a normal bow doesnt sound like that every time u pull it back and shoot an arrow. it gets really annoying and takes the immersion away of being an sneaky archer with his cool looking swift bow. it sounds more like a cartoon like version. and that doesnt fit the look of the game and the feeling i got from the video. imagine u being on a wall with 10 other archers and hearing all that annoying sound all the time. pls cahnge it or discard the punning sound at all. then i really hope u think about implementing a hit box system for ppl who want to aim freely and not target lock and just pressing 1 key. that is a super boring axperience for both melee but especially for ranged cause u have nothing to do. it was awful in wow and will be awful in ur game as well. i want to feel the difference of a real good archer and someone who just presses a button. then we need an ammo system where i can change my arrows. like heavyer but high damage arrows that dont fly that long but do higher damage. fire arrows, magical arrows (a magic archer who only shoots and uses a magic bow would be insane) i mean the ammo system is not a must since u said there are ways to buff ur shots and implement status effects but to be honest after a couple of minutes the gameplay already felt boring to watch. cause u target lock ant just press the button. and idk if u discarded it but cant u dodge other projectiles? or let obstacles block them? if not u really should think abot it. makes the combat so much more immersive and ads so much to sige and pvp battles
I will be honest, im really worried about the direction the TT/AA combat could go based on some comments in here.
Providing advantages like bonus damage for AA is a horrible idea and will affect player behaviour in a forced way.
The only way i see a competitive AA/TT hybrid combat working well is by establishing some skills AA only, like aoe abilities for example.
Giving the player a choice is not always the best idea, and in this case is a really bad one cause there will always be a "best way" to play and the player will feel forced to use it.
As for the ranger in particular, auto attacks should be TT only imo, and you could add shooting traps and rain of arrows as AA even a particular strong shot could work as AA as well.
Loved the work and improvement guys, feels like a solid foundation, and i'm more excited to play than ever. Here are some of my more detailed opinions (just IMO)
Basic Weapon Attacks
YES YES!
1. Loved the philosophy of making basic attacks matter! Having proc and status effects creates so much combat variety people can build into such as
- Cold style that chills and can proc freeze or freezes on the accumulation of chill stacks
- A Broken status that increased physical damage and can disarm
- Proc lightning sparks that can potentially chain to a nearby enemys
2. The agency/mobility looks good with attack speed and movement between bows. Contextual behavior of holding vs tapping adds to that agency
CONCERNS
1. The sounds are probably early dev but were a bit loud and repetitive/grating.
IDEAS
1. Having status effects and weapon procs create reactive/action-based opportunities adds tonnes of horizontal character to combat i.e.
- You have a lightning status called STATIC, on proc, it builds up charges that stack (last X seconds each). You can when you like expend these charges to expel the static as lightning damage. For Melee it is in an AOE nova and for Ranged weapons, it shoots out a lightning strike line attack.
- A fire status called FEVER which builds charges also but now when you press to expend the charges with melee weapons it creates a heat field around you for 1 second per charge for Fire DOT damage. for Ranged weapons, you can expend to gain attack speed for 1 second per charge.
For an even more reactive combat feel Instead of just having linear x per charge you could even push this further and have thresholds like Static 1-3 creates a nova 4-6 large nova 7-10 lightning strikes down to enemies around you.
Ranger Architype
YES YES!
- Interactive elements like Snipe having a charge time and Quickshot having cooldown stack decisions
CONCERNS
- Airstrike felt like it roots the camera and motion in a slightly clunky way and approaches feeling slightly over the top or BDO like.
IDEAS
Some hopefully thematic and less obvious skill ideas
- Natures Veil - A camouflaging ability that doesn't make you invisible but textures you in the surrounding biome 'like a ghillie suit' and provides evasion chance
- WindWhistle - The ranger whistles and the wind picks up around the enemies confusing them and causing a short effect where they swing at the wind around them
- Rain of Arrows - Suppression & DOT AOE (Circle targetting template that expands from smaller to larger as you charge it)
Tab / Action / Hybrid
YES YES!
Firstly I think it's important to say that I respect your vision for this combat and I do believe that your more tab-centric philosophy works best for an MMO. There are other games if you want to show how pro headshot you are.
CONCERNS
That being said I if you are keeping the action part of the combat away from skill-based elements like pure aim/headshots/range etc then you need to make sure there are plenty of skill-based skills with templates and aiming involved. This way it ensures the game doesn't feel like an FPS but offers the RISK/REWARD good feeling of having to learn to nail your skill shots and mastering your class not just being an everyone can always maximally effective player combat simulator. A lot of games achieve this by having tonnes of cooldowns to manage though to me that is not fun challenge, that is a chore. So finding ways for skills to have more of the skill in them would be great.
IDEAS
Skill ideas for example: Snipe could you have a chance for it to deal bonus damage of reduce the cooldown if you release it exactly when it reaches full charge (like the start of mario cart lol) Airstrike might have the circles slightly overlap so there is a double or 1.5x damage in an overlapping ven area. Rain of Arrows as the classic circle area suppression skill. In this design style should be a circle area template rather than a 'centre it of the targetted unit'
Mobs and TTK
YES YES!
- The modelling looks incredible
CONCERNS
- There really needs to be some dodgeable attacks and effects from these mobs even as a solo player I feel it's such a cheap way to make combat feel engaging. The animations looked good but the design effects of their skills like the charge length and their aggresion felt very non threatening and like they were just totems spitting out unaviodable damage numbers. I really feel that this touches on combat feeling more action based which is the one thing that few other MMO's do right. They focus on player agency when in fact that agency is useless if the mobs are going to hit you regardless and rarely force you to react. The same can be said for melee where typically you just get zerged by mobs with no collision and no ability to stutter them or 'knock them off balance'(not literally but in any sense of breaking their flow or patterns).
- Idle states were a little bland and immersion-breaking.
- Some of the strafing seemed formulaic
- IDEAS
Animated Idle states
Having them fiddling with their weapons, interacting with one another, walking in small patrol areas or at least shifting their stance and positioning/looking around
Environment
GENERAL THOUGHTS
- It's hard to say anything bad about these environments. To massively nitpick I would say that the wave distortion the winds put on the leaves is sometimes a little low res so it makes the leave look like floppy decals. (Fully appreciate that this is likely a technical limitation though).
- Oh and IMO please be careful about leaning too much on the 'Giant epic scale thing in distance' as a worldbuilding technique as there is something about it that can reduce the grandeur of the rest of the regularly sized world. I am all for a giant dinosaur skull here an impending mountain there but the tower in this demo did feel almost ridiculously large.
Thanks for reading and I really hope some if any of this was helpful.
Cheers
My biggest piece of feedback and my biggest disappointment was how weapon reliant the class seemed. I get *some* abilities needing weapons, but from the discussions it seemed like a lot of the class kit was going to be centered around specific weapons, which in my mind completely defeats the purpose of having the weapon choice be up the player. It entirely defeats the point the of being a sword wielding wizard if I have to keep a staff in my back pocket at all time to be able to use half my kit. I might as well just use a staff. Likewise for ranger. There's no point in being a wand wielding ranger, and in fact it seems like it be actively DISCOURAGED to be a staff or wand wielding ranger. It entirely defeats the purpose of customizability if you shoe horn them into a specific weapon tree to be "optimal". If you want certain classes to use certain weapons, fine. But don't tell people they can use whatever weapon they want just to find out they won't be able to use their kit if they decide to do that. Shield bash should be a weapon skill. Snipe and Quick shot should be weapon skills.
I agree with this. There should be weapon skills and class skills. A wizard is not a staff or wand. A wizard is magical power. A ranger is not a bow and shouldn't stop being a ranger if they use a staff.
Comments
Yes, that's a good question. Do mobs have vertical visibilities
-I really like the arrows remained projectile based. Having them home in, but still be able to be intercepted by a player playing tank, a wall, or a out-of position mage provides tremendous possibility for teamwork.
Downside of it will be that having wonky hitboxes for objects in the world and player models might cause the projectiles to not hit or not hit the intended target. IE: a target standing behind a stool or medium sized rock that's kneeheight, but still be able to get full cover out of it.
- I would love it if the arrows made a different sound depending on the armor of the target. Perhaps a small metally noise when hitting plate, a darker thump when hitting leather, a nice clean hit sound when hitting cloth. Same goes for hitting shields/protective water shields/arrows getting deflected cuz it hit a tree or wall/or misses because it was dodged etc. Some audio feedback on what you're hitting (or not) basically.
- Jumping/moving while shooting, love it. Very smooth.
- Love the telegraphed air strike ability and it taking a couple of seconds to land the first hit. Gives ample time to react in PvP scenarios.
What i don't like about it is that there's a small FoV increase when using it. Its a tad jarring and made me think the ability was not great on first impression.
- Would love visual feedback on how much you've "charged up" the shot on the longbow.
- I like how the pace looks of the combat. Agile looking shortbow and powerful looking longbow.
- For a softlock / hardlock, i like the concept of a semitransparant hp bar at the top, but i would also love a visual feedback on the nameplate of the actual enemy if you're hardlocked or not.
General:
- The minotaur charge on steven looked really nice. Nicely telegraphed before he does it so the player has a shot at dodge-rolling, blocking or using a counter-attack ability. Perhaps it was just the godmode but i would've liked for him to be knocked down and back instead of just knocked back.
- I also hope the "ranger icon" next to the health bar can be detached/removed when players are rearranging the UI for themselves.
I'm more so disappointed with tracking/homing attacks
The airstrike animation is AMAZING. I can already tell that after using the ability multiple times, I will be able to predict exactly where I will land and the camera follows the character so well that you can see everything going on as it travels smoothly with you.
However, what is the point of a crosshair when the arrows do not go where you are aiming? This "PSEUDO FPS ACTION MODE" is B.S. Aimed abilities need to go where the cross-hair is placed and not auto aim while in action mode. If you're afraid of RPG players not being able to aim, add some aim assist, but ensure your cross-hair placement matters.
I'm behind the design philosophy of risk/reward. Tab targeting is easy as everything always hits, thus aimed abilities should provide more value if properly aimed. Head-shots or shots to other vulnerable areas depending on the monster anatomy should be included and even some skills should require those areas to be hit to achieve all of the skill's conditions/effects.
The tactile holding of every normal bow shot for more damage is AMAZING. To add to this make a perfect shot mechanic for max DPS. If the archer panics and doesn't hold for a specific amount of time, they should be punished by not achieving their full DPS potential. Halo Reach is an amazing example of something like this with the Battle Rifle. Your cross-hair "blooms" and you lose accuracy if you shoot too fast, therefore developing a rhythmic game-play loop during combat becomes your max DPS way to play the game. Another example is in Gears of War, where reloading required a second button press at the right time to perform it the quickest, otherwise you are punished with a longer reload.
Since this is an M.M.O.R.P.G. and not a FPS, make the frame timing of these mechanics generous, but make cross-hair placement matter. This strikes a balance between the two systems and makes MMORPG players feel like they have Shroud aim.
I played a lot of Destiny 1 on Xbox 360, and I was never a great sniper until they increased the aim assist on sniper rifles like the 1000-Yard Stare and instantly I could quick-scope head-shot people 5 feet in front of me. This made me feel like I peaked as a gamer and was in a new group of players, but in reality the aim assist was doing a lot of the work.
These F.P.S.-R.P.G. hybrid mechanics will draw more players to the game. Destiny was a huge success as a "Shared World Looter Shooter" and when talking about ranged combat, these ideas need to come along and be expanded upon.
If you're aim doesn't matter at all, the cross-hair is just a gimmick and feels hollow and fake. It is reduced to just a different way to tab target when it could be so much more.
Again, make the mechanics generous to the M.M.O.R.P.G. player-base, but have some mechanics that reward the ranger for trying to be accurate, draw the bow back just the right amount, and weaving the basic attacks in between the skills.
The most important part about having fun repeatable combat is developing skill, muscle memory, and that requires systems that impose a rhythmic game-play loop during combat.
For instance, I hold q for 1.5-2.5 seconds as a sound plays and I listen for the right twinge of the bowstring to know I have held my basic attack just the right amount for max DPS. I let it fly and it hits the Minotaur in chest (no big deal on a basic attack, not an optimal head-shot, but a small loss in DPS compared to max). Next I want to power up the Broad Head Arrow ability as it charges me. This time I NEED to hit the Minotaur in the head to activate the all of the effects of the Broad Head Arrow (The Broad Head Arrow will Stun the target for 1 second if it hits a Vulnerable Area, but only slows the target for 1 second if it hits anywhere else). I manage to land the head-shot and stun the Minotaur, now I have 1 second to use my Barbed Wire Trap ability to apply a slow and bleed when the Minotaur finally reaches my location.
Real-Time Events, Cross-hair placement, and Rhythmic combat that develops "muscle memory" are the basis of what I'm getting at.
You can make the real-time events have larger optimal timings to make it easier (1-2.5 seconds instead of 1.5-2.5 seconds). Use sound and visual ques to tell the player they are doing it right or wrong.
Adding shooter elements with generous help behind the scenes, while having the players understand that it will be a little harder, will make the players feel like FPS GODS. Why would you want to spam your quick-shot 3 times, or charge snipe without a right and wrong way of doing it? It's just kinda boring and generic without more intricate mechanics.
I think the key here is making it feel like you are aiming and timing everything perfect, while the game slightly holds your hand, expecting that you will have lackluster M.M.O.R.P.G player aim and timing.
(Lets face it M.M.O.R.P.Gs are boringly easy and the hardest content is about getting competent people together, not actually anything to do with game mechanics; don't make it so hard that they don't want to play, just give us competitive people a game we don't get bored with after a month because the mastery ceiling is so low, unrewarding, or unsatisfying)
@Vaknar tbh this is the melee feedback thread all over again.... everyone saying it's bad and it's a 4/10 or 3/10 are just disappointed because they want a shitty New World combat full of aim botters and hackers, not much to elaborate there. The combat is Awesome, just don't listen to people that don't know what they want.
Action MMORPGs ALWAYS have used soft locks, BDO, Tera, Blade e Soul, Elyon, Bless, Vindictus...
there's absolutely no precision aim in any of those games, people just don't know what they are talking about... Ashes has projectiles and soft lock on the action basic attacks it's the same as every other action game (besides new world)
and the argument of asking for "balance" on the Action BASIC ATTACKS giving incentives for the use of action is a Really bad idea - increase the action attacks damage or add headshots and this will be an aimbot and hacker shit show - plus it is impossible to balance it properly and will be a waste of time and effort, I hope intrepid keeps the current plan and don't go down that rabbit hole.
We are 6 years into development and we are talking Basic Attacks, we need to move on, I think from the melee live stream with everyone crying about the action and now with the complaints about tab target it's clear that Intrepid just needs to pick something They want and move on, otherwise we gonna have 100 more reworks trying to make everyone happy and end up failing and making no one happy.
Combat: 4/10 :
I think you are trying to make a revolutionary combat system. But honestly, what I saw yesterday... looks like 2 combat systems, not 1 hybrid combat.
If we have 2 options, we will choose TAB target. And if you nerf TAB target( -dps/- hits/...) you're going to FORCE people to play in ''action combat'' to be competitive(in PVP).
Please don't make the mistake of making a game with 2 options. The combat system should be the same for everyone.
Action combat, especially for PVP, feels much better.
The PVP tab target is = TAB-1-2-3-4-5; TAB-1-2-3-4-5, ...you can't dodge/aim.
I think it's a very simple system for a game that's going to be released in 2025+.
*Edit: Bots/automacros/aimbots/... exist in every MMO. I don't think that's an excuse to say TAB target > action combat.
I would really like to see headshots added, at the very least in pvp. I think other damage multipliers for different body parts would be really compelling too and would reward skill and focus more than the tab target mode.
Let's say tab target mode is a flat 100% multiplier. In free aim mode, Headshots could be 130%, torso shots could be 110% to reward that bit of extra focus, leg shots could be 75%, and maybe even add foot shots which could be something like 50% or less (but very small hitbox and SLOWS enemy in pvp so high risk, high reward to trip up someone chasing you).
This could be just for PVP mainly, but maybe have some perks for free aim mode for PVE content because it seems like there would be no real reason to use free aim mode over tab target on raid boss fights as it basically eliminates the need to aim so you can focus on mechanics and dodging. Being able to swap to free aim mode to get an extra 10% damage but having to balance it between paying attention to mechanics sounds very rewarding to me and would probably cement me picking ranger class.
Other than that, my main hopes would be for rangers to have lots of options in how they shoot. I would hope for low cooldown abilities where it's not necessarily focused on setting up big maneuvers, but more of picking the best optimal option every global cooldown based on your position or mobs you're shooting. I am basically hoping to not have one fixed dps rotation that I just always use in any one spec and to have it be very situational and movement based. In terms of actual abilities, I'm sure there are already some of these on their kit that just weren't shown yet but I'll list a few that I would like to see make up the core spirit of the class.
PIERCING SHOT 3-5 sec cd or apply on next X auto attacks: Can pass through X enemies and deals basic shot damage + a bit more to all
FAN OF ARROWS 5-10 sec cd: Can change between horizontal or vertical - Shoot X arrows in a cone (either horizonal for aoe or vertical for single target/ enemies on different Z axis) and each one that hits deals 45%ish damage of normal attack.
LEAP 10-15 sec cd: Backflip and jump X meters backwards, shooting a low damage (maybe slowing?) cone in front of where you were, are you are airborne.
VOLLEY longish CD: Basically Hunters Volley ability from WoW. Just a basic rain of arrow for AOE
ROLLS: Just lower cooldown/further/better basic dash than any other class
DIFFERENT TYPES OF ARROWS: Not tracking ammunition is great but I think having different arrow types you could collect or carry a few of at a time would be great to changing damage types/utility based on the situation. You could just equip them in an arrow slot and just have infinite of them. I imagine having the mage subclass would allow elemental arrows with their related effects - that seems like a no brainer. Having something similar, but different would be great to just have as a core for the class. Something similar to rogue poisons in WoW or like the different arrow types in runescape. Adding a little bit of damage over time, or slightly higher crit chance, or apply some other kind of weak debuff, would add a lot of flavor. The effects wouldn't be strong enough to have a clear meta, but it would just feel good to have the options.
The ranger fantasy for me is having all these little things to optimize in the field, and having the ability to adapt optimally to tons of situations. Having many movement options and escapes and tricks, but no damage mitigation skills, making them the squishiest class in the game when you actually catch them. Having my aim really matter ESPECIALLY in PVP.
Overall, I really like what I saw in the stream and I would be over the moon if any of my pipedream ideas end up being in the game. I always try archer classes in MMOs, and in theory they would probably be my favorite goto class but I haven't played one that really feels right. This mix between tab targeting and free aim is pretty much what I always wanted, and if a way can be found to justify actively swapping between both targeting systems in both PVP and PVE then it could very well be my favorite class ever. Looking forward to seeing more.
I know this is not the final version, but you need to have ways of evading enemy range attacks. If a shaman casts a waterball and it hits you 100% of the time, no matter if you are jumping, sprinting or even in airstrike, then there is literally no reason for the player to move and not charge their attacks when playing against any range enemy. They'll take damage regardless so what's the point of having mobility is you know for sure it's just a matter of taking down the enemy fast so you don't take as much dmg.
This takes away any learning curve especially because there is a huge aim assist even in action mode which effectively turns you into a melee character that just appears to be ranged.
Other than that everything looks great, the sound qual is amazing and I kinda like the abilities showcased so far.
I love the progress but I hope this to be nowhere near how the ranged combat will look in beta1
Overall remember that this is an RPG mainly, where build, strategy and resource management are the main skills that make a player better, aiming has its place for skill shots, but reaction speed and the ability to click in the right place should not define the skill ceiling(btw, these are skills that decay as you age, not a good thing for a game in which you will invest over a decade of your life). Catering to the FPS public who will leave as soon as the new call of duty is out would be a mistake for this MMO which is designed to be a long time investment with way more venues to it that just combat.
-Mobility Abilities like a jumping backwards mechanic
-Utility abilitites like traps and snareshots to keep enemies at distance
-high single target dmg output on hit
-at the same time make sure, that cc chains dont last forever so that meele players reach their target and have a chance to put in their dmg
-with this said their should not be too many different deminishing return types so that meeles have a chance to get to the target as well in lager scale fights
-while having high dmg output from far distances, rangers should use a weaker amor type and have a limited ability to selfheal as balance
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
-Wow: The ranged combat feels responsiv and fluent to play
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
-I am excited for the ranged combat. Its exactly what fits into an group oriented MMO gameplay. With its characteristic abilitites shown the ranger already has class identity
-While AoC attracts the attention of players from other genres like fps games as well, I think a rather sooner release of aplha 2 could be beneficial so those ppl can get the feeling of a fun and different combat system they arent used to. I think the reason why some MMO interested PPL nowadays reject tab combat system is because they only are used to action combat and have never tryed out tab combat before. So they cannot know the fun and challenging aspects of this combat system. Its not their fault. Because its not as easy to see whats going on in tab combat where you have to know the effects and animations of many abilitites first to understand it. Action combat in fps games is easier to understand where you simply are moving a cross over an enemie and press leftclick to hit a traget. If you are used to that genre where the focus doesnt lay on the use of different abilitites but more on aiming leftclick shots, maybe a tab MMO can be quit overwhelming for those viewers.
The air strike seems ok on the ground. But on the castle walls, will be useless, even dangerous to trigger.
https://youtu.be/0257a-goFwE?t=934
I like that Steven tried to also rotate the camera during the air strike, to show that you can land facing the enemy. But I think he should get used to high mouse sensitivity, to be able to rotate without need to lift he mouse a few times. Probably will work fine with high sensitivity.
I am not sure about the long button press to trigger the aimed shot. I am not used to hold the 1-5 keys as my fingers have to stay on the movement keys most of the time, ready to move/side roll if needed.
The reticle way of selecting targets feels bad to me because the reticle is on the middle of the screen but the camera rotates around the character, a point further away from the screen surface. So the mouse sensitivity feels reduced compared to when a proper mouse cursor is moved. Switching between them will feel weird.
In first person view would feel better if there is such a mode.
Regarding light
I don't like sun entering my eyes
Give me polarized sunglasses to see the enemy better.
https://youtu.be/0257a-goFwE?t=466
Regarding recording, is hard to hear clearly what the other developers say while combat sounds happen.
PLEASE DON’T EVER CHANGE THAT
So as someone who has mostly played and enjoyed tab based MMOs (i.e. WoW) - I personally think the combat (for me) is great. It would be the kind of thing *I* would enjoy playing. The gameplay looks smooth, the feedback on attacks is good with the weapon attacks. I hope that when we are being attacked by enemies there is as much effort in their audio feedback etc, the minotaurs did have some roar/grunting when attacking/dying and hopefully on attack there is some good feedback there!
The camera work on the jump was fantastic. It didn't seem to disorient too much, looked epic, and I am interested to see how augments can change how this ability interacts.
Onto devils advocate... so first of all, I would like to address the "skill" element people bring up. I think just saying outright that full action (i.e. aimed abilities) - inherently makes something more skillful. Lets just be honest with what we are saying:
- Aiming is one mechanical skill. There is of course a high skill ceiling, but it is one type of skill. I could argue that having to use the part of your brain to focus on aiming constantly may limit your ability to excel in other areas i.e. strategy - but then in the pro scene you have monsters that can have expert aim with high levels of tactics and strategy.
- I made this analogy but if not having action camera means the game is less skillful, then I would expect a lot more people to easily pick up games that don't require mechanical skill - lets say games like chess, or back into gaming - using WoW as an example of a tab/tab enhanced (skillshots) game - you can't just walk into the game and become a pro. The skill level between a pro at the top, and your above-average player is still huge. You have things like APM, timing, positioning, LoS, anticipation. Now, these are all things that you also get in i.e. FPS games, but the weightings are going to be different. I.e. if you have very good mechanical skill, then you could probably succeed while being weaker in other areas. In WoW, you might play a class which requires less APM (which may be your weakness mechanically) - but you can make up by excelling in other areas, again it's weighting.
I want to address the claim that supposedly if you don't have a strict aiming method of combat, the game will be some "easy to play" carebear-fest. This just isn't true. if you aren't skilled in these other areas, you'll probably still get outplayed with or without a full action camera.
- The last showcase was entirely action attacks, and abilities. This showcase was more or less, entirely tab and tab abilities (though he wasn't clear on what THESE abilities strictly would be - it could also change...). I don't think it's that big of a deal if given we had a whole action showcase before, that we see some tab combat on this showcase.
- Please don't make the assumption (until i'm proven otherwise) - that tab players just will have a 100% hit rate. Waterfall stats will exist. So lets perhaps use the assumption players can have stats with gear that gives i.e. dodge chance, and tab players also can get gear with hit chance. This means that you won't have a guaranteed chance to hit.
Then lets flip to action - you have these same stats on gear - the hit is essentially a dead stat, but the dodge will still be effective against tab players.
This would be one attempt to balance the two is the balance in waterfall stats, versus the opportunity to physically miss with a full action camera. Once concern would be, I don't want to give action players the ability to funnel more offensive stats since they might not need hit, so perhaps in action, hit can work differently. MAYBE, hit can give you a bonus to a soft aim assist. VERY SOFT. But essentially does what the hit stat says it does. Essentially widens the hit marker, but only very slightly.
--
BUT - what I will say and agree with a large number of you here with complaint - is that what we did see in the video, it's not right to call it "action combat". I think it is fair that people see it as tab with an action camera. If there any sort of locking of the aim, then really it stops being full action at that point. So if you are showing off the capability to swap and it's more of a tab with action camera, then I think it should be framed as such. I can understand why people who also experienced free aim in Apocalypse (god rest its soul) - might have enjoyed that playstyle and been disappointed by it. So I understand the complaints that they feel that if there will be no capability of a full aim risk/reward based system, then they might be disappointed.
I will also NOTE, that I think balancing the tab and action styles, were they to have full aim, is going to be a pain of a balancing act. The game is PvX, not pvE OR pvP, it is both. If a free-aim class is given bonus damage to compensate the chance to miss, I don't want to feel as a tab player my kit is essentially being gimped where if we both play optimally and hit all our shots (you should expect tab to have waterfall stats to balance their chance to hit - and skill counters), I can't win. And likewise, an action player shouldn't have the exact same damage i.e. if two rangers fight, one tab and one action, the damage output shouldn't be equal or it would be a no brainer to select tab.
--
So intrepid, you have a challenge on your hands here. I think that you are going to upset one crowd one way or the other. Personally I like how it is, and I feel like people are more bought into the systems in the game, than just the combat. I also feel like the majority of the MMO player base have historically played tab, including Steven. So yes, it's likely to probably lean this way. I personally don't feel the game has to be pressured to "cater" to "new gen" MMO players, as the game will ultimately cater to its largest player base which is going to be the MMO veterans - the people who have historically actually stuck around for years at a time in our favourite MMOs. But I do think if the game has sold itself as Tab/Action hybrid, then it's already made the commitment and we are in very deep. is there actually a way to balance a full action camera against a co-existing tab combat?
- Note: huuuge wall of text. Everybody is spilling their mind so decided I would compose everything that comes to mind - god speed Intrepid!
You can very much jump and fire a bow in RL btw, allthough high poundage longbow probaly not but the short bows definitely able to.
Gaming wise though it better not to hinder vertical movement while fireing, ive played pvp games where u cant fire or attack while jumping and it always becomes a clunky mess of not being able to finish somone off as they jump around rocks where u cant get a shot off cause u have to interupt urself to jump up or there LoS you which trust me isnt fun trying to finish somone running around on 5% for like 10 minutes cause of clunkiness of not being able to attack while mid air
tbh the action combat is hybrid it seems, since you select something with the curser then you can right click to lock that character which would then mean you wouldnt need to have cursor over them to hit them.
So its kina tab targeting + Hybrid, tbh the tab targeting aspect is kinda redundant but i guess it helps those old players who cant adapt to newer systems
Ashes mobs seems to chase you a good distance and relay want you dead i hope this remains tbh i kinda miss the days of everquest where if your running from a mob there gonna chase you to either A the zone line or B till you find a guard to save you, it more realistic in regard of the mobs not giving up till they well and truely chase you out of there home :P
regen like that i think is fine out of combat which seemed like what was happening here but i thin the delay between regen kicking in out of combat does need to be longer, cause in pvp it sometime easy to drop combat in large scale and if healing happen after 5 seconds and ur full hp again its not good if it was like 30 seconds of out of combat then u get that regen i think it fine since it reduces down time much like WoW with food/water which takes 30 second to consume
tbh i think this is fine, tab targeting is good when mindlessly farming mobs cause RSI doing tab targeting but i would like a quick hot button to swap to action/hybrid mode for if i get jumped, i would prefer using action/hybrid in pvp though but if netflix and mindlessly pveing i think tab targting be the way to go since RSI or what ever it called :P
- - The audio feedback in general seems very consistent and sets a pretty good immersion with your weapon, great job
- - Animations in general look very improved, and especially the ability with the charged shot, that has green vine looking effects glowing around you, that must be the best possible integration of the effects for ranger I've ever witnessed in my experience of 20+ years of RPG, the subtlety is just enough for it to be not too flashy, but also it does not look too underwhelming as it happens in the most RPG games with ranger representation, where animation limits to elements of the arrows or goofy splashes of energy trying to enhance every movement. The theme of this part of the skill highlighting, chosen very carefully and implemented extremely well, the direction is very sound and complements the background of the character which enhances the feel of ethnicity.
Though some animations and the general direction with the force and identity that allows to set the decent distinction between weapon versions are looking very promising, there are plenty of things to be improved. Based on the prefix, I assume that some animations are simply not finished and polished yet, so I won't go into much detail on those, but just in case, any attack animation could use the arrow grabbing animations for better immersion, additionally the effects on the pirouette animation, could totally use a tone down, for better subtlety, as to not cross that line for flashiness, but that's just my preference.The first thing that could totally use improvement is the visibility of the projectile itself, you have great arrow trail, great impact effects, maybe even too great, but the arrow itself sometimes vanishes from our sight, especially while in the complex weather effects like fog, or sun rays. The idea of arrows being swift and deadly is great, but sometimes it just makes it look, like you're shooting bullets or some magic sparkles, especially with these pretty distinct impact effects. Additionally, it could be a great implementation for ethnicity’s sake, to make your ranger have sight so sharp, he could very clearly identify any projectiles, and especially his own arrows in the fray of battle.
Following on that is the main point I wanted to express, and I hope I can manage to deliver it correctly. I guess you can call it the possible enhancements of direction for your characters. And additionally, as prefix, I do understand that it is work in progress and some of the things I will be pointing at, mostly come to fruition at the very end of development, but I thought it is very crucial and worth mentioning right this moment, so it might be considered and implemented during the development.
The most important thing to me in MMO and any RPG game with any action, gameplay wise, for very agile characters and classes like rangers, rogues, etc. really is the rhythm and cohesiveness of them. I have not tried it out, so I cannot be very precise on the feel of it, additionally we've seen only 3 abilities with addition of basic attacks (Quick Shots, Snipe and the Pirouette move), but from the looks of it, right now they do not complement each other very well if at all. The perspective I'm getting at is the timings and general smoothness of one ability following after another, as well as their time framing and rhythmical structure in general.
Just like in real life, archers and sword dancers must keep consistent rhythm to be successful, keeping their breath and balance in check, the game implementation should share it as well. It is not a direct principle of the character "as a rhythm game", but the addition of that cohesiveness and rules of timings for abilities produce a very major impact on the feel of the gameplay. Biologically, anything that has correct rhythmical structure behind it is easier to understand and naturally consume for the human body, so for something that will always be happening for very long periods of time like playing an MMO character is pretty crucial.
Additionally, It will add that feel of Grace and Smoothness in rotation for the character. If everything implemented correctly, there will be no awkward feelings or situations for using any ability combination contrary to what it is now and the possibility where you wouldn't want to use a specific combination of abilities if you were trying to optimize your gameplay since it wouldn't be as optimal as another combination.
What I am trying to explain especially caught my eye the first time I've seen the Pirouette animation, as it is very long, with somewhat wacky timings, and looks completely out of space after watching attack animations from rhythmical and sleekness angle. What you showed were definitely great and thematically sound abilities, but they lacked that deep connection within the class identity itself.
Think of it as your rotation represents the movie scene in the musically schemed setting and everything abides by the rules of music, where you start with the mighty and well-prepared snipe shot for let's say 2,5 musical times of any chosen meter, then you follow with the regular 1.0 sized shots as the enemy starts approaching, after that you try to increase the distance with the 1.0 sized tumble, then you do three quick 0,5 sized shots, as the enemy approaching, and as the foe is about to reach you, you perform a 3.5 sized pirouette with additional 0.5 sized shots in the middle of animation to finish the opponent. (looking at it from that rhythmical perspective, our hero makes a 1.0 sized jump following by three 0.5 sized quick shots or for sense of enhancement the last shot could be extended for the full 1.0 sized shot, and 1.0 sized landing bringing it to 4.0 sized sequence). All those actions would demonstrate the very Grace and Agility of the ranger, their inner swiftness and consistency, as well as keeping the breath in check, putting the immersion of the battle dance on the whole new level. These implementations are very deep, and you can't point them out directly at the first glance, but that philosophy in mind in my opinion would greatly complement the development of the class and the feel of it. I hope I managed to deliver the general idea, in case you'd like further explanations or details on it, please let me know.
To conclude my piece of feedback, I'd like to say a couple of things about the UI. The bottom ability bars look very clean, have some similarities with the UI we gamers are used to from our classical RPG games, very good start, could totally use more identity, but again, like the skill highlighting - very subtle and in check with its main function - ease of understanding and readability. The health bar and mana bar severely ruin the immersion as they are right now, the only saving grace being the class identifier, but I assume these are very work in progress and placeholder at this moment. What I would like to see for them - change to better elvish/ranger colors, and addition of some stylized artwork in the same vein as for the bottom UI to complement the ethnicity, with animations for complete flexing of your talented teams. Complete change of the placeholder font, but it is a placeholder for a reason.
As for the enemy heath bars - they are fine and decent enough to read, possibly just visual feedback changes.
The thing that I also hope is very work in progress is the name plates - these blend too much with the world and could use some additional information, as of right now - not enough.
All in all, the minimalistic approach to UI is good, but it needs a lot of polish and addition of some important information (like monster levels, their allegiance, etc.)
These are most of the things I got for feedback regarding this showcase, if you need anything - don't hesitate to contact me anytime, much love
*Another addition - the ability to chose between action targeting and tab targeting is amazing, from technical side it is a huge advantage for accessibility and comfort of your players, great job! "
The reticule target acquisition & hard-lock seems good to me (hello from the old tab-targeting population here. I don't play FPS but I play ranged in RPGs), longbow/shortbow difference seems natural to me. Would like to see a couple showcasing of skillshots though.
As for the arrow sound effects, are those audible only to the shooting player? Or will other players nearby (e.g. the targeted guy) hear them as well? If so, will there be augments (from rogues etc.) for silencing the shots?
Things I'd like to see:
- Ability to CANCEL skills there are being charged (firing it into the ground doesn't count)
- Mobility, disengagement, cc/snare skills. As according to the wiki rangers apparently have a minimum range.
Things I don't want to see:
- Ammo, unless there's interesting gameplay/choices associated with it.
- FPS ranger.
The time to kill, even considering it was ranged against a normal mob with cloth armor seemed way too fast. Considering how 30s TTK is planned for PvP, I'd expect fights like this to last almost twice as long as they did in the showcase.
The positives:
Everything else that was shown was perfect. I was afraid that the filler attacks will have an option to be fully aimed (without targeting), but I'm glad that's not the case. Balancing that with the tab-only option and the RPG stat system would have been impossible IMO.
Taking the tab-targeting system as a base and pushing it as close to an "action-y" feel as the system allows, seems to be the perfect middle ground for both the MMORPG players and the "modern MMORPG players" (who clearly just played New World
I loved all the mobility; how much you can move and the fact that you can jump while shooting.
The UI looks clean and usable so far, the animations for the health bar are great.
The VFX on the skills look amazing.
The projectile-based collisions were also great.
iam really stunned by the things u try to do an implement in the game. BUT as for the range combat there are a few things u may already thought ahout it and discarded or u need to think about now. First of the sounds, i mean a normal bow doesnt sound like that every time u pull it back and shoot an arrow. it gets really annoying and takes the immersion away of being an sneaky archer with his cool looking swift bow. it sounds more like a cartoon like version. and that doesnt fit the look of the game and the feeling i got from the video. imagine u being on a wall with 10 other archers and hearing all that annoying sound all the time. pls cahnge it or discard the punning sound at all. then i really hope u think about implementing a hit box system for ppl who want to aim freely and not target lock and just pressing 1 key. that is a super boring axperience for both melee but especially for ranged cause u have nothing to do. it was awful in wow and will be awful in ur game as well. i want to feel the difference of a real good archer and someone who just presses a button. then we need an ammo system where i can change my arrows. like heavyer but high damage arrows that dont fly that long but do higher damage. fire arrows, magical arrows (a magic archer who only shoots and uses a magic bow would be insane) i mean the ammo system is not a must since u said there are ways to buff ur shots and implement status effects but to be honest after a couple of minutes the gameplay already felt boring to watch. cause u target lock ant just press the button. and idk if u discarded it but cant u dodge other projectiles? or let obstacles block them? if not u really should think abot it. makes the combat so much more immersive and ads so much to sige and pvp battles
Providing advantages like bonus damage for AA is a horrible idea and will affect player behaviour in a forced way.
The only way i see a competitive AA/TT hybrid combat working well is by establishing some skills AA only, like aoe abilities for example.
Giving the player a choice is not always the best idea, and in this case is a really bad one cause there will always be a "best way" to play and the player will feel forced to use it.
As for the ranger in particular, auto attacks should be TT only imo, and you could add shooting traps and rain of arrows as AA even a particular strong shot could work as AA as well.
YES YES!
1. Loved the philosophy of making basic attacks matter! Having proc and status effects creates so much combat variety people can build into such as
- Cold style that chills and can proc freeze or freezes on the accumulation of chill stacks
- A Broken status that increased physical damage and can disarm
- Proc lightning sparks that can potentially chain to a nearby enemys
2. The agency/mobility looks good with attack speed and movement between bows. Contextual behavior of holding vs tapping adds to that agency
CONCERNS
1. The sounds are probably early dev but were a bit loud and repetitive/grating.
IDEAS
1. Having status effects and weapon procs create reactive/action-based opportunities adds tonnes of horizontal character to combat i.e.
- You have a lightning status called STATIC, on proc, it builds up charges that stack (last X seconds each). You can when you like expend these charges to expel the static as lightning damage. For Melee it is in an AOE nova and for Ranged weapons, it shoots out a lightning strike line attack.
- A fire status called FEVER which builds charges also but now when you press to expend the charges with melee weapons it creates a heat field around you for 1 second per charge for Fire DOT damage. for Ranged weapons, you can expend to gain attack speed for 1 second per charge.
For an even more reactive combat feel Instead of just having linear x per charge you could even push this further and have thresholds like Static 1-3 creates a nova 4-6 large nova 7-10 lightning strikes down to enemies around you.
YES YES!
- Interactive elements like Snipe having a charge time and Quickshot having cooldown stack decisions
CONCERNS
- Airstrike felt like it roots the camera and motion in a slightly clunky way and approaches feeling slightly over the top or BDO like.
IDEAS
Some hopefully thematic and less obvious skill ideas
- Natures Veil - A camouflaging ability that doesn't make you invisible but textures you in the surrounding biome 'like a ghillie suit' and provides evasion chance
- WindWhistle - The ranger whistles and the wind picks up around the enemies confusing them and causing a short effect where they swing at the wind around them
- Rain of Arrows - Suppression & DOT AOE (Circle targetting template that expands from smaller to larger as you charge it)
YES YES!
Firstly I think it's important to say that I respect your vision for this combat and I do believe that your more tab-centric philosophy works best for an MMO. There are other games if you want to show how pro headshot you are.
CONCERNS
That being said I if you are keeping the action part of the combat away from skill-based elements like pure aim/headshots/range etc then you need to make sure there are plenty of skill-based skills with templates and aiming involved. This way it ensures the game doesn't feel like an FPS but offers the RISK/REWARD good feeling of having to learn to nail your skill shots and mastering your class not just being an everyone can always maximally effective player combat simulator. A lot of games achieve this by having tonnes of cooldowns to manage though to me that is not fun challenge, that is a chore. So finding ways for skills to have more of the skill in them would be great.
IDEAS
Skill ideas for example:
Snipe could you have a chance for it to deal bonus damage of reduce the cooldown if you release it exactly when it reaches full charge (like the start of mario cart lol)
Airstrike might have the circles slightly overlap so there is a double or 1.5x damage in an overlapping ven area.
Rain of Arrows as the classic circle area suppression skill. In this design style should be a circle area template rather than a 'centre it of the targetted unit'
YES YES!
- The modelling looks incredible
CONCERNS
- There really needs to be some dodgeable attacks and effects from these mobs even as a solo player I feel it's such a cheap way to make combat feel engaging. The animations looked good but the design effects of their skills like the charge length and their aggresion felt very non threatening and like they were just totems spitting out unaviodable damage numbers. I really feel that this touches on combat feeling more action based which is the one thing that few other MMO's do right. They focus on player agency when in fact that agency is useless if the mobs are going to hit you regardless and rarely force you to react. The same can be said for melee where typically you just get zerged by mobs with no collision and no ability to stutter them or 'knock them off balance'(not literally but in any sense of breaking their flow or patterns).
- Idle states were a little bland and immersion-breaking.
- Some of the strafing seemed formulaic
-
IDEAS
Animated Idle states
Having them fiddling with their weapons, interacting with one another, walking in small patrol areas or at least shifting their stance and positioning/looking around
GENERAL THOUGHTS
- It's hard to say anything bad about these environments. To massively nitpick I would say that the wave distortion the winds put on the leaves is sometimes a little low res so it makes the leave look like floppy decals. (Fully appreciate that this is likely a technical limitation though).
- Oh and IMO please be careful about leaning too much on the 'Giant epic scale thing in distance' as a worldbuilding technique as there is something about it that can reduce the grandeur of the rest of the regularly sized world. I am all for a giant dinosaur skull here an impending mountain there but the tower in this demo did feel almost ridiculously large.
Thanks for reading and I really hope some if any of this was helpful.
Cheers
I agree with this. There should be weapon skills and class skills. A wizard is not a staff or wand. A wizard is magical power. A ranger is not a bow and shouldn't stop being a ranger if they use a staff.