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Basic Range Weapon Attack discussion
This discussion was created from comments split from: [Feedback Request] Basic Range Weapon Attack Update and Ranger Demo Discussed in Sept. Livestream.
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I just don't understand this. Why do people that go on about action combat being superior, just make stuff up or use the extreme examples about tab-targeting.
PvP tab target is absolutely not what you've said. You obviously CAN dodge in Ashes, there are/will be abilities that you have to aim even with the tab-targeting style. The fact that you're trying to suggest that you just use a rotation in PvP, makes me think you either don't know what you're talking about, or that you are being malicious, just to make action combat look superior in any way possible.
From reacting to enemies, either with movement or abilities (dodges, movement abilities, using certain defensive abilities, heals/barriers, blocks, etc.), to actually trying to catch and kill enemies with cc, debuffs/status effects, etc. it's much more complex and engaging than "TAB-1-2-3-4-5; TAB-1-2-3-4-5, ...you can't dodge/aim.".
I just ask Intrepid to ignore that sort of feedback, as people clearly don't know what they're talking about.
Yeah I guess I should have been more clear. Of course you want game architecture to be as cheat resistant as possible. The code, the net code, whatever. Sorry if my terminology is off.
But the actual gameplay and game systems should not be limited by a fear that someone will cheat. Because as you say, people find ways to cheat at everything. So fear of aimbots should simply not be a factor in whether a game is action combat or tab targeted.
It's simple, in action combat you also do everything you've described, and you still need to pay attention to dodge/aim.
That is just my opinion. For me, after playing MMOs for 18 years, going back to a target system (when I played wow), I don't like it.
But that's not what you argued. You put out an extremely simplified version, saying all you do in pvp is tab-1-2-3-4-5 without dodging or aiming. It's much, much more complex than that.
Anyone that's suggesting tab targeting takes no skill is just being ignorant, that's all. It takes a different type of skill, even though you don't have to aim everything.
Also I don't get the obsession with aiming. If you like aiming, play FPS games. Again, there are abilities that you will have to aim. They even showcased one in the livestream.
As was mentioned in the livestream, there are already certain advantages you can get from the action combat mode like being able to free fire and making target selection a bit more fluid. I like the way ranged combat was presented in the livestream and I'm excited to get my hands on it to try it out.
I respect that you don't like action combat. "Tab-1-2-3-4-5" is just to say that tab-target is a simple system compared to action combat. It's obvious that in PVP you don't do a skill rotation.
In an action combat system you don't need AIM required in FPS.
An FPS does not have everything that an MMO can offer. There are MMO games with action combat. You say: "Also I don't get the obsession with aiming. If you like aiming, play FPS games" . For me it is not correct.
Since I'm guessing you're referring to me as well, let me answer you.
I'm not malding. I just have an issue when someone puts down other combat styles (tab-targeting in this case), by blatantly making stuff up and lying about it, just to make action combat look like an obviously better choice. In reality, for a lot of us, it's simply not better, nor more enjoyable.
Some people just come here bashing on tab-targeting, and praising action-combat like it's universally agreed upon that it's the best thing around. Again, it's not.
Judging by their feedback, they want an action combat game. They don't want a compromise between the 2, they want straight up action combat, and they want to move as far away as possible from tab-targeting.
And that sort of feedback doesn't help anyone really. You want to change their design philosophy to suit your preferences, while ignoring everyone else who actually enjoys tab-targeting gameplay. I think what they've currently showcased is great.
I think many have misunderstood what they wanted to achieve with having an action mode present in game, and going for a hybrid style of combat. They want to make it feel like an action combat game, where you have an aiming reticle that you move with your mouse to aim abilities, where you are free to easily switch targets, or to use abilities without having targets. Where you have dodges, skillshots, etc. You get that action combat feel. What you're not going to get is a game without single target abilities that require targets. Most action-combat games I've seen just rely on a bunch of AoEs, just look at Archer from BDO. You can't have abilities like basic attacks that were shown, in an action combat game. Their hitboxes are simply too small, and they would be extremely easy to dodge or avoid, not to mention the issues with latency, and how hard they would be to land. In GW2, a lot of abilities require you to have targets, and a lot of them act like pure tab-target abilities. Any game trying to be a "hybrid" will basically be tab-target game with action combat elements, and not vice-versa.
That's fair enough, I wouldn't say it's simple, but it is definitely less mechanically intensive I guess. It relies more on strategy and reacting to certain things happening, than being "skillful" in landing abilities, using dodges, etc. It's 2 completely different types of gameplay, which is why it's so hard to actually bridge the gap between the two.
I didn't even get into the issue of latency, especially considering the fact Ashes will have massive scale PvP battles. Action combat would just be impossible to pull off.
And yeah, a third-person shooter, rather than FPS. That's a better comparison I guess.
There shouldn't be any advantages like that, based on which type of combat you pick. Both should have the exact same damage, range, etc. It should be a matter of preference.
I'd argue action is better for close range/melee combat.
I didn't see that many people crying about it, most people were happy it was action 90%.
Right now this is the first people are fully voicing towards action over tab or atleast form of benefits which i agree.
Also anyone trying to say head shots and a mmorpg is not a fps is pretty much being disingenuous. Headshots is not in or not a focus in action games, nor does action combat make it a fps (spoken from people that don't play or understand action or fps games.). That is like saying dragons dogma, devil may cry, elden ring, assassin's creed are fps all the sudden.
I agree. People just want action combat at this point, I have no idea what made them think they were going in that direction.
A lot of them are judging it based on BASIC ATTACKS, like we haven't even seen how the whole class kit plays like, but people judge it immediately, asking for more action combat stuff. The suggestions they come up with just make the game into an action combat game, instead of a hybrid. And I'd much rather have tab-target or hybrid, than action-combat, for numerous reasons.
Like, you can shoot freely at anything you want, without having your target selected. Is it not enough? They won't make this game into an action-combat game, period. It would mean completely getting rid of tab-targeting stuff, and at this point in development, it's just not happening.
Why do you people just keep making stuff up? What you've said in that first paragraph is simply not true at all.
Ranged auto-attacks are literally both tab-target and action at this point, judging by the showcase. Which was the whole goal of hybrid combat. We have both tab-targeting, and action-combat style where you can aim anywhere you want and shoot at anything you want.
Or just you know, have fall off so they can't just aim bot, like a normal arrow would. I thought NW messed up on the guns because it was hit scan and did a good job with bow in terms of having it curve down.
Only person making things up is you, most likely because you are worried about skill level of people that are good with action.
If you are sitting on a field and moving around, one using tab other using action, the tab ill land every hit where action will not. It is clear who would have the advantage in a fight and win one to one and the larger effort required.
Effectively game design wise you are saying you don't' care about effort/balanced required. And trying to put action combat in playing for fun but obsolete in a competitive sense.
Only person making things up here is you.
Then you'll end up like GW2 and no one will use action for anything because auto hits on tab targeting system will trump using aim, if this is the case they should just stop saying it's a hybrid and just say it's a tab targeting system.
Please tell me what did I make up? I'm not the one throwing wild claims and assumptions about other people. But you are doing it yet again, now accusing me of making stuff up, without pointing out what it is that I made up.
Your scenario with 2 people moving around in a field is such an useless example. You're assuming one only uses tab-target abilities, and the other is having to aim everything. That sort of scenario isn't the default, but an extreme. Again, people who use tab-targeting will still have some abilities that they will need to aim, be it ground target skills, or the skills that fire in the direction they're facing. Also, they've mentioned it numerous times, the game isn't going to be balanced around 1v1 play, so get over it.
I really don't get this obsession with action-combat, I really don't. People seem to be obsessing so much over it, that they wont even see if the game is fun or not to play, but if it doesn't have action-combat they immediately think it's awful, boring, and that it doesn't take skill to play.
In GW2 it's absolutely the case where you have action combat mode for immersion and gameplay preference purposes, but "normal" view is the way to go if you want to be competitive, because you can freely move the camera around your character, without changing the direction you're facing/attacking. I have no issues with that. It's a hybrid combat system, you have abilities that you have to aim, and you have abilities that require a target.
If Intrepid manage to make both styles work, then great. If not, then it's gonna look like GW2 or ESO, which I have no problems with.
You need to look at it this way, it's a hybrid combat system, with an action camera mode being optional. It's not, and probably never will be an action-combat game. You can't expect this game to have both full tab target, and full on action-combat at the same time. It's simply a nightmare to design, balance, and make both work at the same time.
Yep. But it still is a hybrid, not a tab-targeting system. I think you're misunderstanding what hybrid actually is, and therefore not managing your expectations correctly. I've touched upon it above.
From what I understood you'd be able to play both and both would be competitive, I just see a tab targeting system with the ability to have a crosshair, so again, if this is the system they want to move forward with, just call it a tab targeting system and be done with it. What I was expecting was a action combat and a tab targeting system where action would get some advantage for having to use skill to aim, and tab targeting would use the typical rng element, I don't think this is a bad trade off but considering this is supposed to be a huge pvp and hard core MMO compared to regular MMOs these days I thought there would be more emphasis on this.
Correct me if I'm wrong, it started out as hybrid, but they were happy to go the tab-target route if it didn't work out. Hybrid doesn't mean have both separate styles at the same time, rather a mix of the 2. Right now I'm not sure where they will end up with it, but I'm also not sure if having 2 separate styles at the same time is easy or even possible to pull off. Again, if it's between tab-target and hybrid, it's totally doable, and it's sort of what they're going with. If it's between tab-target and full action-combat, I'm just not sure it's doable without sacrificing parts of one or the other.
@KaelinTV 's comment is the first well summed up argument for the action combat that I've seen so far. It actually addresses some points, and doesn't focus on "tab-target sucks because no skill" type of argument that a lot of people keep bringing up.
While my preferences are different, in that I favor tab target over action, the concerns put forward are valid. It does seem like the game currently has 2 different systems, with melee being action combat oriented and ranged being tab-target oriented. And honestly, I can't say I mind it too much. When in melee you have freedom to attack in any direction, regardless of the selected target. Ranged on the other hand, needs to lean more into tab-targeting gameplay, with skillshots, ground-target AoEs, etc. It has projectiles, and hopefully those projectiles can be intercepted, blocked, dodged, absorbed by someone or something in front of you, etc. so it's still not a fully tab-target system where you just deal damage to people regardless of anything
The thing you've mentioned with running away while shooting at the target, is it not fixable by just having to face the target in order to hit them (in tab-target mode)? Additionally slowing down the character while casting could also be an additional solution to that.
I do disagree that active blocking can't be done in tab-targeting style games. Currently in Ashes, I feel like you absolutely could do so. They did say that those arrows are projectiles, so they're blockable.
It really is hard to find the right balance.
And hey, look what a quick trip to wiki does.
Targeting modes are able to be achieved through choice of skills/abilities.[6][7][1]
It may not be possible to be able to fully spec into just action or tab targeted skills. There might be a 75% cap on choosing skills from any one type.[1]
Different ranks of the same skill can change the skill from tab to action targeted or vice-versa.[8]
The action camera is tied to the to player's reticle. There will likely be a hotkey that when held down will allow free camera movement.[9]
In future the user will have the ability to choose from different reticle appearances.[10]
Action oriented and tab oriented versions of skills will have different characteristics. Variables will change based on which version is chosen.[11]
Damage.[11]
Charge up time.[11]
CC effects.[11]
Cooldown.[12]
Energy consumption.[12]
Cost to spec.[12]
Attack range will likely remain the same; as it is driven by the weapon or skill itself.[13]
As an example: Let's say you're playing a ranged class. You could have an action-oriented power shot in your skill tree or you could have a single target power shot that ramps up and does more damage. [11] – Steven Sharif
Now keep in mind some of this was 4 years ago, so things could be very different right now. But it answers some of the concerns that people have.
You are making up misconceptions of how action and tab combat work, and trying to discredit the most basic and common sense of scenarios trying to overly confuse it because logically you are in the wrong.
You talking about 1v1 has absolutely nothing to do with what people are talking about, again you are making things up that make no sense because you are in the wrong again and can't logically say in a way that makes sense to defend one system being superior than the other in term of extreme ease of use.
I see you bring up GWs, like ive said before you don't care about balance, you care that people can't use skill against you and you can have a easy time with tab style combat with all your attacks land and there for forcing people to use tab to be competitive.
That isn't hybrid, that is simply action combat being there for "fun" for some people. It isn't tab and action together because the focus will always be tab and having people more use to using that because its effective and very easy.
Again you don't get it because you don't care about skill in a game, you only care about the game being as easy for you as possible. Eve if you won't admit it, that s simply the case.
SIMPLY PUT
Having all you attacks hit the target without aiming is easy (tab target) , having to use soft lock adds a skill element and reducing effectiveness of kiting from a balance stand point as well.
As it is now with the auto attack, tab is broken in how effective it is compared to action camera and reducing the skill ceiling of players as there is no reason to use action.
To argue someone that has to put more effort into something shouldn't be rewarded in those that use action camera is pretty silly. Even more so when effort required goes from 10% (tab) to like 50-70% (action).
So you are saying I don't want people to get buffs for putting more effort and skill into the game because they are better than me.
It's because of this level of absolute Stupidity that there is no chance intrepid would ever go action.
Get this dude in a balanced arena with equal gear in Archeage or any other decent tab target game against a good player I guarantee 100% he would get absolutely destroyed. Ask this dude in what tab game he was ever rank 1 since there is no skill.
The stupidity of thinking there is no skill in tab target is beyond me, this is the kind of player that all feedback should be 100% ignored.
Quoting the man himself "Ashes won't be for everyone" and all the action andies can keep crying because as we were told once again yesterday, Ashes leans more to tab target and won't ever be an action game. Go play New World or any other aim bot infested shit show of a game.
PS: I have over 4k hours in BDO playing a perma red ninja, and prob a lot more than that in Tera, RaiderZ, C9 and the list goes on. Most people I see talk shit about tab - are not only are bad in tab but suck in action as well.
You are a rly rly rly stubborn and unteachable kind of human beeing. As i would like to quote you from older posts "the game is not for everbody." If you so desperately wanna compare your aiming skill with other ppl why dont you play a fps game? But please dont try to destroy a promissing MMO with your limited thoughts. Stop trolling. Thanks alot...
I'm sorry, I must be living in a parallel universe, or having a fever dream.
You were the one who brought up 1v1s", not me. So if it has nothing to do with what people are talking about, maybe don't bring it up?
Again, you keep repeating stuff like "you care that people can't use skill against you".
I've NEVER said anything like that. That's not what I think either, if you're somehow trying to read my mind. I've explained why tab-targeting isn't a boring skill-less thing that you keep insisting it is. That's it.
You keep going on about skill. I don't get it really. "you only care about the game being as easy for you as possible" - You keep making constant false assumptions, lies, and attacks against me, because I prefer a certain style of combat. You've done the same a few months ago when we had a similar discussion in another thread. You did nothing but falsely accuse me of something I never said, and something I don't believe in.
There's no point in responding to you, seeing that you completely twist what I say, completely ignore what I say, and just straight up make false assumptions and allegations against me.
If Intrepid finds a way to satisfy your needs, without sacrificing tab-targeting gameplay (because currently I'm a massive fan of how it looks), then I'm all for it.
I enjoy both tab and action combat in games. Action obviously takes more coordination and reaction to play, but that doesn't mean it is better in every aspect because of that. In MMOs, abilities are better suited for action based attacks, while basic "filler" attacks are better suited for tab targeting. All while sprinkling in a few abilities that are tab target simply because they work well that way. An MMO doesn't need to play like a shooter, supporting headshots and super fast basic attack focused action combat, especially seeing as basic ranged action attacks would likely have a significant advantage over basic melee action attacks. If you want this, there is a game called New World that you will love, no need to make a copy paste of their combat for this MMO, I personally thought their full action combat system was an imbalanced disaster, mainly due to the ranged action combat absolutely blowing away the melee options (running around 1-shotting people with headshots gets boring).
So as I have said in a previous comment, as long as they provide a good variety of action combat abilities, it is entirely desirable to have basic ranged attacks be implemented the way they currently are in the showcase leaning more towards tab targeting.
Wrong. Action Combat doesnt take more reaction to play than tab combat. thats a false statement.
I agree with you on mostly everything else
I'd argue it does, but that doesn't mean that tab targeting doesn't require a great deal of reaction as well, it definitely does for timing abilities.
This comment is actually stupid lmfao. You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available. Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time.
Using hacks as a reason to not have gameplay is also up there is one of the most stupid comments you can make in gaming. As any element of a game can be hacked and changed, the fact you are trying to reference this as a point is actually stupid as shit. So when hackers abuse certain skill effects, or effect life skilling in some way in the future that needs to also be removed from the game. Use your head please atleast a little.
4k hours is nothing on bdo is nothing sorry to say lmao, also means nothing to the conversation.
It is common knowledge action takes more skill than tab, it is honestly just naïve of you to think skill queing and automatically hitting your target takes more skill then action.
Anyone with half a brain knows action adds another element of skill and skill cap to the game, that will go beyond TAB target in difficulty easily any day of the month. And that is why action combat needs some balance so the difficultly it scaled to reasonable levels over impossible levels.
Your comment is the type of comment that should not be listened to, they are well versed and aware of tab target combat. They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat and making sure content is balanced based on skill put in so people that are wiling to play action have some benefits for the added difficulty of actually aiming their skills then automatically hitting targets lmao.
You honestly sound like someone that is bad in action. Exactly why you don't want a benefit for additional inputs needed lmao.
I've already said the solution, IS has said in the past and others have said it. If you put more EFFORT into something you need to be REWARDED for that effort. Else you are adding something in people won't use and that means it isn't hybrid.
IE if you need to track someone and shoot spots and look in their direction, comapred to full spriting back and mashing attak without looking at them. It is clear AS DAMN DAY. Which is more easily and most power.
Landing every hit, seeing more surrounding easier, and MAKING KITING EXTREMELY EASY. Which means if it also gets nerfed you are giving action combat a harder time because you are balanced around tab combat when it is suppose to be hybrid.
Why is that so damn hard to understand. I don't care you are defensive about tab combat, it doesn't matter action still takes more effort it doesn't matter how much skill you think is involved with TAB, action is just more levels always. And if there is no balance around needing more effort things become obsolete GW as a perfect example.
These points on people yelling TAB TAKES SKILL does not MATTER, what matters is balance of how much a player puts in and it is more with action.
Does that mean every action skill needs to do 2* more dmg no one has said that, but there needs to be design reasons and testing on dmg. If you are dealing 7* dmg on tab and kiting so no one can ever hit you easily that is a problem. People have their head in the sand because they want a tab target mmorpg, and want anyone using action combat int he game to be nerfed.
Sorry, I just have to reply while I'm still here.
In their example, the PvP would absolutely NOT rely on rotations alone. "You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available." - Again, NOBODY said that, you are making up arguments to suit your agenda. You mention rotations, and then you try to attack it, acting like the other person brought that argument up. Again, you keep falsely assuming stuff, you keep falsely accusing people. Just stop.
"Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time."
This is simply false. If you are really making that argument. the same argument could be used for action combat as well. You'll just need to teach your grandma to use a mouse as well to aim abilities. It's a really stupid argument.
Action takes different kind of skill compared to tab. Sure action does require more mechanical skill, I'll give you that.
Ah yes there we go. "They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat" - I think you're just mad that this game isn't turning out into what you thought it would be. So many people are coming here whining about tab-targeting, but combat was never the main selling point of this game, especially not the action combat.
Not even regarding the skill aspect of either system. Which types of MMOs have been the most fun? In my experience the best MMOs have either been tab target or a hybrid with lean more towards tab target. This could be chalked up to opinion, but generally I have yet to experience an action combat MMO that has fluid, and fun gameplay, especially in regards to PVP