Only reason people are suggesting auto attacks be tab target only because they want to remove skill elements from the game because other players will be better than them. And use gear or skill when it comes to beating someone
It's because of this level of absolute Stupidity that there is no chance intrepid would ever go action.
Get this dude in a balanced arena with equal gear in Archeage or any other decent tab target game against a good player I guarantee 100% he would get absolutely destroyed. Ask this dude in what tab game he was ever rank 1 since there is no skill.
The stupidity of thinking there is no skill in tab target is beyond me, this is the kind of player that all feedback should be 100% ignored.
Quoting the man himself "Ashes won't be for everyone" and all the action andies can keep crying because as we were told once again yesterday, Ashes leans more to tab target and won't ever be an action game. Go play New World or any other aim bot infested shit show of a game.
PS: I have over 4k hours in BDO playing a perma red ninja, and prob a lot more than that in Tera, RaiderZ, C9 and the list goes on. Most people I see talk shit about tab - are not only are bad in tab but suck in action as well.
This comment is actually stupid lmfao. You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available. Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time.
Using hacks as a reason to not have gameplay is also up there is one of the most stupid comments you can make in gaming. As any element of a game can be hacked and changed, the fact you are trying to reference this as a point is actually stupid as shit. So when hackers abuse certain skill effects, or effect life skilling in some way in the future that needs to also be removed from the game. Use your head please atleast a little.
4k hours is nothing on bdo is nothing sorry to say lmao, also means nothing to the conversation.
It is common knowledge action takes more skill than tab, it is honestly just naïve of you to think skill queing and automatically hitting your target takes more skill then action.
Anyone with half a brain knows action adds another element of skill and skill cap to the game, that will go beyond TAB target in difficulty easily any day of the month. And that is why action combat needs some balance so the difficultly it scaled to reasonable levels over impossible levels.
Your comment is the type of comment that should not be listened to, they are well versed and aware of tab target combat. They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat and making sure content is balanced based on skill put in so people that are wiling to play action have some benefits for the added difficulty of actually aiming their skills then automatically hitting targets lmao.
You honestly sound like someone that is bad in action. Exactly why you don't want a benefit for additional inputs needed lmao.
Not even regarding the skill aspect of either system. Which types of MMOs have been the most fun? In my experience the best MMOs have either been tab target or a hybrid with lean more towards tab target. This could be chalked up to opinion, but generally I have yet to experience an action combat MMO that has fluid, and fun gameplay, especially in regards to PVP
There is nothing wrong with it, but people that say if you are using a auto attack that is by default more difficult in action combat can't have some sort of fair buff is insane to me.
They start to say this isn't a FPS, tab and action camera take the same amount of effort, or any other weird stuff and go crazy about hearing a buff for additional effort or reducing INSANE kiting potential for range not needing to face your target.
I never said remove tab combat, I've simply said balance for effort needed. And some of these posters are going crazy for people that say if this takes more effort i should get a buff like they have committed some grand sin for stating the obvious.
I wouldn't be against a slight flat damage increase for ranged action combat, but I would still be very against any sort of headshot mechanics. Melee action combat is whatever, it works alright in MMOs. But action range combat in MMOs tends to become an overpowered meta. To me, it doesn't matter what sort of skill it requires, in the end what matters is the games design balance, and ranged action combat tends to result in an imbalance in MMORPGs.
I don't care about head shot, but a damage and movement speed increase should be a thing. More effort needs a reward. Having a reward doesn't mean you will always be doing more damage unless you are skilled enough.
IE using tab combat and landing all hits give you that 100% damage.
Using action and landing half your hits only gives you 65%-75% damage. Landing all hits gives 115%-125% damage. That doesn't mean you will be consistent landing every single hit all the time.
If kiting seems to strong and people can't do anything there should be a speed nerf that applies to tab, if tab ones are dealing that much dmg while always avoiding most dmg. And keeping he 105 speed for when you are in action since their kiting isn't as strong as a tab user. But allowing that reason to push for skilled players in short or longer and large burst.
who in the world lands only 50% of their shots with the bow weappon in new world? (its per hit dmg is rediculously overtuned btw)
Maybe you mean 50% of head shots?
For your concern: I used NW as an Excample since we are talking about action MMOs
Argue more like this: The average player lands about 80 to 90% of headshots in an action MMO where combat is slower than in fps games. So devs should probably lower crit dmg with action mode on, since the overall dmgoutput will be too good compared to tab combat.
I sucked at muskets in New World, so I didn't land most of my shots, also didn't main it either tbh, went mage which still took aim and leading for heavy and light attacks. I'm not saying this game needs headshots but if we are trying to find a balance then I think tab needs to have more rng elements to it vs action.
but there was nothing better than out playing your opponent in that game and absolutely destroying them because you were just mechanically better than them or launching a fireball 100 yards away and nailing someone because you aimed it. And I played a lot of New World, over 100 wars.
Thats not a good thing. I dont want a FPS headshot system in an mmorpg.
but there was nothing better than out playing your opponent in that game and absolutely destroying them because you were just mechanically better than them or launching a fireball 100 yards away and nailing someone because you aimed it. And I played a lot of New World, over 100 wars.
Thats not a good thing. I dont want a FPS headshot system in an mmorpg.
Doesn't need to be head shots, and again this is a bow, there can be drop off so it isn't hit scan and arrow sink with range. I'm not advocating for NWs musket, trust me I played mage and got shot constantly by 3 of those mofos in OPR and with no drop in damage and hit scan it was annoying. But we can definitely make it so that arrows, like the fireball I was talking about requires skill from a distance.
I sucked at muskets in New World, so I didn't land most of my shots, also didn't main it either tbh, went mage which still took aim and leading for heavy and light attacks. I'm not saying this game needs headshots but if we are trying to find a balance then I think tab needs to have more rng elements to it vs action.
Sorry to hear, that you suck at musket in NW. That said consider that you dont represent the average player with this that played the weappon for a while and got the hang of it.
I sucked at muskets in New World, so I didn't land most of my shots, also didn't main it either tbh, went mage which still took aim and leading for heavy and light attacks. I'm not saying this game needs headshots but if we are trying to find a balance then I think tab needs to have more rng elements to it vs action.
Sorry to hear, that you suck at musket in NW. That said consider that you dont represent the average player with this that played the weappon for a while and got the hang of it.
To be fair I never played it much either so I am, in no way a good representation of a musket, mage however I was very good at. Either way I'm trying to find a middle ground we can take where we can get some true action combat but not have people who like tab thinking it's an FPS.
Please don't listen to the people asking you to make the action-combat "aimed" shots do more damage or have more range or have an extra chance to critical hit. That turns it from an alternative to tab-target into a mandatory playstyle. Most people (myself included) will not want to use whichever mode is objectively worse in terms of damage output. You won't make everyone happy, but either go all-in and make it action only or keep the two mode system the same in terms of raw damage.
As was mentioned in the livestream, there are already certain advantages you can get from the action combat mode like being able to free fire and making target selection a bit more fluid. I like the way ranged combat was presented in the livestream and I'm excited to get my hands on it to try it out.
Can we stop pretending like using free firing is some big deal? You'll maybe use it less than 1% of the time if you're being competitive.
It's also strange to see tab target players complaining about "being forced" to play action sometimes in a supposedly hybrid system. I HAVE to play tab target given the current information, I'm forced to do it. At least with giving a damage % increase to using action combat you're giving people a reason to use action. We're acting like people are going to be hitting shots above 70% of the time with action combat free firing. You won't, play New World for a bit with bow. Free firing needs to have a damage bonus in PvP or if people see you using it they'll kick you out of their group.
Please don't listen to the people asking you to make the action-combat "aimed" shots do more damage or have more range or have an extra chance to critical hit. That turns it from an alternative to tab-target into a mandatory playstyle. Most people (myself included) will not want to use whichever mode is objectively worse in terms of damage output. You won't make everyone happy, but either go all-in and make it action only or keep the two mode system the same in terms of raw damage.
As was mentioned in the livestream, there are already certain advantages you can get from the action combat mode like being able to free fire and making target selection a bit more fluid. I like the way ranged combat was presented in the livestream and I'm excited to get my hands on it to try it out.
Can we stop pretending like using free firing is some big deal? You'll maybe use it less than 1% of the time if you're being competitive.
It's also strange to see tab target players complaining about "being forced" to play action sometimes in a supposedly hybrid system. I HAVE to play tab target given the current information, I'm forced to do it. At least with giving a damage % increase to using action combat you're giving people a reason to use action. We're acting like people are going to be hitting shots above 70% of the time with action combat free firing. You won't, play New World for a bit with bow. Free firing needs to have a damage bonus in PvP or if people see you using it they'll kick you out of their group.
Well ItsmeToki thinks peopel land head shots 80-90% of the time and land every shot on people. Im wondering where these people are in shooters though landing headshots like that lol.
Honestly i don't care about head shots it doesn't need to be like that, it can simply be like a action game with soft lock. People just yell and scream for extremes and use the worst examples possible to try and say one game will be like the worst ever. Which is just being disingenuous.
This comment is actually stupid lmfao. You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available. Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time.
Using hacks as a reason to not have gameplay is also up there is one of the most stupid comments you can make in gaming. As any element of a game can be hacked and changed, the fact you are trying to reference this as a point is actually stupid as shit. So when hackers abuse certain skill effects, or effect life skilling in some way in the future that needs to also be removed from the game. Use your head please atleast a little.
4k hours is nothing on bdo is nothing sorry to say lmao, also means nothing to the conversation.
It is common knowledge action takes more skill than tab, it is honestly just naïve of you to think skill queing and automatically hitting your target takes more skill then action.
Anyone with half a brain knows action adds another element of skill and skill cap to the game, that will go beyond TAB target in difficulty easily any day of the month. And that is why action combat needs some balance so the difficultly it scaled to reasonable levels over impossible levels.
Your comment is the type of comment that should not be listened to, they are well versed and aware of tab target combat. They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat and making sure content is balanced based on skill put in so people that are wiling to play action have some benefits for the added difficulty of actually aiming their skills then automatically hitting targets lmao.
You honestly sound like someone that is bad in action. Exactly why you don't want a benefit for additional inputs needed lmao.
Sorry, I just have to reply while I'm still here.
In their example, the PvP would absolutely NOT rely on rotations alone. "You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available." - Again, NOBODY said that, you are making up arguments to suit your agenda. You mention rotations, and then you try to attack it, acting like the other person brought that argument up. Again, you keep falsely assuming stuff, you keep falsely accusing people. Just stop.
"Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time."
This is simply false. If you are really making that argument. the same argument could be used for action combat as well. You'll just need to teach your grandma to use a mouse as well to aim abilities. It's a really stupid argument.
Action takes different kind of skill compared to tab. Sure action does require more mechanical skill, I'll give you that.
Ah yes there we go. "They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat" - I think you're just mad that this game isn't turning out into what you thought it would be. So many people are coming here whining about tab-targeting, but combat was never the main selling point of this game, especially not the action combat.
You honestly don't get it, action does not take a different kind of skill.
In a mmorpg that is tab you use your skill and it hits the target if yuo are in line of sight.
In action if you use your skill it works no different than tab for just that. But you can't just use your skill you need to prediction motions, you need to dodge their attacks, you need to track them (like your camera needs to face them and not attack off screen) and more.
ACTION has more levels and there for has a lot more you need to do, and that is simply just using one SKILL. You need to consistent do that as you use multiple skills or your rotations .
You saying they are different skills is blatantly wrong, action simply ADDS more layers of skill difficulty to combat.
It definitely uses different skills lol. Tab elements still exist and Action ADDS skill requirements.
If people suffer the fact then let them. Useless gas lighting lmao
It makes abilities deeper and opens up room for more varied abilities as well.
Please don't listen to the people asking you to make the action-combat "aimed" shots do more damage or have more range or have an extra chance to critical hit. That turns it from an alternative to tab-target into a mandatory playstyle. Most people (myself included) will not want to use whichever mode is objectively worse in terms of damage output. You won't make everyone happy, but either go all-in and make it action only or keep the two mode system the same in terms of raw damage.
As was mentioned in the livestream, there are already certain advantages you can get from the action combat mode like being able to free fire and making target selection a bit more fluid. I like the way ranged combat was presented in the livestream and I'm excited to get my hands on it to try it out.
Yeah, I definitely don't want a system where, in worst case scenario, the best way of going about combat is switching between tab targeting and reticle camera mode every few seconds.
This comment is actually stupid lmfao. You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available. Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time.
Using hacks as a reason to not have gameplay is also up there is one of the most stupid comments you can make in gaming. As any element of a game can be hacked and changed, the fact you are trying to reference this as a point is actually stupid as shit. So when hackers abuse certain skill effects, or effect life skilling in some way in the future that needs to also be removed from the game. Use your head please atleast a little.
4k hours is nothing on bdo is nothing sorry to say lmao, also means nothing to the conversation.
It is common knowledge action takes more skill than tab, it is honestly just naïve of you to think skill queing and automatically hitting your target takes more skill then action.
Anyone with half a brain knows action adds another element of skill and skill cap to the game, that will go beyond TAB target in difficulty easily any day of the month. And that is why action combat needs some balance so the difficultly it scaled to reasonable levels over impossible levels.
Your comment is the type of comment that should not be listened to, they are well versed and aware of tab target combat. They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat and making sure content is balanced based on skill put in so people that are wiling to play action have some benefits for the added difficulty of actually aiming their skills then automatically hitting targets lmao.
You honestly sound like someone that is bad in action. Exactly why you don't want a benefit for additional inputs needed lmao.
Sorry, I just have to reply while I'm still here.
In their example, the PvP would absolutely NOT rely on rotations alone. "You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available." - Again, NOBODY said that, you are making up arguments to suit your agenda. You mention rotations, and then you try to attack it, acting like the other person brought that argument up. Again, you keep falsely assuming stuff, you keep falsely accusing people. Just stop.
"Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time."
This is simply false. If you are really making that argument. the same argument could be used for action combat as well. You'll just need to teach your grandma to use a mouse as well to aim abilities. It's a really stupid argument.
Action takes different kind of skill compared to tab. Sure action does require more mechanical skill, I'll give you that.
Ah yes there we go. "They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat" - I think you're just mad that this game isn't turning out into what you thought it would be. So many people are coming here whining about tab-targeting, but combat was never the main selling point of this game, especially not the action combat.
You honestly don't get it, action does not take a different kind of skill.
In a mmorpg that is tab you use your skill and it hits the target if yuo are in line of sight.
In action if you use your skill it works no different than tab for just that. But you can't just use your skill you need to prediction motions, you need to dodge their attacks, you need to track them (like your camera needs to face them and not attack off screen) and more.
ACTION has more levels and there for has a lot more you need to do, and that is simply just using one SKILL. You need to consistent do that as you use multiple skills or your rotations .
You saying they are different skills is blatantly wrong, action simply ADDS more layers of skill difficulty to combat.
It definitely uses different skills lol. Tab elements still exist and Action ADDS skill requirements.
If people suffer the fact then let them. Useless gas lighting lmao
It doesn't use different skills. you press 1 to attack on both action and tab. By pressing one you attack...
In tab you do not need to track or aim towards your target and deal with the skill / issues that come with that.
In action you need to track, predict movements, etc when you press one to make sure the attack lands.
So they are bot the same but action has more layers to what you need to do, therefor making it more difficult and adding a skill curve to it.
It is a bit crazy a tab player would be yelling about basic attacks because you don't use that in a tab target game....Why would you do a move that does no damage pretty much, answer is you don't you use your 50 skills on your bar (which is also ridiculous)
Talking spesifically about the bow and ranger archetype here.
To me action means being able to freefire any time, having the ability to lead my shots and the projectiles go where i'm aiming and not auto hone to the target that is nearest to my reticle and not this current reticle mouseover tab style. That is the playstyle i'm looking for as an action player and it makes me feel like i'm playing my character and not just pressing buttons as a character if that makes any sense.
Few ideas i came up with.
1. Since they are already playing around with the idea of having a hold to increase dmg and release basic attack for the bow, why not make that action only. This way there would be more of a risk and reward for action.
2. have your normal basic attack as tab target as it is now, but holding right click changes to action mode where you have the hold and release for extra damage (this would probably work better if they removed the full tab mode, but went with the reticle mode instead where you could also use tab and had soft lock as someone has suggested)
3. Since hard cc is supposed to be action only ''current mouseover tab'' few ranger abilities could be these if they went with my definition of action
Freeze Arrow = Your next arrow slows target by % (Tab) if fully charged (action) freezes the target for x seconds.
Quick Shot = Your next arrow Increases DMG done to the target by % for x seconds (3 charges)
Snipe = Increases the range of your next arrow and removes damage fall off
Cone Shot = Your next attack releases multiple arrows in a cone formation infront of you (short range tab) if fully charged increases range by %
Rapidfire = Increases your rate of fire by %
Abilities like these would be usable with both tab and action and then add mobility abilities, traps and such
Please don't listen to the people asking you to make the action-combat "aimed" shots do more damage or have more range or have an extra chance to critical hit. That turns it from an alternative to tab-target into a mandatory playstyle. Most people (myself included) will not want to use whichever mode is objectively worse in terms of damage output. You won't make everyone happy, but either go all-in and make it action only or keep the two mode system the same in terms of raw damage.
As was mentioned in the livestream, there are already certain advantages you can get from the action combat mode like being able to free fire and making target selection a bit more fluid. I like the way ranged combat was presented in the livestream and I'm excited to get my hands on it to try it out.
Yeah, I definitely don't want a system where, in worst case scenario, the best way of going about combat is switching between tab targeting and reticle camera mode every few seconds.
Sounds like fun though.
I can imagine switching camera modes every few seconds could be tedious though, assuming your screen isn't (always) centered on your main target when you're in the tab targeting camera mode. They'd have to make it not tedious.
To me action means being able to freefire any time, having the ability to lead my shots and the projectiles go where i'm aiming and not auto hone to the target that is nearest to my reticle and not this current reticle mouseover tab style. That is the playstyle i'm looking for as an action player and it makes me feel like i'm playing my character and not just pressing buttons as a character if that makes any sense.
In an FPS where the TTK is between 1-7s, and head-shots & 1-shots exist - totally agree. But in Ashes where the planned TTK is 30-60s, shots can be blocked by the environment, and ranged weapons have minimum distances, a pure action system will set you up to be destroyed by melee.
Combat skill in Ashes isn’t going to be simply ‘I can aim better than you’, it’s going to require using the environment to your advantage, executing good ambushes, appropriate positioning & distancing, and weaving all your abilities (be they action or tab) better than your opponent to defeat them.
This comment is actually stupid lmfao. You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available. Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time.
Using hacks as a reason to not have gameplay is also up there is one of the most stupid comments you can make in gaming. As any element of a game can be hacked and changed, the fact you are trying to reference this as a point is actually stupid as shit. So when hackers abuse certain skill effects, or effect life skilling in some way in the future that needs to also be removed from the game. Use your head please atleast a little.
4k hours is nothing on bdo is nothing sorry to say lmao, also means nothing to the conversation.
It is common knowledge action takes more skill than tab, it is honestly just naïve of you to think skill queing and automatically hitting your target takes more skill then action.
Anyone with half a brain knows action adds another element of skill and skill cap to the game, that will go beyond TAB target in difficulty easily any day of the month. And that is why action combat needs some balance so the difficultly it scaled to reasonable levels over impossible levels.
Your comment is the type of comment that should not be listened to, they are well versed and aware of tab target combat. They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat and making sure content is balanced based on skill put in so people that are wiling to play action have some benefits for the added difficulty of actually aiming their skills then automatically hitting targets lmao.
You honestly sound like someone that is bad in action. Exactly why you don't want a benefit for additional inputs needed lmao.
Sorry, I just have to reply while I'm still here.
In their example, the PvP would absolutely NOT rely on rotations alone. "You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available." - Again, NOBODY said that, you are making up arguments to suit your agenda. You mention rotations, and then you try to attack it, acting like the other person brought that argument up. Again, you keep falsely assuming stuff, you keep falsely accusing people. Just stop.
"Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time."
This is simply false. If you are really making that argument. the same argument could be used for action combat as well. You'll just need to teach your grandma to use a mouse as well to aim abilities. It's a really stupid argument.
Action takes different kind of skill compared to tab. Sure action does require more mechanical skill, I'll give you that.
Ah yes there we go. "They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat" - I think you're just mad that this game isn't turning out into what you thought it would be. So many people are coming here whining about tab-targeting, but combat was never the main selling point of this game, especially not the action combat.
You honestly don't get it, action does not take a different kind of skill.
In a mmorpg that is tab you use your skill and it hits the target if yuo are in line of sight.
In action if you use your skill it works no different than tab for just that. But you can't just use your skill you need to prediction motions, you need to dodge their attacks, you need to track them (like your camera needs to face them and not attack off screen) and more.
ACTION has more levels and there for has a lot more you need to do, and that is simply just using one SKILL. You need to consistent do that as you use multiple skills or your rotations .
You saying they are different skills is blatantly wrong, action simply ADDS more layers of skill difficulty to combat.
It definitely uses different skills lol. Tab elements still exist and Action ADDS skill requirements.
If people suffer the fact then let them. Useless gas lighting lmao
It doesn't use different skills. you press 1 to attack on both action and tab. By pressing one you attack...
In tab you do not need to track or aim towards your target and deal with the skill / issues that come with that.
In action you need to track, predict movements, etc when you press one to make sure the attack lands.
So they are bot the same but action has more layers to what you need to do, therefor making it more difficult and adding a skill curve to it.
It is a bit crazy a tab player would be yelling about basic attacks because you don't use that in a tab target game....Why would you do a move that does no damage pretty much, answer is you don't you use your 50 skills on your bar (which is also ridiculous)
I agree that personal skill should be rewarded.
iccer makes no sense; pretends to be diplomatic but just wants to castrate action combat. Should probably blacklist him lmao
Tab technically requires a 180 hemisphere and turning towards someone hopping over you, which is somewhat reliant on prediction and positioning. . . so I guess it's the same . . .
. . .but I think you're giving iccer too much credit. He doesn't give a shit what you think LOL he's just a selfish tab crab that refuses to get good at anything or let others be rewarded for their somewhat physical skill in a video game. This is the MMO playerbase selfishness.
This comment is actually stupid lmfao. You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available. Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time.
Using hacks as a reason to not have gameplay is also up there is one of the most stupid comments you can make in gaming. As any element of a game can be hacked and changed, the fact you are trying to reference this as a point is actually stupid as shit. So when hackers abuse certain skill effects, or effect life skilling in some way in the future that needs to also be removed from the game. Use your head please atleast a little.
4k hours is nothing on bdo is nothing sorry to say lmao, also means nothing to the conversation.
It is common knowledge action takes more skill than tab, it is honestly just naïve of you to think skill queing and automatically hitting your target takes more skill then action.
Anyone with half a brain knows action adds another element of skill and skill cap to the game, that will go beyond TAB target in difficulty easily any day of the month. And that is why action combat needs some balance so the difficultly it scaled to reasonable levels over impossible levels.
Your comment is the type of comment that should not be listened to, they are well versed and aware of tab target combat. They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat and making sure content is balanced based on skill put in so people that are wiling to play action have some benefits for the added difficulty of actually aiming their skills then automatically hitting targets lmao.
You honestly sound like someone that is bad in action. Exactly why you don't want a benefit for additional inputs needed lmao.
Sorry, I just have to reply while I'm still here.
In their example, the PvP would absolutely NOT rely on rotations alone. "You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available." - Again, NOBODY said that, you are making up arguments to suit your agenda. You mention rotations, and then you try to attack it, acting like the other person brought that argument up. Again, you keep falsely assuming stuff, you keep falsely accusing people. Just stop.
"Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time."
This is simply false. If you are really making that argument. the same argument could be used for action combat as well. You'll just need to teach your grandma to use a mouse as well to aim abilities. It's a really stupid argument.
Action takes different kind of skill compared to tab. Sure action does require more mechanical skill, I'll give you that.
Ah yes there we go. "They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat" - I think you're just mad that this game isn't turning out into what you thought it would be. So many people are coming here whining about tab-targeting, but combat was never the main selling point of this game, especially not the action combat.
Any part of the game can be a selling point. Combat in a game that is full of combat and Civ vs Civ war is a huge selling point (or the combat is shit and that appeal is gone).
Many people are waiting for massively multiplayer games to have great combat. Many people play combat games.
Not sure how you could think combat in an MMO isn't very important.
You're delusional and dishonest. You don't want action combat to offer any reward to skill so that you can. . . be more effective in combat???? So you don't lose to others in combat?????
What's the appeal of Ashes to you? LMAO
You full blown want to fight others but don't want to lose and don't want to improve either. LOL
To me action means being able to freefire any time, having the ability to lead my shots and the projectiles go where i'm aiming and not auto hone to the target that is nearest to my reticle and not this current reticle mouseover tab style. That is the playstyle i'm looking for as an action player and it makes me feel like i'm playing my character and not just pressing buttons as a character if that makes any sense.
In an FPS where the TTK is between 1-7s, and head-shots & 1-shots exist - totally agree. But in Ashes where the planned TTK is 30-60s, shots can be blocked by the environment, and ranged weapons have minimum distances, a pure action system will set you up to be destroyed by melee.
Combat skill in Ashes isn’t going to be simply ‘I can aim better than you’, it’s going to require using the environment to your advantage, executing good ambushes, appropriate positioning & distancing, and weaving all your abilities (be they action or tab) better than your opponent to defeat them.
Time to Kill has been shown to be a lot lower than 30 seconds. If one misses their abilities, sure. If they all hit, it's way below 30 seconds. And they're throwing on all this mobility and AoE for some reason. . . lol
There is only 1 Ranger; out of 8 classes. If FPS players want their 'class' let them have it.
Just as Warrior in WoW can use Engineer items like a gun and explosives, everyone else can situationally use a bow or gun. . . or a Melee as well.
But let the class have its own kind of "hybrid combat". Reward those that actually like FPS games LOL instead of saying "there's room for you here with our perfectly designated shooter class but GET THE FUCK OUT" like jesus man just let the people live out the Archetype.
To me action means being able to freefire any time, having the ability to lead my shots and the projectiles go where i'm aiming and not auto hone to the target that is nearest to my reticle and not this current reticle mouseover tab style. That is the playstyle i'm looking for as an action player and it makes me feel like i'm playing my character and not just pressing buttons as a character if that makes any sense.
In an FPS where the TTK is between 1-7s, and head-shots & 1-shots exist - totally agree. But in Ashes where the planned TTK is 30-60s, shots can be blocked by the environment, and ranged weapons have minimum distances, a pure action system will set you up to be destroyed by melee.
Combat skill in Ashes isn’t going to be simply ‘I can aim better than you’, it’s going to require using the environment to your advantage, executing good ambushes, appropriate positioning & distancing, and weaving all your abilities (be they action or tab) better than your opponent to defeat them.
4:50 Timestamp isn't a direct point to what I'm saying, but rather, framing.
That fight is two rangers vs a 'melee Bard' and a Mage. The Ranger gets hit by the Mage's Ult (basically Black Hole) and it flows from there. The speed of backpedaling and the overall concept of 'what is important to target' matters much more than the TTK since the relationship to 'how many times you can use a skill in a normal fight' is more important than 'how quickly does your opponent die'.
I won't mind if Ashes melee have the number of gap-closers and roots required to take out a Tab Target Ranger, since I enjoy BDO's combat, but it's unlikely that even in pure action, even with the damage tuned for hitting stationary bosses, that this would be a problem.
Isn't the intention moreso that Rangers change to melee weapons once the melee-focused player gets in (as in, all your escapes have been used)? And relies on their advantage up until that point to win? I personally will be fairly disappointed if that's not the case (though I can't speak to balance overall, I bet I wouldn't like it either).
Please don't listen to the people asking you to make the action-combat "aimed" shots do more damage or have more range or have an extra chance to critical hit. That turns it from an alternative to tab-target into a mandatory playstyle. Most people (myself included) will not want to use whichever mode is objectively worse in terms of damage output. You won't make everyone happy, but either go all-in and make it action only or keep the two mode system the same in terms of raw damage.
As was mentioned in the livestream, there are already certain advantages you can get from the action combat mode like being able to free fire and making target selection a bit more fluid. I like the way ranged combat was presented in the livestream and I'm excited to get my hands on it to try it out.
Yeah, I definitely don't want a system where, in worst case scenario, the best way of going about combat is switching between tab targeting and reticle camera mode every few seconds.
Sounds like fun though.
I can imagine switching camera modes every few seconds could be tedious though, assuming your screen isn't (always) centered on your main target when you're in the tab targeting camera mode.
Then it's not as effective. Tedious win or Real Challenge lol.. . . .
I can see camera being used as part of the pressure a melee can apply. . . can't tab if they're in melee or whatever.
Being force-switched between action and third person due to enemy distance makes sense and if you're not facing them then let them have their advantage of dodging your moves or whatever.
To me action means being able to freefire any time, having the ability to lead my shots and the projectiles go where i'm aiming and not auto hone to the target that is nearest to my reticle and not this current reticle mouseover tab style. That is the playstyle i'm looking for as an action player and it makes me feel like i'm playing my character and not just pressing buttons as a character if that makes any sense.
In an FPS where the TTK is between 1-7s, and head-shots & 1-shots exist - totally agree. But in Ashes where the planned TTK is 30-60s, shots can be blocked by the environment, and ranged weapons have minimum distances, a pure action system will set you up to be destroyed by melee.
Combat skill in Ashes isn’t going to be simply ‘I can aim better than you’, it’s going to require using the environment to your advantage, executing good ambushes, appropriate positioning & distancing, and weaving all your abilities (be they action or tab) better than your opponent to defeat them.
You can also spec into glass cannon specs to lower the ttk, if someone is camping behind a small rock and has their head poking out, i should be able to try to shoot the head and not have my projectile automatically hit the rock (no headshot modifiers)
it's a risk to miss the target due to them moving, using abilities or me having poor aim, i'm fine with that.
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It seems that a lot of people who are complaining or worried about the soft lock and hard lock in action mode seem to be forgetting a key factor in game play. Apparently they think since the arrow is going to reach its target (hit scan), it will always hit. This is incorrect thinking. Based on stats and accuracy there will be chance of missing and failure on landing the hit.
I understand that Ashes "action combat" isn't what people normally expect as Action combat but I don't have a problem with what there doing so far. I look forward to testing it out in A2.
It seems that a lot of people who are complaining or worried about the soft lock and hard lock in action mode seem to be forgetting a key factor in game play. Apparently they think since the arrow is going to reach its target (hit scan), it will always hit. This is incorrect thinking. Based on stats and accuracy there will be chance of missing and failure on landing the hit.
I understand that Ashes "action combat" isn't what people normally expect as Action combat but I don't have a problem with what there doing so far. I look forward to testing it out in A2.
No that is correct it always hits the target and therefore making tab much more effective.
They have never said accuracy isn't a factor for action combat skills, in both cases in action mode just because you hit with soft lock doesn't mean your attack wont be evaded.
If there are more benefits they can talk and show about with action combat people will be happy to hear Ie stun, more accuracy, damage, crits, etc.
But I'm not going to assume what they have not shown yet. So what we have to go off is what we learned last week as there is no definitive answer.
It seems that a lot of people who are complaining or worried about the soft lock and hard lock in action mode seem to be forgetting a key factor in game play. Apparently they think since the arrow is going to reach its target (hit scan), it will always hit. This is incorrect thinking. Based on stats and accuracy there will be chance of missing and failure on landing the hit.
I understand that Ashes "action combat" isn't what people normally expect as Action combat but I don't have a problem with what there doing so far. I look forward to testing it out in A2.
No that is correct it always hits the target and therefore making tab much more effective.
They have never said accuracy isn't a factor for action combat skills, in both cases in action mode just because you hit with soft lock doesn't mean your attack wont be evaded.
If there are more benefits they can talk and show about with action combat people will be happy to hear Ie stun, more accuracy, damage, crits, etc.
But I'm not going to assume what they have not shown yet. So what we have to go off is what we learned last week as there is no definitive answer.
I disagree that it will always hit and do damage in tab.
If it always hits then what's the purpose for the "physical accuracy" stat they have?
You can see here the Stat they have they have shown in the past. It wouldn't make any sense to have that accuracy Stat if you will 100% always land a hit. Also, what would be the point of blocking/block chance? Not like shields are only for defense. Are you saying arrows will always hit and bypass shields as well?
It seems that a lot of people who are complaining or worried about the soft lock and hard lock in action mode seem to be forgetting a key factor in game play. Apparently they think since the arrow is going to reach its target (hit scan), it will always hit. This is incorrect thinking. Based on stats and accuracy there will be chance of missing and failure on landing the hit.
I understand that Ashes "action combat" isn't what people normally expect as Action combat but I don't have a problem with what there doing so far. I look forward to testing it out in A2.
No that is correct it always hits the target and therefore making tab much more effective.
They have never said accuracy isn't a factor for action combat skills, in both cases in action mode just because you hit with soft lock doesn't mean your attack wont be evaded.
If there are more benefits they can talk and show about with action combat people will be happy to hear Ie stun, more accuracy, damage, crits, etc.
But I'm not going to assume what they have not shown yet. So what we have to go off is what we learned last week as there is no definitive answer.
I disagree that it will always hit and do damage in tab.
If it always hits then what's the purpose for the "physical accuracy" stat they have?
You can see here the Stat they have they have shown in the past. It wouldn't make any sense to have that accuracy Stat if you will 100% always land a hit. Also, what would be the point of blocking/block chance? Not like shields are only for defense. Are you saying arrows will always hit and bypass shields as well?
Please quote me where i said it always deals damage.
Also please quote where action mmorpgs don't have accuracy on chance to hit moves as well.
You could make an evasion build on BDO and never be hit by a player do to miss chance and that is a full action mmorpg ...
STATS ARE NOT A ONLY TAB THING.
That should not be brought up as a point, unless a game design says there will be a clear difference between tab and action for stats. IS stance is stats apply to both, with action skills may having some sort of bonus which has yet to be shown.
Maybe we should discuss what we actually know from the live stream and what we can deduce about the how the system actually works. There will be of course some assumptions and questions. Please correct me if I made an unfounded assumtion or miss to state an assumption on my part.
So lets start with targeting:
There are three ways to target a short:
hard lock
soft lock
without lock (only in reticle mode)
Since the arrow is a projectile, the game needs to calculate a trajectory once one releases an arrow. The trajectory without lock is relatively easy, but there is the question about what happens at the end of the attack range. I assume, that in case of any lock, the trajectory calculated for a shot is the trajectory that would impact the selected target after the flight time of the arrow if the attacker does not change position. However there are two cases again:
if the projectile is seeking, the trajectory will change depending on the position change of the target.
if it is not seeking, the trajectory will be fixed and if the target moves the projectile may not impact the target.
Q: are autoattacks seeking? Is it different between tab hard and soft lock or between retical and tab mod? If it is not the same all he time, how does the target know whether dodging is required or not?
So after the projectile is released there are things that can happen.
If the projectile is seeking and the target does not move and no one interposes himself between target and projectile, the projectile will impact the target. I assume that there are no body parts, so it does not mattwe where it actually impacts.
If someone interposes himself what happens? Q: does the projectile impact whatever interposes itself? Does it go through? This has PvP/flagging/group play implications. Is it different for seeking and non-seeking projectiles, for reticle and tab mode, for other use cases?
If the projectile is not seeking and the target dodges, the projectile will not impact.
So, in case the projectile actually impacts, we come to the part that Steven mentioned when he talked about 'everything being stat opposed'. So actually impacting however an impact is defined (e.g. hitbox etc) the target does not necessarily mean the projectile actually hit or did any damage. Instead the traditional tab target compare between attacker and defender stats come into play. If defender has high evasion/block and the attacker has low accuracy the attack may still 'miss' even if the projectile impacted.
Q: is there still such kind of stat opposition for hit/miss or does this only determin damage? Is this the same in all modes or is this different in reticle and tab mode. Since Steven talked about everything being stat opposed I still think impacting projectiles can still miss. I also think it is not viable to have a difference between the two modes, because otherwise stats are only relevant in certain situations and there is basically no way to balance anything.
Some thoughts:
- If dodging projectiles in tab mode is a thing, it would seem that hardlocking does not actually ensure an impact. And since an attack is stat opposed anway, it would certainly not ensure a hit. The system seems to not depend on the target skill of the attacker, but more on the dodge skill of the defender. The question is how often can one dodge in a fight? The short bow would surely have an advantage here.
- If a tank can interpose himself between a projectile and a target that opens up many gameplay options. The tank role was always problematic with its taunt mechanic useless in PvP. Now, a tank has actual ways to actually protect. But this also somewhat contradicts what Steven says in the life stream, because selecting a player in the backline with tab may not actually help at all, since you cannot hit him anyway.
Time to Kill has been shown to be a lot lower than 30 seconds. If one misses their abilities, sure. If they all hit, it's way below 30 seconds. And they're throwing on all this mobility and AoE for some reason. . . lol
I’m not sure where you have seen this ‘shown.’ Nothing in any of the reveals or A1 has been balanced to the goal TTK. Steven is in God mode for all demos, and the damage output for those demos is entirely for demo’ing the skill and relative power, not balanced amplitudes.
There is only 1 Ranger; out of 8 classes. If FPS players want their 'class' let them have it.
Well, the preview of ranged basic attacks applies to all classes, not just rangers. All classes can use long and short bows, so no I don’t think turning the basic ranged attacks into an FPS is great for Ashes.
This is almost entirely decided by skills, base intentions and 'backpedal' functionality, though, not TTK.
Maybe, though they are balancing toward a goal TTK. So, my guess is that skills and cadence will be calibrated accordingly (taking the gear power ratio into account). MO2 had no minimum distance and required almost flawless twitch skills be a effective at range - that was with about half the TTK Ashes is targeting.
Isn't the intention moreso that Rangers change to melee weapons once the melee-focused player gets in (as in, all your escapes have been used)? And relies on their advantage up until that point to win? I personally will be fairly disappointed if that's not the case (though I can't speak to balance overall, I bet I wouldn't like it either).
Agreed, and that’s exactly how I’m predicting the Ranger I will play. Meaning those with this image of a one-shot Legolas sniper advocating for pure action will have to adjust accordingly - or get mowed down by melee.
All basic range action mode attacks should have projectile motion/arcs. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
It didn’t appear the arrows in the preview have a ballistic trajectory.
Honestly, I can’t imagine they’d implement a trajectory when you have a hybrid combat system where you have tab and hard targets. Those folks that have to adjust for elevation and drop would be at way too far a disadvantage to another player tabbing them, not to mention melee with a quick charge.
Ya i dont think they need to be really falling down, but i can understand why some people would want that for super long range shots. Would be interesting for a showcase on more skills and far range combat and how that will feel.
If all arrows are straight with no fall off it feels kind of scuffed game wise.
Comments
I sucked at muskets in New World, so I didn't land most of my shots, also didn't main it either tbh, went mage which still took aim and leading for heavy and light attacks. I'm not saying this game needs headshots but if we are trying to find a balance then I think tab needs to have more rng elements to it vs action.
Thats not a good thing. I dont want a FPS headshot system in an mmorpg.
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
Doesn't need to be head shots, and again this is a bow, there can be drop off so it isn't hit scan and arrow sink with range. I'm not advocating for NWs musket, trust me I played mage and got shot constantly by 3 of those mofos in OPR and with no drop in damage and hit scan it was annoying. But we can definitely make it so that arrows, like the fireball I was talking about requires skill from a distance.
Sorry to hear, that you suck at musket in NW. That said consider that you dont represent the average player with this that played the weappon for a while and got the hang of it.
To be fair I never played it much either so I am, in no way a good representation of a musket, mage however I was very good at. Either way I'm trying to find a middle ground we can take where we can get some true action combat but not have people who like tab thinking it's an FPS.
Can we stop pretending like using free firing is some big deal? You'll maybe use it less than 1% of the time if you're being competitive.
It's also strange to see tab target players complaining about "being forced" to play action sometimes in a supposedly hybrid system. I HAVE to play tab target given the current information, I'm forced to do it. At least with giving a damage % increase to using action combat you're giving people a reason to use action. We're acting like people are going to be hitting shots above 70% of the time with action combat free firing. You won't, play New World for a bit with bow. Free firing needs to have a damage bonus in PvP or if people see you using it they'll kick you out of their group.
Well ItsmeToki thinks peopel land head shots 80-90% of the time and land every shot on people. Im wondering where these people are in shooters though landing headshots like that lol.
Honestly i don't care about head shots it doesn't need to be like that, it can simply be like a action game with soft lock. People just yell and scream for extremes and use the worst examples possible to try and say one game will be like the worst ever. Which is just being disingenuous.
It definitely uses different skills lol. Tab elements still exist and Action ADDS skill requirements.
If people suffer the fact then let them. Useless gas lighting lmao
It makes abilities deeper and opens up room for more varied abilities as well.
Sounds like fun though.
It doesn't use different skills. you press 1 to attack on both action and tab. By pressing one you attack...
In tab you do not need to track or aim towards your target and deal with the skill / issues that come with that.
In action you need to track, predict movements, etc when you press one to make sure the attack lands.
So they are bot the same but action has more layers to what you need to do, therefor making it more difficult and adding a skill curve to it.
It is a bit crazy a tab player would be yelling about basic attacks because you don't use that in a tab target game....Why would you do a move that does no damage pretty much, answer is you don't you use your 50 skills on your bar (which is also ridiculous)
To me action means being able to freefire any time, having the ability to lead my shots and the projectiles go where i'm aiming and not auto hone to the target that is nearest to my reticle and not this current reticle mouseover tab style. That is the playstyle i'm looking for as an action player and it makes me feel like i'm playing my character and not just pressing buttons as a character if that makes any sense.
Few ideas i came up with.
1. Since they are already playing around with the idea of having a hold to increase dmg and release basic attack for the bow, why not make that action only. This way there would be more of a risk and reward for action.
2. have your normal basic attack as tab target as it is now, but holding right click changes to action mode where you have the hold and release for extra damage (this would probably work better if they removed the full tab mode, but went with the reticle mode instead where you could also use tab and had soft lock as someone has suggested)
3. Since hard cc is supposed to be action only ''current mouseover tab'' few ranger abilities could be these if they went with my definition of action
Freeze Arrow = Your next arrow slows target by % (Tab) if fully charged (action) freezes the target for x seconds.
Quick Shot = Your next arrow Increases DMG done to the target by % for x seconds (3 charges)
Snipe = Increases the range of your next arrow and removes damage fall off
Cone Shot = Your next attack releases multiple arrows in a cone formation infront of you (short range tab) if fully charged increases range by %
Rapidfire = Increases your rate of fire by %
Abilities like these would be usable with both tab and action and then add mobility abilities, traps and such
I can imagine switching camera modes every few seconds could be tedious though, assuming your screen isn't (always) centered on your main target when you're in the tab targeting camera mode. They'd have to make it not tedious.
In an FPS where the TTK is between 1-7s, and head-shots & 1-shots exist - totally agree. But in Ashes where the planned TTK is 30-60s, shots can be blocked by the environment, and ranged weapons have minimum distances, a pure action system will set you up to be destroyed by melee.
Combat skill in Ashes isn’t going to be simply ‘I can aim better than you’, it’s going to require using the environment to your advantage, executing good ambushes, appropriate positioning & distancing, and weaving all your abilities (be they action or tab) better than your opponent to defeat them.
This may help: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Time_to_kill
I agree that personal skill should be rewarded.
iccer makes no sense; pretends to be diplomatic but just wants to castrate action combat. Should probably blacklist him lmao
Tab technically requires a 180 hemisphere and turning towards someone hopping over you, which is somewhat reliant on prediction and positioning. . . so I guess it's the same . . .
. . .but I think you're giving iccer too much credit. He doesn't give a shit what you think LOL he's just a selfish tab crab that refuses to get good at anything or let others be rewarded for their somewhat physical skill in a video game. This is the MMO playerbase selfishness.
Any part of the game can be a selling point. Combat in a game that is full of combat and Civ vs Civ war is a huge selling point (or the combat is shit and that appeal is gone).
Many people are waiting for massively multiplayer games to have great combat. Many people play combat games.
Not sure how you could think combat in an MMO isn't very important.
You're delusional and dishonest.
You don't want action combat to offer any reward to skill so that you can. . . be more effective in combat???? So you don't lose to others in combat?????
What's the appeal of Ashes to you? LMAO
You full blown want to fight others but don't want to lose and don't want to improve either. LOL
So you want to castrate action combat. Grow up.
Time to Kill has been shown to be a lot lower than 30 seconds. If one misses their abilities, sure. If they all hit, it's way below 30 seconds. And they're throwing on all this mobility and AoE for some reason. . . lol
There is only 1 Ranger; out of 8 classes. If FPS players want their 'class' let them have it.
Just as Warrior in WoW can use Engineer items like a gun and explosives, everyone else can situationally use a bow or gun. . . or a Melee as well.
But let the class have its own kind of "hybrid combat". Reward those that actually like FPS games LOL instead of saying "there's room for you here with our perfectly designated shooter class but GET THE FUCK OUT" like jesus man just let the people live out the Archetype.
This is almost entirely decided by skills, base intentions and 'backpedal' functionality, though, not TTK.
4:50 Timestamp isn't a direct point to what I'm saying, but rather, framing.
That fight is two rangers vs a 'melee Bard' and a Mage. The Ranger gets hit by the Mage's Ult (basically Black Hole) and it flows from there. The speed of backpedaling and the overall concept of 'what is important to target' matters much more than the TTK since the relationship to 'how many times you can use a skill in a normal fight' is more important than 'how quickly does your opponent die'.
I won't mind if Ashes melee have the number of gap-closers and roots required to take out a Tab Target Ranger, since I enjoy BDO's combat, but it's unlikely that even in pure action, even with the damage tuned for hitting stationary bosses, that this would be a problem.
Isn't the intention moreso that Rangers change to melee weapons once the melee-focused player gets in (as in, all your escapes have been used)? And relies on their advantage up until that point to win? I personally will be fairly disappointed if that's not the case (though I can't speak to balance overall, I bet I wouldn't like it either).
Then it's not as effective. Tedious win or Real Challenge lol.. . . .
I can see camera being used as part of the pressure a melee can apply. . . can't tab if they're in melee or whatever.
Being force-switched between action and third person due to enemy distance makes sense and if you're not facing them then let them have their advantage of dodging your moves or whatever.
You can also spec into glass cannon specs to lower the ttk, if someone is camping behind a small rock and has their head poking out, i should be able to try to shoot the head and not have my projectile automatically hit the rock (no headshot modifiers)
it's a risk to miss the target due to them moving, using abilities or me having poor aim, i'm fine with that.
I understand that Ashes "action combat" isn't what people normally expect as Action combat but I don't have a problem with what there doing so far. I look forward to testing it out in A2.
No that is correct it always hits the target and therefore making tab much more effective.
They have never said accuracy isn't a factor for action combat skills, in both cases in action mode just because you hit with soft lock doesn't mean your attack wont be evaded.
If there are more benefits they can talk and show about with action combat people will be happy to hear Ie stun, more accuracy, damage, crits, etc.
But I'm not going to assume what they have not shown yet. So what we have to go off is what we learned last week as there is no definitive answer.
I disagree that it will always hit and do damage in tab.
If it always hits then what's the purpose for the "physical accuracy" stat they have?
You can see here the Stat they have they have shown in the past. It wouldn't make any sense to have that accuracy Stat if you will 100% always land a hit. Also, what would be the point of blocking/block chance? Not like shields are only for defense. Are you saying arrows will always hit and bypass shields as well?
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Gear
Please quote me where i said it always deals damage.
Also please quote where action mmorpgs don't have accuracy on chance to hit moves as well.
You could make an evasion build on BDO and never be hit by a player do to miss chance and that is a full action mmorpg ...
STATS ARE NOT A ONLY TAB THING.
That should not be brought up as a point, unless a game design says there will be a clear difference between tab and action for stats. IS stance is stats apply to both, with action skills may having some sort of bonus which has yet to be shown.
Your reply... and said "it always hits the target"
You may have misunderstood my OP.
So lets start with targeting:
There are three ways to target a short:
- hard lock
- soft lock
- without lock (only in reticle mode)
Since the arrow is a projectile, the game needs to calculate a trajectory once one releases an arrow. The trajectory without lock is relatively easy, but there is the question about what happens at the end of the attack range. I assume, that in case of any lock, the trajectory calculated for a shot is the trajectory that would impact the selected target after the flight time of the arrow if the attacker does not change position. However there are two cases again:- if the projectile is seeking, the trajectory will change depending on the position change of the target.
- if it is not seeking, the trajectory will be fixed and if the target moves the projectile may not impact the target.
Q: are autoattacks seeking? Is it different between tab hard and soft lock or between retical and tab mod? If it is not the same all he time, how does the target know whether dodging is required or not?So after the projectile is released there are things that can happen.
So, in case the projectile actually impacts, we come to the part that Steven mentioned when he talked about 'everything being stat opposed'. So actually impacting however an impact is defined (e.g. hitbox etc) the target does not necessarily mean the projectile actually hit or did any damage. Instead the traditional tab target compare between attacker and defender stats come into play. If defender has high evasion/block and the attacker has low accuracy the attack may still 'miss' even if the projectile impacted.
Q: is there still such kind of stat opposition for hit/miss or does this only determin damage? Is this the same in all modes or is this different in reticle and tab mode. Since Steven talked about everything being stat opposed I still think impacting projectiles can still miss. I also think it is not viable to have a difference between the two modes, because otherwise stats are only relevant in certain situations and there is basically no way to balance anything.
Some thoughts:
- If dodging projectiles in tab mode is a thing, it would seem that hardlocking does not actually ensure an impact. And since an attack is stat opposed anway, it would certainly not ensure a hit. The system seems to not depend on the target skill of the attacker, but more on the dodge skill of the defender. The question is how often can one dodge in a fight? The short bow would surely have an advantage here.
- If a tank can interpose himself between a projectile and a target that opens up many gameplay options. The tank role was always problematic with its taunt mechanic useless in PvP. Now, a tank has actual ways to actually protect. But this also somewhat contradicts what Steven says in the life stream, because selecting a player in the backline with tab may not actually help at all, since you cannot hit him anyway.
Thoughts?
Did not misread, it will hit every time that does not mean it will deal damage every time.
In action combat if it hits, it does not mean it will deal damage every time
You can't fuse hit and deal damage together....
I’m not sure where you have seen this ‘shown.’ Nothing in any of the reveals or A1 has been balanced to the goal TTK. Steven is in God mode for all demos, and the damage output for those demos is entirely for demo’ing the skill and relative power, not balanced amplitudes.
Well, the preview of ranged basic attacks applies to all classes, not just rangers. All classes can use long and short bows, so no I don’t think turning the basic ranged attacks into an FPS is great for Ashes.
Maybe, though they are balancing toward a goal TTK. So, my guess is that skills and cadence will be calibrated accordingly (taking the gear power ratio into account). MO2 had no minimum distance and required almost flawless twitch skills be a effective at range - that was with about half the TTK Ashes is targeting.
Agreed, and that’s exactly how I’m predicting the Ranger I will play. Meaning those with this image of a one-shot Legolas sniper advocating for pure action will have to adjust accordingly - or get mowed down by melee.
Honestly, I can’t imagine they’d implement a trajectory when you have a hybrid combat system where you have tab and hard targets. Those folks that have to adjust for elevation and drop would be at way too far a disadvantage to another player tabbing them, not to mention melee with a quick charge.
If all arrows are straight with no fall off it feels kind of scuffed game wise.