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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED A ACTION GAME IS YEARS. Or actually being purposely ignorant.
Now times that with all your other skills and see how that adds up.
You honestly don't get it, action does not take a different kind of skill.
In a mmorpg that is tab you use your skill and it hits the target if yuo are in line of sight.
In action if you use your skill it works no different than tab for just that. But you can't just use your skill you need to prediction motions, you need to dodge their attacks, you need to track them (like your camera needs to face them and not attack off screen) and more.
ACTION has more levels and there for has a lot more you need to do, and that is simply just using one SKILL. You need to consistent do that as you use multiple skills or your rotations .
You saying they are different skills is blatantly wrong, action simply ADDS more layers of skill difficulty to combat.
There is nothing wrong with it, but people that say if you are using a auto attack that is by default more difficult in action combat can't have some sort of fair buff is insane to me.
They start to say this isn't a FPS, tab and action camera take the same amount of effort, or any other weird stuff and go crazy about hearing a buff for additional effort or reducing INSANE kiting potential for range not needing to face your target.
I never said remove tab combat, I've simply said balance for effort needed. And some of these posters are going crazy for people that say if this takes more effort i should get a buff like they have committed some grand sin for stating the obvious.
Again. Your talk shows inexperience in tab PvP gameplay. Turning your camera and autotarget with action combat takes less thinking than assigning arena 1,2,3 target makros to your PvP opponents that change with every match. So with every match you have a different situation. while tab pvp is fast paced you cannot allow yourself to cc the wrong target. Its not like you press tab and you automatically target the right enemie. Therefore you have makros which need some training and skill to be used in the right way. If you wanna succeed in tab PvP you surely cannot be a slow minded person
I think ppl dont understand how fast high level tab target combat actually is, cause they have never played it and its hard to understand for a gamer with no experience in this genre.
25% tab and 75% action doesn't automatically means hit collision like new world. And I believe it was said you can have 75^ of skills action oriented. In melee it basically behaves like true action combat. In range there is compromises.
It's hybrid, it takes something from both and merge it. You can still fire in action camera in general direction and if someone walks in front of your projectile you hit them, even though in the time of firing no one was there, hence it is not pure tab targeting.
I am following this game for 2 years. I also liked combat in new world. And during those 2 years I never expected action combat like new world. Just by listening to what Steven says.
I guess good thing this live streams exist so misunderstandings can be resolved and expectations adjusted.
You are the one who doesn't get it.
The argument was about PvP tab vs action. To say PvP in tab-target is as simple as pressing a button or using a rotation, which you are constantly suggesting, is wrong.
In tab target games, you also need to predict what they're going to do, react to it, dodge/evade/block/absorb/shield the attack if possible, you also need to track them and pay attention to what they're doing and where they're going.
Those things aren't exclusive to action combat games. This just tells me that you're either trolling, or have never play tab-target games. There's probably a third option, but I don't want to say it.
Action does indeed add another layer on top, which is aiming your skills. But again, in more hybrid styled games, or even some pure tab target games, you also have some skillshots/ground target AoEs - Things Ashes will most definitely have.
Obviously aiming in action combat games is more prevalent, I'm not arguing that tab-targeting is the same.
See that is finally a decent point, took you a while to respond with one, without making stuff up that I have never said. So well done on that.
I would agree with most of it. Just running back while shooting and kiting shouldn't be a thing, you should at least need to face the target. I've linked some quotes from wiki, and they do agree to give some abilities different things based on if you are tab or action combat, though they are from a few years ago.
I wouldn't be against a slight flat damage increase for ranged action combat, but I would still be very against any sort of headshot mechanics. Melee action combat is whatever, it works alright in MMOs. But action range combat in MMOs tends to become an overpowered meta. To me, it doesn't matter what sort of skill it requires, in the end what matters is the games design balance, and ranged action combat tends to result in an imbalance in MMORPGs.
I believe there will be skills that need to be triggered from action mode (up to 75% of them) but we shouldn't expect hit collision like new world
I am breaking down the combat to simply just the skills and how they work to land a hit.
I am not talking about everything else. As it all applies to action and tab target mmorpgs and there id difference as it is not a point for tab combat since it again applies to both them.
Tab mmorpgs movement isn't that great, ddoge is more a action element, if any tab game has actual dodging it means they are relying on action combat elements over stat skill dodge. Not a point for tab, also yes you need to know the general direction of your target, that doesn't mean you need to face them to attack them you simply just follow them. This again is not a point for tab combat, in action you have to track them with your sight and follow them, and dodge their moves physically or with stat skills.
Again if a tab game is actually using physical dodge for aoe effects, those are all action implementations into tab combat. Because action elements make the game you know, more fun.
Yes im aware AoC will have skill shots, as well had tab target skills, i have no issue ith that or even maybe in soem cases a tab skill doing more dmg than a action skill.
MY ISSUE is people freaking out about a type of consistent damage you are doing in the basic attack getting a buff for those that take the extra layer of difficulty and focus to be landing their shots while doing everything else... Why is that so hard to understand that using tab for that will give you more damage, and more kiting power?
I agree to Iccer, its pointless to argue with you since you missread everything i write (maybe cause you dont understand it) and moreover draw wrong conclusions from it. Please annoy somebody else with your action combat bllsht...
I don't care about head shot, but a damage and movement speed increase should be a thing. More effort needs a reward. Having a reward doesn't mean you will always be doing more damage unless you are skilled enough.
IE using tab combat and landing all hits give you that 100% damage.
Using action and landing half your hits only gives you 65%-75% damage. Landing all hits gives 115%-125% damage. That doesn't mean you will be consistent landing every single hit all the time.
If kiting seems to strong and people can't do anything there should be a speed nerf that applies to tab, if tab ones are dealing that much dmg while always avoiding most dmg. And keeping he 105 speed for when you are in action since their kiting isn't as strong as a tab user. But allowing that reason to push for skilled players in short or longer and large burst.
When your point is counter so you make some some random bs because you know you are in the wrong, k bud.
who in the world lands only 50% of their shots with the bow weappon in new world? (its per hit dmg is rediculously overtuned btw)
Maybe you mean 50% of head shots?
For your concern: I used NW as an Excample since we are talking about action MMOs
Argue more like this: The average player lands about 80 to 90% of headshots in an action MMO where combat is slower than in fps games. So devs should probably lower crit dmg with action mode on, since the overall dmgoutput will be too good compared to tab combat.
I'll ask you this then. Why not just keep the entire playing field level with a hybrid system that focuses on tab basic attacks and mostly action abilities? That way everyone stays in the same set of tools to utilize their level of skill? Sure, someone may be better at range action, but your skills are defined by a games parameters. So If you are playing a game that doesn't focus on aimed action combat, that skill set is pointless to even mention. You would have to be good at aiming abilities and timing them with tab target basic attacks, thats the skillset available.
Sure those are action elements, put in a tab-target game. The more action stuff you add, the closer to action it gets, at some point you call it hybrid. I'm not saying all of action combat is bad, some features are great, and could be implemented in tab-target or hybrid games to enhance gameplay. Full on action-combat though, is not something I look for in an MMORPG.
It's not hard to understand your point, I agree with some of it. The issue is you didn't bring up those points right away when you quoted me or some other people, until recently. You instead chose to cherry pick arguments, and put words into other people's mouths.
Now that you have actually pointed out stuff you have an issue with, let's discuss that.
Running away while attacking shouldn't be a thing in a game that has both action and tab target combat.
GW2 actually doesn't allow this, and you need to face your target in order to use those tab-target abilities that exist. Now I often find it annoying to deal with for some reason, especially when using those abilities in close range. Enemies do get behind you, and you have to turn around your character a lot.
My suggestions are: If the enemy is on your screen, doesn't need to be directly in front of you, could be a little bit to the side, you should be able to tag them normally with tab-target abilities.
If you are facing away from your target completely, when you attack them, either of these 2 things should happen (optionally, you could pick which one you want to use in the settings menu):
1. You simply cannot attack them, the ability doesn't go off at all
2. When you use the ability, your character turns around, and then attacks - here the speed by which the character turns and attacks, should be adjusted. Players who use action-combat style can't instantly turn around and hit the target. Edit: I'm not sure if AoC has a different animation when suddenly turning/changing directions. Something like this could be helpful. An animation of turning your character around 180 should take like 0.5 seconds to go off, after which you attack.
Both of these accomplish similar things. The main thing is that it doesn't allow you to just run around and kite people, without facing them. This is done because players who pick action-combat style wouldn't be able to do the same thing.
With this change, both players using different styles can now accomplish the same thing.
Just rough ideas, I haven't given it much thought on how it would actually work, and how annoying it would be to deal with.
You are crazy if you think people land 80-90 of head shots in a action game / shooter/ etc in pvp.
This statement shows you do not play shooters.
As far as ne world is concerned the movement in that game is not fast, it is a lot easier to land shots int he game with swaying and rolling being the main factors on dodging shots. When you have a game with a lot more fast movement, projectile time, dodge type abilities that is completely different and much more difficult than a slower pace game like New world.
People need to stop bringing up new world, combat wise that is not a standard for action combat. You gain nothing from bringing that up, that game play was built up more akin to a survival game.
This is the crazy point you are actually bringing up when tab literally lands you every hit.
Because there is a demand for people wanting to have more investment int heir combat and for that to be rewarded with their skill. If they are giving people the choice of tab or action for basic attacks the design should make sense for either.
In the future I'd rather have that player movement be the high skill ceiling people aim towards, rather in the future if people feel ranger kiting is too strong so they just nerf it hard across the board because of tab.
Though you didn't mention this i fidn it funny about the comments about aim botters. What does that make tab target then, actually pretty much the same as aim bot.
There are a lot of things I heavily disagree with in this reply, first off Steven has said that this is not your typical MMO and that this might not be that game for you if you don't like xyz, so this isn't a game for the masses and is more of a niche game, because it's supposed to be hard and a risk vs reward game.
Second people didn't quit New World just because of the combat, they mainly quit because it was a buggy mess with little to no story or content. Now there are absolutely things they could have done better in the combat, I think muskets shouldn't have been hit scan because it can get aim botters playing.
Action combat is harder to play, if you're going to have a both up to 75% those who aim should be rewarded otherwise there is NO reason to play action combat and again you will have a GW2 situation where no one uses it, so why even implement it?
"a big reason"
Not the only reason.
I know ALOT of people that quit becouse of the bad combat ontop of the boring, repetative gameplay
New World is one of the worst examples of action combat.
If AoC went that way i and many others wouldnt want to play AoC at all.
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
If you have to face your target in tab than would be a lot closer and fair for action as action can just have a strong soft targeting, though there is a different it wouldn't be as big and would help to control making kiting too strong. Though I don't have a issue being able to attack and move at the same time as long as it is balanced in a fair way.
Both would still need to be tested in alpha of course to see effectiveness, though them saying the feeling is good at that point is a good sign. When i looked at the game play it looked fluid compared to some other games in the recent years being shown. (throne and liberty, new world, mortal online 2)
Im unsure why you are assuming everyone is a new world player. Action combat doesn't mean its liek a FPS there is a huge difference.
A lot of things are said in development, when have they said action combat isn't working? I wouldn't go assuming that it won't work, they have great talent and I'm sure feeling and gameplay wise it is almost there and working...
Talking about something working and balance are two different things.
As far as i see they have already shown it working to a even higher level than i expected...Main do tot he fact arrows shots are projectiles and not hit scan.
Master of misquoting at it again i see
"if"
"alot of"
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
I didnt say this o.o
And I know quite of few people who are coming back to it because they liked the combat but it was not fun due the bugs, no content, duping that went on. This game could be similar but also better at the same time, IE having more skills, but there was nothing better than out playing your opponent in that game and absolutely destroying them because you were just mechanically better than them or launching a fireball 100 yards away and nailing someone because you aimed it. And I played a lot of New World, over 100 wars.
They were replying to me :P
The real demand I see is for combat that is fluid, fun and satisfying. Demand for a focus on difficult or "skilled" combat design in MMO's is a pretty minor group. Sure, people want challenging content, but the majority aren't asking for a huge skill cap.
Reward for skill comes from the rewards earned by utilizing the games provided tools, reward shouldn't be increasing ones ability on top of already being better than other people. Your rewards are items and achievements for having skill with the provided systems.
Kiting will be tuned in the testing phases, so theres no reason to debuff any players for literally being at the baseline gameplay design at the moment. And nerfing tab targeting for the reasons you gave seem a bit contradictory to what you have been saying anyway. Being that, according to you, action combat should reward skill, but if you nerf tab target players you are decreasing the amount of skill required to use action combat while still wanting to reward them with benefits to using it.
And in regards to aim botting, that is a very real problem when a ranged aimed action combat system is in place, because if not everyone is able to do it, it is unfair when any other person is aim botting while others are not. If everyone is using tab targeted combat, the playing field is even.
In the end, action combat isn't a bad thing necessarily. But ranged action combat just doesn't really have a place in most great MMORPGs, especially ones going along the path of design like ashes of creation currently is.
Don't agree with this, that is simply people wanting a easier form of combat. Action combat has a place in both ranged and melee, there is no reason for it only to be focused in one and not both.
This part makes no sense to me you aren't lowering the skill cap on action combat, you require the same amount of effort which is greater then tab by default.
I am surprised you are trying to argue the point on aim botting now as that is a reason for tab target all the sudden. Then ill have to bring my full argument in on all elements of hacking a reason to remove gameplay elements if hackers find ways to exploits everything,.... Hacks is not a reason to change game design.
Effectively you are saying there are hacks so we need to dumb down content so players and hackers are on the same playing field. But then hackers make their attack sped faster and just shoot faster and deal more damage... So then do we need to make things turn based?
It isn't a minor group that makes skill to be involved in their games. You could have made but point many years ago but in this current age peoples expectations nd desires for games are not the same as before. A lot of people enjoy action combat, and games can do it much better now compared to before. The many comments in this thread and the other combat thread about action combat should speak for itself.
Yeah, I definitely don't want a system where, in worst case scenario, the best way of going about combat is switching between tab targeting and reticle camera mode every few seconds.
While this obviously got off topic, I would like to say there were a lot of positives in the graphics, sound, fluidity and overall quality of the game. I think we are all just curious where the combat will go, regardless of bias because it is a big part of the game.