If you argue hitting "3" on your keyboard takes more skill then "looking at some ones direction, tracking, prediciting their movement and hitting 3" is the same amount of reaction.
YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED A ACTION GAME IS YEARS. Or actually being purposely ignorant.
Now times that with all your other skills and see how that adds up.
This comment is actually stupid lmfao. You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available. Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time.
Using hacks as a reason to not have gameplay is also up there is one of the most stupid comments you can make in gaming. As any element of a game can be hacked and changed, the fact you are trying to reference this as a point is actually stupid as shit. So when hackers abuse certain skill effects, or effect life skilling in some way in the future that needs to also be removed from the game. Use your head please atleast a little.
4k hours is nothing on bdo is nothing sorry to say lmao, also means nothing to the conversation.
It is common knowledge action takes more skill than tab, it is honestly just naïve of you to think skill queing and automatically hitting your target takes more skill then action.
Anyone with half a brain knows action adds another element of skill and skill cap to the game, that will go beyond TAB target in difficulty easily any day of the month. And that is why action combat needs some balance so the difficultly it scaled to reasonable levels over impossible levels.
Your comment is the type of comment that should not be listened to, they are well versed and aware of tab target combat. They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat and making sure content is balanced based on skill put in so people that are wiling to play action have some benefits for the added difficulty of actually aiming their skills then automatically hitting targets lmao.
You honestly sound like someone that is bad in action. Exactly why you don't want a benefit for additional inputs needed lmao.
Sorry, I just have to reply while I'm still here.
In their example, the PvP would absolutely NOT rely on rotations alone. "You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available." - Again, NOBODY said that, you are making up arguments to suit your agenda. You mention rotations, and then you try to attack it, acting like the other person brought that argument up. Again, you keep falsely assuming stuff, you keep falsely accusing people. Just stop.
"Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time."
This is simply false. If you are really making that argument. the same argument could be used for action combat as well. You'll just need to teach your grandma to use a mouse as well to aim abilities. It's a really stupid argument.
Action takes different kind of skill compared to tab. Sure action does require more mechanical skill, I'll give you that.
Ah yes there we go. "They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat" - I think you're just mad that this game isn't turning out into what you thought it would be. So many people are coming here whining about tab-targeting, but combat was never the main selling point of this game, especially not the action combat.
You honestly don't get it, action does not take a different kind of skill.
In a mmorpg that is tab you use your skill and it hits the target if yuo are in line of sight.
In action if you use your skill it works no different than tab for just that. But you can't just use your skill you need to prediction motions, you need to dodge their attacks, you need to track them (like your camera needs to face them and not attack off screen) and more.
ACTION has more levels and there for has a lot more you need to do, and that is simply just using one SKILL. You need to consistent do that as you use multiple skills or your rotations .
You saying they are different skills is blatantly wrong, action simply ADDS more layers of skill difficulty to combat.
Only reason people are suggesting auto attacks be tab target only because they want to remove skill elements from the game because other players will be better than them. And use gear or skill when it comes to beating someone
It's because of this level of absolute Stupidity that there is no chance intrepid would ever go action.
Get this dude in a balanced arena with equal gear in Archeage or any other decent tab target game against a good player I guarantee 100% he would get absolutely destroyed. Ask this dude in what tab game he was ever rank 1 since there is no skill.
The stupidity of thinking there is no skill in tab target is beyond me, this is the kind of player that all feedback should be 100% ignored.
Quoting the man himself "Ashes won't be for everyone" and all the action andies can keep crying because as we were told once again yesterday, Ashes leans more to tab target and won't ever be an action game. Go play New World or any other aim bot infested shit show of a game.
PS: I have over 4k hours in BDO playing a perma red ninja, and prob a lot more than that in Tera, RaiderZ, C9 and the list goes on. Most people I see talk shit about tab - are not only are bad in tab but suck in action as well.
This comment is actually stupid lmfao. You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available. Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time.
Using hacks as a reason to not have gameplay is also up there is one of the most stupid comments you can make in gaming. As any element of a game can be hacked and changed, the fact you are trying to reference this as a point is actually stupid as shit. So when hackers abuse certain skill effects, or effect life skilling in some way in the future that needs to also be removed from the game. Use your head please atleast a little.
4k hours is nothing on bdo is nothing sorry to say lmao, also means nothing to the conversation.
It is common knowledge action takes more skill than tab, it is honestly just naïve of you to think skill queing and automatically hitting your target takes more skill then action.
Anyone with half a brain knows action adds another element of skill and skill cap to the game, that will go beyond TAB target in difficulty easily any day of the month. And that is why action combat needs some balance so the difficultly it scaled to reasonable levels over impossible levels.
Your comment is the type of comment that should not be listened to, they are well versed and aware of tab target combat. They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat and making sure content is balanced based on skill put in so people that are wiling to play action have some benefits for the added difficulty of actually aiming their skills then automatically hitting targets lmao.
You honestly sound like someone that is bad in action. Exactly why you don't want a benefit for additional inputs needed lmao.
Not even regarding the skill aspect of either system. Which types of MMOs have been the most fun? In my experience the best MMOs have either been tab target or a hybrid with lean more towards tab target. This could be chalked up to opinion, but generally I have yet to experience an action combat MMO that has fluid, and fun gameplay, especially in regards to PVP
There is nothing wrong with it, but people that say if you are using a auto attack that is by default more difficult in action combat can't have some sort of fair buff is insane to me.
They start to say this isn't a FPS, tab and action camera take the same amount of effort, or any other weird stuff and go crazy about hearing a buff for additional effort or reducing INSANE kiting potential for range not needing to face your target.
I never said remove tab combat, I've simply said balance for effort needed. And some of these posters are going crazy for people that say if this takes more effort i should get a buff like they have committed some grand sin for stating the obvious.
If you argue hitting "3" on your keyboard takes more skill then "looking at some ones direction, tracking, prediciting their movement and hitting 3" is the same amount of reaction.
YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED A ACTION GAME IS YEARS. Or actually being purposely ignorant.
Now times that with all your other skills and see how that adds up.
Again. Your talk shows inexperience in tab PvP gameplay. Turning your camera and autotarget with action combat takes less thinking than assigning arena 1,2,3 target makros to your PvP opponents that change with every match. So with every match you have a different situation. while tab pvp is fast paced you cannot allow yourself to cc the wrong target. Its not like you press tab and you automatically target the right enemie. Therefore you have makros which need some training and skill to be used in the right way. If you wanna succeed in tab PvP you surely cannot be a slow minded person
I think ppl dont understand how fast high level tab target combat actually is, cause they have never played it and its hard to understand for a gamer with no experience in this genre.
they said in the past that combat from apoc testing will not be present in AoC. Not sure why are people angry, its not anything new.
25% tab and 75% action doesn't automatically means hit collision like new world. And I believe it was said you can have 75^ of skills action oriented. In melee it basically behaves like true action combat. In range there is compromises.
It's hybrid, it takes something from both and merge it. You can still fire in action camera in general direction and if someone walks in front of your projectile you hit them, even though in the time of firing no one was there, hence it is not pure tab targeting.
I am following this game for 2 years. I also liked combat in new world. And during those 2 years I never expected action combat like new world. Just by listening to what Steven says.
I guess good thing this live streams exist so misunderstandings can be resolved and expectations adjusted.
You honestly don't get it, action does not take a different kind of skill.
In a mmorpg that is tab you use your skill and it hits the target if yuo are in line of sight.
In action if you use your skill it works no different than tab for just that. But you can't just use your skill you need to prediction motions, you need to dodge their attacks, you need to track them (like your camera needs to face them and not attack off screen) and more.
ACTION has more levels and there for has a lot more you need to do, and that is simply just using one SKILL. You need to consistent do that as you use multiple skills or your rotations .
You saying they are different skills is blatantly wrong, action simply ADDS more layers of skill difficulty to combat.
You are the one who doesn't get it.
The argument was about PvP tab vs action. To say PvP in tab-target is as simple as pressing a button or using a rotation, which you are constantly suggesting, is wrong.
In tab target games, you also need to predict what they're going to do, react to it, dodge/evade/block/absorb/shield the attack if possible, you also need to track them and pay attention to what they're doing and where they're going.
Those things aren't exclusive to action combat games. This just tells me that you're either trolling, or have never play tab-target games. There's probably a third option, but I don't want to say it.
Action does indeed add another layer on top, which is aiming your skills. But again, in more hybrid styled games, or even some pure tab target games, you also have some skillshots/ground target AoEs - Things Ashes will most definitely have.
Obviously aiming in action combat games is more prevalent, I'm not arguing that tab-targeting is the same.
I've already said the solution, IS has said in the past and others have said it. If you put more EFFORT into something you need to be REWARDED for that effort. Else you are adding something in people won't use and that means it isn't hybrid.
IE if you need to track someone and shoot spots and look in their direction, comapred to full spriting back and mashing attak without looking at them. It is clear AS DAMN DAY. Which is more easily and most power.
Landing every hit, seeing more surrounding easier, and MAKING KITING EXTREMELY EASY. Which means if it also gets nerfed you are giving action combat a harder time because you are balanced around tab combat when it is suppose to be hybrid.
Why is that so damn hard to understand. I don't care you are defensive about tab combat, it doesn't matter action still takes more effort it doesn't matter how much skill you think is involved with TAB, action is just more levels always. And if there is no balance around needing more effort things become obsolete GW as a perfect example.
These points on people yelling TAB TAKES SKILL does not MATTER, what matters is balance of how much a player puts in and it is more with action.
Does that mean every action skill needs to do 2* more dmg no one has said that, but there needs to be design reasons and testing on dmg. If you are dealing 7* dmg on tab and kiting so no one can ever hit you easily that is a problem. People have their head in the sand because they want a tab target mmorpg, and want anyone using action combat int he game to be nerfed.
See that is finally a decent point, took you a while to respond with one, without making stuff up that I have never said. So well done on that.
I would agree with most of it. Just running back while shooting and kiting shouldn't be a thing, you should at least need to face the target. I've linked some quotes from wiki, and they do agree to give some abilities different things based on if you are tab or action combat, though they are from a few years ago.
"Action oriented and tab oriented versions of skills will have different characteristics. Variables will change based on which version is chosen"
Only reason people are suggesting auto attacks be tab target only because they want to remove skill elements from the game because other players will be better than them. And use gear or skill when it comes to beating someone
It's because of this level of absolute Stupidity that there is no chance intrepid would ever go action.
Get this dude in a balanced arena with equal gear in Archeage or any other decent tab target game against a good player I guarantee 100% he would get absolutely destroyed. Ask this dude in what tab game he was ever rank 1 since there is no skill.
The stupidity of thinking there is no skill in tab target is beyond me, this is the kind of player that all feedback should be 100% ignored.
Quoting the man himself "Ashes won't be for everyone" and all the action andies can keep crying because as we were told once again yesterday, Ashes leans more to tab target and won't ever be an action game. Go play New World or any other aim bot infested shit show of a game.
PS: I have over 4k hours in BDO playing a perma red ninja, and prob a lot more than that in Tera, RaiderZ, C9 and the list goes on. Most people I see talk shit about tab - are not only are bad in tab but suck in action as well.
This comment is actually stupid lmfao. You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available. Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time.
Using hacks as a reason to not have gameplay is also up there is one of the most stupid comments you can make in gaming. As any element of a game can be hacked and changed, the fact you are trying to reference this as a point is actually stupid as shit. So when hackers abuse certain skill effects, or effect life skilling in some way in the future that needs to also be removed from the game. Use your head please atleast a little.
4k hours is nothing on bdo is nothing sorry to say lmao, also means nothing to the conversation.
It is common knowledge action takes more skill than tab, it is honestly just naïve of you to think skill queing and automatically hitting your target takes more skill then action.
Anyone with half a brain knows action adds another element of skill and skill cap to the game, that will go beyond TAB target in difficulty easily any day of the month. And that is why action combat needs some balance so the difficultly it scaled to reasonable levels over impossible levels.
Your comment is the type of comment that should not be listened to, they are well versed and aware of tab target combat. They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat and making sure content is balanced based on skill put in so people that are wiling to play action have some benefits for the added difficulty of actually aiming their skills then automatically hitting targets lmao.
You honestly sound like someone that is bad in action. Exactly why you don't want a benefit for additional inputs needed lmao.
Not even regarding the skill aspect of either system. Which types of MMOs have been the most fun? In my experience the best MMOs have either been tab target or a hybrid with lean more towards tab target. This could be chalked up to opinion, but generally I have yet to experience an action combat MMO that has fluid, and fun gameplay, especially in regards to PVP
There is nothing wrong with it, but people that say if you are using a auto attack that is by default more difficult in action combat can't have some sort of fair buff is insane to me.
They start to say this isn't a FPS, tab and action camera take the same amount of effort, or any other weird stuff and go crazy about hearing a buff for additional effort or reducing INSANE kiting potential for range not needing to face your target.
I never said remove tab combat, I've simply said balance for effort needed. And some of these posters are going crazy for people that say if this takes more effort i should get a buff like they have committed some grand sin for stating the obvious.
I wouldn't be against a slight flat damage increase for ranged action combat, but I would still be very against any sort of headshot mechanics. Melee action combat is whatever, it works alright in MMOs. But action range combat in MMOs tends to become an overpowered meta. To me, it doesn't matter what sort of skill it requires, in the end what matters is the games design balance, and ranged action combat tends to result in an imbalance in MMORPGs.
After further thinking, here is some feedback on what I believe could be the a happy medium amidst the whole controversy of Tab vs Action.
My proposal (to be taken and considered and further developed if needed):
- Basic attack = tab targeted
- Skills (Snipe, Aerial Assault, templated attacks) = must be aimed in action camera mode
This way you keep a basic tab target core and still have some (or all) skills requiring some level of mouse dexterity. No headshots however, that's just silly in an MMO, especially one where races have such wildly different hitboxes and sliders. We don't wanna end up in a situation like AION where people made characters the size of ants, because they'd be impossible to hit in PvP (or they'd make their head smaller to avoid headshots).
A hard lock being ON with the reticle would then only allow a skill to hit the intended target when 2 different players or mobs may be overlapping to some extent (basically not allowing the systems to erroneously select a different target when they're both within the reticle), and not being a real homing beacon for your attacks.
I believe there will be skills that need to be triggered from action mode (up to 75% of them) but we shouldn't expect hit collision like new world
You honestly don't get it, action does not take a different kind of skill.
In a mmorpg that is tab you use your skill and it hits the target if yuo are in line of sight.
In action if you use your skill it works no different than tab for just that. But you can't just use your skill you need to prediction motions, you need to dodge their attacks, you need to track them (like your camera needs to face them and not attack off screen) and more.
ACTION has more levels and there for has a lot more you need to do, and that is simply just using one SKILL. You need to consistent do that as you use multiple skills or your rotations .
You saying they are different skills is blatantly wrong, action simply ADDS more layers of skill difficulty to combat.
You are the one who doesn't get it.
The argument was about PvP tab vs action. To say PvP in tab-target is as simple as pressing a button or using a rotation, which you are constantly suggesting, is wrong.
In tab target games, you also need to predict what they're going to do, react to it, dodge/evade/block/absorb/shield the attack if possible, you also need to track them and pay attention to what they're doing and where they're going.
Those things aren't exclusive to action combat games. This just tells me that you're either trolling, or have never play tab-target games. There's probably a third option, but I don't want to say it.
Action does indeed add another layer on top, which is aiming your skills. But again, in more hybrid styled games, or even some pure tab target games, you also have some skillshots/ground target AoEs - Things Ashes will most definitely have.
Obviously aiming in action combat games is more prevalent, I'm not arguing that tab-targeting is the same.
I've already said the solution, IS has said in the past and others have said it. If you put more EFFORT into something you need to be REWARDED for that effort. Else you are adding something in people won't use and that means it isn't hybrid.
IE if you need to track someone and shoot spots and look in their direction, comapred to full spriting back and mashing attak without looking at them. It is clear AS DAMN DAY. Which is more easily and most power.
Landing every hit, seeing more surrounding easier, and MAKING KITING EXTREMELY EASY. Which means if it also gets nerfed you are giving action combat a harder time because you are balanced around tab combat when it is suppose to be hybrid.
Why is that so damn hard to understand. I don't care you are defensive about tab combat, it doesn't matter action still takes more effort it doesn't matter how much skill you think is involved with TAB, action is just more levels always. And if there is no balance around needing more effort things become obsolete GW as a perfect example.
These points on people yelling TAB TAKES SKILL does not MATTER, what matters is balance of how much a player puts in and it is more with action.
Does that mean every action skill needs to do 2* more dmg no one has said that, but there needs to be design reasons and testing on dmg. If you are dealing 7* dmg on tab and kiting so no one can ever hit you easily that is a problem. People have their head in the sand because they want a tab target mmorpg, and want anyone using action combat int he game to be nerfed.
See that is finally a decent point, took you a while to respond with one, without making stuff up that I have never said. So well done on that.
I would agree with most of it. Just running back while shooting and kiting shouldn't be a thing, you should at least need to face the target. I've linked some quotes from wiki, and they do agree to give some abilities different things based on if you are tab or action combat, though they are from a few years ago.
"Action oriented and tab oriented versions of skills will have different characteristics. Variables will change based on which version is chosen"
I am breaking down the combat to simply just the skills and how they work to land a hit.
I am not talking about everything else. As it all applies to action and tab target mmorpgs and there id difference as it is not a point for tab combat since it again applies to both them.
Tab mmorpgs movement isn't that great, ddoge is more a action element, if any tab game has actual dodging it means they are relying on action combat elements over stat skill dodge. Not a point for tab, also yes you need to know the general direction of your target, that doesn't mean you need to face them to attack them you simply just follow them. This again is not a point for tab combat, in action you have to track them with your sight and follow them, and dodge their moves physically or with stat skills.
Again if a tab game is actually using physical dodge for aoe effects, those are all action implementations into tab combat. Because action elements make the game you know, more fun.
Yes im aware AoC will have skill shots, as well had tab target skills, i have no issue ith that or even maybe in soem cases a tab skill doing more dmg than a action skill.
MY ISSUE is people freaking out about a type of consistent damage you are doing in the basic attack getting a buff for those that take the extra layer of difficulty and focus to be landing their shots while doing everything else... Why is that so hard to understand that using tab for that will give you more damage, and more kiting power?
If you argue hitting "3" on your keyboard takes more skill then "looking at some ones direction, tracking, prediciting their movement and hitting 3" is the same amount of reaction.
YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED A ACTION GAME IS YEARS. Or actually being purposely ignorant.
Now times that with all your other skills and see how that adds up.
Again. Your talk shows inexperience in tab PvP gameplay. Turning your camera and autotarget with action combat takes less thinking than assigning arena 1,2,3 target makros to your PvP opponents that change with every match. So with every match you have a different situation. while tab pvp is fast paced you cannot allow yourself to cc the wrong target. Its not like you press tab and you automatically target the right enemie. Therefore you have makros which need some training and skill to be used in the right way. If you wanna succeed in tab PvP you surely cannot be a slow minded person
Imagine talking about inexperience and bringing up a scenario no one is talking about with matches. Even if i did amuse this comment I'd say its laughable that you would have a hard time selecting someone in a arena...Those are the most easy situations to select and attack your target in tab.
This point isn't what I'm talking about, what I'm talking about is COMBAT if you are targeting this one person in area and kite back you don't need to look at them to attack you simply hit your skills and they all land.
There shouldn't be a scenario where you CC a wrong target that is impossible in a tab game....If you have issues using tab fast or selecting a target I'm unsure what to say. I've never seen a situation where someoen cc'd the wrong target in a tab game.....
These poitns you are bringing up TELL that you clearly are making up stories, and trying to discredit my experience playing TAb mmorpgs since EQ1. This is because you simply just are bias and want action combat to flop in the game, has nothing to do with design or balance. Soy ou will purposely give bad information as far as i see it.
TAB games that have added aoe effects over time is them using action elements because it adds more difficulty and fun to the game compared to tab auto target everything...It is the natural progression of mmorpgs as tab was do to technology limitations that don't exist that strongly anymore...
I agree to Iccer, its pointless to argue with you since you missread everything i write (maybe cause you dont understand it) and moreover draw wrong conclusions from it. Please annoy somebody else with your action combat bllsht...
Only reason people are suggesting auto attacks be tab target only because they want to remove skill elements from the game because other players will be better than them. And use gear or skill when it comes to beating someone
It's because of this level of absolute Stupidity that there is no chance intrepid would ever go action.
Get this dude in a balanced arena with equal gear in Archeage or any other decent tab target game against a good player I guarantee 100% he would get absolutely destroyed. Ask this dude in what tab game he was ever rank 1 since there is no skill.
The stupidity of thinking there is no skill in tab target is beyond me, this is the kind of player that all feedback should be 100% ignored.
Quoting the man himself "Ashes won't be for everyone" and all the action andies can keep crying because as we were told once again yesterday, Ashes leans more to tab target and won't ever be an action game. Go play New World or any other aim bot infested shit show of a game.
PS: I have over 4k hours in BDO playing a perma red ninja, and prob a lot more than that in Tera, RaiderZ, C9 and the list goes on. Most people I see talk shit about tab - are not only are bad in tab but suck in action as well.
This comment is actually stupid lmfao. You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available. Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time.
Using hacks as a reason to not have gameplay is also up there is one of the most stupid comments you can make in gaming. As any element of a game can be hacked and changed, the fact you are trying to reference this as a point is actually stupid as shit. So when hackers abuse certain skill effects, or effect life skilling in some way in the future that needs to also be removed from the game. Use your head please atleast a little.
4k hours is nothing on bdo is nothing sorry to say lmao, also means nothing to the conversation.
It is common knowledge action takes more skill than tab, it is honestly just naïve of you to think skill queing and automatically hitting your target takes more skill then action.
Anyone with half a brain knows action adds another element of skill and skill cap to the game, that will go beyond TAB target in difficulty easily any day of the month. And that is why action combat needs some balance so the difficultly it scaled to reasonable levels over impossible levels.
Your comment is the type of comment that should not be listened to, they are well versed and aware of tab target combat. They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat and making sure content is balanced based on skill put in so people that are wiling to play action have some benefits for the added difficulty of actually aiming their skills then automatically hitting targets lmao.
You honestly sound like someone that is bad in action. Exactly why you don't want a benefit for additional inputs needed lmao.
Not even regarding the skill aspect of either system. Which types of MMOs have been the most fun? In my experience the best MMOs have either been tab target or a hybrid with lean more towards tab target. This could be chalked up to opinion, but generally I have yet to experience an action combat MMO that has fluid, and fun gameplay, especially in regards to PVP
There is nothing wrong with it, but people that say if you are using a auto attack that is by default more difficult in action combat can't have some sort of fair buff is insane to me.
They start to say this isn't a FPS, tab and action camera take the same amount of effort, or any other weird stuff and go crazy about hearing a buff for additional effort or reducing INSANE kiting potential for range not needing to face your target.
I never said remove tab combat, I've simply said balance for effort needed. And some of these posters are going crazy for people that say if this takes more effort i should get a buff like they have committed some grand sin for stating the obvious.
I wouldn't be against a slight flat damage increase for ranged action combat, but I would still be very against any sort of headshot mechanics. Melee action combat is whatever, it works alright in MMOs. But action range combat in MMOs tends to become an overpowered meta. To me, it doesn't matter what sort of skill it requires, in the end what matters is the games design balance, and ranged action combat tends to result in an imbalance in MMORPGs.
I don't care about head shot, but a damage and movement speed increase should be a thing. More effort needs a reward. Having a reward doesn't mean you will always be doing more damage unless you are skilled enough.
IE using tab combat and landing all hits give you that 100% damage.
Using action and landing half your hits only gives you 65%-75% damage. Landing all hits gives 115%-125% damage. That doesn't mean you will be consistent landing every single hit all the time.
If kiting seems to strong and people can't do anything there should be a speed nerf that applies to tab, if tab ones are dealing that much dmg while always avoiding most dmg. And keeping he 105 speed for when you are in action since their kiting isn't as strong as a tab user. But allowing that reason to push for skilled players in short or longer and large burst.
If you argue hitting "3" on your keyboard takes more skill then "looking at some ones direction, tracking, prediciting their movement and hitting 3" is the same amount of reaction.
YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED A ACTION GAME IS YEARS. Or actually being purposely ignorant.
Now times that with all your other skills and see how that adds up.
Again. Your talk shows inexperience in tab PvP gameplay. Turning your camera and autotarget with action combat takes less thinking than assigning arena 1,2,3 target makros to your PvP opponents that change with every match. So with every match you have a different situation. while tab pvp is fast paced you cannot allow yourself to cc the wrong target. Its not like you press tab and you automatically target the right enemie. Therefore you have makros which need some training and skill to be used in the right way. If you wanna succeed in tab PvP you surely cannot be a slow minded person
Imagine talking about inexperience and bringing up a scenario no one is talking about with matches. Even if i did amuse this comment I'd say its laughable that you would have a hard time selecting someone in a arena...Those are the most easy situations to select and attack your target in tab.
This point isn't what I'm talking about, what I'm talking about is COMBAT if you are targeting this one person in area and kite back you don't need to look at them to attack you simply hit your skills and they all land.
There shouldn't be a scenario where you CC a wrong target that is impossible in a tab game....If you have issues using tab fast or selecting a target I'm unsure what to say. I've never seen a situation where someoen cc'd the wrong target in a tab game.....
These poitns you are bringing up TELL that you clearly are making up stories, and trying to discredit my experience playing TAb mmorpgs since EQ1. This is because you simply just are bias and want action combat to flop in the game, has nothing to do with design or balance. Soy ou will purposely give bad information as far as i see it.
TAB games that have added aoe effects over time is them using action elements because it adds more difficulty and fun to the game compared to tab auto target everything...It is the natural progression of mmorpgs as tab was do to technology limitations that don't exist that strongly anymore...
I agree to Iccer, its pointless to argue with you since you missread everything i write (maybe cause you dont understand it) and moreover draw wrong conclusions from it. Please annoy somebody else with your action combat bllsht...
When your point is counter so you make some some random bs because you know you are in the wrong, k bud.
Only reason people are suggesting auto attacks be tab target only because they want to remove skill elements from the game because other players will be better than them. And use gear or skill when it comes to beating someone
It's because of this level of absolute Stupidity that there is no chance intrepid would ever go action.
Get this dude in a balanced arena with equal gear in Archeage or any other decent tab target game against a good player I guarantee 100% he would get absolutely destroyed. Ask this dude in what tab game he was ever rank 1 since there is no skill.
The stupidity of thinking there is no skill in tab target is beyond me, this is the kind of player that all feedback should be 100% ignored.
Quoting the man himself "Ashes won't be for everyone" and all the action andies can keep crying because as we were told once again yesterday, Ashes leans more to tab target and won't ever be an action game. Go play New World or any other aim bot infested shit show of a game.
PS: I have over 4k hours in BDO playing a perma red ninja, and prob a lot more than that in Tera, RaiderZ, C9 and the list goes on. Most people I see talk shit about tab - are not only are bad in tab but suck in action as well.
This comment is actually stupid lmfao. You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available. Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time.
Using hacks as a reason to not have gameplay is also up there is one of the most stupid comments you can make in gaming. As any element of a game can be hacked and changed, the fact you are trying to reference this as a point is actually stupid as shit. So when hackers abuse certain skill effects, or effect life skilling in some way in the future that needs to also be removed from the game. Use your head please atleast a little.
4k hours is nothing on bdo is nothing sorry to say lmao, also means nothing to the conversation.
It is common knowledge action takes more skill than tab, it is honestly just naïve of you to think skill queing and automatically hitting your target takes more skill then action.
Anyone with half a brain knows action adds another element of skill and skill cap to the game, that will go beyond TAB target in difficulty easily any day of the month. And that is why action combat needs some balance so the difficultly it scaled to reasonable levels over impossible levels.
Your comment is the type of comment that should not be listened to, they are well versed and aware of tab target combat. They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat and making sure content is balanced based on skill put in so people that are wiling to play action have some benefits for the added difficulty of actually aiming their skills then automatically hitting targets lmao.
You honestly sound like someone that is bad in action. Exactly why you don't want a benefit for additional inputs needed lmao.
Not even regarding the skill aspect of either system. Which types of MMOs have been the most fun? In my experience the best MMOs have either been tab target or a hybrid with lean more towards tab target. This could be chalked up to opinion, but generally I have yet to experience an action combat MMO that has fluid, and fun gameplay, especially in regards to PVP
There is nothing wrong with it, but people that say if you are using a auto attack that is by default more difficult in action combat can't have some sort of fair buff is insane to me.
They start to say this isn't a FPS, tab and action camera take the same amount of effort, or any other weird stuff and go crazy about hearing a buff for additional effort or reducing INSANE kiting potential for range not needing to face your target.
I never said remove tab combat, I've simply said balance for effort needed. And some of these posters are going crazy for people that say if this takes more effort i should get a buff like they have committed some grand sin for stating the obvious.
I wouldn't be against a slight flat damage increase for ranged action combat, but I would still be very against any sort of headshot mechanics. Melee action combat is whatever, it works alright in MMOs. But action range combat in MMOs tends to become an overpowered meta. To me, it doesn't matter what sort of skill it requires, in the end what matters is the games design balance, and ranged action combat tends to result in an imbalance in MMORPGs.
I don't care about head shot, but a damage and movement speed increase should be a thing. More effort needs a reward. Having a reward doesn't mean you will always be doing more damage unless you are skilled enough.
IE using tab combat and landing all hits give you that 100% damage.
Using action and landing half your hits only gives you 65%-75% damage. Landing all hits gives 115%-125% damage. That doesn't mean you will be consistent landing every single hit all the time.
If kiting seems to strong and people can't do anything there should be a speed nerf that applies to tab, if tab ones are dealing that much dmg while always avoiding most dmg. And keeping he 105 speed for when you are in action since their kiting isn't as strong as a tab user. But allowing that reason to push for skilled players in short or longer and large burst.
who in the world lands only 50% of their shots with the bow weappon in new world? (its per hit dmg is rediculously overtuned btw)
Maybe you mean 50% of head shots?
For your concern: I used NW as an Excample since we are talking about action MMOs
Argue more like this: The average player lands about 80 to 90% of headshots in an action MMO where combat is slower than in fps games. So devs should probably lower crit dmg with action mode on, since the overall dmgoutput will be too good compared to tab combat.
Only reason people are suggesting auto attacks be tab target only because they want to remove skill elements from the game because other players will be better than them. And use gear or skill when it comes to beating someone
It's because of this level of absolute Stupidity that there is no chance intrepid would ever go action.
Get this dude in a balanced arena with equal gear in Archeage or any other decent tab target game against a good player I guarantee 100% he would get absolutely destroyed. Ask this dude in what tab game he was ever rank 1 since there is no skill.
The stupidity of thinking there is no skill in tab target is beyond me, this is the kind of player that all feedback should be 100% ignored.
Quoting the man himself "Ashes won't be for everyone" and all the action andies can keep crying because as we were told once again yesterday, Ashes leans more to tab target and won't ever be an action game. Go play New World or any other aim bot infested shit show of a game.
PS: I have over 4k hours in BDO playing a perma red ninja, and prob a lot more than that in Tera, RaiderZ, C9 and the list goes on. Most people I see talk shit about tab - are not only are bad in tab but suck in action as well.
This comment is actually stupid lmfao. You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available. Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time.
Using hacks as a reason to not have gameplay is also up there is one of the most stupid comments you can make in gaming. As any element of a game can be hacked and changed, the fact you are trying to reference this as a point is actually stupid as shit. So when hackers abuse certain skill effects, or effect life skilling in some way in the future that needs to also be removed from the game. Use your head please atleast a little.
4k hours is nothing on bdo is nothing sorry to say lmao, also means nothing to the conversation.
It is common knowledge action takes more skill than tab, it is honestly just naïve of you to think skill queing and automatically hitting your target takes more skill then action.
Anyone with half a brain knows action adds another element of skill and skill cap to the game, that will go beyond TAB target in difficulty easily any day of the month. And that is why action combat needs some balance so the difficultly it scaled to reasonable levels over impossible levels.
Your comment is the type of comment that should not be listened to, they are well versed and aware of tab target combat. They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat and making sure content is balanced based on skill put in so people that are wiling to play action have some benefits for the added difficulty of actually aiming their skills then automatically hitting targets lmao.
You honestly sound like someone that is bad in action. Exactly why you don't want a benefit for additional inputs needed lmao.
Not even regarding the skill aspect of either system. Which types of MMOs have been the most fun? In my experience the best MMOs have either been tab target or a hybrid with lean more towards tab target. This could be chalked up to opinion, but generally I have yet to experience an action combat MMO that has fluid, and fun gameplay, especially in regards to PVP
There is nothing wrong with it, but people that say if you are using a auto attack that is by default more difficult in action combat can't have some sort of fair buff is insane to me.
They start to say this isn't a FPS, tab and action camera take the same amount of effort, or any other weird stuff and go crazy about hearing a buff for additional effort or reducing INSANE kiting potential for range not needing to face your target.
I never said remove tab combat, I've simply said balance for effort needed. And some of these posters are going crazy for people that say if this takes more effort i should get a buff like they have committed some grand sin for stating the obvious.
I wouldn't be against a slight flat damage increase for ranged action combat, but I would still be very against any sort of headshot mechanics. Melee action combat is whatever, it works alright in MMOs. But action range combat in MMOs tends to become an overpowered meta. To me, it doesn't matter what sort of skill it requires, in the end what matters is the games design balance, and ranged action combat tends to result in an imbalance in MMORPGs.
I don't care about head shot, but a damage and movement speed increase should be a thing. More effort needs a reward. Having a reward doesn't mean you will always be doing more damage unless you are skilled enough.
IE using tab combat and landing all hits give you that 100% damage.
Using action and landing half your hits only gives you 65%-75% damage. Landing all hits gives 115%-125% damage. That doesn't mean you will be consistent landing every single hit all the time.
If kiting seems to strong and people can't do anything there should be a speed nerf that applies to tab, if tab ones are dealing that much dmg while always avoiding most dmg. And keeping he 105 speed for when you are in action since their kiting isn't as strong as a tab user. But allowing that reason to push for skilled players in short or longer and large burst.
I'll ask you this then. Why not just keep the entire playing field level with a hybrid system that focuses on tab basic attacks and mostly action abilities? That way everyone stays in the same set of tools to utilize their level of skill? Sure, someone may be better at range action, but your skills are defined by a games parameters. So If you are playing a game that doesn't focus on aimed action combat, that skill set is pointless to even mention. You would have to be good at aiming abilities and timing them with tab target basic attacks, thats the skillset available.
I am breaking down the combat to simply just the skills and how they work to land a hit.
I am not talking about everything else. As it all applies to action and tab target mmorpgs and there id difference as it is not a point for tab combat since it again applies to both them.
Tab mmorpgs movement isn't that great, ddoge is more a action element, if any tab game has actual dodging it means they are relying on action combat elements over stat skill dodge. Not a point for tab, also yes you need to know the general direction of your target, that doesn't mean you need to face them to attack them you simply just follow them. This again is not a point for tab combat, in action you have to track them with your sight and follow them, and dodge their moves physically or with stat skills.
Again if a tab game is actually using physical dodge for aoe effects, those are all action implementations into tab combat. Because action elements make the game you know, more fun.
Yes im aware AoC will have skill shots, as well had tab target skills, i have no issue ith that or even maybe in soem cases a tab skill doing more dmg than a action skill.
MY ISSUE is people freaking out about a type of consistent damage you are doing in the basic attack getting a buff for those that take the extra layer of difficulty and focus to be landing their shots while doing everything else... Why is that so hard to understand that using tab for that will give you more damage, and more kiting power?
Sure those are action elements, put in a tab-target game. The more action stuff you add, the closer to action it gets, at some point you call it hybrid. I'm not saying all of action combat is bad, some features are great, and could be implemented in tab-target or hybrid games to enhance gameplay. Full on action-combat though, is not something I look for in an MMORPG.
It's not hard to understand your point, I agree with some of it. The issue is you didn't bring up those points right away when you quoted me or some other people, until recently. You instead chose to cherry pick arguments, and put words into other people's mouths.
Now that you have actually pointed out stuff you have an issue with, let's discuss that.
Running away while attacking shouldn't be a thing in a game that has both action and tab target combat.
GW2 actually doesn't allow this, and you need to face your target in order to use those tab-target abilities that exist. Now I often find it annoying to deal with for some reason, especially when using those abilities in close range. Enemies do get behind you, and you have to turn around your character a lot.
My suggestions are: If the enemy is on your screen, doesn't need to be directly in front of you, could be a little bit to the side, you should be able to tag them normally with tab-target abilities.
If you are facing away from your target completely, when you attack them, either of these 2 things should happen (optionally, you could pick which one you want to use in the settings menu):
1. You simply cannot attack them, the ability doesn't go off at all
2. When you use the ability, your character turns around, and then attacks - here the speed by which the character turns and attacks, should be adjusted. Players who use action-combat style can't instantly turn around and hit the target. Edit: I'm not sure if AoC has a different animation when suddenly turning/changing directions. Something like this could be helpful. An animation of turning your character around 180 should take like 0.5 seconds to go off, after which you attack.
Both of these accomplish similar things. The main thing is that it doesn't allow you to just run around and kite people, without facing them. This is done because players who pick action-combat style wouldn't be able to do the same thing.
With this change, both players using different styles can now accomplish the same thing.
Just rough ideas, I haven't given it much thought on how it would actually work, and how annoying it would be to deal with.
Only reason people are suggesting auto attacks be tab target only because they want to remove skill elements from the game because other players will be better than them. And use gear or skill when it comes to beating someone
It's because of this level of absolute Stupidity that there is no chance intrepid would ever go action.
Get this dude in a balanced arena with equal gear in Archeage or any other decent tab target game against a good player I guarantee 100% he would get absolutely destroyed. Ask this dude in what tab game he was ever rank 1 since there is no skill.
The stupidity of thinking there is no skill in tab target is beyond me, this is the kind of player that all feedback should be 100% ignored.
Quoting the man himself "Ashes won't be for everyone" and all the action andies can keep crying because as we were told once again yesterday, Ashes leans more to tab target and won't ever be an action game. Go play New World or any other aim bot infested shit show of a game.
PS: I have over 4k hours in BDO playing a perma red ninja, and prob a lot more than that in Tera, RaiderZ, C9 and the list goes on. Most people I see talk shit about tab - are not only are bad in tab but suck in action as well.
This comment is actually stupid lmfao. You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available. Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time.
Using hacks as a reason to not have gameplay is also up there is one of the most stupid comments you can make in gaming. As any element of a game can be hacked and changed, the fact you are trying to reference this as a point is actually stupid as shit. So when hackers abuse certain skill effects, or effect life skilling in some way in the future that needs to also be removed from the game. Use your head please atleast a little.
4k hours is nothing on bdo is nothing sorry to say lmao, also means nothing to the conversation.
It is common knowledge action takes more skill than tab, it is honestly just naïve of you to think skill queing and automatically hitting your target takes more skill then action.
Anyone with half a brain knows action adds another element of skill and skill cap to the game, that will go beyond TAB target in difficulty easily any day of the month. And that is why action combat needs some balance so the difficultly it scaled to reasonable levels over impossible levels.
Your comment is the type of comment that should not be listened to, they are well versed and aware of tab target combat. They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat and making sure content is balanced based on skill put in so people that are wiling to play action have some benefits for the added difficulty of actually aiming their skills then automatically hitting targets lmao.
You honestly sound like someone that is bad in action. Exactly why you don't want a benefit for additional inputs needed lmao.
Not even regarding the skill aspect of either system. Which types of MMOs have been the most fun? In my experience the best MMOs have either been tab target or a hybrid with lean more towards tab target. This could be chalked up to opinion, but generally I have yet to experience an action combat MMO that has fluid, and fun gameplay, especially in regards to PVP
There is nothing wrong with it, but people that say if you are using a auto attack that is by default more difficult in action combat can't have some sort of fair buff is insane to me.
They start to say this isn't a FPS, tab and action camera take the same amount of effort, or any other weird stuff and go crazy about hearing a buff for additional effort or reducing INSANE kiting potential for range not needing to face your target.
I never said remove tab combat, I've simply said balance for effort needed. And some of these posters are going crazy for people that say if this takes more effort i should get a buff like they have committed some grand sin for stating the obvious.
I wouldn't be against a slight flat damage increase for ranged action combat, but I would still be very against any sort of headshot mechanics. Melee action combat is whatever, it works alright in MMOs. But action range combat in MMOs tends to become an overpowered meta. To me, it doesn't matter what sort of skill it requires, in the end what matters is the games design balance, and ranged action combat tends to result in an imbalance in MMORPGs.
I don't care about head shot, but a damage and movement speed increase should be a thing. More effort needs a reward. Having a reward doesn't mean you will always be doing more damage unless you are skilled enough.
IE using tab combat and landing all hits give you that 100% damage.
Using action and landing half your hits only gives you 65%-75% damage. Landing all hits gives 115%-125% damage. That doesn't mean you will be consistent landing every single hit all the time.
If kiting seems to strong and people can't do anything there should be a speed nerf that applies to tab, if tab ones are dealing that much dmg while always avoiding most dmg. And keeping he 105 speed for when you are in action since their kiting isn't as strong as a tab user. But allowing that reason to push for skilled players in short or longer and large burst.
who in the world lands only 50% of their shots with the bow weappon in new world? (its per hit dmg is rediculously overtuned btw)
Maybe you mean 50% of head shots?
For your concern: I used NW as an Excample since we are talking about action MMOs
Argue more like this: The average player lands about 80 to 90% of headshots in an action MMO where combat is slower than in fps games. So devs should probably lower crit dmg with action mode on, since the overall dmgoutput will be too good compared to tab combat.
You are crazy if you think people land 80-90 of head shots in a action game / shooter/ etc in pvp.
This statement shows you do not play shooters.
As far as ne world is concerned the movement in that game is not fast, it is a lot easier to land shots int he game with swaying and rolling being the main factors on dodging shots. When you have a game with a lot more fast movement, projectile time, dodge type abilities that is completely different and much more difficult than a slower pace game like New world.
People need to stop bringing up new world, combat wise that is not a standard for action combat. You gain nothing from bringing that up, that game play was built up more akin to a survival game.
This is the crazy point you are actually bringing up when tab literally lands you every hit.
Only reason people are suggesting auto attacks be tab target only because they want to remove skill elements from the game because other players will be better than them. And use gear or skill when it comes to beating someone
It's because of this level of absolute Stupidity that there is no chance intrepid would ever go action.
Get this dude in a balanced arena with equal gear in Archeage or any other decent tab target game against a good player I guarantee 100% he would get absolutely destroyed. Ask this dude in what tab game he was ever rank 1 since there is no skill.
The stupidity of thinking there is no skill in tab target is beyond me, this is the kind of player that all feedback should be 100% ignored.
Quoting the man himself "Ashes won't be for everyone" and all the action andies can keep crying because as we were told once again yesterday, Ashes leans more to tab target and won't ever be an action game. Go play New World or any other aim bot infested shit show of a game.
PS: I have over 4k hours in BDO playing a perma red ninja, and prob a lot more than that in Tera, RaiderZ, C9 and the list goes on. Most people I see talk shit about tab - are not only are bad in tab but suck in action as well.
This comment is actually stupid lmfao. You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available. Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time.
Using hacks as a reason to not have gameplay is also up there is one of the most stupid comments you can make in gaming. As any element of a game can be hacked and changed, the fact you are trying to reference this as a point is actually stupid as shit. So when hackers abuse certain skill effects, or effect life skilling in some way in the future that needs to also be removed from the game. Use your head please atleast a little.
4k hours is nothing on bdo is nothing sorry to say lmao, also means nothing to the conversation.
It is common knowledge action takes more skill than tab, it is honestly just naïve of you to think skill queing and automatically hitting your target takes more skill then action.
Anyone with half a brain knows action adds another element of skill and skill cap to the game, that will go beyond TAB target in difficulty easily any day of the month. And that is why action combat needs some balance so the difficultly it scaled to reasonable levels over impossible levels.
Your comment is the type of comment that should not be listened to, they are well versed and aware of tab target combat. They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat and making sure content is balanced based on skill put in so people that are wiling to play action have some benefits for the added difficulty of actually aiming their skills then automatically hitting targets lmao.
You honestly sound like someone that is bad in action. Exactly why you don't want a benefit for additional inputs needed lmao.
Not even regarding the skill aspect of either system. Which types of MMOs have been the most fun? In my experience the best MMOs have either been tab target or a hybrid with lean more towards tab target. This could be chalked up to opinion, but generally I have yet to experience an action combat MMO that has fluid, and fun gameplay, especially in regards to PVP
There is nothing wrong with it, but people that say if you are using a auto attack that is by default more difficult in action combat can't have some sort of fair buff is insane to me.
They start to say this isn't a FPS, tab and action camera take the same amount of effort, or any other weird stuff and go crazy about hearing a buff for additional effort or reducing INSANE kiting potential for range not needing to face your target.
I never said remove tab combat, I've simply said balance for effort needed. And some of these posters are going crazy for people that say if this takes more effort i should get a buff like they have committed some grand sin for stating the obvious.
I wouldn't be against a slight flat damage increase for ranged action combat, but I would still be very against any sort of headshot mechanics. Melee action combat is whatever, it works alright in MMOs. But action range combat in MMOs tends to become an overpowered meta. To me, it doesn't matter what sort of skill it requires, in the end what matters is the games design balance, and ranged action combat tends to result in an imbalance in MMORPGs.
I don't care about head shot, but a damage and movement speed increase should be a thing. More effort needs a reward. Having a reward doesn't mean you will always be doing more damage unless you are skilled enough.
IE using tab combat and landing all hits give you that 100% damage.
Using action and landing half your hits only gives you 65%-75% damage. Landing all hits gives 115%-125% damage. That doesn't mean you will be consistent landing every single hit all the time.
If kiting seems to strong and people can't do anything there should be a speed nerf that applies to tab, if tab ones are dealing that much dmg while always avoiding most dmg. And keeping he 105 speed for when you are in action since their kiting isn't as strong as a tab user. But allowing that reason to push for skilled players in short or longer and large burst.
I'll ask you this then. Why not just keep the entire playing field level with a hybrid system that focuses on tab basic attacks and mostly action abilities? That way everyone stays in the same set of tools to utilize their level of skill? Sure, someone may be better at range action, but your skills are defined by a games parameters. So If you are playing a game that doesn't focus on aimed action combat, that skill set is pointless to even mention. You would have to be good at aiming abilities and timing them with tab target basic attacks, thats the skillset available.
Because there is a demand for people wanting to have more investment int heir combat and for that to be rewarded with their skill. If they are giving people the choice of tab or action for basic attacks the design should make sense for either.
In the future I'd rather have that player movement be the high skill ceiling people aim towards, rather in the future if people feel ranger kiting is too strong so they just nerf it hard across the board because of tab.
Though you didn't mention this i fidn it funny about the comments about aim botters. What does that make tab target then, actually pretty much the same as aim bot.
As a player that has advocated for more tab target combat the latest combat video satisfied me alot.
You want to make a game that the masses finds fun and can play at a decent level. not a niche game where only those that are good at FPS will be able to do PvP at any decent rate.
Another problem you would definatly have ALOT of problems with would be aimbots.
There seem to be alot of New World players here that advocates for that type of combat, when a big reason why players quit New World was just becouse of the bad combat.
Also, action combat shouldnt have any advantage in terms of dmg.
I dont want a situation where groups are looking for only action combat players to maximize dmg in raids etc.
I'm kinda disappointed and Steven literally saying ''we lean more towards tab targeting'' was uh..expected but yikes anyway. Spell effects are decent and the mobility ability was cool. Other than that.....4/10 I'd say
Steven and the others have said that since start.
"If hybrid combat doesnt work and we have to choose well go with tab target" was said in one of the early QA videos.
There are a lot of things I heavily disagree with in this reply, first off Steven has said that this is not your typical MMO and that this might not be that game for you if you don't like xyz, so this isn't a game for the masses and is more of a niche game, because it's supposed to be hard and a risk vs reward game.
Second people didn't quit New World just because of the combat, they mainly quit because it was a buggy mess with little to no story or content. Now there are absolutely things they could have done better in the combat, I think muskets shouldn't have been hit scan because it can get aim botters playing.
Action combat is harder to play, if you're going to have a both up to 75% those who aim should be rewarded otherwise there is NO reason to play action combat and again you will have a GW2 situation where no one uses it, so why even implement it?
Second people didn't quit New World because of the combat, they quit because it was a buggy mess with little to no story or content. Now there are absolutely things they could have done better in the combat, I think muskets shouldn't have been hit scan because it can get aim botters playing.
"a big reason"
Not the only reason.
I know ALOT of people that quit becouse of the bad combat ontop of the boring, repetative gameplay
New World is one of the worst examples of action combat.
If AoC went that way i and many others wouldnt want to play AoC at all.
I am breaking down the combat to simply just the skills and how they work to land a hit.
I am not talking about everything else. As it all applies to action and tab target mmorpgs and there id difference as it is not a point for tab combat since it again applies to both them.
Tab mmorpgs movement isn't that great, ddoge is more a action element, if any tab game has actual dodging it means they are relying on action combat elements over stat skill dodge. Not a point for tab, also yes you need to know the general direction of your target, that doesn't mean you need to face them to attack them you simply just follow them. This again is not a point for tab combat, in action you have to track them with your sight and follow them, and dodge their moves physically or with stat skills.
Again if a tab game is actually using physical dodge for aoe effects, those are all action implementations into tab combat. Because action elements make the game you know, more fun.
Yes im aware AoC will have skill shots, as well had tab target skills, i have no issue ith that or even maybe in soem cases a tab skill doing more dmg than a action skill.
MY ISSUE is people freaking out about a type of consistent damage you are doing in the basic attack getting a buff for those that take the extra layer of difficulty and focus to be landing their shots while doing everything else... Why is that so hard to understand that using tab for that will give you more damage, and more kiting power?
Sure those are action elements, put in a tab-target game. The more action stuff you add, the closer to action it gets, at some point you call it hybrid. I'm not saying all of action combat is bad, some features are great, and could be implemented in tab-target or hybrid games to enhance gameplay. Full on action-combat though, is not something I look for in an MMORPG.
It's not hard to understand your point, I agree with some of it. The issue is you didn't bring up those points right away when you quoted me or some other people, until recently. You instead chose to cherry pick arguments, and put words into other people's mouths.
Now that you have actually pointed out stuff you have an issue with, let's discuss that.
Running away while attacking shouldn't be a thing in a game that has both action and tab target combat.
GW2 actually doesn't allow this, and you need to face your target in order to use those tab-target abilities that exist. Now I often find it annoying to deal with for some reason, especially when using those abilities in close range. Enemies do get behind you, and you have to turn around your character a lot.
My suggestions are: If the enemy is on your screen, doesn't need to be directly in front of you, could be a little bit to the side, you should be able to tag them normally with tab-target abilities.
If you are facing away from your target completely, when you attack them, either of these 2 things should happen (optionally, you could pick which one you want to use in the settings menu):
1. You simply cannot attack them, the ability doesn't go off at all
2. When you use the ability, your character turns around, and then attacks - here the speed by which the character turns and attacks, should be adjusted. Players who use action-combat style can't instantly turn around and hit the target. Edit: I'm not sure if AoC has a different animation when suddenly turning/changing directions. Something like this could be helpful. An animation of turning your character around 180 should take like 0.5 seconds to go off, after which you attack.
Both of these accomplish similar things. The main thing is that it doesn't allow you to just run around and kite people, without facing them. This is done because players who pick action-combat style wouldn't be able to do the same thing.
With this change, both players using different styles can now accomplish the same thing.
Just rough ideas, I haven't given it much thought on how it would actually work, and how annoying it would be to deal with.
If you have to face your target in tab than would be a lot closer and fair for action as action can just have a strong soft targeting, though there is a different it wouldn't be as big and would help to control making kiting too strong. Though I don't have a issue being able to attack and move at the same time as long as it is balanced in a fair way.
Both would still need to be tested in alpha of course to see effectiveness, though them saying the feeling is good at that point is a good sign. When i looked at the game play it looked fluid compared to some other games in the recent years being shown. (throne and liberty, new world, mortal online 2)
As a player that has advocated for more tab target combat the latest combat video satisfied me alot.
You want to make a game that the masses finds fun and can play at a decent level. not a niche game where only those that are good at FPS will be able to do PvP at any decent rate.
Another problem you would definatly have ALOT of problems with would be aimbots.
There seem to be alot of New World players here that advocates for that type of combat, when a big reason why players quit New World was just becouse of the bad combat.
Also, action combat shouldnt have any advantage in terms of dmg.
I dont want a situation where groups are looking for only action combat players to maximize dmg in raids etc.
Ive practised archery myself and it glad you made the arm positioning more realistic than before, good work on that. (some hold it at the eye, some at the mouth)
You generally hold the string with 3 fingers, one above the arrow and 2 bellow.
Might be to many sounds but the string also makes a "bong" sound when you shoot.
I'm kinda disappointed and Steven literally saying ''we lean more towards tab targeting'' was uh..expected but yikes anyway. Spell effects are decent and the mobility ability was cool. Other than that.....4/10 I'd say
Steven and the others have said that since start.
"If hybrid combat doesnt work and we have to choose well go with tab target" was said in one of the early QA videos.
Im unsure why you are assuming everyone is a new world player. Action combat doesn't mean its liek a FPS there is a huge difference.
A lot of things are said in development, when have they said action combat isn't working? I wouldn't go assuming that it won't work, they have great talent and I'm sure feeling and gameplay wise it is almost there and working...
Talking about something working and balance are two different things.
As far as i see they have already shown it working to a even higher level than i expected...Main do tot he fact arrows shots are projectiles and not hit scan.
Im unsure why you are assuming everyone is a new world player. Action combat doesn't mean its liek a FPS there is a huge difference.
A lot of things are said in development, when have they said action combat isn't working? I wouldn't go assuming that it won't work, they have great talent and I'm sure feeling and gameplay wise it is almost there and working...
Talking about something working and balance are two different things.
As far as i see they have already shown it working to a even higher level than i expected...Main do tot he fact arrows shots are projectiles and not hit scan.
Master of misquoting at it again i see
"if"
"alot of"
Second people didn't quit New World because of the combat, they quit because it was a buggy mess with little to no story or content. Now there are absolutely things they could have done better in the combat, I think muskets shouldn't have been hit scan because it can get aim botters playing.
"a big reason"
Not the only reason.
I know ALOT of people that quit becouse of the bad combat ontop of the boring, repetative gameplay
New World is one of the worst examples of action combat.
If AoC went that way i and many others wouldnt want to play AoC at all.
Second people didn't quit New World because of the combat, they quit because it was a buggy mess with little to no story or content. Now there are absolutely things they could have done better in the combat, I think muskets shouldn't have been hit scan because it can get aim botters playing.
"a big reason"
Not the only reason.
I know ALOT of people that quit becouse of the bad combat ontop of the boring, repetative gameplay
New World is one of the worst examples of action combat.
If AoC went that way i and many others wouldnt want to play AoC at all.
And I know quite of few people who are coming back to it because they liked the combat but it was not fun due the bugs, no content, duping that went on. This game could be similar but also better at the same time, IE having more skills, but there was nothing better than out playing your opponent in that game and absolutely destroying them because you were just mechanically better than them or launching a fireball 100 yards away and nailing someone because you aimed it. And I played a lot of New World, over 100 wars.
Second people didn't quit New World because of the combat, they quit because it was a buggy mess with little to no story or content. Now there are absolutely things they could have done better in the combat, I think muskets shouldn't have been hit scan because it can get aim botters playing.
"a big reason"
Not the only reason.
I know ALOT of people that quit becouse of the bad combat ontop of the boring, repetative gameplay
New World is one of the worst examples of action combat.
If AoC went that way i and many others wouldnt want to play AoC at all.
Only reason people are suggesting auto attacks be tab target only because they want to remove skill elements from the game because other players will be better than them. And use gear or skill when it comes to beating someone
It's because of this level of absolute Stupidity that there is no chance intrepid would ever go action.
Get this dude in a balanced arena with equal gear in Archeage or any other decent tab target game against a good player I guarantee 100% he would get absolutely destroyed. Ask this dude in what tab game he was ever rank 1 since there is no skill.
The stupidity of thinking there is no skill in tab target is beyond me, this is the kind of player that all feedback should be 100% ignored.
Quoting the man himself "Ashes won't be for everyone" and all the action andies can keep crying because as we were told once again yesterday, Ashes leans more to tab target and won't ever be an action game. Go play New World or any other aim bot infested shit show of a game.
PS: I have over 4k hours in BDO playing a perma red ninja, and prob a lot more than that in Tera, RaiderZ, C9 and the list goes on. Most people I see talk shit about tab - are not only are bad in tab but suck in action as well.
This comment is actually stupid lmfao. You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available. Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time.
Using hacks as a reason to not have gameplay is also up there is one of the most stupid comments you can make in gaming. As any element of a game can be hacked and changed, the fact you are trying to reference this as a point is actually stupid as shit. So when hackers abuse certain skill effects, or effect life skilling in some way in the future that needs to also be removed from the game. Use your head please atleast a little.
4k hours is nothing on bdo is nothing sorry to say lmao, also means nothing to the conversation.
It is common knowledge action takes more skill than tab, it is honestly just naïve of you to think skill queing and automatically hitting your target takes more skill then action.
Anyone with half a brain knows action adds another element of skill and skill cap to the game, that will go beyond TAB target in difficulty easily any day of the month. And that is why action combat needs some balance so the difficultly it scaled to reasonable levels over impossible levels.
Your comment is the type of comment that should not be listened to, they are well versed and aware of tab target combat. They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat and making sure content is balanced based on skill put in so people that are wiling to play action have some benefits for the added difficulty of actually aiming their skills then automatically hitting targets lmao.
You honestly sound like someone that is bad in action. Exactly why you don't want a benefit for additional inputs needed lmao.
Not even regarding the skill aspect of either system. Which types of MMOs have been the most fun? In my experience the best MMOs have either been tab target or a hybrid with lean more towards tab target. This could be chalked up to opinion, but generally I have yet to experience an action combat MMO that has fluid, and fun gameplay, especially in regards to PVP
There is nothing wrong with it, but people that say if you are using a auto attack that is by default more difficult in action combat can't have some sort of fair buff is insane to me.
They start to say this isn't a FPS, tab and action camera take the same amount of effort, or any other weird stuff and go crazy about hearing a buff for additional effort or reducing INSANE kiting potential for range not needing to face your target.
I never said remove tab combat, I've simply said balance for effort needed. And some of these posters are going crazy for people that say if this takes more effort i should get a buff like they have committed some grand sin for stating the obvious.
I wouldn't be against a slight flat damage increase for ranged action combat, but I would still be very against any sort of headshot mechanics. Melee action combat is whatever, it works alright in MMOs. But action range combat in MMOs tends to become an overpowered meta. To me, it doesn't matter what sort of skill it requires, in the end what matters is the games design balance, and ranged action combat tends to result in an imbalance in MMORPGs.
I don't care about head shot, but a damage and movement speed increase should be a thing. More effort needs a reward. Having a reward doesn't mean you will always be doing more damage unless you are skilled enough.
IE using tab combat and landing all hits give you that 100% damage.
Using action and landing half your hits only gives you 65%-75% damage. Landing all hits gives 115%-125% damage. That doesn't mean you will be consistent landing every single hit all the time.
If kiting seems to strong and people can't do anything there should be a speed nerf that applies to tab, if tab ones are dealing that much dmg while always avoiding most dmg. And keeping he 105 speed for when you are in action since their kiting isn't as strong as a tab user. But allowing that reason to push for skilled players in short or longer and large burst.
I'll ask you this then. Why not just keep the entire playing field level with a hybrid system that focuses on tab basic attacks and mostly action abilities? That way everyone stays in the same set of tools to utilize their level of skill? Sure, someone may be better at range action, but your skills are defined by a games parameters. So If you are playing a game that doesn't focus on aimed action combat, that skill set is pointless to even mention. You would have to be good at aiming abilities and timing them with tab target basic attacks, thats the skillset available.
Because there is a demand for people wanting to have more investment int heir combat and for that to be rewarded with their skill. If they are giving people the choice of tab or action for basic attacks the design should make sense for either.
In the future I'd rather have that player movement be the high skill ceiling people aim towards, rather in the future if people feel ranger kiting is too strong so they just nerf it hard across the board because of tab.
Though you didn't mention this i fidn it funny about the comments about aim botters. What does that make tab target then, actually pretty much the same as aim bot.
The real demand I see is for combat that is fluid, fun and satisfying. Demand for a focus on difficult or "skilled" combat design in MMO's is a pretty minor group. Sure, people want challenging content, but the majority aren't asking for a huge skill cap.
Reward for skill comes from the rewards earned by utilizing the games provided tools, reward shouldn't be increasing ones ability on top of already being better than other people. Your rewards are items and achievements for having skill with the provided systems.
Kiting will be tuned in the testing phases, so theres no reason to debuff any players for literally being at the baseline gameplay design at the moment. And nerfing tab targeting for the reasons you gave seem a bit contradictory to what you have been saying anyway. Being that, according to you, action combat should reward skill, but if you nerf tab target players you are decreasing the amount of skill required to use action combat while still wanting to reward them with benefits to using it.
And in regards to aim botting, that is a very real problem when a ranged aimed action combat system is in place, because if not everyone is able to do it, it is unfair when any other person is aim botting while others are not. If everyone is using tab targeted combat, the playing field is even.
In the end, action combat isn't a bad thing necessarily. But ranged action combat just doesn't really have a place in most great MMORPGs, especially ones going along the path of design like ashes of creation currently is.
Only reason people are suggesting auto attacks be tab target only because they want to remove skill elements from the game because other players will be better than them. And use gear or skill when it comes to beating someone
It's because of this level of absolute Stupidity that there is no chance intrepid would ever go action.
Get this dude in a balanced arena with equal gear in Archeage or any other decent tab target game against a good player I guarantee 100% he would get absolutely destroyed. Ask this dude in what tab game he was ever rank 1 since there is no skill.
The stupidity of thinking there is no skill in tab target is beyond me, this is the kind of player that all feedback should be 100% ignored.
Quoting the man himself "Ashes won't be for everyone" and all the action andies can keep crying because as we were told once again yesterday, Ashes leans more to tab target and won't ever be an action game. Go play New World or any other aim bot infested shit show of a game.
PS: I have over 4k hours in BDO playing a perma red ninja, and prob a lot more than that in Tera, RaiderZ, C9 and the list goes on. Most people I see talk shit about tab - are not only are bad in tab but suck in action as well.
This comment is actually stupid lmfao. You are trying to judge skill rotations like that doesn't exist in any kind of mmo no matter how many skills are available. Anyone can press a button and hit their skills and time things after they are aware of what to do. A grandma can do this level of content with a little bit of practice to understand what to click at the right time.
Using hacks as a reason to not have gameplay is also up there is one of the most stupid comments you can make in gaming. As any element of a game can be hacked and changed, the fact you are trying to reference this as a point is actually stupid as shit. So when hackers abuse certain skill effects, or effect life skilling in some way in the future that needs to also be removed from the game. Use your head please atleast a little.
4k hours is nothing on bdo is nothing sorry to say lmao, also means nothing to the conversation.
It is common knowledge action takes more skill than tab, it is honestly just naïve of you to think skill queing and automatically hitting your target takes more skill then action.
Anyone with half a brain knows action adds another element of skill and skill cap to the game, that will go beyond TAB target in difficulty easily any day of the month. And that is why action combat needs some balance so the difficultly it scaled to reasonable levels over impossible levels.
Your comment is the type of comment that should not be listened to, they are well versed and aware of tab target combat. They need to be listening to the people that are for action combat and making sure content is balanced based on skill put in so people that are wiling to play action have some benefits for the added difficulty of actually aiming their skills then automatically hitting targets lmao.
You honestly sound like someone that is bad in action. Exactly why you don't want a benefit for additional inputs needed lmao.
Not even regarding the skill aspect of either system. Which types of MMOs have been the most fun? In my experience the best MMOs have either been tab target or a hybrid with lean more towards tab target. This could be chalked up to opinion, but generally I have yet to experience an action combat MMO that has fluid, and fun gameplay, especially in regards to PVP
There is nothing wrong with it, but people that say if you are using a auto attack that is by default more difficult in action combat can't have some sort of fair buff is insane to me.
They start to say this isn't a FPS, tab and action camera take the same amount of effort, or any other weird stuff and go crazy about hearing a buff for additional effort or reducing INSANE kiting potential for range not needing to face your target.
I never said remove tab combat, I've simply said balance for effort needed. And some of these posters are going crazy for people that say if this takes more effort i should get a buff like they have committed some grand sin for stating the obvious.
I wouldn't be against a slight flat damage increase for ranged action combat, but I would still be very against any sort of headshot mechanics. Melee action combat is whatever, it works alright in MMOs. But action range combat in MMOs tends to become an overpowered meta. To me, it doesn't matter what sort of skill it requires, in the end what matters is the games design balance, and ranged action combat tends to result in an imbalance in MMORPGs.
I don't care about head shot, but a damage and movement speed increase should be a thing. More effort needs a reward. Having a reward doesn't mean you will always be doing more damage unless you are skilled enough.
IE using tab combat and landing all hits give you that 100% damage.
Using action and landing half your hits only gives you 65%-75% damage. Landing all hits gives 115%-125% damage. That doesn't mean you will be consistent landing every single hit all the time.
If kiting seems to strong and people can't do anything there should be a speed nerf that applies to tab, if tab ones are dealing that much dmg while always avoiding most dmg. And keeping he 105 speed for when you are in action since their kiting isn't as strong as a tab user. But allowing that reason to push for skilled players in short or longer and large burst.
I'll ask you this then. Why not just keep the entire playing field level with a hybrid system that focuses on tab basic attacks and mostly action abilities? That way everyone stays in the same set of tools to utilize their level of skill? Sure, someone may be better at range action, but your skills are defined by a games parameters. So If you are playing a game that doesn't focus on aimed action combat, that skill set is pointless to even mention. You would have to be good at aiming abilities and timing them with tab target basic attacks, thats the skillset available.
Because there is a demand for people wanting to have more investment int heir combat and for that to be rewarded with their skill. If they are giving people the choice of tab or action for basic attacks the design should make sense for either.
In the future I'd rather have that player movement be the high skill ceiling people aim towards, rather in the future if people feel ranger kiting is too strong so they just nerf it hard across the board because of tab.
Though you didn't mention this i fidn it funny about the comments about aim botters. What does that make tab target then, actually pretty much the same as aim bot.
The real demand I see is for combat that is fluid, fun and satisfying. Demand for a focus on difficult or "skilled" combat design in MMO's is a pretty minor group. Sure, people want challenging content, but the majority aren't asking for a huge skill cap.
Reward for skill comes from the rewards earned by utilizing the games provided tools, reward shouldn't be increasing ones ability on top of already being better than other people. Your rewards are items and achievements for having skill with the provided systems.
Kiting will be tuned in the testing phases, so theres no reason to debuff any players for literally being at the baseline gameplay design at the moment. And nerfing tab targeting for the reasons you gave seem a bit contradictory to what you have been saying anyway. Being that, according to you, action combat should reward skill, but if you nerf tab target players you are decreasing the amount of skill required to use action combat while still wanting to reward them with benefits to using it.
And in regards to aim botting, that is a very real problem when a ranged aimed action combat system is in place, because if not everyone is able to do it, it is unfair when any other person is aim botting while others are not. If everyone is using tab targeted combat, the playing field is even.
In the end, action combat isn't a bad thing necessarily. But ranged action combat just doesn't really have a place in most great MMORPGs, especially ones going along the path of design like ashes of creation currently is.
Don't agree with this, that is simply people wanting a easier form of combat. Action combat has a place in both ranged and melee, there is no reason for it only to be focused in one and not both.
but if you nerf tab target players you are decreasing the amount of skill required to use action combat while still wanting to reward them with benefits to using it.
This part makes no sense to me you aren't lowering the skill cap on action combat, you require the same amount of effort which is greater then tab by default.
I am surprised you are trying to argue the point on aim botting now as that is a reason for tab target all the sudden. Then ill have to bring my full argument in on all elements of hacking a reason to remove gameplay elements if hackers find ways to exploits everything,.... Hacks is not a reason to change game design.
Effectively you are saying there are hacks so we need to dumb down content so players and hackers are on the same playing field. But then hackers make their attack sped faster and just shoot faster and deal more damage... So then do we need to make things turn based?
It isn't a minor group that makes skill to be involved in their games. You could have made but point many years ago but in this current age peoples expectations nd desires for games are not the same as before. A lot of people enjoy action combat, and games can do it much better now compared to before. The many comments in this thread and the other combat thread about action combat should speak for itself.
deadmanspriceModerator, Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Mag7spy@Dolyem@Fatalmistake187@Selo as your conversation has veered away from the feedback thread, please continue your discussion here, and let others post their feedbacks there.
Please don't listen to the people asking you to make the action-combat "aimed" shots do more damage or have more range or have an extra chance to critical hit. That turns it from an alternative to tab-target into a mandatory playstyle. Most people (myself included) will not want to use whichever mode is objectively worse in terms of damage output. You won't make everyone happy, but either go all-in and make it action only or keep the two mode system the same in terms of raw damage.
As was mentioned in the livestream, there are already certain advantages you can get from the action combat mode like being able to free fire and making target selection a bit more fluid. I like the way ranged combat was presented in the livestream and I'm excited to get my hands on it to try it out.
Yeah, I definitely don't want a system where, in worst case scenario, the best way of going about combat is switching between tab targeting and reticle camera mode every few seconds.
@Mag7spy@Dolyem@Fatalmistake187@Selo as your conversation has veered away from the feedback thread, please continue your discussion here, and let others post their feedbacks there.
While this obviously got off topic, I would like to say there were a lot of positives in the graphics, sound, fluidity and overall quality of the game. I think we are all just curious where the combat will go, regardless of bias because it is a big part of the game.
Comments
YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED A ACTION GAME IS YEARS. Or actually being purposely ignorant.
Now times that with all your other skills and see how that adds up.
You honestly don't get it, action does not take a different kind of skill.
In a mmorpg that is tab you use your skill and it hits the target if yuo are in line of sight.
In action if you use your skill it works no different than tab for just that. But you can't just use your skill you need to prediction motions, you need to dodge their attacks, you need to track them (like your camera needs to face them and not attack off screen) and more.
ACTION has more levels and there for has a lot more you need to do, and that is simply just using one SKILL. You need to consistent do that as you use multiple skills or your rotations .
You saying they are different skills is blatantly wrong, action simply ADDS more layers of skill difficulty to combat.
There is nothing wrong with it, but people that say if you are using a auto attack that is by default more difficult in action combat can't have some sort of fair buff is insane to me.
They start to say this isn't a FPS, tab and action camera take the same amount of effort, or any other weird stuff and go crazy about hearing a buff for additional effort or reducing INSANE kiting potential for range not needing to face your target.
I never said remove tab combat, I've simply said balance for effort needed. And some of these posters are going crazy for people that say if this takes more effort i should get a buff like they have committed some grand sin for stating the obvious.
Again. Your talk shows inexperience in tab PvP gameplay. Turning your camera and autotarget with action combat takes less thinking than assigning arena 1,2,3 target makros to your PvP opponents that change with every match. So with every match you have a different situation. while tab pvp is fast paced you cannot allow yourself to cc the wrong target. Its not like you press tab and you automatically target the right enemie. Therefore you have makros which need some training and skill to be used in the right way. If you wanna succeed in tab PvP you surely cannot be a slow minded person
I think ppl dont understand how fast high level tab target combat actually is, cause they have never played it and its hard to understand for a gamer with no experience in this genre.
25% tab and 75% action doesn't automatically means hit collision like new world. And I believe it was said you can have 75^ of skills action oriented. In melee it basically behaves like true action combat. In range there is compromises.
It's hybrid, it takes something from both and merge it. You can still fire in action camera in general direction and if someone walks in front of your projectile you hit them, even though in the time of firing no one was there, hence it is not pure tab targeting.
I am following this game for 2 years. I also liked combat in new world. And during those 2 years I never expected action combat like new world. Just by listening to what Steven says.
I guess good thing this live streams exist so misunderstandings can be resolved and expectations adjusted.
You are the one who doesn't get it.
The argument was about PvP tab vs action. To say PvP in tab-target is as simple as pressing a button or using a rotation, which you are constantly suggesting, is wrong.
In tab target games, you also need to predict what they're going to do, react to it, dodge/evade/block/absorb/shield the attack if possible, you also need to track them and pay attention to what they're doing and where they're going.
Those things aren't exclusive to action combat games. This just tells me that you're either trolling, or have never play tab-target games. There's probably a third option, but I don't want to say it.
Action does indeed add another layer on top, which is aiming your skills. But again, in more hybrid styled games, or even some pure tab target games, you also have some skillshots/ground target AoEs - Things Ashes will most definitely have.
Obviously aiming in action combat games is more prevalent, I'm not arguing that tab-targeting is the same.
See that is finally a decent point, took you a while to respond with one, without making stuff up that I have never said. So well done on that.
I would agree with most of it. Just running back while shooting and kiting shouldn't be a thing, you should at least need to face the target. I've linked some quotes from wiki, and they do agree to give some abilities different things based on if you are tab or action combat, though they are from a few years ago.
I wouldn't be against a slight flat damage increase for ranged action combat, but I would still be very against any sort of headshot mechanics. Melee action combat is whatever, it works alright in MMOs. But action range combat in MMOs tends to become an overpowered meta. To me, it doesn't matter what sort of skill it requires, in the end what matters is the games design balance, and ranged action combat tends to result in an imbalance in MMORPGs.
I believe there will be skills that need to be triggered from action mode (up to 75% of them) but we shouldn't expect hit collision like new world
I am breaking down the combat to simply just the skills and how they work to land a hit.
I am not talking about everything else. As it all applies to action and tab target mmorpgs and there id difference as it is not a point for tab combat since it again applies to both them.
Tab mmorpgs movement isn't that great, ddoge is more a action element, if any tab game has actual dodging it means they are relying on action combat elements over stat skill dodge. Not a point for tab, also yes you need to know the general direction of your target, that doesn't mean you need to face them to attack them you simply just follow them. This again is not a point for tab combat, in action you have to track them with your sight and follow them, and dodge their moves physically or with stat skills.
Again if a tab game is actually using physical dodge for aoe effects, those are all action implementations into tab combat. Because action elements make the game you know, more fun.
Yes im aware AoC will have skill shots, as well had tab target skills, i have no issue ith that or even maybe in soem cases a tab skill doing more dmg than a action skill.
MY ISSUE is people freaking out about a type of consistent damage you are doing in the basic attack getting a buff for those that take the extra layer of difficulty and focus to be landing their shots while doing everything else... Why is that so hard to understand that using tab for that will give you more damage, and more kiting power?
I agree to Iccer, its pointless to argue with you since you missread everything i write (maybe cause you dont understand it) and moreover draw wrong conclusions from it. Please annoy somebody else with your action combat bllsht...
I don't care about head shot, but a damage and movement speed increase should be a thing. More effort needs a reward. Having a reward doesn't mean you will always be doing more damage unless you are skilled enough.
IE using tab combat and landing all hits give you that 100% damage.
Using action and landing half your hits only gives you 65%-75% damage. Landing all hits gives 115%-125% damage. That doesn't mean you will be consistent landing every single hit all the time.
If kiting seems to strong and people can't do anything there should be a speed nerf that applies to tab, if tab ones are dealing that much dmg while always avoiding most dmg. And keeping he 105 speed for when you are in action since their kiting isn't as strong as a tab user. But allowing that reason to push for skilled players in short or longer and large burst.
When your point is counter so you make some some random bs because you know you are in the wrong, k bud.
who in the world lands only 50% of their shots with the bow weappon in new world? (its per hit dmg is rediculously overtuned btw)
Maybe you mean 50% of head shots?
For your concern: I used NW as an Excample since we are talking about action MMOs
Argue more like this: The average player lands about 80 to 90% of headshots in an action MMO where combat is slower than in fps games. So devs should probably lower crit dmg with action mode on, since the overall dmgoutput will be too good compared to tab combat.
I'll ask you this then. Why not just keep the entire playing field level with a hybrid system that focuses on tab basic attacks and mostly action abilities? That way everyone stays in the same set of tools to utilize their level of skill? Sure, someone may be better at range action, but your skills are defined by a games parameters. So If you are playing a game that doesn't focus on aimed action combat, that skill set is pointless to even mention. You would have to be good at aiming abilities and timing them with tab target basic attacks, thats the skillset available.
Sure those are action elements, put in a tab-target game. The more action stuff you add, the closer to action it gets, at some point you call it hybrid. I'm not saying all of action combat is bad, some features are great, and could be implemented in tab-target or hybrid games to enhance gameplay. Full on action-combat though, is not something I look for in an MMORPG.
It's not hard to understand your point, I agree with some of it. The issue is you didn't bring up those points right away when you quoted me or some other people, until recently. You instead chose to cherry pick arguments, and put words into other people's mouths.
Now that you have actually pointed out stuff you have an issue with, let's discuss that.
Running away while attacking shouldn't be a thing in a game that has both action and tab target combat.
GW2 actually doesn't allow this, and you need to face your target in order to use those tab-target abilities that exist. Now I often find it annoying to deal with for some reason, especially when using those abilities in close range. Enemies do get behind you, and you have to turn around your character a lot.
My suggestions are: If the enemy is on your screen, doesn't need to be directly in front of you, could be a little bit to the side, you should be able to tag them normally with tab-target abilities.
If you are facing away from your target completely, when you attack them, either of these 2 things should happen (optionally, you could pick which one you want to use in the settings menu):
1. You simply cannot attack them, the ability doesn't go off at all
2. When you use the ability, your character turns around, and then attacks - here the speed by which the character turns and attacks, should be adjusted. Players who use action-combat style can't instantly turn around and hit the target. Edit: I'm not sure if AoC has a different animation when suddenly turning/changing directions. Something like this could be helpful. An animation of turning your character around 180 should take like 0.5 seconds to go off, after which you attack.
Both of these accomplish similar things. The main thing is that it doesn't allow you to just run around and kite people, without facing them. This is done because players who pick action-combat style wouldn't be able to do the same thing.
With this change, both players using different styles can now accomplish the same thing.
Just rough ideas, I haven't given it much thought on how it would actually work, and how annoying it would be to deal with.
You are crazy if you think people land 80-90 of head shots in a action game / shooter/ etc in pvp.
This statement shows you do not play shooters.
As far as ne world is concerned the movement in that game is not fast, it is a lot easier to land shots int he game with swaying and rolling being the main factors on dodging shots. When you have a game with a lot more fast movement, projectile time, dodge type abilities that is completely different and much more difficult than a slower pace game like New world.
People need to stop bringing up new world, combat wise that is not a standard for action combat. You gain nothing from bringing that up, that game play was built up more akin to a survival game.
This is the crazy point you are actually bringing up when tab literally lands you every hit.
Because there is a demand for people wanting to have more investment int heir combat and for that to be rewarded with their skill. If they are giving people the choice of tab or action for basic attacks the design should make sense for either.
In the future I'd rather have that player movement be the high skill ceiling people aim towards, rather in the future if people feel ranger kiting is too strong so they just nerf it hard across the board because of tab.
Though you didn't mention this i fidn it funny about the comments about aim botters. What does that make tab target then, actually pretty much the same as aim bot.
There are a lot of things I heavily disagree with in this reply, first off Steven has said that this is not your typical MMO and that this might not be that game for you if you don't like xyz, so this isn't a game for the masses and is more of a niche game, because it's supposed to be hard and a risk vs reward game.
Second people didn't quit New World just because of the combat, they mainly quit because it was a buggy mess with little to no story or content. Now there are absolutely things they could have done better in the combat, I think muskets shouldn't have been hit scan because it can get aim botters playing.
Action combat is harder to play, if you're going to have a both up to 75% those who aim should be rewarded otherwise there is NO reason to play action combat and again you will have a GW2 situation where no one uses it, so why even implement it?
"a big reason"
Not the only reason.
I know ALOT of people that quit becouse of the bad combat ontop of the boring, repetative gameplay
New World is one of the worst examples of action combat.
If AoC went that way i and many others wouldnt want to play AoC at all.
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
If you have to face your target in tab than would be a lot closer and fair for action as action can just have a strong soft targeting, though there is a different it wouldn't be as big and would help to control making kiting too strong. Though I don't have a issue being able to attack and move at the same time as long as it is balanced in a fair way.
Both would still need to be tested in alpha of course to see effectiveness, though them saying the feeling is good at that point is a good sign. When i looked at the game play it looked fluid compared to some other games in the recent years being shown. (throne and liberty, new world, mortal online 2)
Im unsure why you are assuming everyone is a new world player. Action combat doesn't mean its liek a FPS there is a huge difference.
A lot of things are said in development, when have they said action combat isn't working? I wouldn't go assuming that it won't work, they have great talent and I'm sure feeling and gameplay wise it is almost there and working...
Talking about something working and balance are two different things.
As far as i see they have already shown it working to a even higher level than i expected...Main do tot he fact arrows shots are projectiles and not hit scan.
Master of misquoting at it again i see
"if"
"alot of"
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
I didnt say this o.o
And I know quite of few people who are coming back to it because they liked the combat but it was not fun due the bugs, no content, duping that went on. This game could be similar but also better at the same time, IE having more skills, but there was nothing better than out playing your opponent in that game and absolutely destroying them because you were just mechanically better than them or launching a fireball 100 yards away and nailing someone because you aimed it. And I played a lot of New World, over 100 wars.
They were replying to me :P
The real demand I see is for combat that is fluid, fun and satisfying. Demand for a focus on difficult or "skilled" combat design in MMO's is a pretty minor group. Sure, people want challenging content, but the majority aren't asking for a huge skill cap.
Reward for skill comes from the rewards earned by utilizing the games provided tools, reward shouldn't be increasing ones ability on top of already being better than other people. Your rewards are items and achievements for having skill with the provided systems.
Kiting will be tuned in the testing phases, so theres no reason to debuff any players for literally being at the baseline gameplay design at the moment. And nerfing tab targeting for the reasons you gave seem a bit contradictory to what you have been saying anyway. Being that, according to you, action combat should reward skill, but if you nerf tab target players you are decreasing the amount of skill required to use action combat while still wanting to reward them with benefits to using it.
And in regards to aim botting, that is a very real problem when a ranged aimed action combat system is in place, because if not everyone is able to do it, it is unfair when any other person is aim botting while others are not. If everyone is using tab targeted combat, the playing field is even.
In the end, action combat isn't a bad thing necessarily. But ranged action combat just doesn't really have a place in most great MMORPGs, especially ones going along the path of design like ashes of creation currently is.
Don't agree with this, that is simply people wanting a easier form of combat. Action combat has a place in both ranged and melee, there is no reason for it only to be focused in one and not both.
This part makes no sense to me you aren't lowering the skill cap on action combat, you require the same amount of effort which is greater then tab by default.
I am surprised you are trying to argue the point on aim botting now as that is a reason for tab target all the sudden. Then ill have to bring my full argument in on all elements of hacking a reason to remove gameplay elements if hackers find ways to exploits everything,.... Hacks is not a reason to change game design.
Effectively you are saying there are hacks so we need to dumb down content so players and hackers are on the same playing field. But then hackers make their attack sped faster and just shoot faster and deal more damage... So then do we need to make things turn based?
It isn't a minor group that makes skill to be involved in their games. You could have made but point many years ago but in this current age peoples expectations nd desires for games are not the same as before. A lot of people enjoy action combat, and games can do it much better now compared to before. The many comments in this thread and the other combat thread about action combat should speak for itself.
Yeah, I definitely don't want a system where, in worst case scenario, the best way of going about combat is switching between tab targeting and reticle camera mode every few seconds.
While this obviously got off topic, I would like to say there were a lot of positives in the graphics, sound, fluidity and overall quality of the game. I think we are all just curious where the combat will go, regardless of bias because it is a big part of the game.