What Major mmorpgs have de-targeting where its a common thing besides invisibility.
I have a better question, what major mmo is a pvp tab target one? Did AA have detargeting? Cause I feel like that's the only other tab pvp mmo out there.
I'm fairly sure there were retargeting mechanics in Archeage, but they wouldn't be all that effective, as you dont really need a target for most builds.
EQ2 also had detargeting for its PvP - and a detarget would also hold your target and/or prevent you from acquiring another target. Again though, many classes didnt need a target at all to function - melee, for example, would just hit who ever was in front of you (just like an action game).
Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab.
This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do).
While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations".
Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective.
This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying.
Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player.
It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about.
You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill".
The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through.
We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill.
What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind.
Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location).
All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games.
However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking").
While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay.
To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games.
It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this.
However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above.
Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic.
Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab.
This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do).
While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations".
Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective.
This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying.
Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player.
It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about.
You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill".
The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through.
We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill.
What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind.
Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location).
All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games.
However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking").
While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay.
To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games.
It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this.
However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above.
Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic.
As I literally just said, and have always said, it takes more physical skill (aiming and such), but takes less thought, or mental skill.
To then say action combat requires more skill is to minimize the importance of mental skill - thought and knowledge.
Again, due to the amount of this needed in top.end tab target games, it means over all skill level in most tab target games is on par or higher than most action games - it is just a different type of skill.
Again though, my issue here is in you seeming to suggest that knowledge and thinking are not skills at all, which is what you suggested and caused my first reply.
Like, I get that you dont value knowledge at all, it's very clear you go out of your way to not know things, or to ever learn things. That doesnt mean knowing and learning isn't a skill though - it's just one you dont have, which seems to be why you downplay its importance in tab target games.
I will start witht he most basic example I can do and we can go from there. What is more fun
1. A game where you can press a key and it causes your character to automatically walk up to your target and attack to use your skill. (requiring nothing of you but to press the button)
2. You walk you walk up to the target and press your ability and attempt to hit the target which it can attempt to move away from your attack
If someone preferred option one there isn't much else for me to say so id just leave it at that. If option 2 I'd say because the person feels it is more immersed and requires effort over the game playing for you.
So the next question would be why is that more enjoy able, and how to incorporate that into a mmorpg. With a history of that being the came with the genre over the years.
That's a really shallow comparison my dude.
It is breaking down gameplay at a basic level to start to explain things. It is meant to be shallow. When that element is talked about then more can continue. Simply typing a giant page isn't going to be digested well.
But it's not exactly an accurate comparison.
Your statement would be the same as me saying an RTS game is more realistic than a turn based strategy game therefore turn based doesn't need as much skill. They're two different approaches to the same thing that each have their own merits.
Don't understand why it has to be an all or nothing action combat vs tab target debate. Have both options like is currently available but give an incentive to use the action target system because it requires more precise input from the user and to reward "skill" in precision.
Something in the range of a 10% damage/crit/heal/or dmg reduction buff would be enough to satisfy most users of an action system and make it feel rewarding to actually use. Or give bonuses to DPS classes for hitting certain critical spots on opponents (headshots, weak spots), give incoming attacks a direction so tanks get more damage reduction by blocking in the correct direction (something like For Honor's combat), healers could also have "critical spots" to heal for a bonus (if the target gets hit in a critical spot, it could be highlighted and would recieve a bigger heal if the healer uses an aimable skill on it)
Content should still be balanced around a tab targeting system, but the players who go the more difficult route should be rewarded.
Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab.
This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do).
While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations".
Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective.
This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying.
Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player.
It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about.
You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill".
The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through.
We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill.
What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind.
Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location).
All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games.
However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking").
While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay.
To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games.
It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this.
However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above.
Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic.
As I literally just said, and have always said, it takes more physical skill (aiming and such), but takes less thought, or mental skill.
To then say action combat requires more skill is to minimize the importance of mental skill - thought and knowledge.
Again, due to the amount of this needed in top.end tab target games, it means over all skill level in most tab target games is on par or higher than most action games - it is just a different type of skill.
Again though, my issue here is in you seeming to suggest that knowledge and thinking are not skills at all, which is what you suggested and caused my first reply.
Like, I get that you dont value knowledge at all, it's very clear you go out of your way to not know things, or to ever learn things. That doesnt mean knowing and learning isn't a skill though - it's just one you dont have, which seems to be why you downplay its importance in tab target games.
no by your own statement as id said multiple times as well action is more skill because its an additional layer on top of every what what you do with tab. So all those skill effects, rotations, etc all apply to action by default ontop of NEEDING the "physical skill"
So no tab does not require more skill, it requires less than action because it has a big skill element missing compared to what action has. Meaning action has infinitely more potential of difficulty and complexity based on how hard they want the game to be on multiple levels.
Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab.
This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do).
While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations".
Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective.
This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying.
Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player.
It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about.
You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill".
The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through.
We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill.
What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind.
Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location).
All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games.
However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking").
While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay.
To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games.
It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this.
However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above.
Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic.
As I literally just said, and have always said, it takes more physical skill (aiming and such), but takes less thought, or mental skill.
To then say action combat requires more skill is to minimize the importance of mental skill - thought and knowledge.
Again, due to the amount of this needed in top.end tab target games, it means over all skill level in most tab target games is on par or higher than most action games - it is just a different type of skill.
Again though, my issue here is in you seeming to suggest that knowledge and thinking are not skills at all, which is what you suggested and caused my first reply.
Like, I get that you dont value knowledge at all, it's very clear you go out of your way to not know things, or to ever learn things. That doesnt mean knowing and learning isn't a skill though - it's just one you dont have, which seems to be why you downplay its importance in tab target games.
no by your own statement as id said multiple times as well action is more skill because its an additional layer on top of every what what you do with tab. So all those skill effects, rotations, etc all apply to action by default ontop of NEEDING the "physical skill"
So no tab does not require more skill, it requires less than action because it has a big skill element missing compared to what action has. Meaning action has infinitely more potential of difficulty and complexity based on how hard they want the game to be on multiple levels.
Technically they are the exact same amount of skill because developers design for the information conveyance cap which is whatever FPS the game runs at.
You know this.
Just assume that Tab games get to the cap differently, like fast Fighting Games do (I'm assuming you played at least one of these sometime).
Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab.
This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do).
While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations".
Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective.
This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying.
Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player.
It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about.
You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill".
The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through.
We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill.
What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind.
Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location).
All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games.
However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking").
While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay.
To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games.
It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this.
However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above.
Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic.
As I literally just said, and have always said, it takes more physical skill (aiming and such), but takes less thought, or mental skill.
To then say action combat requires more skill is to minimize the importance of mental skill - thought and knowledge.
Again, due to the amount of this needed in top.end tab target games, it means over all skill level in most tab target games is on par or higher than most action games - it is just a different type of skill.
Again though, my issue here is in you seeming to suggest that knowledge and thinking are not skills at all, which is what you suggested and caused my first reply.
Like, I get that you dont value knowledge at all, it's very clear you go out of your way to not know things, or to ever learn things. That doesnt mean knowing and learning isn't a skill though - it's just one you dont have, which seems to be why you downplay its importance in tab target games.
no by your own statement as id said multiple times as well action is more skill because its an additional layer on top of every what what you do with tab. So all those skill effects, rotations, etc all apply to action by default ontop of NEEDING the "physical skill"
So no tab does not require more skill, it requires less than action because it has a big skill element missing compared to what action has. Meaning action has infinitely more potential of difficulty and complexity based on how hard they want the game to be on multiple levels.
Technically they are the exact same amount of skill because developers design for the information conveyance cap which is whatever FPS the game runs at.
You know this.
Just assume that Tab games get to the cap differently, like fast Fighting Games do (I'm assuming you played at least one of these sometime).
Don't agree with this there at all or about caps especially when it comes to tab target games. Even more so if you have 40+ skills, I highly doubt they had caps thought in mind. Also the reason why Noaani and others want trackers because the difficulty is too much for them to figure out on their own.
Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab.
This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do).
While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations".
Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective.
This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying.
Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player.
It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about.
You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill".
The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through.
We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill.
What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind.
Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location).
All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games.
However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking").
While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay.
To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games.
It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this.
However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above.
Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic.
As I literally just said, and have always said, it takes more physical skill (aiming and such), but takes less thought, or mental skill.
To then say action combat requires more skill is to minimize the importance of mental skill - thought and knowledge.
Again, due to the amount of this needed in top.end tab target games, it means over all skill level in most tab target games is on par or higher than most action games - it is just a different type of skill.
Again though, my issue here is in you seeming to suggest that knowledge and thinking are not skills at all, which is what you suggested and caused my first reply.
Like, I get that you dont value knowledge at all, it's very clear you go out of your way to not know things, or to ever learn things. That doesnt mean knowing and learning isn't a skill though - it's just one you dont have, which seems to be why you downplay its importance in tab target games.
no by your own statement as id said multiple times as well action is more skill because its an additional layer on top of every what what you do with tab. So all those skill effects, rotations, etc all apply to action by default ontop of NEEDING the "physical skill"
So no tab does not require more skill, it requires less than action because it has a big skill element missing compared to what action has. Meaning action has infinitely more potential of difficulty and complexity based on how hard they want the game to be on multiple levels.
Technically they are the exact same amount of skill because developers design for the information conveyance cap which is whatever FPS the game runs at.
You know this.
Just assume that Tab games get to the cap differently, like fast Fighting Games do (I'm assuming you played at least one of these sometime).
Don't agree with this there at all or about caps especially when it comes to tab target games. Even more so if you have 40+ skills, I highly doubt they had caps thought in mind. Also the reason why Noaani and others want trackers because the difficulty is too much for them to figure out on their own.
Edit* as well as people relying on other add ons.
I don't understand what this has to do with anything, I was referencing fast and complex Fighting Games, right?
My character in Under-Night has like 60 moves/options from neutral... I'm not sure if you're trying to say that 40 isn't enough so the cap isn't high enough for Tab?
Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab.
This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do).
While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations".
Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective.
This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying.
Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player.
It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about.
You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill".
The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through.
We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill.
What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind.
Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location).
All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games.
However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking").
While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay.
To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games.
It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this.
However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above.
Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic.
As I literally just said, and have always said, it takes more physical skill (aiming and such), but takes less thought, or mental skill.
To then say action combat requires more skill is to minimize the importance of mental skill - thought and knowledge.
Again, due to the amount of this needed in top.end tab target games, it means over all skill level in most tab target games is on par or higher than most action games - it is just a different type of skill.
Again though, my issue here is in you seeming to suggest that knowledge and thinking are not skills at all, which is what you suggested and caused my first reply.
Like, I get that you dont value knowledge at all, it's very clear you go out of your way to not know things, or to ever learn things. That doesnt mean knowing and learning isn't a skill though - it's just one you dont have, which seems to be why you downplay its importance in tab target games.
no by your own statement as id said multiple times as well action is more skill because its an additional layer on top of every what what you do with tab. So all those skill effects, rotations, etc all apply to action by default ontop of NEEDING the "physical skill"
So no tab does not require more skill, it requires less than action because it has a big skill element missing compared to what action has. Meaning action has infinitely more potential of difficulty and complexity based on how hard they want the game to be on multiple levels.
Technically they are the exact same amount of skill because developers design for the information conveyance cap which is whatever FPS the game runs at.
You know this.
Just assume that Tab games get to the cap differently, like fast Fighting Games do (I'm assuming you played at least one of these sometime).
Don't agree with this there at all or about caps especially when it comes to tab target games. Even more so if you have 40+ skills, I highly doubt they had caps thought in mind. Also the reason why Noaani and others want trackers because the difficulty is too much for them to figure out on their own.
Edit* as well as people relying on other add ons.
I don't understand what this has to do with anything, I was referencing fast and complex Fighting Games, right?
My character in Under-Night has like 60 moves/options from neutral... I'm not sure if you're trying to say that 40 isn't enough so the cap isn't high enough for Tab?
I'm saying regardless of whatever caps are placed you are using both skills compared to only one. So if you have access to a bunch of skills the same way you would any mmorpg be it tab or action and have the action element as well and challenges. By default a Action mmorpg is going to take more skill by his logic. Since action wise you are going to have the highest element of what comes with that and the additional challenges. On top of everything you can do with all your skills.
If you took a tab target mmorpg and made every skill action based for needing to aim, track, dodge, etc instantly the game takes far more skill than it did before.
Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab.
This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do).
While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations".
Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective.
This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying.
Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player.
It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about.
You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill".
The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through.
We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill.
What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind.
Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location).
All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games.
However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking").
While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay.
To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games.
It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this.
However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above.
Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic.
As I literally just said, and have always said, it takes more physical skill (aiming and such), but takes less thought, or mental skill.
To then say action combat requires more skill is to minimize the importance of mental skill - thought and knowledge.
Again, due to the amount of this needed in top.end tab target games, it means over all skill level in most tab target games is on par or higher than most action games - it is just a different type of skill.
Again though, my issue here is in you seeming to suggest that knowledge and thinking are not skills at all, which is what you suggested and caused my first reply.
Like, I get that you dont value knowledge at all, it's very clear you go out of your way to not know things, or to ever learn things. That doesnt mean knowing and learning isn't a skill though - it's just one you dont have, which seems to be why you downplay its importance in tab target games.
no by your own statement as id said multiple times as well action is more skill because its an additional layer on top of every what what you do with tab. So all those skill effects, rotations, etc all apply to action by default ontop of NEEDING the "physical skill"
So no tab does not require more skill, it requires less than action because it has a big skill element missing compared to what action has. Meaning action has infinitely more potential of difficulty and complexity based on how hard they want the game to be on multiple levels.
Technically they are the exact same amount of skill because developers design for the information conveyance cap which is whatever FPS the game runs at.
You know this.
Just assume that Tab games get to the cap differently, like fast Fighting Games do (I'm assuming you played at least one of these sometime).
Don't agree with this there at all or about caps especially when it comes to tab target games. Even more so if you have 40+ skills, I highly doubt they had caps thought in mind. Also the reason why Noaani and others want trackers because the difficulty is too much for them to figure out on their own.
Edit* as well as people relying on other add ons.
I don't understand what this has to do with anything, I was referencing fast and complex Fighting Games, right?
My character in Under-Night has like 60 moves/options from neutral... I'm not sure if you're trying to say that 40 isn't enough so the cap isn't high enough for Tab?
I'm saying regardless of whatever caps are placed you are using both skills compared to only one. So if you have access to a bunch of skills the same way you would any mmorpg be it tab or action and have the action element as well and challenges. By default a Action mmorpg is going to take more skill by his logic. Since action wise you are going to have the highest element of what comes with that and the additional challenges. On top of everything you can do with all your skills.
If you took a tab target mmorpg and made every skill action based for needing to aim, track, dodge, etc instantly the game takes far more skill than it did before.
Right, I was just trying to figure out what you meant by the 40 skills thing, sorry.
I'm saying they take EQUAL amounts of skill because depending on the speed of information reaching you, you have to make the same number of decisions, and the speed of information for making those decisions is limited by the literal FPS of the game (and some human limits, but let's just be ridiculous and act like most humans can make 60 decisions per second)
So if a Tab Target game causes you to make the same number of decisions, and press the same amount of buttons, in the same amount of time, the skills are just different. It COULDN'T go to Action then, there would literally be no time left to press anything.
Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab.
This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do).
While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations".
Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective.
This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying.
Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player.
It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about.
You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill".
The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through.
We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill.
What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind.
Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location).
All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games.
However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking").
While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay.
To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games.
It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this.
However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above.
Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic.
As I literally just said, and have always said, it takes more physical skill (aiming and such), but takes less thought, or mental skill.
To then say action combat requires more skill is to minimize the importance of mental skill - thought and knowledge.
Again, due to the amount of this needed in top.end tab target games, it means over all skill level in most tab target games is on par or higher than most action games - it is just a different type of skill.
Again though, my issue here is in you seeming to suggest that knowledge and thinking are not skills at all, which is what you suggested and caused my first reply.
Like, I get that you dont value knowledge at all, it's very clear you go out of your way to not know things, or to ever learn things. That doesnt mean knowing and learning isn't a skill though - it's just one you dont have, which seems to be why you downplay its importance in tab target games.
no by your own statement as id said multiple times as well action is more skill because its an additional layer on top of every what what you do with tab. So all those skill effects, rotations, etc all apply to action by default ontop of NEEDING the "physical skill"
So no tab does not require more skill, it requires less than action because it has a big skill element missing compared to what action has. Meaning action has infinitely more potential of difficulty and complexity based on how hard they want the game to be on multiple levels.
Technically they are the exact same amount of skill because developers design for the information conveyance cap which is whatever FPS the game runs at.
You know this.
Just assume that Tab games get to the cap differently, like fast Fighting Games do (I'm assuming you played at least one of these sometime).
Don't agree with this there at all or about caps especially when it comes to tab target games. Even more so if you have 40+ skills, I highly doubt they had caps thought in mind. Also the reason why Noaani and others want trackers because the difficulty is too much for them to figure out on their own.
Edit* as well as people relying on other add ons.
I don't understand what this has to do with anything, I was referencing fast and complex Fighting Games, right?
My character in Under-Night has like 60 moves/options from neutral... I'm not sure if you're trying to say that 40 isn't enough so the cap isn't high enough for Tab?
I'm saying regardless of whatever caps are placed you are using both skills compared to only one. So if you have access to a bunch of skills the same way you would any mmorpg be it tab or action and have the action element as well and challenges. By default a Action mmorpg is going to take more skill by his logic. Since action wise you are going to have the highest element of what comes with that and the additional challenges. On top of everything you can do with all your skills.
If you took a tab target mmorpg and made every skill action based for needing to aim, track, dodge, etc instantly the game takes far more skill than it did before.
Right, I was just trying to figure out what you meant by the 40 skills thing, sorry.
I'm saying they take EQUAL amounts of skill because depending on the speed of information reaching you, you have to make the same number of decisions, and the speed of information for making those decisions is limited by the literal FPS of the game (and some human limits, but let's just be ridiculous and act like most humans can make 60 decisions per second)
So if a Tab Target game causes you to make the same number of decisions, and press the same amount of buttons, in the same amount of time, the skills are just different. It COULDN'T go to Action then, there would literally be no time left to press anything.
Can we just agree you aren't making 60 decisions a second on a tab game, like lets be a little realistic.
Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab.
This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do).
While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations".
Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective.
This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying.
Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player.
It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about.
You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill".
The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through.
We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill.
What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind.
Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location).
All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games.
However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking").
While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay.
To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games.
It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this.
However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above.
Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic.
As I literally just said, and have always said, it takes more physical skill (aiming and such), but takes less thought, or mental skill.
To then say action combat requires more skill is to minimize the importance of mental skill - thought and knowledge.
Again, due to the amount of this needed in top.end tab target games, it means over all skill level in most tab target games is on par or higher than most action games - it is just a different type of skill.
Again though, my issue here is in you seeming to suggest that knowledge and thinking are not skills at all, which is what you suggested and caused my first reply.
Like, I get that you dont value knowledge at all, it's very clear you go out of your way to not know things, or to ever learn things. That doesnt mean knowing and learning isn't a skill though - it's just one you dont have, which seems to be why you downplay its importance in tab target games.
no by your own statement as id said multiple times as well action is more skill because its an additional layer on top of every what what you do with tab. So all those skill effects, rotations, etc all apply to action by default ontop of NEEDING the "physical skill"
So no tab does not require more skill, it requires less than action because it has a big skill element missing compared to what action has. Meaning action has infinitely more potential of difficulty and complexity based on how hard they want the game to be on multiple levels.
Technically they are the exact same amount of skill because developers design for the information conveyance cap which is whatever FPS the game runs at.
You know this.
Just assume that Tab games get to the cap differently, like fast Fighting Games do (I'm assuming you played at least one of these sometime).
Don't agree with this there at all or about caps especially when it comes to tab target games. Even more so if you have 40+ skills, I highly doubt they had caps thought in mind. Also the reason why Noaani and others want trackers because the difficulty is too much for them to figure out on their own.
Edit* as well as people relying on other add ons.
I don't understand what this has to do with anything, I was referencing fast and complex Fighting Games, right?
My character in Under-Night has like 60 moves/options from neutral... I'm not sure if you're trying to say that 40 isn't enough so the cap isn't high enough for Tab?
I'm saying regardless of whatever caps are placed you are using both skills compared to only one. So if you have access to a bunch of skills the same way you would any mmorpg be it tab or action and have the action element as well and challenges. By default a Action mmorpg is going to take more skill by his logic. Since action wise you are going to have the highest element of what comes with that and the additional challenges. On top of everything you can do with all your skills.
If you took a tab target mmorpg and made every skill action based for needing to aim, track, dodge, etc instantly the game takes far more skill than it did before.
Right, I was just trying to figure out what you meant by the 40 skills thing, sorry.
I'm saying they take EQUAL amounts of skill because depending on the speed of information reaching you, you have to make the same number of decisions, and the speed of information for making those decisions is limited by the literal FPS of the game (and some human limits, but let's just be ridiculous and act like most humans can make 60 decisions per second)
So if a Tab Target game causes you to make the same number of decisions, and press the same amount of buttons, in the same amount of time, the skills are just different. It COULDN'T go to Action then, there would literally be no time left to press anything.
Can we just agree you aren't making 60 decisions a second on a tab game, like lets be a little realistic.
Yes of course, sorry for the hyperbole. Good players make 10 or so decisions per second I think it is? Double recognition?
(I'm not sure if you're just saying 'no Tab games ever make humans hit their max decisions per second', and I don't want to assume, please clarify if you are saying that)
Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab.
This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do).
While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations".
Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective.
This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying.
Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player.
It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about.
You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill".
The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through.
We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill.
What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind.
Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location).
All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games.
However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking").
While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay.
To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games.
It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this.
However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above.
Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic.
As I literally just said, and have always said, it takes more physical skill (aiming and such), but takes less thought, or mental skill.
To then say action combat requires more skill is to minimize the importance of mental skill - thought and knowledge.
Again, due to the amount of this needed in top.end tab target games, it means over all skill level in most tab target games is on par or higher than most action games - it is just a different type of skill.
Again though, my issue here is in you seeming to suggest that knowledge and thinking are not skills at all, which is what you suggested and caused my first reply.
Like, I get that you dont value knowledge at all, it's very clear you go out of your way to not know things, or to ever learn things. That doesnt mean knowing and learning isn't a skill though - it's just one you dont have, which seems to be why you downplay its importance in tab target games.
no by your own statement as id said multiple times as well action is more skill because its an additional layer on top of every what what you do with tab. So all those skill effects, rotations, etc all apply to action by default ontop of NEEDING the "physical skill"
So no tab does not require more skill, it requires less than action because it has a big skill element missing compared to what action has. Meaning action has infinitely more potential of difficulty and complexity based on how hard they want the game to be on multiple levels.
Technically they are the exact same amount of skill because developers design for the information conveyance cap which is whatever FPS the game runs at.
You know this.
Just assume that Tab games get to the cap differently, like fast Fighting Games do (I'm assuming you played at least one of these sometime).
Don't agree with this there at all or about caps especially when it comes to tab target games. Even more so if you have 40+ skills, I highly doubt they had caps thought in mind. Also the reason why Noaani and others want trackers because the difficulty is too much for them to figure out on their own.
Edit* as well as people relying on other add ons.
I don't understand what this has to do with anything, I was referencing fast and complex Fighting Games, right?
My character in Under-Night has like 60 moves/options from neutral... I'm not sure if you're trying to say that 40 isn't enough so the cap isn't high enough for Tab?
I'm saying regardless of whatever caps are placed you are using both skills compared to only one. So if you have access to a bunch of skills the same way you would any mmorpg be it tab or action and have the action element as well and challenges. By default a Action mmorpg is going to take more skill by his logic. Since action wise you are going to have the highest element of what comes with that and the additional challenges. On top of everything you can do with all your skills.
If you took a tab target mmorpg and made every skill action based for needing to aim, track, dodge, etc instantly the game takes far more skill than it did before.
Right, I was just trying to figure out what you meant by the 40 skills thing, sorry.
I'm saying they take EQUAL amounts of skill because depending on the speed of information reaching you, you have to make the same number of decisions, and the speed of information for making those decisions is limited by the literal FPS of the game (and some human limits, but let's just be ridiculous and act like most humans can make 60 decisions per second)
So if a Tab Target game causes you to make the same number of decisions, and press the same amount of buttons, in the same amount of time, the skills are just different. It COULDN'T go to Action then, there would literally be no time left to press anything.
Can we just agree you aren't making 60 decisions a second on a tab game, like lets be a little realistic.
Yes of course, sorry for the hyperbole. Good players make 10 or so decisions per second I think it is? Double recognition?
(I'm not sure if you're just saying 'no Tab games ever make humans hit their max decisions per second', and I don't want to assume, please clarify if you are saying that)
Lets say we are talking about in a competitive 1v1 sense. And we can also use a competitive 5v5 sense as well.
Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab.
This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do).
While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations".
Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective.
This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying.
Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player.
It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about.
You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill".
The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through.
We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill.
What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind.
Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location).
All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games.
However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking").
While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay.
To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games.
It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this.
However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above.
Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic.
As I literally just said, and have always said, it takes more physical skill (aiming and such), but takes less thought, or mental skill.
To then say action combat requires more skill is to minimize the importance of mental skill - thought and knowledge.
Again, due to the amount of this needed in top.end tab target games, it means over all skill level in most tab target games is on par or higher than most action games - it is just a different type of skill.
Again though, my issue here is in you seeming to suggest that knowledge and thinking are not skills at all, which is what you suggested and caused my first reply.
Like, I get that you dont value knowledge at all, it's very clear you go out of your way to not know things, or to ever learn things. That doesnt mean knowing and learning isn't a skill though - it's just one you dont have, which seems to be why you downplay its importance in tab target games.
no by your own statement as id said multiple times as well action is more skill because its an additional layer on top of every what what you do with tab. So all those skill effects, rotations, etc all apply to action by default ontop of NEEDING the "physical skill"
So no tab does not require more skill, it requires less than action because it has a big skill element missing compared to what action has. Meaning action has infinitely more potential of difficulty and complexity based on how hard they want the game to be on multiple levels.
Technically they are the exact same amount of skill because developers design for the information conveyance cap which is whatever FPS the game runs at.
You know this.
Just assume that Tab games get to the cap differently, like fast Fighting Games do (I'm assuming you played at least one of these sometime).
Don't agree with this there at all or about caps especially when it comes to tab target games. Even more so if you have 40+ skills, I highly doubt they had caps thought in mind. Also the reason why Noaani and others want trackers because the difficulty is too much for them to figure out on their own.
Edit* as well as people relying on other add ons.
I don't understand what this has to do with anything, I was referencing fast and complex Fighting Games, right?
My character in Under-Night has like 60 moves/options from neutral... I'm not sure if you're trying to say that 40 isn't enough so the cap isn't high enough for Tab?
I'm saying regardless of whatever caps are placed you are using both skills compared to only one. So if you have access to a bunch of skills the same way you would any mmorpg be it tab or action and have the action element as well and challenges. By default a Action mmorpg is going to take more skill by his logic. Since action wise you are going to have the highest element of what comes with that and the additional challenges. On top of everything you can do with all your skills.
If you took a tab target mmorpg and made every skill action based for needing to aim, track, dodge, etc instantly the game takes far more skill than it did before.
Right, I was just trying to figure out what you meant by the 40 skills thing, sorry.
I'm saying they take EQUAL amounts of skill because depending on the speed of information reaching you, you have to make the same number of decisions, and the speed of information for making those decisions is limited by the literal FPS of the game (and some human limits, but let's just be ridiculous and act like most humans can make 60 decisions per second)
So if a Tab Target game causes you to make the same number of decisions, and press the same amount of buttons, in the same amount of time, the skills are just different. It COULDN'T go to Action then, there would literally be no time left to press anything.
Can we just agree you aren't making 60 decisions a second on a tab game, like lets be a little realistic.
Yes of course, sorry for the hyperbole. Good players make 10 or so decisions per second I think it is? Double recognition?
(I'm not sure if you're just saying 'no Tab games ever make humans hit their max decisions per second', and I don't want to assume, please clarify if you are saying that)
Lets say we are talking about in a competitive 1v1 sense. And we can also use a competitive 5v5 sense as well.
Well, as NiKr pointed out, most Tab Target games are PvE mostly, but I would like to not go down this specific path unless you are going to not just be dismissive and say 'prove it' or 'lol no it isn't' if I say Lineage 2, ArcheAge, and EQ2.
I feel like you're twisting my words to make a different point, but maybe not? Can we agree that ArcheAge, at LEAST, can make a player hit max decisions per second?
EDIT: Here's a video I guess. I don't know how good this player is, Noaani is the ArcheAge PvP master around here.
@Azherae At what point in that video as you doing 60 decisions per second. Like at 3:10 that does not look that complex. Goes in does their skills, seems pretty straight forward does not look like anyone would be overloaded with too much to do and decide.
*Though i wouldn't say this game is hybrid it does have action elements to it.
@Azherae At what point in that video as you doing 60 decisions per second. Like at 3:10 that does not look that complex. Goes in does their skills, seems pretty straight forward does not look like anyone would be overloaded with too much to do and decide.
*Though i wouldn't say this game is hybrid it does have action elements to it.
Sorry, again, I have downgraded that to 10 per second. I shouldn't use hyperbole here.
So the movement, retargeting, and the aiming of the abilities isn't equivalent? To me, 5:03 definitely looks like gets close, especially since you have to pay attention to all the information coming up about buffs that are ending.
Their movement and camera movement also don't look simple or random.
I don't think I could find a video of a game where someone was overloaded, that's kind of my point? That would just be bad design, right? I'm moreso asking what you feel would need to be ADDED to this to make it more skilled.
@Azherae At what point in that video as you doing 60 decisions per second. Like at 3:10 that does not look that complex. Goes in does their skills, seems pretty straight forward does not look like anyone would be overloaded with too much to do and decide.
*Though i wouldn't say this game is hybrid it does have action elements to it.
Sorry, again, I have downgraded that to 10 per second. I shouldn't use hyperbole here.
So the movement, retargeting, and the aiming of the abilities isn't equivalent? To me, 5:03 definitely looks like gets close, especially since you have to pay attention to all the information coming up about buffs that are ending.
Their movement and camera movement also don't look simple or random.
I don't think I could find a video of a game where someone was overloaded, that's kind of my point? That would just be bad design, right? I'm moreso asking what you feel would need to be ADDED to this to make it more skilled.
If i got your earlier point correctly you were saying that the game is having the person work at max capacity with decisions in a tab game so it isn't possible to make it more difficult by having more action heavy elements to it?
My point is i don't feel in action or tab you are being overloaded (though especially in tab though). So there though be room to add other layers on top of that action element wise and there for having the game take more skill.
For the small amount of time I played AA I'm aware they have some actiony elements to the game but not enough where you can say it is hybrid of course. So there is more meaning to adjust your views at times would be my understanding. Also don't believe its like older mmorpgs like ever quest where game turns for you and some amount of direction matters (but i could be wrong about that).
Skill wise Id say more action elements and action camera to land your projectiles on people over just selecting them and every one of them lands on them (and any other range skills as well) over the one click and you are good, it will require you to track.
This game does have a higher element of skill to it than most tab games with the mobility. Though personally I'd like to see movement matter a little more as something feels off and not as grounded but I think that is the tab element.
For the 5min mark honestly looks pretty standard for me for a faster paced tab target game and the person having their go to skills and rotations they do.
Buffs i honestly don't think you are going to be trying to pay attention to every buff on every person, if you are looking for key buffs and understand them if they have a huge impact on who you are targeting maybe that is about it.
If you have debuff skills available in that game that is something you would use, but looking at buff when you can't do anything about them isn't going to change the gameplay. Even more so when there are like 20 different buffs on one person, you would be wasting time focusing on that when you can spend your focus else where better.
Lets use an example where you need to focus on buffs and the game has like 30 between buffs and debuffs on a player, id argue that isn't good gameplay then by that point. As your eyes are being taken off the action when that focus can be used in a much more fun way. This same kind of tons of buffs can apply to any other game as well tab or action based.
Basically the game is centered around fps mechanics/aiming-skill etc, you greatly invalidate the progression of gear throughout the game.
Why does my gear matter, if some greatly skilled shooter player can just kill me through better mouse skills? Why then would I care to do dungeons and raids, if all the loot from it is invalidated?
Not to count the issue of ping and lag. How am I to headshot people if when I click on their head, the skill comes out delayed and my target rubberbands so hard it dodges it?
As it stands, though the combat has tab targeting elements, spells and arrows are projectile based. Meaning they don't curve to follow the player.
Monsters having spells who can track you, makes sense to me, as it incentivizes the progression of your character through leveling and gear acquisition. If you could dodge everything and never get hit, the gameplay would become boring, as the stakes would grow lower and lower, and the pace of the combat not keeping up, would render the moment to moment combat boring. It would need to become something like BDO to keep you engaged, or else it becomes a sluggish and uninteresting.
And please dear gods old and new, don't give us BDO combat. BDO needed that combat, because if it had given you WoW or even New World combat, the game would have quickly been thrown down the garbage chute, as the immense flaws and travesti of an MMO (more a single player game tbh) would become apparent.
The current Hybrid nature of the combat in Ashes feels to me like a perfect amalgam of what both camps are looking for, despite each camp desiring their own extreme of the spectrum.
@Azherae At what point in that video as you doing 60 decisions per second. Like at 3:10 that does not look that complex. Goes in does their skills, seems pretty straight forward does not look like anyone would be overloaded with too much to do and decide.
*Though i wouldn't say this game is hybrid it does have action elements to it.
Sorry, again, I have downgraded that to 10 per second. I shouldn't use hyperbole here.
So the movement, retargeting, and the aiming of the abilities isn't equivalent? To me, 5:03 definitely looks like gets close, especially since you have to pay attention to all the information coming up about buffs that are ending.
Their movement and camera movement also don't look simple or random.
I don't think I could find a video of a game where someone was overloaded, that's kind of my point? That would just be bad design, right? I'm moreso asking what you feel would need to be ADDED to this to make it more skilled.
If i got your earlier point correctly you were saying that the game is having the person work at max capacity with decisions in a tab game so it isn't possible to make it more difficult by having more action heavy elements to it?
My point is i don't feel in action or tab you are being overloaded (though especially in tab though). So there though be room to add other layers on top of that action element wise and there for having the game take more skill.
For the small amount of time I played AA I'm aware they have some actiony elements to the game but not enough where you can say it is hybrid of course. So there is more meaning to adjust your views at times would be my understanding. Also don't believe its like older mmorpgs like ever quest where game turns for you and some amount of direction matters (but i could be wrong about that).
Skill wise Id say more action elements and action camera to land your projectiles on people over just selecting them and every one of them lands on them (and any other range skills as well) over the one click and you are good, it will require you to track.
This game does have a higher element of skill to it than most tab games with the mobility. Though personally I'd like to see movement matter a little more as something feels off and not as grounded but I think that is the tab element.
For the 5min mark honestly looks pretty standard for me for a faster paced tab target game and the person having their go to skills and rotations they do.
Buffs i honestly don't think you are going to be trying to pay attention to every buff on every person, if you are looking for key buffs and understand them if they have a huge impact on who you are targeting maybe that is about it.
If you have debuff skills available in that game that is something you would use, but looking at buff when you can't do anything about them isn't going to change the gameplay. Even more so when there are like 20 different buffs on one person, you would be wasting time focusing on that when you can spend your focus else where better.
Lets use an example where you need to focus on buffs and the game has like 30 between buffs and debuffs on a player, id argue that isn't good gameplay then by that point. As your eyes are being taken off the action when that focus can be used in a much more fun way. This same kind of tons of buffs can apply to any other game as well tab or action based.
Thank you, I feel I understand better now.
I personally enjoy games with lots of buffs like Lineage and ArcheAge, it is part of why I'm here, because I feel like Steven probably also does (but I don't know, maybe that will be one of the parts of those games that he does not recreate).
I enjoy the thinking and timing and coordination with others that these things provide. But your perspective is now clear to me.
Basically the game is centered around fps mechanics/aiming-skill etc, you greatly invalidate the progression of gear throughout the game.
Why does my gear matter, if some greatly skilled shooter player can just kill me through better mouse skills? Why then would I care to do dungeons and raids, if all the loot from it is invalidated?
Not to count the issue of ping and lag. How am I to headshot people if when I click on their head, the skill comes out delayed and my target rubberbands so hard it dodges it?
As it stands, though the combat has tab targeting elements, spells and arrows are projectile based. Meaning they don't curve to follow the player.
Monsters having spells who can track you, makes sense to me, as it incentivizes the progression of your character through leveling and gear acquisition. If you could dodge everything and never get hit, the gameplay would become boring, as the stakes would grow lower and lower, and the pace of the combat not keeping up, would render the moment to moment combat boring. It would need to become something like BDO to keep you engaged, or else it becomes a sluggish and uninteresting.
And please dear gods old and new, don't give us BDO combat. BDO needed that combat, because if it had given you WoW or even New World combat, the game would have quickly been thrown down the garbage chute, as the immense flaws and travesti of an MMO (more a single player game tbh) would become apparent.
The current Hybrid nature of the combat in Ashes feels to me like a perfect amalgam of what both camps are looking for, despite each camp desiring their own extreme of the spectrum.
no gear = you get 1 shotted. gear is basically how many mistakes you can make, or you are able to do damage.
agree on ping but its probably better than having a bunch of archers clicking you and pressing f1 at the same time and you dying with no way of avoiding it or no counter play. you simply die because someone on voip said your name or everybody assisted the main dd.
projectiles can still curve and track the player ;3
Basically the game is centered around fps mechanics/aiming-skill etc, you greatly invalidate the progression of gear throughout the game.
Why does my gear matter, if some greatly skilled shooter player can just kill me through better mouse skills? Why then would I care to do dungeons and raids, if all the loot from it is invalidated?
Not to count the issue of ping and lag. How am I to headshot people if when I click on their head, the skill comes out delayed and my target rubberbands so hard it dodges it?
As it stands, though the combat has tab targeting elements, spells and arrows are projectile based. Meaning they don't curve to follow the player.
Monsters having spells who can track you, makes sense to me, as it incentivizes the progression of your character through leveling and gear acquisition. If you could dodge everything and never get hit, the gameplay would become boring, as the stakes would grow lower and lower, and the pace of the combat not keeping up, would render the moment to moment combat boring. It would need to become something like BDO to keep you engaged, or else it becomes a sluggish and uninteresting.
And please dear gods old and new, don't give us BDO combat. BDO needed that combat, because if it had given you WoW or even New World combat, the game would have quickly been thrown down the garbage chute, as the immense flaws and travesti of an MMO (more a single player game tbh) would become apparent.
The current Hybrid nature of the combat in Ashes feels to me like a perfect amalgam of what both camps are looking for, despite each camp desiring their own extreme of the spectrum.
Unsure where this is coming from, I've never mention head shots. Gear matters, but so does skill and outplay potential as it adds more depth to the game. One shouldn't be able to miss every attack, soft lock is meant to be if you are looking towards them you will hit them and should have a general happy aim assist. Though it can exist sometimes they don't need an extreme precise aiming for it to have action combat.
I don't believe blocking, dodges, or simply having action combat make a game like BDO until you turn up the speed to *5
I expect projectiles to curve towards player like it does with the mobs skills from what I saw. And curve in soft lock or tab target. Honestly i don't view that as a issue. Though they should make them to be dodged at far range.
no by your own statement as id said multiple times as well action is more skill because its an additional layer on top of every what what you do with tab. So all those skill effects, rotations, etc all apply to action by default ontop of NEEDING the "physical skill".
But it isn't an additional layer - thats the thing.
Action games don't have the same requirement to make decisions as a tab target game does - not at the top end at least. That is kind of the point of tab target - it is all about decision making.
In terms of decision making, action combat is like playing checkers, while tab target is like playing 4D chess.
I mean, you are correct if you want to talk about theory - an action game COULD require that same level of decision making. This isn't a point I would argue - my argument is that none of them actually do.
The problem with this argument is that the same can then apply to tab target games. All tab target games that I've played require you to be facing your target. Some of them have an arc of around 60°, so it isn't really a thing you even need to know, let alone think about. However, some games have as little as 15°. This is already making aiming more important here than in an action game as a melee character.
The thing is, if we are going to talk about action games and how they COULD make decision making as important as it is in tab target games, then we can also talk about how a tab target game COULD lower that targeting arc to be less than 1° - in both axis. This would make a tab target game where aiming is as important as it is in an action game.
However, since there are no games that actually DO this - just as there are no action games that actually make decision making as important as it is in tab target - I don't talk about this much.
So, if you want to continue to claim that decision making is as important in action combat as it is in tab due to the fact that a game technically could exist where this is the case, then I will claim that aiming is as important in tab target games because it technically could exist.
Or, we could both agree that since neither of these games actually exist, we will refrain from talking about either of them. This is my personal preference, but I am happy to throw this decision to you to make for both of us.
The tab vs action conflict just never ends, doesn't it?
"Which one requires more skill?"
"Which one is more fast paced?"
"Which one is the best?"
Some people just doesn't seem to get that it simple depends, there are Action combat games way slower and that require way less skill and in many other ways is simple worst than many tab combat games and vice-versa.
The games people played and the ones they didn't makes that bias pretty clear on this topic.
The games people played and the ones they didn't makes that bias pretty clear on this topic.
and more simply... personnal taste.
as said, there is not "the skill" but "skills" a RTS or a turnbased is not "one superior to other" but simply different thing, requiring their players different mindset, capacity and skills.
This is why i also think that this debate is useless... and overall the polls shows that large majority of people just want a good gameplay, not a specific one (even if they prefer one to other)
no by your own statement as id said multiple times as well action is more skill because its an additional layer on top of every what what you do with tab. So all those skill effects, rotations, etc all apply to action by default ontop of NEEDING the "physical skill".
But it isn't an additional layer - thats the thing.
Action games don't have the same requirement to make decisions as a tab target game does - not at the top end at least. That is kind of the point of tab target - it is all about decision making.
In terms of decision making, action combat is like playing checkers, while tab target is like playing 4D chess.
I mean, you are correct if you want to talk about theory - an action game COULD require that same level of decision making. This isn't a point I would argue - my argument is that none of them actually do.
The problem with this argument is that the same can then apply to tab target games. All tab target games that I've played require you to be facing your target. Some of them have an arc of around 60°, so it isn't really a thing you even need to know, let alone think about. However, some games have as little as 15°. This is already making aiming more important here than in an action game as a melee character.
The thing is, if we are going to talk about action games and how they COULD make decision making as important as it is in tab target games, then we can also talk about how a tab target game COULD lower that targeting arc to be less than 1° - in both axis. This would make a tab target game where aiming is as important as it is in an action game.
However, since there are no games that actually DO this - just as there are no action games that actually make decision making as important as it is in tab target - I don't talk about this much.
So, if you want to continue to claim that decision making is as important in action combat as it is in tab due to the fact that a game technically could exist where this is the case, then I will claim that aiming is as important in tab target games because it technically could exist.
Or, we could both agree that since neither of these games actually exist, we will refrain from talking about either of them. This is my personal preference, but I am happy to throw this decision to you to make for both of us.
I'll follow your lead on this one.
In everquest you do not need to face your target, the game auto faces your target for you so that is incorrect. There is a big different between facing your target and the game doing it for you.
Tab is not like 4d chess tab is pretty simply and extend to just your understanding of the game. Action mmorpgs are having a understanding of the game and having the skill.
1. You can take all tab skills and make them action oriented
2. That means the entire depth will always be higher than tab for the additional layers that are added
3. More gameplay elements and challenges available
Decision making is not more important than tab nor more in depth than a action game, action games have infinite for difficulty and decision making that can be added. Which is easily done by having more challenges on screen and further increasing the mobility and reaction abilities and physical effect abilities. in a way tab just doesn't do.
If you played BDO on a higher level you would have realized there are action mmorpgs games where you need to make plenty of decisions and need to pick the best one. Regardless if you realize or accept other games it doesn't really matter because tab games can be made into action ones and that layer of depth is added.
The way you incorrectly look at action elements is kind of naïve years + quantity of mmorpgs has given tab plenty of time and grow from the click to move era. The same thing is going to be applied to action combat in mmorpgs as it is still young, but every new game is pushing it further immensely (minus new world). There is a reason why people prefer action combat and its only a matter of time before that becomes the standard. More than likely will be when riots mmorpg comes out 4-7 years down the line.
here 2 polls prove that it is not true, "some people" around 50 to 60% prefer action. and most of them (at least 80% of them) can totally enjoy a game in tab target system.
What are your source to say that "people", which, in your sentence, feels like "large majority of mmorpg players" ?
Doing claims is fine, like all you did already without any proof, but at some point you should try to learn that this is often more complex than black and white...
about all "action can do same but better, so action is future" history of video game, prove it wrong... we can still find many different gameplay, and the oldest one are still used in modern games... because it is simply other way to enjoy games. again ... not a "modernity is better" neither a "tradition is better" but simply question of taste.
here 2 polls prove that it is not true, "some people" around 50 to 60% prefer action. and most of them (at least 80% of them) can totally enjoy a game in tab target system.
What are your source to say that "people", which, in your sentence, feels like "large majority of mmorpg players" ?
Doing claims is fine, like all you did already without any proof, but at some point you should try to learn that this is often more complex than black and white...
about all "action can do same but better, so action is future" history of video game, prove it wrong... we can still find many different gameplay, and the oldest one are still used in modern games... because it is simply other way to enjoy games. again ... not a "modernity is better" neither a "tradition is better" but simply question of taste.
This is a blatant lie, if we are going to go by the polls with the smaller sample size that is fine.
This means you need to take what they are saying and what they prefer, in one of them more people prefer action by a small margin. In the other poll people prefer action combat by a large margin.
What you are doing here is being like "They said they will play anything so 90% till will enjoy tab so its the majority". While ignoring the preference leaning of the poll. People prefer action combat, it doesn't matter if you don't like it, based on the polls that reality is already showing.
In the most skewed poll you had
22% preferring tab+ only wanting tab combined
61% preferring + only wanting action combined
It doesn't matter how much you scream and kick this is the reality based on you wanting to go by polls as proof.
People play old games of different types, that has 0 to do the direction of games in the future. If we are going by history of mmorpgs the direction has always been towards action as tab was do to limited design. From some of the oldest games in tab to know they have been adding more and more action elements as design limitations are being passed and so they can work on implementation in mmorpg style gameplay.
Unless you want to ignore how mmorpgs started and the action elements being added to the games over the years.
@Mag7spy would you consider it more skillful if tab abilities didn't curve and instead required 1-2° precision of where your character was facing, but the character would also very slowly turn towards the target if it was laterally moving? And projectile itself could hit anywhere within a 5° angle of its direction, but not outside of that.
So smth like this.
In order to even activate a tab skill your character gotta be facing your target directly. Then at the moment of use of the ability, there's a 5° angle within which the target could move and still get hit. But if the target moves outside of those 5° - they avoid the attack.
The speed of turning would have to depend on basic speed of movement across all archetypes and races. If a character moves at the speed of, say, 60° a second (at the longest possible range of ranged attacks and abilities), I'd say that character turn speed should be ~20° a second. In other words, 1/3 of the lateral movement speed.
This way the tab targeting still helps people aim at their targets, but the attacks themselves work way closer to action abilities than the usual tab ones (no hardcore 90° turns of flying projectiles). If the target is barely moving to the side, ranged abilities will still be tracking them fairly well, but if the target is at top speeds or is way closer to the attacker - the attacker would have to manually adjust their character's direction in order to even be able to use a tab ability.
This would also boost melee fighting, cause you can just dance around your stationary target and they'd have hard time hitting you, which would make them move more and with more thought. Obviously melee tab abilities (if there even are any) would have a bit wider activation angle, though that could be tested.
@Azherae@Noaani I'd be interested in hearing your opinions on a system like this too. I'm obviously super biased cause I'm used to this, so hearing opinions of less-action-combat-inclined people would be good.
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I'm fairly sure there were retargeting mechanics in Archeage, but they wouldn't be all that effective, as you dont really need a target for most builds.
EQ2 also had detargeting for its PvP - and a detarget would also hold your target and/or prevent you from acquiring another target. Again though, many classes didnt need a target at all to function - melee, for example, would just hit who ever was in front of you (just like an action game).
Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic.
As I literally just said, and have always said, it takes more physical skill (aiming and such), but takes less thought, or mental skill.
To then say action combat requires more skill is to minimize the importance of mental skill - thought and knowledge.
Again, due to the amount of this needed in top.end tab target games, it means over all skill level in most tab target games is on par or higher than most action games - it is just a different type of skill.
Again though, my issue here is in you seeming to suggest that knowledge and thinking are not skills at all, which is what you suggested and caused my first reply.
Like, I get that you dont value knowledge at all, it's very clear you go out of your way to not know things, or to ever learn things. That doesnt mean knowing and learning isn't a skill though - it's just one you dont have, which seems to be why you downplay its importance in tab target games.
But it's not exactly an accurate comparison.
Your statement would be the same as me saying an RTS game is more realistic than a turn based strategy game therefore turn based doesn't need as much skill. They're two different approaches to the same thing that each have their own merits.
Something in the range of a 10% damage/crit/heal/or dmg reduction buff would be enough to satisfy most users of an action system and make it feel rewarding to actually use. Or give bonuses to DPS classes for hitting certain critical spots on opponents (headshots, weak spots), give incoming attacks a direction so tanks get more damage reduction by blocking in the correct direction (something like For Honor's combat), healers could also have "critical spots" to heal for a bonus (if the target gets hit in a critical spot, it could be highlighted and would recieve a bigger heal if the healer uses an aimable skill on it)
Content should still be balanced around a tab targeting system, but the players who go the more difficult route should be rewarded.
no by your own statement as id said multiple times as well action is more skill because its an additional layer on top of every what what you do with tab. So all those skill effects, rotations, etc all apply to action by default ontop of NEEDING the "physical skill"
So no tab does not require more skill, it requires less than action because it has a big skill element missing compared to what action has. Meaning action has infinitely more potential of difficulty and complexity based on how hard they want the game to be on multiple levels.
Technically they are the exact same amount of skill because developers design for the information conveyance cap which is whatever FPS the game runs at.
You know this.
Just assume that Tab games get to the cap differently, like fast Fighting Games do (I'm assuming you played at least one of these sometime).
Don't agree with this there at all or about caps especially when it comes to tab target games. Even more so if you have 40+ skills, I highly doubt they had caps thought in mind. Also the reason why Noaani and others want trackers because the difficulty is too much for them to figure out on their own.
Edit* as well as people relying on other add ons.
I don't understand what this has to do with anything, I was referencing fast and complex Fighting Games, right?
My character in Under-Night has like 60 moves/options from neutral... I'm not sure if you're trying to say that 40 isn't enough so the cap isn't high enough for Tab?
I'm saying regardless of whatever caps are placed you are using both skills compared to only one. So if you have access to a bunch of skills the same way you would any mmorpg be it tab or action and have the action element as well and challenges. By default a Action mmorpg is going to take more skill by his logic. Since action wise you are going to have the highest element of what comes with that and the additional challenges. On top of everything you can do with all your skills.
If you took a tab target mmorpg and made every skill action based for needing to aim, track, dodge, etc instantly the game takes far more skill than it did before.
Right, I was just trying to figure out what you meant by the 40 skills thing, sorry.
I'm saying they take EQUAL amounts of skill because depending on the speed of information reaching you, you have to make the same number of decisions, and the speed of information for making those decisions is limited by the literal FPS of the game (and some human limits, but let's just be ridiculous and act like most humans can make 60 decisions per second)
So if a Tab Target game causes you to make the same number of decisions, and press the same amount of buttons, in the same amount of time, the skills are just different. It COULDN'T go to Action then, there would literally be no time left to press anything.
Can we just agree you aren't making 60 decisions a second on a tab game, like lets be a little realistic.
Yes of course, sorry for the hyperbole. Good players make 10 or so decisions per second I think it is? Double recognition?
(I'm not sure if you're just saying 'no Tab games ever make humans hit their max decisions per second', and I don't want to assume, please clarify if you are saying that)
Lets say we are talking about in a competitive 1v1 sense. And we can also use a competitive 5v5 sense as well.
Well, as NiKr pointed out, most Tab Target games are PvE mostly, but I would like to not go down this specific path unless you are going to not just be dismissive and say 'prove it' or 'lol no it isn't' if I say Lineage 2, ArcheAge, and EQ2.
I feel like you're twisting my words to make a different point, but maybe not? Can we agree that ArcheAge, at LEAST, can make a player hit max decisions per second?
EDIT: Here's a video I guess. I don't know how good this player is, Noaani is the ArcheAge PvP master around here.
*Though i wouldn't say this game is hybrid it does have action elements to it.
Sorry, again, I have downgraded that to 10 per second. I shouldn't use hyperbole here.
So the movement, retargeting, and the aiming of the abilities isn't equivalent? To me, 5:03 definitely looks like gets close, especially since you have to pay attention to all the information coming up about buffs that are ending.
Their movement and camera movement also don't look simple or random.
I don't think I could find a video of a game where someone was overloaded, that's kind of my point? That would just be bad design, right? I'm moreso asking what you feel would need to be ADDED to this to make it more skilled.
If i got your earlier point correctly you were saying that the game is having the person work at max capacity with decisions in a tab game so it isn't possible to make it more difficult by having more action heavy elements to it?
My point is i don't feel in action or tab you are being overloaded (though especially in tab though). So there though be room to add other layers on top of that action element wise and there for having the game take more skill.
For the small amount of time I played AA I'm aware they have some actiony elements to the game but not enough where you can say it is hybrid of course. So there is more meaning to adjust your views at times would be my understanding. Also don't believe its like older mmorpgs like ever quest where game turns for you and some amount of direction matters (but i could be wrong about that).
Skill wise Id say more action elements and action camera to land your projectiles on people over just selecting them and every one of them lands on them (and any other range skills as well) over the one click and you are good, it will require you to track.
This game does have a higher element of skill to it than most tab games with the mobility. Though personally I'd like to see movement matter a little more as something feels off and not as grounded but I think that is the tab element.
For the 5min mark honestly looks pretty standard for me for a faster paced tab target game and the person having their go to skills and rotations they do.
Buffs i honestly don't think you are going to be trying to pay attention to every buff on every person, if you are looking for key buffs and understand them if they have a huge impact on who you are targeting maybe that is about it.
If you have debuff skills available in that game that is something you would use, but looking at buff when you can't do anything about them isn't going to change the gameplay. Even more so when there are like 20 different buffs on one person, you would be wasting time focusing on that when you can spend your focus else where better.
Lets use an example where you need to focus on buffs and the game has like 30 between buffs and debuffs on a player, id argue that isn't good gameplay then by that point. As your eyes are being taken off the action when that focus can be used in a much more fun way. This same kind of tons of buffs can apply to any other game as well tab or action based.
Why does my gear matter, if some greatly skilled shooter player can just kill me through better mouse skills? Why then would I care to do dungeons and raids, if all the loot from it is invalidated?
Not to count the issue of ping and lag. How am I to headshot people if when I click on their head, the skill comes out delayed and my target rubberbands so hard it dodges it?
As it stands, though the combat has tab targeting elements, spells and arrows are projectile based. Meaning they don't curve to follow the player.
Monsters having spells who can track you, makes sense to me, as it incentivizes the progression of your character through leveling and gear acquisition. If you could dodge everything and never get hit, the gameplay would become boring, as the stakes would grow lower and lower, and the pace of the combat not keeping up, would render the moment to moment combat boring. It would need to become something like BDO to keep you engaged, or else it becomes a sluggish and uninteresting.
And please dear gods old and new, don't give us BDO combat. BDO needed that combat, because if it had given you WoW or even New World combat, the game would have quickly been thrown down the garbage chute, as the immense flaws and travesti of an MMO (more a single player game tbh) would become apparent.
The current Hybrid nature of the combat in Ashes feels to me like a perfect amalgam of what both camps are looking for, despite each camp desiring their own extreme of the spectrum.
Thank you, I feel I understand better now.
I personally enjoy games with lots of buffs like Lineage and ArcheAge, it is part of why I'm here, because I feel like Steven probably also does (but I don't know, maybe that will be one of the parts of those games that he does not recreate).
I enjoy the thinking and timing and coordination with others that these things provide. But your perspective is now clear to me.
no gear = you get 1 shotted. gear is basically how many mistakes you can make, or you are able to do damage.
agree on ping but its probably better than having a bunch of archers clicking you and pressing f1 at the same time and you dying with no way of avoiding it or no counter play. you simply die because someone on voip said your name or everybody assisted the main dd.
projectiles can still curve and track the player ;3
Unsure where this is coming from, I've never mention head shots. Gear matters, but so does skill and outplay potential as it adds more depth to the game. One shouldn't be able to miss every attack, soft lock is meant to be if you are looking towards them you will hit them and should have a general happy aim assist. Though it can exist sometimes they don't need an extreme precise aiming for it to have action combat.
I don't believe blocking, dodges, or simply having action combat make a game like BDO until you turn up the speed to *5
I expect projectiles to curve towards player like it does with the mobs skills from what I saw. And curve in soft lock or tab target. Honestly i don't view that as a issue. Though they should make them to be dodged at far range.
Action games don't have the same requirement to make decisions as a tab target game does - not at the top end at least. That is kind of the point of tab target - it is all about decision making.
In terms of decision making, action combat is like playing checkers, while tab target is like playing 4D chess.
I mean, you are correct if you want to talk about theory - an action game COULD require that same level of decision making. This isn't a point I would argue - my argument is that none of them actually do.
The problem with this argument is that the same can then apply to tab target games. All tab target games that I've played require you to be facing your target. Some of them have an arc of around 60°, so it isn't really a thing you even need to know, let alone think about. However, some games have as little as 15°. This is already making aiming more important here than in an action game as a melee character.
The thing is, if we are going to talk about action games and how they COULD make decision making as important as it is in tab target games, then we can also talk about how a tab target game COULD lower that targeting arc to be less than 1° - in both axis. This would make a tab target game where aiming is as important as it is in an action game.
However, since there are no games that actually DO this - just as there are no action games that actually make decision making as important as it is in tab target - I don't talk about this much.
So, if you want to continue to claim that decision making is as important in action combat as it is in tab due to the fact that a game technically could exist where this is the case, then I will claim that aiming is as important in tab target games because it technically could exist.
Or, we could both agree that since neither of these games actually exist, we will refrain from talking about either of them. This is my personal preference, but I am happy to throw this decision to you to make for both of us.
I'll follow your lead on this one.
Tera had awesome action combat. But it was gradually changing. For me it was the best in 2014-2017 period, before they did the awakening of classes.
It was kinda mix of 10- 20% soft tab-target(lock on) and 70-80% action.
"Which one requires more skill?"
"Which one is more fast paced?"
"Which one is the best?"
Some people just doesn't seem to get that it simple depends, there are Action combat games way slower and that require way less skill and in many other ways is simple worst than many tab combat games and vice-versa.
The games people played and the ones they didn't makes that bias pretty clear on this topic.
Aren't we all sinners?
and more simply... personnal taste.
as said, there is not "the skill" but "skills" a RTS or a turnbased is not "one superior to other" but simply different thing, requiring their players different mindset, capacity and skills.
This is why i also think that this debate is useless... and overall the polls shows that large majority of people just want a good gameplay, not a specific one (even if they prefer one to other)
In everquest you do not need to face your target, the game auto faces your target for you so that is incorrect. There is a big different between facing your target and the game doing it for you.
Tab is not like 4d chess tab is pretty simply and extend to just your understanding of the game. Action mmorpgs are having a understanding of the game and having the skill.
1. You can take all tab skills and make them action oriented
2. That means the entire depth will always be higher than tab for the additional layers that are added
3. More gameplay elements and challenges available
Decision making is not more important than tab nor more in depth than a action game, action games have infinite for difficulty and decision making that can be added. Which is easily done by having more challenges on screen and further increasing the mobility and reaction abilities and physical effect abilities. in a way tab just doesn't do.
If you played BDO on a higher level you would have realized there are action mmorpgs games where you need to make plenty of decisions and need to pick the best one. Regardless if you realize or accept other games it doesn't really matter because tab games can be made into action ones and that layer of depth is added.
The way you incorrectly look at action elements is kind of naïve years + quantity of mmorpgs has given tab plenty of time and grow from the click to move era. The same thing is going to be applied to action combat in mmorpgs as it is still young, but every new game is pushing it further immensely (minus new world). There is a reason why people prefer action combat and its only a matter of time before that becomes the standard. More than likely will be when riots mmorpg comes out 4-7 years down the line.
here 2 polls prove that it is not true, "some people" around 50 to 60% prefer action. and most of them (at least 80% of them) can totally enjoy a game in tab target system.
What are your source to say that "people", which, in your sentence, feels like "large majority of mmorpg players" ?
Doing claims is fine, like all you did already without any proof, but at some point you should try to learn that this is often more complex than black and white...
about all "action can do same but better, so action is future" history of video game, prove it wrong... we can still find many different gameplay, and the oldest one are still used in modern games... because it is simply other way to enjoy games. again ... not a "modernity is better" neither a "tradition is better" but simply question of taste.
This is a blatant lie, if we are going to go by the polls with the smaller sample size that is fine.
This means you need to take what they are saying and what they prefer, in one of them more people prefer action by a small margin. In the other poll people prefer action combat by a large margin.
What you are doing here is being like "They said they will play anything so 90% till will enjoy tab so its the majority". While ignoring the preference leaning of the poll. People prefer action combat, it doesn't matter if you don't like it, based on the polls that reality is already showing.
In the most skewed poll you had
22% preferring tab+ only wanting tab combined
61% preferring + only wanting action combined
It doesn't matter how much you scream and kick this is the reality based on you wanting to go by polls as proof.
People play old games of different types, that has 0 to do the direction of games in the future. If we are going by history of mmorpgs the direction has always been towards action as tab was do to limited design. From some of the oldest games in tab to know they have been adding more and more action elements as design limitations are being passed and so they can work on implementation in mmorpg style gameplay.
Unless you want to ignore how mmorpgs started and the action elements being added to the games over the years.
So smth like this.
In order to even activate a tab skill your character gotta be facing your target directly. Then at the moment of use of the ability, there's a 5° angle within which the target could move and still get hit. But if the target moves outside of those 5° - they avoid the attack.
The speed of turning would have to depend on basic speed of movement across all archetypes and races. If a character moves at the speed of, say, 60° a second (at the longest possible range of ranged attacks and abilities), I'd say that character turn speed should be ~20° a second. In other words, 1/3 of the lateral movement speed.
This way the tab targeting still helps people aim at their targets, but the attacks themselves work way closer to action abilities than the usual tab ones (no hardcore 90° turns of flying projectiles). If the target is barely moving to the side, ranged abilities will still be tracking them fairly well, but if the target is at top speeds or is way closer to the attacker - the attacker would have to manually adjust their character's direction in order to even be able to use a tab ability.
This would also boost melee fighting, cause you can just dance around your stationary target and they'd have hard time hitting you, which would make them move more and with more thought. Obviously melee tab abilities (if there even are any) would have a bit wider activation angle, though that could be tested.
@Azherae @Noaani I'd be interested in hearing your opinions on a system like this too. I'm obviously super biased cause I'm used to this, so hearing opinions of less-action-combat-inclined people would be good.