@Azherae Curious though, what content of his have you seen to be making claims on what he can do?
I don't need to see people's content to trust their words, I feel no need to do this.
If Noaani is lying about this, I assume someone will make it clear eventually. And even if so, it doesn't matter because a 'hypothetical Noaani' must exist.
I also don't assume that high level PvE players are bad at PvP, I automatically assume the OPPOSITE.
I will remind you that making that top 10 claim for Soul Calibur around me is not meaningful, I know all of the timing and information surrounding that. But now that I know that the only game you play seriously is SC, I can stop making certain appeals to experiences I thought you would have had.
I now understand that Noaani probably shouldn't make certain comparisons when talking with you either. This is my fault for making assumptions about your experiences and trying to reframe things Noaani says when you quote them, to 'Fighting Game Experience'.
I will stop making references to such games when addressing you on these matters. I'd prefer not to take this any further as I think it might be too difficult to avoid somehow offending you or making you feel defensive.
But I stand by my claim. I know your skill level in SC. I know what thought processes SC does not teach. I know that your 'top 10 player' status lasted for like ... six days I think, if that? I can go ask.
Let's not make this about you trying to prove your ability, I am the only one who cares and I am unlikely to ever change my mind. There's no reason for me to expect that a person who is most likely telling the truth about being top tier will not win against someone who I have explicitly seen play, given basic effort.
You can continue to believe that sort of thing if you want, I'm just saying it won't ever convince ME, and that's okay.
You are making a lot of assumptions I was on top for only 6 days? You haven't seen Noaani fight competitive in any games but you are assuming he can be a top 10 in the world?
Giving someone the benefit of being good is one thing, but giving the benefit of being one of the best without seeing or fighting them doesn't really sound bound by logic.
honestly going by the logic me saying and showing it and saying he wouldn't be me, you should be assuming that there would be a big difference between him fighting a random on soulcalibur and me?
I literarily don't understand your logic behind this.... Like I guess anyone can believe anything they want at the end of the day but at some point there has to be some realism.
I will remind you that I know EXACTLY how long you were on 'top' because I can CHECK that.
I can ASK people to DOUBLE check that.
Do not embarrass yourself here. There is no need to pursue this point.
The only reason anyone has any reason to believe that you were 'top 10 in Soul Calibur' was your screenshot, right?
It's trivial for someone like me to check EXACTLY when THAT Rank point number would have been in Top 10 range on XBox. I am not 'here to call you out'. You can ignore everything that even started this, I was trying to make a comparison based on top end play in FAST fighting games.
You have only seriously played a SLOW one. There was no point to even make, that's on me.
@Azherae Curious though, what content of his have you seen to be making claims on what he can do?
I don't need to see people's content to trust their words, I feel no need to do this.
If Noaani is lying about this, I assume someone will make it clear eventually. And even if so, it doesn't matter because a 'hypothetical Noaani' must exist.
I also don't assume that high level PvE players are bad at PvP, I automatically assume the OPPOSITE.
I will remind you that making that top 10 claim for Soul Calibur around me is not meaningful, I know all of the timing and information surrounding that. But now that I know that the only game you play seriously is SC, I can stop making certain appeals to experiences I thought you would have had.
I now understand that Noaani probably shouldn't make certain comparisons when talking with you either. This is my fault for making assumptions about your experiences and trying to reframe things Noaani says when you quote them, to 'Fighting Game Experience'.
I will stop making references to such games when addressing you on these matters. I'd prefer not to take this any further as I think it might be too difficult to avoid somehow offending you or making you feel defensive.
But I stand by my claim. I know your skill level in SC. I know what thought processes SC does not teach. I know that your 'top 10 player' status lasted for like ... six days I think, if that? I can go ask.
Let's not make this about you trying to prove your ability, I am the only one who cares and I am unlikely to ever change my mind. There's no reason for me to expect that a person who is most likely telling the truth about being top tier will not win against someone who I have explicitly seen play, given basic effort.
You can continue to believe that sort of thing if you want, I'm just saying it won't ever convince ME, and that's okay.
You are making a lot of assumptions I was on top for only 6 days? You haven't seen Noaani fight competitive in any games but you are assuming he can be a top 10 in the world?
Giving someone the benefit of being good is one thing, but giving the benefit of being one of the best without seeing or fighting them doesn't really sound bound by logic.
honestly going by the logic me saying and showing it and saying he wouldn't be me, you should be assuming that there would be a big difference between him fighting a random on soulcalibur and me?
I literarily don't understand your logic behind this.... Like I guess anyone can believe anything they want at the end of the day but at some point there has to be some realism.
I will remind you that I know EXACTLY how long you were on 'top' because I can CHECK that.
I can ASK people to DOUBLE check that.
Do not embarrass yourself here. There is no need to pursue this point.
The only reason anyone has any reason to believe that you were 'top 10 in Soul Calibur' was your screenshot, right?
It's trivial for someone like me to check EXACTLY when THAT Rank point number would have been in Top 10 range on XBox. I am not 'here to call you out'. You can ignore everything that even started this, I was trying to make a comparison based on top end play in FAST fighting games.
You have only seriously played a SLOW one. There was no point to even make, that's on me.
@Azherae Curious though, what content of his have you seen to be making claims on what he can do?
I don't need to see people's content to trust their words, I feel no need to do this.
If Noaani is lying about this, I assume someone will make it clear eventually. And even if so, it doesn't matter because a 'hypothetical Noaani' must exist.
I also don't assume that high level PvE players are bad at PvP, I automatically assume the OPPOSITE.
I will remind you that making that top 10 claim for Soul Calibur around me is not meaningful, I know all of the timing and information surrounding that. But now that I know that the only game you play seriously is SC, I can stop making certain appeals to experiences I thought you would have had.
I now understand that Noaani probably shouldn't make certain comparisons when talking with you either. This is my fault for making assumptions about your experiences and trying to reframe things Noaani says when you quote them, to 'Fighting Game Experience'.
I will stop making references to such games when addressing you on these matters. I'd prefer not to take this any further as I think it might be too difficult to avoid somehow offending you or making you feel defensive.
But I stand by my claim. I know your skill level in SC. I know what thought processes SC does not teach. I know that your 'top 10 player' status lasted for like ... six days I think, if that? I can go ask.
Let's not make this about you trying to prove your ability, I am the only one who cares and I am unlikely to ever change my mind. There's no reason for me to expect that a person who is most likely telling the truth about being top tier will not win against someone who I have explicitly seen play, given basic effort.
You can continue to believe that sort of thing if you want, I'm just saying it won't ever convince ME, and that's okay.
You are making a lot of assumptions I was on top for only 6 days? You haven't seen Noaani fight competitive in any games but you are assuming he can be a top 10 in the world?
Giving someone the benefit of being good is one thing, but giving the benefit of being one of the best without seeing or fighting them doesn't really sound bound by logic.
honestly going by the logic me saying and showing it and saying he wouldn't be me, you should be assuming that there would be a big difference between him fighting a random on soulcalibur and me?
I literarily don't understand your logic behind this.... Like I guess anyone can believe anything they want at the end of the day but at some point there has to be some realism.
I will remind you that I know EXACTLY how long you were on 'top' because I can CHECK that.
I can ASK people to DOUBLE check that.
Do not embarrass yourself here. There is no need to pursue this point.
The only reason anyone has any reason to believe that you were 'top 10 in Soul Calibur' was your screenshot, right?
It's trivial for someone like me to check EXACTLY when THAT Rank point number would have been in Top 10 range on XBox. I am not 'here to call you out'. You can ignore everything that even started this, I was trying to make a comparison based on top end play in FAST fighting games.
You have only seriously played a SLOW one. There was no point to even make, that's on me.
No you actually started this by saying someone you have never seen play games can beat people top 10 suddenly in fighting games confident without evidence or even knowing what games he plays besides mmorpgs.
You are free if you can to check my rank and see if it was only 6 days for where my ran was around the top 10 markers for higher and below.
Either you are lying or assuming, if you are sololy going based on the screen shots i showed that does not show the full picture on range of me playing the game.
@Azherae Curious though, what content of his have you seen to be making claims on what he can do?
I don't need to see people's content to trust their words, I feel no need to do this.
If Noaani is lying about this, I assume someone will make it clear eventually. And even if so, it doesn't matter because a 'hypothetical Noaani' must exist.
I also don't assume that high level PvE players are bad at PvP, I automatically assume the OPPOSITE.
I will remind you that making that top 10 claim for Soul Calibur around me is not meaningful, I know all of the timing and information surrounding that. But now that I know that the only game you play seriously is SC, I can stop making certain appeals to experiences I thought you would have had.
I now understand that Noaani probably shouldn't make certain comparisons when talking with you either. This is my fault for making assumptions about your experiences and trying to reframe things Noaani says when you quote them, to 'Fighting Game Experience'.
I will stop making references to such games when addressing you on these matters. I'd prefer not to take this any further as I think it might be too difficult to avoid somehow offending you or making you feel defensive.
But I stand by my claim. I know your skill level in SC. I know what thought processes SC does not teach. I know that your 'top 10 player' status lasted for like ... six days I think, if that? I can go ask.
Let's not make this about you trying to prove your ability, I am the only one who cares and I am unlikely to ever change my mind. There's no reason for me to expect that a person who is most likely telling the truth about being top tier will not win against someone who I have explicitly seen play, given basic effort.
You can continue to believe that sort of thing if you want, I'm just saying it won't ever convince ME, and that's okay.
You are making a lot of assumptions I was on top for only 6 days? You haven't seen Noaani fight competitive in any games but you are assuming he can be a top 10 in the world?
Giving someone the benefit of being good is one thing, but giving the benefit of being one of the best without seeing or fighting them doesn't really sound bound by logic.
honestly going by the logic me saying and showing it and saying he wouldn't be me, you should be assuming that there would be a big difference between him fighting a random on soulcalibur and me?
I literarily don't understand your logic behind this.... Like I guess anyone can believe anything they want at the end of the day but at some point there has to be some realism.
I will remind you that I know EXACTLY how long you were on 'top' because I can CHECK that.
I can ASK people to DOUBLE check that.
Do not embarrass yourself here. There is no need to pursue this point.
The only reason anyone has any reason to believe that you were 'top 10 in Soul Calibur' was your screenshot, right?
It's trivial for someone like me to check EXACTLY when THAT Rank point number would have been in Top 10 range on XBox. I am not 'here to call you out'. You can ignore everything that even started this, I was trying to make a comparison based on top end play in FAST fighting games.
You have only seriously played a SLOW one. There was no point to even make, that's on me.
No you actually started this by saying someone you have never seen play games can beat people top 10 suddenly in fighting games confident without evidence or even knowing what games he plays besides mmorpgs.
You are free if you can to check my rank and see if it was only 6 days for where my ran was around the top 10 markers for higher and below.
Either you are lying or assuming, if you are sololy going based on the screen shots i showed that does not show the full picture on range of me playing the game.
Ok wait. You said 'I am free to check your rank'.
I checked your rank.
You were top 10 for 6 days.
There you go.
EDIT: Do you see my point here? I'm the ONLY one who cares about this and even I barely care, this is a dumb derail based on a mistake I made about your experience.
Everyone else (who isn't in my group and therefore gets the same information) can just assume I'm lying because you said so. I will go with what I found. If you want to convince ME that the information I have is wrong, do that.
If you want to convince OTHER people, just call me a liar or manipulative repeatedly or something. This is pointless. I was just telling you 'don't bring up the Top 10 thing because my information shows me that it wasn't that important'.
Otherwise you're just 'claiming you were top 10' in a game that basically shriveled up within 3 months of release, and claiming it on the less competitive platform.
No you actually started this by saying someone you have never seen play games can beat people top 10 suddenly in fighting games confident without evidence or even knowing what games he plays besides mmorpgs.
I read it as "if Noaani wanted to, he could play the game long enough to get the skill to be able to beat either of you". And I saw that assumption as one based on Noaani's attitude towards gaming overall, that is - highly analytical and super hardcore.
I've also haven't seen any proof from him on the things he's said, but to me (and seemingly to Azherae) it's a simple case of "true until proven otherwise". Noaani is a random person on the internet that might not even exist. Though keeping up the same persona for over a decade, as shown by the EQ2 forums link, would require a lot of commitment. Probably as much commitment as one would need in order to get good enough at SC to beat both you and Azherae.
@Azherae Curious though, what content of his have you seen to be making claims on what he can do?
I don't need to see people's content to trust their words, I feel no need to do this.
If Noaani is lying about this, I assume someone will make it clear eventually. And even if so, it doesn't matter because a 'hypothetical Noaani' must exist.
I also don't assume that high level PvE players are bad at PvP, I automatically assume the OPPOSITE.
I will remind you that making that top 10 claim for Soul Calibur around me is not meaningful, I know all of the timing and information surrounding that. But now that I know that the only game you play seriously is SC, I can stop making certain appeals to experiences I thought you would have had.
I now understand that Noaani probably shouldn't make certain comparisons when talking with you either. This is my fault for making assumptions about your experiences and trying to reframe things Noaani says when you quote them, to 'Fighting Game Experience'.
I will stop making references to such games when addressing you on these matters. I'd prefer not to take this any further as I think it might be too difficult to avoid somehow offending you or making you feel defensive.
But I stand by my claim. I know your skill level in SC. I know what thought processes SC does not teach. I know that your 'top 10 player' status lasted for like ... six days I think, if that? I can go ask.
Let's not make this about you trying to prove your ability, I am the only one who cares and I am unlikely to ever change my mind. There's no reason for me to expect that a person who is most likely telling the truth about being top tier will not win against someone who I have explicitly seen play, given basic effort.
You can continue to believe that sort of thing if you want, I'm just saying it won't ever convince ME, and that's okay.
You are making a lot of assumptions I was on top for only 6 days? You haven't seen Noaani fight competitive in any games but you are assuming he can be a top 10 in the world?
Giving someone the benefit of being good is one thing, but giving the benefit of being one of the best without seeing or fighting them doesn't really sound bound by logic.
honestly going by the logic me saying and showing it and saying he wouldn't be me, you should be assuming that there would be a big difference between him fighting a random on soulcalibur and me?
I literarily don't understand your logic behind this.... Like I guess anyone can believe anything they want at the end of the day but at some point there has to be some realism.
I will remind you that I know EXACTLY how long you were on 'top' because I can CHECK that.
I can ASK people to DOUBLE check that.
Do not embarrass yourself here. There is no need to pursue this point.
The only reason anyone has any reason to believe that you were 'top 10 in Soul Calibur' was your screenshot, right?
It's trivial for someone like me to check EXACTLY when THAT Rank point number would have been in Top 10 range on XBox. I am not 'here to call you out'. You can ignore everything that even started this, I was trying to make a comparison based on top end play in FAST fighting games.
You have only seriously played a SLOW one. There was no point to even make, that's on me.
No you actually started this by saying someone you have never seen play games can beat people top 10 suddenly in fighting games confident without evidence or even knowing what games he plays besides mmorpgs.
You are free if you can to check my rank and see if it was only 6 days for where my ran was around the top 10 markers for higher and below.
Either you are lying or assuming, if you are sololy going based on the screen shots i showed that does not show the full picture on range of me playing the game.
Ok wait. You said 'I am free to check your rank'.
I checked your rank.
You were top 10 for 6 days.
There you go.
If you are going to say something you know you should actually use proof instead of just saying something online. It will sound a lot more believable btw.
@Azherae Curious though, what content of his have you seen to be making claims on what he can do?
I don't need to see people's content to trust their words, I feel no need to do this.
If Noaani is lying about this, I assume someone will make it clear eventually. And even if so, it doesn't matter because a 'hypothetical Noaani' must exist.
I also don't assume that high level PvE players are bad at PvP, I automatically assume the OPPOSITE.
I will remind you that making that top 10 claim for Soul Calibur around me is not meaningful, I know all of the timing and information surrounding that. But now that I know that the only game you play seriously is SC, I can stop making certain appeals to experiences I thought you would have had.
I now understand that Noaani probably shouldn't make certain comparisons when talking with you either. This is my fault for making assumptions about your experiences and trying to reframe things Noaani says when you quote them, to 'Fighting Game Experience'.
I will stop making references to such games when addressing you on these matters. I'd prefer not to take this any further as I think it might be too difficult to avoid somehow offending you or making you feel defensive.
But I stand by my claim. I know your skill level in SC. I know what thought processes SC does not teach. I know that your 'top 10 player' status lasted for like ... six days I think, if that? I can go ask.
Let's not make this about you trying to prove your ability, I am the only one who cares and I am unlikely to ever change my mind. There's no reason for me to expect that a person who is most likely telling the truth about being top tier will not win against someone who I have explicitly seen play, given basic effort.
You can continue to believe that sort of thing if you want, I'm just saying it won't ever convince ME, and that's okay.
You are making a lot of assumptions I was on top for only 6 days? You haven't seen Noaani fight competitive in any games but you are assuming he can be a top 10 in the world?
Giving someone the benefit of being good is one thing, but giving the benefit of being one of the best without seeing or fighting them doesn't really sound bound by logic.
honestly going by the logic me saying and showing it and saying he wouldn't be me, you should be assuming that there would be a big difference between him fighting a random on soulcalibur and me?
I literarily don't understand your logic behind this.... Like I guess anyone can believe anything they want at the end of the day but at some point there has to be some realism.
I will remind you that I know EXACTLY how long you were on 'top' because I can CHECK that.
I can ASK people to DOUBLE check that.
Do not embarrass yourself here. There is no need to pursue this point.
The only reason anyone has any reason to believe that you were 'top 10 in Soul Calibur' was your screenshot, right?
It's trivial for someone like me to check EXACTLY when THAT Rank point number would have been in Top 10 range on XBox. I am not 'here to call you out'. You can ignore everything that even started this, I was trying to make a comparison based on top end play in FAST fighting games.
You have only seriously played a SLOW one. There was no point to even make, that's on me.
No you actually started this by saying someone you have never seen play games can beat people top 10 suddenly in fighting games confident without evidence or even knowing what games he plays besides mmorpgs.
You are free if you can to check my rank and see if it was only 6 days for where my ran was around the top 10 markers for higher and below.
Either you are lying or assuming, if you are sololy going based on the screen shots i showed that does not show the full picture on range of me playing the game.
Ok wait. You said 'I am free to check your rank'.
I checked your rank.
You were top 10 for 6 days.
There you go.
If you are going to say something you know you should actually use proof instead of just saying something online. It will sound a lot more believable btw.
Good. Then just ignore it. Since I am not going to reveal my sources, nor am I going to compromise YOU in any way, you can assume 'it really looks like I am just lying' and other people will just assume I'm lying.
You don't have to worry about it if it isn't believable, and I don't care about it anymore. I have learned the most important aspect of this.
You have not seriously played any fast fighting games, so you did not understand the point I was making.
No you actually started this by saying someone you have never seen play games can beat people top 10 suddenly in fighting games confident without evidence or even knowing what games he plays besides mmorpgs.
I read it as "if Noaani wanted to, he could play the game long enough to get the skill to be able to beat either of you". And I saw that assumption as one based on Noaani's attitude towards gaming overall, that is - highly analytical and super hardcore.
I've also haven't seen any proof from him on the things he's said, but to me (and seemingly to Azherae) it's a simple case of "true until proven otherwise". Noaani is a random person on the internet that might not even exist. Though keeping up the same persona for over a decade, as shown by the EQ2 forums link, would require a lot of commitment. Probably as much commitment as one would need in order to get good enough at SC to beat both you and Azherae.
Thing is playing a lot doesn't mean he will be better its a different skill set of a fighting game and a mmorpg. This argument is akin if anyone plays a lot they can beat any person that is extremely skilled in the game. And reading tracking sheets or crunching numbers is not going to make you win against a better player in a fighting game.
Questions are what proof is there that he has played on a higher level, age, has he played fighting games in the past and grown up with them, as he played the suggest fighting game before to begin with, how many hours has he spent with those games.
If you are going on a assumption that first most he has not stated as far as i believe on playing fighting games to any kind of extreme value so arguing he is going to beat someone who didn't just play it but reached the top and fought some very competitive players is a bit weird.
Or are we saying if he played fighting games while growing, up and played these games instead of mmorpgs than maybe he could beat you because I believe he is a good gamer even though i haven't seen anything. and even though you have shown stuff and proved it I think he could beat you just because i believe it.
That is just kind of weird, to say if he played the game he could get decent, maybe he might. But I'm not talking about decent to beat me when I was at the time so using me as a reference doesn't make a lot of sense. Unless you are just trying to say it to get some raise out of me. I don't need to be defensive about it because what you are saying doesn't make sense to me as a competitive player.
No you actually started this by saying someone you have never seen play games can beat people top 10 suddenly in fighting games confident without evidence or even knowing what games he plays besides mmorpgs.
I read it as "if Noaani wanted to, he could play the game long enough to get the skill to be able to beat either of you". And I saw that assumption as one based on Noaani's attitude towards gaming overall, that is - highly analytical and super hardcore.
I've also haven't seen any proof from him on the things he's said, but to me (and seemingly to Azherae) it's a simple case of "true until proven otherwise". Noaani is a random person on the internet that might not even exist. Though keeping up the same persona for over a decade, as shown by the EQ2 forums link, would require a lot of commitment. Probably as much commitment as one would need in order to get good enough at SC to beat both you and Azherae.
Thing is playing a lot doesn't mean he will be better its a different skill set of a fighting game and a mmorpg. This argument is akin if anyone plays a lot they can beat any person that is extremely skilled in the game. And reading tracking sheets or crunching numbers is not going to make you win against a better player in a fighting game.
Questions are what proof is there that he has played on a higher level, age, has he played fighting games in the past and grown up with them, as he played the suggest fighting game before to begin with, how many hours has he spent with those games.
If you are going on a assumption that first most he has not stated as far as i believe on playing fighting games to any kind of extreme value so arguing he is going to beat someone who didn't just play it but reached the top and fought some very competitive players is a bit weird.
Or are we saying if he played fighting games while growing, up and played these games instead of mmorpgs than maybe he could beat you because I believe he is a good gamer even though i haven't seen anything. and even though you have shown stuff and proved it I think he could beat you just because i believe it.
That is just kind of weird, to say if he played the game he could get decent, maybe he might. But I'm not talking about decent to beat me when I was at the time so using me as a reference doesn't make a lot of sense. Unless you are just trying to say it to get some raise out of me. I don't need to be defensive about it because what you are saying doesn't make sense to me as a competitive player.
I was trying to make it clear that you should assume that Noaani is the type of person that understands the same things that you and I understand.
However, you have clarified that your experience wouldn't lead to the same understanding anyway.
You're right, I shouldn't have used that reference. It WAS definitely meant to affect you, I wanted you to stop and think 'well maybe I can see how a high level PvP ArcheAge player might be good at this' because I thought you would realize 'oh, yeah, because the skill types carry over from game to game'.
But you only played one game seriously enough, and the one game you played is a slower one, so I can see why you wouldn't conclude that the way I do. I'm not going to try to convince you that the skills transfer, if you've never experienced it and don't believe it works that way.
I just incorrectly thought that you would agree with me about that, so I made an appeal to your experience.
@Azherae Curious though, what content of his have you seen to be making claims on what he can do?
I don't need to see people's content to trust their words, I feel no need to do this.
If Noaani is lying about this, I assume someone will make it clear eventually. And even if so, it doesn't matter because a 'hypothetical Noaani' must exist.
I also don't assume that high level PvE players are bad at PvP, I automatically assume the OPPOSITE.
I will remind you that making that top 10 claim for Soul Calibur around me is not meaningful, I know all of the timing and information surrounding that. But now that I know that the only game you play seriously is SC, I can stop making certain appeals to experiences I thought you would have had.
I now understand that Noaani probably shouldn't make certain comparisons when talking with you either. This is my fault for making assumptions about your experiences and trying to reframe things Noaani says when you quote them, to 'Fighting Game Experience'.
I will stop making references to such games when addressing you on these matters. I'd prefer not to take this any further as I think it might be too difficult to avoid somehow offending you or making you feel defensive.
But I stand by my claim. I know your skill level in SC. I know what thought processes SC does not teach. I know that your 'top 10 player' status lasted for like ... six days I think, if that? I can go ask.
Let's not make this about you trying to prove your ability, I am the only one who cares and I am unlikely to ever change my mind. There's no reason for me to expect that a person who is most likely telling the truth about being top tier will not win against someone who I have explicitly seen play, given basic effort.
You can continue to believe that sort of thing if you want, I'm just saying it won't ever convince ME, and that's okay.
You are making a lot of assumptions I was on top for only 6 days? You haven't seen Noaani fight competitive in any games but you are assuming he can be a top 10 in the world?
Giving someone the benefit of being good is one thing, but giving the benefit of being one of the best without seeing or fighting them doesn't really sound bound by logic.
honestly going by the logic me saying and showing it and saying he wouldn't be me, you should be assuming that there would be a big difference between him fighting a random on soulcalibur and me?
I literarily don't understand your logic behind this.... Like I guess anyone can believe anything they want at the end of the day but at some point there has to be some realism.
I will remind you that I know EXACTLY how long you were on 'top' because I can CHECK that.
I can ASK people to DOUBLE check that.
Do not embarrass yourself here. There is no need to pursue this point.
The only reason anyone has any reason to believe that you were 'top 10 in Soul Calibur' was your screenshot, right?
It's trivial for someone like me to check EXACTLY when THAT Rank point number would have been in Top 10 range on XBox. I am not 'here to call you out'. You can ignore everything that even started this, I was trying to make a comparison based on top end play in FAST fighting games.
You have only seriously played a SLOW one. There was no point to even make, that's on me.
No you actually started this by saying someone you have never seen play games can beat people top 10 suddenly in fighting games confident without evidence or even knowing what games he plays besides mmorpgs.
You are free if you can to check my rank and see if it was only 6 days for where my ran was around the top 10 markers for higher and below.
Either you are lying or assuming, if you are sololy going based on the screen shots i showed that does not show the full picture on range of me playing the game.
Ok wait. You said 'I am free to check your rank'.
I checked your rank.
You were top 10 for 6 days.
There you go.
If you are going to say something you know you should actually use proof instead of just saying something online. It will sound a lot more believable btw.
Good. Then just ignore it. Since I am not going to reveal my sources, nor am I going to compromise YOU in any way, you can assume 'it really looks like I am just lying' and other people will just assume I'm lying.
You don't have to worry about it if it isn't believable, and I don't care about it anymore. I have learned the most important aspect of this.
You have not seriously played any fast fighting games, so you did not understand the point I was making.
Soulcalibur is my fighting game and it is plenty fast and you can 8 way run, plenty or decisions to do, and a massive command list for mix ups.
Since we are going off opinions for me Soulcalibur just takes far more skill than a 2d fighter there is a lot more depth to it. Soulcalibur is plenty fast if you are skilled and know how to play.
If you had sources you have permission to share whatever you like it doesn't change anything about the the topic you brought up on someone that doesn't play these games beating me.
Now if you brought up everquest 1 and he played it im sure i can say he would beat me in that game since I was a small child when I played it.
@Azherae I use to love playing with the healer class in Wildstar. Fun times. The learning curve to master healing was something. For me it was a nice breath of fresh air! Their telegraphs were enjoyable. Althought I can imagine it is not everyones cup of tea. And that is fine.
Wouldnt it be something if Intrepid could surprise us all. Can anyone imagine the Devs creating something that will appeal most of us. We are all hopeful for something engaging! So lets keep the positive vibes!
Hey, I dont care if they take the ideas from MOBAS, FPS, other MMOs, etc.
And if they value Risk and Reward, that should also be applied in some way, shape or form in every aspect, including combat.
What is the risk? What are the rewards? Players need to develop the skills necessary to play their class effectively.
Also, no judgement. Not every player needs to get to an expert level in everything. That is one of the perks of an MMO. Everyone has the opportunity to explore, and pursue what they enjoy.
Some folks only care about their finances in-game, others like to play with friends and family, there are the competitive ones, etc.
One thing is for sure, a lot of people dont want to re-experience the failures or the aspects they dislike from previous MMOs.
Soul Calibur is a slow game compared to the ones I am talking about.
The fastest startup normal attack in the game is 12 frames. This is equivalent to the SLOWEST startup normal attack in games I play.
So in Soul Calibur, you have to make decisions at only 1/2 of the speed that you make those decisions in Melty Blood (it's closer to 1/4 speed).
I'm not saying that Soul Calibur is some sort of super slow easy game. I'm saying it's slowER. Can we leave it at that?
That is 2d, there is a lot more decisions in a 3d fighting since you have 8 way run, meaning you have to think of a lot more. But we can leave it at that that wasn't the point anyway.
It was you saying someone could beat me, that you haven't seen play games or understand how competitive he was even though you are aware he is a pve players... Yet me having shown actual stuff and that i was on top of the leaderboard you say I can't win. It isn't even that you are saying he can, it is just this statement in general isn't bound by logic.
If you saw him game, be very competitive, be a good player, also saw him play fighting games and plenty of them.
I'd have no issue, id be im rusty but lets run it. A good challenge is always fun, even more so since its hard to find people on that game now adays. Or me being rusty still gets me kicked out of rooms for winning so i have less people to fight.
@Azherae I use to love playing with the healer class in Wildstar. Fun times. The learning curve to master healing was something. For me it was a nice breath of fresh air! Their telegraphs were enjoyable. Althought I can imagine it is not everyones cup of tea. And that is fine.
Wouldnt it be something if Intrepid could surprise us all. Can anyone imagine the Devs creating something that will appeal most of us. We are all hopeful for something engaging! So lets keep the positive vibes!
Hey, I dont care if they take the ideas from MOBAS, FPS, other MMOs, etc.
And if they value Risk and Reward, that should also be applied in some way, shape or form in every aspect, including combat.
What is the risk? What are the rewards? Players need to develop the skills necessary to play their class effectively.
Also, no judgement. Not every player needs to get to an expert level in everything. That is one of the perks of an MMO. Everyone has the opportunity to explore, and pursue what they enjoy.
Some folks only care about their finances in-game, others like to play with friends and family, there are the competitive ones, etc.
One thing is for sure, a lot of people dont want to re-experience the failures or the aspects they dislike from previous MMOs.
No pressure, DEVS!
Be well all!
I'm really hoping that we get some good choices for both paths in Healing skills as they promised. I won't mind if the tradeoff for high-healing Action-Heals is having to be close to the target, for example, since this is at least a DECENT threat in PvE. Also, throwing out big sudden heals is an easy way to get hate in a game like this, so you'd have to synergize with your Tank and not just 'oh I'll stand here because my heal is so strong but nothing will ever hit me anyway'.
If enemies have cleaving attacks, even better for balance.
I hope that backline healers get 'consistency' and frontline healers get something LIKE 'power' with the tradeoff of 'danger' and that the PvE design means that the danger isn't something you can just cheese your way out of. I think most people would be happy at that point.
Soul Calibur is a slow game compared to the ones I am talking about.
The fastest startup normal attack in the game is 12 frames. This is equivalent to the SLOWEST startup normal attack in games I play.
So in Soul Calibur, you have to make decisions at only 1/2 of the speed that you make those decisions in Melty Blood (it's closer to 1/4 speed).
I'm not saying that Soul Calibur is some sort of super slow easy game. I'm saying it's slowER. Can we leave it at that?
That is 2d, there is a lot more decisions in a 3d fighting since you have 8 way run, meaning you have to think of a lot more. But we can leave it at that that wasn't the point anyway.
It was you saying someone could beat me, that you haven't seen play games or understand how competitive he was even though you are aware he is a pve players... Yet me having shown actual stuff and that i was on top of the leaderboard you say I can't win. It isn't even that you are saying he can, it is just this statement in general isn't bound by logic.
If you saw him game, be very competitive, be a good player, also saw him play fighting games and plenty of them.
I'd have no issue, id be im rusty but lets run it. A good challenge is always fun, even more so since its hard to find people on that game now adays. Or me being rusty still gets me kicked out of rooms for winning so i have less people to fight.
Again, I absolutely understand that your experience and conclusions don't match mine.
This is fine. You believe that Noaani would not be good enough at Fighting Games because of supposedly not playing them before, (and apparently somehow because of being a PvE player in your mind, I guess you don't believe the ArcheAge thing?)
I believe Noaani. We don't have to agree on it. I was trying to bridge a gap to common ground. There is none, so we can drop it. Agree to disagree?
Soul Calibur is a slow game compared to the ones I am talking about.
The fastest startup normal attack in the game is 12 frames. This is equivalent to the SLOWEST startup normal attack in games I play.
So in Soul Calibur, you have to make decisions at only 1/2 of the speed that you make those decisions in Melty Blood (it's closer to 1/4 speed).
I'm not saying that Soul Calibur is some sort of super slow easy game. I'm saying it's slowER. Can we leave it at that?
That is 2d, there is a lot more decisions in a 3d fighting since you have 8 way run, meaning you have to think of a lot more. But we can leave it at that that wasn't the point anyway.
It was you saying someone could beat me, that you haven't seen play games or understand how competitive he was even though you are aware he is a pve players... Yet me having shown actual stuff and that i was on top of the leaderboard you say I can't win. It isn't even that you are saying he can, it is just this statement in general isn't bound by logic.
If you saw him game, be very competitive, be a good player, also saw him play fighting games and plenty of them.
I'd have no issue, id be im rusty but lets run it. A good challenge is always fun, even more so since its hard to find people on that game now adays. Or me being rusty still gets me kicked out of rooms for winning so i have less people to fight.
Again, I absolutely understand that your experience and conclusions don't match mine.
This is fine. You believe that Noaani would not be good enough at Fighting Games because of supposedly not playing them before, (and apparently somehow because of being a PvE player in your mind, I guess you don't believe the ArcheAge thing?)
I believe Noaani. We don't have to agree on it. I was trying to bridge a gap to common ground. There is none, so we can drop it. Agree to disagree?
Uuhh common ground is randomly saying Noaani plays fighting games without knowing much about him or what games he plays or how he plays. If you are done attempting to get a reaction out of me for no reason on this topic I'm good. Rather keep the conversation realistic than discussing what if things on forums that had nothing to do with the current discussion.
Being which you can have action combat with all the depth of previous mmorpgs....
Soul Calibur is a slow game compared to the ones I am talking about.
The fastest startup normal attack in the game is 12 frames. This is equivalent to the SLOWEST startup normal attack in games I play.
So in Soul Calibur, you have to make decisions at only 1/2 of the speed that you make those decisions in Melty Blood (it's closer to 1/4 speed).
I'm not saying that Soul Calibur is some sort of super slow easy game. I'm saying it's slowER. Can we leave it at that?
That is 2d, there is a lot more decisions in a 3d fighting since you have 8 way run, meaning you have to think of a lot more. But we can leave it at that that wasn't the point anyway.
It was you saying someone could beat me, that you haven't seen play games or understand how competitive he was even though you are aware he is a pve players... Yet me having shown actual stuff and that i was on top of the leaderboard you say I can't win. It isn't even that you are saying he can, it is just this statement in general isn't bound by logic.
If you saw him game, be very competitive, be a good player, also saw him play fighting games and plenty of them.
I'd have no issue, id be im rusty but lets run it. A good challenge is always fun, even more so since its hard to find people on that game now adays. Or me being rusty still gets me kicked out of rooms for winning so i have less people to fight.
Again, I absolutely understand that your experience and conclusions don't match mine.
This is fine. You believe that Noaani would not be good enough at Fighting Games because of supposedly not playing them before, (and apparently somehow because of being a PvE player in your mind, I guess you don't believe the ArcheAge thing?)
I believe Noaani. We don't have to agree on it. I was trying to bridge a gap to common ground. There is none, so we can drop it. Agree to disagree?
Uuhh common ground is randomly saying Noaani plays fighting games without knowing much about him or what games he plays or how he plays. If you are done attempting to get a reaction out of me for no reason on this topic I'm good. Rather keep the conversation realistic than discussing what if things on forums that had nothing to do with the current discussion.
Being which you can have action combat with all the depth of previous mmorpgs....
Ok let's try this then, since you are pointing it out.
You just admitted that Soul Calibur is a slower game, but is 3D.
2D Games are faster and require better twitch skills and movement at high levels. 3D games are slower and require more decisions and thinking/range/planning at high levels. You prefer the 3D game (and you think it takes MORE decisions, I think?).
Action Games are faster and require better twitch skills and movement at high levels. Tab Target games are lower and require more decisions and thinking/range/planning at high levels. Noaani prefers Tab Target games.
You don't see me going '3D games are slow and take no skill what are you even talking about everyone knows that 2D games are better because they are fast and require actual reactions and aiming', right?
That's what you sound like, to Noaani.
EDIT: In case unclear, this is my ATTEMPT to move on with the topic while still not 'wasting' the conversation we just had, but I also gotta go stream a 'bot' so back in like 30 I hope.
Soul Calibur is a slow game compared to the ones I am talking about.
The fastest startup normal attack in the game is 12 frames. This is equivalent to the SLOWEST startup normal attack in games I play.
So in Soul Calibur, you have to make decisions at only 1/2 of the speed that you make those decisions in Melty Blood (it's closer to 1/4 speed).
I'm not saying that Soul Calibur is some sort of super slow easy game. I'm saying it's slowER. Can we leave it at that?
That is 2d, there is a lot more decisions in a 3d fighting since you have 8 way run, meaning you have to think of a lot more. But we can leave it at that that wasn't the point anyway.
It was you saying someone could beat me, that you haven't seen play games or understand how competitive he was even though you are aware he is a pve players... Yet me having shown actual stuff and that i was on top of the leaderboard you say I can't win. It isn't even that you are saying he can, it is just this statement in general isn't bound by logic.
If you saw him game, be very competitive, be a good player, also saw him play fighting games and plenty of them.
I'd have no issue, id be im rusty but lets run it. A good challenge is always fun, even more so since its hard to find people on that game now adays. Or me being rusty still gets me kicked out of rooms for winning so i have less people to fight.
Again, I absolutely understand that your experience and conclusions don't match mine.
This is fine. You believe that Noaani would not be good enough at Fighting Games because of supposedly not playing them before, (and apparently somehow because of being a PvE player in your mind, I guess you don't believe the ArcheAge thing?)
I believe Noaani. We don't have to agree on it. I was trying to bridge a gap to common ground. There is none, so we can drop it. Agree to disagree?
Uuhh common ground is randomly saying Noaani plays fighting games without knowing much about him or what games he plays or how he plays. If you are done attempting to get a reaction out of me for no reason on this topic I'm good. Rather keep the conversation realistic than discussing what if things on forums that had nothing to do with the current discussion.
Being which you can have action combat with all the depth of previous mmorpgs....
Ok let's try this then, since you are pointing it out.
You just admitted that Soul Calibur is a slower game, but is 3D.
2D Games are faster and require better twitch skills and movement at high levels. 3D games are slower and require more decisions and thinking/range/planning at high levels. You prefer the 3D game (and you think it takes MORE decisions, I think?).
Action Games are faster and require better twitch skills and movement at high levels. Tab Target games are lower and require more decisions and thinking/range/planning at high levels. Noaani prefers Tab Target games.
You don't see me going '3D games are slow and take no skill what are you even talking about everyone knows that 2D games are better because they are fast and require actual reactions and aiming', right?
That's what you sound like, to Noaani.
EDIT: In case unclear, this is my ATTEMPT to move on with the topic while still not 'wasting' the conversation we just had, but I also gotta go stream a 'bot' so back in like 30 I hope.
You are missing the point. I say you have have the depth of a mmorpg with action combat. I have clearly started you swap all tab skills to action with the same effect and you have the exact same depth but with action combat.
We also have stated about physical skill and knowledge skill wise (referring as the depth in a tab target game) as both with their own skill, which means it can be combined (not that that is new as action elements have been being added tot ab games for ages).
Noaani says devs can't/ won't do it and thinks players can't handle it.
I say players can handle it and it will create a difficult game....
Soul Calibur is a slow game compared to the ones I am talking about.
The fastest startup normal attack in the game is 12 frames. This is equivalent to the SLOWEST startup normal attack in games I play.
So in Soul Calibur, you have to make decisions at only 1/2 of the speed that you make those decisions in Melty Blood (it's closer to 1/4 speed).
I'm not saying that Soul Calibur is some sort of super slow easy game. I'm saying it's slowER. Can we leave it at that?
That is 2d, there is a lot more decisions in a 3d fighting since you have 8 way run, meaning you have to think of a lot more. But we can leave it at that that wasn't the point anyway.
It was you saying someone could beat me, that you haven't seen play games or understand how competitive he was even though you are aware he is a pve players... Yet me having shown actual stuff and that i was on top of the leaderboard you say I can't win. It isn't even that you are saying he can, it is just this statement in general isn't bound by logic.
If you saw him game, be very competitive, be a good player, also saw him play fighting games and plenty of them.
I'd have no issue, id be im rusty but lets run it. A good challenge is always fun, even more so since its hard to find people on that game now adays. Or me being rusty still gets me kicked out of rooms for winning so i have less people to fight.
Again, I absolutely understand that your experience and conclusions don't match mine.
This is fine. You believe that Noaani would not be good enough at Fighting Games because of supposedly not playing them before, (and apparently somehow because of being a PvE player in your mind, I guess you don't believe the ArcheAge thing?)
I believe Noaani. We don't have to agree on it. I was trying to bridge a gap to common ground. There is none, so we can drop it. Agree to disagree?
Uuhh common ground is randomly saying Noaani plays fighting games without knowing much about him or what games he plays or how he plays. If you are done attempting to get a reaction out of me for no reason on this topic I'm good. Rather keep the conversation realistic than discussing what if things on forums that had nothing to do with the current discussion.
Being which you can have action combat with all the depth of previous mmorpgs....
Ok let's try this then, since you are pointing it out.
You just admitted that Soul Calibur is a slower game, but is 3D.
2D Games are faster and require better twitch skills and movement at high levels. 3D games are slower and require more decisions and thinking/range/planning at high levels. You prefer the 3D game (and you think it takes MORE decisions, I think?).
Action Games are faster and require better twitch skills and movement at high levels. Tab Target games are lower and require more decisions and thinking/range/planning at high levels. Noaani prefers Tab Target games.
You don't see me going '3D games are slow and take no skill what are you even talking about everyone knows that 2D games are better because they are fast and require actual reactions and aiming', right?
That's what you sound like, to Noaani.
EDIT: In case unclear, this is my ATTEMPT to move on with the topic while still not 'wasting' the conversation we just had, but I also gotta go stream a 'bot' so back in like 30 I hope.
You are missing the point. I say you have have the depth of a mmorpg with action combat. I have clearly started you swap all tab skills to action with the same effect and you have the exact same depth but with action combat.
We also have stated about physical skill and knowledge skill wise (referring as the depth in a tab target game) as both with their own skill, which means it can be combined (not that that is new as action elements have been being added tot ab games for ages).
Noaani says devs can't/ won't do it and thinks players can't handle it.
I say players can handle it and it will create a difficult game....
I moreso was trying to get to the next part of the point.
No one makes 3D Fighting Games with 5 frame normals. PART of this is because it makes the animation look janky, but that's not always the reason. Some go down to 9 frames on the fastest ones, but the 'comfortable range' for most players is 10-12. There is a physical reason for this, I just don't know if you're aware of it or believe in it.
So your point is SIMILAR to 'devs could just make 3D games with 6f jabs and it would be fine'. Devs don't agree, which is why they don't make them. The real reason is that the specifics of the way 3D games work in terms of movement don't allow them to have a deep system starting from 6f normals. If anything it would reduce the skill cap and the game would become simpler and annoying. It's not IMPOSSIBLE, it's just a BAD IDEA.
It would become simple in the WAY that a 2D game becomes simple, but a lot less fun, because the thing it would take away is related to the sidesteps and movements, the '8-way run' you refer to. It would sort of 'turn it into a 2D game' and then the EXPERIENCE of playing it would stop having all the cool decision making.
So if you add too much Action Elements to a Tab Target style game, the same thing happens. Some people LIKE that, the same way some people 'like 2D games and don't care about sidestep'. But the 'cap' of 'what you can get into a Fighting Game is limited by frame data, you can't have a game that has proper sidesteps AND 6f jabs that most people can physically play, so Developers don't do it.
I guess this is more of me trying to make something useful out of all that stuff above for others. I don't really need you to respond if you don't understand why I say the stuff above. If you just 'believe that you can have a good 3D game with 6F jabs' and it would just 'raise the skill floor', then there's no need to respond to it. I was just hoping you could understand the Tab vs Action thing from that perspective.
Ya we aren't going to see eye to eye on this. You are trying to argue in your opinion based on your reason people can't do things, i believe they can do it and make the correct judgements with the increased skill ceiling.
Ya we aren't going to see eye to eye on this. You are trying to argue in your opinion based on your reason people can't do things, i believe they can do it and make the correct judgements with the increased skill ceiling.
One question though. You obviously value proof for any kinds of statements. Do you have any proof for this particular statement?
Cause yeah, proper action combat in mmos might be a somewhat new thing, but in every action mmo so far there hasn't even been an attempt to make is as super difficult as you say it could be. And iirc Wildstar had action combat and was considered a hardcore mmo and I'm pretty sure that shit died real quick.
So to me this seems like most people don't want the kind of game you claim action mmos can be. Yes, people might like action combat more than tab, for one reason or the other, but so far history has shown that they prefer it in its current design. And that design is super easy, with main difficulty coming purely from the fact that you gotta aim your mouse a bit better than in tab games.
Ya we aren't going to see eye to eye on this. You are trying to argue in your opinion based on your reason people can't do things, i believe they can do it and make the correct judgements with the increased skill ceiling.
One question though. You obviously value proof for any kinds of statements. Do you have any proof for this particular statement?
Cause yeah, proper action combat in mmos might be a somewhat new thing, but in every action mmo so far there hasn't even been an attempt to make is as super difficult as you say it could be. And iirc Wildstar had action combat and was considered a hardcore mmo and I'm pretty sure that shit died real quick.
So to me this seems like most people don't want the kind of game you claim action mmos can be. Yes, people might like action combat more than tab, for one reason or the other, but so far history has shown that they prefer it in its current design. And that design is super easy, with main difficulty coming purely from the fact that you gotta aim your mouse a bit better than in tab games.
I could reference lost ark with their raids, before people had figured out all the mechs and such and were overgeared. I'm sure that took quite a bit of time, though by the time it came here we would have guides for everything.
There hasnt been many new mmorpgs, companies care more about greed than anything else, and the action mmorpgs are new in comparison compared to the many developers that worked on many tab mmorpgs over the years.
So by default there are less examples. But if we look at BDO from a skill stand point and nothing else they have like 30 skills available for players regardless of what is use or not. That game being a heavy action mmorpg shows other ones don't need to goa bad route like new world, and have have plenty of skills to use and all the effects to comes with it.
What i kind interesting with the same few people rather than having a discussion how to grow it, or how it can work, or what would be fun with how things can be they dismiss it and say tis not possible and create weird arguments to convince people it can't be done. That honestly isn't normal to be trying to convince people it can't be done when mechanically it clearly can. Than it is testing and pushing it further at that point to get towards the sweet spot on creating a great experience like that.
I wouldn't say people want it to be designed easy, people just play what is given to them as there is little to no choice in the mmorpg genre. People want complicated designs, good combat, actual meaningful skill choice, etc.
As i said before lets say in the perfect system they can get pretty much mostly there but they need to scale some mechanics back that were relied upon to add difficulty in terms of creating content around trackers. So rather than needing people to use trackers to be effective that content is in the game and reliant upon the player skill. If that is the trade off then that is fine to me with that example.
But honestly this argument on them thinking players decisions are maxed out so you can't have action combat in the game, honestly sounds like one of the most scape goat things I've ever heard. In order to refuse action combat or having general discussions on how it can work and just used to validate having a closed mind to it.
Wildstar is early on in action mmo development so it doesn't surprise me some wouldn't kick off as much, and also aall mmorpgs died in face of WoW. Swtor, rift, Age of conan, warhammer, city of heroes, champions online, the list goes on, all dead.
Wildstar is early on in action mmo development so it doesn't surprise me some wouldn't kick off as much, and also aall mmorpgs died in face of WoW. Swtor, rift, Age of conan, warhammer, city of heroes, champions online, the list goes on, all dead.
Wildstar came out barely 2 years before BDO, with it going f2p one year before BDO's release. That's not even a gamer generation apart, so in theory it should've had the same potential playerbase as BDO, yet it still died.
I just rewatched the "death of a game" video on it and I guess its demise could be chalked up to mismanagement rather than purely difficulty. But at this point every single mmo outside of ff14 seems to be dying at the hands of poor management or greedy execs. And unless we get another "Steven", I doubt any company would be willing to risk a shitton of money by making a truly hardcore action mmo.
And as for LA, I personally see it as more of a 2d game rather than a 3d one. It might have some reactionary difficulty, but you're still just moving around a flat plain. Like, I just watched this video and it's all just "memorize this and react somewhat quickly to this" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZhcS_sKgQk
While yes, that is difficult to do, I don't consider that mechanically difficult. And ff14 already has around this lvl of complexity for its ultimates too, and iirc Noaani said that ff14's ultimates are not as complex as EQ2's top raids are.
But here's a question now, do you really think you'd be able to do all of those mechanics while also having a third dimension in the game? That is, jumping over stuff, aiming at correct vertical points, all while tracking buffs and debuffs on top of that.
I'm fairly sure that this would just be a starting point of difficulty for someone like Noaani or Azherae. And they think that normal humans would be unable to keep track of all of these mechanics for 15-20 minutes of a single non-stop action fight.
[
Unsure where this is coming from, I've never mention head shots.
Your ego is showing. I never mentioned you or anything you said specifically in my post.
Last I checked this is a public forum. You are also free to respond or ignore post of people option is completely your choice. Better than snide remarks.
Same could have been applied to your assumption that a reply to the thread in general was a direct response to you. We're all flawed and humanity is doomed for it.
Wildstar is early on in action mmo development so it doesn't surprise me some wouldn't kick off as much, and also aall mmorpgs died in face of WoW. Swtor, rift, Age of conan, warhammer, city of heroes, champions online, the list goes on, all dead.
Wildstar came out barely 2 years before BDO, with it going f2p one year before BDO's release. That's not even a gamer generation apart, so in theory it should've had the same potential playerbase as BDO, yet it still died.
I just rewatched the "death of a game" video on it and I guess its demise could be chalked up to mismanagement rather than purely difficulty. But at this point every single mmo outside of ff14 seems to be dying at the hands of poor management or greedy execs. And unless we get another "Steven", I doubt any company would be willing to risk a shitton of money by making a truly hardcore action mmo.
And as for LA, I personally see it as more of a 2d game rather than a 3d one. It might have some reactionary difficulty, but you're still just moving around a flat plain. Like, I just watched this video and it's all just "memorize this and react somewhat quickly to this" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZhcS_sKgQk
While yes, that is difficult to do, I don't consider that mechanically difficult. And ff14 already has around this lvl of complexity for its ultimates too, and iirc Noaani said that ff14's ultimates are not as complex as EQ2's top raids are.
But here's a question now, do you really think you'd be able to do all of those mechanics while also having a third dimension in the game? That is, jumping over stuff, aiming at correct vertical points, all while tracking buffs and debuffs on top of that.
I'm fairly sure that this would just be a starting point of difficulty for someone like Noaani or Azherae. And they think that normal humans would be unable to keep track of all of these mechanics for 15-20 minutes of a single non-stop action fight.
I gotta say I totally enjoyed that vid. That looked kinda fun.
I gotta say I totally enjoyed that vid. That looked kinda fun.
Yeah, it'd definitely be a nice memory and reactions practice. Though, from what I've heard of LA's gearing system, you'd have to suffer through the game to enjoy this endgame raid. But I guess you're somewhat used to suffering through games, considering your experience with BDO
I gotta say I totally enjoyed that vid. That looked kinda fun.
Yeah, it'd definitely be a nice memory and reactions practice. Though, from what I've heard of LA's gearing system, you'd have to suffer through the game to enjoy this endgame raid. But I guess you're somewhat used to suffering through games, considering your experience with BDO
It's been REALLY hard lately on the BDO front, let me tell ya... But I must persevere for the sake of knowledge!
Anyways back to the Raid. I hope (but don't expect) that the streamer was being at least somewhat hyperbolic about how much lower WoW Raids are in comparison. I've only mostly watched 'WoW raids where the Add-ons do all the work' and 'joke ones', which both seemed at least somewhat decent, if still scripted.
Nothing wrong with a good scripted encounter like this, and it does have some randomization, but it's also a lot more 'do it until you figure out what's going on mechanically and then repeat', yes. It's just a 'style thing'.
I'd say 'if you put this into EQ or FFXI' the equivalent fight would not be very different except that you'd have to build up coordinated methods for big damage opportunities, and most likely the Meteors and Black Hole would be random. The 'alternate dimension' stuff would be a good addition too, maybe some 1v1 fights to get out of the situation.
The main difference is that I don't think it would be the final boss, it would probably be just some middle-road story battle. I don't think that Action would make this particularly difficult, I don't think it's intended to be that type of 'difficult'.
An Action Game 'difficult' version of this would require your Mage to deflect the Meteors above your heads as they fall, AT the target, while the offtank protects the Mage from everything else, and the MainTank tries to keep the target in position for getting hit by the deflected meteors.
The Ranger, Summoner, Fighter and Rogue would get sucked into the cool 1v1 scenarios and get to flex their skills. Good times all around, looking forward to anything on this level (but admittedly yes, I would be sad if this wasn't 'Tier 3' raid content, out of 6-7)
Comments
I will remind you that I know EXACTLY how long you were on 'top' because I can CHECK that.
I can ASK people to DOUBLE check that.
Do not embarrass yourself here. There is no need to pursue this point.
The only reason anyone has any reason to believe that you were 'top 10 in Soul Calibur' was your screenshot, right?
It's trivial for someone like me to check EXACTLY when THAT Rank point number would have been in Top 10 range on XBox. I am not 'here to call you out'. You can ignore everything that even started this, I was trying to make a comparison based on top end play in FAST fighting games.
You have only seriously played a SLOW one. There was no point to even make, that's on me.
Why are you lying lol.
No you actually started this by saying someone you have never seen play games can beat people top 10 suddenly in fighting games confident without evidence or even knowing what games he plays besides mmorpgs.
You are free if you can to check my rank and see if it was only 6 days for where my ran was around the top 10 markers for higher and below.
Either you are lying or assuming, if you are sololy going based on the screen shots i showed that does not show the full picture on range of me playing the game.
Ok wait. You said 'I am free to check your rank'.
I checked your rank.
You were top 10 for 6 days.
There you go.
EDIT: Do you see my point here? I'm the ONLY one who cares about this and even I barely care, this is a dumb derail based on a mistake I made about your experience.
Everyone else (who isn't in my group and therefore gets the same information) can just assume I'm lying because you said so. I will go with what I found. If you want to convince ME that the information I have is wrong, do that.
If you want to convince OTHER people, just call me a liar or manipulative repeatedly or something. This is pointless. I was just telling you 'don't bring up the Top 10 thing because my information shows me that it wasn't that important'.
Otherwise you're just 'claiming you were top 10' in a game that basically shriveled up within 3 months of release, and claiming it on the less competitive platform.
Why even bother?
I've also haven't seen any proof from him on the things he's said, but to me (and seemingly to Azherae) it's a simple case of "true until proven otherwise". Noaani is a random person on the internet that might not even exist. Though keeping up the same persona for over a decade, as shown by the EQ2 forums link, would require a lot of commitment. Probably as much commitment as one would need in order to get good enough at SC to beat both you and Azherae.
If you are going to say something you know you should actually use proof instead of just saying something online. It will sound a lot more believable btw.
Good. Then just ignore it. Since I am not going to reveal my sources, nor am I going to compromise YOU in any way, you can assume 'it really looks like I am just lying' and other people will just assume I'm lying.
You don't have to worry about it if it isn't believable, and I don't care about it anymore. I have learned the most important aspect of this.
You have not seriously played any fast fighting games, so you did not understand the point I was making.
@Azherae
Thing is playing a lot doesn't mean he will be better its a different skill set of a fighting game and a mmorpg. This argument is akin if anyone plays a lot they can beat any person that is extremely skilled in the game. And reading tracking sheets or crunching numbers is not going to make you win against a better player in a fighting game.
Questions are what proof is there that he has played on a higher level, age, has he played fighting games in the past and grown up with them, as he played the suggest fighting game before to begin with, how many hours has he spent with those games.
If you are going on a assumption that first most he has not stated as far as i believe on playing fighting games to any kind of extreme value so arguing he is going to beat someone who didn't just play it but reached the top and fought some very competitive players is a bit weird.
Or are we saying if he played fighting games while growing, up and played these games instead of mmorpgs than maybe he could beat you because I believe he is a good gamer even though i haven't seen anything. and even though you have shown stuff and proved it I think he could beat you just because i believe it.
That is just kind of weird, to say if he played the game he could get decent, maybe he might. But I'm not talking about decent to beat me when I was at the time so using me as a reference doesn't make a lot of sense. Unless you are just trying to say it to get some raise out of me. I don't need to be defensive about it because what you are saying doesn't make sense to me as a competitive player.
I was trying to make it clear that you should assume that Noaani is the type of person that understands the same things that you and I understand.
However, you have clarified that your experience wouldn't lead to the same understanding anyway.
You're right, I shouldn't have used that reference. It WAS definitely meant to affect you, I wanted you to stop and think 'well maybe I can see how a high level PvP ArcheAge player might be good at this' because I thought you would realize 'oh, yeah, because the skill types carry over from game to game'.
But you only played one game seriously enough, and the one game you played is a slower one, so I can see why you wouldn't conclude that the way I do. I'm not going to try to convince you that the skills transfer, if you've never experienced it and don't believe it works that way.
I just incorrectly thought that you would agree with me about that, so I made an appeal to your experience.
Soulcalibur is my fighting game and it is plenty fast and you can 8 way run, plenty or decisions to do, and a massive command list for mix ups.
Since we are going off opinions for me Soulcalibur just takes far more skill than a 2d fighter there is a lot more depth to it. Soulcalibur is plenty fast if you are skilled and know how to play.
If you had sources you have permission to share whatever you like it doesn't change anything about the the topic you brought up on someone that doesn't play these games beating me.
Now if you brought up everquest 1 and he played it im sure i can say he would beat me in that game since I was a small child when I played it.
Wouldnt it be something if Intrepid could surprise us all. Can anyone imagine the Devs creating something that will appeal most of us. We are all hopeful for something engaging! So lets keep the positive vibes!
Hey, I dont care if they take the ideas from MOBAS, FPS, other MMOs, etc.
And if they value Risk and Reward, that should also be applied in some way, shape or form in every aspect, including combat.
What is the risk? What are the rewards? Players need to develop the skills necessary to play their class effectively.
Also, no judgement. Not every player needs to get to an expert level in everything. That is one of the perks of an MMO. Everyone has the opportunity to explore, and pursue what they enjoy.
Some folks only care about their finances in-game, others like to play with friends and family, there are the competitive ones, etc.
One thing is for sure, a lot of people dont want to re-experience the failures or the aspects they dislike from previous MMOs.
No pressure, DEVS!
Be well all!
The fastest startup normal attack in the game is 12 frames. This is equivalent to the SLOWEST startup normal attack in games I play.
So in Soul Calibur, you have to make decisions at only 1/2 of the speed that you make those decisions in Melty Blood (it's closer to 1/4 speed).
I'm not saying that Soul Calibur is some sort of super slow easy game. I'm saying it's slowER. Can we leave it at that?
That is 2d, there is a lot more decisions in a 3d fighting since you have 8 way run, meaning you have to think of a lot more. But we can leave it at that that wasn't the point anyway.
It was you saying someone could beat me, that you haven't seen play games or understand how competitive he was even though you are aware he is a pve players... Yet me having shown actual stuff and that i was on top of the leaderboard you say I can't win. It isn't even that you are saying he can, it is just this statement in general isn't bound by logic.
If you saw him game, be very competitive, be a good player, also saw him play fighting games and plenty of them.
I'd have no issue, id be im rusty but lets run it. A good challenge is always fun, even more so since its hard to find people on that game now adays. Or me being rusty still gets me kicked out of rooms for winning so i have less people to fight.
I'm really hoping that we get some good choices for both paths in Healing skills as they promised. I won't mind if the tradeoff for high-healing Action-Heals is having to be close to the target, for example, since this is at least a DECENT threat in PvE. Also, throwing out big sudden heals is an easy way to get hate in a game like this, so you'd have to synergize with your Tank and not just 'oh I'll stand here because my heal is so strong but nothing will ever hit me anyway'.
If enemies have cleaving attacks, even better for balance.
I hope that backline healers get 'consistency' and frontline healers get something LIKE 'power' with the tradeoff of 'danger' and that the PvE design means that the danger isn't something you can just cheese your way out of. I think most people would be happy at that point.
Again, I absolutely understand that your experience and conclusions don't match mine.
This is fine. You believe that Noaani would not be good enough at Fighting Games because of supposedly not playing them before, (and apparently somehow because of being a PvE player in your mind, I guess you don't believe the ArcheAge thing?)
I believe Noaani. We don't have to agree on it. I was trying to bridge a gap to common ground. There is none, so we can drop it. Agree to disagree?
Uuhh common ground is randomly saying Noaani plays fighting games without knowing much about him or what games he plays or how he plays. If you are done attempting to get a reaction out of me for no reason on this topic I'm good. Rather keep the conversation realistic than discussing what if things on forums that had nothing to do with the current discussion.
Being which you can have action combat with all the depth of previous mmorpgs....
Ok let's try this then, since you are pointing it out.
You just admitted that Soul Calibur is a slower game, but is 3D.
2D Games are faster and require better twitch skills and movement at high levels. 3D games are slower and require more decisions and thinking/range/planning at high levels. You prefer the 3D game (and you think it takes MORE decisions, I think?).
Action Games are faster and require better twitch skills and movement at high levels. Tab Target games are lower and require more decisions and thinking/range/planning at high levels. Noaani prefers Tab Target games.
You don't see me going '3D games are slow and take no skill what are you even talking about everyone knows that 2D games are better because they are fast and require actual reactions and aiming', right?
That's what you sound like, to Noaani.
EDIT: In case unclear, this is my ATTEMPT to move on with the topic while still not 'wasting' the conversation we just had, but I also gotta go stream a 'bot' so back in like 30 I hope.
You are missing the point. I say you have have the depth of a mmorpg with action combat. I have clearly started you swap all tab skills to action with the same effect and you have the exact same depth but with action combat.
We also have stated about physical skill and knowledge skill wise (referring as the depth in a tab target game) as both with their own skill, which means it can be combined (not that that is new as action elements have been being added tot ab games for ages).
Noaani says devs can't/ won't do it and thinks players can't handle it.
I say players can handle it and it will create a difficult game....
I moreso was trying to get to the next part of the point.
No one makes 3D Fighting Games with 5 frame normals. PART of this is because it makes the animation look janky, but that's not always the reason. Some go down to 9 frames on the fastest ones, but the 'comfortable range' for most players is 10-12. There is a physical reason for this, I just don't know if you're aware of it or believe in it.
So your point is SIMILAR to 'devs could just make 3D games with 6f jabs and it would be fine'. Devs don't agree, which is why they don't make them. The real reason is that the specifics of the way 3D games work in terms of movement don't allow them to have a deep system starting from 6f normals. If anything it would reduce the skill cap and the game would become simpler and annoying. It's not IMPOSSIBLE, it's just a BAD IDEA.
It would become simple in the WAY that a 2D game becomes simple, but a lot less fun, because the thing it would take away is related to the sidesteps and movements, the '8-way run' you refer to. It would sort of 'turn it into a 2D game' and then the EXPERIENCE of playing it would stop having all the cool decision making.
So if you add too much Action Elements to a Tab Target style game, the same thing happens. Some people LIKE that, the same way some people 'like 2D games and don't care about sidestep'. But the 'cap' of 'what you can get into a Fighting Game is limited by frame data, you can't have a game that has proper sidesteps AND 6f jabs that most people can physically play, so Developers don't do it.
I guess this is more of me trying to make something useful out of all that stuff above for others. I don't really need you to respond if you don't understand why I say the stuff above. If you just 'believe that you can have a good 3D game with 6F jabs' and it would just 'raise the skill floor', then there's no need to respond to it. I was just hoping you could understand the Tab vs Action thing from that perspective.
Cause yeah, proper action combat in mmos might be a somewhat new thing, but in every action mmo so far there hasn't even been an attempt to make is as super difficult as you say it could be. And iirc Wildstar had action combat and was considered a hardcore mmo and I'm pretty sure that shit died real quick.
So to me this seems like most people don't want the kind of game you claim action mmos can be. Yes, people might like action combat more than tab, for one reason or the other, but so far history has shown that they prefer it in its current design. And that design is super easy, with main difficulty coming purely from the fact that you gotta aim your mouse a bit better than in tab games.
I could reference lost ark with their raids, before people had figured out all the mechs and such and were overgeared. I'm sure that took quite a bit of time, though by the time it came here we would have guides for everything.
There hasnt been many new mmorpgs, companies care more about greed than anything else, and the action mmorpgs are new in comparison compared to the many developers that worked on many tab mmorpgs over the years.
So by default there are less examples. But if we look at BDO from a skill stand point and nothing else they have like 30 skills available for players regardless of what is use or not. That game being a heavy action mmorpg shows other ones don't need to goa bad route like new world, and have have plenty of skills to use and all the effects to comes with it.
What i kind interesting with the same few people rather than having a discussion how to grow it, or how it can work, or what would be fun with how things can be they dismiss it and say tis not possible and create weird arguments to convince people it can't be done. That honestly isn't normal to be trying to convince people it can't be done when mechanically it clearly can. Than it is testing and pushing it further at that point to get towards the sweet spot on creating a great experience like that.
I wouldn't say people want it to be designed easy, people just play what is given to them as there is little to no choice in the mmorpg genre. People want complicated designs, good combat, actual meaningful skill choice, etc.
As i said before lets say in the perfect system they can get pretty much mostly there but they need to scale some mechanics back that were relied upon to add difficulty in terms of creating content around trackers. So rather than needing people to use trackers to be effective that content is in the game and reliant upon the player skill. If that is the trade off then that is fine to me with that example.
But honestly this argument on them thinking players decisions are maxed out so you can't have action combat in the game, honestly sounds like one of the most scape goat things I've ever heard. In order to refuse action combat or having general discussions on how it can work and just used to validate having a closed mind to it.
Wildstar is early on in action mmo development so it doesn't surprise me some wouldn't kick off as much, and also aall mmorpgs died in face of WoW. Swtor, rift, Age of conan, warhammer, city of heroes, champions online, the list goes on, all dead.
I did so (rather I had someone else play it and did analysis) based on a suggestion from another forum poster here.
some of my guildies played that game. I dont know much about it though.
I just rewatched the "death of a game" video on it and I guess its demise could be chalked up to mismanagement rather than purely difficulty. But at this point every single mmo outside of ff14 seems to be dying at the hands of poor management or greedy execs. And unless we get another "Steven", I doubt any company would be willing to risk a shitton of money by making a truly hardcore action mmo.
And as for LA, I personally see it as more of a 2d game rather than a 3d one. It might have some reactionary difficulty, but you're still just moving around a flat plain. Like, I just watched this video and it's all just "memorize this and react somewhat quickly to this"
While yes, that is difficult to do, I don't consider that mechanically difficult. And ff14 already has around this lvl of complexity for its ultimates too, and iirc Noaani said that ff14's ultimates are not as complex as EQ2's top raids are.
But here's a question now, do you really think you'd be able to do all of those mechanics while also having a third dimension in the game? That is, jumping over stuff, aiming at correct vertical points, all while tracking buffs and debuffs on top of that.
I'm fairly sure that this would just be a starting point of difficulty for someone like Noaani or Azherae. And they think that normal humans would be unable to keep track of all of these mechanics for 15-20 minutes of a single non-stop action fight.
Same could have been applied to your assumption that a reply to the thread in general was a direct response to you. We're all flawed and humanity is doomed for it.
I gotta say I totally enjoyed that vid. That looked kinda fun.
It's been REALLY hard lately on the BDO front, let me tell ya... But I must persevere for the sake of knowledge!
Anyways back to the Raid. I hope (but don't expect) that the streamer was being at least somewhat hyperbolic about how much lower WoW Raids are in comparison. I've only mostly watched 'WoW raids where the Add-ons do all the work' and 'joke ones', which both seemed at least somewhat decent, if still scripted.
Nothing wrong with a good scripted encounter like this, and it does have some randomization, but it's also a lot more 'do it until you figure out what's going on mechanically and then repeat', yes. It's just a 'style thing'.
I'd say 'if you put this into EQ or FFXI' the equivalent fight would not be very different except that you'd have to build up coordinated methods for big damage opportunities, and most likely the Meteors and Black Hole would be random. The 'alternate dimension' stuff would be a good addition too, maybe some 1v1 fights to get out of the situation.
The main difference is that I don't think it would be the final boss, it would probably be just some middle-road story battle. I don't think that Action would make this particularly difficult, I don't think it's intended to be that type of 'difficult'.
An Action Game 'difficult' version of this would require your Mage to deflect the Meteors above your heads as they fall, AT the target, while the offtank protects the Mage from everything else, and the MainTank tries to keep the target in position for getting hit by the deflected meteors.
The Ranger, Summoner, Fighter and Rogue would get sucked into the cool 1v1 scenarios and get to flex their skills. Good times all around, looking forward to anything on this level (but admittedly yes, I would be sad if this wasn't 'Tier 3' raid content, out of 6-7)