Don't agree player has too much to worry about, unless you are going to provide an example this won't get anywhere.
I mean, a number of games are full of examples of it, but you need to play them to understand.
The problem with what you are saying here is that you are looking for evidence of a statement (which in itself is fair enough), but the facts of the statement preclude that evidence existing outside of first hand experience.
A number of EQ2 Avatar encounters would - at various times - fit the desired description.
However, there is no information on those encounters at those times at all, and in the case of those encounters, they dont even exist in that game any more.
The thing is though, you've already provided an example of a game that increases things in one direction, but takes away from it in another. Soul Caliber allows movement in 8 directions, but is a slower game than fighting games that only have 2D movement.
The fact that you claim to not understand the point I made about games taking from one area if they are adding to another area is just baffling even without your Soul Caliber experience. With that experience in mind though, you need to be willfully not understanding - as in you will not understand simply because you do not want to understand.
Don't agree player has too much to worry about, unless you are going to provide an example this won't get anywhere.
I mean, a number of games are full of examples of it, but you need to play them to understand.
The problem with what you are saying here is that you are looking for evidence of a statement (which in itself is fair enough), but the facts of the statement preclude that evidence existing outside of first hand experience.
A number of EQ2 Avatar encounters would - at various times - fit the desired description.
However, there is no information on those encounters at those times at all, and in the case of those encounters, they dont even exist in that game any more.
The thing is though, you've already provided an example of a game that increases things in one direction, but takes away from it in another. Soul Caliber allows movement in 8 directions, but is a slower game than fighting games that only have 2D movement.
The fact that you claim to not understand the point I made about games taking from one area if they are adding to another area is just baffling even without your Soul Caliber experience. With that experience in mind though, you need to be willfully not understanding - as in you will not understand simply because you do not want to understand.
This statement makes no sense on a game being slower. Moving in 8 directions dose not make a game slower...How do you even logically get to this point that a game can't be designed faster as if coding doesn't allow it?
I'm baffled by the fact you cant understand what someone is saying, simply because it goes against what you think. So you assume it isn't possible when design wise it is.
What you are doing is akin to saying people can't do things, and people can't handle more complex task. Which goes against you complaining about the difficulty of mmorpgs and worried it will be too easy.
People are clearly capable of a lot more than you realize since you use the skewed view point to try to use that as a means to attempt to reduce action combat elements by not acknowledging under your bias pretense that tab takes more skill when it does not.
Which makes 0 sense because you are after saying it is too difficulty for people to have both at the same time....Also which makes 0 sense and not backed by any actual facts except for bias.
What you are doing is akin to saying people can't do things, and people can't handle more complex task. Which goes against you complaining about the difficulty of mmorpgs and worried it will be too easy.
People are clearly capable of a lot more than you realize since you use the skewed view point to try to use that as a means to attempt to reduce action combat elements by not acknowledging under your bias pretense that tab takes more skill when it does not.
Which makes 0 sense because you are after saying it is too difficulty for people to have both at the same time....Also which makes 0 sense and not backed by any actual facts except for bias.
Some people definitely wouldn't be capable, but I'd argue it's not about "being able to" do things. It's rather about not wanting or not enjoying doing those things.
And again, usually tab-target games have way more depth and strategy included, compared to action-combat games, which rely more on mechanical skill. I'm not saying action-combat games require no strategy, nor that they have 0 depth, it's different for each game.
It would definitely lean more towards "not being able to" if we had both the depth, strategy, etc. of a tab-target game, and all the mechanical stuff from action-combat game.
From what I understand, the example given to you demonstrated it perfectly. Once you add more depth, more things to do, more strategy, etc. you give up other things in order to make it work.
I haven't played any of those games, but that's what I understood the argument to be about, just by reading the last page of this thread. It seems like you failed to understand it.
Anyways, I don't want to engage in this argument, as I have no experience in those games, nor do I wish to argue with you ever again.
What you are doing is akin to saying people can't do things, and people can't handle more complex task. Which goes against you complaining about the difficulty of mmorpgs and worried it will be too easy.
People are clearly capable of a lot more than you realize since you use the skewed view point to try to use that as a means to attempt to reduce action combat elements by not acknowledging under your bias pretense that tab takes more skill when it does not.
Which makes 0 sense because you are after saying it is too difficulty for people to have both at the same time....Also which makes 0 sense and not backed by any actual facts except for bias.
Some people definitely wouldn't be capable, but I'd argue it's not about "being able to" do things. It's rather about not wanting or not enjoying doing those things.
And again, usually tab-target games have way more depth and strategy included, compared to action-combat games, which rely more on mechanical skill. I'm not saying action-combat games require no strategy, nor that they have 0 depth, it's different for each game.
It would definitely lean more towards "not being able to" if we had both the depth, strategy, etc. of a tab-target game, and all the mechanical stuff from action-combat game.
From what I understand, the example given to you demonstrated it perfectly. Once you add more depth, more things to do, more strategy, etc. you give up other things in order to make it work.
I haven't played any of those games, but that's what I understood the argument to be about, just by reading the last page of this thread. It seems like you failed to understand it.
Anyways, I don't want to engage in this argument, as I have no experience in those games, nor do I wish to argue with you ever again.
You aren't giving up anything is the point to keep it simple, all concepts remain in the game.
This statement makes no sense on a game being slower. Moving in 8 directions dose not make a game slower...How do you even logically get to this point that a game can't be designed faster as if coding doesn't allow it?
You can create a game, needing a totally perfect accuracy with less than 1 millimeter of window, and less than 1 millisecond timing. and this with a sniper allowing you to hit from 100 meters distance
But because you want people play and enjoy your game, you will lower those requirement, making time to react slightly bigger like 100 milli second and the area to hit being at list 10 millimeter. and the distance being now only 10m
And we can admit that it would be still not so easy to hit but it becomes possible...
or... return to 100 meter but the time to shoot is now 1 second. get it to one minute but fall back to 1 millimeter for the size area you want to hit.
What i tried to show is simply that difficulty is based on different values (mechanics being mostly... values)
And we, human, have our own limits, 3D fighting games totally feels (at least for me) slower than 2D one, but, because they add a depth in decision making with this third axis to use allowing far more way to avoid damages. you added a value, and to continue to have a decent game you did a slightly lower of another value. Both game can totally be as difficulty to fully master, and have both really interesting competition for competitors.
You can't just do a stupid addition of all difficulty factor, and push them always higher. because you could reach a point where your game is so hard that nearly no one is interested.
You can't put ALL element from tab targetting to action,
i love both tab and action, and i would love to see action with more "buffs/debuffs" mechanics than currently, and also i prefer tab games which have more "action" part than the "2 big" (ffxiv/wow). But all have its limit, And faster the decision making has to be, the lesser the amount of data your decision are based on is.
This statement makes no sense on a game being slower. Moving in 8 directions dose not make a game slower...How do you even logically get to this point that a game can't be designed faster as if coding doesn't allow it?
You can create a game, needing a totally perfect accuracy with less than 1 millimeter of window, and less than 1 millisecond timing. and this with a sniper allowing you to hit from 100 meters distance
But because you want people play and enjoy your game, you will lower those requirement, making time to react slightly bigger like 100 milli second and the area to hit being at list 10 millimeter. and the distance being now only 10m
And we can admit that it would be still not so easy to hit but it becomes possible...
or... return to 100 meter but the time to shoot is now 1 second. get it to one minute but fall back to 1 millimeter for the size area you want to hit.
What i tried to show is simply that difficulty is based on different values (mechanics being mostly... values)
And we, human, have our own limits, 3D fighting games totally feels (at least for me) slower than 2D one, but, because they add a depth in decision making with this third axis to use allowing far more way to avoid damages. you added a value, and to continue to have a decent game you did a slightly lower of another value. Both game can totally be as difficulty to fully master, and have both really interesting competition for competitors.
You can't just do a stupid addition of all difficulty factor, and push them always higher. because you could reach a point where your game is so hard that nearly no one is interested.
You can't put ALL element from tab targetting to action,
i love both tab and action, and i would love to see action with more "buffs/debuffs" mechanics than currently, and also i prefer tab games which have more "action" part than the "2 big" (ffxiv/wow). But all have its limit, And faster the decision making has to be, the lesser the amount of data your decision are based on is.
The thing is you can and that doesn't make a game too hard, as I've said before it opens up more mechanics for more diverse elements of gameplay and difficulty based on the content. Having more elements in a game doesn't make it too hard, and developers can scale that difficulty based on the content however they like.
@8:40 of the video, the BDO and New World mob kiting is a good example of what's wrong with Action Combat games.
Like I commented on the game using bad examples of pve does not really get a point across, he came up pretty short on that video.
1. BDO doesn't really have pve content so you can't compare it
2. In new world he should have did that in a dungeon atleast. New world is not that complex another bad example to use.
*edit Kiting issues is pretty easy to solve, if they wanted to make the game more difficult....
You wanted him to use what game as an action combat example?
Know what's really wrong with action combat games? Everyone says skill, but humans are not superheroes. Humans do not possess lightning speed, or super strength. This is one reason why action combat games are not believable. They are limited by human input speed. How can you roleplay a superior creature when your actions in game look pathetic. You need computer assistance, hence RNG.
If you're a rogue in WoW and pop evasion, do you really think you would be able to dodge every single attack from multiple opponents if you had to manually do it? No. We have limitations to our reactions, and actions and can never become better than what limits us without help.
This would be like genetically engineering a human or having cybernetic implants to improve your daily activities. If you had a processing power implant, and a cybernetic arm, you could no doubt react and physically respond far faster than our own brain and human hands can. Then you'd get suspended for using 3rd party software.....
So....you have action combat and supplement what we lack IRL with computer aid, such as RNG, or an attack that always will land, because if that character wasnt controlled by you, they would land the hit, while most would miss. Can't really roleplay a superior being when your game makes it such that you're limited by what you're trying to escape.
This is why action combat games have an ok grasp on the offensive aspect of combat, but defensive combat is traaaash.
The reason 3D games don't have fast normal attacks is because the player's character needs to be able to get out of the way.
You can't make them fast enough movement to get out of the way of a 6f attack without making the entire game practically unplayable (imagine the Fighter Dash from the melee showcase but that's how the character moves all the time... or don't imagine it and just watch BDO).
So for those you make the character just block instead of moving. Then everyone uses that attack type more often to force the opponent to block instead of moving (because the attacker did a quick thing, and wants the other player to never be able to do their own powerful slow thing). And then you have a '2D game', even if the characters have 'counters' or 'sidestep attacks', it's not really different feeling/tactics wise than a 2D game anymore.
Mag's stance is in my opinion a contradiction because Mag says 'don't make the game as fast as BDO, let it be slower' and also 'aim doesn't have to be perfect, just soft lock', and 'abilities from mobs can curve'. Basically saying 'here are the ways I think the skill requirement should be reduced'. And then disqualifies 'Tab Target' (a term referring to a targeting system, not an ability/execution function, though apparently not in Mag's experience) as a similar solution.
All while 'building up a whole system to compensate for and mimic how good Tab Target games work anyway'.
There's no need to even have the discussion. If it were up to Mag the game would require LESS skill, even physical skill, than what anyone else in this thread so far would build, I think.
The reason 3D games don't have fast normal attacks is because the player's character needs to be able to get out of the way.
You can't make them fast enough movement to get out of the way of a 6f attack without making the entire game practically unplayable (imagine the Fighter Dash from the melee showcase but that's how the character moves all the time... or don't imagine it and just watch BDO).
So for those you make the character just block instead of moving. Then everyone uses that attack type more often to force the opponent to block instead of moving (because the attacker did a quick thing, and wants the other player to never be able to do their own powerful slow thing). And then you have a '2D game', even if the characters have 'counters' or 'sidestep attacks', it's not really different feeling/tactics wise than a 2D game anymore.
Mag's stance is in my opinion a contradiction because Mag says 'don't make the game as fast as BDO, let it be slower' and also 'aim doesn't have to be perfect, just soft lock', and 'abilities from mobs can curve'. Basically saying 'here are the ways I think the skill requirement should be reduced'. And then disqualifies 'Tab Target' (a term referring to a targeting system, not an ability/execution function, though apparently not in Mag's experience) as a similar solution.
All while 'building up a whole system to compensate for and mimic how good Tab Target games work anyway'.
There's no need to even have the discussion. If it were up to Mag the game would require LESS skill, even physical skill, than what anyone else in this thread so far would build, I think.
Pretty false statement, action gameplay doesn't need exact precise shots. BDO speed is unreadable for people, pure speed doesn't mean as meaningful gameplay.
Your statement sounds full of if a game isn't doing the fullest extremes mag wants the game to have less skill involved. Action games aren't about exact aim and making a fps game lol. You will say anything to try to redirect things and try to make something more complex to try and find some reasoning to say someone else is wrong...
It isn't up to me its up to intrepid studios by the way, Last i checked they are doing 75% action or tab based on your choices. So by default if you are saying games can't do this, a game is literally doing this...
[Action games aren't about exact aim and making a fps game lol.
Imo they have to be, if they want to be truly hardcore. The whole point of action is the requirement to aim your abilities properly. And the highest difficulty in aiming is the super precise one against fast moving enemies. So, imo, by default you have to have high precision aiming in an action game to make it truly hardcore.
I'd personally do that by the way of vertical body segmentation and requirements to hit different parts of the body to have different effects on your attacks. This would work for both melee and ranged attacks. I'd then add buff/debuff dependencies between all those segmented attacks and would then test the game to see how far I could push the speed of gameplay.
Then, as you say, we just take a good complex tab game and apply its mechanics and encounters to my suggested system, while adding all the stuff I listed. And depending on how good the designers are you'd have yourself a truly hardcore action mmo, by my standards. I imagine it'd be a pain to play, but quite rewarding if you can master it.
The reason 3D games don't have fast normal attacks is because the player's character needs to be able to get out of the way.
You can't make them fast enough movement to get out of the way of a 6f attack without making the entire game practically unplayable (imagine the Fighter Dash from the melee showcase but that's how the character moves all the time... or don't imagine it and just watch BDO).
So for those you make the character just block instead of moving. Then everyone uses that attack type more often to force the opponent to block instead of moving (because the attacker did a quick thing, and wants the other player to never be able to do their own powerful slow thing). And then you have a '2D game', even if the characters have 'counters' or 'sidestep attacks', it's not really different feeling/tactics wise than a 2D game anymore.
Mag's stance is in my opinion a contradiction because Mag says 'don't make the game as fast as BDO, let it be slower' and also 'aim doesn't have to be perfect, just soft lock', and 'abilities from mobs can curve'. Basically saying 'here are the ways I think the skill requirement should be reduced'. And then disqualifies 'Tab Target' (a term referring to a targeting system, not an ability/execution function, though apparently not in Mag's experience) as a similar solution.
All while 'building up a whole system to compensate for and mimic how good Tab Target games work anyway'.
There's no need to even have the discussion. If it were up to Mag the game would require LESS skill, even physical skill, than what anyone else in this thread so far would build, I think.
Pretty false statement, action gameplay doesn't need exact precise shots. BDO speed is unreadable for people, pure speed doesn't mean as meaningful gameplay.
Your statement sounds full of if a game isn't doing the fullest extremes mag wants the game to have less skill involved. Action games aren't about exact aim and making a fps game lol. You will say anything to try to redirect things and try to make something more complex to try and find some reasoning to say someone else is wrong...
It isn't up to me its up to intrepid studios by the way, Last i checked they are doing 75% action or tab based on your choices. So by default if you are saying games can't do this, a game is literally doing this...
Oh come on, I explicitly tried so hard not to make you defensive on this.
I'm saying your stuff SEEMS like a contradiction to ME because you're reducing the skill cap. You are explicitly reducing it. BDO speed isn't unreadable for me at all.
That's why I think DarkTides' point is so correct. There's no point in making a game with defensive mechanics (or offense ones, ofc) that only superhumans CAN USE. I now understand DarkTides' perception of Action Combat games. They are not realistic because they need to be what you are saying. Slow, imprecise, and the PvE similar.
Except that we already have multiple games that don't do those things.
BDO has the speed. MineCraft requires the precision. Absolver PvE is precise.
The 'most skilled game' would be slightly higher than BDO speed (it's real speed, not the flashy distraction speed), require the precision levels of MineCraft, and have PvE enemies on the Absolver level.
And 90% of people wouldn't play it. I don't know if you would or not, but you aren't asking for that, you're asking for literally NONE of that, so you're already accepting skill tradeoffs so that the game's difficulty is lowered. You just happen to also THINK that all Tab Target games made bigger tradeoffs than that.
But they didn't. Many are 'BDO speed or higher' and 'PvE Absolver or higher', and Precision at least at what you imply. You just don't PLAY them.
The 'most skilled game' would be slightly higher than BDO speed (it's real speed, not the flashy distraction speed), require the precision levels of MineCraft, and have PvE enemies on the Absolver level.
After looking at Absolver's gameplay real fast, I'm fairly sure my idea is really close to this
The 'most skilled game' would be slightly higher than BDO speed (it's real speed, not the flashy distraction speed), require the precision levels of MineCraft, and have PvE enemies on the Absolver level.
After looking at Absolver's gameplay real fast, I'm fairly sure my idea is really close to this
Right, because you're crazy lol.
I definitely think you would want to play a game at that tier of 1v1 and input requirements, but you are REALLY not common in that regard.
[Action games aren't about exact aim and making a fps game lol.
Imo they have to be, if they want to be truly hardcore. The whole point of action is the requirement to aim your abilities properly. And the highest difficulty in aiming is the super precise one against fast moving enemies. So, imo, by default you have to have high precision aiming in an action game to make it truly hardcore.
I'd personally do that by the way of vertical body segmentation and requirements to hit different parts of the body to have different effects on your attacks. This would work for both melee and ranged attacks. I'd then add buff/debuff dependencies between all those segmented attacks and would then test the game to see how far I could push the speed of gameplay.
Then, as you say, we just take a good complex tab game and apply its mechanics and encounters to my suggested system, while adding all the stuff I listed. And depending on how good the designers are you'd have yourself a truly hardcore action mmo, by my standards. I imagine it'd be a pain to play, but quite rewarding if you can master it.
We need to remember this is action combat with a mmorpg, meaning it is taking strong elements of action and making it work in a mmorpg sense. A full action game is still a action game, and a mmorpg with action combat shouldn't really be expected to be working the same.
It should be looked at as a bar with how much of action elements can you have in it without lowering certain elements ina mmorpg. One example being stat sheets and such, in a action game when you hit you pretty much always hit. When you are thinking mmorpgs there are normally more stat sheets when you can dodge or block attacks even if you are hitting. If you do it where it always hits you are removing that quality and dialing it more towards action. Where if you have it so you can dodge still you are dialing it more towards mmorpgs.
My question would be why would you need to make a mmorpg with hardcore action elements? You can make a mmorpg without it being hardcore and dialing it towards action and making the gameplay more complex and fun with the elements that brings while keeping the standard mmorpg qualities.
Again AoC is literarily doing this as unless changed you can go 75% action based...so what I'm saying will exist in the game so saying this can't be done or developers won't do it already doesn't make sense as a few are saying.
There's no need to even have the discussion. If it were up to Mag the game would require LESS skill, even physical skill, than what anyone else in this thread so far would build, I think.
Yeah, dont tell Mag, but the combat system he says he wants is basically Archeage.
[Action games aren't about exact aim and making a fps game lol.
Imo they have to be, if they want to be truly hardcore. The whole point of action is the requirement to aim your abilities properly. And the highest difficulty in aiming is the super precise one against fast moving enemies. So, imo, by default you have to have high precision aiming in an action game to make it truly hardcore.
I'd personally do that by the way of vertical body segmentation and requirements to hit different parts of the body to have different effects on your attacks. This would work for both melee and ranged attacks. I'd then add buff/debuff dependencies between all those segmented attacks and would then test the game to see how far I could push the speed of gameplay.
Then, as you say, we just take a good complex tab game and apply its mechanics and encounters to my suggested system, while adding all the stuff I listed. And depending on how good the designers are you'd have yourself a truly hardcore action mmo, by my standards. I imagine it'd be a pain to play, but quite rewarding if you can master it.
We need to remember this is action combat with a mmorpg, meaning it is taking strong elements of action and making it work in a mmorpg sense. A full action game is still a action game, and a mmorpg with action combat shouldn't really be expected to be working the same.
It should be looked at as a bar with how much of action elements can you have in it without lowering certain elements ina mmorpg. One example being stat sheets and such, in a action game when you hit you pretty much always hit. When you are thinking mmorpgs there are normally more stat sheets when you can dodge or block attacks even if you are hitting. If you do it where it always hits you are removing that quality and dialing it more towards action. Where if you have it so you can dodge still you are dialing it more towards mmorpgs.
My question would be why would you need to make a mmorpg with hardcore action elements? You can make a mmorpg without it being hardcore and dialing it towards action and making the gameplay more complex and fun with the elements that brings while keeping the standard mmorpg qualities.
Again AoC is literarily doing this as unless changed you can go 75% action based...so what I'm saying will exist in the game so saying this can't be done or developers won't do it already doesn't make sense as a few are saying.
Right, you're saying the same thing as everyone else. In fact, nearly everyone else is more hardcore in their desires than you.
Noaani wants more hardcore strategy so the suggestion might be 'Add no more Action than is necessary/promised'.
NiKr (let's assume) wants more hardcore combat, so the suggestion might be 'Add full movement and real counters' (disqualifies a bunch of stats and converts them to physical skill requirements'.
DarkTides (let's assume) would want more hardcore realism (if Action was being added) so the suggestion might be 'add more precision and movement options' (I think this poster just moreso considers this unnecessary/useless and might prefer just stats).
Your stances is always "just lower all of them, as long as the gameplay is good", and then on top of that "Tab Target takes much less skill".
Your stance is very CLEAR. It just has a weird BASIS.
Fortunately I think that according to my data (almost counterintuitively but not really) most people who want Action Combat only want the level you are talking about, most people who want 'fluid PvP' only want the level BDO offers but even slower. Intrepid is going right for you and the more casual players, and I know that you are definitely one of their 'champions'.
Literally all I keep trying to get you to do is stop ragging on Tab Target unnecessarily. You don't want a hard game ANYWAY, let it go.
My question would be why would you need to make a mmorpg with hardcore action elements? You can make a mmorpg without it being hardcore and dialing it towards action and making the gameplay more complex and fun with the elements that brings while keeping the standard mmorpg qualities.
But the gameplay being hardcore would already come from the tab mechanics being used in an action context. I just want to add proper action gameplay, cause to me "turn your character in a direction" is skillless. Yes, the speed might be difficult to get used to, but outside of that there's no real depth to the combat.
And considering my experience in L2, I was already playing an "action" mmo with tab leaning. And I already explained why I think this. So if I was trying to play a true action mmo, I'd want smth that I suggested. The stats would still matter, because you can always design for them to matter. And iirc BDO has rng evasion mechanics even though it's THE action game of the genre.
And as Noaani said, AA appears to be quite similar to what you want, and considering that it was L2's "continuation", I can definitely see how it could be.
The reason 3D games don't have fast normal attacks is because the player's character needs to be able to get out of the way.
You can't make them fast enough movement to get out of the way of a 6f attack without making the entire game practically unplayable (imagine the Fighter Dash from the melee showcase but that's how the character moves all the time... or don't imagine it and just watch BDO).
So for those you make the character just block instead of moving. Then everyone uses that attack type more often to force the opponent to block instead of moving (because the attacker did a quick thing, and wants the other player to never be able to do their own powerful slow thing). And then you have a '2D game', even if the characters have 'counters' or 'sidestep attacks', it's not really different feeling/tactics wise than a 2D game anymore.
Mag's stance is in my opinion a contradiction because Mag says 'don't make the game as fast as BDO, let it be slower' and also 'aim doesn't have to be perfect, just soft lock', and 'abilities from mobs can curve'. Basically saying 'here are the ways I think the skill requirement should be reduced'. And then disqualifies 'Tab Target' (a term referring to a targeting system, not an ability/execution function, though apparently not in Mag's experience) as a similar solution.
All while 'building up a whole system to compensate for and mimic how good Tab Target games work anyway'.
There's no need to even have the discussion. If it were up to Mag the game would require LESS skill, even physical skill, than what anyone else in this thread so far would build, I think.
Pretty false statement, action gameplay doesn't need exact precise shots. BDO speed is unreadable for people, pure speed doesn't mean as meaningful gameplay.
Your statement sounds full of if a game isn't doing the fullest extremes mag wants the game to have less skill involved. Action games aren't about exact aim and making a fps game lol. You will say anything to try to redirect things and try to make something more complex to try and find some reasoning to say someone else is wrong...
It isn't up to me its up to intrepid studios by the way, Last i checked they are doing 75% action or tab based on your choices. So by default if you are saying games can't do this, a game is literally doing this...
Oh come on, I explicitly tried so hard not to make you defensive on this.
I'm saying your stuff SEEMS like a contradiction to ME because you're reducing the skill cap. You are explicitly reducing it. BDO speed isn't unreadable for me at all.
That's why I think DarkTides' point is so correct. There's no point in making a game with defensive mechanics (or offense ones, ofc) that only superhumans CAN USE. I now understand DarkTides' perception of Action Combat games. They are not realistic because they need to be what you are saying. Slow, imprecise, and the PvE similar.
Except that we already have multiple games that don't do those things.
BDO has the speed. MineCraft requires the precision. Absolver PvE is precise.
The 'most skilled game' would be slightly higher than BDO speed (it's real speed, not the flashy distraction speed), require the precision levels of MineCraft, and have PvE enemies on the Absolver level.
And 90% of people wouldn't play it. I don't know if you would or not, but you aren't asking for that, you're asking for literally NONE of that, so you're already accepting skill tradeoffs so that the game's difficulty is lowered. You just happen to also THINK that all Tab Target games made bigger tradeoffs than that.
But they didn't. Many are 'BDO speed or higher' and 'PvE Absolver or higher', and Precision at least at what you imply. You just don't PLAY them.
BDO isn't unreadable, do you do node, siege, large scale fights with 30 people around you attacking you at the same time, or getting attacked from render distance and not relying on a iframe spam class?
There are less people that can read it based on that kind of skill, when have i said lowered the skill cap? You are misreading what im saying while also saying the skill cap is to high so devs won't have action combat in a mmorpg with all the skills that come with it?
This logic is simply saying to make all those games faster speed wise or it has reduced skill cap. There are multiple skills players can be good at in games not simply based on speed. A game that has less incentive on fidgetily like speed but has room for other layers of elements to add skill into the game.
honestly i could contrast with too much speed takes skill away from the game since it becomes about rushing someone than thinking anything else even remotely tactically which is more akin to a mmorpg. Adding action does not make speed suddenly unreadable, unless you make the action that fast for whatever reason.
It would be like in BDO using nova to blitz someone before they can do anything and blowing them up when you get a cc and saying that takes more skill. Skill cap is push and pull, there needs to be a way to react.
The reason 3D games don't have fast normal attacks is because the player's character needs to be able to get out of the way.
You can't make them fast enough movement to get out of the way of a 6f attack without making the entire game practically unplayable (imagine the Fighter Dash from the melee showcase but that's how the character moves all the time... or don't imagine it and just watch BDO).
So for those you make the character just block instead of moving. Then everyone uses that attack type more often to force the opponent to block instead of moving (because the attacker did a quick thing, and wants the other player to never be able to do their own powerful slow thing). And then you have a '2D game', even if the characters have 'counters' or 'sidestep attacks', it's not really different feeling/tactics wise than a 2D game anymore.
Mag's stance is in my opinion a contradiction because Mag says 'don't make the game as fast as BDO, let it be slower' and also 'aim doesn't have to be perfect, just soft lock', and 'abilities from mobs can curve'. Basically saying 'here are the ways I think the skill requirement should be reduced'. And then disqualifies 'Tab Target' (a term referring to a targeting system, not an ability/execution function, though apparently not in Mag's experience) as a similar solution.
All while 'building up a whole system to compensate for and mimic how good Tab Target games work anyway'.
There's no need to even have the discussion. If it were up to Mag the game would require LESS skill, even physical skill, than what anyone else in this thread so far would build, I think.
Pretty false statement, action gameplay doesn't need exact precise shots. BDO speed is unreadable for people, pure speed doesn't mean as meaningful gameplay.
Your statement sounds full of if a game isn't doing the fullest extremes mag wants the game to have less skill involved. Action games aren't about exact aim and making a fps game lol. You will say anything to try to redirect things and try to make something more complex to try and find some reasoning to say someone else is wrong...
It isn't up to me its up to intrepid studios by the way, Last i checked they are doing 75% action or tab based on your choices. So by default if you are saying games can't do this, a game is literally doing this...
Oh come on, I explicitly tried so hard not to make you defensive on this.
I'm saying your stuff SEEMS like a contradiction to ME because you're reducing the skill cap. You are explicitly reducing it. BDO speed isn't unreadable for me at all.
That's why I think DarkTides' point is so correct. There's no point in making a game with defensive mechanics (or offense ones, ofc) that only superhumans CAN USE. I now understand DarkTides' perception of Action Combat games. They are not realistic because they need to be what you are saying. Slow, imprecise, and the PvE similar.
Except that we already have multiple games that don't do those things.
BDO has the speed. MineCraft requires the precision. Absolver PvE is precise.
The 'most skilled game' would be slightly higher than BDO speed (it's real speed, not the flashy distraction speed), require the precision levels of MineCraft, and have PvE enemies on the Absolver level.
And 90% of people wouldn't play it. I don't know if you would or not, but you aren't asking for that, you're asking for literally NONE of that, so you're already accepting skill tradeoffs so that the game's difficulty is lowered. You just happen to also THINK that all Tab Target games made bigger tradeoffs than that.
But they didn't. Many are 'BDO speed or higher' and 'PvE Absolver or higher', and Precision at least at what you imply. You just don't PLAY them.
BDO isn't unreadable, do you do node, siege, large scale fights with 30 people around you attacking you at the same time, or getting attacked from render distance and not relying on a iframe spam class?
There are less people that can read it based on that kind of skill, when have i said lowered the skill cap? You are misreading what im saying while also saying the skill cap is to high so devs won't have action combat in a mmorpg with all the skills that come with it?
This logic is simply saying to make all those games faster speed wise or it has reduced skill cap. There are multiple skills players can be good at in games not simply based on speed. A game that has less incentive on fidgetily like speed but has room for other layers of elements to add skill into the game.
honestly i could contrast with too much speed takes skill away from the game since it becomes about rushing someone than thinking anything else even remotely tactically which is more akin to a mmorpg. Adding action does not make speed suddenly unreadable, unless you make the action that fast for whatever reason.
It would be like in BDO using nova to blitz someone before they can do anything and blowing them up when you get a cc and saying that takes more skill. Skill cap is push and pull, there needs to be a way to react.
I understand that BDO [EDIT] isn't unreadable to you. It is not unreadable to me. Your perceptions make sense. You believing that more speed is less skill is EXACTLY what I'd expect given everything.
But I can't manage to not start a big defensive rant from you if I explain why, because you don't like accepting it.
You're just slow. You play a slow game in a slow style. I play a very fast game in a very fast style. I hope that Ashes is slow enough that you can enjoy it (I don't know what they were doing with that Fighter Demo that is some crazy). They're just different skills.
But I play Melty Blood, if I couldn't track BDO fights I would not even get to do anything, which is what you describe. Nova is like the second slowest class in BDO.
You're just slow. You play a slow game in a slow style. I play a very fast game in a very fast style. I hope that Ashes is slow enough that you can enjoy it (I don't know what they were doing with that Fighter Demo that is some crazy). They're just different skills.
Cause I look at the fighter's showcase and I can't see why you consider it very fast. But I'm also not used to frame readings and analysis so I might be overlooking smth very big.
Please don't make things too much faster (or at least not constant). I hope that the Fighter showcase was meant to verify the main high speed, but I don't like the stratification of player types that this would lead to in an owPvP game.
I'm sure there will be methods of being successful with slower, more defensive play, particularly if the standard Tab targeting and 'spin-to-win' Fighter options exist, for those who need them, but this path is darkness, it leads to Super Armor... and grabs...
Sure I WANT to be a healing blitz tornado of blades, but I also want normal people to be able to just 'hold block until I make a mistake' like they usually do. At least if I have to use all that speed to get behind them it might be more obvious.
My question would be why would you need to make a mmorpg with hardcore action elements? You can make a mmorpg without it being hardcore and dialing it towards action and making the gameplay more complex and fun with the elements that brings while keeping the standard mmorpg qualities.
But the gameplay being hardcore would already come from the tab mechanics being used in an action context. I just want to add proper action gameplay, cause to me "turn your character in a direction" is skillless. Yes, the speed might be difficult to get used to, but outside of that there's no real depth to the combat.
And considering my experience in L2, I was already playing an "action" mmo with tab leaning. And I already explained why I think this. So if I was trying to play a true action mmo, I'd want smth that I suggested. The stats would still matter, because you can always design for them to matter. And iirc BDO has rng evasion mechanics even though it's THE action game of the genre.
And as Noaani said, AA appears to be quite similar to what you want, and considering that it was L2's "continuation", I can definitely see how it could be.
I don't view tab mechanics being hardcore where you can't add a player needing to track and land the hits and be able to react and dodge them consistently.
Action combat adds a lot of depth with needing to land your attacks, dodge, react, etc. I don't understand how you can say it doesn't add depth unless i misread something? Needing to face who you are fighting and have some focus on them while being able to handle and dodge other things coming your way adds a lot of skill. Especially when the comparison is where you can hit tab(including enemies off screen), press your skill and it lands on them. That is not difficult for anyone to do, and had no skill element to it. Only example given where it requires some actual element of tracking is your example if they are being retargeted every few seconds. But I'd need to play to be able to fully judge it how much down time it is creating.
Old games aside like i said people have made points that games can't do it and developers won't do it yet AoC is allowing players to do 75% action or tab. So I'm curious what you have to say to that element @NiKr.
Literally all I keep trying to get you to do is stop ragging on Tab Target unnecessarily. You don't want a hard game ANYWAY, let it go.
But tab-target takes no skill, action-combat is superior and it takes skill. You want the game to be easy and you don't want the skill to matter. You only care that people can't use skill against you... /s
The reason 3D games don't have fast normal attacks is because the player's character needs to be able to get out of the way.
You can't make them fast enough movement to get out of the way of a 6f attack without making the entire game practically unplayable (imagine the Fighter Dash from the melee showcase but that's how the character moves all the time... or don't imagine it and just watch BDO).
So for those you make the character just block instead of moving. Then everyone uses that attack type more often to force the opponent to block instead of moving (because the attacker did a quick thing, and wants the other player to never be able to do their own powerful slow thing). And then you have a '2D game', even if the characters have 'counters' or 'sidestep attacks', it's not really different feeling/tactics wise than a 2D game anymore.
Mag's stance is in my opinion a contradiction because Mag says 'don't make the game as fast as BDO, let it be slower' and also 'aim doesn't have to be perfect, just soft lock', and 'abilities from mobs can curve'. Basically saying 'here are the ways I think the skill requirement should be reduced'. And then disqualifies 'Tab Target' (a term referring to a targeting system, not an ability/execution function, though apparently not in Mag's experience) as a similar solution.
All while 'building up a whole system to compensate for and mimic how good Tab Target games work anyway'.
There's no need to even have the discussion. If it were up to Mag the game would require LESS skill, even physical skill, than what anyone else in this thread so far would build, I think.
Pretty false statement, action gameplay doesn't need exact precise shots. BDO speed is unreadable for people, pure speed doesn't mean as meaningful gameplay.
Your statement sounds full of if a game isn't doing the fullest extremes mag wants the game to have less skill involved. Action games aren't about exact aim and making a fps game lol. You will say anything to try to redirect things and try to make something more complex to try and find some reasoning to say someone else is wrong...
It isn't up to me its up to intrepid studios by the way, Last i checked they are doing 75% action or tab based on your choices. So by default if you are saying games can't do this, a game is literally doing this...
Oh come on, I explicitly tried so hard not to make you defensive on this.
I'm saying your stuff SEEMS like a contradiction to ME because you're reducing the skill cap. You are explicitly reducing it. BDO speed isn't unreadable for me at all.
That's why I think DarkTides' point is so correct. There's no point in making a game with defensive mechanics (or offense ones, ofc) that only superhumans CAN USE. I now understand DarkTides' perception of Action Combat games. They are not realistic because they need to be what you are saying. Slow, imprecise, and the PvE similar.
Except that we already have multiple games that don't do those things.
BDO has the speed. MineCraft requires the precision. Absolver PvE is precise.
The 'most skilled game' would be slightly higher than BDO speed (it's real speed, not the flashy distraction speed), require the precision levels of MineCraft, and have PvE enemies on the Absolver level.
And 90% of people wouldn't play it. I don't know if you would or not, but you aren't asking for that, you're asking for literally NONE of that, so you're already accepting skill tradeoffs so that the game's difficulty is lowered. You just happen to also THINK that all Tab Target games made bigger tradeoffs than that.
But they didn't. Many are 'BDO speed or higher' and 'PvE Absolver or higher', and Precision at least at what you imply. You just don't PLAY them.
BDO isn't unreadable, do you do node, siege, large scale fights with 30 people around you attacking you at the same time, or getting attacked from render distance and not relying on a iframe spam class?
There are less people that can read it based on that kind of skill, when have i said lowered the skill cap? You are misreading what im saying while also saying the skill cap is to high so devs won't have action combat in a mmorpg with all the skills that come with it?
This logic is simply saying to make all those games faster speed wise or it has reduced skill cap. There are multiple skills players can be good at in games not simply based on speed. A game that has less incentive on fidgetily like speed but has room for other layers of elements to add skill into the game.
honestly i could contrast with too much speed takes skill away from the game since it becomes about rushing someone than thinking anything else even remotely tactically which is more akin to a mmorpg. Adding action does not make speed suddenly unreadable, unless you make the action that fast for whatever reason.
It would be like in BDO using nova to blitz someone before they can do anything and blowing them up when you get a cc and saying that takes more skill. Skill cap is push and pull, there needs to be a way to react.
I understand that BDO [EDIT] isn't unreadable to you. It is not unreadable to me. Your perceptions make sense. You believing that more speed is less skill is EXACTLY what I'd expect given everything.
But I can't manage to not start a big defensive rant from you if I explain why, because you don't like accepting it.
You're just slow. You play a slow game in a slow style. I play a very fast game in a very fast style. I hope that Ashes is slow enough that you can enjoy it (I don't know what they were doing with that Fighter Demo that is some crazy). They're just different skills.
But I play Melty Blood, if I couldn't track BDO fights I would not even get to do anything, which is what you describe. Nova is like the second slowest class in BDO.
Nova is not a slow class lmfao. Awakening is one of the fastest burst classes in the game. There is no other class that is keeping up with them when their buff is up.
You're just slow. You play a slow game in a slow style. I play a very fast game in a very fast style. I hope that Ashes is slow enough that you can enjoy it (I don't know what they were doing with that Fighter Demo that is some crazy). They're just different skills.
Cause I look at the fighter's showcase and I can't see why you consider it very fast. But I'm also not used to frame readings and analysis so I might be overlooking smth very big.
That's gonna lead into a long explanation so I'll try to keep it short and you can just ask more stuff.
1. Genshin does not have its PvP mode yet, and the differences matter a lot depending on what the defensive mechanics are, as I noted in the above post.
2. You are probably capable of playing Genshin PvP and Absolver whereas most people are not (again, to DarkTides' point, we're talking about reaction and defense)
3. The enemies are stationary moreso, it would become frenetic with actual players moving around at that speed and that much. The Frame Data is about normal to me.
Remember that I'm often addressing Mag specifically (I'm sorry about that) and Soul Calibur is MUCH slower.
Pay attention to the parts where they are NOT hitting each other yet, but trying to manage it. If not familiar, aerial moves must be blocked standing, low attacks must be blocked crouching, ambiguous situations should be avoided by jumping or armored moves. That should cover it.
I believe that Genshin PvP will 'turn into something similar to this'. I really hope you enjoy it!
It is pretty amazing that @Azherae here is trying to say im trying to add more action elements to the game and ragging on tab target?
Actually makes no sense it is the other way around with me saying action can work fine and they are trying to saying no developer will have more action elements in the game since it won't work or suddenly become too hard that makes no sense gameplay wise.
I've said this before u realize AoC will let you go 75% action right, which is in contrast to what you are saying about developers won't do it?
I don't view tab mechanics being hardcore where you can't add a player needing to track and land the hits and be able to react and dodge them consistently.
Yeah, I meant that action combat combined with all the tab complexity would already become hardcore. But I'd personally want it to go even further.
Action combat adds a lot of depth with needing to land your attacks, dodge, react, etc. I don't understand how you can say it doesn't add depth unless i misread something? Needing to face who you are fighting and have some focus on them while being able to handle and dodge other things coming your way adds a lot of skill. Especially when the comparison is where you can hit tab(including enemies off screen), press your skill and it lands on them. That is not difficult for anyone to do, and had no skill element to it. Only example given where it requires some actual element of tracking is your example if they are being retargeted every few seconds. But I'd need to play to be able to fully judge it how much down time it is creating.
I meant it comparatively to what I'd like to play. Yes, counter play in action mmos is definitely more prevalent than in tab ones, purely because you have more ways to utilize it. Tab games might provide you with a few abilities to counter your enemy's moves, while the whole point of action games is to constantly counter your opponent's moves.
But what I want is more verticality in combat. The Absolver gameplay seems close to what I'm talking about. There's high/mid/low strikes and counters to all of those (or at least vertically segmented defenses). It's pretty much a proper 3d fighting game, by the looks of it.
And, imo, compared to the potential depth of that kind of game, plain action games like NW, BDO or LA are so fucking easy they're not even worth mentioning. If they had complex ability interdependencies from tab games they'd definitely be closer to the hardcoreness that I'd like, but they would still just be "2d" games imo.
It's pretty much the same as your comparison of SC to other 2d fighters. You liked SC because it gave you more depth with that 3rd dimension. I want the same for action games, but I believe (and Azherae and others seem to agree) that the game that I want would be barely played, because its complexity would be waaaay too fucking high for any normal person. You seem to agree with that too, considering you don't want those kinds of complexities added to the game.
Old games aside like i said people have made points that games can't do it and developers won't do it yet AoC is allowing players to do 75% action or tab. So I'm curious what you have to say to that element NiKr.
I'd need to see how exactly they're planning on doing that. And I haven't played GW2, which seems to be the closest to AoC in combat design, so I got no clue what Intrepid could even do.
But no matter what they go for, it'll definitely be way less hardcore than what I'd prefer. I'm fine with that though, mainly because I want the game to succeed and not just be smth that only I would play.
It is pretty amazing that @Azherae here is trying to say im trying to add more action elements to the game and ragging on tab target?
Actually makes no sense it is the other way around with me saying action can work fine and they are trying to saying no developer will have more action elements in the game since it won't work or suddenly become too hard that makes no sense gameplay wise.
I've said this before u realize AoC will let you go 75% action right, which is in contrast to what you are saying about developers won't do it?
If you have changed your stance from what you have said in the past, then I apologize.
I don't want to have the discussion about the whole 'don't add more Action because it lowers tactics' thing. As long as we can all agree that it's a SLIDER for skill and which type of skill, then I have no argument. Noaani wishes 'less action so that there can be more thinking skills'.
I will repeat that I don't agree with Noaani on this entirely because I also like the physical skills and IF they make PvE enemies with the correct types of physical skill challenges, I will consider it to be just as fun and tactical as a fully Tab Target encounter.
I am not arguing with you if you are not saying that Tab requires less skill OR if you are saying 'Skill in Tab could be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'. I also believe that some 'skill in Tab can be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'.
I believe that Genshin PvP will 'turn into something similar to this'. I really hope you enjoy it!
I wish they added pvp, but they never will. It would not only require a full second layer of character balancing and elemental reactions rework, but would also need a full restructuring of the design direction.
And as for Melty, maybe it's just my absence of knowledge talking, but it always felt to me that fighting games skill mainly came down to muscle memory coupled with knowledge of your opponent (both in-game char and the player themselves). I feel like at higher lvls of play it's all about patterns of responses and proper execution of them. I definitely agree that Melty looks quite fast, but w/o any practical knowledge of how high end fighting games feel, I can't really differentiate its speed from other games.
My surface lvl perception of fast-paced visuals might be completely wrong just because I'm too used to watching youtube at x2.5 speed so my brain feels more comfortable when perceiving smth fast. But my body would most likely not catch up to brain's processing, so I wouldn't even be able to get to a high enough proficiency lvl to properly comprehend what the gameplay speed of fighting games truly is.
Comments
The problem with what you are saying here is that you are looking for evidence of a statement (which in itself is fair enough), but the facts of the statement preclude that evidence existing outside of first hand experience.
A number of EQ2 Avatar encounters would - at various times - fit the desired description.
However, there is no information on those encounters at those times at all, and in the case of those encounters, they dont even exist in that game any more.
The thing is though, you've already provided an example of a game that increases things in one direction, but takes away from it in another. Soul Caliber allows movement in 8 directions, but is a slower game than fighting games that only have 2D movement.
The fact that you claim to not understand the point I made about games taking from one area if they are adding to another area is just baffling even without your Soul Caliber experience. With that experience in mind though, you need to be willfully not understanding - as in you will not understand simply because you do not want to understand.
This statement makes no sense on a game being slower. Moving in 8 directions dose not make a game slower...How do you even logically get to this point that a game can't be designed faster as if coding doesn't allow it?
I'm baffled by the fact you cant understand what someone is saying, simply because it goes against what you think. So you assume it isn't possible when design wise it is.
What you are doing is akin to saying people can't do things, and people can't handle more complex task. Which goes against you complaining about the difficulty of mmorpgs and worried it will be too easy.
People are clearly capable of a lot more than you realize since you use the skewed view point to try to use that as a means to attempt to reduce action combat elements by not acknowledging under your bias pretense that tab takes more skill when it does not.
Which makes 0 sense because you are after saying it is too difficulty for people to have both at the same time....Also which makes 0 sense and not backed by any actual facts except for bias.
Funny, because I immediately thought of you when I read that sentence. Which is why I've given up on engaging in any sort of arguments with you.
Some people definitely wouldn't be capable, but I'd argue it's not about "being able to" do things. It's rather about not wanting or not enjoying doing those things.
And again, usually tab-target games have way more depth and strategy included, compared to action-combat games, which rely more on mechanical skill. I'm not saying action-combat games require no strategy, nor that they have 0 depth, it's different for each game.
It would definitely lean more towards "not being able to" if we had both the depth, strategy, etc. of a tab-target game, and all the mechanical stuff from action-combat game.
From what I understand, the example given to you demonstrated it perfectly. Once you add more depth, more things to do, more strategy, etc. you give up other things in order to make it work.
I haven't played any of those games, but that's what I understood the argument to be about, just by reading the last page of this thread. It seems like you failed to understand it.
Anyways, I don't want to engage in this argument, as I have no experience in those games, nor do I wish to argue with you ever again.
You aren't giving up anything is the point to keep it simple, all concepts remain in the game.
You can create a game, needing a totally perfect accuracy with less than 1 millimeter of window, and less than 1 millisecond timing. and this with a sniper allowing you to hit from 100 meters distance
But because you want people play and enjoy your game, you will lower those requirement, making time to react slightly bigger like 100 milli second and the area to hit being at list 10 millimeter. and the distance being now only 10m
And we can admit that it would be still not so easy to hit but it becomes possible...
or... return to 100 meter but the time to shoot is now 1 second. get it to one minute but fall back to 1 millimeter for the size area you want to hit.
What i tried to show is simply that difficulty is based on different values (mechanics being mostly... values)
And we, human, have our own limits, 3D fighting games totally feels (at least for me) slower than 2D one, but, because they add a depth in decision making with this third axis to use allowing far more way to avoid damages. you added a value, and to continue to have a decent game you did a slightly lower of another value. Both game can totally be as difficulty to fully master, and have both really interesting competition for competitors.
You can't just do a stupid addition of all difficulty factor, and push them always higher. because you could reach a point where your game is so hard that nearly no one is interested.
You can't put ALL element from tab targetting to action,
i love both tab and action, and i would love to see action with more "buffs/debuffs" mechanics than currently, and also i prefer tab games which have more "action" part than the "2 big" (ffxiv/wow). But all have its limit, And faster the decision making has to be, the lesser the amount of data your decision are based on is.
The thing is you can and that doesn't make a game too hard, as I've said before it opens up more mechanics for more diverse elements of gameplay and difficulty based on the content. Having more elements in a game doesn't make it too hard, and developers can scale that difficulty based on the content however they like.
You wanted him to use what game as an action combat example?
Know what's really wrong with action combat games? Everyone says skill, but humans are not superheroes. Humans do not possess lightning speed, or super strength. This is one reason why action combat games are not believable. They are limited by human input speed. How can you roleplay a superior creature when your actions in game look pathetic. You need computer assistance, hence RNG.
If you're a rogue in WoW and pop evasion, do you really think you would be able to dodge every single attack from multiple opponents if you had to manually do it? No. We have limitations to our reactions, and actions and can never become better than what limits us without help.
This would be like genetically engineering a human or having cybernetic implants to improve your daily activities. If you had a processing power implant, and a cybernetic arm, you could no doubt react and physically respond far faster than our own brain and human hands can. Then you'd get suspended for using 3rd party software.....
So....you have action combat and supplement what we lack IRL with computer aid, such as RNG, or an attack that always will land, because if that character wasnt controlled by you, they would land the hit, while most would miss. Can't really roleplay a superior being when your game makes it such that you're limited by what you're trying to escape.
This is why action combat games have an ok grasp on the offensive aspect of combat, but defensive combat is traaaash.
The reason 3D games don't have fast normal attacks is because the player's character needs to be able to get out of the way.
You can't make them fast enough movement to get out of the way of a 6f attack without making the entire game practically unplayable (imagine the Fighter Dash from the melee showcase but that's how the character moves all the time... or don't imagine it and just watch BDO).
So for those you make the character just block instead of moving. Then everyone uses that attack type more often to force the opponent to block instead of moving (because the attacker did a quick thing, and wants the other player to never be able to do their own powerful slow thing). And then you have a '2D game', even if the characters have 'counters' or 'sidestep attacks', it's not really different feeling/tactics wise than a 2D game anymore.
Mag's stance is in my opinion a contradiction because Mag says 'don't make the game as fast as BDO, let it be slower' and also 'aim doesn't have to be perfect, just soft lock', and 'abilities from mobs can curve'. Basically saying 'here are the ways I think the skill requirement should be reduced'. And then disqualifies 'Tab Target' (a term referring to a targeting system, not an ability/execution function, though apparently not in Mag's experience) as a similar solution.
All while 'building up a whole system to compensate for and mimic how good Tab Target games work anyway'.
There's no need to even have the discussion. If it were up to Mag the game would require LESS skill, even physical skill, than what anyone else in this thread so far would build, I think.
Pretty false statement, action gameplay doesn't need exact precise shots. BDO speed is unreadable for people, pure speed doesn't mean as meaningful gameplay.
Your statement sounds full of if a game isn't doing the fullest extremes mag wants the game to have less skill involved. Action games aren't about exact aim and making a fps game lol. You will say anything to try to redirect things and try to make something more complex to try and find some reasoning to say someone else is wrong...
It isn't up to me its up to intrepid studios by the way, Last i checked they are doing 75% action or tab based on your choices. So by default if you are saying games can't do this, a game is literally doing this...
I'd personally do that by the way of vertical body segmentation and requirements to hit different parts of the body to have different effects on your attacks. This would work for both melee and ranged attacks. I'd then add buff/debuff dependencies between all those segmented attacks and would then test the game to see how far I could push the speed of gameplay.
Then, as you say, we just take a good complex tab game and apply its mechanics and encounters to my suggested system, while adding all the stuff I listed. And depending on how good the designers are you'd have yourself a truly hardcore action mmo, by my standards. I imagine it'd be a pain to play, but quite rewarding if you can master it.
Oh come on, I explicitly tried so hard not to make you defensive on this.
I'm saying your stuff SEEMS like a contradiction to ME because you're reducing the skill cap. You are explicitly reducing it. BDO speed isn't unreadable for me at all.
That's why I think DarkTides' point is so correct. There's no point in making a game with defensive mechanics (or offense ones, ofc) that only superhumans CAN USE. I now understand DarkTides' perception of Action Combat games. They are not realistic because they need to be what you are saying. Slow, imprecise, and the PvE similar.
Except that we already have multiple games that don't do those things.
BDO has the speed. MineCraft requires the precision. Absolver PvE is precise.
The 'most skilled game' would be slightly higher than BDO speed (it's real speed, not the flashy distraction speed), require the precision levels of MineCraft, and have PvE enemies on the Absolver level.
And 90% of people wouldn't play it. I don't know if you would or not, but you aren't asking for that, you're asking for literally NONE of that, so you're already accepting skill tradeoffs so that the game's difficulty is lowered. You just happen to also THINK that all Tab Target games made bigger tradeoffs than that.
But they didn't. Many are 'BDO speed or higher' and 'PvE Absolver or higher', and Precision at least at what you imply. You just don't PLAY them.
Right, because you're crazy lol.
I definitely think you would want to play a game at that tier of 1v1 and input requirements, but you are REALLY not common in that regard.
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We need to remember this is action combat with a mmorpg, meaning it is taking strong elements of action and making it work in a mmorpg sense. A full action game is still a action game, and a mmorpg with action combat shouldn't really be expected to be working the same.
It should be looked at as a bar with how much of action elements can you have in it without lowering certain elements ina mmorpg. One example being stat sheets and such, in a action game when you hit you pretty much always hit. When you are thinking mmorpgs there are normally more stat sheets when you can dodge or block attacks even if you are hitting. If you do it where it always hits you are removing that quality and dialing it more towards action. Where if you have it so you can dodge still you are dialing it more towards mmorpgs.
My question would be why would you need to make a mmorpg with hardcore action elements? You can make a mmorpg without it being hardcore and dialing it towards action and making the gameplay more complex and fun with the elements that brings while keeping the standard mmorpg qualities.
Again AoC is literarily doing this as unless changed you can go 75% action based...so what I'm saying will exist in the game so saying this can't be done or developers won't do it already doesn't make sense as a few are saying.
Yeah, dont tell Mag, but the combat system he says he wants is basically Archeage.
Right, you're saying the same thing as everyone else. In fact, nearly everyone else is more hardcore in their desires than you.
Noaani wants more hardcore strategy so the suggestion might be 'Add no more Action than is necessary/promised'.
NiKr (let's assume) wants more hardcore combat, so the suggestion might be 'Add full movement and real counters' (disqualifies a bunch of stats and converts them to physical skill requirements'.
DarkTides (let's assume) would want more hardcore realism (if Action was being added) so the suggestion might be 'add more precision and movement options' (I think this poster just moreso considers this unnecessary/useless and might prefer just stats).
Your stances is always "just lower all of them, as long as the gameplay is good", and then on top of that "Tab Target takes much less skill".
Your stance is very CLEAR. It just has a weird BASIS.
Fortunately I think that according to my data (almost counterintuitively but not really) most people who want Action Combat only want the level you are talking about, most people who want 'fluid PvP' only want the level BDO offers but even slower. Intrepid is going right for you and the more casual players, and I know that you are definitely one of their 'champions'.
Literally all I keep trying to get you to do is stop ragging on Tab Target unnecessarily. You don't want a hard game ANYWAY, let it go.
And considering my experience in L2, I was already playing an "action" mmo with tab leaning. And I already explained why I think this. So if I was trying to play a true action mmo, I'd want smth that I suggested. The stats would still matter, because you can always design for them to matter. And iirc BDO has rng evasion mechanics even though it's THE action game of the genre.
And as Noaani said, AA appears to be quite similar to what you want, and considering that it was L2's "continuation", I can definitely see how it could be.
BDO isn't unreadable, do you do node, siege, large scale fights with 30 people around you attacking you at the same time, or getting attacked from render distance and not relying on a iframe spam class?
There are less people that can read it based on that kind of skill, when have i said lowered the skill cap? You are misreading what im saying while also saying the skill cap is to high so devs won't have action combat in a mmorpg with all the skills that come with it?
This logic is simply saying to make all those games faster speed wise or it has reduced skill cap. There are multiple skills players can be good at in games not simply based on speed. A game that has less incentive on fidgetily like speed but has room for other layers of elements to add skill into the game.
honestly i could contrast with too much speed takes skill away from the game since it becomes about rushing someone than thinking anything else even remotely tactically which is more akin to a mmorpg. Adding action does not make speed suddenly unreadable, unless you make the action that fast for whatever reason.
It would be like in BDO using nova to blitz someone before they can do anything and blowing them up when you get a cc and saying that takes more skill. Skill cap is push and pull, there needs to be a way to react.
I understand that BDO [EDIT] isn't unreadable to you. It is not unreadable to me. Your perceptions make sense. You believing that more speed is less skill is EXACTLY what I'd expect given everything.
But I can't manage to not start a big defensive rant from you if I explain why, because you don't like accepting it.
You're just slow. You play a slow game in a slow style. I play a very fast game in a very fast style. I hope that Ashes is slow enough that you can enjoy it (I don't know what they were doing with that Fighter Demo that is some crazy). They're just different skills.
But I play Melty Blood, if I couldn't track BDO fights I would not even get to do anything, which is what you describe. Nova is like the second slowest class in BDO.
Cause I look at the fighter's showcase and I can't see why you consider it very fast. But I'm also not used to frame readings and analysis so I might be overlooking smth very big.
Please don't make things too much faster (or at least not constant). I hope that the Fighter showcase was meant to verify the main high speed, but I don't like the stratification of player types that this would lead to in an owPvP game.
I'm sure there will be methods of being successful with slower, more defensive play, particularly if the standard Tab targeting and 'spin-to-win' Fighter options exist, for those who need them, but this path is darkness, it leads to Super Armor... and grabs...
Sure I WANT to be a healing blitz tornado of blades, but I also want normal people to be able to just 'hold block until I make a mistake' like they usually do. At least if I have to use all that speed to get behind them it might be more obvious.
I don't view tab mechanics being hardcore where you can't add a player needing to track and land the hits and be able to react and dodge them consistently.
Action combat adds a lot of depth with needing to land your attacks, dodge, react, etc. I don't understand how you can say it doesn't add depth unless i misread something? Needing to face who you are fighting and have some focus on them while being able to handle and dodge other things coming your way adds a lot of skill. Especially when the comparison is where you can hit tab(including enemies off screen), press your skill and it lands on them. That is not difficult for anyone to do, and had no skill element to it. Only example given where it requires some actual element of tracking is your example if they are being retargeted every few seconds. But I'd need to play to be able to fully judge it how much down time it is creating.
Old games aside like i said people have made points that games can't do it and developers won't do it yet AoC is allowing players to do 75% action or tab. So I'm curious what you have to say to that element @NiKr.
But tab-target takes no skill, action-combat is superior and it takes skill. You want the game to be easy and you don't want the skill to matter. You only care that people can't use skill against you... /s
Nova is not a slow class lmfao. Awakening is one of the fastest burst classes in the game. There is no other class that is keeping up with them when their buff is up.
That's gonna lead into a long explanation so I'll try to keep it short and you can just ask more stuff.
1. Genshin does not have its PvP mode yet, and the differences matter a lot depending on what the defensive mechanics are, as I noted in the above post.
2. You are probably capable of playing Genshin PvP and Absolver whereas most people are not (again, to DarkTides' point, we're talking about reaction and defense)
3. The enemies are stationary moreso, it would become frenetic with actual players moving around at that speed and that much. The Frame Data is about normal to me.
Remember that I'm often addressing Mag specifically (I'm sorry about that) and Soul Calibur is MUCH slower.
Genshin is 'close to limit' (about 0.8x).
Here is what most people consider 'limit'.
Pay attention to the parts where they are NOT hitting each other yet, but trying to manage it. If not familiar, aerial moves must be blocked standing, low attacks must be blocked crouching, ambiguous situations should be avoided by jumping or armored moves. That should cover it.
I believe that Genshin PvP will 'turn into something similar to this'. I really hope you enjoy it!
Actually makes no sense it is the other way around with me saying action can work fine and they are trying to saying no developer will have more action elements in the game since it won't work or suddenly become too hard that makes no sense gameplay wise.
I've said this before u realize AoC will let you go 75% action right, which is in contrast to what you are saying about developers won't do it?
But what I want is more verticality in combat. The Absolver gameplay seems close to what I'm talking about. There's high/mid/low strikes and counters to all of those (or at least vertically segmented defenses). It's pretty much a proper 3d fighting game, by the looks of it.
And, imo, compared to the potential depth of that kind of game, plain action games like NW, BDO or LA are so fucking easy they're not even worth mentioning. If they had complex ability interdependencies from tab games they'd definitely be closer to the hardcoreness that I'd like, but they would still just be "2d" games imo.
It's pretty much the same as your comparison of SC to other 2d fighters. You liked SC because it gave you more depth with that 3rd dimension. I want the same for action games, but I believe (and Azherae and others seem to agree) that the game that I want would be barely played, because its complexity would be waaaay too fucking high for any normal person. You seem to agree with that too, considering you don't want those kinds of complexities added to the game. I'd need to see how exactly they're planning on doing that. And I haven't played GW2, which seems to be the closest to AoC in combat design, so I got no clue what Intrepid could even do.
But no matter what they go for, it'll definitely be way less hardcore than what I'd prefer. I'm fine with that though, mainly because I want the game to succeed and not just be smth that only I would play.
If you have changed your stance from what you have said in the past, then I apologize.
I don't want to have the discussion about the whole 'don't add more Action because it lowers tactics' thing. As long as we can all agree that it's a SLIDER for skill and which type of skill, then I have no argument. Noaani wishes 'less action so that there can be more thinking skills'.
I will repeat that I don't agree with Noaani on this entirely because I also like the physical skills and IF they make PvE enemies with the correct types of physical skill challenges, I will consider it to be just as fun and tactical as a fully Tab Target encounter.
I am not arguing with you if you are not saying that Tab requires less skill OR if you are saying 'Skill in Tab could be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'. I also believe that some 'skill in Tab can be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'.
It's called ArcheAge.
And as for Melty, maybe it's just my absence of knowledge talking, but it always felt to me that fighting games skill mainly came down to muscle memory coupled with knowledge of your opponent (both in-game char and the player themselves). I feel like at higher lvls of play it's all about patterns of responses and proper execution of them. I definitely agree that Melty looks quite fast, but w/o any practical knowledge of how high end fighting games feel, I can't really differentiate its speed from other games.
My surface lvl perception of fast-paced visuals might be completely wrong just because I'm too used to watching youtube at x2.5 speed so my brain feels more comfortable when perceiving smth fast. But my body would most likely not catch up to brain's processing, so I wouldn't even be able to get to a high enough proficiency lvl to properly comprehend what the gameplay speed of fighting games truly is.