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What might 'actually' be AoC's biggest problem

LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
It's not the open-world pvp - it's not the group-focused design or the lack of fast travel/convenience as some like to say.

I believe Ashes of Creation's biggest problem is going to be the loud voices that will increasingly try to change this game to cater to a different targeted audience. The PvE carebears, the solo-players, the PvP-arena-only players, those, that make a big portion of the MMORPG playerbase, are the real risk to the project. Every time I see @StevenSharif saying "Ashes won't be for everyone, and that's ok" this refills my confidence fuel tank in this project.

But I hope Steven and the team are ready for this, because it might only get worse as the game gets more traction, people will continue to give feedback and make content asking for changes that would end up hurting AoC, because a large portion of the mmorpg player base are under the assumption that if an MMO doesn't appeal to as many people as possible - the game will fail.

This is something we see everywhere, and it's also something Asmongold, a streamer that Steven really likes, says all the time, using New World (a bad example) as an example that people nowadays don't want a social experience like they use to back in the days, that changing the design adding teleports, removing open world PVP and making a casual, solo-friendly game is the way to go. They keep saying the MMORPG genre is "dying" but they want Ashes to be just like the other games in the genre.

I'd like to hereby voice my, and my community's support for Steven's vision, that ever since it was announced remained true to the PvX risk vs reward philosophy - I hope we, players that have no MMORPG to call home for the last decade, that came from Lineage, Archeage, SWG, Everquest, Eve, CoH, Ultima, and so many others - can get to experience AoC as it was promised - no matter how long it takes to release. If this game delivers, and it's good, we will be here, and we will buy every cosmetic in the cash shop or new t-shirt you release to make sure this game is successful.
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Comments

  • Yep. The other edge to the transparent dev sword is the overwhelming amount of feedback (or data) received. This is where experience and maturity as a leader is critical - so you can be open to good ideas and still stay true to your vision and deliver accordingly.

    A2 is going to be a really interesting time to be part of the community, especially having followed the project for so long. I agree with you - as those voices are only going to get louder and multiply.

    Good sentiment, @Liniker.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • Ya i agree and its a refreshing thing to here the game won't be for everyone..

    But being a business and a game (child) that you want to have succeed on a very large scale there is some balance needed to making the game fun for casual players that won't make as much progress every week (not talking about casuals that play 3 hours a week). And making sure their time they have spent playing is mostly positive and fun based on the elements of the game.

    Something new world has issues with its lack of content as the gameplay loop was not the best.

    @Liniker Thinking back to older mmorpgs curious what kinds of content you think made good gameplay loop that made the experience enjoyable from start to end? Gameplay that made people excited to play every day and enjoy it that did not revolve around end game content?

    One thing for me is story since it helps draw me into the world and though Swtor was more single playerish even more so with the story I can't deny that made me want to push through it to see what happens. And to feel like my character was having a impact on the story. I'm sure AoC won't have cinematics like that it be too much to do, but i think something would help.

    Playing new worlds expansion I've enjoy the very few cinematics they made for the new area and wish they had more. Actually made me care about the tory and world and understand what was going on more. I feel they need something in AoC besides only text to learn about the story as feeling connected to it helps drive you to want to play and enjoy the game.

    This is something for WoW i felt was really powerful when it first released since people already had a connection to the world and really wanted to explore it and immersive themselves inside it. Honestly something the Riot mmorpg is going to have a huge advantage with when it releases.
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited October 2022
    That's so weird, I just posted about Asmon in another thread with similar sentiments. But yes, the cold hard truth is that in a pure democracy, we lose every time. Hordes of WoW players and the like can just invade any and every game and have it changed to what they want, if the dev is willing.

    And there's absolutely no way to know for sure what any dev is willing to do, even someone I mostly trust like Steven. Definitely makes me question the wisdom of how much money I've pumped into this game already, and whether I should keep doing so. It's scary, to put it bluntly.

    Edit: I'm assuming this post is coming about from you Liniker because you're concerned about the same thing I am. A few days ago, Steven went to a 100k sub andy youtuber's ill informed, dumb, video and announced two substantial, major even, changes.

    Instead of announcing it to his backers who have pumped hundreds and thousands dollars, he announced it to some youtuber no one's ever even heard of. That's kinda scary.
  • Okeydoke wrote: »
    That's so weird, I just posted about Asmon in another thread with similar sentiments. But yes, the cold hard truth is that in a pure democracy, we lose every time. Hordes of WoW players and the like can just invade any and every game and have it changed to what they want, if the dev is willing.

    And there's absolutely no way to know for sure what any dev is willing to do, even someone I mostly trust like Steven. Definitely makes me question the wisdom of how much money I've pumped into this game already, and whether I should keep doing so. It's scary, to put it bluntly.

    Edit: I'm assuming this post is coming about from you Liniker because you're concerned about the same thing I am. A few days ago, Steven went to a 100k sub andy youtuber's ill informed, dumb, video and announced two substantial, major even, changes.

    Instead of announcing it to his backers who have pumped hundreds and thousands dollars, he announced it to some youtuber no one's ever even heard of. That's kinda scary.

    That isn't really scary, unless there is some hidden forum I'm unaware about the backers can ask anything about the design of the game and get a answer.

    Backers are a very tiny subset, it is all the other people that are potential customers where you need to be careful of the flow of information. Youtubers reach pretty for audience member wise to millions of people which is far more than original backers by many many times.

    Since AoC is a hot topic one youtuber gets viewed by another and it passes along everyone and eventually reaches Asmongold so the many of eyes on the game is giant. You don't want misinformation getting out there since it is open development so it takes a bit more care on how things are approached when you are getting a insane about of different eyes and ears on your game.

    So that is just the truth, like 10k have backed the game, but millions of people are viewing it and speaking what they think with a higher chance for misinformation or worries/red flags to be spread. The number alone should be clear why it is a top priority from a marketing stand point to reduce things that could have a potential negative impact.
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Youtubers reach pretty for audience member wise to millions of people which is far more than original backers by many many times.

    Point taken, Intrepid is a business and Steven is a businessman and needs to do businessman things. I get all of that. But Steven took to a youtuber's video, the video being one that used a lot of dumb takes to push for a more carebear vision of the game, and he announced two changes that push it in that carebear direction.

    That's fine, I think a lot of our quotes on the wiki come from Steven quotes in interviews with content creators, comments sections, other things etc. But where does it end I guess is my point, and Liniker's concern. These critical videos are going to keep happening, and they're going to come from even bigger content creators, we've seen absolutely nothing yet.
  • Okeydoke wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Youtubers reach pretty for audience member wise to millions of people which is far more than original backers by many many times.

    Point taken, Intrepid is a business and Steven is a businessman and needs to do businessman things. I get all of that. But Steven took to a youtuber's video, the video being one that used a lot of dumb takes to push for a more carebear vision of the game, and he announced two changes that push it in that carebear direction.

    That's fine, I think a lot of our quotes on the wiki come from Steven quotes in interviews with content creators, comments sections, other things etc. But where does it end I guess is my point, and Liniker's concern. These critical videos are going to keep happening, and they're going to come from even bigger content creators, we've seen absolutely nothing yet.

    He simply raised some red flags based on his experience with L2, Steven having played L2 knows of some of the issues and design wise they are already planning on implementing it based on the fact they are working on that kind of content now. So it is a solution they already have and are working on, and not doing carebear pve servers and reworking the game.

    The point he made about of getting around corruption is a very valid point, it existed in BDO and it does not make things anymore fun as you can use it to harass peoples content. So having a solution for that is great, it means if they plan to kill someone in means like that they are going to go corrupted if it isn't around a guild or node wars. Rather then showing up with 5 people and spamming cc's on their heals and trying to have mobs wipe them so they can pick up their loot and avoid corruption risk.

    It is one thing to look at someone giving a carebear idea (pve servers as one example) but the concern should be thought of and if a solution is needed having one is a good thing. You can't be all arms up they are trying to change the game considering what they are saying and if it is actually a issue in terms of the content the game is providing is something that needs to be brought up

    Another issue in relation to new world (since it is a great game to point out what is not good to do) is they also wanted people walking everywhere so it felt like older mmorpgs. But their content look on movement was not fun there was no ways to increase your speed or do anything. Of course it has a identity issue on how the game was originally designed which most likely was part of the problem, and their solution was adding fast travel everywhere. This is where Aoc being built for this will be different on content to explore, dynamic content and also mainly mounts while being able to breed better faster and different kinds of amounts to help you explore and make travel fun.

    Of course as i was saying just because a concern is raised if it is one that does not match the core concept of the game like having all dungeons be instanced to stop pvp for example. That would be one where it doesn't match and of different methods should be taken to fix whatever issue is being raised, if it is actually a issue.
  • I'm gonna try to be as fucking loud as I can when giving feedback during alpha2 cause I'm sure there's gonna be thousands of pvers on Asmon's (and others') stream whining about the mechanics.
  • I just hope the game isn't gonna be like Lost Ark and stagnate at 200,000ish players. I enjoyed that game but it has such a dead community. P2W players are not the most social lol.

    I'd like my massively multiplayer online game to actually be massive.
  • My guild is all about social connection. We had issues because some people just want loot, and you know what? There's still people in the guild left that want to play and have fun with others, not chase loot. They want interaction, laugh and banter.
    Steven needs to hold his ground!
  • worddog wrote: »
    I just hope the game isn't gonna be like Lost Ark and stagnate at 200,000ish players. I enjoyed that game but it has such a dead community. P2W players are not the most social lol.

    I'd like my massively multiplayer online game to actually be massive.

    You only need 50k players in one server to have around 10k concurrent. You don't need 100000000 they won't play on the same server as you.
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Rather then showing up with 5 people and spamming cc's on their heals and trying to have mobs wipe them so they can pick up their loot and avoid corruption risk.

    You can be in favor of greens not being able to be CC'd, which would avoid the spam CC scenario, and to make the opening of fights against non combatants more fair, until they flag up to fight back. I am in favor of that. You can also be against the idea that reds can't use ANY CC, even damaging CCs, against greens who are actively fighting them. The two are not mutually exclusive. There are solutions that address both.

    Not trying to turn this into another CC change thread. But you're talking to a guy, me, who's in favor of meaningful but not insane gear gaps, and a reasonably high-ish but not overwhelmingly high skill gap/ceiling in the combat system. I'm all about fairness and keeping the game accessible and competitive for large groups of people.

    When I first read the CC change, the first thing I thought was great that fixes the CC spam scenario nonsense. Then I realized what else it meant. It's not a small deal, not a huge one either though, just kinda dumb if that's how it will apply to greens who attack reds. If that's the way it's gonna be then that's how it'll be though.

    Back to what this thread is about, of course you want people making videos about your game, raising issues, of course Steven will interact with some of these videos and creators. And anything could happen. Game could stay the same, could change a little, or could change wildly based on how much he listens to certain people. He's going to be under immense, and I mean ungodly immense pressure to neutralize or remove OW pvp from the game. Maybe scary is a strong word. It's concerning.

    Little secret for you. Many of the people who complain about Ashes' design are more afraid that it will be successful than afraid it will fail.
  • Now this is certainly one of the biggest looming problems that threatens this game the most as time goes by, the more traction it gains the more it attracts those who wants to change it to fit their previous experiences or carebear desires.

    Fortunately Steven has stood tall and firm in his ideals and beliefs till this day, and i pray he stays that way.
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  • Okeydoke wrote: »
    Little secret for you. Many of the people who complain about Ashes' design are more afraid that it will be successful than afraid it will fail.
    Good point.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • … the more traction it gains the more it attracts those who wants to change it to fit their previous experiences or carebear desires.

    Not just the carebears … the griefers too.

    Good thread.
  • There are two other bigger problems though, which I will keep for myself.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • Not just the carebears … the griefers too.
    And they'll be told that the game is not for them either B)
  • Liniker wrote: »
    It's not the open-world pvp - it's not the group-focused design or the lack of fast travel/convenience as some like to say.

    I believe Ashes of Creation's biggest problem is going to be the loud voices that will increasingly try to change this game to cater to a different targeted audience. The PvE carebears, the solo-players, the PvP-arena-only players, those, that make a big portion of the MMORPG playerbase, are the real risk to the project. Every time I see @StevenSharif saying "Ashes won't be for everyone, and that's ok" this refills my confidence fuel tank in this project.

    But I hope Steven and the team are ready for this, because it might only get worse as the game gets more traction, people will continue to give feedback and make content asking for changes that would end up hurting AoC, because a large portion of the mmorpg player base are under the assumption that if an MMO doesn't appeal to as many people as possible - the game will fail.

    This is something we see everywhere, and it's also something Asmongold, a streamer that Steven really likes, says all the time, using New World (a bad example) as an example that people nowadays don't want a social experience like they use to back in the days, that changing the design adding teleports, removing open world PVP and making a casual, solo-friendly game is the way to go. They keep saying the MMORPG genre is "dying" but they want Ashes to be just like the other games in the genre.

    I'd like to hereby voice my, and my community's support for Steven's vision, that ever since it was announced remained true to the PvX risk vs reward philosophy - I hope we, players that have no MMORPG to call home for the last decade, that came from Lineage, Archeage, SWG, Everquest, Eve, CoH, Ultima, and so many others - can get to experience AoC as it was promised - no matter how long it takes to release. If this game delivers, and it's good, we will be here, and we will buy every cosmetic in the cash shop or new t-shirt you release to make sure this game is successful.

    "The PvE carebears, the solo-players, the PvP-arena-only players, those, that make a big portion of the MMORPG playerbase, are the real risk to the project" - in other words the 90% of the playerbase are wrong, and only true, hardcore, PVP players now how it needs to be done. Good luck with that buddy.

    The only real danger to AoC are PVP Andy's who think they are majority of the people and everybody who disagree with them just not "cool" or "hardcore" enough to play a "real" MMO. The only thing that always on open world PVP does, it allows one group of players, have control over the other players gameplay. And people who want to control other people are very often not the most compassionate and caring individuals in the world. Typically they are a scum of the earth.

    But don't get me wrong, open world PVP isn't necessarily a bad thing, if it's implemented right, and game has effective mechanism's to keep griefing under control it can be quite fun.

    Unfortunately, i have no reasons to assume that developers of AoC are the god level game designer's, who are not going to do the same mistakes that ten out of ten developers did before.

    "Lineage, Archeage, SWG, Everquest, Eve, CoH" - so you want AoC to be similar to the bunch of death or old AF games? Well if you want sub 100k online six months after release you definitely have a right Idea.



  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    @Liniker Thinking back to older mmorpgs curious what kinds of content you think made good gameplay loop that made the experience enjoyable from start to end? Gameplay that made people excited to play every day and enjoy it that did not revolve around end game content?

    I love lore, PvP, raiding, all that good stuff, but the thing that always kept me playing MMOs - is player-driven and guild content, games like SWG, DAoC, Mortal, or even sandboxy survival games like Ark, they give the community the tools to make player driven content

    and when a game doesn't have this, like the theme box mmorpgs we have on the market, the only thing left to hold the MMO is the gameplay and the curated content that it's great for a while, but you end up getting bored and just go play something else while you wait for the next expansion

    I think this is what will make Ashes so good, it has both, it has the meat and potatoes, it's not just a lazy sandbox, but it has enough curated content, the node system, world bosses, the legendary items, mounts, the castles and all that - but also give us the tools to have the player driven content, and even the drama that will result in sieges and wars and all that, for me, that is it.

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  • … the more traction it gains the more it attracts those who wants to change it to fit their previous experiences or carebear desires.

    Not just the carebears … the griefers too.

    Good thread.

    ikr, we also see some unreasonable posts wanting Corrupted state to be a playstyle not even being neutral but actually being a net positive with extra rewards and extra incentives.

    But its undeniable that the number of Carebears posts far outclasses the number GigaGriefers posts.
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  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    MixaZavr wrote: »
    Unfortunately, i have no reasons to assume that developers of AoC are the god level game designer's, who are not going to do the same mistakes that ten out of ten developers did before.

    "Lineage, Archeage, SWG, Everquest, Eve, CoH" - so you want AoC to be similar to the bunch of death or old AF games? Well if you want sub 100k online six months after release you definitely have a right Idea.

    You are part of the problem, that I described on my thread ;) hopefully, you will move on to the Riot MMO or some other game that makes you happy - so we can all be happy.
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  • MixaZavrMixaZavr Member
    edited October 2022
    Liniker wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    @Liniker Thinking back to older mmorpgs curious what kinds of content you think made good gameplay loop that made the experience enjoyable from start to end? Gameplay that made people excited to play every day and enjoy it that did not revolve around end game content?

    I love lore, PvP, raiding, all that good stuff, but the thing that always kept me playing MMOs - is player-driven and guild content, games like SWG, DAoC, Mortal, or even sandboxy survival games like Ark, they give the community the tools to make player driven content

    and when a game doesn't have this, like the theme box mmorpgs we have on the market, the only thing left to hold the MMO is the gameplay and the curated content that it's great for a while, but you end up getting bored and just go play something else while you wait for the next expansion

    I think this is what will make Ashes so good, it has both, it has the meat and potatoes, it's not just a lazy sandbox, but it has enough curated content, the node system, world bosses, the legendary items, mounts, the castles and all that - but also give us the tools to have the player driven content, and even the drama that will result in sieges and wars and all that, for me, that is it.

    Anyone who's places Mortal Online among his favourite MMOs doesn't worth listening to.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    MixaZavr wrote: »
    Everyone who's place Mortal Online among his favourite MMOs doesn't worth listening to.

    Ok buddy
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  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member
    edited October 2022
    MixaZavr wrote: »
    Everyone who's place Mortal Online among his favourite MMOs doesn't worth listening to.

    Joined the forums four (4) days ago and already spiraling down into insults ... well done.
  • MixaZavrMixaZavr Member
    edited October 2022
    Liniker wrote: »
    MixaZavr wrote: »
    Unfortunately, i have no reasons to assume that developers of AoC are the god level game designer's, who are not going to do the same mistakes that ten out of ten developers did before.

    "Lineage, Archeage, SWG, Everquest, Eve, CoH" - so you want AoC to be similar to the bunch of death or old AF games? Well if you want sub 100k online six months after release you definitely have a right Idea.

    You are part of the problem, that I described on my thread ;) hopefully, you will move on to the Riot MMO or some other game that makes you happy - so we can all be happy.

    Of course I am. How i can be right? All you only want, is to be in the good guild and play with your friends! And if your guild wants to run a dungeon, it has to be able to force other players out of it - it's only fair! In the end of it, your guild get exactly what it's deserved. Who cares about other players, it is their fault for not playing the game 6-8 hours a day, or not finding a group to play with - social interaction and dedication is the key to success.

    The only problem with this, is almost everyone who your guild block out of content is going to quit the game. And when they quit, game dosent get enough funding trough subscription to deliver big and cool expansions, and if game dosent regularly received new content even more people start to quit.

    Eventually, game becomes unsustainable on subscription only, and developers add some "time saving" feature in the cash shop, some people dosent might this, but some people do and they quit the game.

    As more and more people quit the game, developers, in desperate attempt to save it, turn game to FreeToPlay model, and this temporary works - with flux of new players game becomes alive again.

    New guild's, alliances, and simply more player's start's to appear everywhere. But without subscription and with few "time saving" feature's developers simply don't receive enough money to sustain large server infrastructure for new coming players. So they begin to add more and more things to the cash shop and game transform into P2W trash and dies.

    This is destiny of every open world PVP MMO.
  • MixaZavr wrote: »
    Everyone who's place Mortal Online among his favourite MMOs doesn't worth listening to.

    Joined the forums four (4) days ago and already spiraling down into insults ... well done.

    I agree, sorry for that.
  • Okeydoke wrote: »
    But yes, the cold hard truth is that in a pure democracy, we lose every time.

    Never have I seen the tyranny of the majority do something good. In any case, money talks, so if the game needs to cater to PvE players to continue to exist we'll have to understand that something needs to be done. From all of the possibilities of catering to carebears I've heard so far, PvE servers is the only option that won't hurt the game for people who want what was promised in the Kickstarter. That's pretty clear to me, at least.
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  • StreviStrevi Member
    edited October 2022
    BaSkA13 wrote: »
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    But yes, the cold hard truth is that in a pure democracy, we lose every time.

    Never have I seen the tyranny of the majority do something good. In any case, money talks, so if the game needs to cater to PvE players to continue to exist we'll have to understand that something needs to be done. From all of the possibilities of catering to carebears I've heard so far, PvE servers is the only option that won't hurt the game for people who want what was promised in the Kickstarter. That's pretty clear to me, at least.
    There might be other ways too.
    Those other ways this thread tries to find out.
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  • Liniker wrote: »
    MixaZavr wrote: »
    Everyone who's place Mortal Online among his favourite MMOs doesn't worth listening to.

    Ok buddy

    Sorry for this, I'm become a bit to aggressive if subject of the discussion is open world PVP. I'm to many times seen how it kills a MMO. If you like Mortal Online it's totally fine, different people have different tastes in games, but you have to admit, Mortal Online is not suitable for majority of MMO players.
  • MixaZavr wrote: »
    Liniker wrote: »
    MixaZavr wrote: »
    Everyone who's place Mortal Online among his favourite MMOs doesn't worth listening to.

    Ok buddy

    Sorry for this, I'm become a bit to aggressive if subject of the discussion is open world PVP. I'm to many times seen how it kills a MMO. If you like Mortal Online it's totally fine, different people have different tastes in games, but you have to admit, Mortal Online is not suitable for majority of MMO players.

    It is your fault.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • Strevi wrote: »
    MixaZavr wrote: »
    Liniker wrote: »
    MixaZavr wrote: »
    Everyone who's place Mortal Online among his favourite MMOs doesn't worth listening to.

    Ok buddy

    Sorry for this, I'm become a bit to aggressive if subject of the discussion is open world PVP. I'm to many times seen how it kills a MMO. If you like Mortal Online it's totally fine, different people have different tastes in games, but you have to admit, Mortal Online is not suitable for majority of MMO players.

    It is your fault.

    Well yes, that's the reason i apologize.
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