Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
I disagree. Consumers are brought into the process, it’s literally where a ‘taste test’ occurs. Now, neither Coke or Pepsi are as transparent with their development process as Ashes, but it doesn’t mean that feedback isn’t solicited or used.
The real point is that purchasing (or potentially purchasing) that product doesn’t give the consumer any kind of entitlement to assume that feedback will be implemented post-haste or else.
In many cases, the direct feedback of what customers say they want can cause more harm to a product line if taken at face value. That’s why ethnographic research and consumer studies are critical to contextualize direct feedback.
oh they asked for feedback. companies do surveys and research all the time and they advertise their products, they make changes and test them, etc. there are many ways to get consumer input, not just asking directly in a forum, although asking is usually a good way.
also, what do you think its feedback? or even good feedback. let me ask you this, if you get sick and go to the doctor, do you tell him how to treat your illness? if you have an issue with the law, do you go to your lawyer and tell him how to build your case? no, right? so why do people want to tell game designers how to build a game when they arent game designers/developers???
good feedback: these animations look boring. or the colors are too bright. this activity feels good / bad. freeholds are too limited, i want to gather out in the world without being forced into pvp all the time, etc.
bad feedback: you should do this this and that to solve this problem because "I" (having no idea about all the other systems and how they are tied together and also not being a game designer or building a game before) don't like it, and if you don't, ill stop playing, people will stop playing, the game will fail, etc. this other idea worked in this other game that is completely different from aoc, therefore you must implement it in aoc or the game will fail.
just because people get sick a lot doesn't mean they can treat sick people, that's why we have doctors. just because you break the law a lot, doesn't mean you can build a case and defend people, that's why we have lawyers. just because people have played other games or mmorpg, doesnt mean they can make a good one, thats why we have devs.
Fair point.
I get what you are saying. Feedback needs to be constructive otherwise it loses its value. 🙏
Steven is none of these things. He is just a dude with lots of money. He never studied game design nor he worked at a company as game designer before. The company was left more than 2 years without a lead game designer.
and he hired people with the knowledge to make the game.
if i get sick a lot and im rich and decide to build a hospital, does it means I can treat people?
steven: i want the archer to feel like an archer.
designers: here is what he got, does it feels like an archer?
steven: i want the trees to look real when players chop them and they fall.
animators: on it boss.
he isn't telling them how to solve the problem, he is just telling them what the problem is and lets the people with the expertise solve it.
you also dont know anything about any education he might have had in the topic.
This same Creative Director thought that he could have a completely transparant development - and then learned the hard way that that was a poor choice. So, the development is now more opaque than Steven initially wanted.
This same Creative Director smugly claimed that Ashes was pushing towards release much faster than any previous MMORPG and that Ashes would release before 2020. At this point, we won't even get Alpha 2 before 2024.
I have years more game development experience than Steven has.
And I have more released game credits than Steven has.
That doesn't mean I could make a better MMORPG than Steven...
Still, years of experience as a gamer is very different than years of experience as a game dev.
And one of the fun aspects of witnessing gamers new to being on a dev team (or even new to QA) is watching them realize why they won't be able to do the stuff they thought they would be able to do when they were just a gamer and hadn't released any games yet.
Steven has spent, like, 80% of his life playing MMORPGs.
He understands very well the gameplay mechanics that he likes.
He has a poor understanding of the casual mindset and the PvEer mindset and the RPer mindset.
Which is why, after Jeffrey Bard left IS, Ashes game design began to skew more towards a hardcore PvP design. Create what you know.
And, yes, I think it is precisely the fact that Steven is telling the devs what he wants - which is a hardcore PvP game (he labels PvX) with plenty of adrenaline rush moments fraught with competition - and the devs give him what wants.
While he has said in the past that MMORPGs should include content for PvEers and casuals and solo players - he doesn't know (or really care about) creating an environment where those playstyles feel comfortable.
He hopes that those play styles will want to play Ashes regardless - but, you know, "Ashes is not made for everyone." So, he doesn't actually care much if they get pushed away.
I think we do know that Steven does not have a game design degree and that this is his first time on a dev team. He's a gamer who is great at hype and has enough money to fund development for 6+ years.
At this point, he has everything he needs to create an MMORPG as successful as EvE Online, ArcheAge and Lineage II. But, he doesn't really understand how to support casuals, PvEers, RPers and solo players.
And he's not relying on advice from his dev team to adequately support those playstyles.
(Hopefully that RP dev Diary will allow RPers to get the support they hope for - we'll see.)
^100% this!
Take even these forums.... some may be loud about their opinions... but that does not mean that they represent the community as a whole. I would like if they created some form of poll system later on, even if in game to see what the players views are.
We shall see how intrepid approaches everything. They do need to stick to their vision though... changing everything for a customer does not lead to success either. As the vision you had for a product was for a purpose. If you change everything, do you even offer the same product anymore, and do you know what you now have to offer? So using a poll system they can see how the community responds to their vision of the game and their ambitions. Then they can plan accordingly
The same can be said for those who support the things others are trying to change.
People don't realize how much hostile this game can sound for casuals and PvErs. It's like you don't stop to think about the reasons or just imagine it.
but that is where the problem lies. casuals, hardocre, pvpers and pvers like different things. if you want a certain audience, you offer that audience something they want, you dont offer them something another audience wants.
aoc doesn't have instances for the most part, and they are focusing on one group of players so they have to offer what that group wants. they can't really split the game too much to offer a different group what they want, and it doesn't make much sense to do so, since you want to offer the things your focus group wants, although members of other groups can benefit from those things.
so it doesn't matter if other groups aren't getting exactly what they want, because the game is targeted at a different group.
Yes, but I believe it's disingenuous to call it PvX. It's a PvP game. Calling PvX seems like a lure or trap to make those who enjoy PvE fall for it. The same can be said about raid bosses, which is something PvE. Steven several times said things like they will be hard and etc etc.
Everywhere you go the game it's PvP, just call it like that.
The thing is, players can't level doing only PvP, they have to partake on PvE for XPs. Nothing exceptional in that, almost all MMOs with PvP demanded their players to also do PvE for progression (level and gear). PvP has often been strapped on top of a main PvE gameplay experience.
I'd say PvX describe rather well how both interwoven in AoC. Neither can be ignored, both are integral to the experience and it's at the core of all systems in one way or another. That's why PvE servers wouldn't make much sense. At least, that's my opinion.
A PvE server makes complete sense. The only thing it removes is random attacks. You can still have guild wars, node wars, castle sieges and open seas.
The only feature that wouldn't be available y random Pk in the world, which corruption is supposed to stop (and doesn't) anyway.
I don't want a PvE server anyway, just have the game like it's supposed to be
It's not disingenuous, it's what the game is. There are some grey areas, there's some overlap between the different realms of what someone might consider to be pve, pvp, or pvx. In all, I'd say it can be a little confusing. And it's hard to assign every little aspect to it's perfect little box of categorization. But pvx is the most accurate description of what Ashes is.
In ESO, pve and pvp were largely separate and completely independent of each other. Every player had to engage in at least the basics of pve to level and gear up their character. But you could fairly quickly get to the point where you can focus on just doing one or the other. And then Undercity or whatever it was called came out. This was a pvx feature in an otherwise segregated game. So now the differences start to become apparent.
Same with DAOC. Everyone had to do the basics of pve, leveling up and gearing themselves up to the point they wanted. And then you focus on whatever you want, pve, pvp, little of both. Once I got geared up in DAOC, there wasn't much maintenance of my character. I could cruise Emain Macha all day, every day pvping. Or I could go pve. The only time I was compelled to pve was for a new content patch, new gear etc. That quickly passed and back to the status quo. And then Darkness Falls was released, a contested, pvx dungeon. Differences between the content types apparent.
So Ashes is going straight pvx. The world is pvx. There are several different layers of "maintenance" you have to perform that will compel you to pve, pretty much infinitely. Your desires as an individual, personal progression and power, gear score, wealth. The goals of your guild, it's power, prestige, it's place in the world. Your node, it's power and health, it's security, it's viability and competitiveness with other nodes.
These things will compel you to continue to pve, whereas in many games a pvper can meet a certain threshold of pve, then just infinitely queue up for pvp battlegrounds. In Ashes you have to pve to continue to progress and not even just to progress, but to maintain the status quo of your current power. Your gear degrades and needs repair, nodes atrophy. You have to be out in the world advancing you and your's interest. And it's all subject to pvp (though many activities will probably only be lightly contested at best.) This is pvx.
A little made up scenario. In the open ocean, a group of people come along and kill another group of people who are farming one of the most lucrative spots in the game. That group of killers should then feel compelled to some extent to stay there and farm that spot. They could continue to roam looking for pvp. And they might, sometimes, if they're in that mode. But there should be a pretty strong desire to stay there and farm. It's too good to pass up. It's one of the best spots in the game, we just cleared it and now we have it all to ourselves. And we need these items, we need this money. We could roam and maybe find another group to kill somewhere else and take ~25% of their loot. But right now, we got this spot and it's pumping. Until someone else shows up to contest it. This is pvx. You feel compelled to do pve AND pvp.
That's the way I look at it at least. And based on some of the designs of Ashes I feel comfortable connecting certain dots and coming to that conclusion.
tldr: If you look at other games, in some of them you can see that pve and pvp is segregated. In many games, pvp is not required at all for a pver. And in many, pve is only required up to a certain point for pvpers. Contrast that with Ashes.
i think we need to agree on a definition of pve, pvp, pvx, solo, cooperative, competitive, cooperative-competitive before we move forward
Pvp - you fight players
Pvx - you fight players while also fighting monsters
Solo - you do everthing alone
Cooperative - you group up
Compeditive - you compete for scarce resources or rewards.
Cooperative-compeditive - you group up to to beat out other groups for scarce resources or rewards.
The best the designers can hope for is to design the game and systems where there is not a dominant strategy. I think I see a heavy lean towards “meaningful” PVP and cooperative player interaction. But with every rule or system there are unintended consequences. Players do not always follow the intent of game design. They will push the envelope and if the experience is fun they will stay, but if it isn’t then they will leave.
Trying to give something everyone wants more often than not will result in something no one wants because it’s at best broken or at worst mediocre. So the best advice is to stick to the plan, consider the obvious changes and make a game that upholds its integrity to stand the test of time.
I think the Dev Diary questions is a much better avenue for gauging fan interests. Because there is no implied promise that the devs will adjust their design to meet some numerical consensus.
And, what PvEers really want to know is what kind of servers are available to play:
PvE-Only - rating of 0
PvP-Optional - rating of 1
PvP - rating of 2
The Ashes ruleset is at least a rating of 1.5.
So.. at that point...PvX becomes irrelevant. It might be meaningful for people who typically play on PvP servers, I suppose.
This is so, so wrong...
hardcore pvp players think that ashes is a shit casual game made for PvE pussies
thats the literal definition I've heard actual HC PvP players give the game when they learn you can't kill someone and take their shit without an insane 400% death penalty lol
no sane person is gonna be murdering people with the corruption system in place, and no hardcore pvp game has systems like corruption that was literally made to Protect players
you simply fail to understand that just because a game has PvP that doesn't make it "hardcore"
it's just not PvE-only
that's it
L2 wasn't hardcore, AA wasn't hardcore
and if you think those are hardcore pvp games... well you are wrong
Hardcore would be shadowbane or mortal online 2. AoC has element to protect casual players and make pvp skewed more towards meaningful fights to the degree they are aiming for. Which imo is a good thing if we are going to have a large lasting mmorpg.
Sure, there are extremist "hardcore PvPers" who believe that Ashes is shit because it has a Corruption mechanic - they are not even worth mentioning.
Just as if I ever refer to casual PvErs in relation to Ashes, I wouldn't be talking about the extremists who believe Ashes is shit because there is no PvE-Only server.
Neither extreme end of the PvP spectrum has any bearing on these discussions because they were never planning to play Ashes in any case.
After getting some sleep....
Notice that I said, "hardcore, PvP-centric game". I did not say "hardcore PvP game".
I do try to be precise about my word choice and grammar, but, sure... when I'm tired/sleepy, I can be lazy and attempt to shortcut my concepts.
When I discuss Ashes, I am never talking about the "hardcore PvPers" who never planned to play Ashes because they feel Corruption is too restrictive for their playstyle.
The long version of my philosophy is there are two spectra of hardcore/casual:
Hardcore Challenge ---- Casual Challenge
Hardcore Time ---- Casual Time
When I refer to myself as a "Casual player", that is actually a shortcut for: Casual Challenge/Hardcore Time player.
When I say something like "hardcore mindset" that is a shortcut for "Hardcore Challenge mindset" - gamers who crave combat and competition and risk and the thrill of adrenaline.
As opposed to a "Casual Challenge mindset" - players who prefer to be more chill - harvest, craft, build and decorate homes, rp their character personalities, explore the map and socialize with other players.
On the PvP spectrum... I tend to sympathize with PvEers because even though I refer to myself as a PvP-Sometimes player - I typically move from PvP-Optional servers over to PvE-Only servers.
So, if I am attempting brevity, I might lump myself in with PvEers.
Ashes has no separation of PvP gear and PvE gear because Steven wants Ashes gamers to constantly be considering the PvP ramifications of their choices.
Even when contemplating Inventory, Steven wants Ashes gamers to be strategizing economic warfare and how the bags we choose for harvesting will impact how we might retake the battlefield from other players if we die from PvP.
And that's because Steven is a gamer with a Hardcore Challenge mindset. Steven also has a PvPer mindset.
And I'm going to say that players with a Casual Challenge mindset probably don't want to have to strategize for warfare every time they want to pick some flowers or harvest whatever they need to harvest or tame to support their farm.
How do you get those disparate playstyles to play together on the same server?
Especially because on the EQNext forums, the quickest way to get someone banned was for a PvPer to offer a compromise to try to entice the PvEers. The PvPer would be thinking they made a wonderful offer and the PvErs would become offended and start flaming the PvPer and get temp bans.
Flip side, when a PvEer would offer a compromise to try to entice the PvPers, thinking they made a wonderful offer, the PvPers would become offended and flame the PvEers and get temp bans.
Those PvPers honestly wanted the PvEers to be an integral part of the server - protecting them from PKing, relying on them for Crafting. But, all of the rulesets the PvPers offered were met with, "WTF would I want to play on a server like that?"
Steven hired so many SOE/EQ devs - including an EQ Lead Game Designer - that I initially thought the dev team would want to capture the casuals and PvEers who loved playing EQ/EQ2.
But, after Jeffrey Bard left IS, it's become more and more clear that Steven is designing the game to appeal to the gamers who love EvE Online, ArcheAge and Lineage II.
He's going to stick to the core pillars that reflect Lineage II. And the casuals and "PvEers" he's thinking of are relative to those who loved playing Lineage II.
Sure, just like those EQNext PvPers would have loved to entice the EQNext PvEers to play with them, they couldn't find a true compromise.
Yeah... and... you know... even the Lineage II devs working on Throne and Liberty want to make T&L more PvE oriented than L2.
https://www.mmorpg.com/editorials/throne-and-liberty-could-be-2023s-big-next-gen-mmo-launch-2000126568
Throne and Liberty will be a PVE-First Title
Great PvP experiences are always welcome but it looks like NCSoft will be putting most of its eggs in the PvE basket. The developers revealed that the vast majority of players prefer PvE content.
So... I think it's great for Steven to create a PvP-focused MMORPG for the players who crave that gameplay.
Hopefully, a home for all those disgruntled PvPers from the New World Alphas... etc.
Exactly. I expect there to be other MMORPGs available.
And Ashes will be great for the gamers who love the direction in which Steven is taking the game design.
Based on the population of Shadowbane, and the current reviews for MO2, hardcore PvP MMO's don't seem to be for very many people at all.
On the other hand, hardcore PvE MMO's are thriving.