It wasn't an insult. The point stands, do you want to play ashes? If so what drew you to ashes because so far you seem to dislike the basic fundamentals.
I love the fundamentals. Nodes are awesome, augemnts are great, open world sounds amazing, a variety of classes and unique customization should be great, graphics look astounding, and the lead dev has actually played an MMO in the past decade as a player with a team that has experience playing MMOs with a variety of skill levels versus someone who's been a lead developer in the industry for 20+ years beholden to turning a profit for shareholders.
Awesome, heres another question. Will character levels stop you from playing the game?
Depends on how it takes for it to be fun. If I'm playing a tank and my abilities and role are locked behind a timewall, it'll probably be pretty boring unless the starting zone has something to keep my interest. And that doesn't refer to saving a village from a graphically beautiful dragon. I've done that before and don't particularly care to do it again.
Well then I finally have a question.
Do games like Elder Scrolls where your character COULD theoretically do without 'real levels' but still need to do things like 'Speechcraft to level 100' also cause a negative response?
Games of this type tend to have SOME form of progression, would you say that you're opposed to the 'power gap' part of it?
For example, I play one where you start with a 'basic generic' Martial Arts kit, and you still have to 'level' by finding opponents to face who know other moves, but you could theoretically win fights with just the base kit, it's not 'weaker', it just possibly isn't 'what you prefer', and even that might not be true.
Basically, is it 'having to kill mobs to raise a number' only or is 'having to work toward your customizations because you disprefer the default kit' also an offender in this?
The Elder Scrolls (I assume you mean Skyrim, Oblivion, Morrowind etc) are single player games. The leveling aspect is part of the pacing for both design and story. Part of the fun for those games is beating them naked, or under leveled, or over leveled, or with specific classes, or with no heals, etc.
The Elder Scrolls also got rid of leveling in the general sense or made things like speech craft unnecessary outside of a specific dialogue tree responses in the later releases. I don't remember if Skyrim had any particular quests locked behind 100 speech or not, it's been awhile since I played it. Obviously, there's mods to change that, but the majority of players don't use mods.
This is also true for MMORPGs though, or at least, in some better ones it can be.
I'm trying to figure out if you have a design issue with leveling itself, or with 'a thing that comes along with it, which a game could simply choose not to do' (I am not claiming that Ashes has chosen not to do that something, so this probably isn't actually important).
So, to repeat the part that might be relevant.
I can play certain games where I need to put in time to get through the game's 'gates' to progress, such as 'gathering materials to make better gear' or 'encountering a situation in battle enough times for my character to unlock a related skill', but there are no gates based on initial level, and you could theoretically do all content without doing basically any of that through raw skill.
Is this fine? Because it's hard to tell where you draw the line here. "I like this Augment but I have to grind through this Social Organization's Questlines which I don't find appealing, I should just be able to have the Augment now because it would be more fun for me" would be a way someone could uncharitably interpret your position.
Ashes story isn't about you, its about the world and how players on a server build it. When you are grinding an augment you're interacting with the world a specific way that intentionally builds the server in a specific manner. Ideally, this will cause social interaction and structures that are unique on a per server basis. In this scenario, I chose to engage with the world and the associated rewards/problems that come with it. Forced grinding through leveling does not allow for this choice. I must engage with the leveling process first before I can interact how and where I want.
But this is an assumption you are making.
Basically, you don't know that. I don't even know why you think it. Based on my time in Alpha-1, I never felt like this at all. Do you just not like fighting mobs? Even that, you could get around outside of quests. I don't get it.
Assume that I'm COMPLETELY in agreement with you on the basic idea, but I don't agree that what you are saying is even likely to happen in Ashes just because the game contains levels. Maybe then you can explain it to me, if you care?
I think you could get to level 10 in Alpha-1 without fighting a single non-quest mob.
I fought mobs because I like doing that and I didn't like certain quests. Other people did quests and didn't fight mobs. Maybe you don't want to do quests OR fight early mobs?
Or maybe you're not as familiar with the style of EXP gain that certain games use? In Ashes Alpha, if you could manage to kill something 5 levels above you, you would get 4x the exp that you get for killing something at your own level.
I didn't bother doing it, but I feel like I could have hit level 10 in 2h, and that was with at least 30 minutes of it just 'wandering all the way to the Node I was helping test' every time.
What is it that you're imagining is locked behind leveling that ALSO won't have a 'lower level version' to engage with?
The entire game is based around Vera. Its a new world where the players build up the social infrastructure via the node system. Converse that with WoW where you are the Champion, or Hero, or some other meaningless title that slays the big monster every expansion. Will there be important players who have their own story and are impactful? Absolutely, there will be players like the Mittani, but the story is about how the world evolves around them not the other way around.
They can change whatever they want. The experience required to level is a variable in the code. Alpha 1 was really just a tech demo with a wrapper around it to make it more interesting than a graybox and as a marketing vessel to illustrate a proof of concept. The xp system you mention were there to illustrate that the knob to do it exists in the code, but doesn't necessitate that it'll be there at launch.
There's nothing wrong with the game containing levels. They act as a tutorial for basic gameplay, like movement, vendoring, opening bags, skill training, etc. Once I've learned these things, I should be released into the world to choose my own adventure relative to what I want to do and how I want to exist within the world. Leveling only serves as a means to hinder my ability to do just that based on an arbitrary timesink that doesn't teach you how to play.
Unique play spaces, combat/noncombat play styles, social activities with people I want to interact all come secondary to leveling. Unless, I want to be wildly less efficient at them to the point where its an even larger time sink to not level first.
Ok, I don't think you would find too many people who disagree with that feedback.
There are multiple reasons in MMOs to have levels, but none of them have to do with players at your skill level, and mostly, I feel like the game's goal should be to get it out of your way as much as is reasonable, while allowing it to function for others who need it.
Simple hot take:
Levels are a psychological crutch that are used to keep certain tiers of player skill/investment stratified properly, and to give players who don't do well a good 'excuse' why, because they're often casual enough to never go check 'what other people are doing'.
What you want is for Leveling to not hinder you in Ashes. Sure. What I want is for leveling to be at worst a mild inconvenience for you, and a nice huge emotional cushion for those players who get frustrated easily at failing.
I really don't know what game you played where levels meaningfully hinder your ability to follow your chosen path on a macro-level, but I hope you found something better.
Grati pur data.
Wildstar is an easy example. There I had to level in order to play with my friends in order to participate in raids, housing, PVP. The thing is, I only made it to level 20 and never got to the part of the game I wanted to play.
The literal billions of dollars spent on leveling in MMO games over the past 15ish years prove that that new-player cushion doesn't happen as a result of leveling. This reality combined with the gameplay information apparatus aka youtube guides makes leveling a pointless timesink.
This reality combined with the gameplay information apparatus aka youtube guides makes leveling a pointless timesink.
Well, many argue gaming falls into the category of pointless time sink, I disagree but that is because I have a fundamentally different view on what is pointless. For you it is pointless, for many of us arguing its nice, that's really all there is to it.
Ok, I think I'm done with this thread. It was pointless from the start and it kept being pointless throughout. Levels won't go away, people who like rpgs will keep liking rpgs, the sun might or might not come up tomorrow.
None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area.
If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me.
It sounds to me like you just want maximum efficiency, without putting the effort in to achieve that.
Fun fact, while it may be true that high levels will dominate lower level content if it is profitable for them to do so, if you remove the need to gain levels, if you remove that time investment, players will dominate all content. At that point, there is nothing stopping anyone from dominating any content.
The thing with genesis that the setup is as important as the payoff. A game that is all payoff and no setup is a game with a very short lifespan.
Most people prefer working towards a goal and then achieving said goal, rather than just having that reward handed to them. The reward is more appreciated and more enjoyed when it is worked for. The more it is worked for, the more it is enjoyed.
If you want to be a pirate in Ashes, work towards being a pirate in Ashes. You'll enjoy it more if you put that effort in.
I don't need to eat a bowl of feces to appreciate a perfectly cooked/seasoned meal.
Oh, you want to do a food analogy?
An MMO is like a restaurant's degustation menu. Its 10 courses, and each course is designed to be a part of the meal as a whole. Each course builds on the previous course in some way.
What you are saying here is that you want to go to a restaurant, order the degustation menu, but you only plan to eat one of the ten courses - and you expect to be satisfied by that.
If all you want is one plate of food, order that plate of food off of the a la carte menu. That menu is designed to satisfy people with individual dishes.
In terms of our discussion here, the a la carte menu would be other individual games. If you want to play a game to just be a pirate, dont play a game where being a pirate is about 2% of the whole and expect to be satisfied.
Rather, go play Sea of Thieves or something. Or learn to accept the rest of the game.
I'm allergic to tree nuts. The third item on your ten-course meal has tree nuts in it. Must I partake in this item to continue progressing in the "experience"?
What you consider what percentage of a game is irrelevant as what you want is different than what others want. MMOs thrive when players with a variety of playstyles come together to partake in a shared world.
If you have an allergy, we can work with that.
If you just have a dislike of treenuts, however, try that course anyway.
You are not allergic to grinding, you just dont like it.
You didn't answer the question. Must I partake in the third course in order to move on to the fourth?
You said you had an allergy, so I addressed that.
If you now want to ignore your own analogy of allergies to treenuts, sure, we can do that.
Yes, you will be served the course. And the following course will jot be served until all are ready for it.
If you chose to not partake in any one specific course, that is on you.
However, the remaining courses will not be altered just because of your decision to not fully participate in the 10 course meal.
Keep in mind though, if we were to try and accurately transfer what you are complaining about to a 10 course meal, you would be refusing to eat 9 out of the 10 courses, not just one.
If you were to say you didnt want to participate in one aspect of the game (crafting, as an example), this would be like skipping one course.
In both cases, that's fine - there should be enough left to still satisfy a reasonable person.
However, tiu saying you want to skip everything other than being a pirate is like you saying you want to only have course number 7, and expect it to be done in a way where it satisfies you on its own.
None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area.
If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me.
It sounds to me like you just want maximum efficiency, without putting the effort in to achieve that.
Fun fact, while it may be true that high levels will dominate lower level content if it is profitable for them to do so, if you remove the need to gain levels, if you remove that time investment, players will dominate all content. At that point, there is nothing stopping anyone from dominating any content.
The thing with genesis that the setup is as important as the payoff. A game that is all payoff and no setup is a game with a very short lifespan.
Most people prefer working towards a goal and then achieving said goal, rather than just having that reward handed to them. The reward is more appreciated and more enjoyed when it is worked for. The more it is worked for, the more it is enjoyed.
If you want to be a pirate in Ashes, work towards being a pirate in Ashes. You'll enjoy it more if you put that effort in.
I don't need to eat a bowl of feces to appreciate a perfectly cooked/seasoned meal.
Oh, you want to do a food analogy?
An MMO is like a restaurant's degustation menu. Its 10 courses, and each course is designed to be a part of the meal as a whole. Each course builds on the previous course in some way.
What you are saying here is that you want to go to a restaurant, order the degustation menu, but you only plan to eat one of the ten courses - and you expect to be satisfied by that.
If all you want is one plate of food, order that plate of food off of the a la carte menu. That menu is designed to satisfy people with individual dishes.
In terms of our discussion here, the a la carte menu would be other individual games. If you want to play a game to just be a pirate, dont play a game where being a pirate is about 2% of the whole and expect to be satisfied.
Rather, go play Sea of Thieves or something. Or learn to accept the rest of the game.
I'm allergic to tree nuts. The third item on your ten-course meal has tree nuts in it. Must I partake in this item to continue progressing in the "experience"?
What you consider what percentage of a game is irrelevant as what you want is different than what others want. MMOs thrive when players with a variety of playstyles come together to partake in a shared world.
If you have an allergy, we can work with that.
If you just have a dislike of treenuts, however, try that course anyway.
You are not allergic to grinding, you just dont like it.
You didn't answer the question. Must I partake in the third course in order to move on to the fourth?
You said you had an allergy, so I addressed that.
If you now want to ignore your own analogy of allergies to treenuts, sure, we can do that.
Yes, you will be served the course. And the following course will jot be served until all are ready for it.
If you chose to not partake in any one specific course, that is on you.
However, the remaining courses will not be altered just because of your decision to not fully participate in the 10 course meal.
Keep in mind though, if we were to try and accurately transfer what you are complaining about to a 10 course meal, you would be refusing to eat 9 out of the 10 courses, not just one.
If you were to say you didnt want to participate in one aspect of the game (crafting, as an example), this would be like skipping one course.
In both cases, that's fine - there should be enough left to still satisfy a reasonable person.
However, tiu saying you want to skip everything other than being a pirate is like you saying you want to only have course number 7, and expect it to be done in a way where it satisfies you on its own.
An allergy acts as an inciting incident. You can replace the word allergy with dislike the taste, hate the smell, walnuts personally harmed me as a child; it doesn't matter. In the restaurant example for leveling, i cannot go to any other course until i eat one specific one first. Like leveling itself I am locked out of participating in what I want because I don't want to eat one course.
There were plenty of people who played Archage specifically for the boat-based content. If that's the starting point for content in Ashes, there will be plenty of engaging activities to do around that.
None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area.
If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me.
It sounds to me like you just want maximum efficiency, without putting the effort in to achieve that.
Fun fact, while it may be true that high levels will dominate lower level content if it is profitable for them to do so, if you remove the need to gain levels, if you remove that time investment, players will dominate all content. At that point, there is nothing stopping anyone from dominating any content.
The thing with genesis that the setup is as important as the payoff. A game that is all payoff and no setup is a game with a very short lifespan.
Most people prefer working towards a goal and then achieving said goal, rather than just having that reward handed to them. The reward is more appreciated and more enjoyed when it is worked for. The more it is worked for, the more it is enjoyed.
If you want to be a pirate in Ashes, work towards being a pirate in Ashes. You'll enjoy it more if you put that effort in.
I don't need to eat a bowl of feces to appreciate a perfectly cooked/seasoned meal.
Oh, you want to do a food analogy?
An MMO is like a restaurant's degustation menu. Its 10 courses, and each course is designed to be a part of the meal as a whole. Each course builds on the previous course in some way.
What you are saying here is that you want to go to a restaurant, order the degustation menu, but you only plan to eat one of the ten courses - and you expect to be satisfied by that.
If all you want is one plate of food, order that plate of food off of the a la carte menu. That menu is designed to satisfy people with individual dishes.
In terms of our discussion here, the a la carte menu would be other individual games. If you want to play a game to just be a pirate, dont play a game where being a pirate is about 2% of the whole and expect to be satisfied.
Rather, go play Sea of Thieves or something. Or learn to accept the rest of the game.
I'm allergic to tree nuts. The third item on your ten-course meal has tree nuts in it. Must I partake in this item to continue progressing in the "experience"?
What you consider what percentage of a game is irrelevant as what you want is different than what others want. MMOs thrive when players with a variety of playstyles come together to partake in a shared world.
If you have an allergy, we can work with that.
If you just have a dislike of treenuts, however, try that course anyway.
You are not allergic to grinding, you just dont like it.
You didn't answer the question. Must I partake in the third course in order to move on to the fourth?
You said you had an allergy, so I addressed that.
If you now want to ignore your own analogy of allergies to treenuts, sure, we can do that.
Yes, you will be served the course. And the following course will jot be served until all are ready for it.
If you chose to not partake in any one specific course, that is on you.
However, the remaining courses will not be altered just because of your decision to not fully participate in the 10 course meal.
Keep in mind though, if we were to try and accurately transfer what you are complaining about to a 10 course meal, you would be refusing to eat 9 out of the 10 courses, not just one.
If you were to say you didnt want to participate in one aspect of the game (crafting, as an example), this would be like skipping one course.
In both cases, that's fine - there should be enough left to still satisfy a reasonable person.
However, tiu saying you want to skip everything other than being a pirate is like you saying you want to only have course number 7, and expect it to be done in a way where it satisfies you on its own.
An allergy acts as an inciting incident. You can replace the word allergy with dislike the taste, hate the smell, walnuts personally harmed me as a child; it doesn't matter.
An allergy is a medical condition with potentially fatal repercussions.
You can not replace it with the word dislike.
In the restaurant example for leveling, i cannot go to any other course until i eat one specific one first. Like leveling itself I am locked out of participating in what I want because I don't want to eat one course.
There were plenty of people who played Archage specifically for the boat-based content. If that's the starting point for content in Ashes, there will be plenty of engaging activities to do around that.
If you dont want the 10 course menu at the restaurant, dont order it.
Dont order it and then complain that it isnt what you want.
None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area.
If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me.
It sounds to me like you just want maximum efficiency, without putting the effort in to achieve that.
Fun fact, while it may be true that high levels will dominate lower level content if it is profitable for them to do so, if you remove the need to gain levels, if you remove that time investment, players will dominate all content. At that point, there is nothing stopping anyone from dominating any content.
The thing with genesis that the setup is as important as the payoff. A game that is all payoff and no setup is a game with a very short lifespan.
Most people prefer working towards a goal and then achieving said goal, rather than just having that reward handed to them. The reward is more appreciated and more enjoyed when it is worked for. The more it is worked for, the more it is enjoyed.
If you want to be a pirate in Ashes, work towards being a pirate in Ashes. You'll enjoy it more if you put that effort in.
I don't need to eat a bowl of feces to appreciate a perfectly cooked/seasoned meal.
Oh, you want to do a food analogy?
An MMO is like a restaurant's degustation menu. Its 10 courses, and each course is designed to be a part of the meal as a whole. Each course builds on the previous course in some way.
What you are saying here is that you want to go to a restaurant, order the degustation menu, but you only plan to eat one of the ten courses - and you expect to be satisfied by that.
If all you want is one plate of food, order that plate of food off of the a la carte menu. That menu is designed to satisfy people with individual dishes.
In terms of our discussion here, the a la carte menu would be other individual games. If you want to play a game to just be a pirate, dont play a game where being a pirate is about 2% of the whole and expect to be satisfied.
Rather, go play Sea of Thieves or something. Or learn to accept the rest of the game.
I'm allergic to tree nuts. The third item on your ten-course meal has tree nuts in it. Must I partake in this item to continue progressing in the "experience"?
What you consider what percentage of a game is irrelevant as what you want is different than what others want. MMOs thrive when players with a variety of playstyles come together to partake in a shared world.
If you have an allergy, we can work with that.
If you just have a dislike of treenuts, however, try that course anyway.
You are not allergic to grinding, you just dont like it.
You didn't answer the question. Must I partake in the third course in order to move on to the fourth?
You said you had an allergy, so I addressed that.
If you now want to ignore your own analogy of allergies to treenuts, sure, we can do that.
Yes, you will be served the course. And the following course will jot be served until all are ready for it.
If you chose to not partake in any one specific course, that is on you.
However, the remaining courses will not be altered just because of your decision to not fully participate in the 10 course meal.
Keep in mind though, if we were to try and accurately transfer what you are complaining about to a 10 course meal, you would be refusing to eat 9 out of the 10 courses, not just one.
If you were to say you didnt want to participate in one aspect of the game (crafting, as an example), this would be like skipping one course.
In both cases, that's fine - there should be enough left to still satisfy a reasonable person.
However, tiu saying you want to skip everything other than being a pirate is like you saying you want to only have course number 7, and expect it to be done in a way where it satisfies you on its own.
An allergy acts as an inciting incident. You can replace the word allergy with dislike the taste, hate the smell, walnuts personally harmed me as a child; it doesn't matter.
An allergy is a medical condition with potentially fatal repercussions.
You can not replace it with the word dislike.
In the restaurant example for leveling, i cannot go to any other course until i eat one specific one first. Like leveling itself I am locked out of participating in what I want because I don't want to eat one course.
There were plenty of people who played Archage specifically for the boat-based content. If that's the starting point for content in Ashes, there will be plenty of engaging activities to do around that.
If you dont want the 10 course menu at the restaurant, dont order it.
Dont order it and then complain that it isnt what you want.
That is the point.
In this example you can replace it with whatever you want. It's a story element not reality.
The MMO graveyard is littered with the corpses of those who said the same thing.
Well I suppose the positive of this post shows which(leveling or not leveling) is the preferred majority in this community.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
Well I suppose the positive of this post shows which(leveling or not leveling) is the preferred majority in this community.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
Theres maybe 5k (and that's pushing it) people who visit these forums once a week. That's not representative of the million+ people who will try this game on launch. If I cared about the devs reading my posts I engage with their twitter account. A significant portion of the daily content posts get direct interaction with the community manager.
I highly doubt they'll entirely remove leveling, but they can definitely make it less painful for those of us who're looking forward to Ashes for the longterm gameplay systems. [/quote]
Well I suppose the positive of this post shows which(leveling or not leveling) is the preferred majority in this community.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
Theres maybe 5k (and that's pushing it) people who visit these forums once a week. That's not representative of the million+ people who will try this game on launch. If I cared about the devs reading my posts I engage with their twitter account. A significant portion of the daily content posts get direct interaction with the community manager.
I highly doubt they'll entirely remove leveling, but they can definitely make it less painful for those of us who're looking forward to Ashes for the longterm gameplay systems.
If there is no leveling up, then the game has to implement something to prevent players to roll fast alts.
What do you suggest?
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
Well I suppose the positive of this post shows which(leveling or not leveling) is the preferred majority in this community.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
Theres maybe 5k (and that's pushing it) people who visit these forums once a week. That's not representative of the million+ people who will try this game on launch. If I cared about the devs reading my posts I engage with their twitter account. A significant portion of the daily content posts get direct interaction with the community manager.
I highly doubt they'll entirely remove leveling, but they can definitely make it less painful for those of us who're looking forward to Ashes for the longterm gameplay systems.
If there is no leveling up, then the game has to implement something to prevent players to roll fast alts.
What do you suggest?
Why must players be prevented from rolling alts? Alts provide flexibility for solo, small group, large group, and raids.
Well I suppose the positive of this post shows which(leveling or not leveling) is the preferred majority in this community.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
Theres maybe 5k (and that's pushing it) people who visit these forums once a week. That's not representative of the million+ people who will try this game on launch. If I cared about the devs reading my posts I engage with their twitter account. A significant portion of the daily content posts get direct interaction with the community manager.
I highly doubt they'll entirely remove leveling, but they can definitely make it less painful for those of us who're looking forward to Ashes for the longterm gameplay systems.
If there is no leveling up, then the game has to implement something to prevent players to roll fast alts.
What do you suggest?
Why must players be prevented from rolling alts? Alts provide flexibility for solo, small group, large group, and raids.
Because I do not want players to be solo players in the mmo world. I want them to depend on each-other.
AoC has as design pillar this idea where players create micro communities and cannot obtain everything alone.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
Well I suppose the positive of this post shows which(leveling or not leveling) is the preferred majority in this community.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
Theres maybe 5k (and that's pushing it) people who visit these forums once a week. That's not representative of the million+ people who will try this game on launch. If I cared about the devs reading my posts I engage with their twitter account. A significant portion of the daily content posts get direct interaction with the community manager.
I highly doubt they'll entirely remove leveling, but they can definitely make it less painful for those of us who're looking forward to Ashes for the longterm gameplay systems.
If there is no leveling up, then the game has to implement something to prevent players to roll fast alts.
What do you suggest?
Why must players be prevented from rolling alts? Alts provide flexibility for solo, small group, large group, and raids.
Because I do not want players to be solo players in the mmo world. I want them to depend on each-other.
AoC has as design pillar this idea where players create micro communities and cannot obtain everything alone.
Rolling an alt doesn't mean you don't need other players. People are already in their own communities carried over from other games. That cat is already out of the bag.
Well I suppose the positive of this post shows which(leveling or not leveling) is the preferred majority in this community.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
Theres maybe 5k (and that's pushing it) people who visit these forums once a week. That's not representative of the million+ people who will try this game on launch. If I cared about the devs reading my posts I engage with their twitter account. A significant portion of the daily content posts get direct interaction with the community manager.
I highly doubt they'll entirely remove leveling, but they can definitely make it less painful for those of us who're looking forward to Ashes for the longterm gameplay systems.
If there is no leveling up, then the game has to implement something to prevent players to roll fast alts.
What do you suggest?
Why must players be prevented from rolling alts? Alts provide flexibility for solo, small group, large group, and raids.
Because I do not want players to be solo players in the mmo world. I want them to depend on each-other.
AoC has as design pillar this idea where players create micro communities and cannot obtain everything alone.
Rolling an alt doesn't mean you don't need other players. People are already in their own communities carried over from other games. That cat is already out of the bag.
Rolling an alt fast with the current design would allow the player to master more professions. How do you solve this problem? It is possible to master up to two professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[6][5][7][3]
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
Ok, I think I'm done with this thread. It was pointless from the start and it kept being pointless throughout. Levels won't go away, people who like rpgs will keep liking rpgs, the sun might or might not come up tomorrow.
Good talk, everyone
I'm surprised you didnt throw Steven quote at him
"THIS GAME ISNT FOR YOU"
What he's advocating isnt gonna happen or change. It's a horse with no legs and a troll being fed.
{UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
I don't have problem with you not wanting levels @KingDDD , but the way you try to make claims that many or most mmorpg players in general don't want it, dismissing the overwhelming majority in this thread disagreeing with you, and even trying make ridiculous claims like NW failing because they included levels makes you seem very trolly.
I assume you also want people to be master crafters almost immediately right? If you're being consistent. Because that's also just a levelling system, no different than the adventurer levels in principle. Input time and effort and get a higher level. It would completely kill the economy of the game if they do that of course.
Personally I want unlimited character progression (not player progression) since this is an MMORPG based on the pen and paper RPGs like Pathfinder, and that is a major part of the character's story in those.
Never-ending levels, preferably in horizontal levelling systems, where I can level up my class, my crafting my social origanizations, my freehold, my religion, maybe some day some master level type stuff. I want all the levelling, non-stop, forever. I never want to feel like I can't progress my character anymore in some way, be it combat, social stuff, or purely lore-based, because that is a core element of what the MMORPG genre is all about.
Well I suppose the positive of this post shows which(leveling or not leveling) is the preferred majority in this community.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
Theres maybe 5k (and that's pushing it) people who visit these forums once a week. That's not representative of the million+ people who will try this game on launch. If I cared about the devs reading my posts I engage with their twitter account. A significant portion of the daily content posts get direct interaction with the community manager.
I highly doubt they'll entirely remove leveling, but they can definitely make it less painful for those of us who're looking forward to Ashes for the longterm gameplay systems.
If there is no leveling up, then the game has to implement something to prevent players to roll fast alts.
What do you suggest?
Why must players be prevented from rolling alts? Alts provide flexibility for solo, small group, large group, and raids.
Because I do not want players to be solo players in the mmo world. I want them to depend on each-other.
AoC has as design pillar this idea where players create micro communities and cannot obtain everything alone.
Rolling an alt doesn't mean you don't need other players. People are already in their own communities carried over from other games. That cat is already out of the bag.
Rolling an alt fast with the current design would allow the player to master more professions. How do you solve this problem? It is possible to master up to two professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[6][5][7][3]
I doubt you can simultaneously craft two things at once. Guilds, both small and large will already funnel mats to whoever they deem their crafting accounts to be. Alts actually being able to craft without having to level only helps those who only want to engage in the crafting/economic game loop.
Ok, I think I'm done with this thread. It was pointless from the start and it kept being pointless throughout. Levels won't go away, people who like rpgs will keep liking rpgs, the sun might or might not come up tomorrow.
Good talk, everyone
I'm surprised you didnt throw Steven quote at him
"THIS GAME ISNT FOR YOU"
What he's advocating isnt gonna happen or change. It's a horse with no legs and a troll being fed.
If the game is enjoyable for the player who asks for skill to matter less than time investment then your game is gonna have a few problems with player retention.
In this example you can replace it with whatever you want. It's a story element not reality.
It's a gameplay element, not a story element. Leveling has a purpose. All the effort you put in to achieve a goal in an MMO has a purpose.
The MMO graveyard is littered with the corpses of those who said the same thing.
Well this is a stupid comment - the list of successful MMO's is also "littered" with the living bodies of MMO's that are doing the same thing.
Its a story element in the restaurant example. You seemed unable to get around the word allergy. What is the purpose of leveling? It's not teaching anyone how to play the game. It's not a requirement to facilitate character customization. The sense of power progression can come from other sources. The warm fuzzy feeling you get can be achieved in other ways.
The funny part is everyone one of those successful MMOs has made leveling faster or gotten rid of parts of it entirely. WoWs newest expansion is praised for having a quick leveling experience. This lets people play the game how they want to.
Well I suppose the positive of this post shows which(leveling or not leveling) is the preferred majority in this community.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
Theres maybe 5k (and that's pushing it) people who visit these forums once a week. That's not representative of the million+ people who will try this game on launch. If I cared about the devs reading my posts I engage with their twitter account. A significant portion of the daily content posts get direct interaction with the community manager.
I highly doubt they'll entirely remove leveling, but they can definitely make it less painful for those of us who're looking forward to Ashes for the longterm gameplay systems.
If there is no leveling up, then the game has to implement something to prevent players to roll fast alts.
What do you suggest?
Why must players be prevented from rolling alts? Alts provide flexibility for solo, small group, large group, and raids.
Because I do not want players to be solo players in the mmo world. I want them to depend on each-other.
AoC has as design pillar this idea where players create micro communities and cannot obtain everything alone.
Rolling an alt doesn't mean you don't need other players. People are already in their own communities carried over from other games. That cat is already out of the bag.
Rolling an alt fast with the current design would allow the player to master more professions. How do you solve this problem? It is possible to master up to two professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[6][5][7][3]
I doubt you can simultaneously craft two things at once. Guilds, both small and large will already funnel mats to whoever they deem their crafting accounts to be. Alts actually being able to craft without having to level only helps those who only want to engage in the crafting/economic game loop.
Can you reformulate please? I don't understand your position here.
For me the crafting and economic loop is very important.
You may want to have a tank, dd and healer fast without leveling.
I say you should not be able to be master gathering, processing and crafting fast. I want the artisan leveling to be very long. Is this acceptable for you? If yes, then how do you ensure that players who roll and get 3 max characters fast will not also become proficient as artisans in different classes and professions?
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way.
Leveling should never be considered a time sink as long as it's fun and interesting, and if you're a part-time player, maybe you should consider being a vassal and supplement/help the players who are investing a lot of time in the game(not sure if that's how to mechanic is supposed to work). TBH, I'm sick of games where every player is the ultimate hero of the world, however how many million of them there are. I want a more realistic world where there are all sorts of characters at different levels, and the time invested in a game could be a great way to set those levels, I don't think a weekend only player should be rewarded the same as someone who invests a lot of time in the game. Maybe for once, I'd like to play a nobody and just exist in the virtual world exploring and making friends, struggling against a difficult hostile world, until eventually my fame starts to precede me and my character becomes a hero, not because it's what everybody does, but because I earned it.
As well, you might want a fast progression so that you don't have to spend so much time, but if that applies to everyone, some people are just going to devour it whole and before too long, the whole game is ruined because there's just no where else to go, too fast? Think about every persons experience. I could imagine some guy that can only log on during the weekend, he's a combat/crafter type that's only managed to make i halfway to max level while some people are already at max, he's made some friends and is part of a small guild making potions and swords which he sells, his friends help him level and escorting his caravans. Eventually, he reaches max level... that's kinda cool on it's own, and much more memorable than every single person racing to max. If the game is good, slow down, enjoy it.
Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way.
I forgot the OP.
I hope AoC will not help players stay solo. I mean if they want to struggle, then it should be possible for them to level up. But to encourage playing solo by game design no. That would be against the main concept of AoC.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
Well I suppose the positive of this post shows which(leveling or not leveling) is the preferred majority in this community.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
Theres maybe 5k (and that's pushing it) people who visit these forums once a week. That's not representative of the million+ people who will try this game on launch. If I cared about the devs reading my posts I engage with their twitter account. A significant portion of the daily content posts get direct interaction with the community manager.
I highly doubt they'll entirely remove leveling, but they can definitely make it less painful for those of us who're looking forward to Ashes for the longterm gameplay systems.
If there is no leveling up, then the game has to implement something to prevent players to roll fast alts.
What do you suggest?
Why must players be prevented from rolling alts? Alts provide flexibility for solo, small group, large group, and raids.
Because I do not want players to be solo players in the mmo world. I want them to depend on each-other.
AoC has as design pillar this idea where players create micro communities and cannot obtain everything alone.
Rolling an alt doesn't mean you don't need other players. People are already in their own communities carried over from other games. That cat is already out of the bag.
Rolling an alt fast with the current design would allow the player to master more professions. How do you solve this problem? It is possible to master up to two professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[6][5][7][3]
I doubt you can simultaneously craft two things at once. Guilds, both small and large will already funnel mats to whoever they deem their crafting accounts to be. Alts actually being able to craft without having to level only helps those who only want to engage in the crafting/economic game loop.
Can you reformulate please? I don't understand your position here.
For me the crafting and economic loop is very important.
You may want to have a tank, dd and healer fast without leveling.
I say you should not be able to be master gathering, processing and crafting fast. I want the artisan leveling to be very long. Is this acceptable for you? If yes, then how do you ensure that players who roll and get 3 max characters fast will not also become proficient as artisans in different classes and professions?
Mastering crafting should take dedication, and have a progression path associated with it that makes items with higher statistics , consumes less resources, has unique stats, etc. You should be able to engage with the crafting minigame itself (most likely a combo of Vanguard's minigame system and Archeage's labor points) for 15 min segments or hours at a time depending on your time constraints. Likewise, gathering should have the same thing. In both of these systems you are actively playing the game how you want to play it and engaging with the larger world how you want to.
Guilds will have max level crafters within weeks of hitting the level cap unless its time-gated. If not the alt scenario you propose doesn't matter because the unique specialty you seek will be nullified by the abilities of guilds to brute force through it.
Solo play should be viable too. Not everyone has as much spare time as me in my communities and I don't want to be sat twiddling my thumbs while I wait for people to log in.
Comments
Wildstar is an easy example. There I had to level in order to play with my friends in order to participate in raids, housing, PVP. The thing is, I only made it to level 20 and never got to the part of the game I wanted to play.
The literal billions of dollars spent on leveling in MMO games over the past 15ish years prove that that new-player cushion doesn't happen as a result of leveling. This reality combined with the gameplay information apparatus aka youtube guides makes leveling a pointless timesink.
Well, many argue gaming falls into the category of pointless time sink, I disagree but that is because I have a fundamentally different view on what is pointless. For you it is pointless, for many of us arguing its nice, that's really all there is to it.
Good talk, everyone
You said you had an allergy, so I addressed that.
If you now want to ignore your own analogy of allergies to treenuts, sure, we can do that.
Yes, you will be served the course. And the following course will jot be served until all are ready for it.
If you chose to not partake in any one specific course, that is on you.
However, the remaining courses will not be altered just because of your decision to not fully participate in the 10 course meal.
Keep in mind though, if we were to try and accurately transfer what you are complaining about to a 10 course meal, you would be refusing to eat 9 out of the 10 courses, not just one.
If you were to say you didnt want to participate in one aspect of the game (crafting, as an example), this would be like skipping one course.
In both cases, that's fine - there should be enough left to still satisfy a reasonable person.
However, tiu saying you want to skip everything other than being a pirate is like you saying you want to only have course number 7, and expect it to be done in a way where it satisfies you on its own.
An allergy acts as an inciting incident. You can replace the word allergy with dislike the taste, hate the smell, walnuts personally harmed me as a child; it doesn't matter. In the restaurant example for leveling, i cannot go to any other course until i eat one specific one first. Like leveling itself I am locked out of participating in what I want because I don't want to eat one course.
There were plenty of people who played Archage specifically for the boat-based content. If that's the starting point for content in Ashes, there will be plenty of engaging activities to do around that.
You can not replace it with the word dislike. If you dont want the 10 course menu at the restaurant, dont order it.
Dont order it and then complain that it isnt what you want.
That is the point.
In this example you can replace it with whatever you want. It's a story element not reality.
The MMO graveyard is littered with the corpses of those who said the same thing.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/54436/remove-leveling-up-or-make-it-harder-and-fun
Theres maybe 5k (and that's pushing it) people who visit these forums once a week. That's not representative of the million+ people who will try this game on launch. If I cared about the devs reading my posts I engage with their twitter account. A significant portion of the daily content posts get direct interaction with the community manager.
I highly doubt they'll entirely remove leveling, but they can definitely make it less painful for those of us who're looking forward to Ashes for the longterm gameplay systems. [/quote]
If there is no leveling up, then the game has to implement something to prevent players to roll fast alts.
What do you suggest?
Why must players be prevented from rolling alts? Alts provide flexibility for solo, small group, large group, and raids.
Because I do not want players to be solo players in the mmo world. I want them to depend on each-other.
AoC has as design pillar this idea where players create micro communities and cannot obtain everything alone.
Rolling an alt doesn't mean you don't need other players. People are already in their own communities carried over from other games. That cat is already out of the bag.
Rolling an alt fast with the current design would allow the player to master more professions. How do you solve this problem?
It is possible to master up to two professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[6][5][7][3]
I'm surprised you didnt throw Steven quote at him
"THIS GAME ISNT FOR YOU"
What he's advocating isnt gonna happen or change. It's a horse with no legs and a troll being fed.
I assume you also want people to be master crafters almost immediately right? If you're being consistent. Because that's also just a levelling system, no different than the adventurer levels in principle. Input time and effort and get a higher level. It would completely kill the economy of the game if they do that of course.
Personally I want unlimited character progression (not player progression) since this is an MMORPG based on the pen and paper RPGs like Pathfinder, and that is a major part of the character's story in those.
Never-ending levels, preferably in horizontal levelling systems, where I can level up my class, my crafting my social origanizations, my freehold, my religion, maybe some day some master level type stuff. I want all the levelling, non-stop, forever. I never want to feel like I can't progress my character anymore in some way, be it combat, social stuff, or purely lore-based, because that is a core element of what the MMORPG genre is all about.
I doubt you can simultaneously craft two things at once. Guilds, both small and large will already funnel mats to whoever they deem their crafting accounts to be. Alts actually being able to craft without having to level only helps those who only want to engage in the crafting/economic game loop.
If the game is enjoyable for the player who asks for skill to matter less than time investment then your game is gonna have a few problems with player retention.
Its a story element in the restaurant example. You seemed unable to get around the word allergy. What is the purpose of leveling? It's not teaching anyone how to play the game. It's not a requirement to facilitate character customization. The sense of power progression can come from other sources. The warm fuzzy feeling you get can be achieved in other ways.
The funny part is everyone one of those successful MMOs has made leveling faster or gotten rid of parts of it entirely. WoWs newest expansion is praised for having a quick leveling experience. This lets people play the game how they want to.
Can you reformulate please? I don't understand your position here.
For me the crafting and economic loop is very important.
You may want to have a tank, dd and healer fast without leveling.
I say you should not be able to be master gathering, processing and crafting fast. I want the artisan leveling to be very long. Is this acceptable for you? If yes, then how do you ensure that players who roll and get 3 max characters fast will not also become proficient as artisans in different classes and professions?
Leveling should never be considered a time sink as long as it's fun and interesting, and if you're a part-time player, maybe you should consider being a vassal and supplement/help the players who are investing a lot of time in the game(not sure if that's how to mechanic is supposed to work). TBH, I'm sick of games where every player is the ultimate hero of the world, however how many million of them there are. I want a more realistic world where there are all sorts of characters at different levels, and the time invested in a game could be a great way to set those levels, I don't think a weekend only player should be rewarded the same as someone who invests a lot of time in the game. Maybe for once, I'd like to play a nobody and just exist in the virtual world exploring and making friends, struggling against a difficult hostile world, until eventually my fame starts to precede me and my character becomes a hero, not because it's what everybody does, but because I earned it.
As well, you might want a fast progression so that you don't have to spend so much time, but if that applies to everyone, some people are just going to devour it whole and before too long, the whole game is ruined because there's just no where else to go, too fast? Think about every persons experience. I could imagine some guy that can only log on during the weekend, he's a combat/crafter type that's only managed to make i halfway to max level while some people are already at max, he's made some friends and is part of a small guild making potions and swords which he sells, his friends help him level and escorting his caravans. Eventually, he reaches max level... that's kinda cool on it's own, and much more memorable than every single person racing to max. If the game is good, slow down, enjoy it.
I forgot the OP.
I hope AoC will not help players stay solo. I mean if they want to struggle, then it should be possible for them to level up. But to encourage playing solo by game design no. That would be against the main concept of AoC.
Mastering crafting should take dedication, and have a progression path associated with it that makes items with higher statistics , consumes less resources, has unique stats, etc. You should be able to engage with the crafting minigame itself (most likely a combo of Vanguard's minigame system and Archeage's labor points) for 15 min segments or hours at a time depending on your time constraints. Likewise, gathering should have the same thing. In both of these systems you are actively playing the game how you want to play it and engaging with the larger world how you want to.
Guilds will have max level crafters within weeks of hitting the level cap unless its time-gated. If not the alt scenario you propose doesn't matter because the unique specialty you seek will be nullified by the abilities of guilds to brute force through it.