None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area.
If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me.
It sounds to me like you just want maximum efficiency, without putting the effort in to achieve that.
Fun fact, while it may be true that high levels will dominate lower level content if it is profitable for them to do so, if you remove the need to gain levels, if you remove that time investment, players will dominate all content. At that point, there is nothing stopping anyone from dominating any content.
The thing with genesis that the setup is as important as the payoff. A game that is all payoff and no setup is a game with a very short lifespan.
Most people prefer working towards a goal and then achieving said goal, rather than just having that reward handed to them. The reward is more appreciated and more enjoyed when it is worked for. The more it is worked for, the more it is enjoyed.
If you want to be a pirate in Ashes, work towards being a pirate in Ashes. You'll enjoy it more if you put that effort in.
I don't need to eat a bowl of feces to appreciate a perfectly cooked/seasoned meal.
Oh, you want to do a food analogy?
An MMO is like a restaurant's degustation menu. Its 10 courses, and each course is designed to be a part of the meal as a whole. Each course builds on the previous course in some way.
What you are saying here is that you want to go to a restaurant, order the degustation menu, but you only plan to eat one of the ten courses - and you expect to be satisfied by that.
If all you want is one plate of food, order that plate of food off of the a la carte menu. That menu is designed to satisfy people with individual dishes.
In terms of our discussion here, the a la carte menu would be other individual games. If you want to play a game to just be a pirate, dont play a game where being a pirate is about 2% of the whole and expect to be satisfied.
Rather, go play Sea of Thieves or something. Or learn to accept the rest of the game.
I'm allergic to tree nuts. The third item on your ten-course meal has tree nuts in it. Must I partake in this item to continue progressing in the "experience"?
What you consider what percentage of a game is irrelevant as what you want is different than what others want. MMOs thrive when players with a variety of playstyles come together to partake in a shared world.
If you have an allergy, we can work with that.
If you just have a dislike of treenuts, however, try that course anyway.
You are not allergic to grinding, you just dont like it.
What you consider what percentage of a game is irrelevant as what you want is different than what others want. MMOs thrive when players with a variety of playstyles come together to partake in a shared world.
And we round out our topic with the OP solving their issue all by themselves
Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant time sink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling time sink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way.
Min/Maxing is fun because you know what min/max isn't. If you played AOC with everything you want for your character exactly how you wanted it within the game mechanics, you would have no idea how to create what you want, because you would have no clue what you didn't want. Leveling teaches you that.
Not to mention all of the other things like, leveling is preferred by many because it allows for someone to show off their character as well as their skill instead of just their skill, and the heroes journey, and the reward is the journey, all of that good stuff.
If your argument is "I can just pick what I like by reading the spells" then well take a fireball and a ice shard. Even if the game tells you the flat damage and range are the same, things like cast time, pen and what enemy type play a role in your preference between the two. Not only that, who you commonly play with (Ashes is balanced around 8v8 not 1v1) and the zones you typically play in (weather influences abilities) will all determine what lineup of spells you want at the end of the day.
Finally if your argument is "If I have access to the entire list then I can just use each until I find my favorite" well welcome to leveling
Leveling doesn't teach any of that. Using WoW as an example, how many players in 2005 could play their character to any modicum of a degree once they reached level cap. The difference in skill level (talent build, gear choices, APM) between the Classic community and the Vanilla community illustrates that leveling does not teach anything.
As for the journey aspect, let players decide their own journey. Leveling hinders the ability for players to decide how and where they want to exist in a virtual world.
Also you kind of glazed over my point, if your just given everything right away you have no way to min/max cause you won't understand the game, and leveling, effectively distributes the players time between learning their character and experiencing a hopefully content rich world
I didn't gloss over your point at all. Devil May Cry has a significantly more complex combat system, and introduces its mechanics over the course of 10 hours. The question is is leveling for 45 days an effective means of teaching a game? Using other games as an example, it is not.
None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area.
If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me.
It sounds to me like you just want maximum efficiency, without putting the effort in to achieve that.
Fun fact, while it may be true that high levels will dominate lower level content if it is profitable for them to do so, if you remove the need to gain levels, if you remove that time investment, players will dominate all content. At that point, there is nothing stopping anyone from dominating any content.
The thing with genesis that the setup is as important as the payoff. A game that is all payoff and no setup is a game with a very short lifespan.
Most people prefer working towards a goal and then achieving said goal, rather than just having that reward handed to them. The reward is more appreciated and more enjoyed when it is worked for. The more it is worked for, the more it is enjoyed.
If you want to be a pirate in Ashes, work towards being a pirate in Ashes. You'll enjoy it more if you put that effort in.
I don't need to eat a bowl of feces to appreciate a perfectly cooked/seasoned meal.
Oh, you want to do a food analogy?
An MMO is like a restaurant's degustation menu. Its 10 courses, and each course is designed to be a part of the meal as a whole. Each course builds on the previous course in some way.
What you are saying here is that you want to go to a restaurant, order the degustation menu, but you only plan to eat one of the ten courses - and you expect to be satisfied by that.
If all you want is one plate of food, order that plate of food off of the a la carte menu. That menu is designed to satisfy people with individual dishes.
In terms of our discussion here, the a la carte menu would be other individual games. If you want to play a game to just be a pirate, dont play a game where being a pirate is about 2% of the whole and expect to be satisfied.
Rather, go play Sea of Thieves or something. Or learn to accept the rest of the game.
I'm allergic to tree nuts. The third item on your ten-course meal has tree nuts in it. Must I partake in this item to continue progressing in the "experience"?
What you consider what percentage of a game is irrelevant as what you want is different than what others want. MMOs thrive when players with a variety of playstyles come together to partake in a shared world.
If you have an allergy, we can work with that.
If you just have a dislike of treenuts, however, try that course anyway.
You are not allergic to grinding, you just dont like it.
What you consider what percentage of a game is irrelevant as what you want is different than what others want. MMOs thrive when players with a variety of playstyles come together to partake in a shared world.
And we round out our topic with the OP solving their issue all by themselves
The difference is I am forced to partake in your area, you are not forced into mine. Having some form of casual content that replaces leveling is essential, but no one should be forced to do it to get to what they want.
None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area.
If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me.
It sounds to me like you just want maximum efficiency, without putting the effort in to achieve that.
Fun fact, while it may be true that high levels will dominate lower level content if it is profitable for them to do so, if you remove the need to gain levels, if you remove that time investment, players will dominate all content. At that point, there is nothing stopping anyone from dominating any content.
The thing with genesis that the setup is as important as the payoff. A game that is all payoff and no setup is a game with a very short lifespan.
Most people prefer working towards a goal and then achieving said goal, rather than just having that reward handed to them. The reward is more appreciated and more enjoyed when it is worked for. The more it is worked for, the more it is enjoyed.
If you want to be a pirate in Ashes, work towards being a pirate in Ashes. You'll enjoy it more if you put that effort in.
I don't need to eat a bowl of feces to appreciate a perfectly cooked/seasoned meal.
Oh, you want to do a food analogy?
An MMO is like a restaurant's degustation menu. Its 10 courses, and each course is designed to be a part of the meal as a whole. Each course builds on the previous course in some way.
What you are saying here is that you want to go to a restaurant, order the degustation menu, but you only plan to eat one of the ten courses - and you expect to be satisfied by that.
If all you want is one plate of food, order that plate of food off of the a la carte menu. That menu is designed to satisfy people with individual dishes.
In terms of our discussion here, the a la carte menu would be other individual games. If you want to play a game to just be a pirate, dont play a game where being a pirate is about 2% of the whole and expect to be satisfied.
Rather, go play Sea of Thieves or something. Or learn to accept the rest of the game.
I'm allergic to tree nuts. The third item on your ten-course meal has tree nuts in it. Must I partake in this item to continue progressing in the "experience"?
What you consider what percentage of a game is irrelevant as what you want is different than what others want. MMOs thrive when players with a variety of playstyles come together to partake in a shared world.
If you have an allergy, we can work with that.
If you just have a dislike of treenuts, however, try that course anyway.
You are not allergic to grinding, you just dont like it.
You didn't answer the question. Must I partake in the third course in order to move on to the fourth?
Also you kind of glazed over my point, if your just given everything right away you have no way to min/max cause you won't understand the game, and leveling, effectively distributes the players time between learning their character and experiencing a hopefully content rich world
I didn't gloss over your point at all. Devil May Cry has a significantly more complex combat system, and introduces its mechanics over the course of 10 hours. The question is is leveling for 45 days an effective means of teaching a game? Using other games as an example, it is not.
Then you missed it, so use your own point instead "What you consider what percentage of a game is irrelevant as what you want is different than what others want. MMOs thrive when players with a variety of playstyles come together to partake in a shared world."
That variety? That is what makes this an MMO. Leveling? That is part of the variety, im not arguing that mindlessly killing mobs is what you should do... but it almost never is, is it? AOC for example says PVP and PVE will generate experience, combined with node progression, caravans and other things, those are all part of that variety, your requesting that variety be removed so that you can experience the tiny sliver of variety you want, but that's not an MMO, honestly Noanni's analogy was spot on.
Also you kind of glazed over my point, if your just given everything right away you have no way to min/max cause you won't understand the game, and leveling, effectively distributes the players time between learning their character and experiencing a hopefully content rich world
I didn't gloss over your point at all. Devil May Cry has a significantly more complex combat system, and introduces its mechanics over the course of 10 hours. The question is is leveling for 45 days an effective means of teaching a game? Using other games as an example, it is not.
Then you missed it, so use your own point instead "What you consider what percentage of a game is irrelevant as what you want is different than what others want. MMOs thrive when players with a variety of playstyles come together to partake in a shared world."
That variety? That is what makes this an MMO. Leveling? That is part of the variety, im not arguing that mindlessly killing mobs is what you should do... but it almost never is, is it? AOC for example says PVP and PVE will generate experience, combined with node progression, caravans and other things, those are all part of that variety, your requesting that variety be removed so that you can experience the tiny sliver of variety you want, but that's not an MMO, honestly Noanni's analogy was spot on.
Leveling locks out that variety behind a time sink. There needs to be casual content that replaces leveling, but locking the ability to effectively partake in the endgame systems isn't fun. What you call a tiny sliver, I call a smorgasbord.
Alright, all I've gathered from this is "I don't like spending time leveling a character so the game should change for me".
I never said the game should change for me. I said it isn't fun being ineffective in a game for a set amount of time because DND has a leveling system and that aspect of RPGs has been carried over into mainstream games for the past four decades.
The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition? I've heard many players from a variety of skill levels across multiple decades express this system isn't fun. You can invest millions into storylines, voice actors, unique art, and enjoyable playspaces, but all the makeup in the world won't make a pig anything but that.
You'd still have progression in a horizontal game design. Weapon skills, active abilities, crafting tiers, gathering tiers, pet tiers, mount tiers etc.
There is nothing wrong with a vertical progression pathway. The only issue with vertical progression is when power increases and levels can no longer be catered to much like Blizzard realised before the level cap drop.
Alright, all I've gathered from this is "I don't like spending time leveling a character so the game should change for me".
The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition?
That's mostly subjective. I find leveling immensely fun. I even like min/maxing characters in different level brackets for pvp like twinking in classic WoW. I love the feeling of accomplishment having several max level characters knowing that not everyone will achieve that. Its just as relevant and fun as upgrading gear, but with levels you are upgrading the character itself.
You'd still have progression in a horizontal game design. Weapon skills, active abilities, crafting tiers, gathering tiers, pet tiers, mount tiers etc.
There is nothing wrong with a vertical progression pathway. The only issue with vertical progression is when power increases and levels can no longer be catered to much like Blizzard realised before the level cap drop.
Horizontal progression is great for a wide variety of reasons. The issue with verticle progression is your time spent is inconsequential until you've completed it. Content can either be balanced around having completed said verticle progression meaning its at best widely inefficient to do before or balanced around noncompletition of verticle progression meaning its faceroll after. These imbalances aren't fun for players and are a waste of time/money for the development team.
Vertical progression is the only part of AoC I consider to be a WoW Clone. Though WoW copied others first. I would have preferred an SWG pre combat upgrade 2 variation but at least we got SWG crafting.
The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition? I've heard many players from a variety of skill levels across multiple decades express this system isn't fun. You can invest millions into storylines, voice actors, unique art, and enjoyable playspaces, but all the makeup in the world won't make a pig anything but that.
And all those who find this kind of system unfun now have the session-based games. And yet all the rpgs still sell just fine, because they have their audience who likes them exactly the way they are and have been.
Leveling locks out that variety behind a time sink. There needs to be casual content that replaces leveling, but locking the ability to effectively partake in the endgame systems isn't fun. What you call a tiny sliver, I call a smorgasbord.
Only those who have invested enough time into something can partake in the peak content of that something. Levels are just a representation of that invested time.
Like I said before, you can be a pirate w/o leveling up to max, but those who have leveled up to max (and invested way more time in the game to do that) will be much stronger than you. In other words you'll be a casual and they'll be the hardcore players. And your casual place is at the bottom of the ocean, because your ship got sunk by a stronger foe.
I'm sure that it takes a ton of time for a group of new Sea of Thieves players to start playing "perfectly" together as a proper group. And that's not counting all the years of prior shooter practice that they've most likely had. AoC will make you play in a group of 8 players, who'll have to learn all their abilities and spells perfectly, all their synergies and combos perfectly, learn all the details and intricacies of character control - then add that all together and learn how to play as an 8-man group who moves like a single unit. Once they learn that, they'll need to then find a guild who'll accept them and then learn to play with that guild.
I'd imagine that for the majority of people that would take the 45 days of 4-6h of gameplay that Intrepid are shooting for. Even if for some dumb reason Intrepid literally gave you a ready character that you don't need to build up - you'd still need to spend all that time to learn how to play the game. It's just that, instead of doing that Intrepid decided not to reinvent the wheel for the hundreds time and just stick to a good ol' well-tested leveling design.
Though again, we've heard no real info on how ship combat will work, so you literally have no clue whether you'd even need to get to max lvl in order to become a successful pirate.
Alright, all I've gathered from this is "I don't like spending time leveling a character so the game should change for me".
The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition?
That's mostly subjective. I find leveling immensely fun. I even like min/maxing characters in different level brackets for pvp like twinking in classic WoW. I love the feeling of accomplishment having several max level characters knowing that not everyone will achieve that. Its just as relevant and fun as upgrading gear, but with levels you are upgrading the character itself.
The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels.
The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition? I've heard many players from a variety of skill levels across multiple decades express this system isn't fun. You can invest millions into storylines, voice actors, unique art, and enjoyable playspaces, but all the makeup in the world won't make a pig anything but that.
And all those who find this kind of system unfun now have the session-based games. And yet all the rpgs still sell just fine, because they have their audience who likes them exactly the way they are and have been.
Leveling locks out that variety behind a time sink. There needs to be casual content that replaces leveling, but locking the ability to effectively partake in the endgame systems isn't fun. What you call a tiny sliver, I call a smorgasbord.
Only those who have invested enough time into something can partake in the peak content of that something. Levels are just a representation of that invested time.
Like I said before, you can be a pirate w/o leveling up to max, but those who have leveled up to max (and invested way more time in the game to do that) will be much stronger than you. In other words you'll be a casual and they'll be the hardcore players. And your casual place is at the bottom of the ocean, because your ship got sunk by a stronger foe.
I'm sure that it takes a ton of time for a group of new Sea of Thieves players to start playing "perfectly" together as a proper group. And that's not counting all the years of prior shooter practice that they've most likely had. AoC will make you play in a group of 8 players, who'll have to learn all their abilities and spells perfectly, all their synergies and combos perfectly, learn all the details and intricacies of character control - then add that all together and learn how to play as an 8-man group who moves like a single unit. Once they learn that, they'll need to then find a guild who'll accept them and then learn to play with that guild.
I'd imagine that for the majority of people that would take the 45 days of 4-6h of gameplay that Intrepid are shooting for. Even if for some dumb reason Intrepid literally gave you a ready character that you don't need to build up - you'd still need to spend all that time to learn how to play the game. It's just that, instead of doing that Intrepid decided not to reinvent the wheel for the hundreds time and just stick to a good ol' well-tested leveling design.
Though again, we've heard no real info on how ship combat will work, so you literally have no clue whether you'd even need to get to max lvl in order to become a successful pirate.
Which RPGs sell well? Are they single player games or are they MMOs? What is the leveling time for said game and how long is the story-based campaign for it?
Are you advocating for time to win? The most common complaint about FFXIV is the need to complete the story content. Crowfall was also a TTW game, how'd that go for them?
I'm sure there is a time investment to play perfectly in Sea of Thieves. However, we could both jump into the game and within a few hours have fun playing together with a statistical chance of beating those who've played for years.
Does leveling effectively teach you how to play the game? How many people who leveled in Vanilla WoW circa 2005 knew how to play their character compared to what's achievable in Classic?
I like how this thread bring out from us how much we love mmorpgs
Except for obviously KingDDD. They fucking hate their guts
You advocate for time to win gameplay. I have a feeling that the vast majority of players on this forum, let alone those who play games, wouldn't agree with this.
Alright, all I've gathered from this is "I don't like spending time leveling a character so the game should change for me".
The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition?
That's mostly subjective. I find leveling immensely fun. I even like min/maxing characters in different level brackets for pvp like twinking in classic WoW. I love the feeling of accomplishment having several max level characters knowing that not everyone will achieve that. Its just as relevant and fun as upgrading gear, but with levels you are upgrading the character itself.
The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels.
You say that like its a bad thing. I love the feeling of running into content that is too high level for me because it gives me something to set a goal to clear once I overcome the lower level content. I have zero need or desire to have the ability to do anything and everything all at once, THAT is bad design for an MMORPG.
The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels.
It only took you three (3) pages of self-defense and replies to finally give an example of how you would prefer to level, @KingDDD.
Kudos.
Now, stand by your words ... because Ashes will definitely have XP gain and leveling through questing/exploration.
Just remember that (per Steven Sharif) it's still going to be approximately 225 hours of leveling to get a max character. That's not changing.
I saw that you carefully avoided @Nikr's question about having a max level character "given to you on a silver platter".
Every player in Ashes will be spending those 225 hours leveling. There will be no exemptions.
However, every player certainly has a say in what kind of content they will personally be doing during that time (to get to max level).
The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels.
so uhm the augment system that is already planned in AOC, whew glad we cleared this one up... again
Which RPGs sell well? Are they single player games or are they MMOs? What is the leveling time for said game and how long is the story-based campaign for it?
Just rpgs in general. Don't think I've heard of many rpgs where you didn't have a leveling system of some kind. Genshin has several leveling systems, pretty much all based not only on tedious grind, but also on timegates. That game makes over a $billion every 6 months (or at least did on release) and is ultra popular. NW had both vertical and artisanal grind. The game had a mil players on release even after a very weak beta.
Lost Ark is probably the closest thing to what you want, but from pretty much every place I've seen discussing it, its "leveling time" was a meme due to how short it was. Oh, that also led to literal fucking hundreds of thousands of bots, exactly because you could level to max within a few hours and could then participate in top lvl content immediately. Though even that game just moved their insane grind to those max lvls, so functionally nothing changed.
Are you advocating for time to win? The most common complaint about FFXIV is the need to complete the story content. Crowfall was also a TTW game, how'd that go for them?
FF14 is a story-based rpg, so of course the game would require you to finish the story asap. But afaik there's a ton of stuff that you can do even w/o doing the story. When I tried the game out I got stuck on the damn Gold Saucer for several days, just because it was fun.
And if by "time to win" you mean that in order to be better than others you must have invested more time into the game, be it in the form of skill-honing or leveling (which is still skill-honing) - then yes, I want games to not fucking give everyone everything right at the first hour of the game.
I'm sure there is a time investment to play perfectly in Sea of Thieves. However, we could both jump into the game and within a few hours have fun playing together with a statistical chance of beating those who've played for years.
Which is exactly why the session-based games exist. You can play them casually at a moment's notice or you can go full hardcore on them. Also, as I said in my comment, you wouldn't really be able to win against hardcore players unless you had years of fps practice. And outside of pure fps skills, ya ain't sinking a ship of a well-trained group of players if you yourself have only played for a few hours. I know that because I've tried many times and failed and then when I got better I started failing way less and understood how a very good group of people could easily beat some casuals w/o breaking a sweat.
Does leveling effectively teach you how to play the game? How many people who leveled in Vanilla WoW circa 2005 knew how to play their character compared to what's achievable in Classic?
Leveling helps you ease into the game's mechanics. Others have already said that WoW had a shitty design when it came to how the game taught you to play, so this is a bad example. I expect AoC to provide a better learning experience through leveling and will be giving as much feedback pertaining to that as I can.
You advocate for time to win gameplay. I have a feeling that the vast majority of players on this forum, let alone those who play games, wouldn't agree with this.
Yet the absolute majority of answers here disagree with your "I want everything and I want it now, daddy" attitude.
Alright, all I've gathered from this is "I don't like spending time leveling a character so the game should change for me".
The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition?
That's mostly subjective. I find leveling immensely fun. I even like min/maxing characters in different level brackets for pvp like twinking in classic WoW. I love the feeling of accomplishment having several max level characters knowing that not everyone will achieve that. Its just as relevant and fun as upgrading gear, but with levels you are upgrading the character itself.
The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels.
You say that like its a bad thing. I love the feeling of running into content that is too high level for me because it gives me something to set a goal to clear once I overcome the lower level content. I have zero need or desire to have the ability to do anything and everything all at once, THAT is bad design for an MMORPG.
Its a bad thing if someone cannot do it because their character is statistically not powerful enough. Make the mechanics difficult not the formula. Being locked out of playing with friends is the anthesis of an MMO.
Alright, all I've gathered from this is "I don't like spending time leveling a character so the game should change for me".
The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition?
That's mostly subjective. I find leveling immensely fun. I even like min/maxing characters in different level brackets for pvp like twinking in classic WoW. I love the feeling of accomplishment having several max level characters knowing that not everyone will achieve that. Its just as relevant and fun as upgrading gear, but with levels you are upgrading the character itself.
The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels.
You say that like its a bad thing. I love the feeling of running into content that is too high level for me because it gives me something to set a goal to clear once I overcome the lower level content. I have zero need or desire to have the ability to do anything and everything all at once, THAT is bad design for an MMORPG.
Its a bad thing if someone cannot do it because their character is statistically not powerful enough. Make the mechanics difficult not the formula. Being locked out of playing with friends is the anthesis of an MMO.
level with friends...or make friends while leveling. Holy crap, the point of an MMORPG!
The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels.
It only took you three (3) pages of self-defense and replies to finally give an example of how you would prefer to level, @KingDDD.
Kudos.
Now, stand by your words ... because Ashes will definitely have XP gain and leveling through questing/exploration.
Just remember that (per Steven Sharif) it's still going to be approximately 225 hours of leveling to get a max character. That's not changing.
I saw that you carefully avoided @Nikr's question about having a max level character "given to you on a silver platter".
Every player in Ashes will be spending those 225 hours leveling. There will be no exemptions.
However, every player certainly has a say in what kind of content they will personally be doing during that time (to get to max level).
And whats accomplished in that 225 hour investment? If all you want is a gold star next to your name, I'm sure they'll add one to the cash shop.
The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels.
so uhm the augment system that is already planned in AOC, whew glad we cleared this one up... again
Why do I have to level if an additional, superior system is already planned for the game? What is leveling accomplishing?
Comments
If you have an allergy, we can work with that.
If you just have a dislike of treenuts, however, try that course anyway.
You are not allergic to grinding, you just dont like it.
And we round out our topic with the OP solving their issue all by themselves
I didn't gloss over your point at all. Devil May Cry has a significantly more complex combat system, and introduces its mechanics over the course of 10 hours. The question is is leveling for 45 days an effective means of teaching a game? Using other games as an example, it is not.
The difference is I am forced to partake in your area, you are not forced into mine. Having some form of casual content that replaces leveling is essential, but no one should be forced to do it to get to what they want.
You didn't answer the question. Must I partake in the third course in order to move on to the fourth?
Then you missed it, so use your own point instead "What you consider what percentage of a game is irrelevant as what you want is different than what others want. MMOs thrive when players with a variety of playstyles come together to partake in a shared world."
That variety? That is what makes this an MMO. Leveling? That is part of the variety, im not arguing that mindlessly killing mobs is what you should do... but it almost never is, is it? AOC for example says PVP and PVE will generate experience, combined with node progression, caravans and other things, those are all part of that variety, your requesting that variety be removed so that you can experience the tiny sliver of variety you want, but that's not an MMO, honestly Noanni's analogy was spot on.
Leveling locks out that variety behind a time sink. There needs to be casual content that replaces leveling, but locking the ability to effectively partake in the endgame systems isn't fun. What you call a tiny sliver, I call a smorgasbord.
I never said the game should change for me. I said it isn't fun being ineffective in a game for a set amount of time because DND has a leveling system and that aspect of RPGs has been carried over into mainstream games for the past four decades.
The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition? I've heard many players from a variety of skill levels across multiple decades express this system isn't fun. You can invest millions into storylines, voice actors, unique art, and enjoyable playspaces, but all the makeup in the world won't make a pig anything but that.
There is nothing wrong with a vertical progression pathway. The only issue with vertical progression is when power increases and levels can no longer be catered to much like Blizzard realised before the level cap drop.
That's mostly subjective. I find leveling immensely fun. I even like min/maxing characters in different level brackets for pvp like twinking in classic WoW. I love the feeling of accomplishment having several max level characters knowing that not everyone will achieve that. Its just as relevant and fun as upgrading gear, but with levels you are upgrading the character itself.
Horizontal progression is great for a wide variety of reasons. The issue with verticle progression is your time spent is inconsequential until you've completed it. Content can either be balanced around having completed said verticle progression meaning its at best widely inefficient to do before or balanced around noncompletition of verticle progression meaning its faceroll after. These imbalances aren't fun for players and are a waste of time/money for the development team.
Like I said before, you can be a pirate w/o leveling up to max, but those who have leveled up to max (and invested way more time in the game to do that) will be much stronger than you. In other words you'll be a casual and they'll be the hardcore players. And your casual place is at the bottom of the ocean, because your ship got sunk by a stronger foe.
I'm sure that it takes a ton of time for a group of new Sea of Thieves players to start playing "perfectly" together as a proper group. And that's not counting all the years of prior shooter practice that they've most likely had. AoC will make you play in a group of 8 players, who'll have to learn all their abilities and spells perfectly, all their synergies and combos perfectly, learn all the details and intricacies of character control - then add that all together and learn how to play as an 8-man group who moves like a single unit. Once they learn that, they'll need to then find a guild who'll accept them and then learn to play with that guild.
I'd imagine that for the majority of people that would take the 45 days of 4-6h of gameplay that Intrepid are shooting for. Even if for some dumb reason Intrepid literally gave you a ready character that you don't need to build up - you'd still need to spend all that time to learn how to play the game. It's just that, instead of doing that Intrepid decided not to reinvent the wheel for the hundreds time and just stick to a good ol' well-tested leveling design.
Though again, we've heard no real info on how ship combat will work, so you literally have no clue whether you'd even need to get to max lvl in order to become a successful pirate.
The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels.
Which RPGs sell well? Are they single player games or are they MMOs? What is the leveling time for said game and how long is the story-based campaign for it?
Are you advocating for time to win? The most common complaint about FFXIV is the need to complete the story content. Crowfall was also a TTW game, how'd that go for them?
I'm sure there is a time investment to play perfectly in Sea of Thieves. However, we could both jump into the game and within a few hours have fun playing together with a statistical chance of beating those who've played for years.
Does leveling effectively teach you how to play the game? How many people who leveled in Vanilla WoW circa 2005 knew how to play their character compared to what's achievable in Classic?
You advocate for time to win gameplay. I have a feeling that the vast majority of players on this forum, let alone those who play games, wouldn't agree with this.
You say that like its a bad thing. I love the feeling of running into content that is too high level for me because it gives me something to set a goal to clear once I overcome the lower level content. I have zero need or desire to have the ability to do anything and everything all at once, THAT is bad design for an MMORPG.
It only took you three (3) pages of self-defense and replies to finally give an example of how you would prefer to level, @KingDDD.
Kudos.
Now, stand by your words ... because Ashes will definitely have XP gain and leveling through questing/exploration.
Just remember that (per Steven Sharif) it's still going to be approximately 225 hours of leveling to get a max character. That's not changing.
I saw that you carefully avoided @Nikr's question about having a max level character "given to you on a silver platter".
Every player in Ashes will be spending those 225 hours leveling. There will be no exemptions.
However, every player certainly has a say in what kind of content they will personally be doing during that time (to get to max level).
so uhm the augment system that is already planned in AOC, whew glad we cleared this one up... again
Lost Ark is probably the closest thing to what you want, but from pretty much every place I've seen discussing it, its "leveling time" was a meme due to how short it was. Oh, that also led to literal fucking hundreds of thousands of bots, exactly because you could level to max within a few hours and could then participate in top lvl content immediately. Though even that game just moved their insane grind to those max lvls, so functionally nothing changed. FF14 is a story-based rpg, so of course the game would require you to finish the story asap. But afaik there's a ton of stuff that you can do even w/o doing the story. When I tried the game out I got stuck on the damn Gold Saucer for several days, just because it was fun.
And if by "time to win" you mean that in order to be better than others you must have invested more time into the game, be it in the form of skill-honing or leveling (which is still skill-honing) - then yes, I want games to not fucking give everyone everything right at the first hour of the game. Which is exactly why the session-based games exist. You can play them casually at a moment's notice or you can go full hardcore on them. Also, as I said in my comment, you wouldn't really be able to win against hardcore players unless you had years of fps practice. And outside of pure fps skills, ya ain't sinking a ship of a well-trained group of players if you yourself have only played for a few hours. I know that because I've tried many times and failed and then when I got better I started failing way less and understood how a very good group of people could easily beat some casuals w/o breaking a sweat. Leveling helps you ease into the game's mechanics. Others have already said that WoW had a shitty design when it came to how the game taught you to play, so this is a bad example. I expect AoC to provide a better learning experience through leveling and will be giving as much feedback pertaining to that as I can.
Its a bad thing if someone cannot do it because their character is statistically not powerful enough. Make the mechanics difficult not the formula. Being locked out of playing with friends is the anthesis of an MMO.
level with friends...or make friends while leveling. Holy crap, the point of an MMORPG!
And whats accomplished in that 225 hour investment? If all you want is a gold star next to your name, I'm sure they'll add one to the cash shop.
Why do I have to level if an additional, superior system is already planned for the game? What is leveling accomplishing?