Well I suppose the positive of this post shows which(leveling or not leveling) is the preferred majority in this community.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
Theres maybe 5k (and that's pushing it) people who visit these forums once a week. That's not representative of the million+ people who will try this game on launch. If I cared about the devs reading my posts I engage with their twitter account. A significant portion of the daily content posts get direct interaction with the community manager.
I highly doubt they'll entirely remove leveling, but they can definitely make it less painful for those of us who're looking forward to Ashes for the longterm gameplay systems.
If there is no leveling up, then the game has to implement something to prevent players to roll fast alts.
What do you suggest?
Why must players be prevented from rolling alts? Alts provide flexibility for solo, small group, large group, and raids.
Because I do not want players to be solo players in the mmo world. I want them to depend on each-other.
AoC has as design pillar this idea where players create micro communities and cannot obtain everything alone.
Rolling an alt doesn't mean you don't need other players. People are already in their own communities carried over from other games. That cat is already out of the bag.
Rolling an alt fast with the current design would allow the player to master more professions. How do you solve this problem? It is possible to master up to two professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[6][5][7][3]
I doubt you can simultaneously craft two things at once. Guilds, both small and large will already funnel mats to whoever they deem their crafting accounts to be. Alts actually being able to craft without having to level only helps those who only want to engage in the crafting/economic game loop.
Can you reformulate please? I don't understand your position here.
For me the crafting and economic loop is very important.
You may want to have a tank, dd and healer fast without leveling.
I say you should not be able to be master gathering, processing and crafting fast. I want the artisan leveling to be very long. Is this acceptable for you? If yes, then how do you ensure that players who roll and get 3 max characters fast will not also become proficient as artisans in different classes and professions?
Mastering crafting should take dedication, and have a progression path associated with it that makes items with higher statistics , consumes less resources, has unique stats, etc. You should be able to engage with the crafting minigame itself (most likely a combo of Vanguard's minigame system and Archeage's labor points) for 15 min segments or hours at a time depending on your time constraints. Likewise, gathering should have the same thing. In both of these systems you are actively playing the game how you want to play it and engaging with the larger world how you want to.
Guilds will have max level crafters within weeks of hitting the level cap unless its time-gated. If not the alt scenario you propose doesn't matter because the unique specialty you seek will be nullified by the abilities of guilds to brute force through it.
What is your opinion about the corruption mechanic?
Some players hate the corrupted ones. Should it be easier to roll a new character rather than clean the corruption?
How will players recognize each other if they can appear every weekend with a new max level character?
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
Solo play should be viable too. Not everyone has as much spare time as me in my communities and I don't want to be sat twiddling my thumbs while I wait for people to log in.
You will defend the node against NPCs until people arrive home.
Maybe do some caravans too while the server is empty.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way.
Leveling should never be considered a time sink as long as it's fun and interesting, and if you're a part-time player, maybe you should consider being a vassal and supplement/help the players who are investing a lot of time in the game(not sure if that's how to mechanic is supposed to work). TBH, I'm sick of games where every player is the ultimate hero of the world, however how many million of them there are. I want a more realistic world where there are all sorts of characters at different levels, and the time invested in a game could be a great way to set those levels, I don't think a weekend only player should be rewarded the same as someone who invests a lot of time in the game. Maybe for once, I'd like to play a nobody and just exist in the virtual world exploring and making friends, struggling against a difficult hostile world, until eventually my fame starts to precede me and my character becomes a hero, not because it's what everybody does, but because I earned it.
As well, you might want a fast progression so that you don't have to spend so much time, but if that applies to everyone, some people are just going to devour it whole and before too long, the whole game is ruined because there's just no where else to go, too fast? Think about every persons experience. I could imagine some guy that can only log on during the weekend, he's a combat/crafter type that's only managed to make i halfway to max level while some people are already at max, he's made some friends and is part of a small guild making potions and swords which he sells, his friends help him level and escorting his caravans. Eventually, he reaches max level... that's kinda cool on it's own, and much more memorable than every single person racing to max. If the game is good, slow down, enjoy it.
In your scenario the guys caravan is ambushed by high level players. The enemy rogue instantly one shots him from stealth. The bandits pick his team apart because they know where they are, and have a predetermined kill plan. Rogue proceeds to tbag the lowbie because a oneshot on someone always deserves a good old fashioned tbag. This happens to his caravans multiple times.
His friends resent him because he has to be carried, putting them at a significant disadvantage and ultimately causes their gear to break. He resents the game because of the excessive tbagging and an unwinnable situation. What is the player retention rate for this player and the many like him?
Well I suppose the positive of this post shows which(leveling or not leveling) is the preferred majority in this community.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
Theres maybe 5k (and that's pushing it) people who visit these forums once a week. That's not representative of the million+ people who will try this game on launch. If I cared about the devs reading my posts I engage with their twitter account. A significant portion of the daily content posts get direct interaction with the community manager.
I highly doubt they'll entirely remove leveling, but they can definitely make it less painful for those of us who're looking forward to Ashes for the longterm gameplay systems.
If there is no leveling up, then the game has to implement something to prevent players to roll fast alts.
What do you suggest?
Why must players be prevented from rolling alts? Alts provide flexibility for solo, small group, large group, and raids.
Because I do not want players to be solo players in the mmo world. I want them to depend on each-other.
AoC has as design pillar this idea where players create micro communities and cannot obtain everything alone.
Rolling an alt doesn't mean you don't need other players. People are already in their own communities carried over from other games. That cat is already out of the bag.
Rolling an alt fast with the current design would allow the player to master more professions. How do you solve this problem? It is possible to master up to two professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[6][5][7][3]
I doubt you can simultaneously craft two things at once. Guilds, both small and large will already funnel mats to whoever they deem their crafting accounts to be. Alts actually being able to craft without having to level only helps those who only want to engage in the crafting/economic game loop.
Can you reformulate please? I don't understand your position here.
For me the crafting and economic loop is very important.
You may want to have a tank, dd and healer fast without leveling.
I say you should not be able to be master gathering, processing and crafting fast. I want the artisan leveling to be very long. Is this acceptable for you? If yes, then how do you ensure that players who roll and get 3 max characters fast will not also become proficient as artisans in different classes and professions?
Mastering crafting should take dedication, and have a progression path associated with it that makes items with higher statistics , consumes less resources, has unique stats, etc. You should be able to engage with the crafting minigame itself (most likely a combo of Vanguard's minigame system and Archeage's labor points) for 15 min segments or hours at a time depending on your time constraints. Likewise, gathering should have the same thing. In both of these systems you are actively playing the game how you want to play it and engaging with the larger world how you want to.
Guilds will have max level crafters within weeks of hitting the level cap unless its time-gated. If not the alt scenario you propose doesn't matter because the unique specialty you seek will be nullified by the abilities of guilds to brute force through it.
What is your opinion about the corruption mechanic?
Some players hate the corrupted ones. Should it be easier to roll a new character rather than clean the corruption?
How will players recognize each other if they can appear every weekend with a new max level character?
Corruption should be easy to wipe if infrequent and against players who statistically have a chance to win. I'd like to see mayors have the ability twist the values on what that means for their own respective nodes.
Players should be recognized if they want to be recognized. Subterfuge should play a central role in the development of node alliances, and their inevitable betrayal.
Well I suppose the positive of this post shows which(leveling or not leveling) is the preferred majority in this community.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
Theres maybe 5k (and that's pushing it) people who visit these forums once a week. That's not representative of the million+ people who will try this game on launch. If I cared about the devs reading my posts I engage with their twitter account. A significant portion of the daily content posts get direct interaction with the community manager.
I highly doubt they'll entirely remove leveling, but they can definitely make it less painful for those of us who're looking forward to Ashes for the longterm gameplay systems.
If there is no leveling up, then the game has to implement something to prevent players to roll fast alts.
What do you suggest?
Why must players be prevented from rolling alts? Alts provide flexibility for solo, small group, large group, and raids.
Because I do not want players to be solo players in the mmo world. I want them to depend on each-other.
AoC has as design pillar this idea where players create micro communities and cannot obtain everything alone.
Rolling an alt doesn't mean you don't need other players. People are already in their own communities carried over from other games. That cat is already out of the bag.
Rolling an alt fast with the current design would allow the player to master more professions. How do you solve this problem? It is possible to master up to two professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[6][5][7][3]
I doubt you can simultaneously craft two things at once. Guilds, both small and large will already funnel mats to whoever they deem their crafting accounts to be. Alts actually being able to craft without having to level only helps those who only want to engage in the crafting/economic game loop.
Can you reformulate please? I don't understand your position here.
For me the crafting and economic loop is very important.
You may want to have a tank, dd and healer fast without leveling.
I say you should not be able to be master gathering, processing and crafting fast. I want the artisan leveling to be very long. Is this acceptable for you? If yes, then how do you ensure that players who roll and get 3 max characters fast will not also become proficient as artisans in different classes and professions?
Mastering crafting should take dedication, and have a progression path associated with it that makes items with higher statistics , consumes less resources, has unique stats, etc. You should be able to engage with the crafting minigame itself (most likely a combo of Vanguard's minigame system and Archeage's labor points) for 15 min segments or hours at a time depending on your time constraints. Likewise, gathering should have the same thing. In both of these systems you are actively playing the game how you want to play it and engaging with the larger world how you want to.
Guilds will have max level crafters within weeks of hitting the level cap unless its time-gated. If not the alt scenario you propose doesn't matter because the unique specialty you seek will be nullified by the abilities of guilds to brute force through it.
What is your opinion about the corruption mechanic?
Some players hate the corrupted ones. Should it be easier to roll a new character rather than clean the corruption?
How will players recognize each other if they can appear every weekend with a new max level character?
Corruption should be easy to wipe if infrequent and against players who statistically have a chance to win. I'd like to see mayors have the ability twist the values on what that means for their own respective nodes.
Players should be recognized if they want to be recognized. Subterfuge should play a central role in the development of node alliances, and their inevitable betrayal.
I think your vision would work too but would not ensure player retention as you said.
Your argument is
Ok, I think I'm done with this thread. It was pointless from the start and it kept being pointless throughout. Levels won't go away, people who like rpgs will keep liking rpgs, the sun might or might not come up tomorrow.
Good talk, everyone
I'm surprised you didnt throw Steven quote at him
"THIS GAME ISNT FOR YOU"
What he's advocating isnt gonna happen or change. It's a horse with no legs and a troll being fed.
If the game is enjoyable for the player who asks for skill to matter less than time investment then your game is gonna have a few problems with player retention.
If players get the skills fast they may still leave fast, as soon as they see that the game loop is not as they want it to be.
Also if the game would not require time sink, player's presence in the world could be reduced. Such players would play multiple MMOs at the same time and spend more time on the servers which require a time sink.
They would not build an emotional connection with the world of this game.
Why would players stay online on the server?
Why would care to defend the node during a siege or prevent the sieges in the first place?
Would it be acceptable if the player skills depend more on gear and in what state that gear is and on buildings your node and parent nodes have?
Because resources will be scarce. Getting high level gear fast will not be possible and while a node can reach metropolis level fast, developing the buildings inside it will actually take a long time.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way.
Grinding level CAN be fun. If loot/currency is involved, if it's challenging and rewarding, , if you can aggro a lot of them at the same time, if you can lure them in traps, if you can team grind, other things can make it fun
"As part of our ideals as a game we're not going to give boosts away. We're not going to auto-level up a character. You have to spend time acclimating yourself to what this game is, to what the world that you're part of is; and that's an investment- a time investment; and that plays towards our ideas of risk-versus-reward; and I've always said our game's not going to be for everybody and that's okay."[9] – Steven Sharif
Well I suppose the positive of this post shows which(leveling or not leveling) is the preferred majority in this community.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
Theres maybe 5k (and that's pushing it) people who visit these forums once a week. That's not representative of the million+ people who will try this game on launch. If I cared about the devs reading my posts I engage with their twitter account. A significant portion of the daily content posts get direct interaction with the community manager.
I highly doubt they'll entirely remove leveling, but they can definitely make it less painful for those of us who're looking forward to Ashes for the longterm gameplay systems.
If there is no leveling up, then the game has to implement something to prevent players to roll fast alts.
What do you suggest?
Why must players be prevented from rolling alts? Alts provide flexibility for solo, small group, large group, and raids.
Because I do not want players to be solo players in the mmo world. I want them to depend on each-other.
AoC has as design pillar this idea where players create micro communities and cannot obtain everything alone.
Rolling an alt doesn't mean you don't need other players. People are already in their own communities carried over from other games. That cat is already out of the bag.
Rolling an alt fast with the current design would allow the player to master more professions. How do you solve this problem? It is possible to master up to two professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[6][5][7][3]
I doubt you can simultaneously craft two things at once. Guilds, both small and large will already funnel mats to whoever they deem their crafting accounts to be. Alts actually being able to craft without having to level only helps those who only want to engage in the crafting/economic game loop.
Can you reformulate please? I don't understand your position here.
For me the crafting and economic loop is very important.
You may want to have a tank, dd and healer fast without leveling.
I say you should not be able to be master gathering, processing and crafting fast. I want the artisan leveling to be very long. Is this acceptable for you? If yes, then how do you ensure that players who roll and get 3 max characters fast will not also become proficient as artisans in different classes and professions?
Mastering crafting should take dedication, and have a progression path associated with it that makes items with higher statistics , consumes less resources, has unique stats, etc. You should be able to engage with the crafting minigame itself (most likely a combo of Vanguard's minigame system and Archeage's labor points) for 15 min segments or hours at a time depending on your time constraints. Likewise, gathering should have the same thing. In both of these systems you are actively playing the game how you want to play it and engaging with the larger world how you want to.
Guilds will have max level crafters within weeks of hitting the level cap unless its time-gated. If not the alt scenario you propose doesn't matter because the unique specialty you seek will be nullified by the abilities of guilds to brute force through it.
What is your opinion about the corruption mechanic?
Some players hate the corrupted ones. Should it be easier to roll a new character rather than clean the corruption?
How will players recognize each other if they can appear every weekend with a new max level character?
Corruption should be easy to wipe if infrequent and against players who statistically have a chance to win. I'd like to see mayors have the ability twist the values on what that means for their own respective nodes.
Players should be recognized if they want to be recognized. Subterfuge should play a central role in the development of node alliances, and their inevitable betrayal.
I think your vision would work too but would not ensure player retention as you said.
Your argument is
Ok, I think I'm done with this thread. It was pointless from the start and it kept being pointless throughout. Levels won't go away, people who like rpgs will keep liking rpgs, the sun might or might not come up tomorrow.
Good talk, everyone
I'm surprised you didnt throw Steven quote at him
"THIS GAME ISNT FOR YOU"
What he's advocating isnt gonna happen or change. It's a horse with no legs and a troll being fed.
If the game is enjoyable for the player who asks for skill to matter less than time investment then your game is gonna have a few problems with player retention.
If players get the skills fast they may still leave fast, as soon as they see that the game loop is not as they want it to be.
Also if the game would not require time sink, player's presence in the world could be reduced. Such players would play multiple MMOs at the same time and spend more time on the servers which require a time sink.
They would not build an emotional connection with the world of this game.
Why would players stay online on the server?
Why would care to defend the node during a siege or prevent the sieges in the first place?
Would it be acceptable if the player skills depend more on gear and in what state that gear is and on buildings your node and parent nodes have?
Because resources will be scarce. Getting high level gear fast will not be possible and while a node can reach metropolis level fast, developing the buildings inside it will actually take a long time.
If the loop is fun and socially engaging, people won't leave and they'll tell their friends to come play with them. Are you saying players should have an addiction where they habitually log in to this game despite not having fun?
Why would players stay online on the server? Because its fun.
Why would care to defend the node during a siege or prevent the sieges in the first place? Because PvP is fun. Social competition/cooperation is fun. Taking part in a shared story where real players can act as villains, heroes, propagandists, etc is fun and significantly more engaging than anything Intrepid will have the time/resources to make.
Would it be acceptable if the player skills depend more on gear and in what state that gear is and on buildings your node and parent nodes have? What do you mean by player skills? Are you saying gear itself unlocks your class abilities a la GW2? Are you talking about playerskill aka how I press buttons physically? The rest of the question I'm not sure I understand. To clarify, are you asking about the relationship between crafters abilities to make goods and the level rank of a node itself?
Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way.
Grinding level CAN be fun. If loot/currency is involved, if it's challenging and rewarding, , if you can aggro a lot of them at the same time, if you can lure them in traps, if you can team grind, other things can make it fun
To you it can be fun, and that's great you have fun doing it. If you had to craft 1000 swords before you could participate in a grinding session would you do it? You'd probably think: why do I have to do this random task in order to do the thing I want to?
"As part of our ideals as a game we're not going to give boosts away. We're not going to auto-level up a character. You have to spend time acclimating yourself to what this game is, to what the world that you're part of is; and that's an investment- a time investment; and that plays towards our ideas of risk-versus-reward; and I've always said our game's not going to be for everybody and that's okay."[9] – Steven Sharif
When he says risk-versus-reward, I doubt he means risking boredom for the reward of a fun game.
I don't have problem with you not wanting levels @KingDDD , but the way you try to make claims that many or most mmorpg players in general don't want it, dismissing the overwhelming majority in this thread disagreeing with you, and even trying make ridiculous claims like NW failing because they included levels makes you seem very trolly.
I assume you also want people to be master crafters almost immediately right? If you're being consistent. Because that's also just a levelling system, no different than the adventurer levels in principle. Input time and effort and get a higher level. It would completely kill the economy of the game if they do that of course.
Personally I want unlimited character progression (not player progression) since this is an MMORPG based on the pen and paper RPGs like Pathfinder, and that is a major part of the character's story in those.
Never-ending levels, preferably in horizontal levelling systems, where I can level up my class, my crafting my social origanizations, my freehold, my religion, maybe some day some master level type stuff. I want all the levelling, non-stop, forever. I never want to feel like I can't progress my character anymore in some way, be it combat, social stuff, or purely lore-based, because that is a core element of what the MMORPG genre is all about.
You know what excites the hell out of me? I imagine being max level, running some PVP around a metro or for a raid etc, and during the raid I finally realize that I really want X augment on my tanks javalin ability, and in the same moment realize I now have a reason to go spend hopefully 5+ hours minimum grinding out that augment for my ability. I love knowing that when I am not doing things for my guild I can spend significant time getting that augment, and hopefully later on a different one, again and again until I have a class perfectly fitted to me.
"As part of our ideals as a game we're not going to give boosts away. We're not going to auto-level up a character. You have to spend time acclimating yourself to what this game is, to what the world that you're part of is; and that's an investment- a time investment; and that plays towards our ideas of risk-versus-reward; and I've always said our game's not going to be for everybody and that's okay."[9] – Steven Sharif
When he says risk-versus-reward, I doubt he means risking boredom for the reward of a fun game.
Now I think you're just coping. And I hate using that word.
So, you want to remove a feature a lot of people want and find engaging because you alone don't want said feature?
Everything else you mention is still relevant to vertical progression.
Grinding mobs should exist in some form with unique playspaces, cosmetics etc. My not being forced to do it, doesn't; remove it.
It's verticle progression that I choose how I want to engage with it. You had the grinding aspect behind a choice and fun. There is no choice when verticle combat leveling is present.
I don't have problem with you not wanting levels @KingDDD , but the way you try to make claims that many or most mmorpg players in general don't want it, dismissing the overwhelming majority in this thread disagreeing with you, and even trying make ridiculous claims like NW failing because they included levels makes you seem very trolly.
I assume you also want people to be master crafters almost immediately right? If you're being consistent. Because that's also just a levelling system, no different than the adventurer levels in principle. Input time and effort and get a higher level. It would completely kill the economy of the game if they do that of course.
Personally I want unlimited character progression (not player progression) since this is an MMORPG based on the pen and paper RPGs like Pathfinder, and that is a major part of the character's story in those.
Never-ending levels, preferably in horizontal levelling systems, where I can level up my class, my crafting my social origanizations, my freehold, my religion, maybe some day some master level type stuff. I want all the levelling, non-stop, forever. I never want to feel like I can't progress my character anymore in some way, be it combat, social stuff, or purely lore-based, because that is a core element of what the MMORPG genre is all about.
You know what excites the hell out of me? I imagine being max level, running some PVP around a metro or for a raid etc, and during the raid I finally realize that I really want X augment on my tanks javalin ability, and in the same moment realize I now have a reason to go spend hopefully 5+ hours minimum grinding out that augment for my ability. I love knowing that when I am not doing things for my guild I can spend significant time getting that augment, and hopefully later on a different one, again and again until I have a class perfectly fitted to me.
In your scenario are you level cap? You have to do that first before you can make your pull interesting.
Well I suppose the positive of this post shows which(leveling or not leveling) is the preferred majority in this community.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
Theres maybe 5k (and that's pushing it) people who visit these forums once a week. That's not representative of the million+ people who will try this game on launch. If I cared about the devs reading my posts I engage with their twitter account. A significant portion of the daily content posts get direct interaction with the community manager.
I highly doubt they'll entirely remove leveling, but they can definitely make it less painful for those of us who're looking forward to Ashes for the longterm gameplay systems.
If there is no leveling up, then the game has to implement something to prevent players to roll fast alts.
What do you suggest?
Why must players be prevented from rolling alts? Alts provide flexibility for solo, small group, large group, and raids.
Because I do not want players to be solo players in the mmo world. I want them to depend on each-other.
AoC has as design pillar this idea where players create micro communities and cannot obtain everything alone.
Rolling an alt doesn't mean you don't need other players. People are already in their own communities carried over from other games. That cat is already out of the bag.
Rolling an alt fast with the current design would allow the player to master more professions. How do you solve this problem? It is possible to master up to two professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[6][5][7][3]
I doubt you can simultaneously craft two things at once. Guilds, both small and large will already funnel mats to whoever they deem their crafting accounts to be. Alts actually being able to craft without having to level only helps those who only want to engage in the crafting/economic game loop.
Can you reformulate please? I don't understand your position here.
For me the crafting and economic loop is very important.
You may want to have a tank, dd and healer fast without leveling.
I say you should not be able to be master gathering, processing and crafting fast. I want the artisan leveling to be very long. Is this acceptable for you? If yes, then how do you ensure that players who roll and get 3 max characters fast will not also become proficient as artisans in different classes and professions?
Mastering crafting should take dedication, and have a progression path associated with it that makes items with higher statistics , consumes less resources, has unique stats, etc. You should be able to engage with the crafting minigame itself (most likely a combo of Vanguard's minigame system and Archeage's labor points) for 15 min segments or hours at a time depending on your time constraints. Likewise, gathering should have the same thing. In both of these systems you are actively playing the game how you want to play it and engaging with the larger world how you want to.
Guilds will have max level crafters within weeks of hitting the level cap unless its time-gated. If not the alt scenario you propose doesn't matter because the unique specialty you seek will be nullified by the abilities of guilds to brute force through it.
What is your opinion about the corruption mechanic?
Some players hate the corrupted ones. Should it be easier to roll a new character rather than clean the corruption?
How will players recognize each other if they can appear every weekend with a new max level character?
Corruption should be easy to wipe if infrequent and against players who statistically have a chance to win. I'd like to see mayors have the ability twist the values on what that means for their own respective nodes.
Players should be recognized if they want to be recognized. Subterfuge should play a central role in the development of node alliances, and their inevitable betrayal.
I think your vision would work too but would not ensure player retention as you said.
Your argument is
Ok, I think I'm done with this thread. It was pointless from the start and it kept being pointless throughout. Levels won't go away, people who like rpgs will keep liking rpgs, the sun might or might not come up tomorrow.
Good talk, everyone
I'm surprised you didnt throw Steven quote at him
"THIS GAME ISNT FOR YOU"
What he's advocating isnt gonna happen or change. It's a horse with no legs and a troll being fed.
If the game is enjoyable for the player who asks for skill to matter less than time investment then your game is gonna have a few problems with player retention.
If players get the skills fast they may still leave fast, as soon as they see that the game loop is not as they want it to be.
Also if the game would not require time sink, player's presence in the world could be reduced. Such players would play multiple MMOs at the same time and spend more time on the servers which require a time sink.
They would not build an emotional connection with the world of this game.
Why would players stay online on the server?
Why would care to defend the node during a siege or prevent the sieges in the first place?
Would it be acceptable if the player skills depend more on gear and in what state that gear is and on buildings your node and parent nodes have?
Because resources will be scarce. Getting high level gear fast will not be possible and while a node can reach metropolis level fast, developing the buildings inside it will actually take a long time.
If the loop is fun and socially engaging, people won't leave and they'll tell their friends to come play with them. Are you saying players should have an addiction where they habitually log in to this game despite not having fun?
Why would players stay online on the server? Because its fun.
Why would care to defend the node during a siege or prevent the sieges in the first place? Because PvP is fun. Social competition/cooperation is fun. Taking part in a shared story where real players can act as villains, heroes, propagandists, etc is fun and significantly more engaging than anything Intrepid will have the time/resources to make.
I say this is an indie made mmorpg.
I am not sure they'll come with innovative never before seen fighting concepts, capable to retain players better than any other MMOs.
Players often leave when their friends leave.
So MMOs, to reduce such events, try to offer 'solo' players ways to interact even if they don't know each-other.
AoC goes against the mainstream by avoiding cross-realm zones, no global auction house, no teleportation but still a huge map, group finding is also split to local nodes...
So AoC hopes that creating bonds between players will be the aspect which will set it apart from competition.
Those micro communities which will form at node level take time to appear and span across guilds. The game does not rely on guilds only but bets on the citizenship concept.
Giving a new player a fully leveled up character to try out the game-loop is not a long enough time to integrate him into the node too. He will judge the game only based on the combat part.
Players who have no patience and dedication to level up a character, are also not the type of players who stay loyal to a game. Basically the leveling up will filter out those who you say it should try to retain.
Would it be acceptable if the player skills depend more on gear and in what state that gear is and on buildings your node and parent nodes have? What do you mean by player skills? Are you saying gear itself unlocks your class abilities a la GW2? Are you talking about playerskill aka how I press buttons physically? The rest of the question I'm not sure I understand. To clarify, are you asking about the relationship between crafters abilities to make goods and the level rank of a node itself?
I meant that
Gear (weapons and armor) has approximately a 40-50% influence on a player's overall power in the game.[5]
My question was if you would find it acceptable to be 90%, some coming from gear and some from buildings the players will build together within the node.
Then players instead of leveling up to 50 would spend a lot of time to improve their gear and keep it repaired.
That would also be difficult because resources are limited and death reduces the gear durability.
Such a system would also mean that a new character could become competitive very fast if he gets the gear from a friend or guild.
Or you are against resources and gear being difficult to obtain too?
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
"As part of our ideals as a game we're not going to give boosts away. We're not going to auto-level up a character. You have to spend time acclimating yourself to what this game is, to what the world that you're part of is; and that's an investment- a time investment; and that plays towards our ideas of risk-versus-reward; and I've always said our game's not going to be for everybody and that's okay."[9] – Steven Sharif
When he says risk-versus-reward, I doubt he means risking boredom for the reward of a fun game.
He means that if you lose the node during a siege or the caravan, you lose the time you invested to gather the resources needed to build the city defenses or the processed goods the caravan transports.
Without time investment what would you lose then?
If time is valuable to you, then the possibility that you might lose the fight will make you care more than for a fight in an arena for 2 gold / day.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
I don't have problem with you not wanting levels @KingDDD , but the way you try to make claims that many or most mmorpg players in general don't want it, dismissing the overwhelming majority in this thread disagreeing with you, and even trying make ridiculous claims like NW failing because they included levels makes you seem very trolly.
I assume you also want people to be master crafters almost immediately right? If you're being consistent. Because that's also just a levelling system, no different than the adventurer levels in principle. Input time and effort and get a higher level. It would completely kill the economy of the game if they do that of course.
Personally I want unlimited character progression (not player progression) since this is an MMORPG based on the pen and paper RPGs like Pathfinder, and that is a major part of the character's story in those.
Never-ending levels, preferably in horizontal levelling systems, where I can level up my class, my crafting my social origanizations, my freehold, my religion, maybe some day some master level type stuff. I want all the levelling, non-stop, forever. I never want to feel like I can't progress my character anymore in some way, be it combat, social stuff, or purely lore-based, because that is a core element of what the MMORPG genre is all about.
You know what excites the hell out of me? I imagine being max level, running some PVP around a metro or for a raid etc, and during the raid I finally realize that I really want X augment on my tanks javalin ability, and in the same moment realize I now have a reason to go spend hopefully 5+ hours minimum grinding out that augment for my ability. I love knowing that when I am not doing things for my guild I can spend significant time getting that augment, and hopefully later on a different one, again and again until I have a class perfectly fitted to me.
In your scenario are you level cap? You have to do that first before you can make your pull interesting.
I mean I literally said "I imagine being max level" lol, that post doesn't pertain to you in any way, merely a response to a thought someone else had that got me excited for a moment
Its a story element in the restaurant example. You seemed unable to get around the word allergy.
It was a poor analogy to make. Allergies can have actual fatal repercussions (I knew someone that died to an allergy).
There is no medical condition that prevents you from leveling in an MMO, that could see you actually die if you did. As such, using an analogy where death is a viable outcome is simply not suitable, not even as a "story element".
A more appropriate analogy would be "you dont like nuts and so pack a tantrum at the table when you see them on the plate".
If you are going to use analogues for your actions, use analogies that resemble your actions as closely as possible.
The funny part is everyone one of those successful MMOs has made leveling faster or gotten rid of parts of it entirely. WoWs newest expansion is praised for having a quick leveling experience. This lets people play the game how they want to.
It takes about as long today to level from new character to the level cap as it took to level from a new character to the level cap in 2005.
Sure, they have sped up how long it takes to get any individual level, but the whole process takes roughly the same amount of time.
Almost all games do this, ever since the 1990's. Ashes will be no different.
As to the purpose of level, there are many. Teaching is indeed one such purpose. You slowly give players the abilities their class kit provides so that they can learn each ability and how it fits in to their class, as well as game systems and mechanics.
There are other reasons for level, content being one.
However, your comment that there are other ways they can do progression is indeed correct - and every MMO ever has progression paths other than leveling.
The thing is, if Intrepid dropped levels and replaced it with another early progression path to perform the same functions, then that progression path would be just as essential for you to complete in order to become a pirate. The only difference is that it would be something other than levels.
The thing then would be, players would see this progression path and ask Intrepid why they didnt just make it a level based thing, as people more readily understand levels in MMO's.
I don't have problem with you not wanting levels @KingDDD , but the way you try to make claims that many or most mmorpg players in general don't want it, dismissing the overwhelming majority in this thread disagreeing with you, and even trying make ridiculous claims like NW failing because they included levels makes you seem very trolly.
I assume you also want people to be master crafters almost immediately right? If you're being consistent. Because that's also just a levelling system, no different than the adventurer levels in principle. Input time and effort and get a higher level. It would completely kill the economy of the game if they do that of course.
Personally I want unlimited character progression (not player progression) since this is an MMORPG based on the pen and paper RPGs like Pathfinder, and that is a major part of the character's story in those.
Never-ending levels, preferably in horizontal levelling systems, where I can level up my class, my crafting my social origanizations, my freehold, my religion, maybe some day some master level type stuff. I want all the levelling, non-stop, forever. I never want to feel like I can't progress my character anymore in some way, be it combat, social stuff, or purely lore-based, because that is a core element of what the MMORPG genre is all about.
You know what excites the hell out of me? I imagine being max level, running some PVP around a metro or for a raid etc, and during the raid I finally realize that I really want X augment on my tanks javalin ability, and in the same moment realize I now have a reason to go spend hopefully 5+ hours minimum grinding out that augment for my ability. I love knowing that when I am not doing things for my guild I can spend significant time getting that augment, and hopefully later on a different one, again and again until I have a class perfectly fitted to me.
In your scenario are you level cap? You have to do that first before you can make your pull interesting.
I mean I literally said "I imagine being max level" lol, that post doesn't pertain to you in any way, merely a response to a thought someone else had that got me excited for a moment
So you previously had to go through the timesink of leveling to get the customization option you want. Why do you have to go through x content you don't like to get y content you do. X is content you don't like be it pvp, timed dungeon runs, clear a raid, craft, etc. Y is content you do, in this case customizing your character to have a unique playstyle.
I don't have problem with you not wanting levels @KingDDD , but the way you try to make claims that many or most mmorpg players in general don't want it, dismissing the overwhelming majority in this thread disagreeing with you, and even trying make ridiculous claims like NW failing because they included levels makes you seem very trolly.
I assume you also want people to be master crafters almost immediately right? If you're being consistent. Because that's also just a levelling system, no different than the adventurer levels in principle. Input time and effort and get a higher level. It would completely kill the economy of the game if they do that of course.
Personally I want unlimited character progression (not player progression) since this is an MMORPG based on the pen and paper RPGs like Pathfinder, and that is a major part of the character's story in those.
Never-ending levels, preferably in horizontal levelling systems, where I can level up my class, my crafting my social origanizations, my freehold, my religion, maybe some day some master level type stuff. I want all the levelling, non-stop, forever. I never want to feel like I can't progress my character anymore in some way, be it combat, social stuff, or purely lore-based, because that is a core element of what the MMORPG genre is all about.
You know what excites the hell out of me? I imagine being max level, running some PVP around a metro or for a raid etc, and during the raid I finally realize that I really want X augment on my tanks javalin ability, and in the same moment realize I now have a reason to go spend hopefully 5+ hours minimum grinding out that augment for my ability. I love knowing that when I am not doing things for my guild I can spend significant time getting that augment, and hopefully later on a different one, again and again until I have a class perfectly fitted to me.
In your scenario are you level cap? You have to do that first before you can make your pull interesting.
I mean I literally said "I imagine being max level" lol, that post doesn't pertain to you in any way, merely a response to a thought someone else had that got me excited for a moment
So you previously had to go through the timesink of leveling to get the customization option you want. Why do you have to go through x content you don't like to get y content you do. X is content you don't like be it pvp, timed dungeon runs, clear a raid, craft, etc. Y is content you do, in this case customizing your character to have a unique playstyle.
Well I suppose the positive of this post shows which(leveling or not leveling) is the preferred majority in this community.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
Theres maybe 5k (and that's pushing it) people who visit these forums once a week. That's not representative of the million+ people who will try this game on launch. If I cared about the devs reading my posts I engage with their twitter account. A significant portion of the daily content posts get direct interaction with the community manager.
I highly doubt they'll entirely remove leveling, but they can definitely make it less painful for those of us who're looking forward to Ashes for the longterm gameplay systems.
If there is no leveling up, then the game has to implement something to prevent players to roll fast alts.
What do you suggest?
Why must players be prevented from rolling alts? Alts provide flexibility for solo, small group, large group, and raids.
Because I do not want players to be solo players in the mmo world. I want them to depend on each-other.
AoC has as design pillar this idea where players create micro communities and cannot obtain everything alone.
Rolling an alt doesn't mean you don't need other players. People are already in their own communities carried over from other games. That cat is already out of the bag.
Rolling an alt fast with the current design would allow the player to master more professions. How do you solve this problem? It is possible to master up to two professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[6][5][7][3]
I doubt you can simultaneously craft two things at once. Guilds, both small and large will already funnel mats to whoever they deem their crafting accounts to be. Alts actually being able to craft without having to level only helps those who only want to engage in the crafting/economic game loop.
Can you reformulate please? I don't understand your position here.
For me the crafting and economic loop is very important.
You may want to have a tank, dd and healer fast without leveling.
I say you should not be able to be master gathering, processing and crafting fast. I want the artisan leveling to be very long. Is this acceptable for you? If yes, then how do you ensure that players who roll and get 3 max characters fast will not also become proficient as artisans in different classes and professions?
Mastering crafting should take dedication, and have a progression path associated with it that makes items with higher statistics , consumes less resources, has unique stats, etc. You should be able to engage with the crafting minigame itself (most likely a combo of Vanguard's minigame system and Archeage's labor points) for 15 min segments or hours at a time depending on your time constraints. Likewise, gathering should have the same thing. In both of these systems you are actively playing the game how you want to play it and engaging with the larger world how you want to.
Guilds will have max level crafters within weeks of hitting the level cap unless its time-gated. If not the alt scenario you propose doesn't matter because the unique specialty you seek will be nullified by the abilities of guilds to brute force through it.
What is your opinion about the corruption mechanic?
Some players hate the corrupted ones. Should it be easier to roll a new character rather than clean the corruption?
How will players recognize each other if they can appear every weekend with a new max level character?
Corruption should be easy to wipe if infrequent and against players who statistically have a chance to win. I'd like to see mayors have the ability twist the values on what that means for their own respective nodes.
Players should be recognized if they want to be recognized. Subterfuge should play a central role in the development of node alliances, and their inevitable betrayal.
I think your vision would work too but would not ensure player retention as you said.
Your argument is
Ok, I think I'm done with this thread. It was pointless from the start and it kept being pointless throughout. Levels won't go away, people who like rpgs will keep liking rpgs, the sun might or might not come up tomorrow.
Good talk, everyone
I'm surprised you didnt throw Steven quote at him
"THIS GAME ISNT FOR YOU"
What he's advocating isnt gonna happen or change. It's a horse with no legs and a troll being fed.
If the game is enjoyable for the player who asks for skill to matter less than time investment then your game is gonna have a few problems with player retention.
If players get the skills fast they may still leave fast, as soon as they see that the game loop is not as they want it to be.
Also if the game would not require time sink, player's presence in the world could be reduced. Such players would play multiple MMOs at the same time and spend more time on the servers which require a time sink.
They would not build an emotional connection with the world of this game.
Why would players stay online on the server?
Why would care to defend the node during a siege or prevent the sieges in the first place?
Would it be acceptable if the player skills depend more on gear and in what state that gear is and on buildings your node and parent nodes have?
Because resources will be scarce. Getting high level gear fast will not be possible and while a node can reach metropolis level fast, developing the buildings inside it will actually take a long time.
If the loop is fun and socially engaging, people won't leave and they'll tell their friends to come play with them. Are you saying players should have an addiction where they habitually log in to this game despite not having fun?
Why would players stay online on the server? Because its fun.
Why would care to defend the node during a siege or prevent the sieges in the first place? Because PvP is fun. Social competition/cooperation is fun. Taking part in a shared story where real players can act as villains, heroes, propagandists, etc is fun and significantly more engaging than anything Intrepid will have the time/resources to make.
I say this is an indie made mmorpg.
I am not sure they'll come with innovative never before seen fighting concepts, capable to retain players better than any other MMOs.
Players often leave when their friends leave.
So MMOs, to reduce such events, try to offer 'solo' players ways to interact even if they don't know each-other.
AoC goes against the mainstream by avoiding cross-realm zones, no global auction house, no teleportation but still a huge map, group finding is also split to local nodes...
So AoC hopes that creating bonds between players will be the aspect which will set it apart from competition.
Those micro communities which will form at node level take time to appear and span across guilds. The game does not rely on guilds only but bets on the citizenship concept.
Giving a new player a fully leveled up character to try out the game-loop is not a long enough time to integrate him into the node too. He will judge the game only based on the combat part.
Players who have no patience and dedication to level up a character, are also not the type of players who stay loyal to a game. Basically the leveling up will filter out those who you say it should try to retain.
Would it be acceptable if the player skills depend more on gear and in what state that gear is and on buildings your node and parent nodes have? What do you mean by player skills? Are you saying gear itself unlocks your class abilities a la GW2? Are you talking about playerskill aka how I press buttons physically? The rest of the question I'm not sure I understand. To clarify, are you asking about the relationship between crafters abilities to make goods and the level rank of a node itself?
I meant that
Gear (weapons and armor) has approximately a 40-50% influence on a player's overall power in the game.[5]
My question was if you would find it acceptable to be 90%, some coming from gear and some from buildings the players will build together within the node.
Then players instead of leveling up to 50 would spend a lot of time to improve their gear and keep it repaired.
That would also be difficult because resources are limited and death reduces the gear durability.
Such a system would also mean that a new character could become competitive very fast if he gets the gear from a friend or guild.
Or you are against resources and gear being difficult to obtain too?
Its an indie game only in the sense its the first game from an unknown studio. The ame budget and teamsize for Intrepid is the equivalent of any triple a studio in the US.
The differences between players who enjoy solo and group play is murkier than an either A or B. The prevalence of preexisting online communities, the liquidity of player time, player skill level, all mean there are multiple different player groups who engage in both solo and group content that need engaging content.
An auction house being global, as an example, is not an evolution favoring solo players or group players. Its a system of convenience. That system degrades the size of the world, something an MMO should strive to lean into. Likewise leveling makes the world smaller. Dividing the world into specific areas that have value at hour 10, and lesser value at hour 200 means that I have no reason to go to those areas. You can put high-level content in an hour 10 zone. This however cuts the zones design into two segregated play areas, constricting the zones design. An example of this concept can be seen in WARs RvR lakes.
Integrating players into nodes and the world is one of the most important parts of the pacing of Ashes. How/why does leveling accelerate your ability to integrate in a node social structure?
As for leveling equating to loyalty, have you seen League, Counterstrike, Fortnite, Day Z. Each player base for those games is extremely loyal to their respective game. Most don't have leveling at all, or it's cosmetic.
Im curious to see when your 50% effectiveness was taken. I wonder how many times the design document has changed for the gearing system since that quote was given. Outside that, it's a broad statement stating that gear will play a role in your effectiveness. In order to have some form of ingame economy there has to be degradation of gear.
In your 50% example does that mean a naked player vs someone whos in the best of the best of the best? There needs to be a minimum viable gear set that players can get that gives them the ability to play the game. The percentage for that increase should be large enough that the best gear feels like an accomplishment to get, but not so large that it becomes an insurmountable task for someone to get moderately close. Player skill should be taken into to lower/higher that difference to reward folks who play better.
I don't have problem with you not wanting levels @KingDDD , but the way you try to make claims that many or most mmorpg players in general don't want it, dismissing the overwhelming majority in this thread disagreeing with you, and even trying make ridiculous claims like NW failing because they included levels makes you seem very trolly.
I assume you also want people to be master crafters almost immediately right? If you're being consistent. Because that's also just a levelling system, no different than the adventurer levels in principle. Input time and effort and get a higher level. It would completely kill the economy of the game if they do that of course.
Personally I want unlimited character progression (not player progression) since this is an MMORPG based on the pen and paper RPGs like Pathfinder, and that is a major part of the character's story in those.
Never-ending levels, preferably in horizontal levelling systems, where I can level up my class, my crafting my social origanizations, my freehold, my religion, maybe some day some master level type stuff. I want all the levelling, non-stop, forever. I never want to feel like I can't progress my character anymore in some way, be it combat, social stuff, or purely lore-based, because that is a core element of what the MMORPG genre is all about.
You know what excites the hell out of me? I imagine being max level, running some PVP around a metro or for a raid etc, and during the raid I finally realize that I really want X augment on my tanks javalin ability, and in the same moment realize I now have a reason to go spend hopefully 5+ hours minimum grinding out that augment for my ability. I love knowing that when I am not doing things for my guild I can spend significant time getting that augment, and hopefully later on a different one, again and again until I have a class perfectly fitted to me.
In your scenario are you level cap? You have to do that first before you can make your pull interesting.
I mean I literally said "I imagine being max level" lol, that post doesn't pertain to you in any way, merely a response to a thought someone else had that got me excited for a moment
So you previously had to go through the timesink of leveling to get the customization option you want. Why do you have to go through x content you don't like to get y content you do. X is content you don't like be it pvp, timed dungeon runs, clear a raid, craft, etc. Y is content you do, in this case customizing your character to have a unique playstyle.
I don't have problem with you not wanting levels @KingDDD , but the way you try to make claims that many or most mmorpg players in general don't want it, dismissing the overwhelming majority in this thread disagreeing with you, and even trying make ridiculous claims like NW failing because they included levels makes you seem very trolly.
I assume you also want people to be master crafters almost immediately right? If you're being consistent. Because that's also just a levelling system, no different than the adventurer levels in principle. Input time and effort and get a higher level. It would completely kill the economy of the game if they do that of course.
Personally I want unlimited character progression (not player progression) since this is an MMORPG based on the pen and paper RPGs like Pathfinder, and that is a major part of the character's story in those.
Never-ending levels, preferably in horizontal levelling systems, where I can level up my class, my crafting my social origanizations, my freehold, my religion, maybe some day some master level type stuff. I want all the levelling, non-stop, forever. I never want to feel like I can't progress my character anymore in some way, be it combat, social stuff, or purely lore-based, because that is a core element of what the MMORPG genre is all about.
You know what excites the hell out of me? I imagine being max level, running some PVP around a metro or for a raid etc, and during the raid I finally realize that I really want X augment on my tanks javalin ability, and in the same moment realize I now have a reason to go spend hopefully 5+ hours minimum grinding out that augment for my ability. I love knowing that when I am not doing things for my guild I can spend significant time getting that augment, and hopefully later on a different one, again and again until I have a class perfectly fitted to me.
In your scenario are you level cap? You have to do that first before you can make your pull interesting.
I mean I literally said "I imagine being max level" lol, that post doesn't pertain to you in any way, merely a response to a thought someone else had that got me excited for a moment
So you previously had to go through the timesink of leveling to get the customization option you want. Why do you have to go through x content you don't like to get y content you do. X is content you don't like be it pvp, timed dungeon runs, clear a raid, craft, etc. Y is content you do, in this case customizing your character to have a unique playstyle.
The game isn't for everyone. Simple as.
Its a simple question.
Core game design. Level is a determining factor in several game systems for AoC. If you hate the games design, you aren't being forced to play it
Well I suppose the positive of this post shows which(leveling or not leveling) is the preferred majority in this community.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
Theres maybe 5k (and that's pushing it) people who visit these forums once a week. That's not representative of the million+ people who will try this game on launch. If I cared about the devs reading my posts I engage with their twitter account. A significant portion of the daily content posts get direct interaction with the community manager.
I highly doubt they'll entirely remove leveling, but they can definitely make it less painful for those of us who're looking forward to Ashes for the longterm gameplay systems.
If there is no leveling up, then the game has to implement something to prevent players to roll fast alts.
What do you suggest?
Why must players be prevented from rolling alts? Alts provide flexibility for solo, small group, large group, and raids.
Because I do not want players to be solo players in the mmo world. I want them to depend on each-other.
AoC has as design pillar this idea where players create micro communities and cannot obtain everything alone.
Rolling an alt doesn't mean you don't need other players. People are already in their own communities carried over from other games. That cat is already out of the bag.
Rolling an alt fast with the current design would allow the player to master more professions. How do you solve this problem? It is possible to master up to two professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[6][5][7][3]
I doubt you can simultaneously craft two things at once. Guilds, both small and large will already funnel mats to whoever they deem their crafting accounts to be. Alts actually being able to craft without having to level only helps those who only want to engage in the crafting/economic game loop.
Can you reformulate please? I don't understand your position here.
For me the crafting and economic loop is very important.
You may want to have a tank, dd and healer fast without leveling.
I say you should not be able to be master gathering, processing and crafting fast. I want the artisan leveling to be very long. Is this acceptable for you? If yes, then how do you ensure that players who roll and get 3 max characters fast will not also become proficient as artisans in different classes and professions?
Mastering crafting should take dedication, and have a progression path associated with it that makes items with higher statistics , consumes less resources, has unique stats, etc. You should be able to engage with the crafting minigame itself (most likely a combo of Vanguard's minigame system and Archeage's labor points) for 15 min segments or hours at a time depending on your time constraints. Likewise, gathering should have the same thing. In both of these systems you are actively playing the game how you want to play it and engaging with the larger world how you want to.
Guilds will have max level crafters within weeks of hitting the level cap unless its time-gated. If not the alt scenario you propose doesn't matter because the unique specialty you seek will be nullified by the abilities of guilds to brute force through it
Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way.
Leveling should never be considered a time sink as long as it's fun and interesting, and if you're a part-time player, maybe you should consider being a vassal and supplement/help the players who are investing a lot of time in the game(not sure if that's how to mechanic is supposed to work). TBH, I'm sick of games where every player is the ultimate hero of the world, however how many million of them there are. I want a more realistic world where there are all sorts of characters at different levels, and the time invested in a game could be a great way to set those levels, I don't think a weekend only player should be rewarded the same as someone who invests a lot of time in the game. Maybe for once, I'd like to play a nobody and just exist in the virtual world exploring and making friends, struggling against a difficult hostile world, until eventually my fame starts to precede me and my character becomes a hero, not because it's what everybody does, but because I earned it.
As well, you might want a fast progression so that you don't have to spend so much time, but if that applies to everyone, some people are just going to devour it whole and before too long, the whole game is ruined because there's just no where else to go, too fast? Think about every persons experience. I could imagine some guy that can only log on during the weekend, he's a combat/crafter type that's only managed to make i halfway to max level while some people are already at max, he's made some friends and is part of a small guild making potions and swords which he sells, his friends help him level and escorting his caravans. Eventually, he reaches max level... that's kinda cool on it's own, and much more memorable than every single person racing to max. If the game is good, slow down, enjoy it.
In your scenario the guys caravan is ambushed by high level players. The enemy rogue instantly one shots him from stealth. The bandits pick his team apart because they know where they are, and have a predetermined kill plan. Rogue proceeds to tbag the lowbie because a oneshot on someone always deserves a good old fashioned tbag. This happens to his caravans multiple times.
His friends resent him because he has to be carried, putting them at a significant disadvantage and ultimately causes their gear to break. He resents the game because of the excessive tbagging and an unwinnable situation. What is the player retention rate for this player and the many like him?
I should have qualified that his friends are already max level and he's not being carried because he's making gear for them and contributing gold to the guild. I've been informed in another thread that crafting is not dependent on adventure level, which would be pretty cool.
Ok, I think I'm done with this thread. It was pointless from the start and it kept being pointless throughout. Levels won't go away, people who like rpgs will keep liking rpgs, the sun might or might not come up tomorrow.
Good talk, everyone
I'm surprised you didnt throw Steven quote at him
"THIS GAME ISNT FOR YOU"
What he's advocating isnt gonna happen or change. It's a horse with no legs and a troll being fed.
If the game is enjoyable for the player who asks for skill to matter less than time investment then your game is gonna have a few problems with player retention.
Steven doesnt give a shit if this game is a wow killer or a cult following small community. he isnt here to be a big mmo - just a damn good mmorpg that he grew up with and wants to relive those experience with others who agrees with his viewpoint.
This is a guy with fuck you money - making a game for himself basically and sharing it to others. As he has stated - this game will not be for everyone. Hence this game isnt for you.
say it with me
THIS...
GAME...
ISNT...
FOR...
YOU...
maybe, but can we be a bit more careful with our language on a public forum please. However, I agree that a good game shouldn't always bow to what players want but stays true to it's principles and makes changes to design based on sound development needs.
Well I suppose the positive of this post shows which(leveling or not leveling) is the preferred majority in this community.
The seven or so people in this third aren't representative of anything.
Representative of a ratio of this community. Either way, all of these forums conversation are taken into account. Including this one. Not that it would've changed anything either way. The games core design includes leveling a character.
Theres maybe 5k (and that's pushing it) people who visit these forums once a week. That's not representative of the million+ people who will try this game on launch. If I cared about the devs reading my posts I engage with their twitter account. A significant portion of the daily content posts get direct interaction with the community manager.
I highly doubt they'll entirely remove leveling, but they can definitely make it less painful for those of us who're looking forward to Ashes for the longterm gameplay systems.
If there is no leveling up, then the game has to implement something to prevent players to roll fast alts.
What do you suggest?
Why must players be prevented from rolling alts? Alts provide flexibility for solo, small group, large group, and raids.
Because I do not want players to be solo players in the mmo world. I want them to depend on each-other.
AoC has as design pillar this idea where players create micro communities and cannot obtain everything alone.
Rolling an alt doesn't mean you don't need other players. People are already in their own communities carried over from other games. That cat is already out of the bag.
Rolling an alt fast with the current design would allow the player to master more professions. How do you solve this problem? It is possible to master up to two professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[6][5][7][3]
I doubt you can simultaneously craft two things at once. Guilds, both small and large will already funnel mats to whoever they deem their crafting accounts to be. Alts actually being able to craft without having to level only helps those who only want to engage in the crafting/economic game loop.
Can you reformulate please? I don't understand your position here.
For me the crafting and economic loop is very important.
You may want to have a tank, dd and healer fast without leveling.
I say you should not be able to be master gathering, processing and crafting fast. I want the artisan leveling to be very long. Is this acceptable for you? If yes, then how do you ensure that players who roll and get 3 max characters fast will not also become proficient as artisans in different classes and professions?
Mastering crafting should take dedication, and have a progression path associated with it that makes items with higher statistics , consumes less resources, has unique stats, etc. You should be able to engage with the crafting minigame itself (most likely a combo of Vanguard's minigame system and Archeage's labor points) for 15 min segments or hours at a time depending on your time constraints. Likewise, gathering should have the same thing. In both of these systems you are actively playing the game how you want to play it and engaging with the larger world how you want to.
Guilds will have max level crafters within weeks of hitting the level cap unless its time-gated. If not the alt scenario you propose doesn't matter because the unique specialty you seek will be nullified by the abilities of guilds to brute force through it.
What is your opinion about the corruption mechanic?
Some players hate the corrupted ones. Should it be easier to roll a new character rather than clean the corruption?
How will players recognize each other if they can appear every weekend with a new max level character?
Corruption should be easy to wipe if infrequent and against players who statistically have a chance to win. I'd like to see mayors have the ability twist the values on what that means for their own respective nodes.
Players should be recognized if they want to be recognized. Subterfuge should play a central role in the development of node alliances, and their inevitable betrayal.
I think your vision would work too but would not ensure player retention as you said.
Your argument is
Ok, I think I'm done with this thread. It was pointless from the start and it kept being pointless throughout. Levels won't go away, people who like rpgs will keep liking rpgs, the sun might or might not come up tomorrow.
Good talk, everyone
I'm surprised you didnt throw Steven quote at him
"THIS GAME ISNT FOR YOU"
What he's advocating isnt gonna happen or change. It's a horse with no legs and a troll being fed.
If the game is enjoyable for the player who asks for skill to matter less than time investment then your game is gonna have a few problems with player retention.
If players get the skills fast they may still leave fast, as soon as they see that the game loop is not as they want it to be.
Also if the game would not require time sink, player's presence in the world could be reduced. Such players would play multiple MMOs at the same time and spend more time on the servers which require a time sink.
They would not build an emotional connection with the world of this game.
Why would players stay online on the server?
Why would care to defend the node during a siege or prevent the sieges in the first place?
Would it be acceptable if the player skills depend more on gear and in what state that gear is and on buildings your node and parent nodes have?
Because resources will be scarce. Getting high level gear fast will not be possible and while a node can reach metropolis level fast, developing the buildings inside it will actually take a long time.
If the loop is fun and socially engaging, people won't leave and they'll tell their friends to come play with them. Are you saying players should have an addiction where they habitually log in to this game despite not having fun?
Why would players stay online on the server? Because its fun.
Why would care to defend the node during a siege or prevent the sieges in the first place? Because PvP is fun. Social competition/cooperation is fun. Taking part in a shared story where real players can act as villains, heroes, propagandists, etc is fun and significantly more engaging than anything Intrepid will have the time/resources to make.
I say this is an indie made mmorpg.
I am not sure they'll come with innovative never before seen fighting concepts, capable to retain players better than any other MMOs.
Players often leave when their friends leave.
So MMOs, to reduce such events, try to offer 'solo' players ways to interact even if they don't know each-other.
AoC goes against the mainstream by avoiding cross-realm zones, no global auction house, no teleportation but still a huge map, group finding is also split to local nodes...
So AoC hopes that creating bonds between players will be the aspect which will set it apart from competition.
Those micro communities which will form at node level take time to appear and span across guilds. The game does not rely on guilds only but bets on the citizenship concept.
Giving a new player a fully leveled up character to try out the game-loop is not a long enough time to integrate him into the node too. He will judge the game only based on the combat part.
Players who have no patience and dedication to level up a character, are also not the type of players who stay loyal to a game. Basically the leveling up will filter out those who you say it should try to retain.
Would it be acceptable if the player skills depend more on gear and in what state that gear is and on buildings your node and parent nodes have? What do you mean by player skills? Are you saying gear itself unlocks your class abilities a la GW2? Are you talking about playerskill aka how I press buttons physically? The rest of the question I'm not sure I understand. To clarify, are you asking about the relationship between crafters abilities to make goods and the level rank of a node itself?
I meant that
Gear (weapons and armor) has approximately a 40-50% influence on a player's overall power in the game.[5]
My question was if you would find it acceptable to be 90%, some coming from gear and some from buildings the players will build together within the node.
Then players instead of leveling up to 50 would spend a lot of time to improve their gear and keep it repaired.
That would also be difficult because resources are limited and death reduces the gear durability.
Such a system would also mean that a new character could become competitive very fast if he gets the gear from a friend or guild.
Or you are against resources and gear being difficult to obtain too?
Its an indie game only in the sense its the first game from an unknown studio. The ame budget and teamsize for Intrepid is the equivalent of any triple a studio in the US.
The differences between players who enjoy solo and group play is murkier than an either A or B. The prevalence of preexisting online communities, the liquidity of player time, player skill level, all mean there are multiple different player groups who engage in both solo and group content that need engaging content.
By solo I understand players who do not want to join a guild and prefer to team up spontaneously for 20 minutes with whoever happens to want to do the same quests or dungeon. All those players with whom they interact are anonymous faces which leave no memories.
The lack of a central global auction house forces players to cooperate to protect the trade routes. And they would focus on their local territory. Such players would meet often. In games with global AH you have no idea who created those goods. The whole interaction is missing.
How/why does leveling accelerate your ability to integrate in a node social structure?
It allows me to observe the players and interact with them.
You see... even if I don't want to play alone and I want to be in a guild, I will most likely not ask around to join one. I have good memories being in a guild but I also left some. I prefer to know how those players are before I join. The leveling up process create various situations which shows what kind of players they are. Also I like the citizenship concept and I am curious how that will evolve as it tries to create a greater group which includes guilds.
Anyway, for me the leveling up gives me time to observe events and the players who are already at max level. And that is a fun phase for me.
As for leveling equating to loyalty, have you seen League, Counterstrike, Fortnite, Day Z. Each player base for those games is extremely loyal to their respective game. Most don't have leveling at all, or it's cosmetic.
Those players are not interested to play AoC and they are not the target audience either
Even if they might be a bigger size, for Steven is not worth trying to adjust the game to fit to such players, now after he advertised the game as a traditional old style mmorpg for 6 years. So leveling will push them away and will attract those who want leveling.
Im curious to see when your 50% effectiveness was taken. I wonder how many times the design document has changed for the gearing system since that quote was given. Outside that, it's a broad statement stating that gear will play a role in your effectiveness. In order to have some form of ingame economy there has to be degradation of gear.
In your 50% example does that mean a naked player vs someone whos in the best of the best of the best? There needs to be a minimum viable gear set that players can get that gives them the ability to play the game. The percentage for that increase should be large enough that the best gear feels like an accomplishment to get, but not so large that it becomes an insurmountable task for someone to get moderately close. Player skill should be taken into to lower/higher that difference to reward folks who play better.
We argue here about a game which does not even exists yet and it's release is in the far future
That design document is not yet relevant. It will be when Alpha 2 starts and they start to balance things.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
Comments
What is your opinion about the corruption mechanic?
Some players hate the corrupted ones. Should it be easier to roll a new character rather than clean the corruption?
How will players recognize each other if they can appear every weekend with a new max level character?
Maybe do some caravans too while the server is empty.
In your scenario the guys caravan is ambushed by high level players. The enemy rogue instantly one shots him from stealth. The bandits pick his team apart because they know where they are, and have a predetermined kill plan. Rogue proceeds to tbag the lowbie because a oneshot on someone always deserves a good old fashioned tbag. This happens to his caravans multiple times.
His friends resent him because he has to be carried, putting them at a significant disadvantage and ultimately causes their gear to break. He resents the game because of the excessive tbagging and an unwinnable situation. What is the player retention rate for this player and the many like him?
Corruption should be easy to wipe if infrequent and against players who statistically have a chance to win. I'd like to see mayors have the ability twist the values on what that means for their own respective nodes.
Players should be recognized if they want to be recognized. Subterfuge should play a central role in the development of node alliances, and their inevitable betrayal.
I think your vision would work too but would not ensure player retention as you said.
Your argument is
If players get the skills fast they may still leave fast, as soon as they see that the game loop is not as they want it to be.
Also if the game would not require time sink, player's presence in the world could be reduced. Such players would play multiple MMOs at the same time and spend more time on the servers which require a time sink.
They would not build an emotional connection with the world of this game.
Why would players stay online on the server?
Why would care to defend the node during a siege or prevent the sieges in the first place?
Would it be acceptable if the player skills depend more on gear and in what state that gear is and on buildings your node and parent nodes have?
Because resources will be scarce. Getting high level gear fast will not be possible and while a node can reach metropolis level fast, developing the buildings inside it will actually take a long time.
Grinding level CAN be fun. If loot/currency is involved, if it's challenging and rewarding, , if you can aggro a lot of them at the same time, if you can lure them in traps, if you can team grind, other things can make it fun
"As part of our ideals as a game we're not going to give boosts away. We're not going to auto-level up a character. You have to spend time acclimating yourself to what this game is, to what the world that you're part of is; and that's an investment- a time investment; and that plays towards our ideas of risk-versus-reward; and I've always said our game's not going to be for everybody and that's okay."[9] – Steven Sharif
If the loop is fun and socially engaging, people won't leave and they'll tell their friends to come play with them. Are you saying players should have an addiction where they habitually log in to this game despite not having fun?
Why would players stay online on the server? Because its fun.
Why would care to defend the node during a siege or prevent the sieges in the first place? Because PvP is fun. Social competition/cooperation is fun. Taking part in a shared story where real players can act as villains, heroes, propagandists, etc is fun and significantly more engaging than anything Intrepid will have the time/resources to make.
Would it be acceptable if the player skills depend more on gear and in what state that gear is and on buildings your node and parent nodes have? What do you mean by player skills? Are you saying gear itself unlocks your class abilities a la GW2? Are you talking about playerskill aka how I press buttons physically? The rest of the question I'm not sure I understand. To clarify, are you asking about the relationship between crafters abilities to make goods and the level rank of a node itself?
To you it can be fun, and that's great you have fun doing it. If you had to craft 1000 swords before you could participate in a grinding session would you do it? You'd probably think: why do I have to do this random task in order to do the thing I want to?
Everything else you mention is still relevant to vertical progression.
When he says risk-versus-reward, I doubt he means risking boredom for the reward of a fun game.
You know what excites the hell out of me? I imagine being max level, running some PVP around a metro or for a raid etc, and during the raid I finally realize that I really want X augment on my tanks javalin ability, and in the same moment realize I now have a reason to go spend hopefully 5+ hours minimum grinding out that augment for my ability. I love knowing that when I am not doing things for my guild I can spend significant time getting that augment, and hopefully later on a different one, again and again until I have a class perfectly fitted to me.
Now I think you're just coping. And I hate using that word.
Grinding mobs should exist in some form with unique playspaces, cosmetics etc. My not being forced to do it, doesn't; remove it.
It's verticle progression that I choose how I want to engage with it. You had the grinding aspect behind a choice and fun. There is no choice when verticle combat leveling is present.
In your scenario are you level cap? You have to do that first before you can make your pull interesting.
I say this is an indie made mmorpg.
I am not sure they'll come with innovative never before seen fighting concepts, capable to retain players better than any other MMOs.
Players often leave when their friends leave.
So MMOs, to reduce such events, try to offer 'solo' players ways to interact even if they don't know each-other.
AoC goes against the mainstream by avoiding cross-realm zones, no global auction house, no teleportation but still a huge map, group finding is also split to local nodes...
So AoC hopes that creating bonds between players will be the aspect which will set it apart from competition.
Those micro communities which will form at node level take time to appear and span across guilds. The game does not rely on guilds only but bets on the citizenship concept.
Giving a new player a fully leveled up character to try out the game-loop is not a long enough time to integrate him into the node too. He will judge the game only based on the combat part.
Players who have no patience and dedication to level up a character, are also not the type of players who stay loyal to a game. Basically the leveling up will filter out those who you say it should try to retain.
I meant that
Gear (weapons and armor) has approximately a 40-50% influence on a player's overall power in the game.[5]
My question was if you would find it acceptable to be 90%, some coming from gear and some from buildings the players will build together within the node.
Then players instead of leveling up to 50 would spend a lot of time to improve their gear and keep it repaired.
That would also be difficult because resources are limited and death reduces the gear durability.
Such a system would also mean that a new character could become competitive very fast if he gets the gear from a friend or guild.
Or you are against resources and gear being difficult to obtain too?
He means that if you lose the node during a siege or the caravan, you lose the time you invested to gather the resources needed to build the city defenses or the processed goods the caravan transports.
Without time investment what would you lose then?
If time is valuable to you, then the possibility that you might lose the fight will make you care more than for a fight in an arena for 2 gold / day.
I mean I literally said "I imagine being max level" lol, that post doesn't pertain to you in any way, merely a response to a thought someone else had that got me excited for a moment
There is no medical condition that prevents you from leveling in an MMO, that could see you actually die if you did. As such, using an analogy where death is a viable outcome is simply not suitable, not even as a "story element".
A more appropriate analogy would be "you dont like nuts and so pack a tantrum at the table when you see them on the plate".
If you are going to use analogues for your actions, use analogies that resemble your actions as closely as possible.
It takes about as long today to level from new character to the level cap as it took to level from a new character to the level cap in 2005.
Sure, they have sped up how long it takes to get any individual level, but the whole process takes roughly the same amount of time.
Almost all games do this, ever since the 1990's. Ashes will be no different.
As to the purpose of level, there are many. Teaching is indeed one such purpose. You slowly give players the abilities their class kit provides so that they can learn each ability and how it fits in to their class, as well as game systems and mechanics.
There are other reasons for level, content being one.
However, your comment that there are other ways they can do progression is indeed correct - and every MMO ever has progression paths other than leveling.
The thing is, if Intrepid dropped levels and replaced it with another early progression path to perform the same functions, then that progression path would be just as essential for you to complete in order to become a pirate. The only difference is that it would be something other than levels.
The thing then would be, players would see this progression path and ask Intrepid why they didnt just make it a level based thing, as people more readily understand levels in MMO's.
So you previously had to go through the timesink of leveling to get the customization option you want. Why do you have to go through x content you don't like to get y content you do. X is content you don't like be it pvp, timed dungeon runs, clear a raid, craft, etc. Y is content you do, in this case customizing your character to have a unique playstyle.
The game isn't for everyone. Simple as.
Its an indie game only in the sense its the first game from an unknown studio. The ame budget and teamsize for Intrepid is the equivalent of any triple a studio in the US.
The differences between players who enjoy solo and group play is murkier than an either A or B. The prevalence of preexisting online communities, the liquidity of player time, player skill level, all mean there are multiple different player groups who engage in both solo and group content that need engaging content.
An auction house being global, as an example, is not an evolution favoring solo players or group players. Its a system of convenience. That system degrades the size of the world, something an MMO should strive to lean into. Likewise leveling makes the world smaller. Dividing the world into specific areas that have value at hour 10, and lesser value at hour 200 means that I have no reason to go to those areas. You can put high-level content in an hour 10 zone. This however cuts the zones design into two segregated play areas, constricting the zones design. An example of this concept can be seen in WARs RvR lakes.
Integrating players into nodes and the world is one of the most important parts of the pacing of Ashes. How/why does leveling accelerate your ability to integrate in a node social structure?
As for leveling equating to loyalty, have you seen League, Counterstrike, Fortnite, Day Z. Each player base for those games is extremely loyal to their respective game. Most don't have leveling at all, or it's cosmetic.
Im curious to see when your 50% effectiveness was taken. I wonder how many times the design document has changed for the gearing system since that quote was given. Outside that, it's a broad statement stating that gear will play a role in your effectiveness. In order to have some form of ingame economy there has to be degradation of gear.
In your 50% example does that mean a naked player vs someone whos in the best of the best of the best? There needs to be a minimum viable gear set that players can get that gives them the ability to play the game. The percentage for that increase should be large enough that the best gear feels like an accomplishment to get, but not so large that it becomes an insurmountable task for someone to get moderately close. Player skill should be taken into to lower/higher that difference to reward folks who play better.
Its a simple question.
Core game design. Level is a determining factor in several game systems for AoC. If you hate the games design, you aren't being forced to play it
maybe, but can we be a bit more careful with our language on a public forum please. However, I agree that a good game shouldn't always bow to what players want but stays true to it's principles and makes changes to design based on sound development needs.
By solo I understand players who do not want to join a guild and prefer to team up spontaneously for 20 minutes with whoever happens to want to do the same quests or dungeon. All those players with whom they interact are anonymous faces which leave no memories.
The lack of a central global auction house forces players to cooperate to protect the trade routes. And they would focus on their local territory. Such players would meet often. In games with global AH you have no idea who created those goods. The whole interaction is missing.
It allows me to observe the players and interact with them.
You see... even if I don't want to play alone and I want to be in a guild, I will most likely not ask around to join one. I have good memories being in a guild but I also left some. I prefer to know how those players are before I join. The leveling up process create various situations which shows what kind of players they are. Also I like the citizenship concept and I am curious how that will evolve as it tries to create a greater group which includes guilds.
Anyway, for me the leveling up gives me time to observe events and the players who are already at max level. And that is a fun phase for me.
Those players are not interested to play AoC and they are not the target audience either
Even if they might be a bigger size, for Steven is not worth trying to adjust the game to fit to such players, now after he advertised the game as a traditional old style mmorpg for 6 years. So leveling will push them away and will attract those who want leveling.
We argue here about a game which does not even exists yet and it's release is in the far future
That design document is not yet relevant. It will be when Alpha 2 starts and they start to balance things.
Fuck no, why would we do that?