Lost Ark is probably the closest thing to what you want, but from pretty much every place I've seen discussing it, its "leveling time" was a meme due to how short it was. Oh, that also led to literal fucking hundreds of thousands of bots, exactly because you could level to max within a few hours and could then participate in top lvl content immediately. Though even that game just moved their insane grind to those max lvls, so functionally nothing changed.
This right here is honestly a massive reason why having level progression is huge for MMORPGs. Bottlenecking the bots.
You advocate for time to win gameplay. I have a feeling that the vast majority of players on this forum, let alone those who play games, wouldn't agree with this.
What a concept. Who would've thought that the person playing for a year would be better than the one who started 1 day ago. And lets not even start on the concept of a RPG where you start as someone who is clueless and has to learn everything and progress as a character over time.
Why do I have to level if an additional, superior system is already planned for the game? What is leveling accomplishing?
Literally getting those augments is the same idea as leveling. Both will require you to quest PVP and PVE, both will teach you both how to use your characters abilities as well as the new ones you aquired from previously questing for the other augments.
Which RPGs sell well? Are they single player games or are they MMOs? What is the leveling time for said game and how long is the story-based campaign for it?
Just rpgs in general. Don't think I've heard of many rpgs where you didn't have a leveling system of some kind. Genshin has several leveling systems, pretty much all based not only on tedious grind, but also on timegates. That game makes over a $billion every 6 months (or at least did on release) and is ultra popular. NW had both vertical and artisanal grind. The game had a mil players on release even after a very weak beta.
Lost Ark is probably the closest thing to what you want, but from pretty much every place I've seen discussing it, its "leveling time" was a meme due to how short it was. Oh, that also led to literal fucking hundreds of thousands of bots, exactly because you could level to max within a few hours and could then participate in top lvl content immediately. Though even that game just moved their insane grind to those max lvls, so functionally nothing changed.
Are you advocating for time to win? The most common complaint about FFXIV is the need to complete the story content. Crowfall was also a TTW game, how'd that go for them?
FF14 is a story-based rpg, so of course the game would require you to finish the story asap. But afaik there's a ton of stuff that you can do even w/o doing the story. When I tried the game out I got stuck on the damn Gold Saucer for several days, just because it was fun.
And if by "time to win" you mean that in order to be better than others you must have invested more time into the game, be it in the form of skill-honing or leveling (which is still skill-honing) - then yes, I want games to not fucking give everyone everything right at the first hour of the game.
I'm sure there is a time investment to play perfectly in Sea of Thieves. However, we could both jump into the game and within a few hours have fun playing together with a statistical chance of beating those who've played for years.
Which is exactly why the session-based games exist. You can play them casually at a moment's notice or you can go full hardcore on them. Also, as I said in my comment, you wouldn't really be able to win against hardcore players unless you had years of fps practice. And outside of pure fps skills, ya ain't sinking a ship of a well-trained group of players if you yourself have only played for a few hours. I know that because I've tried many times and failed and then when I got better I started failing way less and understood how a very good group of people could easily beat some casuals w/o breaking a sweat.
Does leveling effectively teach you how to play the game? How many people who leveled in Vanilla WoW circa 2005 knew how to play their character compared to what's achievable in Classic?
Leveling helps you ease into the game's mechanics. Others have already said that WoW had a shitty design when it came to how the game taught you to play, so this is a bad example. I expect AoC to provide a better learning experience through leveling and will be giving as much feedback pertaining to that as I can.
Again which RPGs sold well and what were the characteristics of said games?
Are you arguing a phone game, created around timeshinks and negating that with real world currency as your example game? Different strokes for different folks I guess. What percentage of NW players stuck around after launch? I have a feeling their retention rate was less than ideal.
Leveling is not skill honing. Again how many people in 2005 WoW hit level cap and could play their character to any degree. What were the wipe rates in solo/group/raid content as compared to Classic in 2020? Is there an MMO that teaches leveling in an efficient and fun manner without being a timesink?
As for sea of thieves you are not at a 50/50 winrate with experienced players. But a 20/80 has a significantly different feeling and general outcome compared to 0/100.
You can't use Vanilla WoW and Classic WoW as a counter argument. Many people who played Classic also played Vanilla. Most even played the same classes in both spheres. Skill acquisition across levels can therefore not be used as an example.
Again how many people in 2005 WoW hit level cap and could play their character to any degree
And again, thats because it took a single ability spammed over and over again to progress, so that's what people did and thus never learned, you can't compare yourself to garbage unless you want to your average to be garbage as well
Alright, all I've gathered from this is "I don't like spending time leveling a character so the game should change for me".
The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition?
That's mostly subjective. I find leveling immensely fun. I even like min/maxing characters in different level brackets for pvp like twinking in classic WoW. I love the feeling of accomplishment having several max level characters knowing that not everyone will achieve that. Its just as relevant and fun as upgrading gear, but with levels you are upgrading the character itself.
The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels.
You say that like its a bad thing. I love the feeling of running into content that is too high level for me because it gives me something to set a goal to clear once I overcome the lower level content. I have zero need or desire to have the ability to do anything and everything all at once, THAT is bad design for an MMORPG.
Its a bad thing if someone cannot do it because their character is statistically not powerful enough. Make the mechanics difficult not the formula. Being locked out of playing with friends is the anthesis of an MMO.
level with friends...or make friends while leveling. Holy crap, the point of an MMORPG!
What makes those players and I have the same skill levels? If player a is terrible, player b and c will have a negative time playing with them. Forced interaction in this scenario won't make any of us have a positive experience. Guilds are the way around this, but unfortunately, they are all high level and I cannot play with them.
The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels.
It only took you three (3) pages of self-defense and replies to finally give an example of how you would prefer to level, @KingDDD.
Kudos.
Now, stand by your words ... because Ashes will definitely have XP gain and leveling through questing/exploration.
Just remember that (per Steven Sharif) it's still going to be approximately 225 hours of leveling to get a max character. That's not changing.
I saw that you carefully avoided @Nikr's question about having a max level character "given to you on a silver platter".
Every player in Ashes will be spending those 225 hours leveling. There will be no exemptions.
However, every player certainly has a say in what kind of content they will personally be doing during that time (to get to max level).
And whats accomplished in that 225 hour investment? If all you want is a gold star next to your name, I'm sure they'll add one to the cash shop.
In your words, questing/exploration is to be accomplished.
If you still don’t enjoy the leveling process doing questing/exploration in an MMORPG, then you’ll have to make the tough decision on whether Ashes is the right game for you.
You advocate for time to win gameplay. I have a feeling that the vast majority of players on this forum, let alone those who play games, wouldn't agree with this.
Yet the absolute majority of answers here disagree with your "I want everything and I want it now, daddy" attitude.
If I asked for everything, I'd advocate for a vendor with every crafting material and a teleport to wherever I want to go.
What makes those players and I have the same skill levels? If player a is terrible, player b and c will have a negative time playing with them. Forced interaction in this scenario won't make any of us have a positive experience. Guilds are the way around this, but unfortunately, they are all high level and I cannot play with them.
Well if your having a bad time playing with bad players then you just need to change your mentality or change who your playing with. Personally I play every single game I can competitively, and every single team I have ever played with, every friend I have ever made, I have always made it clear that I would rather play with someone that has a good attitude and shiet mechanics than a mechanical genius with a shiet attitude.
So if you aren't having fun because you are a different skill level than your buds, teach them, get new buds, or go join a game without skill, but your absolutely wrong that player B and C won't have a good time, player KingDDD won't have a good time, but many of us probably will.
It wasn't an insult. The point stands, do you want to play ashes? If so what drew you to ashes because so far you seem to dislike the basic fundamentals.
Lost Ark is probably the closest thing to what you want, but from pretty much every place I've seen discussing it, its "leveling time" was a meme due to how short it was. Oh, that also led to literal fucking hundreds of thousands of bots, exactly because you could level to max within a few hours and could then participate in top lvl content immediately. Though even that game just moved their insane grind to those max lvls, so functionally nothing changed.
This right here is honestly a massive reason why having level progression is huge for MMORPGs. Bottlenecking the bots.
You advocate for time to win gameplay. I have a feeling that the vast majority of players on this forum, let alone those who play games, wouldn't agree with this.
What a concept. Who would've thought that the person playing for a year would be better than the one who started 1 day ago. And lets not even start on the concept of a RPG where you start as someone who is clueless and has to learn everything and progress as a character over time.
There will be bots in this game if its profitable to have them. Leveling won't do anything about it. A subscription won't do anything about it. Its just the nature of the playing an online game.
Better because a player has more statistics is not the same as better because a player is physically/mentally better at the game. Any 6k DOTA player can smurf and stomp some 3ks, the game starts with both having (in theory) a 50/50 win chance.
Alright, all I've gathered from this is "I don't like spending time leveling a character so the game should change for me".
The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition?
That's mostly subjective. I find leveling immensely fun. I even like min/maxing characters in different level brackets for pvp like twinking in classic WoW. I love the feeling of accomplishment having several max level characters knowing that not everyone will achieve that. Its just as relevant and fun as upgrading gear, but with levels you are upgrading the character itself.
The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels.
You say that like its a bad thing. I love the feeling of running into content that is too high level for me because it gives me something to set a goal to clear once I overcome the lower level content. I have zero need or desire to have the ability to do anything and everything all at once, THAT is bad design for an MMORPG.
Its a bad thing if someone cannot do it because their character is statistically not powerful enough. Make the mechanics difficult not the formula. Being locked out of playing with friends is the anthesis of an MMO.
level with friends...or make friends while leveling. Holy crap, the point of an MMORPG!
What makes those players and I have the same skill levels? If player a is terrible, player b and c will have a negative time playing with them. Forced interaction in this scenario won't make any of us have a positive experience. Guilds are the way around this, but unfortunately, they are all high level and I cannot play with them.
What separates player B and C from A when you take away levels? You'll still have that even if player A, B, and C all get what you're advocating for.
Why do I have to level if an additional, superior system is already planned for the game? What is leveling accomplishing?
Literally getting those augments is the same idea as leveling. Both will require you to quest PVP and PVE, both will teach you both how to use your characters abilities as well as the new ones you aquired from previously questing for the other augments.
So why do I need to level IN ADDITION to that? It appears to me to be a timesink.
Again how many people in 2005 WoW hit level cap and could play their character to any degree
And again, thats because it took a single ability spammed over and over again to progress, so that's what people did and thus never learned, you can't compare yourself to garbage unless you want to your average to be garbage as well
Because its a needless timesink. Again is there any example you have?
I enjoying grinding even if it is just killing mobs as a time sink, I enjoy trying combos and figuring out my class during it, i enjoy optimizing the process, but regardless I can't convince you and your opinion is yours to have, so enjoy the ride of development, so you on Verra
So...a game designed to utilise time is a time sink? All games are a time sink. The only difference is entertainment. If you are entertained the time sink is invisible, if you are not entertained time will drag. If you don't find vertical progression entertaining perhaps you should find a better time sink.
Lost Ark is probably the closest thing to what you want, but from pretty much every place I've seen discussing it, its "leveling time" was a meme due to how short it was. Oh, that also led to literal fucking hundreds of thousands of bots, exactly because you could level to max within a few hours and could then participate in top lvl content immediately. Though even that game just moved their insane grind to those max lvls, so functionally nothing changed.
This right here is honestly a massive reason why having level progression is huge for MMORPGs. Bottlenecking the bots.
You advocate for time to win gameplay. I have a feeling that the vast majority of players on this forum, let alone those who play games, wouldn't agree with this.
What a concept. Who would've thought that the person playing for a year would be better than the one who started 1 day ago. And lets not even start on the concept of a RPG where you start as someone who is clueless and has to learn everything and progress as a character over time.
There will be bots in this game if its profitable to have them. Leveling won't do anything about it. A subscription won't do anything about it. Its just the nature of the playing an online game.
Better because a player has more statistics is not the same as better because a player is physically/mentally better at the game. Any 6k DOTA player can smurf and stomp some 3ks, the game starts with both having (in theory) a 50/50 win chance.
You shouldn't make it easier for them. Ban a max level bot, thats 2 months of leveling that they need to invest into making another.
So are you also advocating for having zero gear and the stats they come with? Those gear stats and the time it took to acquire it all are bad according to your logic. There should be no progression systems as that would take away from being able to immediately jump into the game and completely rely upon skill.
You're advocating for a matchmaking MMORPG with zero progression all because you think the content is a time sink.
What makes those players and I have the same skill levels? If player a is terrible, player b and c will have a negative time playing with them. Forced interaction in this scenario won't make any of us have a positive experience. Guilds are the way around this, but unfortunately, they are all high level and I cannot play with them.
Well if your having a bad time playing with bad players then you just need to change your mentality or change who your playing with. Personally I play every single game I can competitively, and every single team I have ever played with, every friend I have ever made, I have always made it clear that I would rather play with someone that has a good attitude and shiet mechanics than a mechanical genius with a shiet attitude.
So if you aren't having fun because you are a different skill level than your buds, teach them, get new buds, or go join a game without skill, but your absolutely wrong that player B and C won't have a good time, player KingDDD won't have a good time, but many of us probably will.
So how do you propose I find these new players? Will they be recruiting a level 20 when they're already level cap? I already can't play with the people I know who share my skill level, and mentality. Leveling doesn't help facilitate my ability to find like-minded players. Who you choose to play with is great and you should be allowed to play with whoever you want. However, I'd ask that you extend the same courtesy to me.
What makes those players and I have the same skill levels? If player a is terrible, player b and c will have a negative time playing with them. Forced interaction in this scenario won't make any of us have a positive experience. Guilds are the way around this, but unfortunately, they are all high level and I cannot play with them.
Well if your having a bad time playing with bad players then you just need to change your mentality or change who your playing with. Personally I play every single game I can competitively, and every single team I have ever played with, every friend I have ever made, I have always made it clear that I would rather play with someone that has a good attitude and shiet mechanics than a mechanical genius with a shiet attitude.
So if you aren't having fun because you are a different skill level than your buds, teach them, get new buds, or go join a game without skill, but your absolutely wrong that player B and C won't have a good time, player KingDDD won't have a good time, but many of us probably will.
So how do you propose I find these new players? Will they be recruiting a level 20 when they're already level cap? I already can't play with the people I know who share my skill level, and mentality. Leveling doesn't help facilitate my ability to find like-minded players. Who you choose to play with is great and you should be allowed to play with whoever you want. However, I'd ask that you extend the same courtesy to me.
Well you go to global chat or node chat and type "New player looking for guild, still leveling but plan to do hardcore endgame content. PM me"
and until you get someone's interest, you continue your MMORPG journey of leveling and experiencing the world of Vera
It wasn't an insult. The point stands, do you want to play ashes? If so what drew you to ashes because so far you seem to dislike the basic fundamentals.
I love the fundamentals. Nodes are awesome, augemnts are great, open world sounds amazing, a variety of classes and unique customization should be great, graphics look astounding, and the lead dev has actually played an MMO in the past decade as a player with a team that has experience playing MMOs with a variety of skill levels versus someone who's been a lead developer in the industry for 20+ years beholden to turning a profit for shareholders.
It wasn't an insult. The point stands, do you want to play ashes? If so what drew you to ashes because so far you seem to dislike the basic fundamentals.
I love the fundamentals. Nodes are awesome, augemnts are great, open world sounds amazing, a variety of classes and unique customization should be great, graphics look astounding, and the lead dev has actually played an MMO in the past decade as a player with a team that has experience playing MMOs with a variety of skill levels versus someone who's been a lead developer in the industry for 20+ years beholden to turning a profit for shareholders.
Awesome, heres another question. Will character levels stop you from playing the game?
The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels.
It only took you three (3) pages of self-defense and replies to finally give an example of how you would prefer to level, @KingDDD.
Kudos.
Now, stand by your words ... because Ashes will definitely have XP gain and leveling through questing/exploration.
Just remember that (per Steven Sharif) it's still going to be approximately 225 hours of leveling to get a max character. That's not changing.
I saw that you carefully avoided @Nikr's question about having a max level character "given to you on a silver platter".
Every player in Ashes will be spending those 225 hours leveling. There will be no exemptions.
However, every player certainly has a say in what kind of content they will personally be doing during that time (to get to max level).
And whats accomplished in that 225 hour investment? If all you want is a gold star next to your name, I'm sure they'll add one to the cash shop.
In your words, questing/exploration is to be accomplished.
If you still don’t enjoy the leveling process doing questing/exploration in an MMORPG, then you’ll have to make the tough decision on whether Ashes is the right game for you.
I've saved 1000s of villages across a multitude of universes from pestilence, werewolves, mad-kings, and goblins. It just isn't interesting to do it for the 1001st time. Again why do I need to have some arbitrary bar fill to enjoy the exploration aspect? It only serves to limit my ability to explore.
Because its a needless timesink. Again is there any example you have?
I enjoying grinding even if it is just killing mobs as a time sink, I enjoy trying combos and figuring out my class during it, i enjoy optimizing the process, but regardless I can't convince you and your opinion is yours to have, so enjoy the ride of development, so you on Verra
And there should be some level of content that scratches that same itch with its own rewards and progression paths. The issue is that I have to do it and I have to do it as my first major experience in the game.
Are you arguing a phone game, created around timeshinks and negating that with real world currency as your example game? Different strokes for different folks I guess.
Yes, a free game with rpg mechanics that you can play on mobile and pc (as many newer mmos are btw) is ultra popular even though it has mechanics that you dislike.
What percentage of NW players stuck around after launch? I have a feeling their retention rate was less than ideal.
Yes, a glitchy, broken, shittily-designed game somehow didn't keep its playerbase, what a shocker. But before people knew that it was a broken game, they knew that it was an rpg with a shitton of stuff to level and a vertical progression too. And somehow still a million people bought the game and tried it out.
Leveling is not skill honing. Again how many people in 2005 WoW hit level cap and could play their character to any degree. What were the wipe rates in solo/group/raid content as compared to Classic in 2020? Is there an MMO that teaches leveling in an efficient and fun manner without being a timesink?
Skill honing takes time. Levels are just a representation of the time you spent in the game. And as others have already said, WoW is a bad example, but you keep using it.
Though as have been stated before, Ashes will have a ton of content not related to your vertical progression.
As for sea of thieves you are not at a 50/50 winrate with experienced players. But a 20/80 has a significantly different feeling and general outcome compared to 0/100.
Except it way closer to 0/100 than 20/80. That 20 would only be true if you're a pro fps player, though even then, you'd need 4 of such players to win against 4 top lvl SoT players and even then your win is nowhere near assured, because the top players will know way more tricks and mechanics to outplay you even if you have the fps skill. But that fps skill still required you to play literal thousands of hours of fps games to get, and if you somehow could represent that invested time with a lvl value - you'd be super high lvl (pretty much the ladder system in most current fps games).
Guilds are the way around this, but unfortunately, they are all high level and I cannot play with them.
Except there's countless guilds that accept low lvl players and help them level up or don't even care about their lvls. And as a direct example of that, I'll make a guild like that in AoC.
If I asked for everything, I'd advocate for a vendor with every crafting material and a teleport to wherever I want to go.
So you're totally fine with spending hundreds of hours getting gear, but not fine with doing THE LITERALLY SAME THING but with a number that also goes up at the same time?
So how do you propose I find these new players? Will they be recruiting a level 20 when they're already level cap? I already can't play with the people I know who share my skill level, and mentality. Leveling doesn't help facilitate my ability to find like-minded players. Who you choose to play with is great and you should be allowed to play with whoever you want. However, I'd ask that you extend the same courtesy to me.
As Dolyem already said, you... socialize in a social game. There'll always be people willing to play with low lvl people, especially in AoC where you vertical lvl won't mean as much as it does in other mmos.
It wasn't an insult. The point stands, do you want to play ashes? If so what drew you to ashes because so far you seem to dislike the basic fundamentals.
I love the fundamentals. Nodes are awesome, augemnts are great, open world sounds amazing, a variety of classes and unique customization should be great, graphics look astounding, and the lead dev has actually played an MMO in the past decade as a player with a team that has experience playing MMOs with a variety of skill levels versus someone who's been a lead developer in the industry for 20+ years beholden to turning a profit for shareholders.
Awesome, heres another question. Will character levels stop you from playing the game?
Depends on how it takes for it to be fun. If I'm playing a tank and my abilities and role are locked behind a timewall, it'll probably be pretty boring unless the starting zone has something to keep my interest. And that doesn't refer to saving a village from a graphically beautiful dragon. I've done that before and don't particularly care to do it again.
It wasn't an insult. The point stands, do you want to play ashes? If so what drew you to ashes because so far you seem to dislike the basic fundamentals.
I love the fundamentals. Nodes are awesome, augemnts are great, open world sounds amazing, a variety of classes and unique customization should be great, graphics look astounding, and the lead dev has actually played an MMO in the past decade as a player with a team that has experience playing MMOs with a variety of skill levels versus someone who's been a lead developer in the industry for 20+ years beholden to turning a profit for shareholders.
Awesome, heres another question. Will character levels stop you from playing the game?
Depends on how it takes for it to be fun. If I'm playing a tank and my abilities and role are locked behind a timewall, it'll probably be pretty boring unless the starting zone has something to keep my interest. And that doesn't refer to saving a village from a graphically beautiful dragon. I've done that before and don't particularly care to do it again.
its a cliché at this point but it needs to be said. This game may not be for you my dude.
The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels.
It only took you three (3) pages of self-defense and replies to finally give an example of how you would prefer to level, @KingDDD.
Kudos.
Now, stand by your words ... because Ashes will definitely have XP gain and leveling through questing/exploration.
Just remember that (per Steven Sharif) it's still going to be approximately 225 hours of leveling to get a max character. That's not changing.
I saw that you carefully avoided @Nikr's question about having a max level character "given to you on a silver platter".
Every player in Ashes will be spending those 225 hours leveling. There will be no exemptions.
However, every player certainly has a say in what kind of content they will personally be doing during that time (to get to max level).
And whats accomplished in that 225 hour investment? If all you want is a gold star next to your name, I'm sure they'll add one to the cash shop.
In your words, questing/exploration is to be accomplished.
If you still don’t enjoy the leveling process doing questing/exploration in an MMORPG, then you’ll have to make the tough decision on whether Ashes is the right game for you.
I've saved 1000s of villages across a multitude of universes from pestilence, werewolves, mad-kings, and goblins. It just isn't interesting to do it for the 1001st time. Again why do I need to have some arbitrary bar fill to enjoy the exploration aspect? It only serves to limit my ability to explore.
Because that's part of any RPG genre ... Ashes included.
Don't like it?
No problem.
There are other posts in your thread, here, that suggest other games that better suit your interests.
Are you arguing a phone game, created around timeshinks and negating that with real world currency as your example game? Different strokes for different folks I guess.
Yes, a free game with rpg mechanics that you can play on mobile and pc (as many newer mmos are btw) is ultra popular even though it has mechanics that you dislike.
What percentage of NW players stuck around after launch? I have a feeling their retention rate was less than ideal.
Yes, a glitchy, broken, shittily-designed game somehow didn't keep its playerbase, what a shocker. But before people knew that it was a broken game, they knew that it was an rpg with a shitton of stuff to level and a vertical progression too. And somehow still a million people bought the game and tried it out.
Leveling is not skill honing. Again how many people in 2005 WoW hit level cap and could play their character to any degree. What were the wipe rates in solo/group/raid content as compared to Classic in 2020? Is there an MMO that teaches leveling in an efficient and fun manner without being a timesink?
Skill honing takes time. Levels are just a representation of the time you spent in the game. And as others have already said, WoW is a bad example, but you keep using it.
Though as have been stated before, Ashes will have a ton of content not related to your vertical progression.
As for sea of thieves you are not at a 50/50 winrate with experienced players. But a 20/80 has a significantly different feeling and general outcome compared to 0/100.
Except it way closer to 0/100 than 20/80. That 20 would only be true if you're a pro fps player, though even then, you'd need 4 of such players to win against 4 top lvl SoT players and even then your win is nowhere near assured, because the top players will know way more tricks and mechanics to outplay you even if you have the fps skill. But that fps skill still required you to play literal thousands of hours of fps games to get, and if you somehow could represent that invested time with a lvl value - you'd be super high lvl (pretty much the ladder system in most current fps games).
Guilds are the way around this, but unfortunately, they are all high level and I cannot play with them.
Except there's countless guilds that accept low lvl players and help them level up or don't even care about their lvls. And as a direct example of that, I'll make a guild like that in AoC.
If I asked for everything, I'd advocate for a vendor with every crafting material and a teleport to wherever I want to go.
So you're totally fine with spending hundreds of hours getting gear, but not fine with doing THE LITERALLY SAME THING but with a number that also goes up at the same time?
So how do you propose I find these new players? Will they be recruiting a level 20 when they're already level cap? I already can't play with the people I know who share my skill level, and mentality. Leveling doesn't help facilitate my ability to find like-minded players. Who you choose to play with is great and you should be allowed to play with whoever you want. However, I'd ask that you extend the same courtesy to me.
As Dolyem already said, you... socialize in a social game. There'll always be people willing to play with low lvl people, especially in AoC where you vertical lvl won't mean as much as it does in other mmos.
Genshin Impact is P2W, but again if you like games designed around that have at it.
NW was a buggy poorly designed mess because they added levels to it. They spent 1-2 years of development time making content that isn't fun, only to neglect what could be the fun part of the game. People bought New World because it's a new MMO and this genre is saturated with people looking for a new game. Leveling didn't help with the retention rate, and I doubt a significant number of people bought new world for the lore.
So if WoW is a bad example, what is a game that is a good example? How long does it take and why is that relevant. DMC is 10 hours long and has a significantly more complex combat system than any MMO is going to have. Why must less complex game have a significantly inflated learning time?
That's great that you say you'll make a guild. However, saying something and doing it for a significant amount of time are two very different things. As someone whos tried playing a few MMOs in the past few months, its difficult to find a guild in a game due to verticle progression.
Your SoT perspective is just conjecture and requires brand new bob with 0 gaming experience vs Chad the pro. In reality there will be more people around the 50 percentile of player skill and you will run into those players more often. So my invested time in other MMOs means i get to skip levels? Cool, where do I apply that to my account and do I have to verify my top 1 percentile ranking in other games?
Grinding gear is different than grinding levels as long as gear customization increases the ability to customize my character to the desired playstyle I want. It also means I'm not restricted in what gear I can grind because nothing is off limits to me because of an arbitrary mechanic like my level.
Hitting 6k took me roughly two years of playtime. The difference between that and leveling is there was nothing stopping me from achieving that besides my own abilities and understanding. Dota didn't gate me at 3k because other people who played for that same amount of time were there.
Are there people always willing to play? Is it a positive experience for both the new player and the veteran to play together? In my experience, the answer to that is no.
Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way.
why it isn't good design? care to elaborate?
fun is subjective. killing mobs to level up or get gear is fun for me.
progression implies a timesink
If you're playing a dps role you need to have the necessary abilities to kill mobs. Jumping through artificial hoops doesn't add anything but jumping through artificial hoops.
you cant kill mobs at low level?
how do you plan to introduce abilities to players? so if your class has 30 abilities plus augments, should players start with everything unlocked? isn't that overwhelming? or maybe lets just give players 3 abilities max and that's it
Pacing is very difficult in an MMO. Players have to be introduced to the overarching and unique game systems in addition to how their class plays in a solo, small group, large groupm and raids setting. Leveling doesn't teach any of that. A tutorial should act like a buffet hall, once completed individual players can choose what they want to do and how they want to do it.
I see what you're saying, and you're right that it's hard to teach players how to work in a group or raid environment while levelling.
That said, I feel a lot more could be done to teach players while levelling, mostly about their own class abilities. One of the biggest hurdles players encounter when they first reach max level is they are suddenly having to use abilities that they have never had to use while levelling.
Taking WoW as an example, most classes get some kind of CC or spell interrupt, and all healers get buffs and debuff-cleansing spells, yet none of these are needed during the levelling (you can literally get to max level just by spamming a single button if you like).
This means that once they get to max level, even IF the player remembers they have those abilities, they won't have developed the muscle memory to be able to use them effectively. That's partly why casual LFR dungeons and raids are such a coinflipping mess.
Compare that to a game like Sekiro, where early on you are introduced to the counter mechanic. The difference between Sekiro and WoW (aside from the difficulty) is that once Sekiro has taught you the skill in a tutorial, it regularly gives you enemies that require you to use it. This is crucial in helping the player to develop the muscle memory needed to complete the later parts of the game.
Unless you force players to use an ability by putting them in situations where it's needed, they won't use it and will forget about it.
How long does it take a player to learn how combat abilities work? A more complex game like Devil May Cry doesn't start you with your entire kit at the beginning but slowly introduces new weapons, combos, unlocks, etc over the course of a 10ish hour campaign; 10 hours is significantly faster than 45 days.
Is it necessary to have the additional time bloat?
It's not just about learning how abilities work, but developing muscle memory for those skills. The last thing you want in the middle of an intense battle is to have to stop and remember which key your CC ability is on. By the time you reach max level you should have all your abilities committed to muscle memory, which is only possible if you use those abilities regularly while levelling.
Comments
This right here is honestly a massive reason why having level progression is huge for MMORPGs. Bottlenecking the bots.
What a concept. Who would've thought that the person playing for a year would be better than the one who started 1 day ago. And lets not even start on the concept of a RPG where you start as someone who is clueless and has to learn everything and progress as a character over time.
Again which RPGs sold well and what were the characteristics of said games?
Are you arguing a phone game, created around timeshinks and negating that with real world currency as your example game? Different strokes for different folks I guess. What percentage of NW players stuck around after launch? I have a feeling their retention rate was less than ideal.
Leveling is not skill honing. Again how many people in 2005 WoW hit level cap and could play their character to any degree. What were the wipe rates in solo/group/raid content as compared to Classic in 2020? Is there an MMO that teaches leveling in an efficient and fun manner without being a timesink?
As for sea of thieves you are not at a 50/50 winrate with experienced players. But a 20/80 has a significantly different feeling and general outcome compared to 0/100.
And again, thats because it took a single ability spammed over and over again to progress, so that's what people did and thus never learned, you can't compare yourself to garbage unless you want to your average to be garbage as well Regardless of "yes or no" why shouldn't there be?
What makes those players and I have the same skill levels? If player a is terrible, player b and c will have a negative time playing with them. Forced interaction in this scenario won't make any of us have a positive experience. Guilds are the way around this, but unfortunately, they are all high level and I cannot play with them.
In your words, questing/exploration is to be accomplished.
If you still don’t enjoy the leveling process doing questing/exploration in an MMORPG, then you’ll have to make the tough decision on whether Ashes is the right game for you.
If I asked for everything, I'd advocate for a vendor with every crafting material and a teleport to wherever I want to go.
Insults are fun and all, but it doesn't really add anything to the conversation.
Well if your having a bad time playing with bad players then you just need to change your mentality or change who your playing with. Personally I play every single game I can competitively, and every single team I have ever played with, every friend I have ever made, I have always made it clear that I would rather play with someone that has a good attitude and shiet mechanics than a mechanical genius with a shiet attitude.
So if you aren't having fun because you are a different skill level than your buds, teach them, get new buds, or go join a game without skill, but your absolutely wrong that player B and C won't have a good time, player KingDDD won't have a good time, but many of us probably will.
There will be bots in this game if its profitable to have them. Leveling won't do anything about it. A subscription won't do anything about it. Its just the nature of the playing an online game.
Better because a player has more statistics is not the same as better because a player is physically/mentally better at the game. Any 6k DOTA player can smurf and stomp some 3ks, the game starts with both having (in theory) a 50/50 win chance.
What separates player B and C from A when you take away levels? You'll still have that even if player A, B, and C all get what you're advocating for.
So why do I need to level IN ADDITION to that? It appears to me to be a timesink.
Because its a needless timesink. Again is there any example you have?
You shouldn't make it easier for them. Ban a max level bot, thats 2 months of leveling that they need to invest into making another.
So are you also advocating for having zero gear and the stats they come with? Those gear stats and the time it took to acquire it all are bad according to your logic. There should be no progression systems as that would take away from being able to immediately jump into the game and completely rely upon skill.
You're advocating for a matchmaking MMORPG with zero progression all because you think the content is a time sink.
So how do you propose I find these new players? Will they be recruiting a level 20 when they're already level cap? I already can't play with the people I know who share my skill level, and mentality. Leveling doesn't help facilitate my ability to find like-minded players. Who you choose to play with is great and you should be allowed to play with whoever you want. However, I'd ask that you extend the same courtesy to me.
Well you go to global chat or node chat and type "New player looking for guild, still leveling but plan to do hardcore endgame content. PM me"
and until you get someone's interest, you continue your MMORPG journey of leveling and experiencing the world of Vera
I love the fundamentals. Nodes are awesome, augemnts are great, open world sounds amazing, a variety of classes and unique customization should be great, graphics look astounding, and the lead dev has actually played an MMO in the past decade as a player with a team that has experience playing MMOs with a variety of skill levels versus someone who's been a lead developer in the industry for 20+ years beholden to turning a profit for shareholders.
Awesome, heres another question. Will character levels stop you from playing the game?
I've saved 1000s of villages across a multitude of universes from pestilence, werewolves, mad-kings, and goblins. It just isn't interesting to do it for the 1001st time. Again why do I need to have some arbitrary bar fill to enjoy the exploration aspect? It only serves to limit my ability to explore.
And there should be some level of content that scratches that same itch with its own rewards and progression paths. The issue is that I have to do it and I have to do it as my first major experience in the game.
Though as have been stated before, Ashes will have a ton of content not related to your vertical progression. Except it way closer to 0/100 than 20/80. That 20 would only be true if you're a pro fps player, though even then, you'd need 4 of such players to win against 4 top lvl SoT players and even then your win is nowhere near assured, because the top players will know way more tricks and mechanics to outplay you even if you have the fps skill. But that fps skill still required you to play literal thousands of hours of fps games to get, and if you somehow could represent that invested time with a lvl value - you'd be super high lvl (pretty much the ladder system in most current fps games). Except there's countless guilds that accept low lvl players and help them level up or don't even care about their lvls. And as a direct example of that, I'll make a guild like that in AoC. So you're totally fine with spending hundreds of hours getting gear, but not fine with doing THE LITERALLY SAME THING but with a number that also goes up at the same time? And how much time did that 6k rank take that player btw? Could it be that this 6k number IS THE PLAYER'S LVL?!!?!? What a twist! As Dolyem already said, you... socialize in a social game. There'll always be people willing to play with low lvl people, especially in AoC where you vertical lvl won't mean as much as it does in other mmos.
Depends on how it takes for it to be fun. If I'm playing a tank and my abilities and role are locked behind a timewall, it'll probably be pretty boring unless the starting zone has something to keep my interest. And that doesn't refer to saving a village from a graphically beautiful dragon. I've done that before and don't particularly care to do it again.
its a cliché at this point but it needs to be said. This game may not be for you my dude.
Because that's part of any RPG genre ... Ashes included.
Don't like it?
No problem.
There are other posts in your thread, here, that suggest other games that better suit your interests.
Genshin Impact is P2W, but again if you like games designed around that have at it.
NW was a buggy poorly designed mess because they added levels to it. They spent 1-2 years of development time making content that isn't fun, only to neglect what could be the fun part of the game. People bought New World because it's a new MMO and this genre is saturated with people looking for a new game. Leveling didn't help with the retention rate, and I doubt a significant number of people bought new world for the lore.
So if WoW is a bad example, what is a game that is a good example? How long does it take and why is that relevant. DMC is 10 hours long and has a significantly more complex combat system than any MMO is going to have. Why must less complex game have a significantly inflated learning time?
That's great that you say you'll make a guild. However, saying something and doing it for a significant amount of time are two very different things. As someone whos tried playing a few MMOs in the past few months, its difficult to find a guild in a game due to verticle progression.
Your SoT perspective is just conjecture and requires brand new bob with 0 gaming experience vs Chad the pro. In reality there will be more people around the 50 percentile of player skill and you will run into those players more often. So my invested time in other MMOs means i get to skip levels? Cool, where do I apply that to my account and do I have to verify my top 1 percentile ranking in other games?
Grinding gear is different than grinding levels as long as gear customization increases the ability to customize my character to the desired playstyle I want. It also means I'm not restricted in what gear I can grind because nothing is off limits to me because of an arbitrary mechanic like my level.
Hitting 6k took me roughly two years of playtime. The difference between that and leveling is there was nothing stopping me from achieving that besides my own abilities and understanding. Dota didn't gate me at 3k because other people who played for that same amount of time were there.
Are there people always willing to play? Is it a positive experience for both the new player and the veteran to play together? In my experience, the answer to that is no.
It's not just about learning how abilities work, but developing muscle memory for those skills. The last thing you want in the middle of an intense battle is to have to stop and remember which key your CC ability is on. By the time you reach max level you should have all your abilities committed to muscle memory, which is only possible if you use those abilities regularly while levelling.