KingDDD wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Alright, all I've gathered from this is "I don't like spending time leveling a character so the game should change for me". The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition? That's mostly subjective. I find leveling immensely fun. I even like min/maxing characters in different level brackets for pvp like twinking in classic WoW. I love the feeling of accomplishment having several max level characters knowing that not everyone will achieve that. Its just as relevant and fun as upgrading gear, but with levels you are upgrading the character itself. The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels.
Dolyem wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Alright, all I've gathered from this is "I don't like spending time leveling a character so the game should change for me". The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition? That's mostly subjective. I find leveling immensely fun. I even like min/maxing characters in different level brackets for pvp like twinking in classic WoW. I love the feeling of accomplishment having several max level characters knowing that not everyone will achieve that. Its just as relevant and fun as upgrading gear, but with levels you are upgrading the character itself.
KingDDD wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Alright, all I've gathered from this is "I don't like spending time leveling a character so the game should change for me". The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition?
Dolyem wrote: » Alright, all I've gathered from this is "I don't like spending time leveling a character so the game should change for me".
KingDDD wrote: » The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels.
KingDDD wrote: » Which RPGs sell well? Are they single player games or are they MMOs? What is the leveling time for said game and how long is the story-based campaign for it?
KingDDD wrote: » Are you advocating for time to win? The most common complaint about FFXIV is the need to complete the story content. Crowfall was also a TTW game, how'd that go for them?
KingDDD wrote: » I'm sure there is a time investment to play perfectly in Sea of Thieves. However, we could both jump into the game and within a few hours have fun playing together with a statistical chance of beating those who've played for years.
KingDDD wrote: » Does leveling effectively teach you how to play the game? How many people who leveled in Vanilla WoW circa 2005 knew how to play their character compared to what's achievable in Classic?
KingDDD wrote: » You advocate for time to win gameplay. I have a feeling that the vast majority of players on this forum, let alone those who play games, wouldn't agree with this.
Dolyem wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Alright, all I've gathered from this is "I don't like spending time leveling a character so the game should change for me". The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition? That's mostly subjective. I find leveling immensely fun. I even like min/maxing characters in different level brackets for pvp like twinking in classic WoW. I love the feeling of accomplishment having several max level characters knowing that not everyone will achieve that. Its just as relevant and fun as upgrading gear, but with levels you are upgrading the character itself. The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels. You say that like its a bad thing. I love the feeling of running into content that is too high level for me because it gives me something to set a goal to clear once I overcome the lower level content. I have zero need or desire to have the ability to do anything and everything all at once, THAT is bad design for an MMORPG.
KingDDD wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Alright, all I've gathered from this is "I don't like spending time leveling a character so the game should change for me". The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition? That's mostly subjective. I find leveling immensely fun. I even like min/maxing characters in different level brackets for pvp like twinking in classic WoW. I love the feeling of accomplishment having several max level characters knowing that not everyone will achieve that. Its just as relevant and fun as upgrading gear, but with levels you are upgrading the character itself. The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels. You say that like its a bad thing. I love the feeling of running into content that is too high level for me because it gives me something to set a goal to clear once I overcome the lower level content. I have zero need or desire to have the ability to do anything and everything all at once, THAT is bad design for an MMORPG. Its a bad thing if someone cannot do it because their character is statistically not powerful enough. Make the mechanics difficult not the formula. Being locked out of playing with friends is the anthesis of an MMO.
Taleof2Cities wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels. It only took you three (3) pages of self-defense and replies to finally give an example of how you would prefer to level, @KingDDD. Kudos. Now, stand by your words ... because Ashes will definitely have XP gain and leveling through questing/exploration. Just remember that (per Steven Sharif) it's still going to be approximately 225 hours of leveling to get a max character. That's not changing. I saw that you carefully avoided @Nikr's question about having a max level character "given to you on a silver platter". Every player in Ashes will be spending those 225 hours leveling. There will be no exemptions. However, every player certainly has a say in what kind of content they will personally be doing during that time (to get to max level).
Voxtrium wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels. so uhm the augment system that is already planned in AOC, whew glad we cleared this one up... again
NiKr wrote: » Lost Ark is probably the closest thing to what you want, but from pretty much every place I've seen discussing it, its "leveling time" was a meme due to how short it was. Oh, that also led to literal fucking hundreds of thousands of bots, exactly because you could level to max within a few hours and could then participate in top lvl content immediately. Though even that game just moved their insane grind to those max lvls, so functionally nothing changed.
KingDDD wrote: » Why do I have to level if an additional, superior system is already planned for the game? What is leveling accomplishing?
NiKr wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Which RPGs sell well? Are they single player games or are they MMOs? What is the leveling time for said game and how long is the story-based campaign for it? Just rpgs in general. Don't think I've heard of many rpgs where you didn't have a leveling system of some kind. Genshin has several leveling systems, pretty much all based not only on tedious grind, but also on timegates. That game makes over a $billion every 6 months (or at least did on release) and is ultra popular. NW had both vertical and artisanal grind. The game had a mil players on release even after a very weak beta. Lost Ark is probably the closest thing to what you want, but from pretty much every place I've seen discussing it, its "leveling time" was a meme due to how short it was. Oh, that also led to literal fucking hundreds of thousands of bots, exactly because you could level to max within a few hours and could then participate in top lvl content immediately. Though even that game just moved their insane grind to those max lvls, so functionally nothing changed. KingDDD wrote: » Are you advocating for time to win? The most common complaint about FFXIV is the need to complete the story content. Crowfall was also a TTW game, how'd that go for them? FF14 is a story-based rpg, so of course the game would require you to finish the story asap. But afaik there's a ton of stuff that you can do even w/o doing the story. When I tried the game out I got stuck on the damn Gold Saucer for several days, just because it was fun. And if by "time to win" you mean that in order to be better than others you must have invested more time into the game, be it in the form of skill-honing or leveling (which is still skill-honing) - then yes, I want games to not fucking give everyone everything right at the first hour of the game. KingDDD wrote: » I'm sure there is a time investment to play perfectly in Sea of Thieves. However, we could both jump into the game and within a few hours have fun playing together with a statistical chance of beating those who've played for years. Which is exactly why the session-based games exist. You can play them casually at a moment's notice or you can go full hardcore on them. Also, as I said in my comment, you wouldn't really be able to win against hardcore players unless you had years of fps practice. And outside of pure fps skills, ya ain't sinking a ship of a well-trained group of players if you yourself have only played for a few hours. I know that because I've tried many times and failed and then when I got better I started failing way less and understood how a very good group of people could easily beat some casuals w/o breaking a sweat. KingDDD wrote: » Does leveling effectively teach you how to play the game? How many people who leveled in Vanilla WoW circa 2005 knew how to play their character compared to what's achievable in Classic? Leveling helps you ease into the game's mechanics. Others have already said that WoW had a shitty design when it came to how the game taught you to play, so this is a bad example. I expect AoC to provide a better learning experience through leveling and will be giving as much feedback pertaining to that as I can.
KingDDD wrote: » Leveling is not skill honing
KingDDD wrote: » Again how many people in 2005 WoW hit level cap and could play their character to any degree
KingDDD wrote: » Is there an MMO that teaches leveling in an efficient and fun manner without being a timesink?
Dolyem wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Alright, all I've gathered from this is "I don't like spending time leveling a character so the game should change for me". The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition? That's mostly subjective. I find leveling immensely fun. I even like min/maxing characters in different level brackets for pvp like twinking in classic WoW. I love the feeling of accomplishment having several max level characters knowing that not everyone will achieve that. Its just as relevant and fun as upgrading gear, but with levels you are upgrading the character itself. The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels. You say that like its a bad thing. I love the feeling of running into content that is too high level for me because it gives me something to set a goal to clear once I overcome the lower level content. I have zero need or desire to have the ability to do anything and everything all at once, THAT is bad design for an MMORPG. Its a bad thing if someone cannot do it because their character is statistically not powerful enough. Make the mechanics difficult not the formula. Being locked out of playing with friends is the anthesis of an MMO. level with friends...or make friends while leveling. Holy crap, the point of an MMORPG!
KingDDD wrote: » Taleof2Cities wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » The accomplished feeling from leveling can be replaced by other things. For example, god A hates undead. You go to various undead locations across the map purging them and doing a unique storyline. Because of this you gain access to unique variations on your skills, armor sets, mounts, etc themed after god A. You were able to choose something you liked thematically and accomplished tasks that let you benefit from this accomplishment. Conversely in a a leveling system you couldn't do this unless you've hit the level cap because the undead around the world have a variety of levels. It only took you three (3) pages of self-defense and replies to finally give an example of how you would prefer to level, @KingDDD. Kudos. Now, stand by your words ... because Ashes will definitely have XP gain and leveling through questing/exploration. Just remember that (per Steven Sharif) it's still going to be approximately 225 hours of leveling to get a max character. That's not changing. I saw that you carefully avoided @Nikr's question about having a max level character "given to you on a silver platter". Every player in Ashes will be spending those 225 hours leveling. There will be no exemptions. However, every player certainly has a say in what kind of content they will personally be doing during that time (to get to max level). And whats accomplished in that 225 hour investment? If all you want is a gold star next to your name, I'm sure they'll add one to the cash shop.
NiKr wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » You advocate for time to win gameplay. I have a feeling that the vast majority of players on this forum, let alone those who play games, wouldn't agree with this. Yet the absolute majority of answers here disagree with your "I want everything and I want it now, daddy" attitude.
Neurath wrote: » You are so detached from actual AoC plans its kind of unreal. Do you even plan to play Ashes or are you just here for the bridges?
KingDDD wrote: » What makes those players and I have the same skill levels? If player a is terrible, player b and c will have a negative time playing with them. Forced interaction in this scenario won't make any of us have a positive experience. Guilds are the way around this, but unfortunately, they are all high level and I cannot play with them.
