Pros:
- Ability’s look Great !
- Blocking idea is fantastic
Cons/Recommendations
- Auto attacks need to be slower. The swings are to fast.
- More Agro hold capability.
- More survivability, tanks seems to die to quickly. (Squishy)
- More impact on attacks. Monsters to get impacted/staggered visually. Visual effects of weapon clashing against monster or object.
Extremley dissapointing, we are not re inventing the wheel here, please do a couple of dry runs throughout the month so when you do the stream the first 30 minutes are not learning how to play the game, you should not be seeing these skills for the first time if you are presenting it to an audiance, its like leaving your homework till the night before it is due and expecting to get an A with copy and pasted google documents,
There was no need to do an 8 man area with 4 people, we wanted to see how the skills worked how you generated threat, but instead we saw the cleric tanking 90% of the video and stephen doing loot,
Please atleast do a couple of test runs before the stream dates so we can get an understanding of what is actually happening, we dont need to see high levek elite mobs, just tank a level 8 and show off the toolkit, it also makes me extremley worried for any sort of spot test in the near future
KalnazzarMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Something I would like to be added is a prefect timed block synergy for Tanks with good blocking skills a small reward for the whole party putting a debuff on the target for a very short window allowing party members to counterattack [Auto Crit] have it be a unique animation attack for each weapon that players will asthmatically do on the next basic attack.
As a tank main, I have a couple of concerns that mostly parrot those before me but, in short:
1. I said this in the UI chat, too, but I would like to have a list of active enemies and their aggro levels (but maybe this was just disabled to make the stream less cluttered).
2. Maintaining threat as a tank seemed too difficult. People complain that its Steven playing and that he isn't as good as a main would be but even with the regular area mobs the threat would slip from the tank to another player and that seems problematic, especially when the movement of the game is so fluid and the skills have such small effective distances.
3. Speaking of the skills, the small number of them is worrying for me. They were only level 15 but that is 30% to max level and they only had access to 6 skills? And one was equipment dependent (shield bash). What if you want to play as a 2H tank? Not only that but it seemed that the skills available were insufficient to generate and maintain threat among multiple (and sometimes single) enemies.
4. I like the idea of an active, timed block much better than an active, hold block. I do not want to have my gameplay consist of using a skill or two to generate aggro (hopefully) and then holding a button to absorb damage. With a timed block, I can move around, get in some hits, and still absorb damage while having fun.
5. I preferred the fighter and ranger showcases because there was an emphasis on showing off the skills and what they are meant to do. Showing off an entire encounter while quickly peppering in the skills for the class and seeing them used in a random manner does not help me understand the class. Why not do a quick encounter video and a class video separate? And also...
6. As many have said, start scripting these videos. I love hearing Steven get excited and go off on tangents and talk about the game as a whole but when the video is supposed to cover a specific topic, I want to hear about that topic in a measured and thorough way. Again, nothing says you cant drop a technical video and a more "show off an area or encounter" video with lore and tidbits and sneak peeks.
All of those aside, I love the game and all the work that goes into it. I can tell that everyone making it is very excited to be doing the work and that they care about what they are making. Keep up the good work, Intrepid!
For a pre-alpha 2 gameplay stream, the tank role looked absolutely amazing, splendid job. I can't think of 1 game that highlights the satisfaction of tanking in pve like you guys showed us. The overall dynamics of the tank class looked very smooth, it actually looked "fun" to play! Can't wait to see what else the class has to offer in alpha 2. I'm curious to see how effective the tank will be in an open world pvp setting! Obviously, the game has a long way to go, I hope you guys nail it!
I just want to add that the second video was indeed much better due to the initial explanation of the skills,
I hope we can get to testing soon so we can actually give proper feedback, I ask Intrepid to please, keep in mind people often give feedback based on what they think they see, due to the quality of the video/upload, due to the gameplay from the devs, everything can influence and make people say something is bad but if they got to play it the opinion would change, we need to actually test to provide accurate feedback
Just got finished watching the 2nd presentation video you guys uploaded to youtube. Can take some of my first post here and toss it now 2nd presentation was much better. Things were showcased better, definitely got a better sense of where the tank is at.
Trying to focus strictly on the tank and not my other issues I will say my few points. I'm far less concerned now about tank but i guess my main concern now is the active blocking.
I felt the combat looked very fun and all the skills although limited looked fun as heck to use! Then you when you got to the last 2 bosses and started to active block, my excitement largely went out the window...but not all the way out. the active blocking was responsive and I really like the idea of bonus defense or what have you for a "perfect block" but watching that final boss fight was kind of boring. Kudos to you all for having the winning strat to clear an 8 player boss with 4 ppl I suppose, but the tank just stood there and blocked. Tossed out skills every so often but mostly just blocked. Blocking did seem to be very useful at mitigation so thats good, but if that is the style of game play you're going for (which I'm slowly getting on board with) as a player and tank main I need to see it in action with a more full tool kit and the blocking resource in game.
Some ideas that come to mind, there should be a bonus to using active block besides just taking less damage.
- Perfect Block instantly refreshes the nearest skill to come off cool down. Using this tactically to either use a big ability twice in a row, or just get your knock down available 3 seconds sooner would be a lot of fun to time out and actively think about.
- Any active block should increase your threat generated against the target. This would encourage its use when starting fightings or when large groups are all attacking you. Make it easier to hold aggro when you can't be doing damage to build threat.
- Having skills that proc off of perfect blocks. Eg, a critical counter strike that you can only use after a Perfect Block
- Perfect Blocks on enemy melee Skills ( not auto attacks) should have a chance to proc a staggered effect.
- Perfect Block and its bonuses should only work for Tank archetype (much less effective as 2nd archetype)
I really think blocking needs its own resource outside of sprinting/dodging. Even if its only for Tanks. Or even just shields. Shield resource. And executing a Perfect Block should mean using less resource, what ever it ends up being. What ever you do though, don't make Mana or what ever Tanks will use for their attack skills be tied to the blocking resource. They need to be different.
Tanking should be possible, yet far from optimal, without a shield which I think you've shown today but active blocking with a 2h, or off hand item should have diminished returns which they likely do, but not at the cost of Threat Generation or holding Aggro. Those things are core to tanking and shouldn't be diminished because you don't have a shield.
Shield types could possibly change how your block works. Kite and Tower shields could be more blocking type weapons. Bucklers would more for parry type maneuvers. Even if behind the scenes the game thinks they are the same, if animation wise and sound design they'd be more redirects than full blocks, that'd be rad.
Saw someone else comment about having a target list, like FFXIV has. i like the idea in concept but right now I think the UI is in a near perfect state when it comes to clutter. There should be some other way of telling if you have aggro on a unit or not. Simplest form I've seen is color variation in the name plates. But could also be an icon above their heads when you're losing it/lost it/don't have it. If you go the icon route, I would suggest that when an enemy has NO icon above its head would mean you have aggro, only indicate when its being lost rather than when you have it. Keep the screen clean.
Anyways I'll cut it there, again I'll say this 2nd video was much better and I'm less worried. I think you guys are on the right track. Active blocking can certainly be fun if there is enough to do and time to swing as well. I highly recommend looking at that final boss fight from the video and viewing it as too much active blocking, dial it back 40% or so Thanks Intrepid, very excited for the game
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buckwheatMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
The game is looking really good. I like the effects of the shout and how the grass moves, however the spells, weapon hits, etc vfx as others have stated are very overwhelming with the super bright effects and flashiness. Its sometimes very hard to follow what is happening because there is so many "Sun bright colors" Like driving down the road and someone leaves their high beams on kind of effect. I think if the brightness could be turned down on the effects it would feel more natural and less like my retina's are going to explode.
Everything else seems super fluid and functional. If I hadn't been following the game as long as I have, I would have thought this was Beta footage. I can see you all put a lot of thought into placement and functionality and I love that. The player characters look amazing, the NPC's look amazing, the environments look amazing, and the swaying of the grass and trees and environmental effects look amazing. Even the details in the spells and weapons effects look amazing, they just need to not be so overwhelmingly surface of the sun bright.
Having now watched the second pass at the presentation, my feedback remains mostly the same, though the content itself was a bit easier to follow.
It has thankfully confirmed for me that my issues with the current flow are not necessarily misunderstandings or reactions to Steven's original flow, they are fundamental concerns I have about the game's combat gameplay loop.
But, since people have generally had a positive reaction to that when not taking the 'I didn't really get to see much' stance, I'll assume that the new showcase will be fine and exciting for them.
Basically, original feedback stands, and I am somewhat saddened that the re-record was necessary (did y'all just lose footage the first time? Should probably have just told us that instead of 'technical difficulties', transparency and we'd understand, after all).
This one also gave a lot of unrelated tidbits of information that I'm sure to be poking around at with my many opinions, but I may not be able to get my Paladin to give feedback soon/necessarily at all, he watched the first and may not be interested enough to make time to watch the second (instead of just getting analysis from me) and we prefer not to give feedback on videos without watching them.
Hopefully he'll be on by, but for now, thank you and good job to the Intrepid team. My spark of joy has not been rekindled, but this phoenix's blaze seems to be for another.
How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?
I like the idea around it so far. Should be interesting seeing the diversity around the synergy and builds with the different schools for the various situations that call for it.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
I like how the volatile magic builds up around the user for the courage and trails with movement. It's not too over the top but subtle enough for definition. The versatility of the resource as a stacking buff offers unique choices at times.
What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
A block with a shield is not the same as a block with 2h. I imagine regardless of mitigation, you'll take a fraction more of the damage compared to blocking with a shield? the trade off is damage/stagger vs defence? Does tank archetype receive bonus to this? or should it be universally less for all classes that choose to block with the held item that is not a shield.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
With the synergy and progression of status effects in the combat system, I am looking forward to visual queues for the UI to display status effects and possibly procedurals depending on class design.
I do like that in games when you're under the effect of certain status effects that it present on the ui relatively for visual queues such as near death, standing in fire, the screen shows a burning effect or embers, frost with ice/frozen etc.
In the event resources get added in for active blocking, you can also visually show this on the UI from fatigue build up, stagger meter, loss of stamina/magic etc.
I'm ignoring Steven's gameplay and transposing how I think these abilities would function in a live, balanced environment, mechanically.
Direction of Tanks:
Jesus Christ, I am on my knees begging, remove Active Blocking now, or get ready to remove it in the first round of persistent testing after overwhelming negative feedback. Active Blocking only works in full action games where it is a mechanic everyone engages with, not as a form of damage mitigation. Functionally, it is no different than a short duration buff that applies the same mitigation. But the ability feels rewarding, and doesn't interrupt pressing your other really cool rotational abilities. This is relevant even if all classes can block, how boring it is to just hold a block button vs. other interesting abilities to fight off incoming damage. Guard break abilities, bashes, etc. make active blocking work in other full action games, but this is very clearly not a full action game.
Aegis is a neat idea, but positional mitigation like that is better relegated to gimmicks in individual fights (see:Sha of Fear fight in WoW). Otherwise, you'll have to either design ALL fights around assuming it's usage(for good or ill) and hint, it's been tried in other MMOs. It's a pain.
Abilities:
Off GCD damage reduction! Yay! Ability combos, yay! Names of the abilities? What the hell!
It feels like the team is trying REALLY hard not to name the abilities the same thing as in other MMOs, to the detriment of actively describing their function. When I saw the name Shield Assault, at no point did I assume it would have a mobility component. My first thought upon seeing the animation was second hand embarrassment as I wondered why it wasn't named Shield Charge. The names of the other abilities felt similarly uninspired-- It feels like the developers haven't established a thread of identity to develop Tank around. Shield use is a good foundation, but then we go between Grit and it's blue flames, a 'bellow' that is animated as a stomp, and a weapon swing. Shield+Any of these would be a good point to lean into. If we want vocals to be the realm of bards, then the bellow could be reframed as physical might/determination in line with Grit. Rename it Ground Crack, and frame it as the tank planting their feet with great force.
But please don't name abilities awkwardly for the sake of not having them named the same as another game, unless it's a legal problem(doubtful). Here's the unfortunate reality: Let's warp to a year post launch. Shield Assault made it to launch. I call it Shield Charge, because that's what it is and that's what it does. My cotank calls it Shield Charge. Nobody in my guild corrects me, if they even know the ability's name. A friend who heard this makes a Tank alt, and is surprised the ability isn't actually named Shield Charge. Their first thought? "What were they thinking when they named this ability Shield Assault??"
It sounds like a self buff that amplifies the effects of attacks that use your shield. Maybe something that forgoes defense for offense? Just look at how people refer to this ability in this thread.
Weapon Animations:
I could not for the life of me tell you what these animations looked like. There was too much going on. The hit-stops looked fine during some swings, but it feels a little odd to see those for other players-- I only really need to know when my swings hit, right? I can't really give feedback beyond that, but animation tuning is its own issue.
Misc.
I am particularly excited by the inclusion of oGCD abilities at this stage of development. I've said previously that oGCD weaving is my favorite part of combat in other games.
I think it is important to look at the development direction of other games and think about WHY it went that way. Especially with tanks, and how the threat generation has been treated. Tanks generate threat, but it is always more the concern of DPS than tanks. Threat never gets balanced to a knife's edge. It ends up as something tanks generate practically for free. Mitigation ends up becoming significantly easier, from gearing to ability usage. We don't have the full kit yet, of course, but it doesn't feel like the developers are looking at things like how tank design has gone the same direction in so many MMOs. It doesn't feel like we're learning from the past, just doomed to retread the same old design directions because another team thinks they can do it right this time. Ending up with the same shortage of tanks, followed by accessibility changes to alleviate that issue. Bad tank design is arguably worse for every player of the game beyond just tanks.
This is the first stream that had made me doubt the direction of the project. I would prefer to believe that this presentation was rushed, and that more time in the oven would improve things, but to a heavy degree it feels like class/combat design is directionless and uninspired. I don't know what adjective I'm supposed to associate with the Tank class, or with the feel of the combat. What excites me is how much raw progress we are seeing, and how much time there is for more change. I look forward to the day we can look back at this showcase and go, "Wow, look how much things have changed for the better since then."
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DralayMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This was not a very good showcase of the tank class in my opinion. I think you should have just set up dummies and shown the abilities off separately then maybe do the group combat.
1. The active blocking is questionable I think it slows the class down way too much and forces you to be a right-click and hold afk class if you want to be efficient. Why not just have an active ability that is your bread and butter that's on a short cooldown but can greatly reduce the damage it keeps your class moving?
2. Overall the abilities did not look as smooth as some of the other classes that we have seen to date.
3. This is less Tank related but I could not but notice that All AI in this game really needs some work mobs have no life to them they afk sit in one spot and hit. They need to have dodge, drop back and aoe abilities that add to the challenge.
1. Active block seems to fail with current combat direction. With the intensity of attacks and general dynamic of combat it seems really pointless especially when while blocking you do not generate threat. I'd rather have passive blocking, especially since you guys seem to follow Lineage 2 blocking formula where shield armour is added to your's only on block. To make active blocking work you'd have to slow down fight dynamic and incentivize blocking in a way, for example by adding counter mechanics where attacks or abilities generate additional threat after blocking, and a large amount of it.
2. Aegis - the whole idea is nice but it needs to be capped at some health levels else it's a suicide ability and needs some fine tuning possibly with the talent tree. It should provide some additional mitigation on top of the tank's. Seeing how it's gnawing at tank's health when multiple targets take AoE damage is ridicules and protecting from AoE seems to be its purpose on the first place so it completely defeats the idea of the skill. Here's my idea: Aegis in its base form reduces damage taken by targets behind the tank by 30% and 10% of the damage taken AFTER MITIGATION is transferred to tank which again gets MITIGATED by the tank's defences. Meaning it double dips on mitigation. The ability doesn't expire BUT stops transferring damage if the tank is at 50% health or below.
Aegis +1 - Tank receives 30% increased healing while Aegis is active and shield block blocks additional 50% damage.
Aegis +2 - Any healing cast on you while channelling the ability affects other protected targets at 25% of the value.
3. Pull - It needs to generate more threat or passively increase threat generation for a few seconds after being used.. Since we will have combo classes I am against having an ever active passive ability that increases threat generation just because you're "tank", but tanks need to be given some mechanics to work around.
Pull+ 1 - Your threat generation increases by 200% for 5 seconds. Attacks generate additional 100% threat against pulled target for the duration.
Pull +2 - Pull's cooldown is reduced by 1 second for every enemy enemy killed by you or your party member within your vicinity. Threat buff is increased by 50% if used on boss-class monsters.
4. Double slash - again really plain skill with really nothing to it. It could have been warrior's, rouge's or heck even ranger's close quarter ability. It definitely needs some flavour. Put it on a longer cooldown that's like 10 seconds so it can't be used as a DPS ability but then make this cooldown reduced by 1 second every time you block or parry. Then add some flavour to it via upgrades. for example.
Double Slash +1 - Block/Parry next 2 melee attacks after using the ability. Increases threat dealt to the monsters attacking you by 100%. This effect is increased to 150% if you are not the target.
Double Slash +2 - Increases damage by 30% if performed 2 seconds after a block or parry.
5. Shout - 15 second cooldown. Adds a certain flat amount of threat to nearby targets (Like Lineage 2 Hate Aura). Enemies that weren't attacking you are forced to attack you for the next 3 seconds.
Shout +1 - Extends the range of the ability and increases threat generated.
Shout +2 - Reduces the damage you take from affected enemies by 10% for 5 seconds.
6. Grit - this one was outright bad. There's too many trade offs for the benefits it provides, even with the vague "courage" explanation we've got. I'd say ca p it at 25% mitigation and keep movement speed reduction. Add damage reflection factor to it that's increased by courage. Lets say whenever you use the ability it depletes all the courage you've mustered and adds 0.2% of damage reflection for every point of courage (assuming courage is capped at 100).
Grit +1 - Using shout while grit is active generates 5 courage points for every affected enemy. Additional courage will be depleted at the speed of 10 per second to extend the duration of Grit beyond its base duration.
Grit +2 - Activating Grit grants you a protective shield for 5 seconds equal to 0.2% of your total health for every point of courage used.
I'm not seeing much 'action' DNA in this iteration of the combat system.
In a traditional MMO, you're watching the action from as far away as possible. It's a very fast-paced tactical experience where you're surveying the entire battle with a huge selection of very specific and abstract abilities at your disposal. It's all about rotations, cooldowns, resource management, and the like. The camera angle necessitates relatively huge VFX tells, and the large number of abilities/mechanics requires a lot of UI to manage properly. This is mostly what we see in AoC.
In an action game, by contrast, you're in the dirt with your character - the camera is very up close and personal. You have a limited set of grounded abilities which have very general application across many situations (parry, heavy attack, dodge, etc). It's all about simulating a fight, complete with footwork, stamina, timing, and the like. UI and VFX are kept to a minimum, with character animations being used extensively to convey information to the player.
What I'm seeing with AoC is just a traditional tab targeting system with a small ability pool, split body movement, and a slightly more zoomed in camera. VFX and UI are the primary method of communication with the player, you're still quite far from the action (by necessity), and your abilities are extremely abstract and specialized - despite being limited in number.
That's why held block feels so out of place. It's a mechanic transposed from an entirely different style of combat. I understand the appeal of a hybrid system, but when it's a hybrid between such completely opposite philosophies, I don't see how it can shake out into something cohesive.
How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?
I feel like that was the worst livestream until now. And what I saw about the tank archetype in particular was disappointing and I can really not understand how anyone here can rate this stream positively.
While I like active blocking, there shod be some mechanic behind it and not just "you can press a key to block", something with stamina, or a bonus when you're blocking at the right time or whatever. In addition it was again super chaotic and again Steven didn't do a good job explaining the class and playing the class.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
Nice ideas I have to admit.
In general: the animations are too much over the top, too flashy and especially that warhammer slash animation graphic is so much over the top. I would really wish aoc wouldn't look like a jrpg.
- Quest journal/quest tracker looks great
- Dred need to be promoted to GM or has GM in his name poor dred :P
- Ferguson is imposter GM dont think i dont see that :P
- Footsteps seem a little loud, might be design wise so people can hear u sneaking up i guess, footstep sound between walking on path and grass sounds good
- river sound i think need to have a further range/heardistance
- '1 Redwood lumber' hmm im not sure if thats a lumber :P or something else entirely :P not sure if u planned the 1 wood drop then 2 stone drops right after :P
- Need for green roll system seems good, nothing new here but looks clean
- backpack i like the tabs for inventory/materials/quest items sections makes thins easier to manage aswell as see what items can drop on death with the materials section being in it own section, some nice filter/sort system too inplace it seems aswell which is nice
- hammer 3rd chain upper cut attack might be a little to quick but gameplay wise it probaly better so i cant realy judge to much here without having my hands on the game
- Noticed there doesnt seem to be an indicator on group mobs however might be design decission and im not fussed since i grew up on EQ and mob difficulty was a con and try and see what happens which im fine with some WoW era players may freak out a bit when they notice but honostly i like it but figured i would comment on it
- Tanks could do with a taunt ability that flat out pulls agro for a duration but has a long cooldown for emergency use :P doesnt neccesarily gain you threat but it more a on fuck button so dps relise they need 2 hold dmg for tank to store up threat
- I quite like the threat range distance it further than in alot of most game so it doesnt make the mobs look like there blind :P i wouldnt mind some mobs having longer agro range if there facing you though
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1. The shield + hammer combo looked great, although the shield looked very integral to the whole concept. I have hard time imagining how a tank could function without a shield, as was previously hinted.
2. It seems that mana is still the primary resource for all characters. I believe that to be an outdated concept: it can definitely work, but makes different archetypes and classes bland and uniform. I would love to see more emphasis on unique resources with different resource management (Bravery for tanks, or previously Holy Charges for cleric), at the very least for non-healers.
3. Biggest point of concern for me was when Steven said during the showcase (paraphrasing) "you are not seeing the high level refined abilities, that's why it can feel little clunky, we have a low level group". I really hope doing level-appropriate content on tank, or any other character won't feel clunky. Progression to the top should be as enjoyable as the top itself. Anything else can be a powerful deterrent.
I will say one thing with feedback on combat stuff is it actualy realy hard to give good feedback here without access to the game sadly we can say things look cool or not but when it comes down to the feel of combat which is in essence the most important aspect of it we cant realy make a good assessment of that sadly, so thing might be one way (like i didnt like how hammer 3rd chain felt faster visualy but slowing it down might be bad for combat feel and if thats the case i rather the keep the faster swing on that chain to keep the better gameplay feel.
So alot of my combat feedback is gonna have to wait till i can get access to the game to realy see how it feels.
the ui stuff though im realy liking it clean and simple with tabs in the backpack was realy nice especially with separate spot for materials so u can see easily what ur risking on death.
i feel you might be going over the top with sparks and effects on basic attacks though to much flashy lights and thing make it harder to see the important things and basic attacks dont need to be super flashing and sparkly. Overboard spell effects should be use for big hitting skills that you realy dont want to be hit by or attacks u want to hit if your the one doing them
A lot of mechanics need to be polished (example: you shouldn't be able to drag all bosses using that tank spell, moving around looks like sliding on ice, etc.).
Overall, the first image for a pve tank is not a good one(maybe is "decent" for some pve content). The tank doesn't really look like the main threat and needs to be buffed. Tank effects should be more visible and less flashy.
I got some suggestions.
The spell diversity is ok BUT I would like an aoe cc that is more impactful in engages. I want to cover a good distance doing the dash and then jumping or sliding aoe stun so I can catch on the wrong foot the enemy zerg(you can also add resistance buffs depending on how many people you hit with the spell). Being slow and just taking hits waiting for the enemy to literally body slam me so I can do something... well... that's just not balanced.
Another good tank spell would be the one that grabs every enemy from 5/10 feet around you and brings them close to you(maybe add a taunt effect to pve). So I can jump inside the enemy zerg and do a big clump, call it, and If the tank-dps synergy works, we get some kills.
The areas look amazing. Nature is breathing, and you can see and feel it even by watching behind the screen. Skill VFX on the ground and surroundings are noticeable and great (Maybe you can make them last longer). The VFX skills themselves appear to be quite good, but I believe there is still room for improvement. Their kits and buffs are fair and decent. The enemies look so good; I love them. Their appearance and skills are fantastic; however, despite the amazing areas and enemies, some of the enemies simply do not fit the areas. The animation between some skills (Not all; some are perfect.) doesn't feel smooth, especially when skills are followed with basic attacks (Maybe it is intended to be that way). I believe the SFX could use some improvement; they sound harsh to ears. I believe the damage, healing, and mitigation numbers could also use some improvement. And lastly, I really think it is important that the names above the players and enemies look appropriate/suitable for the game. What I mean by it is that for now, they really feel odd to the world. (The funny part is that I can't tell what is wrong with them.) Thank you for everything Steven and the AoC team have done in trying to make this glorious genre and its glorious community come alive and breathe again.
The feedback we are giving to intrepid and Steven may differ but it’s good telling them our opinions . They are getting better and better and they hear our perspectives.
The second video was much better ngl.
Still some vfx and animations need to get tuned down or polished cuz you can’t follow the combat with all that together . Imagine fighting 20-30 ppl with those vfx , it would be a shit show 😂.
Also the weapons slash animation need more weight depending on the weapon and they way the character hold the great sword when out of combat it feels like it’s made out of feathers .
Other than these things , thank you Steven and intrepid for your hard work keep it up !
Ps the UI seems amazing 🤩
I would like to only hard point out the Aegis ability. Skills like this can either break or make the class.
I have played games, were a "Bodyguard" like ability could be used on ally and it transfered received damage to the tank, but any mitigation of the tank was ignored. So no matter what damage the target received, the tank would receive the exact same. This basically made the tank die like a sacrifical pawn. (Bad design in my eyes)
Then there were games where any mitigation of the tank was added into the calculation of what damage was transfered. Creating a possible double invincible situation, where tank uses "Bodyguard" and for example 90% damage reduction for 5 seconds. Now I am already very biased against super high damage mitigation(Like 70-80% and higher), and absolutely loathe complete damage mitigation tank buffs(0 damage received).
I have no ideal solution honestly for the matter, I only have my experience to share from extremes on both ends. Maybe add possibly a condition where if tank hits 1 HP, it deactivates the skill and gives the tank 3 seconds of immunity to death(not invincibility) to give a timeframe to be healed up.
This skill by logic should be used in preparation for something incoming, but if the tank dies(no mitigation) because of it almost at all times or a mechanic/part of the game is ignored(too much mitigation) because of it then it is bad design either way in my eyes.
Because... To me it kinda feels counterproductive to have a shield activate for allies behind me that only works for melee range. I mean by MMORPG standard, tanks usually rotate the targets around so they don't cleave into the party. Why exactly would anyone walk into melee distance behind the tank if not for something in preparation?
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Then the skill that is completed already in my eyes and is a perfect bread and butter of the tank is the Grit.
This skill is literaly perfect, it is not indefinitely stacked for braindead gameplay, it needs preparation by using skills at appropriate intervals to allow stacking during fight, it needs timed execution to make the best use of it.
However, it can be also just used constantly if you want to take it lazier, more casual.
This skill is precious, keep it safe and don't let it change.
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The active block... I still just don't feel it, it does not fit. Especially without any resource tied to it or whatever.
I do give that you cannot just hold block at all times in Pve, because then you lose aggro. But when we remove the threat from the calculation(PvP), then what is going to happen? People just holding their shield for free when panic or cooldowns, etc.
There needs to be some hard refactoring to it, or just removing completely and let stats speak for themselves or have skills that sync up with shields.
Like a skill giving 3 stacks of block that reduces damage by 30%
A skill that makes you unable to move, but you block every incoming attack for the next 5 seconds of duration.
A skill that increases your block mitigation for a short time.
Literally anything that is not just: "I hold my shield, i move around, I get less damage for no effort".
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At 19-20 minutes mark of the remade showcase, you guys were talking about the Tank role and it is fantasy. Then it was brought up that once threat is removed from the situation(PvP), then tanks are usually ignored if not always, and you will try to change this. I would like to say thank you for understanding how a tank is meant to be. The role of the class has been under utilized for long enough especially in PvP.
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Some small bit, you either need to tone down the mob aggro range or increase the pull range. I feel like the pull loses it is very initiative meaning if all mobs run at you before being able to cast it anyway. Obviously it still has it is meaning to get a mob away from the healer for example, but I think the initiative feature is the most commonly used idea of the skill.
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Regarding the showcase,
I would say always showcase/hover over and explain the skills at the beginning. The on stream showcase had me confused as things get explained too rapidly in the midst of combat and have no chance to read skill description, nor it is read out.
People complain about Steven and the Dev team dying, but I can guarantee that 80% at the least of them are just looking into the mirror while trying to tell themselves "I would do better".
Love the tank design really good with the double-edged sword skill Aegis you mitigate dmg but also put yourself in even more danger as a tank. Active block seems fine to me, I think the animation lock everyone is complaining about every time is a must. That is something you have in every game the thing is you need to know when you have your window to attack, the best example is Elden ring you can kill everything with everything if you know when to lock yourself in the animation. That's my Point on the Tank.
6. Grit - this one was outright bad. There's too many trade offs for the benefits it provides, even with the vague "courage" explanation we've got. I'd say ca p it at 25% mitigation and keep movement speed reduction. Add damage reflection factor to it that's increased by courage. Lets say whenever you use the ability it depletes all the courage you've mustered and adds 0.2% of damage reflection for every point of courage (assuming courage is capped at 100).
Grit +1 - Using shout while grit is active generates 5 courage points for every affected enemy. Additional courage will be depleted at the speed of 10 per second to extend the duration of Grit beyond its base duration.
Grit +2 - Activating Grit grants you a protective shield for 5 seconds equal to 0.2% of your total health for every point of courage used.
The trade offs only come into place if you have the grit at all times activated(If you can even call this a bad trade off for a tank lmao). Because then you have:
Now, if you have your Grit up at all times it is plain up "not ideal" in your eyes. But for your average player it is perfectly fine.
But... If you know the mechanics, the skills and what is to come, and you are willing to turn on and off the skill. Then you have:
- 30% damage reduction for the moment you want the skill to be executed.
- Movement speed reduction does not matter, because you use the skill just to reduce certain damage incoming.
- Your reduction in damage dealt does not matter because the window of Grit is too short.
It is a skill of preparation and proper execution. It is a perfect skill to draw a very-very-very-very clear line between a good and average/bad tank.
What you are asking above is a braindead functionality of the skill at all times, just to make the tank stronger for no reason.
How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?
Considering Steven did not a good job tanking and for whatever reason you decided to play with 4 people in an 8 people area and we dont know how active blocking looks like there really isnt much to assess here since we only saw content that is subject to change in terms of synergy.
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What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
Steven did not a good job explaining or showcasing the abilities as apparently intended so I have no thoughts on this other than please let someone else showcase archtypes in the future and Steven run along in the background and make it more of a scripted video.
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What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream? Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
The warhammer animations look too cartoonish compared to the other weapons. The shield and blocking was visually fine but again why did you show it if you dont even know how active blocking is going to work? Also I find it confusing that other new content like lorestones (or whatever they are called I cant remember) are getting shadow dropped midstream without much explanation.
The poor quality of the video was inexcusable and even then it was too long and too much of the same. If it was live gameplay it would have been fine but for something prerecorded it was really, really bad.
I would enjoy it more if instead of monthly showcases you would do bi-monthly ones with more scripted and condensed gameplay videos that respect peoples time and maturity. Your core audience watching the streams are people thata re already heavily invested in MMOs and into the games development not people that are new to gaming and dont know whats going on.
Seen another video on youtube. The second video/run was much better. I loved Aegis and Grit. I also loved how to the grass/flowers are affected by the skills. Makes the whole vibe much better. I still find the tank is too limited but there were only 6 skills available. I feel the gameplay is rather slow much like Pantheon. I'm not sure why we've moved from fast combat in A1 to slower combat in A2.
However, the combat is much better now than the quick time combat at Pax. There are still issues with the basic weapon attacks which I keep having to point out. They are too fast and seem too floaty. Like fan manoeuvres from a Geisha. The problem relates to all basic attacks. I would prefer to see some other weapon attacks than just the basic weapon attacks. Q spam seems to have returned. Also, why are the skills moving the toon forward again? I thought we managed to remedy the forced movement forward in A1.
Would be excellent to get an opposite stance to grit. Thus, the two stances would be created - One defensive and one offensive. Aegis should be perfect for situational and positional awareness. I don't feel Aegis should be changed to an aura for use in more situations. I'm pleased formations weren't shown and hope formations are scrapped. I'm quite attached to the tank archetype after the improved video and I love that Courage acts like rage. Too bad the tank archetype doesn't stagger all damage and turn the damage into dots with a cleanse yet though. The deaths of the team were much appreciated rather than the usual dev cheats. It helps us understand the current strengths and weaknesses.
I still feel the combat is too static and that the combat is still to predictable. In the horrid stream the chaos highlighted the tank limitations but in the new version the static dispositions highlighted the combat limitations. The AI needs to be improved and the general game play needs to be more fluid and less static. The slower pace should come from the general combat and not because everything has been given cast times. Instant casts are much preferred like A1 and should be reinstated for A2. TTK can come from other areas other than cast times for skills. The instant cast spells should cost more mana, there is no urgency in mana protection/conservation. The Cleric needs more attack skills to use in between heals - the mana regen enables such a practice but the class lacks the abilities. I was first sold on cleric due to the heal/damage combos but these seems to have been shelved.
We need less flashy animations and more animations from the arms/hands with spit body. I know we can use sliders for the skill effects but we should also be able to create beauty. Right now, everything overloads everything else and the fighter hammer still looks atrocious. The javelin pull reminds me of my Black Guard in Warhammer online and I love the ramifications in pvp. I feel the tank is heading in the right direction and I feel the tank can be perfected. We want the need to dodge more and play around threats. Right now, it feels like tank and spank with a tank ill equipped to hold multiple targets. The shield bash needs a longer range and a second charge would also be beneficial. Right now, i feel that positioning and threat management are secondary to active block and static dispositions.
I feel the xp per kill for an elite mob needs to be increased. I didn't get to see the xp gain in the video but in A1 the xp gain from elites was equal to xp gain from non elites which needs to be remedied. I realise the showcase was a class showcase and not a content showcase. The end results will be glorious when the updates have been made and the spare resources are harnessed.
Edit: Age of Conan used to have sprint and block on stamina when stamina was also used for active skills. It was a death sentence and was rarely ever used. It is much advised not to have active block use mana but to use stamina. I realise the feedback is earlier than A2 but I see no reason not to advise.
Firts of all, the quality of the stream was bad, no need to say much since you realized, but the information showcased was good, we got a good look at party play, that even in its early stage looked fun to me.
Now, feedback on the tank:
- Aegis, this skill has a design flaw, I'm sure many pointed it out already, you want to tank monsters away from the group, which makes this skill super situational, we will rarely see it used, but if it were to provide a small mitigation, or if the directional requeriment was removed turning the skill in some kind of aura it would become very useful.
- Shield assault, nothinh to complain about this skill, but the game class system is supposed to give you freedom to build whatever tank you like, and this skill so far looks absolutely mandatory making shield a mandatory slot for tnaks, there should be an alternative skill or an skill upgrade that allows you to use it without a shield.
- Grit, this skill is perfect, you trade damage and mobility for survability, using this skill correctly will make the difference between good and bad tanks, but, I sure hope this is not the only courage spender, having an oposite aura to this one to increase damage while sacrificing survability would be interesting, especially in off tanking, a third one that provides mitigation to the group would also be great.
- Grapple, this needs to be a viable skill for pulling, shouldn't be resisted, at least on the first use against the target, this skill would do better with threat generation but that also creates the risk of it being spammed creating unnecesary enemy movement during the battle, so instead giving it a root effect that gives the tank time to build threat would be a better option, the animation... the javelin animation from alpha1 was perfect, just use that.
- Active block, this will make me be tank main or completely avoid tanking, if it is unlimited it will make tanks block as much as possible, that's not fun, if it uses mana, then blocking will force a gameplay with less skills and more normal attacks, so mostly right and left clicking for most of the battle which sounds not fun to me, it should instead use its own resource.
- Perfect block, this was just an idea and I love it, not for normal attacks tho, FFXIV has a mechanic called "tank buster" special skills designed to kill tanks, tanks have to use their strongest mitigation when these skills are comming, using perfect block in a similar fashion would be perfect, even tho if the "tank busters" are not correctly indicated it can lead to frustration and unnecesary wipes, so keep that in mind.
- Tank/tank, Steven said this was the best tank, and that worries me, I would understand if you said that it has the best mitigation across all the tank classes, but I don't think there should be something that is the "best", the point of the class system should be to make classes different, not better or worse, if being tank main means I'll be stuck to the tank/tank class to be effective, then I don't want to be a tank, so don't take freedom away with meta.
If a block ability (or many) blocks a 20% of incoming damage, a perfect timed block can absorb more, like 30/40%.
An easy approach to consider if a block is going to be perfect can be if it is activated when the enemy damaging ability has ended the animation prior to fire and not before.
So not when is landing but when is being fired (I think it's easier for latency issues to have that time frame window).
Comments
- Ability’s look Great !
- Blocking idea is fantastic
Cons/Recommendations
- Auto attacks need to be slower. The swings are to fast.
- More Agro hold capability.
- More survivability, tanks seems to die to quickly. (Squishy)
- More impact on attacks. Monsters to get impacted/staggered visually. Visual effects of weapon clashing against monster or object.
There was no need to do an 8 man area with 4 people, we wanted to see how the skills worked how you generated threat, but instead we saw the cleric tanking 90% of the video and stephen doing loot,
Please atleast do a couple of test runs before the stream dates so we can get an understanding of what is actually happening, we dont need to see high levek elite mobs, just tank a level 8 and show off the toolkit, it also makes me extremley worried for any sort of spot test in the near future
This ^
Liked the stream.
1. I said this in the UI chat, too, but I would like to have a list of active enemies and their aggro levels (but maybe this was just disabled to make the stream less cluttered).
2. Maintaining threat as a tank seemed too difficult. People complain that its Steven playing and that he isn't as good as a main would be but even with the regular area mobs the threat would slip from the tank to another player and that seems problematic, especially when the movement of the game is so fluid and the skills have such small effective distances.
3. Speaking of the skills, the small number of them is worrying for me. They were only level 15 but that is 30% to max level and they only had access to 6 skills? And one was equipment dependent (shield bash). What if you want to play as a 2H tank? Not only that but it seemed that the skills available were insufficient to generate and maintain threat among multiple (and sometimes single) enemies.
4. I like the idea of an active, timed block much better than an active, hold block. I do not want to have my gameplay consist of using a skill or two to generate aggro (hopefully) and then holding a button to absorb damage. With a timed block, I can move around, get in some hits, and still absorb damage while having fun.
5. I preferred the fighter and ranger showcases because there was an emphasis on showing off the skills and what they are meant to do. Showing off an entire encounter while quickly peppering in the skills for the class and seeing them used in a random manner does not help me understand the class. Why not do a quick encounter video and a class video separate? And also...
6. As many have said, start scripting these videos. I love hearing Steven get excited and go off on tangents and talk about the game as a whole but when the video is supposed to cover a specific topic, I want to hear about that topic in a measured and thorough way. Again, nothing says you cant drop a technical video and a more "show off an area or encounter" video with lore and tidbits and sneak peeks.
All of those aside, I love the game and all the work that goes into it. I can tell that everyone making it is very excited to be doing the work and that they care about what they are making. Keep up the good work, Intrepid!
I hope we can get to testing soon so we can actually give proper feedback, I ask Intrepid to please, keep in mind people often give feedback based on what they think they see, due to the quality of the video/upload, due to the gameplay from the devs, everything can influence and make people say something is bad but if they got to play it the opinion would change, we need to actually test to provide accurate feedback
Trying to focus strictly on the tank and not my other issues I will say my few points. I'm far less concerned now about tank but i guess my main concern now is the active blocking.
I felt the combat looked very fun and all the skills although limited looked fun as heck to use! Then you when you got to the last 2 bosses and started to active block, my excitement largely went out the window...but not all the way out. the active blocking was responsive and I really like the idea of bonus defense or what have you for a "perfect block" but watching that final boss fight was kind of boring. Kudos to you all for having the winning strat to clear an 8 player boss with 4 ppl I suppose, but the tank just stood there and blocked. Tossed out skills every so often but mostly just blocked. Blocking did seem to be very useful at mitigation so thats good, but if that is the style of game play you're going for (which I'm slowly getting on board with) as a player and tank main I need to see it in action with a more full tool kit and the blocking resource in game.
Some ideas that come to mind, there should be a bonus to using active block besides just taking less damage.
- Perfect Block instantly refreshes the nearest skill to come off cool down. Using this tactically to either use a big ability twice in a row, or just get your knock down available 3 seconds sooner would be a lot of fun to time out and actively think about.
- Any active block should increase your threat generated against the target. This would encourage its use when starting fightings or when large groups are all attacking you. Make it easier to hold aggro when you can't be doing damage to build threat.
- Having skills that proc off of perfect blocks. Eg, a critical counter strike that you can only use after a Perfect Block
- Perfect Blocks on enemy melee Skills ( not auto attacks) should have a chance to proc a staggered effect.
- Perfect Block and its bonuses should only work for Tank archetype (much less effective as 2nd archetype)
I really think blocking needs its own resource outside of sprinting/dodging. Even if its only for Tanks. Or even just shields. Shield resource. And executing a Perfect Block should mean using less resource, what ever it ends up being. What ever you do though, don't make Mana or what ever Tanks will use for their attack skills be tied to the blocking resource. They need to be different.
Tanking should be possible, yet far from optimal, without a shield which I think you've shown today but active blocking with a 2h, or off hand item should have diminished returns which they likely do, but not at the cost of Threat Generation or holding Aggro. Those things are core to tanking and shouldn't be diminished because you don't have a shield.
Shield types could possibly change how your block works. Kite and Tower shields could be more blocking type weapons. Bucklers would more for parry type maneuvers. Even if behind the scenes the game thinks they are the same, if animation wise and sound design they'd be more redirects than full blocks, that'd be rad.
Saw someone else comment about having a target list, like FFXIV has. i like the idea in concept but right now I think the UI is in a near perfect state when it comes to clutter. There should be some other way of telling if you have aggro on a unit or not. Simplest form I've seen is color variation in the name plates. But could also be an icon above their heads when you're losing it/lost it/don't have it. If you go the icon route, I would suggest that when an enemy has NO icon above its head would mean you have aggro, only indicate when its being lost rather than when you have it. Keep the screen clean.
Anyways I'll cut it there, again I'll say this 2nd video was much better and I'm less worried. I think you guys are on the right track. Active blocking can certainly be fun if there is enough to do and time to swing as well. I highly recommend looking at that final boss fight from the video and viewing it as too much active blocking, dial it back 40% or so
The game is looking really good. I like the effects of the shout and how the grass moves, however the spells, weapon hits, etc vfx as others have stated are very overwhelming with the super bright effects and flashiness. Its sometimes very hard to follow what is happening because there is so many "Sun bright colors" Like driving down the road and someone leaves their high beams on kind of effect. I think if the brightness could be turned down on the effects it would feel more natural and less like my retina's are going to explode.
Everything else seems super fluid and functional. If I hadn't been following the game as long as I have, I would have thought this was Beta footage. I can see you all put a lot of thought into placement and functionality and I love that. The player characters look amazing, the NPC's look amazing, the environments look amazing, and the swaying of the grass and trees and environmental effects look amazing. Even the details in the spells and weapons effects look amazing, they just need to not be so overwhelmingly surface of the sun bright.
It has thankfully confirmed for me that my issues with the current flow are not necessarily misunderstandings or reactions to Steven's original flow, they are fundamental concerns I have about the game's combat gameplay loop.
But, since people have generally had a positive reaction to that when not taking the 'I didn't really get to see much' stance, I'll assume that the new showcase will be fine and exciting for them.
Basically, original feedback stands, and I am somewhat saddened that the re-record was necessary (did y'all just lose footage the first time? Should probably have just told us that instead of 'technical difficulties', transparency and we'd understand, after all).
This one also gave a lot of unrelated tidbits of information that I'm sure to be poking around at with my many opinions, but I may not be able to get my Paladin to give feedback soon/necessarily at all, he watched the first and may not be interested enough to make time to watch the second (instead of just getting analysis from me) and we prefer not to give feedback on videos without watching them.
Hopefully he'll be on by, but for now, thank you and good job to the Intrepid team. My spark of joy has not been rekindled, but this phoenix's blaze seems to be for another.
I like the idea around it so far. Should be interesting seeing the diversity around the synergy and builds with the different schools for the various situations that call for it.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
I like how the volatile magic builds up around the user for the courage and trails with movement. It's not too over the top but subtle enough for definition. The versatility of the resource as a stacking buff offers unique choices at times.
What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
A block with a shield is not the same as a block with 2h. I imagine regardless of mitigation, you'll take a fraction more of the damage compared to blocking with a shield? the trade off is damage/stagger vs defence? Does tank archetype receive bonus to this? or should it be universally less for all classes that choose to block with the held item that is not a shield.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
With the synergy and progression of status effects in the combat system, I am looking forward to visual queues for the UI to display status effects and possibly procedurals depending on class design.
I do like that in games when you're under the effect of certain status effects that it present on the ui relatively for visual queues such as near death, standing in fire, the screen shows a burning effect or embers, frost with ice/frozen etc.
In the event resources get added in for active blocking, you can also visually show this on the UI from fatigue build up, stagger meter, loss of stamina/magic etc.
Direction of Tanks:
Jesus Christ, I am on my knees begging, remove Active Blocking now, or get ready to remove it in the first round of persistent testing after overwhelming negative feedback. Active Blocking only works in full action games where it is a mechanic everyone engages with, not as a form of damage mitigation. Functionally, it is no different than a short duration buff that applies the same mitigation. But the ability feels rewarding, and doesn't interrupt pressing your other really cool rotational abilities. This is relevant even if all classes can block, how boring it is to just hold a block button vs. other interesting abilities to fight off incoming damage. Guard break abilities, bashes, etc. make active blocking work in other full action games, but this is very clearly not a full action game.
Aegis is a neat idea, but positional mitigation like that is better relegated to gimmicks in individual fights (see:Sha of Fear fight in WoW). Otherwise, you'll have to either design ALL fights around assuming it's usage(for good or ill) and hint, it's been tried in other MMOs. It's a pain.
Abilities:
Off GCD damage reduction! Yay! Ability combos, yay! Names of the abilities? What the hell!
It feels like the team is trying REALLY hard not to name the abilities the same thing as in other MMOs, to the detriment of actively describing their function. When I saw the name Shield Assault, at no point did I assume it would have a mobility component. My first thought upon seeing the animation was second hand embarrassment as I wondered why it wasn't named Shield Charge. The names of the other abilities felt similarly uninspired-- It feels like the developers haven't established a thread of identity to develop Tank around. Shield use is a good foundation, but then we go between Grit and it's blue flames, a 'bellow' that is animated as a stomp, and a weapon swing. Shield+Any of these would be a good point to lean into. If we want vocals to be the realm of bards, then the bellow could be reframed as physical might/determination in line with Grit. Rename it Ground Crack, and frame it as the tank planting their feet with great force.
But please don't name abilities awkwardly for the sake of not having them named the same as another game, unless it's a legal problem(doubtful). Here's the unfortunate reality: Let's warp to a year post launch. Shield Assault made it to launch. I call it Shield Charge, because that's what it is and that's what it does. My cotank calls it Shield Charge. Nobody in my guild corrects me, if they even know the ability's name. A friend who heard this makes a Tank alt, and is surprised the ability isn't actually named Shield Charge. Their first thought? "What were they thinking when they named this ability Shield Assault??"
It sounds like a self buff that amplifies the effects of attacks that use your shield. Maybe something that forgoes defense for offense? Just look at how people refer to this ability in this thread.
Weapon Animations:
I could not for the life of me tell you what these animations looked like. There was too much going on. The hit-stops looked fine during some swings, but it feels a little odd to see those for other players-- I only really need to know when my swings hit, right? I can't really give feedback beyond that, but animation tuning is its own issue.
Misc.
I am particularly excited by the inclusion of oGCD abilities at this stage of development. I've said previously that oGCD weaving is my favorite part of combat in other games.
I think it is important to look at the development direction of other games and think about WHY it went that way. Especially with tanks, and how the threat generation has been treated. Tanks generate threat, but it is always more the concern of DPS than tanks. Threat never gets balanced to a knife's edge. It ends up as something tanks generate practically for free. Mitigation ends up becoming significantly easier, from gearing to ability usage. We don't have the full kit yet, of course, but it doesn't feel like the developers are looking at things like how tank design has gone the same direction in so many MMOs. It doesn't feel like we're learning from the past, just doomed to retread the same old design directions because another team thinks they can do it right this time. Ending up with the same shortage of tanks, followed by accessibility changes to alleviate that issue. Bad tank design is arguably worse for every player of the game beyond just tanks.
This is the first stream that had made me doubt the direction of the project. I would prefer to believe that this presentation was rushed, and that more time in the oven would improve things, but to a heavy degree it feels like class/combat design is directionless and uninspired. I don't know what adjective I'm supposed to associate with the Tank class, or with the feel of the combat. What excites me is how much raw progress we are seeing, and how much time there is for more change. I look forward to the day we can look back at this showcase and go, "Wow, look how much things have changed for the better since then."
1. The active blocking is questionable I think it slows the class down way too much and forces you to be a right-click and hold afk class if you want to be efficient. Why not just have an active ability that is your bread and butter that's on a short cooldown but can greatly reduce the damage it keeps your class moving?
2. Overall the abilities did not look as smooth as some of the other classes that we have seen to date.
3. This is less Tank related but I could not but notice that All AI in this game really needs some work mobs have no life to them they afk sit in one spot and hit. They need to have dodge, drop back and aoe abilities that add to the challenge.
1. Active block seems to fail with current combat direction. With the intensity of attacks and general dynamic of combat it seems really pointless especially when while blocking you do not generate threat. I'd rather have passive blocking, especially since you guys seem to follow Lineage 2 blocking formula where shield armour is added to your's only on block. To make active blocking work you'd have to slow down fight dynamic and incentivize blocking in a way, for example by adding counter mechanics where attacks or abilities generate additional threat after blocking, and a large amount of it.
2. Aegis - the whole idea is nice but it needs to be capped at some health levels else it's a suicide ability and needs some fine tuning possibly with the talent tree. It should provide some additional mitigation on top of the tank's. Seeing how it's gnawing at tank's health when multiple targets take AoE damage is ridicules and protecting from AoE seems to be its purpose on the first place so it completely defeats the idea of the skill. Here's my idea: Aegis in its base form reduces damage taken by targets behind the tank by 30% and 10% of the damage taken AFTER MITIGATION is transferred to tank which again gets MITIGATED by the tank's defences. Meaning it double dips on mitigation. The ability doesn't expire BUT stops transferring damage if the tank is at 50% health or below.
Aegis +1 - Tank receives 30% increased healing while Aegis is active and shield block blocks additional 50% damage.
Aegis +2 - Any healing cast on you while channelling the ability affects other protected targets at 25% of the value.
3. Pull - It needs to generate more threat or passively increase threat generation for a few seconds after being used.. Since we will have combo classes I am against having an ever active passive ability that increases threat generation just because you're "tank", but tanks need to be given some mechanics to work around.
Pull+ 1 - Your threat generation increases by 200% for 5 seconds. Attacks generate additional 100% threat against pulled target for the duration.
Pull +2 - Pull's cooldown is reduced by 1 second for every enemy enemy killed by you or your party member within your vicinity. Threat buff is increased by 50% if used on boss-class monsters.
4. Double slash - again really plain skill with really nothing to it. It could have been warrior's, rouge's or heck even ranger's close quarter ability. It definitely needs some flavour. Put it on a longer cooldown that's like 10 seconds so it can't be used as a DPS ability but then make this cooldown reduced by 1 second every time you block or parry. Then add some flavour to it via upgrades. for example.
Double Slash +1 - Block/Parry next 2 melee attacks after using the ability. Increases threat dealt to the monsters attacking you by 100%. This effect is increased to 150% if you are not the target.
Double Slash +2 - Increases damage by 30% if performed 2 seconds after a block or parry.
5. Shout - 15 second cooldown. Adds a certain flat amount of threat to nearby targets (Like Lineage 2 Hate Aura). Enemies that weren't attacking you are forced to attack you for the next 3 seconds.
Shout +1 - Extends the range of the ability and increases threat generated.
Shout +2 - Reduces the damage you take from affected enemies by 10% for 5 seconds.
6. Grit - this one was outright bad. There's too many trade offs for the benefits it provides, even with the vague "courage" explanation we've got. I'd say ca p it at 25% mitigation and keep movement speed reduction. Add damage reflection factor to it that's increased by courage. Lets say whenever you use the ability it depletes all the courage you've mustered and adds 0.2% of damage reflection for every point of courage (assuming courage is capped at 100).
Grit +1 - Using shout while grit is active generates 5 courage points for every affected enemy. Additional courage will be depleted at the speed of 10 per second to extend the duration of Grit beyond its base duration.
Grit +2 - Activating Grit grants you a protective shield for 5 seconds equal to 0.2% of your total health for every point of courage used.
In a traditional MMO, you're watching the action from as far away as possible. It's a very fast-paced tactical experience where you're surveying the entire battle with a huge selection of very specific and abstract abilities at your disposal. It's all about rotations, cooldowns, resource management, and the like. The camera angle necessitates relatively huge VFX tells, and the large number of abilities/mechanics requires a lot of UI to manage properly. This is mostly what we see in AoC.
In an action game, by contrast, you're in the dirt with your character - the camera is very up close and personal. You have a limited set of grounded abilities which have very general application across many situations (parry, heavy attack, dodge, etc). It's all about simulating a fight, complete with footwork, stamina, timing, and the like. UI and VFX are kept to a minimum, with character animations being used extensively to convey information to the player.
What I'm seeing with AoC is just a traditional tab targeting system with a small ability pool, split body movement, and a slightly more zoomed in camera. VFX and UI are the primary method of communication with the player, you're still quite far from the action (by necessity), and your abilities are extremely abstract and specialized - despite being limited in number.
That's why held block feels so out of place. It's a mechanic transposed from an entirely different style of combat. I understand the appeal of a hybrid system, but when it's a hybrid between such completely opposite philosophies, I don't see how it can shake out into something cohesive.
I feel like that was the worst livestream until now. And what I saw about the tank archetype in particular was disappointing and I can really not understand how anyone here can rate this stream positively.
While I like active blocking, there shod be some mechanic behind it and not just "you can press a key to block", something with stamina, or a bonus when you're blocking at the right time or whatever. In addition it was again super chaotic and again Steven didn't do a good job explaining the class and playing the class.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
Nice ideas I have to admit.
In general: the animations are too much over the top, too flashy and especially that warhammer slash animation graphic is so much over the top. I would really wish aoc wouldn't look like a jrpg.
- Quest journal/quest tracker looks great
- Dred need to be promoted to GM or has GM in his name poor dred :P
- Ferguson is imposter GM dont think i dont see that :P
- Footsteps seem a little loud, might be design wise so people can hear u sneaking up i guess, footstep sound between walking on path and grass sounds good
- river sound i think need to have a further range/heardistance
- '1 Redwood lumber' hmm im not sure if thats a lumber :P or something else entirely :P not sure if u planned the 1 wood drop then 2 stone drops right after :P
- Need for green roll system seems good, nothing new here but looks clean
- backpack i like the tabs for inventory/materials/quest items sections makes thins easier to manage aswell as see what items can drop on death with the materials section being in it own section, some nice filter/sort system too inplace it seems aswell which is nice
- hammer 3rd chain upper cut attack might be a little to quick but gameplay wise it probaly better so i cant realy judge to much here without having my hands on the game
- Noticed there doesnt seem to be an indicator on group mobs however might be design decission and im not fussed since i grew up on EQ and mob difficulty was a con and try and see what happens which im fine with some WoW era players may freak out a bit when they notice but honostly i like it but figured i would comment on it
- Tanks could do with a taunt ability that flat out pulls agro for a duration but has a long cooldown for emergency use :P doesnt neccesarily gain you threat but it more a on fuck button so dps relise they need 2 hold dmg for tank to store up threat
- I quite like the threat range distance it further than in alot of most game so it doesnt make the mobs look like there blind :P i wouldnt mind some mobs having longer agro range if there facing you though
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2. It seems that mana is still the primary resource for all characters. I believe that to be an outdated concept: it can definitely work, but makes different archetypes and classes bland and uniform. I would love to see more emphasis on unique resources with different resource management (Bravery for tanks, or previously Holy Charges for cleric), at the very least for non-healers.
3. Biggest point of concern for me was when Steven said during the showcase (paraphrasing) "you are not seeing the high level refined abilities, that's why it can feel little clunky, we have a low level group". I really hope doing level-appropriate content on tank, or any other character won't feel clunky. Progression to the top should be as enjoyable as the top itself. Anything else can be a powerful deterrent.
So alot of my combat feedback is gonna have to wait till i can get access to the game to realy see how it feels.
the ui stuff though im realy liking it clean and simple with tabs in the backpack was realy nice especially with separate spot for materials so u can see easily what ur risking on death.
i feel you might be going over the top with sparks and effects on basic attacks though to much flashy lights and thing make it harder to see the important things and basic attacks dont need to be super flashing and sparkly. Overboard spell effects should be use for big hitting skills that you realy dont want to be hit by or attacks u want to hit if your the one doing them
Overall, the first image for a pve tank is not a good one(maybe is "decent" for some pve content). The tank doesn't really look like the main threat and needs to be buffed. Tank effects should be more visible and less flashy.
I got some suggestions.
The spell diversity is ok BUT I would like an aoe cc that is more impactful in engages. I want to cover a good distance doing the dash and then jumping or sliding aoe stun so I can catch on the wrong foot the enemy zerg(you can also add resistance buffs depending on how many people you hit with the spell). Being slow and just taking hits waiting for the enemy to literally body slam me so I can do something... well... that's just not balanced.
Another good tank spell would be the one that grabs every enemy from 5/10 feet around you and brings them close to you(maybe add a taunt effect to pve). So I can jump inside the enemy zerg and do a big clump, call it, and If the tank-dps synergy works, we get some kills.
The second video was much better ngl.
Still some vfx and animations need to get tuned down or polished cuz you can’t follow the combat with all that together . Imagine fighting 20-30 ppl with those vfx , it would be a shit show 😂.
Also the weapons slash animation need more weight depending on the weapon and they way the character hold the great sword when out of combat it feels like it’s made out of feathers .
Other than these things , thank you Steven and intrepid for your hard work keep it up !
Ps the UI seems amazing 🤩
I have played games, were a "Bodyguard" like ability could be used on ally and it transfered received damage to the tank, but any mitigation of the tank was ignored. So no matter what damage the target received, the tank would receive the exact same. This basically made the tank die like a sacrifical pawn. (Bad design in my eyes)
Then there were games where any mitigation of the tank was added into the calculation of what damage was transfered. Creating a possible double invincible situation, where tank uses "Bodyguard" and for example 90% damage reduction for 5 seconds. Now I am already very biased against super high damage mitigation(Like 70-80% and higher), and absolutely loathe complete damage mitigation tank buffs(0 damage received).
I have no ideal solution honestly for the matter, I only have my experience to share from extremes on both ends. Maybe add possibly a condition where if tank hits 1 HP, it deactivates the skill and gives the tank 3 seconds of immunity to death(not invincibility) to give a timeframe to be healed up.
This skill by logic should be used in preparation for something incoming, but if the tank dies(no mitigation) because of it almost at all times or a mechanic/part of the game is ignored(too much mitigation) because of it then it is bad design either way in my eyes.
Because... To me it kinda feels counterproductive to have a shield activate for allies behind me that only works for melee range. I mean by MMORPG standard, tanks usually rotate the targets around so they don't cleave into the party. Why exactly would anyone walk into melee distance behind the tank if not for something in preparation?
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Then the skill that is completed already in my eyes and is a perfect bread and butter of the tank is the Grit.
This skill is literaly perfect, it is not indefinitely stacked for braindead gameplay, it needs preparation by using skills at appropriate intervals to allow stacking during fight, it needs timed execution to make the best use of it.
However, it can be also just used constantly if you want to take it lazier, more casual.
This skill is precious, keep it safe and don't let it change.
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The active block... I still just don't feel it, it does not fit. Especially without any resource tied to it or whatever.
I do give that you cannot just hold block at all times in Pve, because then you lose aggro. But when we remove the threat from the calculation(PvP), then what is going to happen? People just holding their shield for free when panic or cooldowns, etc.
There needs to be some hard refactoring to it, or just removing completely and let stats speak for themselves or have skills that sync up with shields.
Like a skill giving 3 stacks of block that reduces damage by 30%
A skill that makes you unable to move, but you block every incoming attack for the next 5 seconds of duration.
A skill that increases your block mitigation for a short time.
Literally anything that is not just: "I hold my shield, i move around, I get less damage for no effort".
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At 19-20 minutes mark of the remade showcase, you guys were talking about the Tank role and it is fantasy. Then it was brought up that once threat is removed from the situation(PvP), then tanks are usually ignored if not always, and you will try to change this. I would like to say thank you for understanding how a tank is meant to be. The role of the class has been under utilized for long enough especially in PvP.
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Some small bit, you either need to tone down the mob aggro range or increase the pull range. I feel like the pull loses it is very initiative meaning if all mobs run at you before being able to cast it anyway. Obviously it still has it is meaning to get a mob away from the healer for example, but I think the initiative feature is the most commonly used idea of the skill.
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Regarding the showcase,
I would say always showcase/hover over and explain the skills at the beginning. The on stream showcase had me confused as things get explained too rapidly in the midst of combat and have no chance to read skill description, nor it is read out.
People complain about Steven and the Dev team dying, but I can guarantee that 80% at the least of them are just looking into the mirror while trying to tell themselves "I would do better".
The trade offs only come into place if you have the grit at all times activated(If you can even call this a bad trade off for a tank lmao). Because then you have:
- Constant -15% damage reduction.
- Constant -30% movement speed.
- Constant -20% damage dealt.
Now, if you have your Grit up at all times it is plain up "not ideal" in your eyes. But for your average player it is perfectly fine.
But... If you know the mechanics, the skills and what is to come, and you are willing to turn on and off the skill. Then you have:
- 30% damage reduction for the moment you want the skill to be executed.
- Movement speed reduction does not matter, because you use the skill just to reduce certain damage incoming.
- Your reduction in damage dealt does not matter because the window of Grit is too short.
It is a skill of preparation and proper execution. It is a perfect skill to draw a very-very-very-very clear line between a good and average/bad tank.
What you are asking above is a braindead functionality of the skill at all times, just to make the tank stronger for no reason.
Considering Steven did not a good job tanking and for whatever reason you decided to play with 4 people in an 8 people area and we dont know how active blocking looks like there really isnt much to assess here since we only saw content that is subject to change in terms of synergy.
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What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
Steven did not a good job explaining or showcasing the abilities as apparently intended so I have no thoughts on this other than please let someone else showcase archtypes in the future and Steven run along in the background and make it more of a scripted video.
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What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream? Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
The warhammer animations look too cartoonish compared to the other weapons. The shield and blocking was visually fine but again why did you show it if you dont even know how active blocking is going to work? Also I find it confusing that other new content like lorestones (or whatever they are called I cant remember) are getting shadow dropped midstream without much explanation.
The poor quality of the video was inexcusable and even then it was too long and too much of the same. If it was live gameplay it would have been fine but for something prerecorded it was really, really bad.
I would enjoy it more if instead of monthly showcases you would do bi-monthly ones with more scripted and condensed gameplay videos that respect peoples time and maturity. Your core audience watching the streams are people thata re already heavily invested in MMOs and into the games development not people that are new to gaming and dont know whats going on.
However, the combat is much better now than the quick time combat at Pax. There are still issues with the basic weapon attacks which I keep having to point out. They are too fast and seem too floaty. Like fan manoeuvres from a Geisha. The problem relates to all basic attacks. I would prefer to see some other weapon attacks than just the basic weapon attacks. Q spam seems to have returned. Also, why are the skills moving the toon forward again? I thought we managed to remedy the forced movement forward in A1.
Would be excellent to get an opposite stance to grit. Thus, the two stances would be created - One defensive and one offensive. Aegis should be perfect for situational and positional awareness. I don't feel Aegis should be changed to an aura for use in more situations. I'm pleased formations weren't shown and hope formations are scrapped. I'm quite attached to the tank archetype after the improved video and I love that Courage acts like rage. Too bad the tank archetype doesn't stagger all damage and turn the damage into dots with a cleanse yet though. The deaths of the team were much appreciated rather than the usual dev cheats. It helps us understand the current strengths and weaknesses.
I still feel the combat is too static and that the combat is still to predictable. In the horrid stream the chaos highlighted the tank limitations but in the new version the static dispositions highlighted the combat limitations. The AI needs to be improved and the general game play needs to be more fluid and less static. The slower pace should come from the general combat and not because everything has been given cast times. Instant casts are much preferred like A1 and should be reinstated for A2. TTK can come from other areas other than cast times for skills. The instant cast spells should cost more mana, there is no urgency in mana protection/conservation. The Cleric needs more attack skills to use in between heals - the mana regen enables such a practice but the class lacks the abilities. I was first sold on cleric due to the heal/damage combos but these seems to have been shelved.
We need less flashy animations and more animations from the arms/hands with spit body. I know we can use sliders for the skill effects but we should also be able to create beauty. Right now, everything overloads everything else and the fighter hammer still looks atrocious. The javelin pull reminds me of my Black Guard in Warhammer online and I love the ramifications in pvp. I feel the tank is heading in the right direction and I feel the tank can be perfected. We want the need to dodge more and play around threats. Right now, it feels like tank and spank with a tank ill equipped to hold multiple targets. The shield bash needs a longer range and a second charge would also be beneficial. Right now, i feel that positioning and threat management are secondary to active block and static dispositions.
I feel the xp per kill for an elite mob needs to be increased. I didn't get to see the xp gain in the video but in A1 the xp gain from elites was equal to xp gain from non elites which needs to be remedied. I realise the showcase was a class showcase and not a content showcase. The end results will be glorious when the updates have been made and the spare resources are harnessed.
Edit: Age of Conan used to have sprint and block on stamina when stamina was also used for active skills. It was a death sentence and was rarely ever used. It is much advised not to have active block use mana but to use stamina. I realise the feedback is earlier than A2 but I see no reason not to advise.
Now, feedback on the tank:
- Aegis, this skill has a design flaw, I'm sure many pointed it out already, you want to tank monsters away from the group, which makes this skill super situational, we will rarely see it used, but if it were to provide a small mitigation, or if the directional requeriment was removed turning the skill in some kind of aura it would become very useful.
- Shield assault, nothinh to complain about this skill, but the game class system is supposed to give you freedom to build whatever tank you like, and this skill so far looks absolutely mandatory making shield a mandatory slot for tnaks, there should be an alternative skill or an skill upgrade that allows you to use it without a shield.
- Grit, this skill is perfect, you trade damage and mobility for survability, using this skill correctly will make the difference between good and bad tanks, but, I sure hope this is not the only courage spender, having an oposite aura to this one to increase damage while sacrificing survability would be interesting, especially in off tanking, a third one that provides mitigation to the group would also be great.
- Grapple, this needs to be a viable skill for pulling, shouldn't be resisted, at least on the first use against the target, this skill would do better with threat generation but that also creates the risk of it being spammed creating unnecesary enemy movement during the battle, so instead giving it a root effect that gives the tank time to build threat would be a better option, the animation... the javelin animation from alpha1 was perfect, just use that.
- Active block, this will make me be tank main or completely avoid tanking, if it is unlimited it will make tanks block as much as possible, that's not fun, if it uses mana, then blocking will force a gameplay with less skills and more normal attacks, so mostly right and left clicking for most of the battle which sounds not fun to me, it should instead use its own resource.
- Perfect block, this was just an idea and I love it, not for normal attacks tho, FFXIV has a mechanic called "tank buster" special skills designed to kill tanks, tanks have to use their strongest mitigation when these skills are comming, using perfect block in a similar fashion would be perfect, even tho if the "tank busters" are not correctly indicated it can lead to frustration and unnecesary wipes, so keep that in mind.
- Tank/tank, Steven said this was the best tank, and that worries me, I would understand if you said that it has the best mitigation across all the tank classes, but I don't think there should be something that is the "best", the point of the class system should be to make classes different, not better or worse, if being tank main means I'll be stuck to the tank/tank class to be effective, then I don't want to be a tank, so don't take freedom away with meta.
If a block ability (or many) blocks a 20% of incoming damage, a perfect timed block can absorb more, like 30/40%.
An easy approach to consider if a block is going to be perfect can be if it is activated when the enemy damaging ability has ended the animation prior to fire and not before.
So not when is landing but when is being fired (I think it's easier for latency issues to have that time frame window).