Threat generation needs to be increased. The tank lost aggro too often when threat skills weren't being used. There must be scope to use weapon abilities, dodge and active block without losing aggro in an instant. Delay the loss of threat a tad or boost the threat generation a tad.
I think the classes need more identity that makes them more unique. In addition to that I don't like the idea of everyone using mana as a resource. Mana should be for mages, rage should be for fighters, energy/focus should be for rangers and so forth. Each class should look different UI wise as well.
One thing I feel I need to point out is the visual noise on the screen. Even with 4 players, each with only a few abilities, when fighting I could not tell what was going on. Aegis, Grit, fighter cleave, ranger cleric, plus the mobs, idk, i felt that there was too much visual noise for me to see what ability was actually used and by who. Also, when there are 100s of players on screen, its gonna be a visual nightmare. I would say tone done the visuals, give them clearer edges.
The example here is the fighter's hammer. When he triggers that, its just too much. Its big, its bright yellow, its long (2s or so) for an ability that has a short cooldown. I would say reduce its brightness by like 30%, its size by 20% and give it a clean edge, so the light dosent bleed into the environment that much .The ranger triple root ability is good, small green effect and then roots on the ground, its not flashy, but its obvious, more abilities like that.
The combat is too flashy, thats my problem right now. And considering the livestream was lvl 15, how is it gonna look at 50? In a raid of 40 people each using super flashy abilities?
As a kinda solution, would be the ability to turn down the effects on other player's abilities, but at the same time, you can't really do that, you need to see when your tank puts up Aegis, when the cleric puts the healing circle, that needs to be obvious.
Idk, have an option to tune down normal abilities from other players (and your own btw) but have a different slider for abilities that you can use (Aegis, healing etc)? That seems so much work though...
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KrastyMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Hello glorious community,
[*] How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?
I like mana as resource, i play lineage2 and archeage and I never had a problem with class identity, even in the old diablo 1/2 everyone had mana as a resource.
if the mana spending is well thought out, as indicated on asheswiki(I think that people are unnecessarily looking for problems where there are none): https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Mana
personally, I don't like the system builder and spender as it is in wow on basically all classes, because then all classes look basically the same to me. 3 skills to build 3 skills to spend = boring.
( in wow I played or tried higher level (Paladin, Druid, Monk, Mage, and Envoker) except for mage and Envoker, the others were basically the same. and Mage + Evoker had a lot in common as well)
just to get this out of the way,i liked most of what i saw. i think there needs to be a ranged aoe threat generator for the tank that lands 100% of the time, and that it should be easier for the tank to hold aggro, but thats something that i think everyones said already, so ill leave that to them.
what i feel is missing though, is both a sense of uniqueness to the tank to distinguish it from other melee classes, and something to make it viable in pvp. lineage 2 did this pretty well imo. tanks recieved cubics (tbf a lot of classes had cubics, but the tank ones were the most interesting). each tank had pretty different set of cubics that did all sorts of things, but mainly they made soloing (and pvping) more possible for the tank.. at lvl 80 they all got some really cool party buffs as well. i think this would be really cool for tanks, since each sub type of tank could have a different cubic that did things to help them in battle, and they could each have a different, powerful party buff as well (also based on their subclass). that way, a traditionally pve focused class could have some flavor and utility outside of pve. this would also stop people from making their fighter crazy high dps to hold aggro, thereby making tanks useless (im looking at you lineage2 orc classes).
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RisingLightMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Just a suggestion but when playing a tank for PvP how about when taunted a player and all of that player’s enemies become friendly except for the tank who taunted that player?
Some preface, I've been tanking in MMO's since the dinosaur ages of UO and Everquest. Ive continued doing so through the classic wow era up to now. So I have a good deal of experience in the role and how its evolved over the years.
How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?
Not a fan at all really. This has less to do with the class design and more of the overall archetype system. Its always said how we get to play how we want but Tank minded players are restricted to a single primary class. What if we do not enjoy or find the "Tank" Toolkit exciting?. in a game with 64 class combinations, Being restricted to a mere 8 of them is really upsetting. I feel for healers as well as they are in a similar boat. You should HEAVILY consider expanding the spread of tanking and healing classes.
Some of us dont care about dps and I think we should be considered in the design process at least to a minor extent.
care to share how you would design it or improve on it. Not being sarcastic or anything negative here. I am not a tank main, but more info and ideas of what matters with Tank Mains if they are consulted and helped during this process, as you stated. How would it look like.
Honestly its fairly simple as a concept. Stop making every role a dps in mmos. Being a dps with defensive cooldowns is not a tank, Its a dps with defensive cooldowns. The best example of this is FF14 where its a struggle to even say that game has tanks.
Tanks should control the battlefield and pace of combat providing battlefield control and party support while taking the damage on to themselves. Having some damage is not a bad thing but it should also not be the primary function of the role.
So with that ramble out of the way, My job as a tank is at its most simplistic to take damage so the squishy's don't. Thats my role, How I generate that aggro should have WAY more choice. Where is our self heal tank, the CC tank, The Buff Tank ect.
You have plenty of DPS class combinations, Lets spread that love so we have some choice in tanking and healing as well other than a single class
I'd like to give my opinion on the blocking aspect with the showcase which I realize is not finished. I don't think that a resource to control blocking is going to be very engaging. The tank just blocks as often as the resource is available, maybe holding on to it for more serious attacks. You can increase the resource or reduce the cost etc which I just feel is pretty basic and boring and done before to not great success.
The mechanic I would make around blocking is that it reduces your threat when hit while blocking. This mechanic would extend to every player in the context of the video. For the tank, they would try to build threat and mitigate as damage at the same time creating a unique mechanic for them to manage threat over the course of shorter and longer fights. So, if tanks just hold the block button without building proper threat, the mobs are just going to run wild and attack the rest of the team. For everyone else, if they pull aggro, in most mmos they are going to run away and stop damaging/healing trying to survive. With this system they could actually contribute to helping the tank get aggro back by blocking and kiting the mob back to the tank but could still just run if the scenario warranted it.
This eliminates adding a new resource to implement and manage just for blocking. This could turn into a different discussion for pvp purposes of infinite blocking which I don't believe would be an issue. If someone is blocking, then they aren't attacking or healing but are still taking damage. So, forcing them into a state of blocking just means you are winning.
I have to say I like the direction the tank is going. From what I saw in this most recent preview it has a good amount of potential in PVE and PVP. Of course we have only seen a small part of the kit. And I hope seeing more will give a more solid look at the full potential of the tank.
I did mention however in another post I hope the tank has a bit more options when it comes to group oriented play/protection. I love the Aegis bubble and would like to see more things like that implemented. I even gave some examples in my other post such as a character swap ability or an AOE place able spell anywhere around you to be used by allies for a shield or damage mitigation but it can't be moved once placed, lasts a couple seconds, and is like a 10 meter circle as an example of a skill.
I myself am not big on warhammers. But from watching the gameplay I think the Warhammer attack speed should be slowed down just a tad bit, and I think the swings are too wide. It looks more like the greatsword swing and I'd like to see it a bit more controlled. As for the 2H sword, I think that looks great, I wouldn't change anything. It looks weighty, the swings have a good amount of time between them so it doesn't look unrealistic.
My only concern about the tank, is I don't think it generated enough threat. I would like it if all the tank skills generate threat, but there are specific moves that generate more threat than others. And as an example I think all the tanks skills should generate 10% more threat (the percentage may be too high, I'm not a game developer so maybe 5% is better maybe 15% is better.) But I'd like to see you as the tank be able to grab aggro if you were to use all skills that don't generate extra threat like the shield bash or lacerate (that might be the wrong skill name) of course it would make sense to be harder to generate threat without the high threat skills, but if you have a good rotation you can generate enough threat to hold aggro and that offers other playstyles
Just got finished watching the 2nd presentation video you guys uploaded to youtube. Can take some of my first post here and toss it now 2nd presentation was much better. Things were showcased better, definitely got a better sense of where the tank is at.
Trying to focus strictly on the tank and not my other issues I will say my few points. I'm far less concerned now about tank but i guess my main concern now is the active blocking.
I felt the combat looked very fun and all the skills although limited looked fun as heck to use! Then you when you got to the last 2 bosses and started to active block, my excitement largely went out the window...but not all the way out. the active blocking was responsive and I really like the idea of bonus defense or what have you for a "perfect block" but watching that final boss fight was kind of boring. Kudos to you all for having the winning strat to clear an 8 player boss with 4 ppl I suppose, but the tank just stood there and blocked. Tossed out skills every so often but mostly just blocked. Blocking did seem to be very useful at mitigation so thats good, but if that is the style of game play you're going for (which I'm slowly getting on board with) as a player and tank main I need to see it in action with a more full tool kit and the blocking resource in game.
Some ideas that come to mind, there should be a bonus to using active block besides just taking less damage.
- Perfect Block instantly refreshes the nearest skill to come off cool down. Using this tactically to either use a big ability twice in a row, or just get your knock down available 3 seconds sooner would be a lot of fun to time out and actively think about.
- Any active block should increase your threat generated against the target. This would encourage its use when starting fightings or when large groups are all attacking you. Make it easier to hold aggro when you can't be doing damage to build threat.
- Having skills that proc off of perfect blocks. Eg, a critical counter strike that you can only use after a Perfect Block
- Perfect Blocks on enemy melee Skills ( not auto attacks) should have a chance to proc a staggered effect.
- Perfect Block and its bonuses should only work for Tank archetype (much less effective as 2nd archetype)
I really think blocking needs its own resource outside of sprinting/dodging. Even if its only for Tanks. Or even just shields. Shield resource. And executing a Perfect Block should mean using less resource, what ever it ends up being. What ever you do though, don't make Mana or what ever Tanks will use for their attack skills be tied to the blocking resource. They need to be different.
Tanking should be possible, yet far from optimal, without a shield which I think you've shown today but active blocking with a 2h, or off hand item should have diminished returns which they likely do, but not at the cost of Threat Generation or holding Aggro. Those things are core to tanking and shouldn't be diminished because you don't have a shield.
Shield types could possibly change how your block works. Kite and Tower shields could be more blocking type weapons. Bucklers would more for parry type maneuvers. Even if behind the scenes the game thinks they are the same, if animation wise and sound design they'd be more redirects than full blocks, that'd be rad.
Saw someone else comment about having a target list, like FFXIV has. i like the idea in concept but right now I think the UI is in a near perfect state when it comes to clutter. There should be some other way of telling if you have aggro on a unit or not. Simplest form I've seen is color variation in the name plates. But could also be an icon above their heads when you're losing it/lost it/don't have it. If you go the icon route, I would suggest that when an enemy has NO icon above its head would mean you have aggro, only indicate when its being lost rather than when you have it. Keep the screen clean.
Anyways I'll cut it there, again I'll say this 2nd video was much better and I'm less worried. I think you guys are on the right track. Active blocking can certainly be fun if there is enough to do and time to swing as well. I highly recommend looking at that final boss fight from the video and viewing it as too much active blocking, dial it back 40% or so Thanks Intrepid, very excited for the game
You have made some very good points here, I love the idea of active blocking reducing cooldowns or increasing charges on grit or something ^^ I made a very similar post called 'Active blocking and it's resource management' so I would love to hear your thoughts on it! Agreed that the active blocking is passive gameplay, it needs timing and resource management.
Firstly, I'd like to give my thoughts on the livestream of what I saw of it. The sections that I managed to watch during the livestream were chaotic, cumbersome and not particularly flattering of the gameplay & abilities. However the more structured & cohesive re-recording for the YouTube video was superb in my opinion, leaning more into Stephens strengths as a curator of conversation, allowing the Devs to talk about the design choices during a more methodical gameplay segment. The re-recording of this was very important in my opinion, particularly since the cleric livestream received negative feedback and the tank livestream seemed to follow the same footsteps. Alas, the re-record was a success in my book!
Edit: UI is looking nice and clean in it's first pass!
How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?
Regarding the direction of the tanks development, so far so good. I'm a bit concerned about it's gameplay potentially lacking an engaging playstyle. The footage we saw so far of all of the classes, not just the tank on the surface looks a tad whackamole at level 15.
I feel like the direction for the tank and other archetypes needs to have more built in stimulation for the player, combinations of abilities that can lead to differing outcomes, use grit? Your charge will inflict a bleed on the target, use your shout when aegis is up? Your shout applies a armour debuff to enemies. I'm sure this will all come with time when talents and augments are implemented. Also, dodges, let's see the tank have to dodge some near death abilities from their adversaries, not just at late game either, build that skill element of gameplay into the tank aswell as the DPS and healers!
I also feel like there should be a visual indicator showing who has aggro in the group, in other MMO's we have add-ons for this, without these add-ons we will need a little help, unless the visual indication in game is visually clear whilst in the thick of battle.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
In my honest opinion, I was not blown away by the abilities. I thought they were pretty cookie cutter. My biggest gripe was a point that one of the developers made at around 39 minutes into the YouTube video regarding the aegis and how it was redundant to use it for its intended purpose, this was because the other party members could just stand away from the cleave abilities and not unnecessarily pile damage onto the tank. Personally I'd really like to see the aegis take the form of a more "physical" shield, kind of like Reinhardt's shield in overwatch, it goes up, reduces the players speed, blocks a certain amount of damage and drops once depleted, therefore being useful to the tank for blocking big frontals and also useful to the party for blocking projectiles. I could imagine something like this being hugely beneficial in pvp and siege environments making tanks a much more desirable asset in the battlefield.
What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
Weapons sheathing when? Haha, but seriously, I can't properly give my feedback on the aesthetic of these weapons until I see them sheathed. As for the combat, I still feel like the weapon swings need to have a "wind up" where the weapon moves slower and ends with an emphatic swing to really depict that weight, at the moment the swings feel a little "one speed". I also think that a slower swing speed would really help to provide the visual "impact" that people are looking for in the comments. Personally I think that a slower swing speed will also make for more punishing PvP situations if people carelessly auto attack.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates
I am excited to see these abilities iterated upon, I'm concerned that this is the only abilities the classes will have for A2. I was also a little concerned about VFX clutter.
References to visual clutter below:
As a side note, I am also concerned about there not being an implemented stamina bar in a livestream with a feedback request on it, I think that would be a great step! I really think that sorting the direction for dodging and active blocking is crucial in designing meaningful and interactive combat. So far I am yet to see a PVE encounter with mobs in the previews that has gripped me, most has been mind numbing tank and spank. I understand it's alpha, but a few wind up frontals, projectiles or aoes wouldn't go amiss.
As always though, great stuff, chins up and go again next month with feedback in tow! GJ 🙂
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
Looks like its going in the right direction!
Only concern is FX/visual effect, it was a 4 man demonstration and already way too much epileptic & hard to see who does what. You need to be sober on those FX/skill visual effect. If its too much when we only have 4 players on a screen, what will it be when there willl be 8 man and more?
Very important to be subtle about that so its easily readable by everyone.
Hope you will understand the importance of that
Cheers
Love the tank and all the work you guys are doing, there's some things to work out like the difficulty being too low for an 8 party content, but I really like all the animations you guys are doing. People are saying they are too flashy but they are great.
One thing for feedback: This is for all classes not just the tank, but I would love to add a little bit more variety to the basic attack, it seems to be an active part of combat not just filler so it would be nice if it had like a light and heavy attack by holding the key for the heavy and pressing for light, feel like it would add another layer to combat and would make the basic attack more diverse and immersive without having to completely rework combat and would make combat more impactful, switching between heavy and light attacks while waiting for skills to cool down. Also, having different attack speeds for different weapons would be great for immersion and making each weapon feel more real.
Here's my feed back on the video, i apologize for my rusty english.
- Trees/foliage/banners/flags/fences should become semi transparent when occluding the visual of the character. e.g. at 11:47 of the tank showcase video.
- What's going on with that weird grabbing/aggroing from afar ability that seems to throw something? Is it a taunt?
- Will there be differences from blocking physical attacks and magical attacks? (PvE and PvP)
- Steven said that all classes can use active block but it will be less effective than the tank.
I worry about a scenario where it's just better to keep dpsing rather than blocking for non shield wielding classes because the damage mitigation of non-shield-active-blocking is lack luster so it's better to keep doing damage to the adversary thus killing him faster than he can kill you rather than mitigating some damage.
A redeemer from what i just described could be, say, that blocking an ability that would stun, knock you down or inflict a debuff/DoT would nullify the application of that effect/debuff on your character.
- I've seen instance of vfx from the ranger and paladin ending in a rectangular shape as if they are 2d vfxs applied on a flat geometry rectangular plane; those obviously need to be fixed. What i describe can be seen at 14:59 and in other instances during the video.
- The visuals of the damage numbers can be improved still.
- I feel like the effects on the ground at 19:07 made by abilities disappeared too fast or need a bit of fading transition.
At the same time I understand that if they don’t disappear quickly it would be too messy graphically.
- I like that you can miss your shield rush, it doesn’t seem to be the usual lock on ability like I’ve seen in other videogames.
- The general combat "style" of AoC, to me, feels like it lacks a unique style; i feel like when you see BDO/Wow/GW2 combat, you recognize the game instantly, just by looking at the combat.
In the last few combat showcases i've seen, i don't see/feel a distinct style in AoC.
- What's gonna be more common, resting to recover mana or using mp potions?
Is it like spending time vs spending in-game money to buy the pots (which is also spending time because you have to play to get the in-game money to buy them…).
- The grass looks really soft. Would stare up at the starts lying on it, 10/10.
- The running animation swinging that heavy mace up and down needlessly looks a bit stupid i must say.
It would be ok if holding a dagger but still...
I Recommend doing two things if not doing so already.
1. Watch asmons recent take on the update
....
1. The aggro mechanic. Tanks should just easily hold aggro. Not struggling to hold it and lose it. Most people don’t play tank because aggro mechanic sucks. New world, wow, ESO etc… - Asmon summarized comment
Absolutely not, Asmon provides feedback on threat from a non tank main perspective, he plays tank to lead raids, not for the fun and chalenge of the role.
FFXIV for example has the easiest threat system in the genre, and it sucks, ask any FF player about tanking and they all will say that tank is the easiest role by far.
Threat management should be difficult enough to the point it makes a good tank stand out, but easy enough so a good tank performing well would never lose threat, one of the things I agree with Asmon is when he said "a tank that is correctly using his rotation shouldn't lose aggro", but in FFXIV you can literally do your rotation for 2 minutes and completely stop attacking for the rest of the 10m boss fight and you will never lose aggro, to me that is bad design and makes tank gameplay feel cheap an easy.
On a side note, you don't design tanks for "most people" you design the role for people wanting to main tanks, or otherwise tank mains will be the ones who are driven away from the role.
I appreciate the invincibility skill has been removed from low level tank. Would be happy to see the skill at a higher level or not to see the ability at all Cheers all.
Tank was always going to be a messy reveal because of the cleric disposition. The cleric seemed to be designed to merge with the fighter rather than the tank. I realise synergies are good and I love the synergies but general combat should also be focused on.
I feel the run would have been more successful if the tank staggers damage like brewmaster monk or cleric has instant casts because the lack of dev cheats really did highlight the issues.
I realise the zone was for 8 players but the cleric barely spent manner and was very sluggish. The tank also lost threat too easily which could also explain the slow heals.
Edit: I see there are synergies between fighter, cleric and tank. I can't wait to try these parameters in A2. I feared cleric would have to synergise with fighter in every group but fighter and tank can also synergise with each other.
I feel the basic building blocks are excellent but the additions I've detailed would make the combat perfect.
How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?
The direction looks about right. Three things make me especially happy:
[Grit] lets the tank have a highly active and high skillcap method of regulating damage. Things like this are needed on other classes too!
[Aegis] exist as an example of a skill that lets the tank influence the survivability of the rest of the party. However, I would like to see a guarding mechanic where the tank can babysit party members one target at a time like Warhammer Online.
The tank seems to have access into multiple CC abilities, which helps find it a place in PvP as an initiator/controller.
Couple things slightly worry me:
I'd like to see the tank being able to deal significant damage, and not just be a threat/cc machine. DPS roles should on average offer more damage, but I'd like to see the glassiest tank configuration outdamaging the tankiest DPS configuration. The current iteration seemed to be quite light on the damage.
[Grapple] seems like absolute RNG cancer in PvP. If getting pulled is only a matter of a bad resistance roll, there is not much anyone can do about being yoinked into a zerg for instant death. Forcible relocation is veeery spooky to balance, even moreso when it's tab targeted and ranged. Maybe this skill is PvE only?
Active blocking might end up being a too big part of the tank gameplay. Holding down right click might not be the most engaging thing ever.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
Mostly covered above. As for the rest, it's been covered by everyone: Animations are looking better than Alpha 1, but still too flashy blah blah. What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
The swing timings could still use some tinkering. Generally looks okay though? (I'd prefer the shield not being swung to the side during swings because that's dumb, but hey this is high fantasy with shirtless dualwielding men.) Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
Hopefully the mob AI gets improved a bit with better movement and more attacks. But I guess I'd play even with 2004 mob behavior patterns.
Overall, I have to say that I very much like the progress made so far with the game. As a tank main myself, I do like the way the archetype is shaping up. The skills shown are definitely interesting or familiar compared to many tank classes that I have played over the years.
I loved the look of the armor set at the end and I'm excited to see what other heavy armor set models are present within in the game.
I would however like to see some changes or additions made to the player skills. I think given the nature of some of the skills as well as the general flow of cool downs and fight knowledge of when to use/save skills, it would be nice if some of the lower cooldown skills possessed some manner of damage reduction attached to them. A passive buff that lasts for 3-5 seconds or simply a buff that lasts for the duration of the animation. Building on that idea even further, as the players level up and skill attributes can be chosen, having the choice between adding said damage reduction or choosing to boost damage output would be a great in scenarios where a player may want to customize their kit further.
I think Grit is a fantastic skill that would require some measure of thought to optimize a fight. It's both very rewarding and punishing all at the same time and I quite enjoy this balance. One idea that I would like to explore is the conversion of Courage stacks when consumed into another stack of buffs or a buff with a duration that increases aggro dealt or even damage dealt, playing off of the previous skill customization idea.
Now, I'm not going to lie, I've got mixed feelings about Aegis. I see the risk vs reward factor at play here but the skill itself, as of right now in my mind, seems like it would be too situational for the risk factor involved within a given scenario. Dropping the damage redirected toward the tank may be the best way to go about it but I'd like to see what others have to say with regards to Aegis. I also have no idea what other boss or mob mechanics will be present within in the game so I'm basing this opinion off of previous experiences and encounters.
All in all I'm quite pleased with the progress. I'd definitely love to see how using other weapons affect tanking if at all and what other builds and skills might be available for use. I hope that there is some variety over simple one hand and shield for tanking builds in the most intense situations. Active blocking is a win for me as I am fond of action combat and active blocking. TERA was one of my favorite games and I absolutely loved tanking in that game. Nonstop fun for hours and challenging myself to get my blocks right. I wouldn't be mad if inspiration was taken from the Warrior or Lancer classes when expanding on the archetype.
Great job! I'm really looking forward to seeing more updates and your thoughts on feedback so far!
We will also need 'See target's target' added to tank and other classes for easier threat management.
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ButtercupCloverMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I played tank in alpha 1, and while it definitely didn't feel like a complete class I still enjoyed it. It's kit had everything one would need in a pvp and pve situation but it just took time to learn how to use it the best way possible. What I saw in the Tank preview felt like a step in the wrong direction, although I understand it was level 15 gameplay and still in the early development process for the skills and classes. I'll just list out everything I noticed.
1. In alpha 1 all the classes had different health scaling, the Tank obviously having the most health in the end. I don't expect it to be the same as was showcased, but all the players had the same exact max life which felt extremely low. It is really hard to show off a Tank's gameplay if they aren't the beefiest boys in the room.
2. There isn't enough skills that generate additional threat, or at least the descriptions of the skills didn't mention it. It was rather apparent when it became difficult for Steven to hold aggro on anything.
3. I'd like to suggest renaming 'Shield Assault' to 'Assault' and when a shield is equipped it becomes 'Shield Assault'. That way a Tank can still utilize their kit if their shield happens to break or if they want to play an off meta build. A charge and swing with the weapon that doesn't stun a shaken target unless a shield is equipped perhaps.
4. It seems like Shield Assault also applied a snare. It would be nice to see that in the description or perhaps 'shaken' also counts as a snare. I guess it would be nice to see a full list of different conditions that can be applied to targets in one of the showcases so we know what is being showcased when a skill says it applies 'shaken' or 'staggered' on a target.
5. Inciting Strikes is a good skill as it generates extra threat, but it should probably do more damage as well. It did less damage with those two swings than either Shield Bash or Tremoring Bellow did. In a pvp situation, this skill seems useless if it's sole purpose is generating threat.
6. Tremoring Bellow would be a perfect skill to add extra threat generation to. An AoE threat generating skill is needed in group content and may have saved some of the party members when multiple mobs were pulled. I'd also suggest changing the 'staggered' condition it applies to the 'shaken' condition so it has more synergy with Shield Assault.
7. Grit seems like the perfect skill to add increased threat generation to all actions. A toggleable buff that reduces damage output means you'll be generating less threat so it would be nice to see some extra threat generation to make sure you can still hold aggro while trying not to die.
8. Aegis seems like a cool skill, but doesn't work the best in practice. Most of the time the Tank should be trying to face the mobs away from the DPS rather than have everyone stack in front of it. I'd suggest a dome centered around the Tank rather than behind it. Another reason for this is so Tanks aren't just sitting in the back, facing away during pvp to keep their allies from taking damage.
9. Aegis also shouldn't last nearly as long or shouldn't begin it's cooldown until the skill has ended. As it is now, it only has 5 seconds of downtime.
10. I don't know if the intention is to still have tiers of skill level that does more the more you invest into it, but grapple should work the way it did in Alpha 1 at max level. That skill was perfect for keeping aggro as a tank as it forced the mob to target you. It was the only way to put yourself at the top of the threat list no matter how hard someone else was DPSing or healing.
11. None of the skills listed the mana cost for using or activating them when they were hovered over. I'd also like to see how long buffs and debuffs last in the skill description.
12. As a non technical thing, I'd like to see the sit animation compress the grass down like skills do so there aren't just blades of grass spewing out of your character when you sit.
In all, it felt like it needed a lot more ways to generate extra threat. It's hard to showcase a class filling it's role in a party when the essentials it needs to fill that role aren't there.
How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?
I think the overall direction of the tank is a good one. I like that it distinguishes itself from the fighter by being more defensive and control focused. Also, please rename to something in setting. It just seems like a large contrast from the 64 individually named classes and the 7 other archetypes.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
I thought the abilities were a cool foundation for the archetype. However, I would personally like to see much greater emphasis placed on things like crowd controlling mobs and mitigating party damage. The coolest ability was when the tank was combo stomping the bosses onto the ground. The most underwhelming by far was when the tank just added threat and nothing really happened.
What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
I thought the Warhammer and 2H sword both looked good. The basic attacks look fluid and impactful. I would like to see a bit less particle and wave effects from some of the abilities. Things seemed a bit flashy, especially with only half a group at low level.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
I am especially concerned that the tank will become an irrelevant archetype given how boring and simplistic the threat/aggro mechanism seemed, and the limited functionality of tanks in PvP. If AoC is built to be a true PvX game then I feel the tank as shown will struggle for two reasons.
1st: Managing threat seems out of place with the general PvE design. Threat management IMO is inherently boring compared to other abilities; equipment is not class locked; players can choose from two archetypes when finalizing their class choice. These features combine for the high possibility Tank will just be outshined as a primary archetype compared to other classes with Tank builds.
2nd: As one of the designers mentioned in the video, tanks, threat, and aggro do not mean much in PvP. If the Tank cannot stand on its own in PvP, then it cannot stand on its in AoC. If players can ignore the tank's abilities, the archetype seems limited at best.
Still feel the mace/hammer looks a bit to "light"
There are no resistance when you hit the enemy at all and the hammer just goes from point A to point B. I would like of there to be more "crunch" in the hits.
Also the animations should be smoother, its very jerky robotic where it starts at point A, accelerates to 200 miles an hour and the stops abruptly at end.
I really enjoyed the updated video style released to YouTube. Showcasing the skills with explanations was an amazing way to prepare viewers for what was the coke, especially as it can be a little difficult to view exact skills in the heat of battle with so many other VFX going on!
I love the direction the tank is taking here. Intentional aggro skills, shield usage and positioning required, and blocking capabilities. I love the use of being able to block, but the stat usage and ability to do so should be altered to a degree so tanks can’t just stand there holding block, but giving players the agency to block at all is great. The CDs showcased were great, especially regarding the cone as that would be interesting to see if a boss or mob was preparing a heavy hit or something similar. I also loved the ability combos applied and it made me extremely eager to see those at a higher level! Seeing the shield rush and the knockdown was extremely satisfying to see as a combo.
The 2H sword, while a bit large for my taste, was something I would easily become okay with. I do not enjoy oversized weapons even in fantasy games as yes, it’s a fantasy game, but you’re a human, you can’t possibly lift that massive steel thing above your noggin, but the one displayed in the video was not over the top at all. The shield and warhammer looked great! I was all good with them there.
One such system of aggro I appreciate is that of “copy-aggro”, where essentially a ranger does 5 skills worth 500 damage to a move and the mob is attracted to the ranger. When a tank does a taunt, the tank gets that copy-aggro and essentially the mob believes the tank did that 500 damage, thus bringing aggro to the tank. The more the ranger damages the mob and builds up more threat, this would require the tank to apply another taunt to copy that aggro over. It’s not a perfect system but I imagine some elements might be interesting, who knows!
Overall, I enjoy the direction the tank archetype is going and am excited to see more.
Absolutely not, Asmon provides feedback on threat from a non tank main perspective, he plays tank to lead raids, not for the fun and chalenge of the role.
FFXIV for example has the easiest threat system in the genre, and it sucks, ask any FF player about tanking and they all will say that tank is the easiest role by far.
Threat management should be difficult enough to the point it makes a good tank stand out, but easy enough so a good tank performing well would never lose threat, one of the things I agree with Asmon is when he said "a tank that is correctly using his rotation shouldn't lose aggro", but in FFXIV you can literally do your rotation for 2 minutes and completely stop attacking for the rest of the 10m boss fight and you will never lose aggro, to me that is bad design and makes tank gameplay feel cheap an easy.
On a side note, you don't design tanks for "most people" you design the role for people wanting to main tanks, or otherwise tank mains will be the ones who are driven away from the role.
@AshRen I can agree with that statement. That if doing rotations properly (a good tank) is able to keep agro no problem. If that is the case then I do not have a problem.
My Concern:
My concern is a good tank still fighting and struggling heavily for agro.
My biggest concern is that the threat mechanic is all the tank has. Usually, games just focus on that mechanic. Which I think is poor design.
Which has been shown time and time again. Tank is one of the least played classes. Everyone always looking for a tank for PvP or PVE but you can't find one. Why?
In my opinion:
Because what does Tank have to offer?
- Ability and cool moves ..... nope mages win
- Cool melee combat.... nope fighters win
- Easy and simple..... nope healers win
- Difficulty and interesting..... varies per game but Tank is never that class
no.. tanks are cool because they are beefy awesome meat shields. A juggernaut that can take a beating and when you play a tank you feel like a tank!
So I feel that the mechanics should work around that. Focus on mechanics that require skill full timing on
-blocking an attack at the right time.
- using mitigations at the right time.
If I made a tank
Note: I am not a developer or am I saying Ashes will or should go do this. Since this is my opinion and Ashes team should create Steven's dream.
- A good tank won't lose agro, and a bad tank struggles to hold agro.
- Blocks doing more than mitigating or preventing damage. But can require some skill more than just holding the block button. But pressing it at the right time like Vahleim. Maybe even if you hold the block at the right time to block an attack it generates additional threat.
- Damage absorption/mitigation: Having abilities that mitigate more dmg but the tank does less dmg. Abilities as shown that absorb damage from a player. Or reduce damage from the enemy. So the tank can play around with how he wants to mitigate damage. But also, take risks for mitigating dmg.
So the end goal is a good Tank player can control the battlefield. Preventing dmg and taking it himself and providing cc and being a literal Tank. To increase difficulty including multiple mechanics and abilities for
- Health / Defense
- Mitigation /dmg reduction
- CC (Stuns, Taunts, Roots, Slows, Pulll ins)
This is what Ashes is doing, or it seems to be going that route. However, It just seemed that agro was the main focus and agro was barely held.
Just to clarify, I just disagree with Asmon's current views on MMOs, his opinions are in most cases direct opposite of the filosophies AoC is being built arround, that includes tanking, Asmon idea is tank not having to manage threat, I think threat should be as chalenging and involving as any other role main focus.
On the other hand I more or less agree with your vision of a tank, but I will disagree with you on your "cool llist":
This just makes no sense and theres is no argument at all to it, feel like your personal preference, if you are a tank you're actually in combat, a fighter is just using flashy moves on the monsters flank or rear, the main reson for people to chose the obvious "warrior" is because it's either OP or easy to play, then you have the third option, BIG SWORD!
This is probably your biggest mistake, wouldn't be surprised if you're called out by a lot of people for it, I know the days of wow healing when all you did was macro healing, but it's a bold move to assume every MMO is wow, healing as well as tanking, in most games are the most difficult roles, they have a big responsability and if they fail it's all over, again, WoW and FFXIV, in endwalker specially, have dumbed down these roles to make them more inclusive, and nowadays you can say they are easy is this 2 MMOs, but originally the king of easy and simple was usually DPS.
- Difficulty and interesting..... varies per game but Tank is never that class
Now this is where tanks and healers fall if you throw away all the cheating and "inclusive balance", or "making things easy for bad players" that WoW and FFXIV brought to their games, tanks and healer keep the party alive, and on top of that tanks have the task to lead the run, and depending on the game, pulll, and this is the reason tanks are the least played, not everyone wants to lead anything or take care of anyone's life, most people just want to step into the fight and slash/burn some monster rears.
As a curious personal experience, when FFXIV made tanks "cooler" and easier, the number of bad tanks increased, so yes, people would get faster into dungeons and other content, but a lot of times it would turn them into frustrating expereiences for a game that is supposed to be quick and frictionless. Meanwhile as a tank main those changes made me feel like half of the role was missing and I was just a tanky DPS with a very simple damage rotation, tanking became boring.
Comments
The example here is the fighter's hammer. When he triggers that, its just too much. Its big, its bright yellow, its long (2s or so) for an ability that has a short cooldown. I would say reduce its brightness by like 30%, its size by 20% and give it a clean edge, so the light dosent bleed into the environment that much .The ranger triple root ability is good, small green effect and then roots on the ground, its not flashy, but its obvious, more abilities like that.
The combat is too flashy, thats my problem right now. And considering the livestream was lvl 15, how is it gonna look at 50? In a raid of 40 people each using super flashy abilities?
As a kinda solution, would be the ability to turn down the effects on other player's abilities, but at the same time, you can't really do that, you need to see when your tank puts up Aegis, when the cleric puts the healing circle, that needs to be obvious.
Idk, have an option to tune down normal abilities from other players (and your own btw) but have a different slider for abilities that you can use (Aegis, healing etc)? That seems so much work though...
I like mana as resource, i play lineage2 and archeage and I never had a problem with class identity, even in the old diablo 1/2 everyone had mana as a resource.
if the mana spending is well thought out, as indicated on asheswiki(I think that people are unnecessarily looking for problems where there are none):
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Mana
personally, I don't like the system builder and spender as it is in wow on basically all classes, because then all classes look basically the same to me. 3 skills to build 3 skills to spend = boring.
( in wow I played or tried higher level (Paladin, Druid, Monk, Mage, and Envoker) except for mage and Envoker, the others were basically the same. and Mage + Evoker had a lot in common as well)
what i feel is missing though, is both a sense of uniqueness to the tank to distinguish it from other melee classes, and something to make it viable in pvp. lineage 2 did this pretty well imo. tanks recieved cubics (tbf a lot of classes had cubics, but the tank ones were the most interesting). each tank had pretty different set of cubics that did all sorts of things, but mainly they made soloing (and pvping) more possible for the tank.. at lvl 80 they all got some really cool party buffs as well. i think this would be really cool for tanks, since each sub type of tank could have a different cubic that did things to help them in battle, and they could each have a different, powerful party buff as well (also based on their subclass). that way, a traditionally pve focused class could have some flavor and utility outside of pve. this would also stop people from making their fighter crazy high dps to hold aggro, thereby making tanks useless (im looking at you lineage2 orc classes).
Honestly its fairly simple as a concept. Stop making every role a dps in mmos. Being a dps with defensive cooldowns is not a tank, Its a dps with defensive cooldowns. The best example of this is FF14 where its a struggle to even say that game has tanks.
Tanks should control the battlefield and pace of combat providing battlefield control and party support while taking the damage on to themselves. Having some damage is not a bad thing but it should also not be the primary function of the role.
So with that ramble out of the way, My job as a tank is at its most simplistic to take damage so the squishy's don't. Thats my role, How I generate that aggro should have WAY more choice. Where is our self heal tank, the CC tank, The Buff Tank ect.
You have plenty of DPS class combinations, Lets spread that love so we have some choice in tanking and healing as well other than a single class
The mechanic I would make around blocking is that it reduces your threat when hit while blocking. This mechanic would extend to every player in the context of the video. For the tank, they would try to build threat and mitigate as damage at the same time creating a unique mechanic for them to manage threat over the course of shorter and longer fights. So, if tanks just hold the block button without building proper threat, the mobs are just going to run wild and attack the rest of the team. For everyone else, if they pull aggro, in most mmos they are going to run away and stop damaging/healing trying to survive. With this system they could actually contribute to helping the tank get aggro back by blocking and kiting the mob back to the tank but could still just run if the scenario warranted it.
This eliminates adding a new resource to implement and manage just for blocking. This could turn into a different discussion for pvp purposes of infinite blocking which I don't believe would be an issue. If someone is blocking, then they aren't attacking or healing but are still taking damage. So, forcing them into a state of blocking just means you are winning.
I did mention however in another post I hope the tank has a bit more options when it comes to group oriented play/protection. I love the Aegis bubble and would like to see more things like that implemented. I even gave some examples in my other post such as a character swap ability or an AOE place able spell anywhere around you to be used by allies for a shield or damage mitigation but it can't be moved once placed, lasts a couple seconds, and is like a 10 meter circle as an example of a skill.
I myself am not big on warhammers. But from watching the gameplay I think the Warhammer attack speed should be slowed down just a tad bit, and I think the swings are too wide. It looks more like the greatsword swing and I'd like to see it a bit more controlled. As for the 2H sword, I think that looks great, I wouldn't change anything. It looks weighty, the swings have a good amount of time between them so it doesn't look unrealistic.
My only concern about the tank, is I don't think it generated enough threat. I would like it if all the tank skills generate threat, but there are specific moves that generate more threat than others. And as an example I think all the tanks skills should generate 10% more threat (the percentage may be too high, I'm not a game developer so maybe 5% is better maybe 15% is better.) But I'd like to see you as the tank be able to grab aggro if you were to use all skills that don't generate extra threat like the shield bash or lacerate (that might be the wrong skill name) of course it would make sense to be harder to generate threat without the high threat skills, but if you have a good rotation you can generate enough threat to hold aggro and that offers other playstyles
You have made some very good points here, I love the idea of active blocking reducing cooldowns or increasing charges on grit or something ^^ I made a very similar post called 'Active blocking and it's resource management' so I would love to hear your thoughts on it! Agreed that the active blocking is passive gameplay, it needs timing and resource management.
Edit: UI is looking nice and clean in it's first pass!
How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?
Regarding the direction of the tanks development, so far so good. I'm a bit concerned about it's gameplay potentially lacking an engaging playstyle. The footage we saw so far of all of the classes, not just the tank on the surface looks a tad whackamole at level 15.
I feel like the direction for the tank and other archetypes needs to have more built in stimulation for the player, combinations of abilities that can lead to differing outcomes, use grit? Your charge will inflict a bleed on the target, use your shout when aegis is up? Your shout applies a armour debuff to enemies. I'm sure this will all come with time when talents and augments are implemented. Also, dodges, let's see the tank have to dodge some near death abilities from their adversaries, not just at late game either, build that skill element of gameplay into the tank aswell as the DPS and healers!
I also feel like there should be a visual indicator showing who has aggro in the group, in other MMO's we have add-ons for this, without these add-ons we will need a little help, unless the visual indication in game is visually clear whilst in the thick of battle.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
In my honest opinion, I was not blown away by the abilities. I thought they were pretty cookie cutter. My biggest gripe was a point that one of the developers made at around 39 minutes into the YouTube video regarding the aegis and how it was redundant to use it for its intended purpose, this was because the other party members could just stand away from the cleave abilities and not unnecessarily pile damage onto the tank. Personally I'd really like to see the aegis take the form of a more "physical" shield, kind of like Reinhardt's shield in overwatch, it goes up, reduces the players speed, blocks a certain amount of damage and drops once depleted, therefore being useful to the tank for blocking big frontals and also useful to the party for blocking projectiles. I could imagine something like this being hugely beneficial in pvp and siege environments making tanks a much more desirable asset in the battlefield.
What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
Weapons sheathing when? Haha, but seriously, I can't properly give my feedback on the aesthetic of these weapons until I see them sheathed. As for the combat, I still feel like the weapon swings need to have a "wind up" where the weapon moves slower and ends with an emphatic swing to really depict that weight, at the moment the swings feel a little "one speed". I also think that a slower swing speed would really help to provide the visual "impact" that people are looking for in the comments. Personally I think that a slower swing speed will also make for more punishing PvP situations if people carelessly auto attack.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates
I am excited to see these abilities iterated upon, I'm concerned that this is the only abilities the classes will have for A2. I was also a little concerned about VFX clutter.
References to visual clutter below:
As a side note, I am also concerned about there not being an implemented stamina bar in a livestream with a feedback request on it, I think that would be a great step! I really think that sorting the direction for dodging and active blocking is crucial in designing meaningful and interactive combat. So far I am yet to see a PVE encounter with mobs in the previews that has gripped me, most has been mind numbing tank and spank. I understand it's alpha, but a few wind up frontals, projectiles or aoes wouldn't go amiss.
As always though, great stuff, chins up and go again next month with feedback in tow! GJ 🙂
Looks like its going in the right direction!
Only concern is FX/visual effect, it was a 4 man demonstration and already way too much epileptic & hard to see who does what. You need to be sober on those FX/skill visual effect. If its too much when we only have 4 players on a screen, what will it be when there willl be 8 man and more?
Very important to be subtle about that so its easily readable by everyone.
Hope you will understand the importance of that
Cheers
One thing for feedback: This is for all classes not just the tank, but I would love to add a little bit more variety to the basic attack, it seems to be an active part of combat not just filler so it would be nice if it had like a light and heavy attack by holding the key for the heavy and pressing for light, feel like it would add another layer to combat and would make the basic attack more diverse and immersive without having to completely rework combat and would make combat more impactful, switching between heavy and light attacks while waiting for skills to cool down. Also, having different attack speeds for different weapons would be great for immersion and making each weapon feel more real.
Yes and No
be nice to see different weapon (type) have different basic attack swings timer.
Sword would have 5 animation swing, ending with a big cleave: 1, 1.2, .7, .7, 1.5
rinse repeat for scimitar, mace, maul, hammer, spear, halberd, rapier.
So if you got 5 different rapier weapons, they animations are all the same cause it falls under Rapier Type.
Now, would something like that work in a MMORPG? or AoC? idk.
- Trees/foliage/banners/flags/fences should become semi transparent when occluding the visual of the character. e.g. at 11:47 of the tank showcase video.
- What's going on with that weird grabbing/aggroing from afar ability that seems to throw something? Is it a taunt?
- Will there be differences from blocking physical attacks and magical attacks? (PvE and PvP)
- Steven said that all classes can use active block but it will be less effective than the tank.
I worry about a scenario where it's just better to keep dpsing rather than blocking for non shield wielding classes because the damage mitigation of non-shield-active-blocking is lack luster so it's better to keep doing damage to the adversary thus killing him faster than he can kill you rather than mitigating some damage.
A redeemer from what i just described could be, say, that blocking an ability that would stun, knock you down or inflict a debuff/DoT would nullify the application of that effect/debuff on your character.
- I've seen instance of vfx from the ranger and paladin ending in a rectangular shape as if they are 2d vfxs applied on a flat geometry rectangular plane; those obviously need to be fixed. What i describe can be seen at 14:59 and in other instances during the video.
- The visuals of the damage numbers can be improved still.
- I feel like the effects on the ground at 19:07 made by abilities disappeared too fast or need a bit of fading transition.
At the same time I understand that if they don’t disappear quickly it would be too messy graphically.
- I like that you can miss your shield rush, it doesn’t seem to be the usual lock on ability like I’ve seen in other videogames.
- The general combat "style" of AoC, to me, feels like it lacks a unique style; i feel like when you see BDO/Wow/GW2 combat, you recognize the game instantly, just by looking at the combat.
In the last few combat showcases i've seen, i don't see/feel a distinct style in AoC.
- What's gonna be more common, resting to recover mana or using mp potions?
Is it like spending time vs spending in-game money to buy the pots (which is also spending time because you have to play to get the in-game money to buy them…).
- The grass looks really soft. Would stare up at the starts lying on it, 10/10.
- The running animation swinging that heavy mace up and down needlessly looks a bit stupid i must say.
It would be ok if holding a dagger but still...
Absolutely not, Asmon provides feedback on threat from a non tank main perspective, he plays tank to lead raids, not for the fun and chalenge of the role.
FFXIV for example has the easiest threat system in the genre, and it sucks, ask any FF player about tanking and they all will say that tank is the easiest role by far.
Threat management should be difficult enough to the point it makes a good tank stand out, but easy enough so a good tank performing well would never lose threat, one of the things I agree with Asmon is when he said "a tank that is correctly using his rotation shouldn't lose aggro", but in FFXIV you can literally do your rotation for 2 minutes and completely stop attacking for the rest of the 10m boss fight and you will never lose aggro, to me that is bad design and makes tank gameplay feel cheap an easy.
On a side note, you don't design tanks for "most people" you design the role for people wanting to main tanks, or otherwise tank mains will be the ones who are driven away from the role.
Tank was always going to be a messy reveal because of the cleric disposition. The cleric seemed to be designed to merge with the fighter rather than the tank. I realise synergies are good and I love the synergies but general combat should also be focused on.
I feel the run would have been more successful if the tank staggers damage like brewmaster monk or cleric has instant casts because the lack of dev cheats really did highlight the issues.
I realise the zone was for 8 players but the cleric barely spent manner and was very sluggish. The tank also lost threat too easily which could also explain the slow heals.
Edit: I see there are synergies between fighter, cleric and tank. I can't wait to try these parameters in A2. I feared cleric would have to synergise with fighter in every group but fighter and tank can also synergise with each other.
I feel the basic building blocks are excellent but the additions I've detailed would make the combat perfect.
The direction looks about right. Three things make me especially happy:
- [Grit] lets the tank have a highly active and high skillcap method of regulating damage. Things like this are needed on other classes too!
- [Aegis] exist as an example of a skill that lets the tank influence the survivability of the rest of the party. However, I would like to see a guarding mechanic where the tank can babysit party members one target at a time like Warhammer Online.
- The tank seems to have access into multiple CC abilities, which helps find it a place in PvP as an initiator/controller.
Couple things slightly worry me:- I'd like to see the tank being able to deal significant damage, and not just be a threat/cc machine. DPS roles should on average offer more damage, but I'd like to see the glassiest tank configuration outdamaging the tankiest DPS configuration. The current iteration seemed to be quite light on the damage.
- [Grapple] seems like absolute RNG cancer in PvP. If getting pulled is only a matter of a bad resistance roll, there is not much anyone can do about being yoinked into a zerg for instant death. Forcible relocation is veeery spooky to balance, even moreso when it's tab targeted and ranged. Maybe this skill is PvE only?
- Active blocking might end up being a too big part of the tank gameplay. Holding down right click might not be the most engaging thing ever.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?Mostly covered above. As for the rest, it's been covered by everyone: Animations are looking better than Alpha 1, but still too flashy blah blah.
What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
The swing timings could still use some tinkering. Generally looks okay though? (I'd prefer the shield not being swung to the side during swings because that's dumb, but hey this is high fantasy with shirtless dualwielding men.)
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
Hopefully the mob AI gets improved a bit with better movement and more attacks. But I guess I'd play even with 2004 mob behavior patterns.
Yes, I agree with the guard function from Warhammer Online. I've also requested Cleric gets dual targeting like the healers in Warhammer Online.
I loved the look of the armor set at the end and I'm excited to see what other heavy armor set models are present within in the game.
I would however like to see some changes or additions made to the player skills. I think given the nature of some of the skills as well as the general flow of cool downs and fight knowledge of when to use/save skills, it would be nice if some of the lower cooldown skills possessed some manner of damage reduction attached to them. A passive buff that lasts for 3-5 seconds or simply a buff that lasts for the duration of the animation. Building on that idea even further, as the players level up and skill attributes can be chosen, having the choice between adding said damage reduction or choosing to boost damage output would be a great in scenarios where a player may want to customize their kit further.
I think Grit is a fantastic skill that would require some measure of thought to optimize a fight. It's both very rewarding and punishing all at the same time and I quite enjoy this balance. One idea that I would like to explore is the conversion of Courage stacks when consumed into another stack of buffs or a buff with a duration that increases aggro dealt or even damage dealt, playing off of the previous skill customization idea.
Now, I'm not going to lie, I've got mixed feelings about Aegis. I see the risk vs reward factor at play here but the skill itself, as of right now in my mind, seems like it would be too situational for the risk factor involved within a given scenario. Dropping the damage redirected toward the tank may be the best way to go about it but I'd like to see what others have to say with regards to Aegis. I also have no idea what other boss or mob mechanics will be present within in the game so I'm basing this opinion off of previous experiences and encounters.
All in all I'm quite pleased with the progress. I'd definitely love to see how using other weapons affect tanking if at all and what other builds and skills might be available for use. I hope that there is some variety over simple one hand and shield for tanking builds in the most intense situations. Active blocking is a win for me as I am fond of action combat and active blocking. TERA was one of my favorite games and I absolutely loved tanking in that game. Nonstop fun for hours and challenging myself to get my blocks right. I wouldn't be mad if inspiration was taken from the Warrior or Lancer classes when expanding on the archetype.
Great job! I'm really looking forward to seeing more updates and your thoughts on feedback so far!
1. In alpha 1 all the classes had different health scaling, the Tank obviously having the most health in the end. I don't expect it to be the same as was showcased, but all the players had the same exact max life which felt extremely low. It is really hard to show off a Tank's gameplay if they aren't the beefiest boys in the room.
2. There isn't enough skills that generate additional threat, or at least the descriptions of the skills didn't mention it. It was rather apparent when it became difficult for Steven to hold aggro on anything.
3. I'd like to suggest renaming 'Shield Assault' to 'Assault' and when a shield is equipped it becomes 'Shield Assault'. That way a Tank can still utilize their kit if their shield happens to break or if they want to play an off meta build. A charge and swing with the weapon that doesn't stun a shaken target unless a shield is equipped perhaps.
4. It seems like Shield Assault also applied a snare. It would be nice to see that in the description or perhaps 'shaken' also counts as a snare. I guess it would be nice to see a full list of different conditions that can be applied to targets in one of the showcases so we know what is being showcased when a skill says it applies 'shaken' or 'staggered' on a target.
5. Inciting Strikes is a good skill as it generates extra threat, but it should probably do more damage as well. It did less damage with those two swings than either Shield Bash or Tremoring Bellow did. In a pvp situation, this skill seems useless if it's sole purpose is generating threat.
6. Tremoring Bellow would be a perfect skill to add extra threat generation to. An AoE threat generating skill is needed in group content and may have saved some of the party members when multiple mobs were pulled. I'd also suggest changing the 'staggered' condition it applies to the 'shaken' condition so it has more synergy with Shield Assault.
7. Grit seems like the perfect skill to add increased threat generation to all actions. A toggleable buff that reduces damage output means you'll be generating less threat so it would be nice to see some extra threat generation to make sure you can still hold aggro while trying not to die.
8. Aegis seems like a cool skill, but doesn't work the best in practice. Most of the time the Tank should be trying to face the mobs away from the DPS rather than have everyone stack in front of it. I'd suggest a dome centered around the Tank rather than behind it. Another reason for this is so Tanks aren't just sitting in the back, facing away during pvp to keep their allies from taking damage.
9. Aegis also shouldn't last nearly as long or shouldn't begin it's cooldown until the skill has ended. As it is now, it only has 5 seconds of downtime.
10. I don't know if the intention is to still have tiers of skill level that does more the more you invest into it, but grapple should work the way it did in Alpha 1 at max level. That skill was perfect for keeping aggro as a tank as it forced the mob to target you. It was the only way to put yourself at the top of the threat list no matter how hard someone else was DPSing or healing.
11. None of the skills listed the mana cost for using or activating them when they were hovered over. I'd also like to see how long buffs and debuffs last in the skill description.
12. As a non technical thing, I'd like to see the sit animation compress the grass down like skills do so there aren't just blades of grass spewing out of your character when you sit.
In all, it felt like it needed a lot more ways to generate extra threat. It's hard to showcase a class filling it's role in a party when the essentials it needs to fill that role aren't there.
I think the overall direction of the tank is a good one. I like that it distinguishes itself from the fighter by being more defensive and control focused. Also, please rename to something in setting. It just seems like a large contrast from the 64 individually named classes and the 7 other archetypes.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
I thought the abilities were a cool foundation for the archetype. However, I would personally like to see much greater emphasis placed on things like crowd controlling mobs and mitigating party damage. The coolest ability was when the tank was combo stomping the bosses onto the ground. The most underwhelming by far was when the tank just added threat and nothing really happened.
What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
I thought the Warhammer and 2H sword both looked good. The basic attacks look fluid and impactful. I would like to see a bit less particle and wave effects from some of the abilities. Things seemed a bit flashy, especially with only half a group at low level.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
I am especially concerned that the tank will become an irrelevant archetype given how boring and simplistic the threat/aggro mechanism seemed, and the limited functionality of tanks in PvP. If AoC is built to be a true PvX game then I feel the tank as shown will struggle for two reasons.
1st: Managing threat seems out of place with the general PvE design. Threat management IMO is inherently boring compared to other abilities; equipment is not class locked; players can choose from two archetypes when finalizing their class choice. These features combine for the high possibility Tank will just be outshined as a primary archetype compared to other classes with Tank builds.
2nd: As one of the designers mentioned in the video, tanks, threat, and aggro do not mean much in PvP. If the Tank cannot stand on its own in PvP, then it cannot stand on its in AoC. If players can ignore the tank's abilities, the archetype seems limited at best.
There are no resistance when you hit the enemy at all and the hammer just goes from point A to point B. I would like of there to be more "crunch" in the hits.
Also the animations should be smoother, its very jerky robotic where it starts at point A, accelerates to 200 miles an hour and the stops abruptly at end.
Dark Souls has good hammer/mace animations but still not "meaty" enough
and For Honor (still not perfect either)
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I love the direction the tank is taking here. Intentional aggro skills, shield usage and positioning required, and blocking capabilities. I love the use of being able to block, but the stat usage and ability to do so should be altered to a degree so tanks can’t just stand there holding block, but giving players the agency to block at all is great. The CDs showcased were great, especially regarding the cone as that would be interesting to see if a boss or mob was preparing a heavy hit or something similar. I also loved the ability combos applied and it made me extremely eager to see those at a higher level! Seeing the shield rush and the knockdown was extremely satisfying to see as a combo.
The 2H sword, while a bit large for my taste, was something I would easily become okay with. I do not enjoy oversized weapons even in fantasy games as yes, it’s a fantasy game, but you’re a human, you can’t possibly lift that massive steel thing above your noggin, but the one displayed in the video was not over the top at all. The shield and warhammer looked great! I was all good with them there.
One such system of aggro I appreciate is that of “copy-aggro”, where essentially a ranger does 5 skills worth 500 damage to a move and the mob is attracted to the ranger. When a tank does a taunt, the tank gets that copy-aggro and essentially the mob believes the tank did that 500 damage, thus bringing aggro to the tank. The more the ranger damages the mob and builds up more threat, this would require the tank to apply another taunt to copy that aggro over. It’s not a perfect system but I imagine some elements might be interesting, who knows!
Overall, I enjoy the direction the tank archetype is going and am excited to see more.
On the other hand I more or less agree with your vision of a tank, but I will disagree with you on your "cool llist":
Very relative, mages are usually flashier, but there's a lot of people who think they are lame.
This just makes no sense and theres is no argument at all to it, feel like your personal preference, if you are a tank you're actually in combat, a fighter is just using flashy moves on the monsters flank or rear, the main reson for people to chose the obvious "warrior" is because it's either OP or easy to play, then you have the third option, BIG SWORD!
This is probably your biggest mistake, wouldn't be surprised if you're called out by a lot of people for it, I know the days of wow healing when all you did was macro healing, but it's a bold move to assume every MMO is wow, healing as well as tanking, in most games are the most difficult roles, they have a big responsability and if they fail it's all over, again, WoW and FFXIV, in endwalker specially, have dumbed down these roles to make them more inclusive, and nowadays you can say they are easy is this 2 MMOs, but originally the king of easy and simple was usually DPS.
Now this is where tanks and healers fall if you throw away all the cheating and "inclusive balance", or "making things easy for bad players" that WoW and FFXIV brought to their games, tanks and healer keep the party alive, and on top of that tanks have the task to lead the run, and depending on the game, pulll, and this is the reason tanks are the least played, not everyone wants to lead anything or take care of anyone's life, most people just want to step into the fight and slash/burn some monster rears.
As a curious personal experience, when FFXIV made tanks "cooler" and easier, the number of bad tanks increased, so yes, people would get faster into dungeons and other content, but a lot of times it would turn them into frustrating expereiences for a game that is supposed to be quick and frictionless. Meanwhile as a tank main those changes made me feel like half of the role was missing and I was just a tanky DPS with a very simple damage rotation, tanking became boring.