Okay, I watched the second video. My previous points are still relevant, but this definitely proved my point that the content in these videos needs to be ran through once as a test before the actual video is shot. The commentary still needs to be done afterwards as a voiceover. The real time commentary was better in the second video, but it could’ve still been clearer, more organized, and more thorough if it were done without trying to play the game at the same time.
Don’t give us a new player persona. We’re not newbies. Explain the content thoroughly, give us clear visual displays, but don’t put on a persona. We’re all hardcore mmo players. That seems to be your target audience, after all. We generally know how these games work. We want to know how YOUR version works.
Let's say this Louder. Copy/Paste
{UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
Some preface, I've been tanking in MMO's since the dinosaur ages of UO and Everquest. Ive continued doing so through the classic wow era up to now. So I have a good deal of experience in the role and how its evolved over the years.
How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?
Not a fan at all really. This has less to do with the class design and more of the overall archetype system. Its always said how we get to play how we want but Tank minded players are restricted to a single primary class. What if we do not enjoy or find the "Tank" Toolkit exciting?. in a game with 64 class combinations, Being restricted to a mere 8 of them is really upsetting. I feel for healers as well as they are in a similar boat. You should HEAVILY consider expanding the spread of tanking and healing classes.
Some of us dont care about dps and I think we should be considered in the design process at least to a minor extent.
care to share how you would design it or improve on it. Not being sarcastic or anything negative here. I am not a tank main, but more info and ideas of what matters with Tank Mains if they are consulted and helped during this process, as you stated. How would it look like.
{UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
I was watching the recent video on the tank and was wondering how viable the tank would really be in PvP, and after reading the skills it kinda seems like it would be absolutely useless in PvP and just end up being locked into PvE.
I thought of how the ranger has a short bow and a longbow and it changes how it plays depending on which it uses which is cool and why not apply that to the tank?
When using the sword and shield it could have all the abilities shown in the video with taunts and threat generation but give tanks an option to have a 2-hander equipped which would also change what those skills do to be more viable in a PvP scenario. Maybe giving the skills more CC, DoT or maybe giving huge defensive buffs to allies near you to make the enemy want to target you.
Just an idea I wanted to throw out there and maybe start talks on ideas of what they could do with this archetype instead of it being the generic tank in every MMO
I was watching the recent video on the tank and was wondering how viable the tank would really be in PvP, and after reading the skills it kinda seems like it would be absolutely useless in PvP and just end up being locked into PvE.
I thought of how the ranger has a short bow and a longbow and it changes how it plays depending on which it uses which is cool and why not apply that to the tank?
When using the sword and shield it could have all the abilities shown in the video with taunts and threat generation but give tanks an option to have a 2-hander equipped which would also change what those skills do to be more viable in a PvP scenario. Maybe giving the skills more CC, DoT or maybe giving huge defensive buffs to allies near you to make the enemy want to target you.
Just an idea I wanted to throw out there and maybe start talks on ideas of what they could do with this archetype instead of it being the generic tank in every MMO
I like the concept that in design anything that generates threat has an additional ability that would have value in pvp. That way you aren't punished for being a tank with pve talents in pvp and vice versa. Whether it is debuffs, cc, or whatever you pair with it... that would solve a big balance and talent problem you would have tanks face in Ashes "choices matter" environment.
Good job to the specific devs who took the time to re-shoot the showcase posted to YT. It was a much better demonstration and walk-thru for us viewers.
My takeaways (not all related to the Tank showcase):
Mobs:
*They look nice visually
*Some sword mobs have very fast cleave melee swings (Oakenbane and Sargent of the Grove) that I'm not entirely for or against atm. Its very different than most games. On face value melee swings look strange but maybe its something we'll get used to over time. Some of the mobs that used maces had very slow wind ups and attack swings. They could be brought closer together as right now the weapon animations don't look like they belong in the same game.
*I much prefer Lord Oakenbane's softer melee attack audio than the audio soundbyte's our characters have. The boss mob's is more pleasing and less irritating compared to character melee attacks which sound grating.
Tank Role/Function:
*Formations - please scrap this idea for all roles. No interest in this type of game play in a pvp game. I don't want to see it from the tank or for any of the support roles dictating a power trooper dance formation. Please just no.
*I'd rather see a different resource bar such as Stamina for tanks, besides mana shown that was more tempo based.
*Active Blocking - There has been a lot of good feedback provided on this and I agree with most of it. I prefer blocking like Braum has in League of Legends where its a CD ability for a short window strategic use, rather than holding a button down for long periods and strafing around (seems pretty boring) and not as engaging for the player.
*I'd like to see the Tank have a push back ability with their shield where they displace enemies in the direction the tank moves/dashes with the ability in to control the fight.
*Tank needs more hp/better individual defensive mitigation ability that allows them to tank damage without having a pocket healer follow them around. Tanks need a better self-mitigation ability that doesn't counter-act their main role (taking/holding aggro). Having Grit ability counter-act their main function I don't think is necessary. It's a false choice. Allow tanks to have mitigation and tank. Why is it one or the other? That will just artificially cause tanks to be poor at their job. Let's not build in flaws like that into their core skills.
*Harpoon ability - Was this an invisible pull? I didn't see anything actually pulling mobs. Can this be dodged or blocked by another enemy tank to protect their teammate in pvp or will this be a tab-target yeet ability without counter-play?
* The scream and stomp ability needs more range. Its aoe is way too small to be effective in pvp other than to chain cc players after pulling with harpoon or Shield Assault dash. Basically tanks will be a combo cc chain or do nothing atm in pvp. Not the worst place to be but most dislike chain cc, and that seems to be the only thing tanks will offer.
Tank Taunt/Aggro Mgmt:
*Don't make a Tank's job a pain like in NW where getting/taking/holding aggro is a headache and frustrates everyone including the tank. Give the tank ample ways to obtain aggro for single pulls and group pulls, and take it back from group members who momentarily take it.
*The old school mmo everyone wait 10 seconds for the tank to go slap mobs is outdated and should not be a Tanking principle or group mechanic that AoC marries itself too imo. Get rid of the need for all party members to stand around repetitively for the beginning of every fight doing nothing and bored while their tank plays solo rp. Make the tank role/abilities more competent so everyone can play the game at the same time and faster paced. If the bow user or melee dps pulls aggro it shouldn't matter. The tank should be perfectly able to walk over and take the aggro away every time outside of boss fights. Why are we stuck with Healers that use DoT's taking aggro to begin fights in so many MMO's? It isn't interesting, fun, enjoyable etc. Make the tanks good at their job. Don't give them inferior tools so group play is tedious and slow because everyone else has to slow their game play down to the dumbest common denominator, the tanks few taunting/aggro management tools.
Misc Feedback:
*The Party kumbaya sitting/resting mechanic repeatedly slowing down mmo game play feels like a survival game mechanic from Valheim. Please don't make this a thing that is required. We all have limited time to play and even in the demo showcases multiple minutes were wasted for this rp opt-in element. It shouldn't govern or slow down gameplay. Mana should regen very quickly after combat or we need to have consumables we can pop as you don't have time if pounced on by a pvp interaction and again don't waste our time. Learn from New World. They introduced the mmo with a lot of survival elements and over time due to player feedback have removed most of them as they don't have a place in mmo's.
*PVE Raid boss/dungeon boss design - Is there a plan for how they will intertwine with player combat, abilities, and cool downs. It doesn't feel like there is a plan in place yet. Has there been any broader thought put into the overall combat theory the game wants to move forward with. I don't prefer Lost Ark's combat, but player abilities and dashes do jive with how their boss fights are constructed. The game has synergy and it feels cohesive and fun to play due to this as there is a good balance of challenge married to the tools you have at your disposal to clear the content.
*Character size/scaling compared to environment still looks too small at times even when not zoomed out. At 32:35 on the most recent Tank dev vid posted to Youtube, Steven's character is travelling up a sloped path and brush is on both sides. The grass and small bushes look huge in comparison to the player models. Either the brush/foliage needs to go down or the player models need to be scaled up. This isn't even with the smaller races displayed either.
*Visual clutter from ability and attack animations/effects: Nearly all of the abilities and weapon swing trails are very bright and shades of white/yellow or feint blue that's translucent and appears white. It all blends in to be a visually cluttered mess. One thing League of Legends does very well is they design abilities with the specific intent to illustrate what generally the ability does to tell a clear story to players as to what is happening on their screen and they can make sense of it. In AoC when everything is a blur of white effects splashed around the mob its unintelligible and difficult to decipher what is going on.
*I'd change melee effect swings to look more like wind/translucent to show their swing arc and get rid of the clutter of their TRON motorcycle like trails they leave everywhere that are messy.
*The lightning minion attacks were nicely done.
*The character abilities flattening areas of brush are well done.
*Give all character roles the tools they need from the start to enjoy the game. Don't give characters bad tools that make them incompetent and have an unfun experience until they obtain the tools they need to perform their role (1h weapon and shield for a tank). Levelling shouldn't go from early levels = bad experience to later levels = good experience. It should be closer to early levels = fun but not very powerful to later levels = fun and high impact, or something along those lines.
Looking forward to what you have in store for us this year.
How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?
8/10. I like the direction, but I do have some issues regarding execution. I hope that more "presence" is given to the Tank role through animations, audio and abilities.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
7/10. Shield assault was good. Although I feel the animation is too fast and choppy. I think it could benefit from having a press, hold and charge mechanic similar to the Ranger's Snipe ability. The longer it is held the more damage dealt and the duration of the shaken/stun condition increases.
8/10. Inciting Strikes Liked it but felt one dimenionsal. I feel like this ability could really benefit from a stacking "Bleed" mechanic that with each strike would apply a "Bleeding Cut" stack. When a certain number of stacks are built a follow-up "Super Strike" ability can be executed.
9/10. Tremoring Bellow Was excellent! Loved the shout, the stomp animation and the impact on the ground/with the foliage. It would be nice if the damage on the ground and across the affected foliage was in the shape of a cone emanating from the player which clearly telegraphed the abilities AOE template.
7/10. Grit Decent, although I feel like the animation could use more definition and I think the slow could be reflected in the movement animation. (The character taking a slightly hunched bulwark stance)
8/10 Aegis Really like the concept of this ability but I think it would really benefit from a telegraphed triangular AOE emanating from the player. Being able to see clearly if you are protected or not by if you are standing in the AOE would offer a much better gameplay experience IMO.
6/10 Grapple Whilst I understand that this ability was missing VFX, I'm not sure If I actually like the concept of this ability. Whilst I absolutely do think that a Tank should have the ability to pull a single target. I feel like a chain or rope/whip/lasso type ability would be better suited to the Fight archetype or even the Rogue or Ranger archetypes.
What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
If I was to be picky I would say that I think the swords are a little too big. Not by much, but they are right at the very edge of looking off to me. Although in saying that I really liked the hammer, which was pretty chunky. The improved VFX of the Sword/Hammer ability on the ground was great. Although a general comment would be that generally less is more when it comes to SFX.
Is there anything, in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
I'm encouraged by what we saw regarding UI. The Quest Journal looks really nice. I do hope that they go through and include, then highlight, pertinent information on abilities in other Menus and Tabs.
Some of these further points have been addressed and I look forward to seeing more on them but a few things.
Tone down VFX on abilities. Less is more.
Improved Nameplates.
Better telegraphing of abilities. (Ground-based templates would be awesome)
Other than that I enjoyed it. Liked what I saw mostly and still see it within the context of Alpha development.
I'm just here to post that it was this video that got me hooked for good. I plan to buy in now, and would love to start testing, but I have to decide which package is the best value for me.
I'm looking forward to tanking again!
As for feedback, the one thing I want to be able to do is use my shield all by itself as mitigation. I just want to make sure I'm able to position myself between the mob and a companion and absorb blows simply by actively blocking with my shield.
Oh, and I'm sorry I missed the kickstarter Only just learned about this game a couple months ago thanks to Narc and Force Gaming showing up in my feed.
I think you guys need to redefine the tank role, compared to traditional mmos. As Ashes is pvx, and specially includes pvp, those traditional ideas don't work so simply. I think Dred (well, one of the voices in the video) put it really well. When you remove threat mechanics from skills, they make no sense (i.e., skill that generates thread does nothing in pvp). Hence, I think it would be good to desing all the skills in pvp context first to make sure it's good. After the pvp "works", you would adapt it to pve by making the npc behave like a player. This means, the threat would be implied by the strategy the players uses. Of course, in the implementation, a skill could cumulate a threat value, depending on how the enemy AI (and group AI or such) works. In other words, I think tank should clearly focus on crowd control, damage redirection and so on.
Assuming the classes have some arch type: warrior would be melee damage, ranger ranged damage and so on. Combining tank with either of those, would generate a generic damage crowd control. Ranger tank would use more ranged crowd control, like rooting and slowing enemies or such. Likewise, Warrior tank would use melee range control, like damage redirection, pulling one or multiple enemies to it and so on.
I also noticed leash mechanic and that enemies just stand in the area. Maybe enemies/npcs should have reason or agenda. They could be patrolling or defending an area, and thus would prefer to kill the player or drive them out of the area (the leash). However, when returning back from driving the player away, they would keep eye out for the player (after all, they want to make sure the player leaves the area). Thus, the npc should select a new target or meet with it's friend or such logical and not just rubber band back to original position without looking around (like the enemy does in the video).
I love the looks of the zones. What I would have liked to see though is the correct number of people running the content, made for the zone. So if it is meant for a party of 8, then run with an 8 man team. This helps people in seeing how difficult it will be, for the size of team in mind when that area and npc were created. Also it would have been nice to have the camera angle panned out more.... so we could see more on how the other toons interacted with the targets as well. Steven would shield but at times I could not tell if it was only blocking him or the entire group from damage... was the damage doing a cone effect and damaging people not directly behind.. could they be slightly off center and still take less damage to some extent. Graphics looked fantastic, amazing looking spells, but kind of got a bit tunnel visioned in sections. If all we could see is the tank being out doing it's thing then why have a group? Why also have a smaller group then what the area was designed for? Look forward to the other streams and see how the classes continue to improve.
The combat looks good, keyword being "looks", can't really say how good it actually feels without playing obviously.
Now, i've been waiting for a game for me to tank in again, after Tera it has been absolutely impossible to me to tank in any other MMO, unfortunately I dont think AoC will be it...
I love active blocks and completely despise passive mitigation, and the active block in AoC just doesnt seem satisfying and interactive enough.
Edit: oh and that yellow hammer ability looks dumb af.
" Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?"
I think the updates are rushed and done in an amateur fashion.
And (yes I know it's early alpha but...) the attack animations don't look good.
They look too fast, they make too much light (they're too flashy, too much firework spectacle) and the movement is un-natural-choppy.
I strongly believe you should just postpone such showcases indefinetly until you had high quality content to show and pre-record it.
"How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?"
I think it's a good start... a good base to build on.
"What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?"
I really liked the the Aegis one (the one which allowed you to absorb damage taken by your allies, if said allies rally behind you).
"What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?"
Really disliked the hammer.
It looked goofy, too cartoonish being so big yet held without effort by the character.
If the character holding it were a dwarf or an orc or brutish tulnar, then I would not find it problematic... however, a human holding such a big hammer that way looked silly.
The hammer should have been more real-life-like (smaller) when held by humans or elves.
I would just like to say I really liked the look of the tank especially for it being only at level 15, it kind of reminds me of my time playing a tank back in EQ2. Great job so far.
Looking forward to seeing those additional threat management skills, and maybe counter skills based off the type of damage you active block.
Obviously the threat needs some tuning as well as the TTK and clearer indicators of who has threat but I have confidence that will come with more play testing as you move towards alpha 2.
As far as active blocking goes have you considered not linking it to a mana/stamina cost at all and instead just preventing/reducing mana/stamina recovery while active blocking, or just simply having the effectiveness of its mitigation reduce the longer it is held.
•How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?
- Holding aggro should be very basic part of being a tank, not very difficult at all. Thats the entire reason the tank exist, to control the mobs.
•What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
- They are alright i guess. I can say one thing about the bubble/shield ability though. In those PVE encounters it makes very little sense to have to stand behind the tank and get the benefit of the shield. That is an ability that work much better when you are holding a chokepoint/bottleneck area or hundreds vs eachother in an open area in PVP and you want to protect the dps and healers behind you from range dps.
•What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
- Im going to be annoying and say the same thing I have said numerous times. The way he holds the shield looks nonchalant and not very heroic. In a limp arm, sideways. BLEH!!
•Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
- I am concerned that the tank will not hold aggro very well, wich imo should be very basic part of the tank role. Not some balancing annoying minigame vs your own teammates.
I liked the potential of the tank, you can see the essence of its true role even at low levels.
What I don't like is that the basic attacks have so many light effects and FVX. For short battles it's fine, but I don't want to imagine a massive PvP with so many lights.
How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?
I absolutely love it. My primary tanking experience is from playing a Prot Warrior in WoW; it sets the tone for how I want my tank to feel. This comes down to needing a handful of things; mobility, ccs, gap closers, self-mitigation, and party mitigation. On top of having all of that at level 15 on the Tank Archetype, you all even introduced a build and spend mechanic which I literally screamed at my computer when I saw it! Also with active blocking, I see a massive opportunity for some really dynamic gameplay. I know threat generation seemed to be difficult but I almost want it to be after seeing some interplay with the abilities
For example, you’re fighting a mob and it breaks aggro, you rush using your shield assault, reposition yourself to take the cleaves while you raise your shield, and then pop the Shield of Aegis having allies fall back behind you before you take a brief moment to lower the shield to stop and snare the enemy.
The potential this has for immersive gameplay is amazing!
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
I love the kit. One thing that I think would be awesome would be to have an alternative to Grit for PvP called Rage, something that has an opposite effect where you can do an AoE debuff that increases your intimidation to other players, increasing your damage done to them but reducing your mitigation, the longer they ignore the tank in PvP the more deadly they become and potentially increase your speed as well.
Along with all of that, the animations look amazing and I can’t wait to see what grapple looks like when it's done!
What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
In general, I’m not a big fan of greatswords but I really loved the weight that the Warhammer had and the shield gameplay looks great! I’m excited when we can get an axe and shield combo previewed!
Is there anything, in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
My only concern is with threat, but I’m also wondering if maybe threat should be complex or even break during combat to have the immersive and dynamic gameplay I suggested earlier. I love that you have to do calculated slow pulls and that having too many enemies is a TPK. All in all, you guys did an amazing job with the tank and I absolutely loved the live stream. The second recording was nice to have and I mainly liked that one because we got to see a bit more into the party loot rules system.
Keep up the great work everyone!
Also PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE keep the active block, I think adding stamina in as a resource would be a great idea!
Don’t give us a new player persona. We’re not newbies. Explain the content thoroughly, give us clear visual displays, but don’t put on a persona. We’re all hardcore mmo players. That seems to be your target audience, after all. We generally know how these games work. We want to know how YOUR version works.
I just want to magnify this quote. The people following this game and keeping up with these live streams are your active player base who have a sense of what's going on AND are here for a game with some pretty hardcore PvP rules.
Yes, please drop the newbie Personna - at least until you start doing your marketing leading up to actual Beta and v1.0 launch. OR get Margaret to showcase it and be the newbie. Steven is the guy with the vision that are all here for - and it looks really bad when he's bumbling around like he doesn't know what's going on in his own game.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Feedback on the showcase.
Floating windows for quests, map, inventory etc not sure what to say other than I thought floating windows went out of fashion many years ago..redundant when compare to fuller screens and simpler switching between menus
Q) How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?
A) Great. Improve the existing Tank fantasy with better and more interesting ways to tank, exactly like the Aegis skill does right now.
Q) What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
A) It looks great and seems to be useful in PvP and PvE simultaneously. The only thing i feel like could be improved is the tooltips, when hovering over the skills, give a better breakdown of how much damage it does and what it scales off of. A great example is how League of Legends' tooltips break it down in detail.
It shows:
The type of damage, how much damage is added because of your gear, mana cost, cooldown, and any tips necessary (something the tremoring bellow skill could use since the skill, from the explaination during stream, has a second unexplained by the tooltip element to it. Which would be nice to know!)
They also try to colorcode specific parts of their text to indicate effects/damage types/stacks/references to other abilities if combo'd. Its extremely clear and allows you to build characters without second guessing if the skills even get affected by or do a specific type of damage.
Also, info on the aegis skill like "Damage is diverted to you BEFORE mitigation" is critical to know. Info of the same "informative level" if you will should be added to any tooltip if applicable.
Q) What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
A) Looks okay, i don't know if the regular attacks of the hammer pull you forward automatically, but if yes, please remove. Have the attack pull you forward if you W while attacking, if you're not then don't.
If that's the case already, ignore this feedback .
Q) Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
A) Concerned about it being difficult to see where your threat stands during a fight. If the tooltip just says "you gain heavy threat".... how far ahead am i really before teammembers surpass my threat?
A second point is using mana to block instead of stamina. I'd much prefer the dodge roll and block to consume stamina rather than the vital resource to function as a tank. Misjudging the amount of attacks coming in, blocking and be OOM afterwards leaving you stranded seems like a worse alternative than being out of stamina and not being able to block/dodge roll anymore.
Misc:
- Have passive resource regen in combat, excellerated resource regen out of combat, and bonus resource regen when sitting down. Having to sit every time after a engage gets boring fast in my opinion.
- Wording used in tooltips have to be crystal clear as well in my opinion. If it says: "Healing skill: Using this heal skill heals for x and cleanses all statusses" and then there's a second skill that says: "Buff: Your next heal skill used branches out to 3 other allies" its unclear from the get-go that it could potentially apply the effects of the first skill to other allies too. It would be better if: "Buff: All the effects of your next healing skill used branches out to 3 other allies within x meters"
From just reading that you can already assume all effects will be applied to allies too without guesswork, and you will know at what range you have to be. (Might be useful to add a "x meter to target" on a targets healthbar once highlighted)
I understand all the negativity that is now pouring out on the last broadcast, but a very simple thought came to me - at the moment we are going only a very small part of the general idea, we see the forest but we do not know what is in this forest. Therefore, I have not lost my optimism and, as an old tank player, I think that the overall philosophy of the class is correct, and I'm waiting for when we can see a truly complete picture of game design.
Please expand the courage mechanics like the conviction mechanics for Cleric. It would be nice if the Tank skills are expanded to do different applications in PvP but Aegis, Grit and Damage Reflection would be a good start for a PvX base.
How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?
The YouTube video was awesome. I don't think holding back on damage to avoid pulling aggro is fun. That being said if threat is a mechanic then there needs to be some indication of high high your threat is otherwise it's just a guessing game.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
- I really like the tank's abilities so far.
- Toggleable abilities like GRIT should indicate if they are active on the action bar.
What are your thoughts regarding the shield shown in the January livestream?
Active Blocking should be more meaningful. It should block 100% of damage but have a cooldown or use a lot of resources so it's reserved for blocking telegraphed high damage attacks. Just holding block isn't fun.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
- The animation of mobs getting hit is great.
- I'd love to see health bars below enemy nameplates. Also to make combat more interesting: Make enemy castbars visible to the players and have interrupting enemy casts be a part of combat.
- Respawn was too fast.
Please just hire Korean/Japanese combat designers, and ditch tab-targeting all-together.
Throne and Liberty and Archeage 2 is coming out, please go play it and leave AoC alone 🙏 No korean combat here, that sucks and we don't want it.
That is an uncalled for criticism against a country clearly passionate and more focused towards multiplayer experiences that involve more than just the typical western style of just throwing players together in usually a co-op manner to experience a story scenerio where PvE difficulty is mainly comprised of trial and error rather than a focus on common sense with the tools at your disposal (and that's pretty much it for the longevity of WoW and FF14's gameplan...).
Korean combat in the past, even though fairly basic in comparison to the constant short skill cooldown rotato system of wow and 14 incorperated both PvE and PvP as a main feature which does not alienate the main purpose of an online experience involving many players. Then BDO came along and showcased some really "bad ass" mechanics involving reactionary and enjoyable gameplay outside of the rotato dps meter style, regardless of making group and role gameplay pretty null in comparison.
You shouldn't blame a person for wanting more interactive gameplay and that is exactly what Ashe's and its skill choices is focusing on and Steven understands this from his mmorpg choice background.
I'd like to add the feedback for @MargaretKrohn that I really appreciate the new video recording not being made in ultra-wide, this makes it so much better for us content creators not having to edit the black bars on like in all the other 4k ultra-wide videos
- I just finished watching the A2 Tank Preview and my thoughts are below. I have not read any others opinion in this thread so apologies if these ideas have already been discussed.
How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?
- I think the overall direction is going well. Tanks should be focused on mitigation, threat and protecting the group. There are a few things that I think could improve upon it further mostly regarding abilities. I know that being capped at level 15 isn't showing the full arsenal and knowing that more abilities will get unlocked as you level. I am curious as to how many abilities you are planning on each class and the tank specifically having. One 10 button action bar? 2 Action bars? etc. etc. I know that too many can cause ability bloat and not enough can create an issue of too much downtime between abilities. Finding that balance is key and I think having around 10-15 abilities for me is good, with mostly 3-6 being pressed on each combat and the rest for Cool downs and situational encounters.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
- Shield Assault - I feel this move is good for being a small distance gap closer. Applying status effects is good as well and can make you think about different rotations. While I do like this ability I still feel that the original Charge needs to be available for tanks as well since having mobility in the battlefield is a must for a tank to feel they can adequately protect their group.
- Inciting Strikes - This ability is a basic AOE Cone for threat to the tank. Nothing really standout about it I think its OK. I believe that having multiple AOE threat abilities is a must for tank as well. At least 3 different things to grab multiple mobs. Shout / Stomp / Slash / Shield Smash. Understandable that its WIP and could be addressed.
- Tremoring Bellow - Another AOE ability which is good. I enjoying the Visual effects on it and the status effect abilities. Overall a solid ability that I like in the toolkit. Knowing how far this ability works is important since it actually has two abilities baked into it. One is a cone shout and another is a AOE around the caster. I think a lot of players may get that confused and wonder why its not doing what they believe it should.
- Grit - A mitigation buff that has some drawbacks but is very interesting. Each hit consumes a stack of Courage to reduce damage by an additional 15%. Knowing how often you obtain stacks of Courage is important and isn't really explained. (WIP Most likely will need balancing) But also visually on the screen knowing how many stacks you have is important, I wont want to look top left at a tiny box to determine my stacks of something.(WIP Will most likely be able to customize)
- Aegis - This ability is the one I had the most issues with. While I like the entire concept of being able to protect allies. The placement of this dome from a PVE perspective doesn't work. It encourages substandard Tank and group play. Standing on the tank has for many years in MMOs been scorned upon, due to how many mobs in games have cleaves and cones when attacking a Tank. I can understand why it is designed this way and it makes sense visually but as stated for PVE it doesn't work. I can see this ability shinning in PVP which seems to be what it is designed for. You can even see in your demonstration video where one of the players says at 39:00 minutes. "I dont think we want to stand in that because then we just get hit by cleaves." I think a small redesign of the ability allowing the tank to place the Aegis in a 15m radius around him would allow it to be useful and require more skill to use. And would fix the problem of players standing on the tank and getting cleaved.
- Grapple - Interesting ability. Having a ranged engage tech is good. I can see the benefit for PVE. For PVP this will be a go to for all tanks trying to close the distance with ranged characters. Again WIP this will require balancing with the range and CD. We dont want tanks grappling every 5 secs and we dont want them yoinking from 30m away. So I feel the 20s cd and 18 m is a good start. Will like to see how this ability changes with sub classes and other tech.
What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
- For me a Tank character is always Sword and board. I liked what I saw from that game play. Being able to actively block is awesome and what was mentioned to be able to perfect block I'm sure is an engineers nightmare but would be awesome. Overall looking to get my ahnds on Tank gameplay in Alpha 2 to really go more in depth with each ability.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
- My main concern was about the Aegis ability mentioned above. Other then that I am just excited to see the continued growth of the game and company that I believe is trying to make the best game for MMO lovers. Thanks for reading, Have a great day!
Fighter and Tank would perform better in pvp if the classes can strafe and circle opponents. I'm not sure if the issue is the player - sorry Steven, or, if the problem is inherent to the sluggish/slow and static skill Rosters. Whirlwind is a lovely static move and the tanks defensive boon (Grit) slows the tank even further.
Please do a pvp update to show how these 3 close combat classes (Cleric, Fighter and Tank) fare against the non static ranger.
Courage
Courage seems like a good proc resource overall, but obviously more details about abilities from 16-50 will be needed.
The stacks themselves need to not fall off as quickly. They also fall off alltogether.
If Courage is going to grow 1 stack at a time when taking damage, then it needs to fall off one stack at a time when not being used. The way it is being shown now, it looks like it will be impossible to move from pull to pull while maintaining courage stacks.
Also, even without knowledge of how you plan to implement it the rest of the way, I don't think the timer for Courage to fall off should start until out of Combat. While in combat the stack count down should be disabled.
Then the counter to fall off could be 1 stack per second, meaning you have to choose between downtime in fights and keeping a steady and constant chain pull going on.
Tab vs Action
So the combat system has always been stated to be maximum as 25% Tab 75% Action or 75% Action and 25% tab, however it seems like the Hybrid combat has sort of overridden that
Of the six abilities
Shield Assault - Templated Ability [Action] "not predicated on having an actual target"
Inciting Strikes - Forward Cone [Action]
Tremoring Bellow - Forward Cone [Action]
Grit - Self Buff / Mitigation
Aegis - Self Buff / Party Mitigation
Grapple - Requires a Target [Tab]
It looks like we are 3 Action / 1 Tab / 2 Buffs (neither real category)
If this is the new design direction Intrepid is taking with combat, then I think they should inform the community of this. We saw 3 abilities from the Melee Weapon Showcase, 3 from the Ranger, none really showcased from the Cleric, so its hard to get an idea of what direction Intrepid is going.
Aegis
Aegis needs a really big rework. Telling the party to all get behind the tank is something that works in FFXIV's Paladin for 3 specific bosses, but the rest of the time why would you want the tank to take 50% of the damage from 7 party members, when all the ranged party members could just get out of the way.
I think this should either mitigate not transfer a much lower amount of damage, or this should become a radial aura (5-7 meters) that would protect the Melee in the fight and the ranged would just get out of range for the income damage.
I will say however, it may be too early to judge this as we have no idea how mitigation for the tank works. We'll have to wait and see before we pass judgement.
A. Tank video and overall presentation
This feedback is for the re-recording of the tank video. It was much better than the first and more structured. In the future I hope you spend more time in advance practicing and editing the videos for the live streams.
First criticism is the use of GM powers when showcasing the Shield Assault. Steven even said he wouldn't use Shield Assault while holding a 2H sword, but proceeds to do so anyway up until he gets an actual shield. When showcasing the tank using a 2H weapon, please actually showcase the tank using only those skills so we get a feel for the difference between a 2H and shield tank.
B. Spell and ability effects
These are waaaaay too flashy and often obscures the combat 100%. I find the showcased level of effects to be too much. We are NOT playing CSGO with flashbangs. Please stop trying to blind us every 2 seconds, and obscuring the combat and environment. I really, really don't want to see this in the game:
You even add it to the shield assault, which is completely unnecessary. It has a very nice looking semi-transparent force field effect, but then you add a bright yellow flash that ruins it. Why?
1. The nice force field effect starts during the forward rush. but unfortunately you can already see the yellow flash start in the middle:
2. Here we see the full flash, completely obscuring any target and the nice force field effect.
3. Here we see that yellow flash thankfully being gone, leaving us with a nice force field effect. Please just let us see that instead of the yellow flash.
4. And finally we see a nice dissipating force field effect.
Without the yellow flash, this Shield Assault effect would be a 10/10. With it, I give it 4/10.
The character animation and pose is obviously weird here, but I assume that's just because Steven is holding a 2H sword which we aren't meant to be able to shield assault with.
C. Abilities
1. The Shield Assault is overall pretty good I think. Shorter max range than the similar skill in A1, which I think fits tank better, and the synergy of the snare with the tremoring bellow is nice. Solid tank ability. Aside from removing the yellow flash in the ability effect, I think you are close to done with this one.
2. Inciting Strikes seems ok too in terms of what it does. Frontal cone attack with some threat. A decent and basic tank skill. Also very flashy effect, but the bright light is in a smaller weapon trail form that doesn't completely obscure the target and the combat, so much more tolerable. Still. turn it down a notch please. The character animation needs some work when holding a 2H sword, because the character is using it as if they are holding a 1H weapon, which looks really odd. Two-handed weapons need to be held with both hands for most, if not all, abilities. It's more work for the animation team I know, but I think it's worth it. The current animation looks much better with the hammer and shield.
3. Tremoring Bellow looks good in terms of utility and synergy. I am always a fan of a nice stomp'n shout ability. Again with the yellow flash, but the rest of the effects are nice, with a round force field effect and rocks being flung up and out from the ground. Overall thumbs up.
4. Grit looks good on paper, where the tank gets more mitigation at the cost of movement speed and threat generation (lower damage). This is one I will need to play-test to really give feedback on though, but I do like the toggleable nature of it, and that it can be toggled at anytime, ignoring GCD.
We need some better visual cues for Courage I think. What we saw was a buff icon in the group frame top left, and that it stacked to 10 and disappeared very quickly out of combat. A much more centralized way of showing Courage is needed I think. On the ability bar or even on or next to the character itself somehow.
5. Aegis is the first PvP oriented skill we've seen, and I can't wait to test it. It has some use in PvE for removing negative status effects for the tank obviously, but most of the time you never want people in the group standing behind the tank in PvE. I can see the protection cone may be of some use for some boss mechanics, especially in raids with multiple tanks where they can pop the Aegis to lower damage and increase resistance for the healer group, while the main tank makes sure the boss is faced in another direction as much as possible.
It's really for PvP I can see this being very useful in bottleneck fights like doorways and halls, and similar close quarter fighting, where the enemy players go for the squishies first, but the tank actually has a chance to get between them and their target. In open field PvP fights, I see the Aegis have much less utility, other than removing negative effects on the tank.
Visually I would like to see a much clearer picture of how far back the protection cone extends though.
6. Grapple was fun in A1, and it made the tank really dangerous in the siege battles. It's obviously also useful for pulling in ranged mobs to the group. Overall a good skill that I will love using as a tank, and hate playing against in PvP. I am looking forward to seeing the visual effects being added, and if you've changed it up from the chains in A1.
D. Shield animation in general
The animation for characters fighting with a shield looks wrong. Specifically, when swinging the weapon, the character brings the shield 180 degrees away from the target to the back and also up top behind the head. It looks almost comical, but in a bad way. Like seen here:
At no point in the fight should the shield not be at the side or in the front of the character. It can be up or down depending, but never at the back facing away from the attacker. I know some of this comes from the overly exaggerated combat animations, but not all of it. You can still animate the shield being much more forward.
Check out some HEMA videos for guidance. I am not saying I want completely realistic looking combat in Ashes. I am cool with some exaggeration. But I would really like to see shield animations not rendering the shield visually pointless.
Notice how at no point do they bring the shield 180 degrees away from the opponent.
E. Active Shield Blocking
I know some people here don't want active blocking, but I kinda like it. And I like how it's for everyone. It can buy those extra few seconds needed for your team to help you. For more detailed feedback I need to play-test it. I need to experience it myself in the game. One worry is desyncing and such in large scale battles. I hope we get passive block as well for tanks at the very least.
How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?
My experience with tanking is mostly from WoW, and it's because tanking in FFIX, GW2, and NW were a bit too boring or frustrating. The reason tanking in WoW really does it for me is: Control & Engagement.
Tanks are control freaks. We want control of the fight, where the mobs go, what mobs we want, where they are facing, the ability to interrupt/mitigate big damage, and time our personal abilities to take big damage. You're paying attention to what's going on around you and thinking about the next step because you control the pace of the encounter. My main issue with the showcase is the lack of visual indicators or tools for the tank to do their job. Threat indicators on individual mobs, casting indicators of potentially hard-hitting abilities of mobs, buffs/debuffs etc. Hopefully these are all things the team has plans for and it simply isn't ready yet, but as of now tanking in AoC looks more frustrating than New World...and New World was pretty bare-bones and awful.
I'm not an expert on how tanks should work in PvP, so I'll let better people broach that topic. From a PvE perspective I think Aegis sounds great on paper, but isn't an ability that will organically be used in-game unless a lot of encounters are built around it. It reminds me of the Aegis of Aggramar in Halls of Valor in WoW, and it is only used when the boss is essentially doing a pulsing AOE that is unavoidable and the entire party needs to stand behind the shield to live. I don't know that I want that mechanic to have frequent appearances across the entire game.
Any class abilities that require the party to position or interrupt what they're doing to get in position just interrupts the organic flow of the fight, and I think players will find a way to NOT have to do that (running away or using personal mitigation). Party members should already be positioning themselves for the Healer to keep them alive, but adding on a tank ability that requires them to run to the opposite side of a trash pack or boss just feels bad and isn't an engaging ability for anyone in the group other than to have to move. I think something like a Battle Shout or Party-wide Aegis in the form of a buff is better utility and would be used frequently. It would be really important for the tank to use it at the right time for the party's benefit, and doesn't require the party to do anything but be within the tanks radius to receive the buff.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
I would like to see more planning and direction going into the showcases in the future. Your current audience is not the newbie demographic. The 2nd video was much better, but generally speaking the showcases have not been very thorough about giving us raw information about the class. We are MMO nerds just like the GMs. Although it's mildly entertaining to see Steven fumbling around open world and using the skills, it fails to give us nerds the context of the class before we see it in action. Any good MMO player takes the time to read the tooltips and find out the basics of their class before they play, and I think starting a class showcase with 5-10 minutes of doing that will go a long way.
The tank mechanics seem fine for what they are at this stage in the game. You asked for honest feedback though, and that's what I'm going to give you. The game looks terrible right now. I don't know if there's some kind of weird global illumination lighting that's ruining the graphics, or if it's low quality textures, but it just doesn't look good. When you guys show off the models in the livestreams, they look amazing. In game, they look like trash.
Comments
Let's say this Louder. Copy/Paste
care to share how you would design it or improve on it. Not being sarcastic or anything negative here. I am not a tank main, but more info and ideas of what matters with Tank Mains if they are consulted and helped during this process, as you stated. How would it look like.
I thought of how the ranger has a short bow and a longbow and it changes how it plays depending on which it uses which is cool and why not apply that to the tank?
When using the sword and shield it could have all the abilities shown in the video with taunts and threat generation but give tanks an option to have a 2-hander equipped which would also change what those skills do to be more viable in a PvP scenario. Maybe giving the skills more CC, DoT or maybe giving huge defensive buffs to allies near you to make the enemy want to target you.
Just an idea I wanted to throw out there and maybe start talks on ideas of what they could do with this archetype instead of it being the generic tank in every MMO
I like the concept that in design anything that generates threat has an additional ability that would have value in pvp. That way you aren't punished for being a tank with pve talents in pvp and vice versa. Whether it is debuffs, cc, or whatever you pair with it... that would solve a big balance and talent problem you would have tanks face in Ashes "choices matter" environment.
My takeaways (not all related to the Tank showcase):
Mobs:
*They look nice visually
*Some sword mobs have very fast cleave melee swings (Oakenbane and Sargent of the Grove) that I'm not entirely for or against atm. Its very different than most games. On face value melee swings look strange but maybe its something we'll get used to over time. Some of the mobs that used maces had very slow wind ups and attack swings. They could be brought closer together as right now the weapon animations don't look like they belong in the same game.
*I much prefer Lord Oakenbane's softer melee attack audio than the audio soundbyte's our characters have. The boss mob's is more pleasing and less irritating compared to character melee attacks which sound grating.
Tank Role/Function:
*Formations - please scrap this idea for all roles. No interest in this type of game play in a pvp game. I don't want to see it from the tank or for any of the support roles dictating a power trooper dance formation. Please just no.
*I'd rather see a different resource bar such as Stamina for tanks, besides mana shown that was more tempo based.
*Active Blocking - There has been a lot of good feedback provided on this and I agree with most of it. I prefer blocking like Braum has in League of Legends where its a CD ability for a short window strategic use, rather than holding a button down for long periods and strafing around (seems pretty boring) and not as engaging for the player.
*I'd like to see the Tank have a push back ability with their shield where they displace enemies in the direction the tank moves/dashes with the ability in to control the fight.
*Tank needs more hp/better individual defensive mitigation ability that allows them to tank damage without having a pocket healer follow them around. Tanks need a better self-mitigation ability that doesn't counter-act their main role (taking/holding aggro). Having Grit ability counter-act their main function I don't think is necessary. It's a false choice. Allow tanks to have mitigation and tank. Why is it one or the other? That will just artificially cause tanks to be poor at their job. Let's not build in flaws like that into their core skills.
*Harpoon ability - Was this an invisible pull? I didn't see anything actually pulling mobs. Can this be dodged or blocked by another enemy tank to protect their teammate in pvp or will this be a tab-target yeet ability without counter-play?
* The scream and stomp ability needs more range. Its aoe is way too small to be effective in pvp other than to chain cc players after pulling with harpoon or Shield Assault dash. Basically tanks will be a combo cc chain or do nothing atm in pvp. Not the worst place to be but most dislike chain cc, and that seems to be the only thing tanks will offer.
Tank Taunt/Aggro Mgmt:
*Don't make a Tank's job a pain like in NW where getting/taking/holding aggro is a headache and frustrates everyone including the tank. Give the tank ample ways to obtain aggro for single pulls and group pulls, and take it back from group members who momentarily take it.
*The old school mmo everyone wait 10 seconds for the tank to go slap mobs is outdated and should not be a Tanking principle or group mechanic that AoC marries itself too imo. Get rid of the need for all party members to stand around repetitively for the beginning of every fight doing nothing and bored while their tank plays solo rp. Make the tank role/abilities more competent so everyone can play the game at the same time and faster paced. If the bow user or melee dps pulls aggro it shouldn't matter. The tank should be perfectly able to walk over and take the aggro away every time outside of boss fights. Why are we stuck with Healers that use DoT's taking aggro to begin fights in so many MMO's? It isn't interesting, fun, enjoyable etc. Make the tanks good at their job. Don't give them inferior tools so group play is tedious and slow because everyone else has to slow their game play down to the dumbest common denominator, the tanks few taunting/aggro management tools.
Misc Feedback:
*The Party kumbaya sitting/resting mechanic repeatedly slowing down mmo game play feels like a survival game mechanic from Valheim. Please don't make this a thing that is required. We all have limited time to play and even in the demo showcases multiple minutes were wasted for this rp opt-in element. It shouldn't govern or slow down gameplay. Mana should regen very quickly after combat or we need to have consumables we can pop as you don't have time if pounced on by a pvp interaction and again don't waste our time. Learn from New World. They introduced the mmo with a lot of survival elements and over time due to player feedback have removed most of them as they don't have a place in mmo's.
*PVE Raid boss/dungeon boss design - Is there a plan for how they will intertwine with player combat, abilities, and cool downs. It doesn't feel like there is a plan in place yet. Has there been any broader thought put into the overall combat theory the game wants to move forward with. I don't prefer Lost Ark's combat, but player abilities and dashes do jive with how their boss fights are constructed. The game has synergy and it feels cohesive and fun to play due to this as there is a good balance of challenge married to the tools you have at your disposal to clear the content.
*Character size/scaling compared to environment still looks too small at times even when not zoomed out. At 32:35 on the most recent Tank dev vid posted to Youtube, Steven's character is travelling up a sloped path and brush is on both sides. The grass and small bushes look huge in comparison to the player models. Either the brush/foliage needs to go down or the player models need to be scaled up. This isn't even with the smaller races displayed either.
*Visual clutter from ability and attack animations/effects: Nearly all of the abilities and weapon swing trails are very bright and shades of white/yellow or feint blue that's translucent and appears white. It all blends in to be a visually cluttered mess. One thing League of Legends does very well is they design abilities with the specific intent to illustrate what generally the ability does to tell a clear story to players as to what is happening on their screen and they can make sense of it. In AoC when everything is a blur of white effects splashed around the mob its unintelligible and difficult to decipher what is going on.
*I'd change melee effect swings to look more like wind/translucent to show their swing arc and get rid of the clutter of their TRON motorcycle like trails they leave everywhere that are messy.
*The lightning minion attacks were nicely done.
*The character abilities flattening areas of brush are well done.
*Give all character roles the tools they need from the start to enjoy the game. Don't give characters bad tools that make them incompetent and have an unfun experience until they obtain the tools they need to perform their role (1h weapon and shield for a tank). Levelling shouldn't go from early levels = bad experience to later levels = good experience. It should be closer to early levels = fun but not very powerful to later levels = fun and high impact, or something along those lines.
Looking forward to what you have in store for us this year.
8/10. I like the direction, but I do have some issues regarding execution. I hope that more "presence" is given to the Tank role through animations, audio and abilities.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
7/10. Shield assault was good. Although I feel the animation is too fast and choppy. I think it could benefit from having a press, hold and charge mechanic similar to the Ranger's Snipe ability. The longer it is held the more damage dealt and the duration of the shaken/stun condition increases.
8/10. Inciting Strikes Liked it but felt one dimenionsal. I feel like this ability could really benefit from a stacking "Bleed" mechanic that with each strike would apply a "Bleeding Cut" stack. When a certain number of stacks are built a follow-up "Super Strike" ability can be executed.
9/10. Tremoring Bellow Was excellent! Loved the shout, the stomp animation and the impact on the ground/with the foliage. It would be nice if the damage on the ground and across the affected foliage was in the shape of a cone emanating from the player which clearly telegraphed the abilities AOE template.
7/10. Grit Decent, although I feel like the animation could use more definition and I think the slow could be reflected in the movement animation. (The character taking a slightly hunched bulwark stance)
8/10 Aegis Really like the concept of this ability but I think it would really benefit from a telegraphed triangular AOE emanating from the player. Being able to see clearly if you are protected or not by if you are standing in the AOE would offer a much better gameplay experience IMO.
6/10 Grapple Whilst I understand that this ability was missing VFX, I'm not sure If I actually like the concept of this ability. Whilst I absolutely do think that a Tank should have the ability to pull a single target. I feel like a chain or rope/whip/lasso type ability would be better suited to the Fight archetype or even the Rogue or Ranger archetypes.
What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
If I was to be picky I would say that I think the swords are a little too big. Not by much, but they are right at the very edge of looking off to me. Although in saying that I really liked the hammer, which was pretty chunky. The improved VFX of the Sword/Hammer ability on the ground was great. Although a general comment would be that generally less is more when it comes to SFX.
Is there anything, in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
I'm encouraged by what we saw regarding UI. The Quest Journal looks really nice. I do hope that they go through and include, then highlight, pertinent information on abilities in other Menus and Tabs.
Some of these further points have been addressed and I look forward to seeing more on them but a few things.
Tone down VFX on abilities. Less is more.
Improved Nameplates.
Better telegraphing of abilities. (Ground-based templates would be awesome)
Other than that I enjoyed it. Liked what I saw mostly and still see it within the context of Alpha development.
I'm looking forward to tanking again!
As for feedback, the one thing I want to be able to do is use my shield all by itself as mitigation. I just want to make sure I'm able to position myself between the mob and a companion and absorb blows simply by actively blocking with my shield.
Oh, and I'm sorry I missed the kickstarter
Assuming the classes have some arch type: warrior would be melee damage, ranger ranged damage and so on. Combining tank with either of those, would generate a generic damage crowd control. Ranger tank would use more ranged crowd control, like rooting and slowing enemies or such. Likewise, Warrior tank would use melee range control, like damage redirection, pulling one or multiple enemies to it and so on.
I also noticed leash mechanic and that enemies just stand in the area. Maybe enemies/npcs should have reason or agenda. They could be patrolling or defending an area, and thus would prefer to kill the player or drive them out of the area (the leash). However, when returning back from driving the player away, they would keep eye out for the player (after all, they want to make sure the player leaves the area). Thus, the npc should select a new target or meet with it's friend or such logical and not just rubber band back to original position without looking around (like the enemy does in the video).
Any how, it's good, just make it amazing!
Now, i've been waiting for a game for me to tank in again, after Tera it has been absolutely impossible to me to tank in any other MMO, unfortunately I dont think AoC will be it...
I love active blocks and completely despise passive mitigation, and the active block in AoC just doesnt seem satisfying and interactive enough.
Edit: oh and that yellow hammer ability looks dumb af.
I think the updates are rushed and done in an amateur fashion.
And (yes I know it's early alpha but...) the attack animations don't look good.
They look too fast, they make too much light (they're too flashy, too much firework spectacle) and the movement is un-natural-choppy.
I strongly believe you should just postpone such showcases indefinetly until you had high quality content to show and pre-record it.
"How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?"
I think it's a good start... a good base to build on.
"What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?"
I really liked the the Aegis one (the one which allowed you to absorb damage taken by your allies, if said allies rally behind you).
"What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?"
Really disliked the hammer.
It looked goofy, too cartoonish being so big yet held without effort by the character.
If the character holding it were a dwarf or an orc or brutish tulnar, then I would not find it problematic... however, a human holding such a big hammer that way looked silly.
The hammer should have been more real-life-like (smaller) when held by humans or elves.
I would just like to say I really liked the look of the tank especially for it being only at level 15, it kind of reminds me of my time playing a tank back in EQ2. Great job so far.
Looking forward to seeing those additional threat management skills, and maybe counter skills based off the type of damage you active block.
Obviously the threat needs some tuning as well as the TTK and clearer indicators of who has threat but I have confidence that will come with more play testing as you move towards alpha 2.
As far as active blocking goes have you considered not linking it to a mana/stamina cost at all and instead just preventing/reducing mana/stamina recovery while active blocking, or just simply having the effectiveness of its mitigation reduce the longer it is held.
- Holding aggro should be very basic part of being a tank, not very difficult at all. Thats the entire reason the tank exist, to control the mobs.
•What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
- They are alright i guess. I can say one thing about the bubble/shield ability though. In those PVE encounters it makes very little sense to have to stand behind the tank and get the benefit of the shield. That is an ability that work much better when you are holding a chokepoint/bottleneck area or hundreds vs eachother in an open area in PVP and you want to protect the dps and healers behind you from range dps.
•What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
- Im going to be annoying and say the same thing I have said numerous times. The way he holds the shield looks nonchalant and not very heroic. In a limp arm, sideways. BLEH!!
•Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
- I am concerned that the tank will not hold aggro very well, wich imo should be very basic part of the tank role. Not some balancing annoying minigame vs your own teammates.
What I don't like is that the basic attacks have so many light effects and FVX. For short battles it's fine, but I don't want to imagine a massive PvP with so many lights.
I absolutely love it. My primary tanking experience is from playing a Prot Warrior in WoW; it sets the tone for how I want my tank to feel. This comes down to needing a handful of things; mobility, ccs, gap closers, self-mitigation, and party mitigation. On top of having all of that at level 15 on the Tank Archetype, you all even introduced a build and spend mechanic which I literally screamed at my computer when I saw it! Also with active blocking, I see a massive opportunity for some really dynamic gameplay. I know threat generation seemed to be difficult but I almost want it to be after seeing some interplay with the abilities
For example, you’re fighting a mob and it breaks aggro, you rush using your shield assault, reposition yourself to take the cleaves while you raise your shield, and then pop the Shield of Aegis having allies fall back behind you before you take a brief moment to lower the shield to stop and snare the enemy.
The potential this has for immersive gameplay is amazing!
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
I love the kit. One thing that I think would be awesome would be to have an alternative to Grit for PvP called Rage, something that has an opposite effect where you can do an AoE debuff that increases your intimidation to other players, increasing your damage done to them but reducing your mitigation, the longer they ignore the tank in PvP the more deadly they become and potentially increase your speed as well.
Along with all of that, the animations look amazing and I can’t wait to see what grapple looks like when it's done!
What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
In general, I’m not a big fan of greatswords but I really loved the weight that the Warhammer had and the shield gameplay looks great! I’m excited when we can get an axe and shield combo previewed!
Is there anything, in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
My only concern is with threat, but I’m also wondering if maybe threat should be complex or even break during combat to have the immersive and dynamic gameplay I suggested earlier. I love that you have to do calculated slow pulls and that having too many enemies is a TPK. All in all, you guys did an amazing job with the tank and I absolutely loved the live stream. The second recording was nice to have and I mainly liked that one because we got to see a bit more into the party loot rules system.
Keep up the great work everyone!
Also PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE keep the active block, I think adding stamina in as a resource would be a great idea!
I just want to magnify this quote. The people following this game and keeping up with these live streams are your active player base who have a sense of what's going on AND are here for a game with some pretty hardcore PvP rules.
Yes, please drop the newbie Personna - at least until you start doing your marketing leading up to actual Beta and v1.0 launch. OR get Margaret to showcase it and be the newbie. Steven is the guy with the vision that are all here for - and it looks really bad when he's bumbling around like he doesn't know what's going on in his own game.
Floating windows for quests, map, inventory etc not sure what to say other than I thought floating windows went out of fashion many years ago..redundant when compare to fuller screens and simpler switching between menus
A) Great. Improve the existing Tank fantasy with better and more interesting ways to tank, exactly like the Aegis skill does right now.
Q) What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
A) It looks great and seems to be useful in PvP and PvE simultaneously. The only thing i feel like could be improved is the tooltips, when hovering over the skills, give a better breakdown of how much damage it does and what it scales off of. A great example is how League of Legends' tooltips break it down in detail.
It shows:
The type of damage, how much damage is added because of your gear, mana cost, cooldown, and any tips necessary (something the tremoring bellow skill could use since the skill, from the explaination during stream, has a second unexplained by the tooltip element to it. Which would be nice to know!)
They also try to colorcode specific parts of their text to indicate effects/damage types/stacks/references to other abilities if combo'd. Its extremely clear and allows you to build characters without second guessing if the skills even get affected by or do a specific type of damage.
Also, info on the aegis skill like "Damage is diverted to you BEFORE mitigation" is critical to know. Info of the same "informative level" if you will should be added to any tooltip if applicable.
Q) What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
A) Looks okay, i don't know if the regular attacks of the hammer pull you forward automatically, but if yes, please remove. Have the attack pull you forward if you W while attacking, if you're not then don't.
If that's the case already, ignore this feedback
Q) Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
A) Concerned about it being difficult to see where your threat stands during a fight. If the tooltip just says "you gain heavy threat".... how far ahead am i really before teammembers surpass my threat?
A second point is using mana to block instead of stamina. I'd much prefer the dodge roll and block to consume stamina rather than the vital resource to function as a tank. Misjudging the amount of attacks coming in, blocking and be OOM afterwards leaving you stranded seems like a worse alternative than being out of stamina and not being able to block/dodge roll anymore.
Misc:
- Have passive resource regen in combat, excellerated resource regen out of combat, and bonus resource regen when sitting down. Having to sit every time after a engage gets boring fast in my opinion.
- Wording used in tooltips have to be crystal clear as well in my opinion. If it says: "Healing skill: Using this heal skill heals for x and cleanses all statusses" and then there's a second skill that says: "Buff: Your next heal skill used branches out to 3 other allies" its unclear from the get-go that it could potentially apply the effects of the first skill to other allies too. It would be better if: "Buff: All the effects of your next healing skill used branches out to 3 other allies within x meters"
From just reading that you can already assume all effects will be applied to allies too without guesswork, and you will know at what range you have to be. (Might be useful to add a "x meter to target" on a targets healthbar once highlighted)
Keep it up! Great work so far!
The YouTube video was awesome. I don't think holding back on damage to avoid pulling aggro is fun. That being said if threat is a mechanic then there needs to be some indication of high high your threat is otherwise it's just a guessing game.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
- I really like the tank's abilities so far.
- Toggleable abilities like GRIT should indicate if they are active on the action bar.
What are your thoughts regarding the shield shown in the January livestream?
Active Blocking should be more meaningful. It should block 100% of damage but have a cooldown or use a lot of resources so it's reserved for blocking telegraphed high damage attacks. Just holding block isn't fun.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
- The animation of mobs getting hit is great.
- I'd love to see health bars below enemy nameplates. Also to make combat more interesting: Make enemy castbars visible to the players and have interrupting enemy casts be a part of combat.
- Respawn was too fast.
That is an uncalled for criticism against a country clearly passionate and more focused towards multiplayer experiences that involve more than just the typical western style of just throwing players together in usually a co-op manner to experience a story scenerio where PvE difficulty is mainly comprised of trial and error rather than a focus on common sense with the tools at your disposal (and that's pretty much it for the longevity of WoW and FF14's gameplan...).
Korean combat in the past, even though fairly basic in comparison to the constant short skill cooldown rotato system of wow and 14 incorperated both PvE and PvP as a main feature which does not alienate the main purpose of an online experience involving many players. Then BDO came along and showcased some really "bad ass" mechanics involving reactionary and enjoyable gameplay outside of the rotato dps meter style, regardless of making group and role gameplay pretty null in comparison.
You shouldn't blame a person for wanting more interactive gameplay and that is exactly what Ashe's and its skill choices is focusing on and Steven understands this from his mmorpg choice background.
How do you feel about the direction the Tank archetype is taking, based on what we shared during the January Development Update?
- I think the overall direction is going well. Tanks should be focused on mitigation, threat and protecting the group. There are a few things that I think could improve upon it further mostly regarding abilities. I know that being capped at level 15 isn't showing the full arsenal and knowing that more abilities will get unlocked as you level. I am curious as to how many abilities you are planning on each class and the tank specifically having. One 10 button action bar? 2 Action bars? etc. etc. I know that too many can cause ability bloat and not enough can create an issue of too much downtime between abilities. Finding that balance is key and I think having around 10-15 abilities for me is good, with mostly 3-6 being pressed on each combat and the rest for Cool downs and situational encounters.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
- For me a Tank character is always Sword and board. I liked what I saw from that game play. Being able to actively block is awesome and what was mentioned to be able to perfect block I'm sure is an engineers nightmare but would be awesome. Overall looking to get my ahnds on Tank gameplay in Alpha 2 to really go more in depth with each ability.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
- My main concern was about the Aegis ability mentioned above. Other then that I am just excited to see the continued growth of the game and company that I believe is trying to make the best game for MMO lovers. Thanks for reading, Have a great day!
Please do a pvp update to show how these 3 close combat classes (Cleric, Fighter and Tank) fare against the non static ranger.
Courage
Courage seems like a good proc resource overall, but obviously more details about abilities from 16-50 will be needed.
The stacks themselves need to not fall off as quickly. They also fall off alltogether.
If Courage is going to grow 1 stack at a time when taking damage, then it needs to fall off one stack at a time when not being used. The way it is being shown now, it looks like it will be impossible to move from pull to pull while maintaining courage stacks.
Also, even without knowledge of how you plan to implement it the rest of the way, I don't think the timer for Courage to fall off should start until out of Combat. While in combat the stack count down should be disabled.
Then the counter to fall off could be 1 stack per second, meaning you have to choose between downtime in fights and keeping a steady and constant chain pull going on.
Tab vs Action
So the combat system has always been stated to be maximum as 25% Tab 75% Action or 75% Action and 25% tab, however it seems like the Hybrid combat has sort of overridden that
Of the six abilities
Shield Assault - Templated Ability [Action] "not predicated on having an actual target"
Inciting Strikes - Forward Cone [Action]
Tremoring Bellow - Forward Cone [Action]
Grit - Self Buff / Mitigation
Aegis - Self Buff / Party Mitigation
Grapple - Requires a Target [Tab]
It looks like we are 3 Action / 1 Tab / 2 Buffs (neither real category)
If this is the new design direction Intrepid is taking with combat, then I think they should inform the community of this. We saw 3 abilities from the Melee Weapon Showcase, 3 from the Ranger, none really showcased from the Cleric, so its hard to get an idea of what direction Intrepid is going.
Aegis
Aegis needs a really big rework. Telling the party to all get behind the tank is something that works in FFXIV's Paladin for 3 specific bosses, but the rest of the time why would you want the tank to take 50% of the damage from 7 party members, when all the ranged party members could just get out of the way.
I think this should either mitigate not transfer a much lower amount of damage, or this should become a radial aura (5-7 meters) that would protect the Melee in the fight and the ranged would just get out of range for the income damage.
I will say however, it may be too early to judge this as we have no idea how mitigation for the tank works. We'll have to wait and see before we pass judgement.
This feedback is for the re-recording of the tank video. It was much better than the first and more structured. In the future I hope you spend more time in advance practicing and editing the videos for the live streams.
First criticism is the use of GM powers when showcasing the Shield Assault. Steven even said he wouldn't use Shield Assault while holding a 2H sword, but proceeds to do so anyway up until he gets an actual shield. When showcasing the tank using a 2H weapon, please actually showcase the tank using only those skills so we get a feel for the difference between a 2H and shield tank.
B. Spell and ability effects
These are waaaaay too flashy and often obscures the combat 100%. I find the showcased level of effects to be too much. We are NOT playing CSGO with flashbangs. Please stop trying to blind us every 2 seconds, and obscuring the combat and environment. I really, really don't want to see this in the game:
You even add it to the shield assault, which is completely unnecessary. It has a very nice looking semi-transparent force field effect, but then you add a bright yellow flash that ruins it. Why?
1. The nice force field effect starts during the forward rush. but unfortunately you can already see the yellow flash start in the middle:
2. Here we see the full flash, completely obscuring any target and the nice force field effect.
3. Here we see that yellow flash thankfully being gone, leaving us with a nice force field effect. Please just let us see that instead of the yellow flash.
4. And finally we see a nice dissipating force field effect.
Without the yellow flash, this Shield Assault effect would be a 10/10. With it, I give it 4/10.
The character animation and pose is obviously weird here, but I assume that's just because Steven is holding a 2H sword which we aren't meant to be able to shield assault with.
C. Abilities
1. The Shield Assault is overall pretty good I think. Shorter max range than the similar skill in A1, which I think fits tank better, and the synergy of the snare with the tremoring bellow is nice. Solid tank ability. Aside from removing the yellow flash in the ability effect, I think you are close to done with this one.
2. Inciting Strikes seems ok too in terms of what it does. Frontal cone attack with some threat. A decent and basic tank skill. Also very flashy effect, but the bright light is in a smaller weapon trail form that doesn't completely obscure the target and the combat, so much more tolerable. Still. turn it down a notch please. The character animation needs some work when holding a 2H sword, because the character is using it as if they are holding a 1H weapon, which looks really odd. Two-handed weapons need to be held with both hands for most, if not all, abilities. It's more work for the animation team I know, but I think it's worth it. The current animation looks much better with the hammer and shield.
3. Tremoring Bellow looks good in terms of utility and synergy. I am always a fan of a nice stomp'n shout ability. Again with the yellow flash, but the rest of the effects are nice, with a round force field effect and rocks being flung up and out from the ground. Overall thumbs up.
4. Grit looks good on paper, where the tank gets more mitigation at the cost of movement speed and threat generation (lower damage). This is one I will need to play-test to really give feedback on though, but I do like the toggleable nature of it, and that it can be toggled at anytime, ignoring GCD.
We need some better visual cues for Courage I think. What we saw was a buff icon in the group frame top left, and that it stacked to 10 and disappeared very quickly out of combat. A much more centralized way of showing Courage is needed I think. On the ability bar or even on or next to the character itself somehow.
5. Aegis is the first PvP oriented skill we've seen, and I can't wait to test it. It has some use in PvE for removing negative status effects for the tank obviously, but most of the time you never want people in the group standing behind the tank in PvE. I can see the protection cone may be of some use for some boss mechanics, especially in raids with multiple tanks where they can pop the Aegis to lower damage and increase resistance for the healer group, while the main tank makes sure the boss is faced in another direction as much as possible.
It's really for PvP I can see this being very useful in bottleneck fights like doorways and halls, and similar close quarter fighting, where the enemy players go for the squishies first, but the tank actually has a chance to get between them and their target. In open field PvP fights, I see the Aegis have much less utility, other than removing negative effects on the tank.
Visually I would like to see a much clearer picture of how far back the protection cone extends though.
6. Grapple was fun in A1, and it made the tank really dangerous in the siege battles. It's obviously also useful for pulling in ranged mobs to the group. Overall a good skill that I will love using as a tank, and hate playing against in PvP. I am looking forward to seeing the visual effects being added, and if you've changed it up from the chains in A1.
D. Shield animation in general
The animation for characters fighting with a shield looks wrong. Specifically, when swinging the weapon, the character brings the shield 180 degrees away from the target to the back and also up top behind the head. It looks almost comical, but in a bad way. Like seen here:
At no point in the fight should the shield not be at the side or in the front of the character. It can be up or down depending, but never at the back facing away from the attacker. I know some of this comes from the overly exaggerated combat animations, but not all of it. You can still animate the shield being much more forward.
Check out some HEMA videos for guidance. I am not saying I want completely realistic looking combat in Ashes. I am cool with some exaggeration. But I would really like to see shield animations not rendering the shield visually pointless.
Notice how at no point do they bring the shield 180 degrees away from the opponent.
E. Active Shield Blocking
I know some people here don't want active blocking, but I kinda like it. And I like how it's for everyone. It can buy those extra few seconds needed for your team to help you. For more detailed feedback I need to play-test it. I need to experience it myself in the game. One worry is desyncing and such in large scale battles. I hope we get passive block as well for tanks at the very least.
My experience with tanking is mostly from WoW, and it's because tanking in FFIX, GW2, and NW were a bit too boring or frustrating. The reason tanking in WoW really does it for me is: Control & Engagement.
Tanks are control freaks. We want control of the fight, where the mobs go, what mobs we want, where they are facing, the ability to interrupt/mitigate big damage, and time our personal abilities to take big damage. You're paying attention to what's going on around you and thinking about the next step because you control the pace of the encounter. My main issue with the showcase is the lack of visual indicators or tools for the tank to do their job. Threat indicators on individual mobs, casting indicators of potentially hard-hitting abilities of mobs, buffs/debuffs etc. Hopefully these are all things the team has plans for and it simply isn't ready yet, but as of now tanking in AoC looks more frustrating than New World...and New World was pretty bare-bones and awful.
I'm not an expert on how tanks should work in PvP, so I'll let better people broach that topic. From a PvE perspective I think Aegis sounds great on paper, but isn't an ability that will organically be used in-game unless a lot of encounters are built around it. It reminds me of the Aegis of Aggramar in Halls of Valor in WoW, and it is only used when the boss is essentially doing a pulsing AOE that is unavoidable and the entire party needs to stand behind the shield to live. I don't know that I want that mechanic to have frequent appearances across the entire game.
Any class abilities that require the party to position or interrupt what they're doing to get in position just interrupts the organic flow of the fight, and I think players will find a way to NOT have to do that (running away or using personal mitigation). Party members should already be positioning themselves for the Healer to keep them alive, but adding on a tank ability that requires them to run to the opposite side of a trash pack or boss just feels bad and isn't an engaging ability for anyone in the group other than to have to move. I think something like a Battle Shout or Party-wide Aegis in the form of a buff is better utility and would be used frequently. It would be really important for the tank to use it at the right time for the party's benefit, and doesn't require the party to do anything but be within the tanks radius to receive the buff.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
I would like to see more planning and direction going into the showcases in the future. Your current audience is not the newbie demographic. The 2nd video was much better, but generally speaking the showcases have not been very thorough about giving us raw information about the class. We are MMO nerds just like the GMs. Although it's mildly entertaining to see Steven fumbling around open world and using the skills, it fails to give us nerds the context of the class before we see it in action. Any good MMO player takes the time to read the tooltips and find out the basics of their class before they play, and I think starting a class showcase with 5-10 minutes of doing that will go a long way.