Greetings, glorious testers!
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
That's Black Desert on high graphics, but 80% of the people don't play like that they Lower it using game settings.....
So why are you complaining about a DEV Showcase? they need to use max settings as they should..... It's obvious that we will be able to lower it... I really don't understand gamers
I agree with a lot of people that have already mentioned brightness of almost all effects is too much. It often flashes so much that I need to frown a little and its not generally pleasant.
Also the yellow effects coming from the end of weapons when swinging are quite intrusive in the middle of combat. Especially when multiple players are hitting the same target.
I like the idea of active shielding but not if it is just to hold shield up and that's it. One of the dev mentioned something like parry system that is used in Valheim. It would be cool to have option to time block and maybe get some bonus to defense or lessen effects of cc etc. It could be only for active targets so no just random spamming if a lot of mobs/players are attacking the tank and they just accidentally parry a lot of it. Also when you put shield up and down could be delayed based on stats or type of shield/weapon etc.
If every class can active block, it could be tied to con and str stats to determine how effective such parry would be. For example if warrior parries some cc it would throw them off a little (stagger) for brief amount of time, just a little hiccup or interruption, no heavy animation lock. But if tank with shield successfully parry same cc, it would have no effect or slow down.
So every class could parry including in pvp but it would depend on how much str and con you have and also what is used for the parry to determine if you get cc or a little stagger or no effect at all. Tanks could get some skill trees to enhance this and also con could be connected to generating more aggro so it goes hand in hand etc.
Also the boss mobs were attacking too fast. It stands still and suddenly it slashes you with no telegraph to react to, so you can't really use active block effectively. Something like new world's white aura around mobs when they are about to do heavy attack would be cool to react to with active blocking.
I don't like the idea of spamming skills blindly to generate aggro without any feedback. And then suddenly aggro is lost and you chase mobs to try to get aggro again. I remember this being the case in lineage 2 and tanks were basically just spamming aggro plus they needed to have their MP actively recharged so they can continue to spam it... that kinda sucks.
The grit combined with courage is I think really cool as something to actively manage and pop out at the proper time.
I like the idea of skills like aegis but I don't really see it that useful with the current implementation of it.
It is not obvious if players are in the aoe of it, some visual indication that is easy to see for each player and the tank, would be useful a lot. Also the fact that they need to stand behind the tank is kinda meh. Usually tank face other direction than rest of the party so others can attack boss's back. Such skill in theory sounds maybe nice but in practice with a lot of players quite useless I think.
Maybe if skill like current aegis had hard collision with mobs and players in pvp so you actually need to take the tank down before moving on and not just freely walk through it. Like tank in ovewatch I believe has something like this.. Friendly players could walk through it. The more courage you have the stronger this shield would be or last longer.
I don't like that mobs can resist grapple. I am not personally fan of this passive random resist stuff.
Not speaking of the intensity of most of the effects I really like their visuals especially the water / lighting. Also the grass reacting to attacks is pretty cool.
BDO back in the day didn't look like a particle barf fest to that extent. That's more recent, after the major update I guess. As for "considered the best combat" I dunno
You could just put it on a non annoying default, instead of expecting everyone to set it down
-Overall I think its going in a good direction.
Active Block:
I do like active block, as this makes blocking feel more intentional and impactful. I know there are a lot of folks that don't like it, but it feels more realistic to me personally. I believe the mobs/bosses though, need to be designed in a way that make use of the active block fun. Not just holding block the entire time. There needs to be phases in the enemy attacks that allow for fun blocking but then also doing damage and other abilities. Like maybe a series of rapid attacks the enemy does and you block for 3-5 seconds, you then cast an ability or two, then maybe a single big attack that comes and you block it and you begin to figure out that enemies pattern, but you have variation in the mobs/bosses in the world obviously. I think this is somewhat critical if you want to make active blocking fun. Also, introducing damage types for damage mitigation will help active block feel more fun. By this I mean having physical and magical damage types that you mitigate differently. This is explained a bit more below and was a fun variation when I used to tank in Rift.
Threat:
Threat seemed to be a challenge for Steven to manage. It was too much management. Yes you should have to generate threat and maintain aggro, but it should be very quick to get it and easy to hold for the most part. I believe you should only have to re-gain aggro like for a boss mechanic, tank swap, only if you have a threat spike cause you got a level 40 healer in your party and your level 15 or if all your doing is holding active block the entire time you might loose aggro. That kinda of thing. Relatively though, if players are fairly close in level/gear it should not be an issue holding it. Chasing enemies to get aggro all the time is NOT fun.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
Overall Kit:
-Looking at the kit from a high level, I do like the pull or charge in, knock down, grab threat for combat initiation. From there its maintain threat, mitigate incoming damage through active block and the abilities and doing damage when you can. This sorta rotation seems mostly right.
-Voices on abilities, I really want to see options for deep or softer voices in character creation if my abilities are going to have an actual shout or other grunts/sounds.
-Ability animations look great overall, however I do agree they get a bit flashy. I like some flashy though. If we have the ability to tone these up or down though, I'm not worried.
-I would have liked to see some kind of physical damage mitigation and magical damage mitigation. Like on the boss that was firing the lighting strike ability, having a mitigation ability tuned more for magic, and seeing melee attacks using more the active block. I imagine myself in game and a boss takes a big swing at me that I have to active block, but then it goes into a high stakes magical attack that I cast a magical shield for that active block just can't do the job. This puts some variety into how a tank needs to mitigate damage without always using active block.
-Also it would be nice to see some utility type abilities and interrupts. I assume this will come later as development continues.
-I absolutely loved the effect to the grass/environment of the abilities. This is great to see. Very good job here.
Taunt:
-Taunt was missing. This could be because your level 15 and that opens up later but I think this needs to be part of the kit for both ST and AOE. It is a MUST have.
Shield Assault:
-I think this ability is great and I love the idea of using the combo to knock the enemy down. I would like to see the range of the charge larger. IT IS SOOO FUN to charge to your target as a tank from a good distance. Allowing you to be the first to the enemy ahead of your group to grab that initial aggro. Sometimes you want to pull your enemy to a safe spot, but sometimes you want to charge in and a larger distance allows for a more aggressive start to a fight. Especially when your aggressively going from one mob to the next. Super fun for the start of an encounter and I didn't observe this. The pulls were really careful, though I know you were in a high risk area, but I think we need to see this side a bit more. I'd like to see taunting built into these kinds of abilities also. The pull/taunt combo just makes this fun and easy to get started. The animation was what I would expect. Sound was good, though I would like to hear more of a shield whoosh sound when the shield swings out to bash them. The fact that you stop once it impacts the enemy was great. Glad you guys made a point of that.
Inciting Strikes:
This ability was fine to me. Animation looked decent, sound is great. AOE threat generation made sense.
Tremoring Bellow:
Again I like the combo of this with Shield Assault, to knock your target down. This feels like an ability that should be like an AOE taunt included in it. The Inciting strikes helps to keep threat up on mobs, but this ability should be for ensuring you have aggro by taunting. Maybe there are plans for another ability to do this, since it already knocks your target down. Not sure, but just feels like that this is that kind of ability.
Grit:
I like this ability. What are my "oh crap" abilities when things get rough is one of the groupings of abilities I think about as a tank. This fits that category since you can use it any time and allows for that quick damage mitigation when you really need it. I would like to see however, a split with damage types here instead of just all damage in general. For example, Grit would give you physical damage mitigation and might allow you to use other abilities so you don't have to solely rely on active block. You would still be venerable to magical damage type attacks.
-Courage stacks is a unique resource to manage and I like this as well.
Aegis:
This again is another "oh crap" ability when the group needs it. I like the idea that with this my group needs to get behind me while I protect them. The issue I see with using this one, is making sure your group positions themselves behind it. This for some groups might be challenging as players tend to just do what they want but it is what it is and they just need to work as a team here. Also an issue is see, is generally tanking requires the tank position enemies so it is NOT facing the group. This is what everyone likely expects given most tank classes in other MMO's. Maybe a bubble would be more effective? I'm curious what situations are implemented that make use of this ability.
I do want to see an ability like this shield used for magical type attacks that functionally is similar to grit, but shields you from magical type damage. Allowing for more fun tank gameplay.
Edit: the more I think about it, this ability seems like it would better suited as the magical damage mitigation ability. The VFX for this one is perfect for that and the ability could be changed to do so.
The currently ability would better as an AOE with maybe tethers showing that damage is going from each player to the tank.
Fighter:
Just something that really stands out to me for the fighter class, is that the hammer ability (I forget what its called), the one that appears in the air and from a distance slams down, feels just way off for this class to me. I don't know why, but personally I think it needs something be something different.
What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
-I think the art is amazing in general, however I do agree with others who have stated that there should be more of a stylized art to give the game a unique overall feel for its aesthetic.
-The set looked really nice and clean
-Being a low level set it was great, I expect to see more complex designs and a bit more on the exotic side as you get higher level however.
-I definitely think the shield should be bigger for a tower shield. I want the shield to cover 90-95% of my body and all you can see is my head from the front. PLEASE give me BIG shields!!!! On par with the Nova class in BDO.
-I liked the hammer, looked great
-The sword art is great also, but I do think the holding animation could have a bit more flare to it. It looks to straight up and stiff. Maybe if the handle of the weapon was held a bit more to the center of the chest and the sword angle lowered a bit an even tilted slightly to the back of the player, it might have that more centered comfortable look to it. Hard to describe it, but needs to be more relaxing looking. For each weapon type actually it would be good to see more flare.
-Impacts seemed to look a lot better and cleaner in combat
-
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
-I'm excited to get in the game lol. I am really looking forward to the release and want to play this. My hope is that in time its really good and it becomes my main game and finally I find my MMO home if you will.
-From what I can see, it all looks pretty good. There are of course some concerns here and there, but not game breaking concerns. Its mostly refining and making sure the gameplay is fun and not tedious and that combat is something you guys focus on to make great. Its probably the main pillar that has to be done great. I still remain confident that Intrepid will come through for us. It may not be perfect, not even at launch but I feel good about the project as a whole.
1. Watch asmons recent take on the update
2. Looking into the game “Smite”
Why:
1. Because Asmon had a few recommendations that I and several on this form had and thought the same.
2. A lot of the things “Smite” has from combat would work and fit in the game.
Examples:
1. The aggro mechanic. Tanks should just easily hold aggro. Not struggling to hold it and lose it. Most people don’t play tank because aggro mechanic sucks. New world, wow, ESO etc… - Asmon summarized comment
2. Having blocking being similar to valhiem - Asmon summarized comment
3. The visuals and animations. It’s hard to see who is doing what move etc. But a game that did it well is smite.
4. Action and fighting and weapon speed. Some attacks are way too fast for the weapon. Smite attack speed of the characters are done very fluidly.
5. That content was way to easy for 4 man raid. To fast and easy.
6. I did like how Steven showed every ability first and a few different scenarios( little mobs, hard multiple mobs, bosses)
Summary:
- Tank should be a character that as CC and is a beefy boy.
- DPS: Should be mobility and damage.
- Support: Provide buffs, heals and CCs
As was already discussed the trinity. I think the ability and animations “smite” has done and separating that trinity was done very well.
So I think instead of reinventing the wheel ashes should leverage some of those ability’s from smite and improve on them.
But that’s just my opinion. Either way the direct and how the game is professing is amazing. From how alpha 1 was to now it’s incredible and I can’t wait to play!
The auto attacks with the 1h mace don't feel impactful to me, the 2h from the fighter did though.
The abilities were good, however with Aegis having the DPS stand behind you (in front of the boss) is a no-go in MMOs, couldn't the group just benefit more from going behind the boss instead which renders Aegis useless?
Finally, I think the combat sound effects are a bit repetitive and don't sound great - would like some more fleshy sounds to make it feel more impactful.
havent seen asmon take but I would also take his word with a grain of salt. He's view of MMO differs greatly from Steven vision. For me, he has a shit ton of shit takes about MMO and their designs.
Now SMITE ---- yes!
There is a lot of good reference points AoC can do with PVP/Action combat that they can borrow from Smite and CC related abilities, their strength and timers on them.
The word Aegis in AoC already trips me out
Smite combat animations are great too.
Thank you
There’s too few abilities to have a proper answer. That’s the problem with showing so little and in such a way. I feel like a lot of the potential a tank has in terms of tanking, aggro generation, CC & damage mitigation can’t be shown with so few abilities.
I think the damage dealt is lacking a little, even for early games where the player only has access to its initial Archetype and low quality gears. A tank will be a lot less efficient than other classes if he wants to farm mobs.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
Shield assault : The ability is perfectly fine.
Inciting Strike : The ability should be a bit slower but deal more damages.
Tremoring bellow : Maybe adding a mechanic where the mobs get more damage or a longer CC duration/different CC the closer to the player they are and these effects are reduced the farther they are from the center of the aoe.
Grit : It has a lot of potential if used at the right timing. I like it a lot, I'm curious to see how impactful it can become with augments.
Aegis : It seems nice on paper, but I think it will be very situational for it to be really effective, regarding PvE in general. Usually a tank makes sure the mob face him and dps are behind the mob, since often his attacks are a cleave in front of it. Why would you share dmg amongst the group when the tank can be the only one getting damaged, just by moving a few meters rotating the mob in a direction where it cannot hit your teammates.
When the said mob casts an aoe around him (or even regular attacks ?), then it’s not even up to the tank anymore either players roll to dodge it; or they facetank it, but if the tank & healers are doing a good job I don’t think this would pose any threat and be healed back in no time. Especially when you realize that positioning is really the base in MMOs and it can prevent a lot of failures.
It looks like a very niche ability to have for very rare situations, at least looking at the actual showcase we had. Maybe the “mages specters” that casted some sort of chain lightning could justify its use. Its full potential might be “unlocked” with augments, need to wait & see.
When you think about it, It seems even harder to make a proper use of it in pvp, maybe in a large scale battle, where all of the group members gets hits by aoe all the time, but why would you gather all your teammates into one place, it’ll just ease the opponent's work to kill you & your team, the shared damages will make the tank melt in seconds.
Grapple : This ability’s animation feels weird and slow. Sometimes there is a delay between the moment the player pulls the mob with his arm, and the moment the mob is actually pulled. It should have a faster and different animation. Also it would be nice if it had particles, or anything noticeable for PvP. Other than that the ability is good.
What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
The Mace is too big.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
I think that the idea of comboing CCs to get a hard CC is very good and should be developed further. This’ll also make teamplay a lot deeper than your average MMO.
My concerns are that almost all the animations for all classes are a bit too fast (including the mobs), except some that feel weird & slow like the tank’s Grapple. I think that they should be slowed down. In my eyes a fast Atk.speed should be the result of both gear progression with bonus stats, and also level progression with active & passive abilities that buffs it.
If it’s planned to increase atk.speed in later levels, with the actual atk.speed shown in the stream I wonder how it’ll look in game, but pretty sure it will be weird to see a tank or a fighter swinging a huge 2H sword at supersonic speeds.
So far (maybe I’m wrong) it seems that the abilities' animations have the same duration whatever the weapon the player has equipped. I hope it’ll change during the game’s development as it is obvious a 2H sword would hit harder but slower than a regular sword.
I know that it’s level 15 and everything is a work in progress, but if the player has the possibility to get far more abilities (15 or more depending on the player’s choice in the shortcuts bar) as stated by steven in October’s stream. This raises a question, aren’t the abilities' cooldowns too short ? This will lower the player’s interest to use the basic attack combo since you might have abilities usable all the time, even with the effects it can procs from the weapon skill tree.
In the tank preview video I haven’t seen any weaving between abilities, since it seems there isn’t any rewards for doing so, it’s just chain all abilities then use the basic attack combo when the abilities are in CD. To make the player feel like the gameplay is dynamic and rewarding, maybe give mana back when using basic attack combo and implement the effects it should procs in each “part” of the combo in combination with abilities, I know it’s part of the of the weapon skill tree and should come later, but even placeholder effects would have done a good enough job.
Please don’t feel limited by the thought starters above. Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s Tank archetype shown during the January Development Update
The encounters they had were too easy; if it was designed for an 8 man group, the same group composition with experienced players would have blasted through this elite zone.
The aggro reset from mobs is too short when players flee from them. A bad pull needs to be punished, especially in such “elite” zones.
In this tank preview, the tank had trouble holding the aggro, is it because of the player or the abilities shown in the video ? It wouldn’t hurt that the tank is given a taunt ability, a mono target one, or even an AOE. I know it’s work in progress but as I've seen it, a tank isn’t needed at all, put a fighter, a healer and dps and you’re good to clear all content.
I think it will be done later in the developpement, but regarding the Combat UI, when you tab target a mob (in fight), players should be able to see which players the mob is targeting, the range at which the mob targeted is from the player’s perspective. Be able to mark monsters with numbers & icons over their head for other players to follow a proper focus and it will prevent chaos.
I feel like the rolls should have a way longer Cooldown, especially if it gives the possibility to dodge with an I-frame (does it ?)
The active blocking should be revamped, especially for a tank, it’s nice to have when you want to temporize, but losing aggro makes it useless when you use it. In a PvE situation for it to be effective it would require to use it only for a short duration each time the mob hits, but if you have multiple aggro from mobs then it’s just impossible to do it.
And for both PvE & PvP, why would you even hold the parry/block when you have such low cooldowns on abilities, the player will lose less hp if the target dies faster.
That’s why I think some sort of shield stance that gives limitations and drawbacks to the tank would be far better in terms of gameplay for both PvE & PvP. For example the tank can still Basic attack combo with a reduced atk.speed, cannot use other abilities, is slowed down and gets some form of CC and damages resistances for a very short duration.
It should also use the tank’s courage to make sure the gameplay revolves around it. This way the tank gameplay feels more rewarding by being active than using the blocking/parrying endlessly.
The basic attack combo would be far better if it had some variation in its animation. Since I'm pretty sure we’ll use it a lot.
The abilities' animations should sometimes be varying depending on the weapon type the player is using for the same abilities, it would look better this way.
Also, maybe it would make the combat feel smoother, making the abilities' animations blend together by allowing the player to do another action not after the ability’s animation finishes entirely, but when 90% of the motion is done already. Instead of having ability > “idle pose” > ability.
The idle monsters from the elite zone (those without random movements) when rendered in Steven's PoV are all facing in the same direction and almost all the time looking away from the group. It feels weird having all of them turning their back on the group when they see them in the distance.
Currently, all 4 archetypes shown: fighter, ranger, cleric and tank spend the SAME resource when using their abilities: a mere mana bar. That way the gameplay may becomes somehow lazy. For example: a new player, who just started playing and a very expert cleric players, will have the same difficultys when managing the best way to use their resources: NONE!!! This means players who dedicate themselves to play only one class will not be rewarded for doing so.
Furthermore , having different and unique resources for each of the 8 archetypes would make the gameplay of each of them UNIQUE and SPECIAL. The game would become 100x more interesting if each class had its own resource, instead of all of them using the “mana”. In this discussion I would like to exemplify different types of features (some well known and some new) that will surely be better elaborated and discussed by the experienced members of Intrepid Studios.
Fighter: The fighter archetype could have a resource called “RAGE”. This rage bar is reset when out of combat. Each time the fighter lands an attack with his equipped weapon, he generates a certain amount of fury (up to a maximum to be defined). Each skill consumes part of this resource. If a skill requires more rage points than the amount currently available, it cannot be used. The amount of points allocated to a skill and the different augments available can decrease how much "rage" a skill spends to or even cause a skill to generate rage instead of consuming it.
Ranger: Unlike the Fighter archetype, the ranger's resource (an "ENERGY" bar) fills up when this class leaves combat and recovers slowly every second. All ranger skills consume energy when used. Again, unlike Fighter, attacks with an equipped weapon neither consume nor generate energy. If the ranger's energy is less than the amount needed to use a skill, that skill can still be used, but with reduced damage.
This was a brief example that serves to show how the gameplay of each archetype can become UNIQUE when the resource used is different. If you want to continue reading, here are some more ideas:
Cleric: Instead of using mana, like in other games, Cleric could use a resource called "Faith Points", which would be displayed as small golden circles under the health bar. Let's say a cleric has 12 faith points. Healing/buffing skills that benefit a single target would spend less points than skills that benefit all party members. Also, damage skills DO NOT spend faith points. This is because faith points are recovered when the Cleric DEALS or even TAKES damage. This is cool because, if a player decides not to have any damage skills, he will still recover his faith points when attacking with his equipped weapon or taking some damage.
Tank: The resource used by Tank, “VITALITY”, could work almost the same way as mana. All skills consume vitality and each attack he defends also consumes a certain amount of vitality. The difference is that when the Vitality bar reaches 0, it starts to recover faster than normal until it fills to the maximum. During this recovery time the tank CANNOT use any skills and NEITHER defend. That vitality bar recovery time can maybe last between 5-10 seconds (which is a long time), making this resource something REALLY important and that should be taken into account.
Bard: (on this one I mighty have gonne a bit too far). There are 7 musical notes. The idea that came to my mind would be to have these 7 musical notes as the resource used by the bards. When the Bard uses a skill, it spends a certain amount of resource, but also recovers a certain amount. Example: At lv 15 a bard could have 6 points for each musical note: DO - RE - MI - FA - SOL - A - SI. When using a skill, he spends like 2 points of DO, 1 point of MI note and, at the same time, recovers 2 points of SOL note. It would be a “give and take” gameplay, where each skill spends and also generates resources. (I know it would be VERY difficult to do because of balancing. But, there must be a way to make bard gameplay unique and fun).
Mage: To be honest, for mages to use mana is quite ok!!! I believe this is the best resource for this archetype. If all, or almost all other archetypes use different resources, having a mana bar would be what makes the mage a unique archetype.
Summoner: To Summoners i thought of something similar to Pokémon games, those where each Pokémon's ability could be used a limited number of times until it was recovered at a pokemon center. What's the idea here: Summoner skills can only be used a certain amount of times per day (in-game day). Besides having to think before using an ability, because of the daily cap, this would also make players have to be aware of the in-game time to decide whether they can "go all-out" or "keep calm and belive in your party members".
Rogue: “BLOOD” feature. I didn't think much about this archetype, but it would be nice if Rogue had a mechanic of spending its resources to inflict certain conditions, like bleeding, blinding or some sort of stun.
If you've read this far, congratulations!!! I can't even believe I wrote so much. Summing up all the text written above: EACH ONE OF THE 8 PRIMARY ARCHETYPES CAN BE DIFFERENT, UNIQUE AND SPECIAL IF THE RESOURCE SPENT BY IT IS ALSO DIFFERENT AND UNIQUE. THANKS !!!
Personaly it looks great but i need to feel it by my self and if you ask me there is no point in showing this kind of gameplay. Skill showcase myb kill one or two mobs is fine. Alpha 2 when ?
I'm not going to pass any significant judgment on the Tank cause it was a low lvl showing and so much can change in 35 lvls and an added sub-class. But from what I have seen and understood that it is Pre-A2 footage, it is looking pretty good, with some work to go. I like the direction some of the spells are going, they are great ideas.
What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
I go into much more detail on my YT, Not sure if I can but I will post the link at the bottom of this post. Here I will just 2, one is minor and the other is significant.
Grit is pretty good, but 20% Damage? that's a nice chunk of damage you miss out on, 10% is about where I think it should be.
But Aegis needs a revamp, it has been said in this thread a few times. But again it goes against Tanking and normal trinity behavior. It's common for a tank to grab hate/threat and then turn the enemy away from your party so they don't get hit. Aegis requires that they then step in front of the boss...where they will definitely get hit. And is potentially a TON of damage}
"Should turn this into an Aura or shields. And give them a damage reduction, drop the damage-sharing aspect altogether and create another spell called guard or protection that lets you pick a teammate you want to take damage for. that fits better and makes more sense.
those are the most pressing issues to me, everything else can work itself out in A2
This is my breakdown of the Tank, and it covers every skill/spell in detail
Your mixing grit and Aegis, Grit is a damage reduction doesn't remove debuffs
Overall, for where development is, I'm really happy with the progress and direction. I really appreciate many things about the abilities, animations, and robust world that has been created.
I read through a bunch of other comments and agree that there are definitely some things that need a bit more iteration, but given how much is left to be done in this process, I don't feel the need to say more at this time - that others haven't already said.
Lastly, and most importantly - the only "major" issue of note I have is in the naming convention.
"Tank" is not a class, its a gamer-speak role designation. Game makers don't call Mages "Fire DPS" - they call them Mages.
I would really like to see the "Tank" class renamed with a proper fantasy role-play themed name: Knight, Guard, Warrior, Guardian, Protector, Shield Bearer, Warden - anything.
Tank is a role, not Class name. For me its emersion breaking, and inconsistent with the other naming conventions.
Other than that - keep doing it! Everything is looking great! Already looking forward to the February live stream.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP31ixSBO7GHKLBefWVcJaA
It looks really bare bones and there seems to be more work ahead than behind. The abilities seem "fine" but there is definitely not enough threat generation from the tank to hold aggro. It seemed like almost every fight, GMSteven did not have aggro on the enemies for the majority of the fight. In most MMOs when there is a tank, the tank generates threat with taunt abilities and auras to keep enemies focused on him/her. I did not see any such ability taking place, or at least I did not see it working very well. Tanks should also have some combination of high health, defense, and resistances. GMSteven's health and mana seemed very comparable to everyone else, which is also not good. If the tank is going to have an ability that mitigates damage away from teammates and draws it to themselves, the tank should be able to reasonably soak that damage. To conclude, the tank doesn't do enough traditional tank things. The tank doesn't have enough health, defense, or damage mitigation nor does the tank have enough threat generation to successfully gain and maintain aggro.
2.) What are your thoughts regarding the Tank abilities shown in the January livestream?
The combo potential with abilities seemed interesting. The shield bash skill into the stomping skill seemed good. The blue shield ability should probably be wider and less rounded to allow greater protection to allies who will be constantly moving while fighting. The tank should also possess abilities to restore their own health, generate additional threat on enemies, and or raise their resistances. Crowd control like stuns is also a must for tanks to ensure longevity of the tank and to potentially save allies from large wind-up style attacks. Tanks should serve the role of locking down targets and forcing them to focus on the tank.
3.) What are your thoughts regarding the Warhammer & shield, and 2H sword shown in the January livestream?
The shield floating off the arm is a bit strange. Seeing the straps on the inside of the shield but not over the arm is a bit odd and should be fixed so that when a shield is in use, the straps go over the arm and the hand is gripping the handle. The hammer looked fine. I would recommend for all weapons to be stowed when a player is idle. It was rather strange to me that the weapons were always "at the ready" with the players in the livestream. There should be a button to switch between idle and active with regards to weapons. It would also be nice to see unique skills tied to specific weapons.
4.) Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Tank updates?
I am more concerned than excited with the tank updates to be honest. I mainly play tanks or melee damage in most games. From what was showcased, it seems like the tank would not be a good class at all if released as is. To sum up everything that I said in previous questions to a concise statement I would say this: Tanks need more health, more resistance, more threat generation, and more skills that let them control the battlefield to focus attention on the tank and allow the tank to lockdown enemies.
Active blocking: Very passive for what is a very engaged role. Its also too basic.
Perhaps activating the skill blocks the next attack? Just holding down a button is .. lazy.
Wheres the trade off besides being slowed? I like Skyrim's version where each hit consumes Stamina.
Attack Speeds: All around too fast. These speeds feel unnatural and wrong, especially with the weapons shown. @Blindside recommended running the YT video at .75 speed and it looks much better!
Weapon Weight: That nearly cartoonish hammer swinging around like a switch set off all kinds of alarm bells. Its unnatural WITHIN the game world. This was a human swinging it, not an ogre.
LORD HAVE MER-SAY AND UNICORN FARTS: Special effects, as last year, are way over the top! Ringing like overdone Asian MMO. When all the characters are blocked out by sparkles, there is something wrong.
Its best combat not becouse how skill looks, but because you can use key combinations for using most skills. for me the best control of an mmorpg game ever. What the game is like in general is another story
The progression is looking great. For me, in general I think convenience wins. Remember how WoW threw away a lot of traditions (such as big death penalty) to make the game more accessible/convenient? (And also how they eventually went too far on this end and made some raids extremely easy, hah. All extremes are bad.)
With that in mind, my feedback:
1. The art for VFX is good, but the intensity feels like too much. Especially in a dark room, the flashing is just too much, and often you can't see what's happening. With more people in the raid, it will be too much. Potential idea: reduce brightness / particles near point of contact. Ex: 8 mages casting a lightning bolt on a target, the bolt will look strong/bright near the mage (so feels powerful), but less so near the target, so the destination space isn't as cluttered/crazy. Could be a terrible idea, just passing it on.
2. Impossible to say if active tanking is good or bad without playing. Does it mean tanks can't use 2H weapons? I know many tanks love to use 2H. If you stick with the idea (have to raise shield to tank), then I'd look to New World as far as shield mechanics, for ex: bigger shields should feel heavier both with (slightly) slower animation and (more so) reduced movement speed.
3. Grit needs clear on/off indicator on the toolbar.
4. Please add target of target.
5. [Main feedback point] I think threat management is generally a frustrating experience. The most fun part about it is taunting, and I didn't see a taunt in this video. You can use same abilities you have now, just add taunts to them. Shield bash would taunt enemies in line, ground smash - in cone, etc. I'd redo tank archetype to be entirely taunt-based, where abilities are either single-target or aoe taunts. If an add jumps on a non-tank, the tank just needs to use a single taunt ability to grab their attention. This is a far more convenient mechanic than worrying about damage outputs. Properly timing your AOE taunts vs single-target taunts becomes the mini-game and since that is 100% within tank's control, it is a far less frustrating experience than what you've shown us. You can then have taunts expire after X seconds, have bosses or elites reset aggro at certain phase(s), etc. to keep the tank on their toes. But please, please for the love of all that is unholy make tanking 100% within control of the tank so that [smart and amazing] raid members don't constantly [bless] the rest of the raid with their impatient pulls, show-off damage bursts, etc. Imagine how much more satisfying and empowering it is to be a tank that's in complete control of the battlefield vs. running around and undoing mistakes of your damage dealers.
6. Add aggro indicator. Someone in the video mentioned Valheim's parry mechanic; well, their simple yellow/red aggro indicator is good, too! Except I'd make it 360-degree so you see a yellow exclamation point at bottom edge of your screen if a creep behind you is about to aggro (or right or left edge of the screen when creeps are off-screen in those directions).
7. The grass lowering with ground smash, etc. is cool. The next step is to burn/damage the grass on spells that are meant to destroy environment, like fireballs, etc. I'd keep the damage around for awhile, like a few minutes open world areas, and for instances - until instance resets. It's cool to see the destruction behind you, makes it feel more real.
8. Boss areas could feel more unique. All MMOs/games will use U5 or similar engine soon. To stand out, make each boss environment memorable. For example, the final boss in the crypt with the tree growing above the crypt? That was good. But the one before, where he just stood on some stone area - ehh... it's just stones in the middle of a grass field. So while the art is phenomenal, art direction / styling could be stronger/have more contrast to really make the game stand out and create memorable locations/settings.
9. Some of the boss' attacks didn't have a clear windup. If we're going with active shielding, each attack's windup animation should be clear.
10. Aegis is cool, but as others mentioned, there are clipping / clarity issues. The aegis should respond to being hit, too, so it's clear which attack hits it and which doesn't.
11. Mana on a tank... for me, this only creates inconvenience and takes away from immersion. When I think of a tank, I think rage, not mana. And rage accumulates, not decreases. So some abilities can generate rage while others consume it. This feels a lot more natural than mana, unless you are playing a paladin.
12. Mana on mages - I'd just increase the rate of mana gain when sitting down. Sitting down for 10-15 seconds after every few mobs isn't fun. I think tuning for fun is the priority.
13. Consider adding another aggro indicator when enemy goes on your teammate. Basically "teammate is in trouble" indicator. People will still yell in chat that something's on them, but for those of us who are mute, this would make the life of being a mage easier.
14. Tank damage seemed low, should be 60-70% of a damage-dealing class imho.
Thank you so much! The progress is looking great. This is my first post, super excited to follow along and get to play the game in 2035.
With love,
But, i havn't tried it, I dont know how it feels, only how it looks in its current state and in my eyes tanking looks really boring so far
The huge two handed sword was held in a what I consider a rather awkward position. The way the hammer looked was really satisfying to me. There was that sense of density and weight to it, with the thin handle and material choice. All of the armour sets look amazing to be honest. Hoping there's a lot of them.
Perhaps it would be nice if the enemy NPCs would start looking towards you if you were getting closer to their aggro range. This being a bit too much to ask, perhaps their name plates pop up when they are close to their aggro range. Point being, an indicator would be nice. Going further, I would absolutely be stoked if their aggro range was increased in front of them and reduced behind them. Then again, not something to be expected, but I'm a dreamer, I can't help it.
Not sure if this was the case, but roaming mobs and patrolls could add complexity to these kinds of areas.
I hope respawns wont be an issue. It's such a hassle when they respawn out of thin air. I don't think mobs should be able to respawn close to players. Despite this being a slight disadvantage to more populated areas. It should only cause the last tick of the respawn timer to not tick. Meaning mobs only respawn in your peripheral.
Seeming a lot of people find the aggro management sorta lackluster, a single targeted ranged hard taunt might be a good ability to add in the tanks skill kit. Or an AoE taunt around the tank more suited for interuption. Both being an interpretation of a verbal taunt, being a general or a more individually aimed insult.
I usually don't play a tank, because of what I conceive as a limited skillset, but I think this seems good. I also think the aggro management should be tricky. I know people are complaining about it, because they have bad teamwork within their groups, but I think that's one of the major points with aggro. That if you're going to specialize you better trust each other and work together. That means loosely built groups will have issues. That's good. It adds a complexity that boss mechanics and stat sticks can never replace.
I think the difficulty seemed fine, don't think its an 8 man area. Breezing through content sucks! What has kept me from playing MMOs for so long, is their extreme simplicity. I don't want to buldoze areas filled with enemies. I DO NOT mind you guys dying in the showcase. Or cheating for that matter (as long as it's communicated).
Sometimes I find the stuttery enemy movement is a bit of an eye sore. It seems to happen when they are further away from the group or during the pull.
If possible I'd like the cracks in the ground disappearing a in a more fluid way. Perhaps from the edges inwards or simply by slowly fading. In a sense it could be used to track groups of players in dungeons. Would be nice if they lasted for a long period of time, making tracking for PvP and information gathering based on marks on the ground possible.
Again, over all I love the stuff you're showing us. Take your time - I'm here for the ride.