I pretty much accepted that Intrepid, or any actual developing company, can NOT pull a significant PvP game that empowers people, even the PvE runners should.
So, because of that I am from now on pretty much accepting an Everest of band-aids, this is better than Intrepid taking the risk of doing something good, because they would fail for sure.
In AoC there will be barely any teleporting to long distances, this was people's main escape plan among many games.. then it comes flagging... comes corruption... than many other band-aids. At the same time, there is religions in the game, but you can't do offerings to this or that deity in exchange for teleports or any kind of protection. So, early on Intrepid shot it's own foot from the beginning. The gods in AoC will be boring gods
From now on, I guess it is safer having band-aids over band-aids, because they couldn't come up with systems that let people escape gankers and other situations
being able to teleport to safety when you are going to die in PVP is unfun and not engaging!!!
I think the CC immunity for greens is just a band-aid for a much broader issue with the Corruption System. The only reason I see for this existing is to prevent players from CCing greens to get them killed while they're actively fighting PVE mobs, avoiding corruption, but there are better solutions to this problem. I see this "solution" causing more problems than the one it's supposed to be fixing. There are several situations where it doesn't make sense, some of which have been mentioned.
This benefits certain class types/builds more than others and caters to Farmers and Pvers (Carebears). Classes that rely on CC as a core component of their kit such as tanks or fighter types, will now be worthless against greens. A player training mobs onto you, to bypass corruption, cannot be stopped. Corrupt players that rely on CC won't be able to do anything against greens. DPS roles will benefit since they rely on high damage abilities and will be mostly unaffected compared to others. And probably the biggest issue I can see with the change, farmers transporting goods can now spec solely into movement skills, speed buffs and defensives and will be literally unstoppable. What's to stop any green player from simply running away whenever they get attacked now? They can't be CCed. All they have to do now is be faster than those attacking them.
There should always be risk involved as that is one of the core philosophies of this game, but this gives a huge advantage to greens/passive type players. The main deterrent from flagging on greens is supposed to be the Corruption System, which already heavily penalizes players in SO MANY ways for going corrupt. This is excessive. How about instead of expecting the game to shelter you from the big bad PvPers, you have a little self responsibility? Self awareness, situational awareness, don't go out by yourself into contested areas and expect to be safe from PvP throughout the whole game. Enough hand holding, this is supposed to be a PvX game. Stop catering to Carebears that want to run around the world by themselves picking flowers all day in a safety bubble.
And probably the biggest issue I can see with the change, farmers transporting goods can now spec solely into movement skills, speed buffs and defensives and will be literally unstoppable. What's to stop any green player from simply running away whenever they get attacked now? They can't be CCed.
We still have no clue about the drop amounts, so PKing a single player purely for loot might be completely pointless. And mules will most likely be really slow, and they give less corruption right now, so if you're a PKer who's looking for some loot - go kill an ass.
For most other applications of PKing - the system is doing its job. You want to take someone's farming spot but they're not flagging up? PK them and start grinding off your corruption right away. Some rando green is trying to mess up your boss farm w/o flagging up? PK them and hope that wasn't a trap or that the trap is slow enough for you to finish the boss. But if you just want to kill someone for no reason at all - fuck you and you deserve the penalty and being hunted by greens and BHs.
Going red is supposed to be the last resort and only in cases where its value is higher than any potential loss. And I'd imagine that these situations would be reaaaally rare.
The only reason I see for this existing is to prevent players from CCing greens to get them killed while they're actively fighting PVE mobs, avoiding corruption
That's the reason that's been given. I agree with that reasoning. I wouldn't want to see a meta develop where that kind of thing is happening all the time, where it's just what you do, log in and CC some people while they're fighting mobs. I don't want to see that.
But I'm not sure that blanket green CC immunity is the answer either. One thing that I think gets lost in the conversation is that in order to CC a green player, you have to flag yourself up as purple. So you aren't able to CC people with zero risk. You have to flag purple which opens you to attack by anyone else. Not that that would stop all people from doing it, but there would be a risk they're taking when doing it.
All of that said, I can get behind the idea of green CC immunity mostly. Where it begins to lose me is the idea that green players who are actively attacking and trying to kill a red, can not be CC'd by that red. The red can't use his full class kit to defend himself, on top of all the other penalties. That's just wacko world to me, and always will be.
But you're right, this probably will affect certain classes and builds more than others. There's a lot we don't know right now such as how important CC will be in general, how important it will be for certain classes, and other things which makes this subject hard to debate. But you raise some good points. I hope they put some more thought into it.
All of that said (#2), greens had some CC immunity in Lineage II, which is what Ashes' system is based off of. So it's probably not going anywhere. But in L2 greens weren't immune to CC skills that did damage. We could use more clarification from Steven on the specifics. As of now, it's just a blanket greens can't be CC'd ever.
But yeah I'm with you, I think there are other solutions. Limit it to certain CC's like Lineage Ii. Perhaps more favorable diminishing return timers for CC's against greens. There's a number of ways they can focus more on fixing the specific problem they're trying to fix, instead of blanket solutions that create new problems, like the ones you listed.
I think the CC immunity for greens is just a band-aid for a much broader issue with the Corruption System. The only reason I see for this existing is to prevent players from CCing greens to get them killed while they're actively fighting PVE mobs, avoiding corruption, but there are better solutions to this problem. I see this "solution" causing more problems than the one it's supposed to be fixing. There are several situations where it doesn't make sense, some of which have been mentioned.
There is a situation that keeps comming to my mind is that yesterday's red who killed a farmer, will be green tomorow. This corrupted probably didn't get any significant loot, since drops are only materials and it's just a portion.
But tomorrow, the corrupted is already backin green and walking in the city, probably will wave goodbye to his yesterday's victim and say " hi nub, git gud". Tomorrow nobody can touch the ex corrupted hehehe
Well, in another game we have kill rights and they last 30 days, people from that other game may have fixed their character who is not red anymore, but the kill right is still active! When the guy passes by, you can click and activate the kill right and kill the guy even inside a "safe zone". The kill right surpasses everything.
If AoC had something similitar to kill rights, then the bounty hunters would have a lot of things to do and the ex corrupted will be killed anyway. The kill rights have these as availability:
private: you run the justice, only you can see kill right
public: anyone can run the kill right, even the ganker's alt could kill his main.. it is a circunvent
transfer: another person or guild will run the kill right for you
@NiKr have you ever seen kill rights? It's quite cool
This benefits certain class types/builds more than others and caters to Farmers and Pvers (Carebears). Classes that rely on CC as a core component of their kit such as tanks or fighter types, will now be worthless against greens. A player training mobs onto you, to bypass corruption, cannot be stopped. Corrupt players that rely on CC won't be able to do anything against greens. DPS roles will benefit since they rely on high damage abilities and will be mostly unaffected compared to others. And probably the biggest issue I can see with the change, farmers transporting goods can now spec solely into movement skills, speed buffs and defensives and will be literally unstoppable. What's to stop any green player from simply running away whenever they get attacked now? They can't be CCed. All they have to do now is be faster than those attacking them.
Yes, trainning will happen, but the main flaw here is poor AI... why can't the mobs CC too?
Yes, the traveling green working as mule will happen, but I don't think that this is game breaking because greens only drop a few materials... they don't even drop finished items from their bag.
It is helpful also for PvPers, who want to travel to somewhere else as fast as possible, since there won't be a lot of teleports in AoC, people will have to travel a lot. This isn't game breaking either, but it's a bit cringe.
There should always be risk involved as that is one of the core philosophies of this game, but this gives a huge advantage to greens/passive type players. The main deterrent from flagging on greens is supposed to be the Corruption System, which already heavily penalizes players in SO MANY ways for going corrupt. This is excessive. How about instead of expecting the game to shelter you from the big bad PvPers, you have a little self responsibility? Self awareness, situational awareness, don't go out by yourself into contested areas and expect to be safe from PvP throughout the whole game. Enough hand holding, this is supposed to be a PvX game. Stop catering to Carebears that want to run around the world by themselves picking flowers all day in a safety bubble.
There's barely any real risk in PvP in AoC, since people won't have significant losses, people's loss will mostly be those penalties. The only big losses will be losing the node, houses, freehold and ships.
Steven wants people fighting for the big stuff.
In the past when Ultima Online was raw and new, if you kill someone carrying a castle deed and it's key, you could steal the castle deed and the key and place the castle anywhere and it would be yours... LOL... the price of a castle was like 20x the price of a house. Ultima Online had risk... AoC has barely any risk in small scale PvP
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
Throw a few hits just to see if the green will turn purple, the green will probably use a blink spell, then he will heal and possibly drink a potion, then turn purple and fight back.
You only become red if the victim dies, there will be many purples jumpscaring some greens, they will deal a few hits without killing the green completely... obviously accidents may happen lol
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
I think the CC immunity for greens is just a band-aid for a much broader issue with the Corruption System. The only reason I see for this existing is to prevent players from CCing greens to get them killed while they're actively fighting PVE mobs, avoiding corruption, but there are better solutions to this problem. I see this "solution" causing more problems than the one it's supposed to be fixing. There are several situations where it doesn't make sense, some of which have been mentioned.
This benefits certain class types/builds more than others and caters to Farmers and Pvers (Carebears). Classes that rely on CC as a core component of their kit such as tanks or fighter types, will now be worthless against greens. A player training mobs onto you, to bypass corruption, cannot be stopped. Corrupt players that rely on CC won't be able to do anything against greens. DPS roles will benefit since they rely on high damage abilities and will be mostly unaffected compared to others. And probably the biggest issue I can see with the change, farmers transporting goods can now spec solely into movement skills, speed buffs and defensives and will be literally unstoppable. What's to stop any green player from simply running away whenever they get attacked now? They can't be CCed. All they have to do now is be faster than those attacking them.
There should always be risk involved as that is one of the core philosophies of this game, but this gives a huge advantage to greens/passive type players. The main deterrent from flagging on greens is supposed to be the Corruption System, which already heavily penalizes players in SO MANY ways for going corrupt. This is excessive. How about instead of expecting the game to shelter you from the big bad PvPers, you have a little self responsibility? Self awareness, situational awareness, don't go out by yourself into contested areas and expect to be safe from PvP throughout the whole game. Enough hand holding, this is supposed to be a PvX game. Stop catering to Carebears that want to run around the world by themselves picking flowers all day in a safety bubble.
you are my good it's good that someone supports my point of view. Not a fair system limit for greens. But I want to clarify, there are ways besides cc to kill the green without getting corruption, for example, heal a mob or just deal damage, but not kill, while the green fights with a strong mob
I think the CC immunity for greens is just a band-aid for a much broader issue with the Corruption System. The only reason I see for this existing is to prevent players from CCing greens to get them killed while they're actively fighting PVE mobs, avoiding corruption, but there are better solutions to this problem. I see this "solution" causing more problems than the one it's supposed to be fixing. There are several situations where it doesn't make sense, some of which have been mentioned.
There is a situation that keeps comming to my mind is that yesterday's red who killed a farmer, will be green tomorow. This corrupted probably didn't get any significant loot, since drops are only materials and it's just a portion.
But tomorrow, the corrupted is already backin green and walking in the city, probably will wave goodbye to his yesterday's victim and say " hi nub, git gud". Tomorrow nobody can touch the ex corrupted hehehe
Well, in another game we have kill rights and they last 30 days, people from that other game may have fixed their character who is not red anymore, but the kill right is still active! When the guy passes by, you can click and activate the kill right and kill the guy even inside a "safe zone". The kill right surpasses everything.
If AoC had something similitar to kill rights, then the bounty hunters would have a lot of things to do and the ex corrupted will be killed anyway. The kill rights have these as availability:
private: you run the justice, only you can see kill right
public: anyone can run the kill right, even the ganker's alt could kill his main.. it is a circunvent
transfer: another person or guild will run the kill right for you
@NiKr have you ever seen kill rights? It's quite cool
This benefits certain class types/builds more than others and caters to Farmers and Pvers (Carebears). Classes that rely on CC as a core component of their kit such as tanks or fighter types, will now be worthless against greens. A player training mobs onto you, to bypass corruption, cannot be stopped. Corrupt players that rely on CC won't be able to do anything against greens. DPS roles will benefit since they rely on high damage abilities and will be mostly unaffected compared to others. And probably the biggest issue I can see with the change, farmers transporting goods can now spec solely into movement skills, speed buffs and defensives and will be literally unstoppable. What's to stop any green player from simply running away whenever they get attacked now? They can't be CCed. All they have to do now is be faster than those attacking them.
Yes, trainning will happen, but the main flaw here is poor AI... why can't the mobs CC too?
Yes, the traveling green working as mule will happen, but I don't think that this is game breaking because greens only drop a few materials... they don't even drop finished items from their bag.
It is helpful also for PvPers, who want to travel to somewhere else as fast as possible, since there won't be a lot of teleports in AoC, people will have to travel a lot. This isn't game breaking either, but it's a bit cringe.
There should always be risk involved as that is one of the core philosophies of this game, but this gives a huge advantage to greens/passive type players. The main deterrent from flagging on greens is supposed to be the Corruption System, which already heavily penalizes players in SO MANY ways for going corrupt. This is excessive. How about instead of expecting the game to shelter you from the big bad PvPers, you have a little self responsibility? Self awareness, situational awareness, don't go out by yourself into contested areas and expect to be safe from PvP throughout the whole game. Enough hand holding, this is supposed to be a PvX game. Stop catering to Carebears that want to run around the world by themselves picking flowers all day in a safety bubble.
There's barely any real risk in PvP in AoC, since people won't have significant losses, people's loss will mostly be those penalties. The only big losses will be losing the node, houses, freehold and ships.
Steven wants people fighting for the big stuff.
In the past when Ultima Online was raw and new, if you kill someone carrying a castle deed and it's key, you could steal the castle deed and the key and place the castle anywhere and it would be yours... LOL... the price of a castle was like 20x the price of a house. Ultima Online had risk... AoC has barely any risk in small scale PvP
I also mentioned this. there will be almost no good pve and evil pk players in the game. Now you are a pk because your nerves are out of order and you were forced to commit a crime, and an hour later you are already green and picking mushrooms and vice versa
but I have already come to terms with such a system, but in principle I know how people will get around it.
@Gospell I accepted that everything is for making sure that most people will experience this magical reactive world of Verra. But Intrepid threw the towel and gave up comming with something tasty but fair, maybe they didn't have the guy with the pvp mindset, who could bring modern pvp to the table.
So Intrepid is trying to play safe here, the game is about Verra and this should shine more than anything in the game.
I have come to accept that this is the best they could do to bring Verra into the spotlight, the star in the game is Verra with it's modern reactive world... not PvP. Even tough there's plenty of PvP, it's PvP from the 90s and the reactive world from 2020s.
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
I think the CC immunity for greens is just a band-aid for a much broader issue with the Corruption System. The only reason I see for this existing is to prevent players from CCing greens to get them killed while they're actively fighting PVE mobs, avoiding corruption, but there are better solutions to this problem. I see this "solution" causing more problems than the one it's supposed to be fixing. There are several situations where it doesn't make sense, some of which have been mentioned.
This benefits certain class types/builds more than others and caters to Farmers and Pvers (Carebears). Classes that rely on CC as a core component of their kit such as tanks or fighter types, will now be worthless against greens. A player training mobs onto you, to bypass corruption, cannot be stopped. Corrupt players that rely on CC won't be able to do anything against greens. DPS roles will benefit since they rely on high damage abilities and will be mostly unaffected compared to others. And probably the biggest issue I can see with the change, farmers transporting goods can now spec solely into movement skills, speed buffs and defensives and will be literally unstoppable. What's to stop any green player from simply running away whenever they get attacked now? They can't be CCed. All they have to do now is be faster than those attacking them.
There should always be risk involved as that is one of the core philosophies of this game, but this gives a huge advantage to greens/passive type players. The main deterrent from flagging on greens is supposed to be the Corruption System, which already heavily penalizes players in SO MANY ways for going corrupt. This is excessive. How about instead of expecting the game to shelter you from the big bad PvPers, you have a little self responsibility? Self awareness, situational awareness, don't go out by yourself into contested areas and expect to be safe from PvP throughout the whole game. Enough hand holding, this is supposed to be a PvX game. Stop catering to Carebears that want to run around the world by themselves picking flowers all day in a safety bubble.
I agree but also not being able to cc greens means you can interrupt their important skills when they try to fight back after you land the first hit. you can prevent them from healing as well.
id say cc that also does damage should land on greens, and cc that doesn't do damage shouldn't.
It's a temporary status. I don't think people will realistically stay in it and run, but maybe some cc should work. What if they just limited the number of stuns in the game and only stuns worked.
There shouldn't be scenarios where people can run away with no threat of dying. Maybe even Daze when you take damage out of combat. That way people can kill you, but you still have the first cc advantage.
It's a temporary status. I don't think people will realistically stay in it and run, but maybe some cc should work. What if they just limited the number of stuns in the game and only stuns worked.
There shouldn't be scenarios where people can run away with no threat of dying. Maybe even Daze when you take damage out of combat. That way people can kill you, but you still have the first cc advantage.
possible variant. If Stephen was inspired by L2, then he could have made exactly the same system, he just didn’t talk about it in more detail, but simply shrugged off "cc will not be green" I'll try to explain. there are skills that deal damage can control greens, for example, an archer stun or an orc / dwarf. There are skills that cannot be applied to green ones, such as sleep, root and many other debuffs that do not cause damage in order to avoid abuse, when one player could always get another to force him to answer or force him to leave the game. But there are exceptions, for example, there is a skill that instantly kills a target with a chance that has less than 10% of life left and this skill does not work on greens.There is also a tank paladin who can't take very many of his skills on greens, even on clan enemies. He can only attack criminals, he is still a representative of goodness and justice.
Such a system seems to me more thoughtful than just "we prohibit control of the greens"
Oh ya there's actually more room for class and character fantasy in this system. I think we need more of that.
Since there will be religion in the game, you can somehow come up with a punishment for killing a player. I'm not just talking about systemic debuffs, but about gameplay diversity. If the "good" classes commit crimes, then they will have to somehow atone for their sins, will it be a quest or something in the form of a donation to the temple, and until the criminal atones for the sin, he will not be able to use certain skills and services of the temple. In general, you can think of a lot of things and it will be much better and more interesting than just introducing system locks and restrictions. I liked the idea with bounty hunters, only I would give them a gameplay moment too,they could detect pk from the puddle of blood left after the death of a green. If they found blood, then the reward for the head of the criminal increases (up to a certain amount), pk locations are opened. I also think that for pk you need to enter a prison for a short time, in order to avoid abuse from 2 friends ... but that's another topic
Oh ya there's actually more room for class and character fantasy in this system. I think we need more of that.
Since there will be religion in the game, you can somehow come up with a punishment for killing a player. I'm not just talking about systemic debuffs, but about gameplay diversity. If the "good" classes commit crimes, then they will have to somehow atone for their sins, will it be a quest or something in the form of a donation to the temple, and until the criminal atones for the sin, he will not be able to use certain skills and services of the temple. In general, you can think of a lot of things and it will be much better and more interesting than just introducing system locks and restrictions. I liked the idea with bounty hunters, only I would give them a gameplay moment too,they could detect pk from the puddle of blood left after the death of a green. If they found blood, then the reward for the head of the criminal increases (up to a certain amount), pk locations are opened. I also think that for pk you need to enter a prison for a short time, in order to avoid abuse from 2 friends ... but that's another topic
Yeap, definitely!
You can actually increase the world reactiveness by other types of punishment other than picking a few flowers to fix corruption. Roleplay wise it would be awesome
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
Oh ya there's actually more room for class and character fantasy in this system. I think we need more of that.
Since there will be religion in the game, you can somehow come up with a punishment for killing a player. I'm not just talking about systemic debuffs, but about gameplay diversity. If the "good" classes commit crimes, then they will have to somehow atone for their sins, will it be a quest or something in the form of a donation to the temple, and until the criminal atones for the sin, he will not be able to use certain skills and services of the temple. In general, you can think of a lot of things and it will be much better and more interesting than just introducing system locks and restrictions. I liked the idea with bounty hunters, only I would give them a gameplay moment too,they could detect pk from the puddle of blood left after the death of a green. If they found blood, then the reward for the head of the criminal increases (up to a certain amount), pk locations are opened. I also think that for pk you need to enter a prison for a short time, in order to avoid abuse from 2 friends ... but that's another topic
Let's be perfectly clear here.
You are complaining about system locks and restrictions (corruption), and as a potential fix you are suggesting other system locks and restrictions (loss of access to skills and services at the temple).
In both cases there is a basic grind to rid the punishment.
The main difference is that Intrepids system is an across the board equal punishment to everyone, where as yours appears as if it will apply differently to different players, allowing groups to game the system in order to suffer the least penalty.
Oh ya there's actually more room for class and character fantasy in this system. I think we need more of that.
Since there will be religion in the game, you can somehow come up with a punishment for killing a player. I'm not just talking about systemic debuffs, but about gameplay diversity. If the "good" classes commit crimes, then they will have to somehow atone for their sins, will it be a quest or something in the form of a donation to the temple, and until the criminal atones for the sin, he will not be able to use certain skills and services of the temple. In general, you can think of a lot of things and it will be much better and more interesting than just introducing system locks and restrictions. I liked the idea with bounty hunters, only I would give them a gameplay moment too,they could detect pk from the puddle of blood left after the death of a green. If they found blood, then the reward for the head of the criminal increases (up to a certain amount), pk locations are opened. I also think that for pk you need to enter a prison for a short time, in order to avoid abuse from 2 friends ... but that's another topic
religions can be evil too and incentivize you to pk and reward you for it!
Oh ya there's actually more room for class and character fantasy in this system. I think we need more of that.
Since there will be religion in the game, you can somehow come up with a punishment for killing a player. I'm not just talking about systemic debuffs, but about gameplay diversity. If the "good" classes commit crimes, then they will have to somehow atone for their sins, will it be a quest or something in the form of a donation to the temple, and until the criminal atones for the sin, he will not be able to use certain skills and services of the temple. In general, you can think of a lot of things and it will be much better and more interesting than just introducing system locks and restrictions. I liked the idea with bounty hunters, only I would give them a gameplay moment too,they could detect pk from the puddle of blood left after the death of a green. If they found blood, then the reward for the head of the criminal increases (up to a certain amount), pk locations are opened. I also think that for pk you need to enter a prison for a short time, in order to avoid abuse from 2 friends ... but that's another topic
Let's be perfectly clear here.
You are complaining about system locks and restrictions (corruption), and as a potential fix you are suggesting other system locks and restrictions (loss of access to skills and services at the temple).
In both cases there is a basic grind to rid the punishment.
The main difference is that Intrepids system is an across the board equal punishment to everyone, where as yours appears as if it will apply differently to different players, allowing groups to game the system in order to suffer the least penalty.
Great work my dude.
do you really not see the difference? oh my God ... What makes you think that I complain about corruption? I'm just talking about a logical explanation for debuffs, and what I wrote was written in haste and just as an example of what I mean. I want to clarify some point, I am generally against debuffs for pk players, but I resigned myself to the fact that they will, so why not do it logically?
As for the classes.... Everyone should be punished. for religious classes to diversify this moment. When I wrote about skill limits, I didn't mean combat skills
Oh ya there's actually more room for class and character fantasy in this system. I think we need more of that.
Since there will be religion in the game, you can somehow come up with a punishment for killing a player. I'm not just talking about systemic debuffs, but about gameplay diversity. If the "good" classes commit crimes, then they will have to somehow atone for their sins, will it be a quest or something in the form of a donation to the temple, and until the criminal atones for the sin, he will not be able to use certain skills and services of the temple. In general, you can think of a lot of things and it will be much better and more interesting than just introducing system locks and restrictions. I liked the idea with bounty hunters, only I would give them a gameplay moment too,they could detect pk from the puddle of blood left after the death of a green. If they found blood, then the reward for the head of the criminal increases (up to a certain amount), pk locations are opened. I also think that for pk you need to enter a prison for a short time, in order to avoid abuse from 2 friends ... but that's another topic
religions can be evil too and incentivize you to pk and reward you for it!
So far, nothing is known about the religion in the game and whether there will be any evil religions at all
Oh ya there's actually more room for class and character fantasy in this system. I think we need more of that.
Since there will be religion in the game, you can somehow come up with a punishment for killing a player. I'm not just talking about systemic debuffs, but about gameplay diversity. If the "good" classes commit crimes, then they will have to somehow atone for their sins, will it be a quest or something in the form of a donation to the temple, and until the criminal atones for the sin, he will not be able to use certain skills and services of the temple. In general, you can think of a lot of things and it will be much better and more interesting than just introducing system locks and restrictions. I liked the idea with bounty hunters, only I would give them a gameplay moment too,they could detect pk from the puddle of blood left after the death of a green. If they found blood, then the reward for the head of the criminal increases (up to a certain amount), pk locations are opened. I also think that for pk you need to enter a prison for a short time, in order to avoid abuse from 2 friends ... but that's another topic
Let's be perfectly clear here.
You are complaining about system locks and restrictions (corruption), and as a potential fix you are suggesting other system locks and restrictions (loss of access to skills and services at the temple).
In both cases there is a basic grind to rid the punishment.
The main difference is that Intrepids system is an across the board equal punishment to everyone, where as yours appears as if it will apply differently to different players, allowing groups to game the system in order to suffer the least penalty.
Great work my dude.
do you really not see the difference? oh my God ... What makes you think that I complain about corruption? I'm just talking about a logical explanation for debuffs
Why are you ignoring the logical explanation for corruption then?
Why is your logical explanation better than Intrepids?
Oh ya there's actually more room for class and character fantasy in this system. I think we need more of that.
Since there will be religion in the game, you can somehow come up with a punishment for killing a player. I'm not just talking about systemic debuffs, but about gameplay diversity. If the "good" classes commit crimes, then they will have to somehow atone for their sins, will it be a quest or something in the form of a donation to the temple, and until the criminal atones for the sin, he will not be able to use certain skills and services of the temple. In general, you can think of a lot of things and it will be much better and more interesting than just introducing system locks and restrictions. I liked the idea with bounty hunters, only I would give them a gameplay moment too,they could detect pk from the puddle of blood left after the death of a green. If they found blood, then the reward for the head of the criminal increases (up to a certain amount), pk locations are opened. I also think that for pk you need to enter a prison for a short time, in order to avoid abuse from 2 friends ... but that's another topic
Let's be perfectly clear here.
You are complaining about system locks and restrictions (corruption), and as a potential fix you are suggesting other system locks and restrictions (loss of access to skills and services at the temple).
In both cases there is a basic grind to rid the punishment.
The main difference is that Intrepids system is an across the board equal punishment to everyone, where as yours appears as if it will apply differently to different players, allowing groups to game the system in order to suffer the least penalty.
Great work my dude.
do you really not see the difference? oh my God ... What makes you think that I complain about corruption? I'm just talking about a logical explanation for debuffs
Why are you ignoring the logical explanation for corruption then?
I have no idea. Apparently you did not understand something and you need to carefully re-read
Why is your logical explanation better than Intrepids?
What exactly? Corruption? I did not try to explain anything about corruption, why should I do this? It suits me just fine.
Perhaps you are confused and did not understand the difference between corruption and what I proposed to somehow logically explain the debuffs on the pk
Oh ya there's actually more room for class and character fantasy in this system. I think we need more of that.
Since there will be religion in the game, you can somehow come up with a punishment for killing a player. I'm not just talking about systemic debuffs, but about gameplay diversity. If the "good" classes commit crimes, then they will have to somehow atone for their sins, will it be a quest or something in the form of a donation to the temple, and until the criminal atones for the sin, he will not be able to use certain skills and services of the temple. In general, you can think of a lot of things and it will be much better and more interesting than just introducing system locks and restrictions. I liked the idea with bounty hunters, only I would give them a gameplay moment too,they could detect pk from the puddle of blood left after the death of a green. If they found blood, then the reward for the head of the criminal increases (up to a certain amount), pk locations are opened. I also think that for pk you need to enter a prison for a short time, in order to avoid abuse from 2 friends ... but that's another topic
Let's be perfectly clear here.
You are complaining about system locks and restrictions (corruption), and as a potential fix you are suggesting other system locks and restrictions (loss of access to skills and services at the temple).
In both cases there is a basic grind to rid the punishment.
The main difference is that Intrepids system is an across the board equal punishment to everyone, where as yours appears as if it will apply differently to different players, allowing groups to game the system in order to suffer the least penalty.
Great work my dude.
do you really not see the difference? oh my God ... What makes you think that I complain about corruption? I'm just talking about a logical explanation for debuffs
Why are you ignoring the logical explanation for corruption then?
I have no idea. Apparently you did not understand something and you need to carefully re-read
Why is your logical explanation better than Intrepids?
What exactly? Corruption? I did not try to explain anything about corruption, why should I do this? It suits me just fine.
Perhaps you are confused and did not understand the difference between corruption and what I proposed to somehow logically explain the debuffs on the pk
Perhaps you need to do a better job of explaining.
Now, keep in mind, you yourself just finished saying that what you wrote was written in haste. If you write something in haste, and people misunderstand you, dont blame the reader, blame the writer.
Rather than attempting to continue a discussion with a misunderstanding, I'm going to give you the opportunity to correct said misunderstanding. Feel free to explain yourself better, if you believe I have misunderstood you.
Comments
No, you could turn Ashes PvP in to something a PK like yourself would be happy with.
That is all.
being able to teleport to safety when you are going to die in PVP is unfun and not engaging!!!
This benefits certain class types/builds more than others and caters to Farmers and Pvers (Carebears). Classes that rely on CC as a core component of their kit such as tanks or fighter types, will now be worthless against greens. A player training mobs onto you, to bypass corruption, cannot be stopped. Corrupt players that rely on CC won't be able to do anything against greens. DPS roles will benefit since they rely on high damage abilities and will be mostly unaffected compared to others. And probably the biggest issue I can see with the change, farmers transporting goods can now spec solely into movement skills, speed buffs and defensives and will be literally unstoppable. What's to stop any green player from simply running away whenever they get attacked now? They can't be CCed. All they have to do now is be faster than those attacking them.
There should always be risk involved as that is one of the core philosophies of this game, but this gives a huge advantage to greens/passive type players. The main deterrent from flagging on greens is supposed to be the Corruption System, which already heavily penalizes players in SO MANY ways for going corrupt. This is excessive. How about instead of expecting the game to shelter you from the big bad PvPers, you have a little self responsibility? Self awareness, situational awareness, don't go out by yourself into contested areas and expect to be safe from PvP throughout the whole game. Enough hand holding, this is supposed to be a PvX game. Stop catering to Carebears that want to run around the world by themselves picking flowers all day in a safety bubble.
For most other applications of PKing - the system is doing its job. You want to take someone's farming spot but they're not flagging up? PK them and start grinding off your corruption right away. Some rando green is trying to mess up your boss farm w/o flagging up? PK them and hope that wasn't a trap or that the trap is slow enough for you to finish the boss. But if you just want to kill someone for no reason at all - fuck you and you deserve the penalty and being hunted by greens and BHs.
Going red is supposed to be the last resort and only in cases where its value is higher than any potential loss. And I'd imagine that these situations would be reaaaally rare.
That's the reason that's been given. I agree with that reasoning. I wouldn't want to see a meta develop where that kind of thing is happening all the time, where it's just what you do, log in and CC some people while they're fighting mobs. I don't want to see that.
But I'm not sure that blanket green CC immunity is the answer either. One thing that I think gets lost in the conversation is that in order to CC a green player, you have to flag yourself up as purple. So you aren't able to CC people with zero risk. You have to flag purple which opens you to attack by anyone else. Not that that would stop all people from doing it, but there would be a risk they're taking when doing it.
All of that said, I can get behind the idea of green CC immunity mostly. Where it begins to lose me is the idea that green players who are actively attacking and trying to kill a red, can not be CC'd by that red. The red can't use his full class kit to defend himself, on top of all the other penalties. That's just wacko world to me, and always will be.
But you're right, this probably will affect certain classes and builds more than others. There's a lot we don't know right now such as how important CC will be in general, how important it will be for certain classes, and other things which makes this subject hard to debate. But you raise some good points. I hope they put some more thought into it.
All of that said (#2), greens had some CC immunity in Lineage II, which is what Ashes' system is based off of. So it's probably not going anywhere. But in L2 greens weren't immune to CC skills that did damage. We could use more clarification from Steven on the specifics. As of now, it's just a blanket greens can't be CC'd ever.
But yeah I'm with you, I think there are other solutions. Limit it to certain CC's like Lineage Ii. Perhaps more favorable diminishing return timers for CC's against greens. There's a number of ways they can focus more on fixing the specific problem they're trying to fix, instead of blanket solutions that create new problems, like the ones you listed.
There is a situation that keeps comming to my mind is that yesterday's red who killed a farmer, will be green tomorow. This corrupted probably didn't get any significant loot, since drops are only materials and it's just a portion.
But tomorrow, the corrupted is already backin green and walking in the city, probably will wave goodbye to his yesterday's victim and say " hi nub, git gud". Tomorrow nobody can touch the ex corrupted hehehe
Well, in another game we have kill rights and they last 30 days, people from that other game may have fixed their character who is not red anymore, but the kill right is still active! When the guy passes by, you can click and activate the kill right and kill the guy even inside a "safe zone". The kill right surpasses everything.
If AoC had something similitar to kill rights, then the bounty hunters would have a lot of things to do and the ex corrupted will be killed anyway. The kill rights have these as availability:
@NiKr have you ever seen kill rights? It's quite cool
Yes, trainning will happen, but the main flaw here is poor AI... why can't the mobs CC too?
Yes, the traveling green working as mule will happen, but I don't think that this is game breaking because greens only drop a few materials... they don't even drop finished items from their bag.
It is helpful also for PvPers, who want to travel to somewhere else as fast as possible, since there won't be a lot of teleports in AoC, people will have to travel a lot. This isn't game breaking either, but it's a bit cringe.
There's barely any real risk in PvP in AoC, since people won't have significant losses, people's loss will mostly be those penalties. The only big losses will be losing the node, houses, freehold and ships.
Steven wants people fighting for the big stuff.
In the past when Ultima Online was raw and new, if you kill someone carrying a castle deed and it's key, you could steal the castle deed and the key and place the castle anywhere and it would be yours... LOL... the price of a castle was like 20x the price of a house. Ultima Online had risk... AoC has barely any risk in small scale PvP
Throw a few hits just to see if the green will turn purple, the green will probably use a blink spell, then he will heal and possibly drink a potion, then turn purple and fight back.
You only become red if the victim dies, there will be many purples jumpscaring some greens, they will deal a few hits without killing the green completely... obviously accidents may happen lol
you are my good
I also mentioned this. there will be almost no good pve and evil pk players in the game. Now you are a pk because your nerves are out of order and you were forced to commit a crime, and an hour later you are already green and picking mushrooms and vice versa
but I have already come to terms with such a system, but in principle I know how people will get around it.
So Intrepid is trying to play safe here, the game is about Verra and this should shine more than anything in the game.
I have come to accept that this is the best they could do to bring Verra into the spotlight, the star in the game is Verra with it's modern reactive world... not PvP. Even tough there's plenty of PvP, it's PvP from the 90s and the reactive world from 2020s.
I agree but also not being able to cc greens means you can interrupt their important skills when they try to fight back after you land the first hit. you can prevent them from healing as well.
id say cc that also does damage should land on greens, and cc that doesn't do damage shouldn't.
There shouldn't be scenarios where people can run away with no threat of dying. Maybe even Daze when you take damage out of combat. That way people can kill you, but you still have the first cc advantage.
U.S. East
possible variant. If Stephen was inspired by L2, then he could have made exactly the same system, he just didn’t talk about it in more detail, but simply shrugged off "cc will not be green" I'll try to explain. there are skills that deal damage can control greens, for example, an archer stun or an orc / dwarf. There are skills that cannot be applied to green ones, such as sleep, root and many other debuffs that do not cause damage in order to avoid abuse, when one player could always get another to force him to answer or force him to leave the game. But there are exceptions, for example, there is a skill that instantly kills a target with a chance that has less than 10% of life left and this skill does not work on greens.There is also a tank paladin who can't take very many of his skills on greens, even on clan enemies. He can only attack criminals, he is still a representative of goodness and justice.
Such a system seems to me more thoughtful than just "we prohibit control of the greens"
U.S. East
Since there will be religion in the game, you can somehow come up with a punishment for killing a player. I'm not just talking about systemic debuffs, but about gameplay diversity. If the "good" classes commit crimes, then they will have to somehow atone for their sins, will it be a quest or something in the form of a donation to the temple, and until the criminal atones for the sin, he will not be able to use certain skills and services of the temple. In general, you can think of a lot of things and it will be much better and more interesting than just introducing system locks and restrictions. I liked the idea with bounty hunters, only I would give them a gameplay moment too,they could detect pk from the puddle of blood left after the death of a green. If they found blood, then the reward for the head of the criminal increases (up to a certain amount), pk locations are opened. I also think that for pk you need to enter a prison for a short time, in order to avoid abuse from 2 friends ... but that's another topic
Yeap, definitely!
You can actually increase the world reactiveness by other types of punishment other than picking a few flowers to fix corruption. Roleplay wise it would be awesome
Let's be perfectly clear here.
You are complaining about system locks and restrictions (corruption), and as a potential fix you are suggesting other system locks and restrictions (loss of access to skills and services at the temple).
In both cases there is a basic grind to rid the punishment.
The main difference is that Intrepids system is an across the board equal punishment to everyone, where as yours appears as if it will apply differently to different players, allowing groups to game the system in order to suffer the least penalty.
Great work my dude.
religions can be evil too and incentivize you to pk and reward you for it!
do you really not see the difference? oh my God ... What makes you think that I complain about corruption? I'm just talking about a logical explanation for debuffs, and what I wrote was written in haste and just as an example of what I mean. I want to clarify some point, I am generally against debuffs for pk players, but I resigned myself to the fact that they will, so why not do it logically?
As for the classes.... Everyone should be punished. for religious classes to diversify this moment. When I wrote about skill limits, I didn't mean combat skills
So far, nothing is known about the religion in the game and whether there will be any evil religions at all
Why is your logical explanation better than Intrepids?
I have no idea. Apparently you did not understand something and you need to carefully re-read
What exactly? Corruption? I did not try to explain anything about corruption, why should I do this? It suits me just fine.
Perhaps you are confused and did not understand the difference between corruption and what I proposed to somehow logically explain the debuffs on the pk
Now, keep in mind, you yourself just finished saying that what you wrote was written in haste. If you write something in haste, and people misunderstand you, dont blame the reader, blame the writer.
Rather than attempting to continue a discussion with a misunderstanding, I'm going to give you the opportunity to correct said misunderstanding. Feel free to explain yourself better, if you believe I have misunderstood you.