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[Feedback Request] Alpha Two Mage Updates Shown in the April Livestream

VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
edited May 31 in General Discussion
Hello glorious community,

We’d like your feedback on the Alpha Two Mage Updates shown during the April 2023 Development Update Livestream.

To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters you can choose from:
  • How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far?
  • How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural?
  • How do you feel about the transitions between spells? Does this feel natural to you?
  • How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right?
  • What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Mage Archetype?
  • What are your favorite Mage archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
  • Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Mage Archetype?
Please don’t feel limited by the thought starters above. Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s Alpha Two Mage Updates shown during the April Development Update

We’ll be compiling a report for the design team on Friday, May 12, 2023, so please try to get your feedback into this thread by then!

Everyone here at Intrepid Studios looks forward to reading all the feedback you have to share!

---

Edit:

Hello everyone! Thank you for the great feedback :)

Our VFX artists would especially love some additional feedback regarding what was shown during the April 2023 Alpha Two Mage Updates Development Update Livestream.

They’d love feedback regarding, Mage Visual Effects. Visual effects / VFX is, in simple terms, what you see when you cast a spell.

Mage Visual Effects - How do you feel about the way a spell begins and ends? What looks good to you, and what feels clunky?
Do you feel the Mage animations are interesting and appropriate for their respective spells?
Do you feel the Mage's abilities look smooth and fluid to use?

We appreciate and look forward your feedback <3
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Comments

  • NiKrNiKr Member
    This was incredible. Effects look great, I love the mechanics and combos. The showcase itself was incredible and all the feedback implemented is HIGHLY appreciated.

    And I love the full-semi root on quite a few abilities. Gives a bit of a balance to the archetype.
  • MMOAddictMMOAddict Member
    edited April 28
    The movement during casting or channeling is great and the mage looks great aswel!

    About the shell spell: does it have to be a bubble? why not an etheric armor around the mage

    The alpha 1 spell that sucks enemies into a vortex is it still in the game?
    will there be damage over time abilities (dots)?
    the beginning of wisdom is to know you know nothing
  • ErtheiaErtheia Member
    the lighting ball it's better for the ball to glide down slowly instead of instantly moving down when there are stairs or something
  • edited April 28
    It looks good so far but I feel there is not enough visual feedback on combo's actually delivering.

    It could also do with a little more complexity, but this is probably far from the complete kit, so I'm not sure if I can judge correctly.

    My favourite mage in MMO's is probably the Red Mage of FFXXIV. The combo's, interweaving of spells between combo's etc. makes for excellent gameplay.

    I've got to say though, the Ball Lightning and the teleport spells look amazing to use.
  • arsnnarsnn Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One
    edited April 28
    9/10 Showcase

    This is the biggest leap we have seen from the combat until now.
    What was shown looks A2 ready for me and im optimistic they are gonna nail the mage with the experience of the remaining testing phases.
  • My question is what's with all the the effects on blink, the warping of space and void cloud effect ad cool but what's with the extra all consuming void ball that consumes the playing.
    I feel like it's a bit much for such a simple spell.
    It's the same with the lightning Ball so many "Orbs".
  • CCC_HANCCC_HAN Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2
    How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far?

    Overall, we haven't seen much yet, apart from some skills. Things like self-buffs, proper combos - except for the short demonstration rotation - the use of two skills (information on whether you can use blink and big aoes at the same time), Information whether you can interact with Aoe fields like the Aoe Blizzard when using the Fighter's Hammer skill to unleash extra chill on enemies near the location and more are still missing.
    Watching and playing feels different too.

    When choosing a weapon, there should be a difference in how the skills work.
    Overall from what I have seen so far, I can say for myself that the game/mage is moving in the right direction.


    How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural?

    Static gameplay is from yesterday, and moving around when casting most skills creates a good mood and dynamic, where you additionally have to calculate the way people move when casting things, especially in PvP.

    About the AoE Blizzard, In my opinion it should have the double amount of movement speed while casting it so not to lose momentum. The question is if you can blink while you cast it or not?

    How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right?

    I need to play/test it myself to give better feedback, so it's hard to say. In general there should be different difficulty levels for combos, it also depends on the content of course, PvE and PvP are played differently.

    Additional:

    1) I really like that the skills move with the different rises in the environment and that the skills don't just go straight up/threw, whether it's going up or down in front of you.

    2) Also, using certain skills behind objects can give pvp a new (skill) level of gameplay and adds more strategic gameplay. These two things impressed me the most. Well done!

    3) Opinions will differ here, but I'm not a fan of the slow recovery of health/mana points when you're not in combat.

    4) I hope we will see more differences between a melee and ranged mage.

    5) Like mentioned in the stream, the visual effects are work in progress, so there will probably be some changes before the launch, as some skills need a better visual effect.

    6) About the stream itself: The way the streams themselves are conducted is also going in the right direction and was quite good and entertaining this time. I am glad that the feedback on this is seen and taken into account.

    7) So on that point I can also add the feedback from my members, we are quite happy with what we have seen today. The game has great potential and we look forward to seeing more of it.
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  • SarerowSarerow Member
    edited April 28
    How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far?
    -Definitely progressing to be amazing.

    How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural?
    -The ability to move and cast spells is great. Personally I do believe maybe certain spells should be able to move faster casting than others. Example would be the sleep spell. I think you should sprinkle/blow the dust on the enemies(obviously not that. i do like the effect already you use) so then id say you'd be able to move faster. How I see it as basically like running around throwing sleeping dust to make them pass out. So that would def. allow faster movement then having to summon down charged lightning. etc. Maybe items that could allow you to gain faster movement speed while casting certain spells.


    How do you feel about the transitions between spells? Does this feel natural to you?
    -The transition seems to be very fluent and ascetically pleasing.

    How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right?
    -The Mage Archeype feels personally balanced as it should. A mage shouldn't be OP nor should it be squishy up close bc you are stuck in place. If the chaining spells is complex for someone, typically that just means that they need to practice and learn. It feels correct and right.


    What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Mage Archetype?
    -I have ALWAYS loved mages. I am excited to play a mage and a bard <3. I am intrigued to see if the spells get to combo smoothly with another class. (ima be picky as heck with the bard <3)

    What are your favorite Mage archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
    Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Mage Archetype?

    -The lightning is very nice and the sleep as well. The movement on the blink not just being so basically standard is sooooo great! I am more intrigued than concerned. If you electrify, chill etc. can your teammates use that? If so, is there a max bonus these ailment's will give? If you chill an opponent and your teammate goes to electrify them; will it cancel out, stack with chill, or will it just not take affect due to one ailment already there? If these stack next to each other: Do you plan to adjust it for pvp/guild battles as there is a possibility for OP ailment stacking.

    Can you imbue objects that for a short time will have a effect? So you can use that for traps etc. Like electrifying a rock you are shooting behind/using for coverage? If yes; will this be mainly for monsters and non pvp as that does add amazing new strategy but it can cause many OP issues etc.

    I would love Acid/Poison or celestial magic haha

    Sorry this was just a brief thought and i am not sure if you went over all of this. Just thoughts
  • IntegraIntegra Member
    There is a lack of proper feedback of status such as Shocked damage, the "SHOCKED" damage number shouldnt stand out more than the VFX delivery in my opinion.

    It's cool that we can move a bit during casting however it would be great to be able to stop casting... this will really depends on how much movement will be important during tight battles.

    It would have been nice to see some finisher like moves, maybe something that would have consumed the shocked status for bigger damage and bigger VFX.

    Overall great showcase of some mage/battlemage gameplay. Looking forward to curved abilities.
  • SweatycupSweatycup Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited April 29
    How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far?
    It seems like it is headed in a good direction. However there are a few things i disliked or am concerned about. I'm glad whether you heard my old post or not talking about the smart pathing for spells was wonderful addition.

    How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural?
    I like the fact i can move within reason. It's silly that one can't cant a spell in some games without moving.

    How do you feel about the transitions between spells? Does this feel natural to you?
    Yes and no. The effects from casting one element to the other buff/debuff effect were ok. However the effects i think should combine to have special effects so players can visually see these interaction happen when a mage is playing smart/efficiently.

    How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right?
    Seems simple enough. Sure there is a tad complexity but nothing to write home about. Straight-forward.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Mage Archetype?

    I am concerned about the sleep ability in PvP getting spammed by groups of mages and the blizzard effect looking way too unrealistic, bland and generic like copy past from WoW. I think the blizzard ability would be better with a snowy spherical swirling rounding effect rather then shards from a alien planet crashing down. I'd just re-do it, it is fugly. I was concerned also about the use of weapons seemed like it was totally missing something especially when you pulled out that greatsword. It just feels hollow and empty... a mage swinging it around seems off. I just never pictured a bodybuilder mage.. However i think a effect on the blade like some presence would clarify it's a fighter mage not a mage fighter. Hope that makes sense. So maybe a kinda warping wrap around effect like shield just literally over the flesh as the mage kind of possesses the blade/weapon so to speak. I assume the fighter>mage demo has not been refined at all either since it was purely mostly a Mage<Mage demo. I hope to see us use heavy-light armor/shields on our mages as well depending on mix like a Mage>Tank and vice-versa Tank-Mage with heavy armor and wand and shield for example. I assume a fighter used medium and/or heavy armor so it seemed off in the demo. But that's just how i see it in my head.
    I am excited about the more dynamic uses of spells being given options to play like the fire and forget mage spells. It allows the player to use the surroundings as a form of agency to broaden choices in scenarios. Overall it is a tiny bit too early without seeing mage fully fleshed out but that was my thoughts so far.

    Sidenote for the tiny Gliding demo.
    I hope that you all decide to launch the gliding mount into the air more violently. Give it a burst of energy in a direction before it starts gliding. Allow it to travel a tiny bit further with more momentum originally. A gryphon might use it strong legs to launch itself up violently before it glides as to where a gliding bird might violently flap its wings a bit erratically before losing strength falling into a glide.
  • nonameftwnonameftw Member, Warrior of Old, Kickstarter
    edited April 28
    - The ice vfx should melt not disappear in steps. (Would be cool if it were to leave wet spots)
    - It would be cool if different classes could get more powerful tool abilities (Water walking, creating food, slow fall etc.)
    - The current mage is basically the WoW mage. A few before unseen abilities would be nice to see.
    “Imagination is the only weapon in the war with reality.”
  • BrolvethBrolveth Member
    edited April 28
    I personally feel like making mage stationary and not being able to move while casting spells can't be a fatal flaw that will turn many against the class making it unplayable for them. Even if casting time is short it is critical to be able to move.
    Overall I very much like the idea of mage being able to move during his spells. Spells are subtle and don't take 90% of your screen with unnecessary particles. Spells for the most part feel natural with their movement and looks unlike it was in alpha one
  • The electric spells looked good but the frost spells lacked impact and the animations were so choppy.

    The basic frost bolt just stopped the moment it's tip hit an enemy, that looked pretty bad. If you want them to be stuck in the enemy you should add something like Kalista's passive stacks from league of legends to give visual feedback on that. If you want frostbolt to just hit then you should add a shatter effect on impact. At least that's how I see it working, right now it just looks like it disappears when it touches anything.

    The frost nova looks good when you're sitting still but the moment you move the effects start overlapping on the ground and it looks so messy. It looks messy by itself I can't even imagine when there's a bunch of mages using the ability. The animation needs to be cleaned up heavily. I think it would also help greatly if instead of having that lingering effect on the ground, it's just the ice crystals shattering on the ground, leaving behind a bit of mist. Something along those lines.
  • Loved how the mage is coming along. My question though:

    The lightning bolt attack reminded me alot of the one in lotro for the lore-master. It starts off a bit weak looking/sounding, very "zappy", but as you gain more skill an upgrade it, it becomes very explosive, more blinding, an has a real "thunder" feel with it to. Can we expect spells like this to evolve an upgrade in AoC?
  • pfunzlepfunzle Member
    edited April 28
    I love the movement on the more faster casting/basic abilities. I believe there should be skills that root you in place though. A few big hitters that take your full focus to cast. Overall it looked really fun to cast stuff.

    Love the visuals so far and the direction it is taking. Thanks for all your hard work you put in to provide us with a world we can delve into.
  • iARNiARN Member
    edited April 28
    How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far? Personally, as a boomer MMO player, I am in favor of the mages current direction, based on the showcase.

    How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural? Being able to move, at a slowed rate while casting, is good gameplay, imo. Please continue that thread of design.

    How do you feel about the transitions between spells? Does this feel natural to you? The animations felt magical, and powerful. I enjoyed what was shown as the early passes. Often in MMOs magic and casters just don't feel that magical, i felt that power and mysticism in the showcase. The magic was put back into magic and i really appreciated that dedication to the archetype.

    How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right? I think the rotational complexity demonstrated was in the Goldilocks zone, it didn't seem hamfisted trying to set up too complex of interactions, but it also wasn't insulting to a players intelligence, or look just plain boring.

    What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Mage Archetype? The ability for utility in a magical class in an MMO again! it's so prevalent now where all casters do is nuke and they have no toolkit to bring to the party, which i feel is a shame. things like the sleep, i'd like to see more along those lines. along with things like portals/ conjure food, etc (maybe not exactly those, but just as an example of utility and class identity spells)

    Keep it up!
  • Mage skill rotations, movement during casting, and lightning effects are all fantastic!
    The frost effects still need some work. Blizzard works well given its wide area and that its damage effect is ongoing, but Cone of Cold could be toned down (no shards).
    I especially like that mages can (and sometimes should) use non-traditional weapons like the greatsword, as well as the elemental effects. That last AoE clear with the plants and greatsword, with the lightning arcing between the plants along with the attacks - that was amazing. Not sure it would ever get old.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far?

    Strongly positive.

    How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural?
    No general concerns, given the current speed of movement while doing it. For example, the Ball Lightning, I'd actually have assumed you could move while charging that, perhaps even at closer to normal speed, given how it works. I'd suggest that, personally.

    How do you feel about the transitions between spells? Does this feel natural to you?
    Transitions seem natural at the moment, it's moreso difficult to say, a question I would have for example is if Mages can use the Action Camera to blink into the air and then activate Chain Lightning or Blizzard and not fall. I don't have a specific preference here (as this is a balance thing overall) but it's not entirely clear if transitions of this type happen.

    How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right?
    This is entirely dependent on the PvE experience, PvP does not often involve the same 'types' of 'rotation', though I would not have any problem with these in PvP.

    The PvE enemies tested/shown don't do a great job of clarifying how much complexity would exist, since it really comes down to 'what is there that enemies can do to make completing a basic rotation a risk?' I dislike games where the enemies give basically minimal or only very rare reasons to not just 'repeat rotation'.

    In a related point, the effects are spot on, utterly glorious now. I continue to advocate for the damage numbers remaining in the ranges shown, though I understand that with no intention of any level scaling, it would be very difficult to retain this type of thing.

    Only other concern is the range of Blink being way too much which then in turn makes the 'rotations' easy. I dislike this concept and would prefer the following:

    "Blink has half the current range, but can be instantly activated again within 1s to Blink again."

    What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Mage Archetype?
    Not likely to ever play as a Mage. Not particularly excited about playing against if they are grounded and can't attack from the air after a blink, since it is generally true that in order for the Mage to not feel weak, there wouldn't be many active things the 'defending player' could do against their relatively straightforward abilities. I'm likely to have much more feedback.

    The ability to have a group of mages set up a wall of fire, ice, lightning, etc, seems interesting, but with many abilities tied to stacking elements, I would expect or fear 'Manaburn'. This is another balance question, though, so I know it is not time for feedback on that.

    What are your favorite Mage archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
    I generally do not like Mage archetypes in other MMOs because they are generally 'turrets', and Ashes of Creation is the only game I've really 'liked' that implied any actual caring about elements and their effects, enough to pay attention to them. This is particularly true for Tab Targeted games, though this isn't a problem, I don't mind this type of gameplay at all, I just don't personally think about it much.

    From Predecessor, the 'Mages' are quite fun:
    Gadget: AoE master, Denial and 'Sticky Bomb' style effects that coordinates attacks with the expected or forced positions of the opponent, but lacking CC and escapes.
    Gideon: The Standard. Blink, drop Meteors, throw Comets, big AoE (Black Hole type).
    Howitzer: If this character used flames and explosions instead of rockets and grenades they'd fit right into a standard MMO.
    The Fey: DoT and Area Control, pushing and pulling targets and stacking damage that way.

    From Onigiri (Mage is attained by equipping related weapons):
    Good AoE and targeted elemental attacks, lots of reasons to think about which attack to use against specific enemies.

    From FFXI, the Mages (Black Mage, Red Mage mostly) are very comprehensive:
    As a Tab Targeted game, FFXI Mage gameplay is far more focused on the PvE target experience, as mentioned above. Ashes is not 'there yet' from just the showcase available, but I have no doubt that the plan is to surpass it.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Mage Archetype?
    Excitement: The ability to speculate that elemental weaknesses will actually matter, and the flows within the group will have real meaning. I call this excitement, but this is closer to 'please give me at least one other game to play where I have to care about this'.
    Concerns: The Blink, and the likely outcome of 'Multiple Mages in one party' with the current Synergies, I feel just as a 'random gut feeling' that it would be far too easy to just discard non-Mages other than the healer and Tank role.

    Even in FFXI which explicitly tried to resolve this by making the Skillchain system and making sure that Black Mages have no real ability to build super defensively, this was still an obvious choice for many situations. They needed to repeatedly explicitly avoid the concept of Mages synergizing with each other, and even with all that, it was still just as easy to 'ignore other classes'. This would also be a large concern for PvP balance, but again, not the time yet.

    It's still solved primarily by PvE difficulty and design, but my obvious bias is that FFXI does quite well here, and it's still a problem, so please pay attention to it later on in design (but obviously by then I'll be in Alpha-2 testing and complaining about it).

    This response covers my group's primary positive responses, you'll probably get the 'more negative'/'emotionally focused' responses from them, but generally, assume that anything that didn't get called out/quoted and disagreed with directly is a shared response.

    Other than that:
    Stream was absolutely perfect.

    Cows were great. Sheep were great. The Godsing set (I might have misheard the name of this) was THE BEST AND I WANT IT NOW.

    The showcase was exactly what I wanted, I felt that it enabled me to give the maximum amount of helpful feedback, while also letting me focus the feedback correctly. I look forward to more of these, I really hope that others didn't find this odd or boring because it hit every note for me, I can't be more thankful for it.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Oi! Game Designer and Mage fanatic here.

    Overall the concerns I had for the mage class have been taken care of, so now it is more specific or niche things that get noted.

    My favorite movement was the slight movement during blizzard, preferences I think will change from person to person so if you guys have a strong opinion I would defer to your judgement otherwise middle ground is your best bet. If mages are too mobile it's toxic if they are locked in place for every spell it is boring and easily punished.

    Transitions looked fine for the most part but this is more of a feel aspect than visual. The biggest thing to watch out for is buffering abilities. It feels best when you are near then end casting time of one spell and click another and instead of cancelling the first or anything it smoothly transitions into the second as soon as the first has finished casting.

    The combo complexity looks good so far. I think the most undervalued part of the combo shown is the arcane missile each applying the passive elemental stack which was great to see. I love the tiered status effects and mix and matching between different elements. But just stacked elemental effects and that one passive isn't going to be enough for the time investment people put into MMO's. I would look at allowing elemental status effect to apply to yourself, allies, and other spells as well. Examples being casting a frost spell then the arcane shields give you a frost buff on the shield that slows people who attack that shield (Basic example just to show concept), I can think of a bunch of these right now but hopefully you get the idea.

    I'm excited to play as one because of the player agency that is being referred to constantly. Worst part is that we don't have a hard example of that player agency. An example of a hard example would be if we can see part of a tree or adjustments for a single ability like if you can move fast during blizzard, or raise the AOE, decrease damage or radius but raise the hit rate of projectiles etc.

    I really enjoyed the mage in archaege because you got to add it with other supporting classes to make fun combos and it seems like you will be able to do the same in AoC.

    Overall looks more fun than any mage I have played in an MMO and still has room to grow which is the best part. Some animations or particles will hopefully see light changes and the player agency is a big factor determining the enjoyment of the class so I'm looking forward to eventually getting to see what that has in store. I like that you didn't try to ignore the basic spells when making the class, spells like frost bolt and chain lightning are always good to have, you don't have to reinvent the wheel all the time.

    I have a lot more insight into it overall and would love to talk more in depth, looking forward to the future success of your game :D
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The slower movement speed while casting is completely necessary and gives you a contrast between low freedom of movement but more damaging/utility and high freedom of movement but less damaging/utility. Agency = choice first and foremost and you have certainly nailed an appropriate amount of choices here.

    I'll probably edit in a few more notes, but that was the direct response to the dev's question for the community.
    With the temperament of an umbrella cosmetic that would make even a Kasa-obake blush.
  • MybroViajeroMybroViajero Member
    edited May 1
    How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far?
    1.- It seems to me that it goes in a very good direction.

    How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural?
    2.- I love the versatility of being able to move the mage while casting spells. I love it, it gives a more organic touch to the mage's movements because the players will have to analyze correctly their positioning to get the most potential to their skills, that is to generate a natural and organic need between the player and his character.

    How do you feel about the transitions between spells? Does this feel natural to you?
    3.-It seems to me the right direction and a good start to continue improving. It seems very natural to me from a perspective where players need to master their characters in the RIGHT way to get the most potential out of them.

    How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right?
    4.-It seems to me that the complexity is going in the right direction, it is what I expected from a real mage.
    It seems to me that it is very correct, in general the current direction seems to me totally correct.

    What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Mage Archetype?
    5.- The versatility and potential that the magician could have either in favor or as a challenge.

    What are your favorite Mage archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
    6.- Ok, I will not focus on normal archetypes of mages in MMORPGS because from my point of view, (excluding BDO, ESO, AA) the mages in MMORPGS seem to me like spell casting cones without mobility and repositioning that make the player don´t feel the naturalness of a combat.

    For me great examples of mages are these:

    -Sylashttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU98qbZ_upU
    -Ryze
    -Taliyah
    -LeBlanc
    -Ahri
    -Jayce
    -Lux
    -Swain
    -Vladimir
    -Karma
    -Zoe
    -Annie
    -Ziggs
    -Anivia


    What do they all have in common? Apart from using magic (whether natural, artificial or summoned) they all have in common that versatility of movement that is necessary for their abilities to be used to the fullest.
    They are not a cone stuck to the ground that only casts spells, they need that MOBILITY so that the skill kit can be used correctly, either using their skills in attack or defensive form.

    Thanks to those MOVEMENTS combined with their skill kit is that they have the opportunity to generate outplays in the form of attack or defense AND THAT IS WHAT MAKES THESE CHARACTERS AND THE MAJORITY OF LOL CHARACTERS INTERESTING AND SHOWY , the potential and importance that is given to the movement and positioning so they can generate incredible plays in the form of attack, counterattack or defense.

    Now many might say that LOL combat has nothing to do with MMORPG combat but if we take into account that LOL uses a base of target skills and a base of skills that need AIM Skills , then we could say that LOL uses to a greater or lesser extent a system that could be called HYBRID where there are champions who benefit from both TARGET skills and AIM SKILLS, therefore they benefit from their mobility and they are not simply cones that throw skills but they thanks to their movements + TARGET & AIM skills kit + combos with other champions make their skills can be used with the greatest of their potential.

    Example of TARGET & AIM skills kit + combos with other champions
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHY6dXAlrII

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Mage Archetype?

    I am excited about the potential and usefulness that other archetypes of mages will have, whether for attack, defense or situational. The only concern for me is if the mage will have too much dependence on artificial mana (potions, elixir, etc) or natural mana (natural mana regeneration, mana generated by the environment, use of mana from living beings, use of mana from the elements in the environment, etc).



    Ideas and things that I noticed in the update of the mage


    1.- Skills with character, that their casting movements have meaning and are eye-catching.


    #1 https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxl0eh9JVoCbUonS_1faAq6Ajt4UtgOM4l ( 30s Clip of the mage update )
    #2 https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxKzk0klLHQMEPMeG5ZfkTKGcEYcofruuU (30s Clip of the mage update )

    From my point of view the skill #1 with the #2 have a big difference, the #1 has more character, it is more showy and its casting movements feel better, on the other hand the skill number #2 seems that the character throws it with laziness/unwillingness, a skill without character, without force, without showiness.


    Idea:
    While not much can be done with some skills that are simpler than others, what could be done is to improve the way that skill is cast.
    Giving to that skill some more showy movements of casting could help a lot, also it could be added sounds of casting like screams, words, phrases, or more enjoyable sounds of beginning and end of the skill (like when lightning strikes) things that make that skill little showy is more enjoyable for the player.
    Edit : ( I reviewed the clip again and heard the lightning finisher sound, lol, mb . I think that in the Stream I did not hear it well because of the voices and the emotion.)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI0s9euRtCE


    2.- Combos interaction:
    The combos that the mage showed seem to me that they are going for a very correct direction, if it is like that the mentality of the direction of the future combos of the other classes/archetypes then it seems to me that it is going for one of the best ways to choose for the combat.

    But I would like to add some ideas:
    Note here this combo of skills https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxSs4S48-ZV_FDBd8o9ZxsUyy2ug2ptTSe , now imagine 40 people doing 80 different combos , how will I know if the combo of my partner #35 was done correctly for me to continue with a skill that can benefit/defend my partner and team in the fight?

    Idea :
    It would be interesting that the classes/archetypes have a way to show that the combo they have done correctly , either with a symbol , a letter , a number , the symbol of your class & archetype , color , sound , something that makes visible to others that the combo that made that class / archetype did it 100% , that would help a lot in future fights for positioning , counterattacks , attacks , defense , etc..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRYvkjkcE6w

    3.- It does not matter if the combat is very simple or complicated.
    The important thing is that the combat is FLUID AND HEALTHY FOR THE COLLECTIVE AND INDIVIDUAL PLAYABILITY OF AoC AND THAT IT HAS A POSITIVE DIRECTION TO CONTINUE IMPROVING.
    This is not an FPS where everyone has the same way of fighting, this is an MMO with many different characters with many different skills.
    In fact there will be characters that are easier to use than others, there will also be players that use certain characters better and there will be players that don't use other characters better but the point is that all of them should be given equal FLUIDITY, IMPORTANCE (depending on the situational importance of the class/archetype) to make their gameplay worthwhile.

    If it is a character that is much more difficult to use it could have some features of its own that will benefit it if a player really controls it optimally.
    If it is a character that is not so difficult to use, it could have some of its own characteristics that benefit him, or the team itself in some "X" situation.
    So whether it is a more individual, team or situational importance, ALL characters have their importance depending on how they are used, what they are used for and when they are used.

    It is not the same to be a Main carry, a Main support, a Main tank or a Main situational but ALL should have the opportunity to be IMPORTANT at some point in the game.
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  • I am not a mage player, and probably wont become one. Not because I didn't like what I saw, no quite the contrary I loved the Mage showcase. However, I am simple, I like hitting things with big metal sticks.

    But seeing how it could be reliable to be a melee DPS with magical abilities it made me want to actually play one.

    The showcase was awsome, and the mage I think is in a superb position, a great addition to any party but its also an Achilles heel where the party has to actually defend their glass cannon. The mage being able to customize themselves to perfectly fit the needs of the party, or the needs of the individual player are also amazing.

    The Animations while perhaps not finished yet were good, fluid and felt like they were actually doing something. Perhaps it would be nice to see ice building up along the arms of the mage as you continue casting "Ice" based spells. This could also be with fire based spells, as your clothes get scorched.
    It would be nice to see something like this, but of course this is something down the "Importance List".
    Being able to move during animations and casting is a nice addition, though it should be tied to how much damage a spell does in my opinion. A massive fireball requires more concentration, while a simple magic missile for example doesnt and allows to walk around.

    Some of my favourite mage archetypes are perhaps not exactly archetypes. Though I will say that I always found the "Bound Weapons" spells from Elder Scrolls as a nice touch. So a mage could technically transform from a robe wearing glass cannon to something that could take a punch while also being able to punch hard.
    I dont think AoC needs to have an unorthodox or totally unique way to play a mage, or some never seen before spells.

    It will be interesting to see how the mage evolves. I already think it will be a vital part of a party, while as I mentioned before being an Achilles heel.
    I think it will also be very interesting to see the Mage in Naval Content, perhaps ship vs ship combat or against large ocean dwelling monsters. As unlike the melee's they can just bombard the foe with spells and slow or stun, letting others line up for perfect "cannon" volleys.


    I dont know if its possible to even do, but maybe having the mage be able to burn down, freeze over or otherwise destroy objects in the world with spells could be really interesting.
    If there is a river inbetween a raid of say 20 people, and a caravan. The mage being able to temporarily make a ice bridge, or ice platforms on the ocean would be a really nice thing to see.

    Likewise mages being able to burn away "Shrubbery" in order to let siege equipment or players be able to see the enemy better.


    I am incredibly hyped for the game and cannot wait to see what will happen next. <3
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member
    edited April 28
    Love the direction combat is going. Huge improvement from before and presentation was great as well. 10/10 for the mage video.

    What are your favorite Mage archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.

    Aion Sorc and TERA Sorc and this gave me vibes of both of those.
  • So far, I'm very impressed with the mechanical design and technical execution of the mage, its abilities, and its elemental synergies. I'm also fairly happy with the visuals so far, but I'll mention some concerns with that at the end.

    I love the idea of being able to move while casting spells. The levitation animation while casting blizzard was amazing, really great stuff.

    The transitions were okay. Most mages in games I've played tend to stick 75% to one element, so to have this constantly shifting visual design on-screen felt a little disjointed to me, but perhaps it's just not something I'm used to. I think the issue with having access to all the elements, but only a few spells in each category, is that there's so much theoretical potential for spellcasting in all of those elements. But for some reason, this mage can only find 3-4 ways to cast frost magic? It just creates a bit of a logical inconsistency for me.

    You can (and most games do) have entire mage builds focused around a single element with several spells utilizing that magic type. They feel exhaustive in their applied creativity, and the potential uses for each element mostly seem considered to their full potential. You feel powerful and unique as a master of frost or fire, rather than someone who learned a few fancy tricks in each element.

    I think the synergies can still be a useful and engaging mechanic for mages, but maybe not every mage needs to have access to every synergy. Maybe they have to pick how they specialize? Get more frost specialization, but sacrifice some fire. More earth, but less lightning. Perhaps players choose to focus on one type of synergy between two elements and maybe have an off-spell to use a low level of another synergy type in rare scenarios?

    Kind of a strange analogy, but this is what I think makes characters so compelling in Avatar: The Last Airbender, if any of you have watched that before. Every character except the protagonist can only bend one type of element. They spend their entire lives honing that element, learning how to overcome challenges in unique ways with their given talent, and if they need to overcome other types of obstacles, they seek out the right type of bender to help them. If everyone in that show was the Avatar, and it's just a matter of how powerful a bender of all four elements you are, suddenly the characters get much less interesting and the visual style becomes garbled and dissonant. In general, I think consistency of visual style from a macro perspective needs to be a major focus for Ashes moving forward.

    The rotational complexity seems fine, but again, I think having different schools to specialize in rather than expecting all mages to use all the synergies would present a cleaner visual style for each player. Perhaps players can choose whether to get access to more powerful spells, or get access to more synergies. So you can choose to either specialize for more raw power, or become a jack of all trades to maximize your synergy usage.

    When it comes to the mage, I'm excited to play with physics and bend the natural laws. Levitation, blinking, attacking players around corners, all these elements sound right up my alley.

    The last thing I want to mention is visual style. I know we're still in an early Alpha stage, so I'm not saying I expected things to be "better" or different in any way, but I just wanted to give some feedback on how I think the visuals look so far.

    Lightning strike looks really wimpy right now imo. For all the build up and fun player animation taking place while the spell charges, it really doesn't have a satisfying impact on the enemy. It's a lightning strike after all, it should be surging through the enemy and skewering them with the ultimate exchange of power between the earth and the sky. Just because some skills need tuning down, doesn't mean they all do. We don't need to be blinded by a cleric every time they heal someone, but a lightning strike should look and feel like a lightning strike.

    The technical execution of ball lightning is really cool, and I love the intelligent lightning tendrils that reach out to the environment, but the actual orb that surrounds the spell doesn't feel right to me. It almost conceals the coolest part of the spell. Personally, I think it would much cooler if the orb was ditched and the spell was instead a chaotic ball of lightning at the center that jitters through the air towards the enemy with the tendrils sparking out of it. The orb just makes it seem so contained and not particularly dangerous looking.

    The ground effect while casting frost spells is very pretty, but the snowflake-looking animation seems a bit corny to me. Personally, I think something less patterned would be less distracting and more realistic. A build up of little ice crystal particles, a thin/spotty layer of snow, maybe some fog from freezing moisture in the air, something to that effect.

    The blink ability has some awesome smoke effects, but I'm not sure I like the circular portal that goes along with it. I think I'm interpreting correctly that it's supposed to be the gap in the fabric of reality that the mage is "jumping" through, but I think it almost obscures the smoke a bit, which is the coolest part to me. I'd love to see even a touch more smoke and then ditch the circle entirely. I think it would look much cleaner and more elegant.

    Overall, great work! Can't wait to see more. Thank you.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited April 30
    How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far?

    9/10, Extremely pleased with the direction and what was shown, excellent work on the Mage! love it, VFX are amazing and well-tuned, impactful, fluid, honestly I only have very minor things that need polish but is VERY close to a launch build for the Mage

    How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural?

    The amount of mobility that was shown for the Mage is PERFECT. You can move while casting most skills but are very slowed down the stronger the skill is, this is exactly how I hoped, just perfect. It looks awesome!

    How do you feel about the transitions between spells? Does this feel natural to you?

    Nothing to say here, very good transitions.

    How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right?

    It feels just right. good complexity that should be required for a class that is strong with so many AoEs.

    What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Mage Archetype?

    I'm a main Tank but I Always have a Mage as my alt character, so I am looking forward to playing a Mage! with and against in PVP!


    Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Mage Archetype?

    My main concern is that you change the direction, what you showcased was perfect, the mobility, VFX, and complexity, everything was amazing, it just needs some polish and it's perfect.

    The only change I'd like to see is going back on the idea that Hard CCs (sleep) should be tied to Action oriented skills. It doesn't make much sense from a balancing perspective to have a Tab Target 30m range Sleep... it should be action.
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  • SpaceWolfSpaceWolf Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    There was a time when I debated on Mage/Fighter or Fighter/Mage, but your stream almost definitely confirmed it for me: I plan on maining Mage.

    Blink's implementation is great, and moreover, I love all the utility effects you've added to various spells - your demonstration of Spellswording and how that interacts with the Mage debuffs was much appreciated. In the end, I prefer versatile builds that can function at mid and close range, builds that can kite well, and more ways to beat something than just punching straight through, and your current Mage progression seems to have these things.

    The one thing I felt was missing in your stream was some sort of Drain effect. I absolutely adore recursion abilities, and every Spellsword build I've tried in other games needs a Drain ability to feel whole. Aside from that, I felt your showcase covered all the bases I like.

    Thank you for sharing your work <3
  • EmberstoneEmberstone Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2
    Q) How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far?
    A) Very excited

    Q) How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural?
    A) Perfect, more of this movement while casting/channeling, even if you will be slowed while doing so.

    Q) How do you feel about the transitions between spells? Does this feel natural to you?
    A) Feels like it's flowing into one another nicely since they compliment each other with the stack mechanic

    Q) How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right?
    A) Feels too simple if all you do is rotate stacks to proc effects. We didn't get to see the other element(s) and what they do if they get introduced to the rotation. But it would be nice if certain skills have different effects when applied to the status in effect at the moment. Much like the fighter could prep the group with a status before the cleric applied a spell that - because of the status effect - made it a snare/root instead of a slow.

    Q) What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Mage Archetype?
    A) The fact you can use a melee weapon instead of a wand.
    My biggest concern would be however i'd have to spec str for my weapons to deal damage. It would be great if the mage gets to channel it's magic damage through the weapon and/or let the weapon scale off of the int stat. The same goes for fighter/mage. Have a mechanic that sustains the playstyle. It is never viable to just split your gear 50/50 towards mage/melee equipment. It will always fall behind class combinations that inherently just go better together, such as mage/summon or fighter/tank. It needs a built in mechanic.

    Q) What are your favorite Mage archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
    A) Weaver GW2. The fact you get to be flexible and match abilities to suit the situation. Weave elements down different combo paths to get the outcome you need.

    Q) Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Mage Archetype?
    A) I hoped to see different elements. I would've liked to see fire/water/air/earth/arcane as a base and have electricity attacks be a fire/air spell combo, lava a earth/fire spell combo, ice a water/air spell combo, sleep under arcane, but perhaps arcane/air to make it AoE etc.

    Base tier elements and "higher" tier elemental combo's might be nice for more depth to the class.

    I'd also love for the shell ability to overlay a second healthbar on top of the primary one to indicate how much shield you have left, or a seperate bar to indicate how much shield you have left

    The sfx of the lightning strike was also quite lackluster. Would be great if it had more "oomf" to the sound of the crackle/whip of the thunder

    The same goes for "ice bolt". It feels like the sfx for it is a bit... off. I don't really get any "ice" vibes. No freezing sounds, ice breaking sounds, pieces of ices rumbling over the floor sounds... If that makes sense XD....
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  • LashingLashing Member
    edited April 28
    My only feedback is to de-emphasize the exterior ball of the ball lightning and emphasize the interior one. The interior is much more visually appealing and should be the focus of the spell's visual. The exterior part can be faint just to show the AOE size.

    Other than that I like the direction of the mage. The movement while casting and the pacing of combat seems spot on.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    The mage looks like it will satisfy mage players and also people that want to try unique builds. They hit the spot when it comes to the class identity.

    When I saw the shell icon I told my self "not eso all over again with these damn mages..." but then I noticed the cooldowns and I felt relief. They are on the right path with their combat design.

    Good job devs. I hope you can treat the rest of the classes with the same respect when it comes to bringing out their identity, especially the fighter, which needs nice animations with various melee weapons to achieve this. Not magic yellow hammers.
  • BladedanceBladedance Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited April 28
    The Mage class shown, severely lacks mobility. The abilities are fine but if a dodge or additional meaningful mobility was added in then the mage would be epic. As the current iteration sits, it is lack luster at best, for action combat. Even just adding directional moves on top combat spells that would allow the caster to move in at a "meaningful speed" would be good. This would help for damage avoidance in PVE as well as PVP. There's nothing worse than doing your favorite cool looking spell while someone is slicing and dicing you while you're waiting for the animation to finish.

    Also, if you keep long animations the damage done should be chunkier this keeps the risk vs reward aspect in place.
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