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[Feedback Request] Alpha Two Mage Updates Shown in the April Livestream

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    Hello there, I can tell, you clearly played WoW mage, so I do not have to point out anything there, you pretty much nailed it perfectly, I even feel kinda nostalgic when seeing some of the most enjoyable abilities reworked in the newer game.
    However, I think you should not just rework the best of them each time, try to iterate on them a little bit, with nowadays technology you can do what Blizzard devs didn't even try to imagine.
    I'm an ex-mage player, before I swapped to rogue (which I hope will see soon with true stealth!) so I might have a few suggestions to apply for this class. I think it's good to give a mage a full kit of element spells accessible and let a player choose which path or element approach will choose to develop further, but the kit should stay. In early wow PvP I used a rank 1 frost bolt to cast fast slow as fire mage, etc. There could be ways to utilize spells from other schools. But I'd love to see some even more specific iterations of this class we didn't yet have much opportunity to play in games in general. I know it's a risky approach with new stuff but just imagine it with me.

    1st example:
    I always LOVED how Gandalf is fighting, I really wanna see a mage with a staff and Sword combo utilizing both on the field at very close range with spells just supporting his melee combat, blinding enemies, quick energy blasts... GO BACK TO THE SHADOWS! YOU SHALL NOT PASS!

    2nd example:
    In my opinion, there is no proper "dark mage" gameplay anywhere. So it definitely would be interesting if there are classical element paths and a dark path utilizing black and forbidden magic.
    I liked how Illidan Stormrage was utilizing his abilities in books, to literally torture stuff, so the victim was suffering in fear and pain till the very last moment and he enjoys it. Games always portray a dark mage as a warlock which is a different thing to me. If there is a forbidden magic it should also be discovered by playing, so this path perhaps could open spell by spell which each might be a long and hard completing, time-consuming quest without actual quest giver and helping markers, directions, etc. Just figure it out in-game yourself.
    I imagine these "black magic spells" to be just additions to the existing (perhaps frost) kit chosen by the player before, it could even be just animation changes I don't mind, but I'd really want something to develop and shape somehow myself. Imagine later in the game you see a mage player on the battlefield and instead of some burning effect a shadowy hand will appear and starts grasping you so you start losing your health like you are drowning etc.

    3rd example:
    Imagine that mana-shield of yours that just blocks damage could be developed into a kinda main combat thing that has a "shape" perhaps a "spectral knight armor" instead of just a bubble will appear and the player will be inside this spectral armor and become a melee fighter dealing magical damage instead etc, perhaps even be even become an off-tank for few second in dangerous situations or block just one big hit that tank would not survive, etc.

    you can also iterate on spells individually. I mean is there a reason for spells not to do anything while casting, or if not cast properly to the end as expected? Not every spell should have such effects but imagine some big spell that needs to accumulate for like 5 seconds without moving with like 3 minutes cooldown, there perhaps could be sparks of unbound energy when melee is hitting the caster, and if someone presses some big damage to it, the spell might have a chance to break and knock everyone 10 meters around including the mage with everyone affected losing a portion of health due to badly handled cast. Would be also nice to give the mage some "mini-game" into these situations perhaps "press X" to handle the energy without losing it to the mentioned breakpoint etc. Or when generating that "ball of energy" traveling forward, that could perhaps just be released smaller with less damage if not cast whole and yet took the whole cooldown or just a portion of it to scramble the PVP gameplay. Or even regular bolts, make most of them castable while moving but with a lot of downgrades, perhaps if moving the spell might have a bigger chance to miss, or do less damage. The more unpredictable it is the more fun it will be because everyone is cheating in a way, and everyone counting enemy cooldowns, etc and that's not that healthy (to me at least). Would be nice to manipulate things more, which is basically the origin of this class.

    These are things I want to see in nowadays games. Otherwise nice, work I like it just how like I liked the WoW mage before, now put some of yourself into it...
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    arkileoarkileo Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    It looked far more interesting than many mage experiences in other games. The rotational complexity is fantastic for keeping the game engaging. It would be cool if the 'best' rotations branched depending on the encounter, requiring a little extra thought and skill expression.

    Being able to move while casting is a great way to add agency. Being rooted creates feelings of helplessness, and while this small movement probably won't mean much in terms of survival in the grand scheme of things, it might help alleviate that feeling of helplessness

    I do think the visual clarity of the combos was lacking. It wasn't immediately obvious when it happened or what happened without looking at the NPC's status effects.
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    SjeldenSjelden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Great stream, and fantastic job on the Mage archetype. I am simply blown away!

    As for your questions;

    How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far?
    It looks amazing. You knocked this one out of the park. And I really liked the fact you brought earth into the element-family. Not many MMO's tend to do that. I am really looking forward to see the rest of the abilities for the mage, and even more existed for the other archetypes.

    How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural?
    I was initially against moving during casting, as this blurs the line between archery and spellcasting, but the extremely limited movement speed during casting looks great, and looks like it will enhance a spell casting class more than rooted abilities. Great decision and solution!

    How do you feel about the transitions between spells? Does this feel natural to you?
    Hard to determine from simply viewing, but looks ok. Can spells be queued? I like the ability to queue one, but not more.

    How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right?
    It looks just right. The more synergies, and complex archetype group effects that can be activated through good coperative gameplay, the better, but for a solo situation, it looks good.

    What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Mage Archetype?
    My significant others favorite class, and she looks extremely happy. Happy wife, happy life. This exites me lots.

    What are your favorite Mage archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
    1. Wizard from Everquest with the range of spells (bolts, instant hit, strikes, target aoe rain spells).
    2. Nano-Technitian in Anarchy Online, with the high risk, high reward unstable aoe spells.

    But to be fair, this looks vastly better.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Mage Archetype?
    The mage showcase makes the melee classes look almost dull.
    Also, the previous four showcases (priest, ranger, tank, fighter) could really be re-done using this format. It gave a really good presentation at what kind of gameplay experience we might expect from the archetype.

    Now please, please, show us the bard and summoner.

    All in all - awesome job. I am exited for the future of this project.
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    Visiual feed back on shell - I think if it faded over say 1 second instead of the spell effect disappearing instantly it be better, small detail but quick change and i think visually it improve.
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    AlusiAlusi Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited April 2023
    I agree about the comments made around the simplicity of tab targeting as opposed to action (cursor) targeting.
    If caster classes have full movement while being able to tab target and require no aiming of their shots then playing any melee class will be considerably more difficult than a caster.
    I played Age of Conan from 2008 and on and off still playing it. For a long time the game became known as Age of Casters in pvp because of in large part this design.
    I think there has to be a big trade off between dps/movement and Tab/action targeting. So for example if you have easy targeting as a caster through tab targeting you get reduced dps and/or movement perhaps?
    I still think the choice to have both is great but there must be consequences to this choice (balance) or everyone will just pick the meta option.
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    GafGaf Member
    Hire the vfx-designer from Lost Ark, done.
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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited April 2023
    How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far?
    Overall I like it! Great progress, and in the right direction I think.

    How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural?
    I definitely want to move while casting, yes. Perhaps even increase the speed a little bit? Being slowed is fine and necessary for some spells at least, but a little faster while doing the blizzard, for example, would be ok.

    How do you feel about the transitions between spells? Does this feel natural to you?
    I didn't notice anything bad or jarring during the stream, so in that sense I think they are good. Maybe if I sat down and analyzed each frame I could find faults. Overall I think it looked fluid at a first glance :smile:

    How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right?
    I am really happy this is the direction you are going with. I like the combo effect style in other games as well. B)

    Once we get the full skillset and kit and know all the combinations we can do with other classes we'll know more, but if you are doing this for all classes, the potential depth and complexity could be amazing. This is the type of skill ceiling I want to reach for rather than fast reaction times and twitchy play. Optimizing combat through clever use of synergies is much better IMO.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Mage Archetype?
    Assuming you are going for this type of combo/rotation complexity and depth for all classes, and assuming synergies between classes is greater than whatever combos each class can bring on their own, this really incentivizes having a static group over random PUGs. A well-tuned group that communicates well is always going to beat a PUG, other things being equal, but I think it's further amplified with this combat direction. It's not just about individual performances, it's about really working together.

    It reminds me a little of the DAoC days with the 8-man roaming groups in the frontier. You could roam with some guildies and do ok against other similar 8 mans, but once you'd run into one of those static top 8-man groups you'd end up being roflstomped, because they had a great setup and knew each other and communicated well.

    I am not saying this because the combat reminds me of DAoC at all; it doesn't. But I can see this direction put a focus on forming a good static group and learning to become better with that group, instead of only becoming better individually. I like and want that for Ashes.

    A note on spell effects.
    I love where you already are with the lightning effects. Great job so far, considering I am sure they'll be polished further. However, the ice ones seemed a little lacking. Specifically the ground effects of the frost cone and the blizzard seems flat and clearly imposed on the ground in a way that doesn't look very natural. I don't know the lingo for it, but they need some pizzazz (that sounds like a technical term :p ) Edit: Maybe it's the way it blends with the ground. Either too much or too little. Either way, it was the only thing I really noticed I thought was off.

    Other.
    Also, holy shit, if we can get a kit to run around in plate armor and be a melee battle mage, I would be over the moon!
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    How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far?
    I'm honestly impressed considering the state of the game and how much love and effort put into this. Honestly the Mage is the first class going into the right direction from my perspective. i think the tank was okay'ish and the cleric is going in the wrong direction from what i've seen.
    How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural?
    This was one of the most important parts about the mage because it causes a problem in balancing if melee's tradionally be able to use anything on the run and beat the hell out of the mage while the mage needs to find very tiny timeframes to release his nukes without getting chopped down by the melee train. I really enjoyed the part where u don't have to end the cast and u still deal damage just less. Obviously not for all abilities but for some is a really great decision. The blizzard movement penalty looked a tiny bit too much but with like 10 or 20% more movement i'd say that's on spot but that totally depends on the amount of snares/roots you guys plan to spread across the other classes. So overall the feeling from just watching this was pretty good.
    How do you feel about the transitions between spells? Does this feel natural to you?
    This was another very important part i was concerned about and before saying anything about it big shout out to the team you're doing a fantastic job considering so many aspects designing the combat system. The transition in new generation mmorpg's has to be smooth as butter. Every die hard mmorpg gamer hates animation lock. If you constantly get the feeling not being able to control your character properly because lacking responsiveness or have to consider the delay in when you're able to move/cancel or start an attack is gross. It's very hard to tell if it feels natural not being able to see the input from keyboard or mouse while you guys were playing but from just watching it was a pretty responsive feeling i'd say.
    How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right?
    I think it's quiet good considering that we haven't seen the firespells. Looks like an easy to play / hard to master class if you keep the status effect importance into account. So overall i like the way the mage is going right now. Can't say anything about the rotation because it highly depends on the situation you're dealing with but from what choices are given i really like the possible rotations.
    What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Mage Archetype?
    The most exciting part for me will be playing with my best friend which is playing main mage in every mmorpg being able to rely on his abilities to control the battlefield and mitigate most of his incoming damage if played flawless. Him playing on the edge with his life and me being able to create opportunities and buy him time to blast the heck out of our enemies. I really hope there will be great cross-class interactions that make teamplay feel really rewarding.
    What are your favorite Mage archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
    I'd probably just state the obvious here but i really enjoy the mage trinity of fire,frost and third (arcane,blood,darkmagic etc.). I really enjoy the aspect of mages being able to transform their enemies for a short amount of time like into sheeps,cats,pigs etc. That's just funny you guys might find something similar to add to the mage that's bullying the enemy and is also funny at the same time. Maybe something unique.
    Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Mage Archetype?
    I can only repeat myself and say you're doing a fantastic job so far and the only thing that came up my mind is that the status effect conditions needs to be better visually presented for your team mates and enemies to react. There is nothing more anoying to count stacks under health bars to act/react. If you can make it visually noticeable it will feel more natural and the combat will feel smooth and more enjoyable for everyone. Because the enemy know he is in trouble and I know that's my time to strike. I know that's a tough one but i'm faithful you guys can handle without bursting the screen into rainbow colors.
    Beyond that i also wanted to mention the tech regarding the projectile physics and line of sight and the correlated abilities that can shoot around those is truly amazing and revolutionary for the mmorpg genre and i really hope you guys extend and harden this system it's awesome and will create a more dynamic combat.
    Big shout out to all teams working on the mage this is by far the best class preview shown so far i hope you rework the cleric because i really dislike almost the entire kit. It looks unrewarding and boring to keep people alive you can do it better as we have seen now.

    Sorry for my bad english and much Love.
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    peksipeksi Member
    If I decide to concentrate only on certain element, like fire, there should be possibility to go deeper into fire magic. So it is a real alternative to mixed elements and NOT a half mage as I understood from Stevens words. If I concentrate only to certain elements I get access to something I would not have when mastering multiple elements.
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    SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The mage is almost as good as the ranger. Though the mage has more scope. I still don't like the showcase mobs. I believe the mage would die to a ranged mob. Also, the spells were really good but very slow in some cases. I'm not sure how fast paced the game will be. Sometimes we get lost in the dazzle but lose to the distractions.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
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    peksipeksi Member
    One more on top of wish list: knockback on the receiving end of projectile spell. This makes a great effect, improves immersion as well as combat satisfaction. It is a feedback you can see immediately and gives you a sensation of fighting.
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    SpifSpif Member
    edited April 2023
    How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far?

    Glad that Blink and Shield are part of the core kit. Also like the multi-weapon playstyle. Fire, Ice, Lightning and Arcane are good staples for an elemental themed mage.

    How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural?

    It's a must have IMO. I'd also like to see passives that increase the speed at which you can move while casting. But this shouldn't bring you close to non-casting speed.

    How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right?

    The stacking system is good, and the dual-element burst is good. It looks like the Shatter window is pretty tight, if you only have 3-5 seconds to shatter, and cast times are 2s. I don't know if they talked about it, but it looks like there's a target-based cooldown on Shattered so you can't just chain-shatter. That's good.

    I'd like to see a "consume stacks" mechanic for all elemental stacks. Not necessarily for more damage, but that would be ok too. Maybe an arcane spell that consumes debuff stacks to gain buffs or mana? IE, cast consume on a mob and you get x mana for each chill stack, get 1s of speed buff for each electric stack and deal x damage for each fire/burning stack. All stacks removed. If you can cast it on friendlies (no damage), even better

    What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Mage Archetype?

    I particularly enjoy mage as a high mobility ranged DPS with control options. Hopefully the AoC mage will have self (or group) speed buff options to go with Blink. I don't particularly like playing the high DPS glass cannon though. I prefer to play against that kind of mage.

    What are your favorite Mage archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
    • ESO sorc was a favorite. Although the balance issues with no cooldowns for streak/blink and shield were a problem. AE CC via streak, procs for frags, stacking AEs with destro staff, high mobility and emergency shields worked together very well.
    • DAOC I played PBAE mages (mostly enchanter). But the jack-of-all-trades sorc was very good.
    • Wow Frost Mage was a favorite in classic, but tough to play.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Mage Archetype?

    If mage/rogue gets some kind of stealth/invisibility options, that would make this my main class.

    What's the situation with spell interrupts? Can damage interrupt or slow the casting of a spell? Will there be special abilities that can interrupt casting completely or set back the cast bar? I'm assuming that stuns and knockdowns will interrupt casting. This is an important question for 3-4 classes.

    Concerned that Slumber looks like an EZ-mode spell. Please give it a high mana cost.
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    VoeltzVoeltz Member
    edited April 2023
    This has been the best combat showcase so far. It's a relief to say I liked the spell effects for the most part this time around, particularly the lightning ones. Visual clarity has been significantly improved while being appealing to look at. I appreciate you guys finally addressing that, as it was hard to give proper feedback on the rest of combat without being able to see it due to VFX. I'm hoping this translates to all the other class showcases we've seen and the VFX for their abilities are adjusted accordingly.

    The auto attacks with the wand were great, also the arcane volley. The lightning abilities look excellent visually, although the electrical flash that goes off on enemies when they were hit with the greatsword is still very bright and blinding at times. The frost spells and teleport still need some work though. For Blizzard, I'd like to see each projectile explode on impact with frost radiating outwards, doing extra damage and creating a more defined cold spot on the ground. It would look better visually and help the ability feel more impactful. As for Cone of Cold, this doesn't need to be anything more than a frontal cone frost blast. The ice crystals look out of place on this ability and they could probably be adapted into their own skill. Call it field of Ice or shatter. As for teleport, the purple orb and cloud are a bit much for this spell. This kind of spell doesn't need to be overly flashy either. Maybe remove the orb and/or add transparency to the effects to help tone it down and provide more visual clarity like the others. Similar to the wand's auto attacks, I would like to see elemental empowerment used with melee weapons visually enchant the weapon with the element that was last used for the duration, whether that be lightning, fire, ice, etc.

    I love how you can arc abilities around terrain. I think that's a nice touch that I really haven't seen in a game before which could create interesting combat situations. I think this also has potential for other non magical class skills like a boomerang or weapon throw type ability. Though It does make me wonder if the spell will still go off and track the target if the user is looking away from the target or in the opposite direction. I liked the mix of abilities that can be used on the move and more powerful charge ups that slow you down significantly or force you to stand still while channeling. This is very important from a balance standpoint. Ranged classes that are too mobile are ALWAYS overpowered.

    I am also concerned with 90% of skills being tab target and not enough skill shots. It's misleading to call this a 'hybrid' system when nearly everything does the aiming for you. I'm still failing to see the point in the "action combat mode" when the clear advantage will be to use tab target and not have to worry about aiming at all. Makes me wonder why it wasn't demonstrated in this showcase, probably because it is just an afterthought and an attempt to appease action combat fans.

    I was hoping as a Mage you would need to spec into a school of magic rather than being a master of all from the beginning. This reminds me very much of the Elementalist from Guild Wars 2 where you can use any school of magic at any time. To me, Mages are more compelling when they are specialized, like a Fire Mage, Ice Mage, or Lightning Mage. I don't like the idea of everyone being the same type of Mage that has everything. It feels like there will be nothing to distinguish them between the other Mages. It kills the sense of uniqueness between players/builds, and removes a big piece of their identity. Hopefully it will be encouraged to specialize in particular schools of magic rather than being a Mage that casts a blizzard, fire nova and lightning strike all in the same rotation.
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    LeonerdoLeonerdo Member
    edited April 2023
    I think most of what was shown is excellent already, so this feedback is going to be somewhat light.

    I really liked the little bit of mobility on Blizzard. Perfect balance of keeping the Mage feeling like a slow, but powerful caster, while adding just a touch of versatility/agency during longer spellcasts like that. I can imagine it will help a lot with dungeon pulls where the tank is moving mobs around a little bit and you're trying to stay near them all. But it's still a very slow movement, making it a risk during PvP or in boss fights where you need to dodge stuff.

    I do have a concern/suggestion about moving while casting though, because I am VERY used to cancelling spells by tapping a movement key. So it looks like I just wouldn't be able to cancel Blizzard without dodging. I would really rather not devote an extra key bind just to be able to cancel certain spells. I'd prefer if spells-with-movement either 1) continue casting as long as you hold the button and stop when you release or 2) cancel as soon as you hit another action (unless it's within the action-buffer window at the end of a cast). This is really more of a concern for when I'm healing, so I can cancel a damage spell to respond to a healing emergency, but I figure it would be useful for all casters.

    I'm impressed with the arcing tech used on chain lightning, and I'm interested in seeing how impactful that ends up being in Alpha 2. Slightly worried that it'll be OP in PvP, being able to attack from behind cover, but we'll see. I think it's something we really have to get our hands on to understand fully.

    The elemental combos and procs look like a very solid basis for the rotational gameplay of the Mage. I'm a fan of builder/spender gameplay and the stacking elements seem like a great use of that paradigm to keep Mage flowing smoothly; it makes it so there's not too much switching between elements constantly, because you have to build one up first.

    A lot of people are talking about visual clarity and how big the particle effects are, but I think it's honestly very close to perfect in this iteration. The lightning ball is maybe a bit too much, given it's AoE and long duration, though.

    Overall, looks great, no notes on the overall direction of things.
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    SongRuneSongRune Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited April 2023
    Azherae wrote: »
    What are your favorite Mage archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
    I generally do not like Mage archetypes in other MMOs because they are generally 'turrets', and Ashes of Creation is the only game I've really 'liked' that implied any actual caring about elements and their effects, enough to pay attention to them. This is particularly true for Tab Targeted games, though this isn't a problem, I don't mind this type of gameplay at all, I just don't personally think about it much.

    From Predecessor, the 'Mages' are quite fun:
    Gadget: AoE master, Denial and 'Sticky Bomb' style effects that coordinates attacks with the expected or forced positions of the opponent, but lacking CC and escapes.
    Gideon: The Standard. Blink, drop Meteors, throw Comets, big AoE (Black Hole type).
    Howitzer: If this character used flames and explosions instead of rockets and grenades they'd fit right into a standard MMO.
    The Fey: DoT and Area Control, pushing and pulling targets and stacking damage that way.

    To expand on this, as the The Fey player, here are some ability combinations I appreciate:

    One of my preferred ways to build magical power is Dreambinder, which has a Chilling Strikes attribute: "Damaging abilities Slow affected Units by 25% for 1s."
    The Fey has the Untamed Growth ability, which places a circular DoT template on the ground for 2.5s. This is my primary damage ability under most normal circumstances. Adding Dreambinder makes this damage ability double as an escape ability, and give me another way to prevent enemies from escaping my party in a teamfight. Because it is an templated AoE DoT, it becomes area denial. The DoT itself isn't nothing, exactly, but with Dreambinder, anyone who wants to chase me (or escape) through that space at has to proc Chilling Strikes) and get Slowed.
    I have another Bramble Patch ability which places a linear template for 5s with a Slow effect, but in a teamfight, one of my goals is to do damage, but my main personal desire is to keep the enemy from escaping (or engaging) my teammates. Turning my "sure you take some damage moving through here" (or, also, my 'sniper shot') into "you can't escape the Tank/DD pursuing you" gives me a lot more power to control the flow of a fight, in terms of engages, escapes, and pursuit.

    One of the primary recommended build components for The Fey in her natural role is Megacosm, which has two special attributes: Disintegrate: "Dealing damage to an Enemy Target with an ability deals 4% of their maximum health as magical damage over 3s" and Atomize: "Damaging an enemy hero affected by Disintegrate with an ability deals an additional 5% of their maximum health as magical damage - 8s CD."
    It's a good choice for damage. That Untamed Growth template AoE DoT ticks something like every quarter second. If you build Megacosm, anyone who ends up in it is almost assured to take 9% HP. Only once per cast given the cooldowns and durations, but that's definitely not nothing.

    If you can get people to stick around in your Untamed Growth radius, perhaps by use of your Fly Trap Ultimate ability (AoE templated draw in and stun), or simply because their character/class needs to be standing in a specific area to be maximally effective, however, try out Void Crystal's Fiend effect: "Dealing magical damage to an Enemy Hero increases your magical damage dealt by 3% for 5s, stacking up to 4 times". Your enemy has the choice(?) of not standing where their character wants to, or eating bonus damage.

    Depending on the enemy team composition, later in the game, you can find me specing into Wraith Leggings for their Spectre effect: "Dealing damage to an Enemy Hero with an ability grants 100 movement speed for 1.5s." To me, this is another step toward the pinnacle of "you shall not escape my team". I can keep up with someone who's getting away, to either secure a kill, or drop more Slow effects on them once they've cooled down. It serves the double purpose, however, as with Dreambinder of helping me escape in the equivalent situation.

    Another go-to for me, (at least as 'interesting interactions' go), in the earlier phase of the match is Spellbreaker, with its Veil "Grants a Spell Shield that blocks the next Enemy ability - 60s CD." and Malefic: "Gain 20% increased magical power while Veil is active." This doesn't interact with any of my abilities directly, but for a mage like The Fey, this is great. Since I get my primary 'nukes'/output at range, I'm never standing in a position where you can hit me and my adds at the same time, so my opponents have to choose to waste one of their abilities to break my shield, or simply let me nuke down their own adds that much faster. It's a lose-lose situation for them, where the worst case for me is that I get knocked back down to... oh no... full power? This also has the arguably more useful effect that people can't leave me alone to go harass my teammates in the midgame. That extra 20% bumps me up to the point where I have the ability to clear waves almost effortlessly, without wasting extra mana or time. Leave me alone too long, and you're going to lose objectives.

    Anyway, there's a bunch more, with more subtle interactions (or interactions between multiple build choices), but some of those, particularly the defensive ones, are less interesting outside the context of the game itself. Hope it helps!

    "The Fly Trap is ready."
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    WestergardWestergard Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited April 2023
    How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far?
    Sadly, incredibly disappointed. The Mage Archetype feels like five steps backward from the greatsword / dagger preview and three steps from the bow preview. The only thing I enjoyed from the preview was arcing projectiles moving around objects/obstacles in some cases and the fidelity of the art for the spells.

    Leaning THIS HARD into tab targeting in a 2023 mmorpg feels like an incredible disservice to Ashes and mmorpgs in general to me. It's a leap in the wrong direction. Especially when you advertise Ashes as having a hybrid combat system and then not show it in a Class preview. My feedback and dispapointment comes from a place of passion. Someone only barely interested in Ashes will look at the preview and see a disappointing 2000s tab target mmorpg with better graphics and write the game off entirely. Where is the action combat, where are the skill shots? Please show them to your fans!


    How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural?
    It's not enough. Mage combat should look like this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO4nXXTaCEU&ab_channel=JabaPlay
    If I wanted to play a tab target mmorpg I'd go back and torture my soul by playing WoW/FFXIV.
    Moving while casting should be on ALL spells and specs for mages EXCEPT for their capstone abilities.
    Meteor Storm, Mass Healing, Revive, Cloudkill. Abilities like these should have a trade off like rooting the mage. It makes sense to enforce some kind of penalty for the incredible reward that finishing their cast brings. Casting an ordinary frostbolt should not be penalized by having to stand still. It's already punishing enough that someone can kick you in the teeth and your cast stops right there. Better yet, make frost bolt an at will ability like a melee uses their basic attack. Mages are already giving up heavy armor and usually have a low health pool. Why punish them with boring stand still to cast abilities on top of that?

    How do you feel about the transitions between spells? Does this feel natural to you?
    It's not fluid enough, too much waiting, too much standing around, too much tab target.

    How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right?
    l7adw86y5q07.png
    Please make it more complex. I don't want to have to put this one down again like WoW (vanilla).
    There's no decision making at all like this, just press a button and go make a sandwich. Press a new button when the cast ends. Please look at hybrid combat mmorpgs like GW2.

    What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Mage Archetype?
    A mage or wizard should be incredibly exciting to play. What school of magic do they favour, what kind of spells are their forte? Are they mobile? Did they sacrifice damage for utility? Do they summon elemental magic or arcane? Are you prepared to counter them when they blink in rapid succession or place walls of flame on the battlefield?

    A mage in your party should be an absolute powerhouse of utility of offensive portal magic, battle field control through ice fields, difficult terrain with earth magic, walls of flame and earth to force enemies to take another route. Or an offensive hypermobile but squishie caster that carves deep into your enemies while you support them with shield and arrow.

    What are your favorite Mage archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
    Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Mage Archetype?


    My favourite mage archetypes in other games are obviously the video I showed above.
    The mage in that game is hypermobile, has access to so many different spells and most of all they are not a boring tedious rooted caster.

    The best version of a mage archetype in an mmorpg is definitely GW2 for me in its elementalist.
    Especially the subclasses of Tempest and Weaver. Both subclasses have incredible mobility, can move while casting, have access to shield bubble (arcane shield) and in both cases their strong abilities aren't limited by forcing them to stand still but instead require timing or rotational complexity to get the most out of them. (Overloading or Weave Self).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQH22obsdhM&ab_channel=GuildWars2

    Even at its base form the elementalist can cast any spell while moving EXCEPT for Meteor Storm which at its time was/is their strongest aoe spell.

    GW2s hybrid combat is the best in the genre for me, the active blocking and dodge rolling, the rock paper scissors design to class kits, the mobility while performing your role as a dps/heal/support, the skill shots. The only time you stand still in GW2 is when someone rooted you through a cc ability or when you are casting a capstone ability of your role (massive heal, strong cc, big heal).
    They don't punish you by forcing you into cast bars that you have to stand still for and staccato movement, they instead make you pick between damage or healing or surviveability or movement or utility. And when an ability has a cast time you can generally move while channeling it. It punishes players who are bad or don't use interrupts and it rewards mages who know how to keep away or use LoS or other tools at their disposal. They don't double or triple dip on class weaknesses. Elementalits have low base health and that's the trade off for their incredible utility if they choose to wield it over their healing or damage potential. You give something up to gain something else. Choices, not punishments for picking the mage class!

    The only thing that I'm excited for atm based on the mage preview is the slight tiny hope that secondary classes and feedback will fix it throughout the alpha/beta process.
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    OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2023
    I thought it looked really good. The direction of mage overall looks great. I like the abilities themselves and the synergies. I'd like to see more synergies when more skills are revealed from other mage builds using different elemental trees. And I'd like them to have different use cases situationally. Different pros and cons.

    The spell effects were a lot better. They made sense more with the class, as opposed to some of the other classes showcased where it just looked like a random light show. When everything is flashy, nothing is flashy. I'd still personally turn them down for my own use with a graphics slider. But they were a lot better.

    This combat in general looks like what I'd call tab enhanced. I like tab and action. I probably prefer tab a bit more in general and especially for large scale pvp mmos like Ashes. With that said, I don't understand fully what the point of the reticle targeting action camera is. For people who prefer action, I'd imagine they don't understand it even more. Or maybe they don't care. But I'm curious to know what it's purpose is exactly. If it's at a disadvantage competitively, is it just for fun? Or will there be specific use cases for it? Just a secondary option to do sometimes?

    I liked being able to move while casting. I like that direction. I'd have to play it to really feel it though.
    Transitions looked good to me.
    Rotational complexity looked fine and on the right track but I of course would expect it to be more complex on a fully fleshed out mage.

    Edit: Just a little more critique. The electric spell effects look better than the ice effects. The electric ones look more real. The ice ones look more decal-y, fake, cartoony. The blizzard effect in particular looks kind of generic and cartoony. Which is not to say the ice spells look bad. I said the electric spells look better. Not that the ice ones look bad. But I think the ice ones could look a bit better themselves. I realize this is all first pass/second pass stuff, just critique.

    The skill elemental empowerment was described as a self buff that lasted for 5 seconds. ESO had a lot of those types of skills when I played it. The class and build that I played had two self buffs that I had to constantly recast on myself. I think one I had to recast every 10 seconds or so and the other every 20. You can imagine how irritating this gets over the course of months of playing. The fact that I had to constantly swap weapon bars to recast buffs made it even worse. What at first felt like, oh cool this adds a little skill gap in the form of forcing actions per minute (APM), ultimately became an aggravating chore. I mean it was just constant. My class was dependent on having these buffs up at all times. It's not skill keeping the buffs up, it's repetitive busy work. And I had to keep them up by default, not situationally.

    In the case of elemental empowerment, it seems more situational, as in right before you do wand basic attacks. I think there is room for some skills like these. But I would be cautious about adding too many of them to the game. It is known as one of the more aggravating parts of ESO combat amongst the people I've seen talk about it.

    Another edit: It occured to me that you all spent more time zoomed out in the mage showcase than in in the other showcases where more time was spent zoomed in. I think at least, not going back to check the videos. But that does probably have an effect on why I liked the spell effects more in this mage showcase - they weren't in my face as much. Either way, still liked them more.

    And I have to give a shoutout to the cows and sheep. Same principle as I said above, when everything is flashy, nothing is flashy. I appreciated the very beautiful, but very normal looking cows and sheep. If every creature has multicolored horns and is some kind of half turtle half chimpanzee type thing, then none of them stand out, they're all just overdone high fantasy. Including regular looking creatures/mobs like these cows and sheep makes your more exotic looking mobs and creatures stand out more. When everything looks ridiculous, nothing everything looks ridiculous. When only some things look ridiculous, they're not really ridiculous anymore, they're unique and special.
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    Please add self detonation to mage, it would be insanely cool.
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    Clay_Clay_ Member
    The game looks mighty clean but the skills for mage look very underwhelming. When people think of mage they think of giga chad aoe dmg with massive animation affects that take up a good portion of your screen that make u go "wow". These skills ain't do that, they just look very basic and mid. For instance blizzard, make it BIGGER, widen range of the animation, add more affects, make it LOOK like a blizzard! Thunder strike, again, make it BIGGER, WIDEN the range of the animation, ADD more affects, MAKE IT look like a real mean thunder strike, a thunder strike so big and massive its gonna look like Zeus, or Thor himself is coming from the skies to reign upon lighting on whoever steps into the area!
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    JnxJnx Member
    This was a very good showcase. I certainly feel like I'd love to jump in and learn how to master the rotations and balance difference skills together to pump out that damage. Great visual effects, great gameplay opportunity and engaging combat. Keep going in this direction and at some point provide a talent system that will allow the players to tinker around with there favourite abilities and make their own composition too!

    I'm hoping we'll get to re visit of some other classes and see how skill progression can further player engagement and connection with the classes.

    Player agency was strong with the mage, more so then some other classes I've found.

    Transitions and visuals looked really good. (Yes get that ball lighting to fix itself in position or atleast rise and fall slower over terrain details.

    Spell complexity is on point and will keep people engaged. If anything I would go slightly more complex or the ability to go more complex for those who want to master the classes but give the average player the ability to do a good amount of damage with the exact kind of complexity we've seen in this live stream.

    Ps: Take as long as you guys need to get this stuff right.
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    SolunaSoluna Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited April 2023
    Westergard wrote: »
    How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far?
    Sadly, incredibly disappointed. The Mage Archetype feels like five steps backward from the greatsword / dagger preview and three steps from the bow preview. The only thing I enjoyed from the preview was arcing projectiles moving around objects/obstacles in some cases and the fidelity of the art for the spells.

    Leaning THIS HARD into tab targeting in a 2023 mmorpg feels like an incredible disservice to Ashes and mmorpgs in general to me. It's a leap in the wrong direction. Especially when you advertise Ashes as having a hybrid combat system and then not show it in a Class preview. My feedback and dispapointment comes from a place of passion. Someone only barely interested in Ashes will look at the preview and see a disappointing 2000s tab target mmorpg with better graphics and write the game off entirely. Where is the action combat, where are the skill shots? Please show them to your fans!


    How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural?
    It's not enough. Mage combat should look like this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO4nXXTaCEU&ab_channel=JabaPlay
    If I wanted to play a tab target mmorpg I'd go back and torture my soul by playing WoW/FFXIV.
    Moving while casting should be on ALL spells and specs for mages EXCEPT for their capstone abilities.
    Meteor Storm, Mass Healing, Revive, Cloudkill. Abilities like these should have a trade off like rooting the mage. It makes sense to enforce some kind of penalty for the incredible reward that finishing their cast brings. Casting an ordinary frostbolt should not be penalized by having to stand still. It's already punishing enough that someone can kick you in the teeth and your cast stops right there. Better yet, make frost bolt an at will ability like a melee uses their basic attack. Mages are already giving up heavy armor and usually have a low health pool. Why punish them with boring stand still to cast abilities on top of that?

    How do you feel about the transitions between spells? Does this feel natural to you?
    It's not fluid enough, too much waiting, too much standing around, too much tab target.

    How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right?
    l7adw86y5q07.png
    Please make it more complex. I don't want to have to put this one down again like WoW (vanilla).
    There's no decision making at all like this, just press a button and go make a sandwich. Press a new button when the cast ends. Please look at hybrid combat mmorpgs like GW2.

    What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Mage Archetype?
    A mage or wizard should be incredibly exciting to play. What school of magic do they favour, what kind of spells are their forte? Are they mobile? Did they sacrifice damage for utility? Do they summon elemental magic or arcane? Are you prepared to counter them when they blink in rapid succession or place walls of flame on the battlefield?

    A mage in your party should be an absolute powerhouse of utility of offensive portal magic, battle field control through ice fields, difficult terrain with earth magic, walls of flame and earth to force enemies to take another route. Or an offensive hypermobile but squishie caster that carves deep into your enemies while you support them with shield and arrow.

    What are your favorite Mage archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
    Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Mage Archetype?


    My favourite mage archetypes in other games are obviously the video I showed above.
    The mage in that game is hypermobile, has access to so many different spells and most of all they are not a boring tedious rooted caster.

    The best version of a mage archetype in an mmorpg is definitely GW2 for me in its elementalist.
    Especially the subclasses of Tempest and Weaver. Both subclasses have incredible mobility, can move while casting, have access to shield bubble (arcane shield) and in both cases their strong abilities aren't limited by forcing them to stand still but instead require timing or rotational complexity to get the most out of them. (Overloading or Weave Self).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQH22obsdhM&ab_channel=GuildWars2

    Even at its base form the elementalist can cast any spell while moving EXCEPT for Meteor Storm which at its time was/is their strongest aoe spell.

    GW2s hybrid combat is the best in the genre for me, the active blocking and dodge rolling, the rock paper scissors design to class kits, the mobility while performing your role as a dps/heal/support, the skill shots. The only time you stand still in GW2 is when someone rooted you through a cc ability or when you are casting a capstone ability of your role (massive heal, strong cc, big heal).
    They don't punish you by forcing you into cast bars that you have to stand still for and staccato movement, they instead make you pick between damage or healing or surviveability or movement or utility. And when an ability has a cast time you can generally move while channeling it. It punishes players who are bad or don't use interrupts and it rewards mages who know how to keep away or use LoS or other tools at their disposal. They don't double or triple dip on class weaknesses. Elementalits have low base health and that's the trade off for their incredible utility if they choose to wield it over their healing or damage potential. You give something up to gain something else. Choices, not punishments for picking the mage class!

    The only thing that I'm excited for atm based on the mage preview is the slight tiny hope that secondary classes and feedback will fix it throughout the alpha/beta process.

    I couldn´t agree more with everything you wrote!! As someone who has been playing mmorpgs for more than 20 years now I´ve played mages in many different mmorpgs but this demo was really underwhelming to me... Most of the abilities they showed (except for Blizzard) would probably be lvl 1-20 abilities in other mmorpgs so I really hope that they actually look better in lategame.

    I didn´t like that "Ball Lightning" skill at all.. Although the animations look good imo the ball is way too big and that floating animation towards the enemy looked a bit weird I´d say. I´d expect the lightning ball to fly directly towards the enemy and be smaller rather than having that huge thing roll towards the enemy. It reminded me a lot of the monster we have in Guild Wars 2 but without the legs:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spark_(elemental)

    What I don´t really understand in general when it comes to animations is: You´re showing a mage here and my expectations were pretty high for great spell effects but some of the ones here looked like some standard effects you could maybe even buy from the Unreal marketplace. The lightning strike for example is so minimalistic that I can´t understand that long cast time for the spell.

    What I´d love to see in general when it comes to animations for the game (at least in lategame!) is much more variety and less of those basic "lightning strike" skills. Just like already mentioned by @Westergard Guild Wars 2 has a nice variety of skills for the mage class. There are so many options for skills that you could add to the mage:

    - ground AoE with fire, ice, etc.
    - meteor storms, tornadoes, etc. if you wanna add some heavy spells with casting time
    - static fields that can maybe paralize enemies for a short duration
    - put an enemy in an ice crystal temporarily as some kind of stun-effect
    - etc. etc.. there are SO many possibilities for skills, not only for the mage.

    This guy here showed some spells from Dragon's Dogma:
    https://youtu.be/NuDZSJkeuDU?t=704

    Imo that´s how mage spells should look like (just as an inspiration ofc).

    And for the skills like the "Shell" I could also see a more fancy visual effect here. Even if it´s just a shield. The simple egg shell is a bit underwhelming, too imo. Maybe make it animated a little bit at least or (since the mage has other elemental skills, too) make it be an earth shield with stones, etc...


    I know that everything is work in progress but a few things I mentioned in this comment pretty much apply to all the classes in the game. And as someone who has actively been supporting the game since kickstarter already I definitely want the game to succeed and some things I wrote may even sound harsher than I wanted :yum: . The environment looks gorgeous imo but the combat and the spell effects have always been my biggest concern for this game and still are.

    edit: because I just read the comment from @Nerror below I´d like to add that I don´t necessarily want the skills to look bigger or more massive. I´m mostly talking about how they look like.
    For example the basic looking cleric whip skill that we had in the last alpha could probably easily be replaced with a more fancy looking one like for example a whip with electricity just like shown in the Dragon's Dogma gameplay in the video above. That´s just one example of how they could make skills look a lot more interesting. Same with the egg shell shield.
    Soluna_signature.png
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    everything was great except blizzard casting animation. it looked weird and it seemed that your own spell would slow you down. maybe don't make the character float while channeling / casting
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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    For those of you wanting bigger spell effects, remember we'll be getting battles with 100+ mages sometimes, if things go according to plan. Sometimes with all being within visual distance of you.

    Even with sliders to reduce the effects, that's a lot of flash on the screen. Culling, as in completely removing spell effects at a distance, can help solve that, but that also greatly takes away from the visuals of the battle as a whole, and it makes it hard to see what's actually going on. That affects strategy and tactical planning on the fly.

    I would MUCH rather they focus on making amazing, performant and minimalistic spell effects that don't obscure combat too much when 100+ mages all decide to launch their big AOEs into each other, while at the same time staying recognizable and visible from a distance.

    There has to be room for all the other ability effects and siege weapons and such from the 900 other players in the area too. Even if Intrepid can't manage 500v500, 250v250 is still going to be an ugly shitshow if the spell effects aren't minimalistic.
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    KilionKilion Member
    edited April 2023
    How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far?

    Very good, the archetype looked powerful yet not invincible or "godlike". The idea of having status effects of different elements influence each other to create rotations is also one that I really appreciate.


    How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural?

    I think its a good feature that will give a lot of depth to mage builds in terms of rotation building. We probably get more stationary backline mages, more mobile mages roaming the battlefield but keeping their distance from enemies and hyper mobile melee mages who are right in the thick of it, this variety alone will be very exciting to watch and gives tons of interesting twists to the basic archetype!


    How do you feel about the transitions between spells? Does this feel natural to you?

    With the ranged wand transitions looked fantastic, movements were fluent. I remember the one scene where the mage had their hands on the right side of his body compressing a spell into a lightning ball, extending his hands forward to release the thunderous sphere and in an almost seamless motion take them back to his left and form an Ice Bolt, that was reeeeeally satisfying to watch!

    With that being said, the animations with the 2 handed Sword weren't as good. The sword disappeared for some animations and plopped back into existence after that, so I think the animations for "proper" casting while wielding certain weapons is still missing, in battle seeing a weapon disappear on cast can be a huge indicator of whats to come, so I hope we get some smoother casting animations for that. This concern of mine extends to any weapon combination with a shield as well.



    How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right?

    I think its manageable and should be a bit challenging. Having a vast array of active skill options that combine into something greater is really what brings across this class "Intelligence Hero" type of feeling for me and challenges the player to immerse himself into the class/archetype they chose.

    Challenging in the most positive way possible.


    What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Mage Archetype?

    There are some great windows to exploit the mages weakness, rotating or not and I like that those exist because each of the windows is not just a "haha now the mage is easy to pounce at" but also a "doom timer" because they could be setting up a really nasty combo that you want to avoid.

    Playing with a mage / mage augmented class will be a parade of combo calculations in the best sense. I'd love to get together with an Ice Mage while I am swinging a lightning imbued spear or so to shatter the living poop out of everything they froze.

    And I dread tanks who decide to pick up an ice augment XD


    Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Mage Archetype?

    The status effect rotation with elemental empowerment really excites me. I really want to try out a bunch of combinations to see what can be done with those.

    My main concern remains the animations while wielding different weapons but I think thats something Intrepid can handle as far as this is in the scope of what you are planning to do.


    Please don’t feel limited by the thought starters above. Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s Alpha Two Mage Updates shown during the April Development Update

    Regarding the gliding mount mechanics: I would be happy to hear more about the base stats of mounts, as I wondered whether all mounts can be able to jump as high as the one we saw in the livestream. Maybe this has to wait till there is a general update on animal husbandry.

    Lastly I'd like to address my biggest "disappointment": The mage has been THE example till now on how augmentations will work. Not addressing that leaves us with the opportunity to speculate on how the elemental schools will transfer on other archetype skills. However I would have loved to see an example of what an augmented skill could look like before and after augmentation. Maybe 3 examples with the charged shot of the Ranger, the dome of the Tank and the chains of restraint of the Cleric. Even a statement that these are things you plan to address prior to A2 at some point in the future would have been fine, it was a bit disappointing that we received no comments in any direction towards that.

    On a scale of 1 to 10 this stream was easily a 9 out of 10, it displayed great progress and in my opinion very high quality of the development process, showing huge depth to the archetypes even without augmentations and that a great relief to me, because I was slightly worried that people might try to rush to lv 25 before the skillset mechanics turn "interesting". It became very clear that the archetype on its own would already have fun mechanics that make the first half of our level progression enjoyable and fun. Good job guys, can't wait to see more.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
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    MilosAoCMilosAoC Member
    edited April 2023
    Loved the showcase!

    The vfx for these abilities was so much better than anything previously shown.
    I think its important to remind people that one of the core components of this game is huge open world pvp battles with hundreds of players. All abilities and vfx have to be designed with this in mind. People seem to forget this and ask for more visually impactful spells, as if the game was mailny about 4 man instanced dungeons. I really hope you guys dont cave to these comments, and keep going in the direction youve shown here.

    I think the movement showcased was fine. I think it may have looked a bit more static than it was because the devs controlling the mage just didnt seem to have the skill (or adhd that most of us gamers have) to be constantly pressing movement buttons at every moment in time.

    The complexity of the class seemed good to me aswell, im sure that the complete class kit will offer plenty of interesting specs and different ways for players to make the class feel fun and unique.

    Just 1 random other thing.
    I saw some guy somewhere comment that it would be cool if you could recast the lightning orb spell for it to then change direction back towards the player. I thought this was a cool idea and wanted to just reiterate it.
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    How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far?

    -The best archetype showcase so far! It looked clean, thought out, animations were fluid, and it was nice seeing combo effects. I also thoroughly enjoyed seeing the different abilities from lightning, to blizzard, and the shell shield. I also loved seeing that there were some abilities that one can cast on the move.


    How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural?

    - I believe one should be able to cast on the move! However these abilities should only put out perhaps 25% of the damage while moving, than if the player was stationary.... again making the choice... do i move and pursue the target doing 25% damage or do I stay stationary fighting as I can? Another option would also be longer cd for the abilities that you can cast on the move. I do not think abilities where one can cast on the move should be as powerful when playing a mage.


    How do you feel about the transitions between spells? Does this feel natural to you?

    - Again I thought it was a good showcase! I do think that some abilities like that floating ball, should just fizzle out as the spell comes to a conclusion or there to be some form of explosion, as opposed to it just disappearing.


    How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right?

    -Had a decent amount of spells! Would like to see each class have a good 12-15 abilities so it is not to bland... but also not necessary for macros because there are to many spells to cast and keep track of doing ones rotation.


    Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s Alpha Two Mage Updates shown during the April Development Update

    -Glider mount shown! I like the idea of glider mounts! It is a good medium between no flying mounts and having mounts where we could just casually fly everywhere (making the world feel smaller). Please keep the range that one can glide to a minimum though, unless on some high peak and it is reasonable to clear such a distance. Gliding should not be to convenient to where people essentially are still just flying everywhere even at lower altitudes. They should be at a ledge and needing to jump off to engage said glider and have no updraft at all from a flat surface.

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    RyanTheSirenRyanTheSiren Member
    edited April 2023
    I don't like leaving negative criticism usually, especially since I almost always love everything you guys show, but I have to echo the sentiments of some others in here that I was disappointed/underwhelmed with the mage showcase as someone who has been eagerly awaiting to see what ranged magical combat looks like in Ashes :(

    I think the main issue is the lack of fluidity and player agency. Like some people above me have said, you move SO slow when casting, I think it would be nice if you had a faster movement speed when casting (obviously not full movement speed). It's 2023 and I don't want to feel like I'm playing a turret hero when I pick mage. It doesn't matter if you can move during a cast if you go like 25% move speed, at that point you're basically still rooted in place.

    I would rather be more mobile and fluid feeling than a static turret class with huge hitting spells. Maybe we can find a way to have a balance of the two playstyles in the kit?

    Something WoW mage also has that is nice is you can cast spells, blink during the cast, and it doesn't cancel the cast. This, alongside having 2 charges of Blink in WoW, makes Mage feel very fluid.

    If I am going to be locked into my position when I cast a spell, then the spell needs to feel worth it. It needs to feel extremely powerful and impactful to justify why I am being rooted in place for more than half a second.

    That's another thing I noticed, is that the cast times on the spells felt kind of dragged out and overly long. Casting a basic frost ball or lighting strike felt like it took a little too long.

    This overall kind of (sadly) felt like a step backwards from the melee weapons combat showcase and the archery showcase. I felt like those animations and movements were a lot more fluid and impactful seeming, and it makes me a bit worried for Mage.

    I understand that ranged classes need to be balanced out by not having extreme mobility but I really think, again, the following would really help make the class look and feel more engaging and fluid:

    * Slightly shorter cast time on more basic spells
    * Faster movement speed while casting spells
    * More impactful looking animations and VFX

    The ice spells especially looked visually underwhelming, I think mostly because there was only a few snowflake VFX on the ground instead of the entire swath of ground taking on a blue/chilled/icy appearance like what happens in most other games

    I'm also worried that so many people seem to be eating up this showcase and saying how good it looks. It feels like it's coming from players who don't play mage/ranged spellcaster classes in MMORPGs, or if they do they may only play very static tab target MMOs. I hope you guys keep pushing to improve the mage gameplay instead of seeing some of these positive responses and leave it generally the same, or I will probably have to end up switching my intended class :((
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    LloydLloyd Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited April 2023
    I suppose I'll be particularly harsh when it comes to my feedback just because I want this to be the best game possible, but not because I was disappointed. In fact, I think this is the best showcase of yet. Actually showing the mechanics of each class is much more important than simply running through a dungeon.

    - How do you feel about the Mage Archetype so far?
    Overall, I think it hits the baseline of what a Mage should be. Multiple elemental factors and to choose your type of playstyle and using classic DnD/Pathfinder spells. Spell animations are especially well-done as from a PvP perspective there is CLARITY in which spell is being cast prior to the spell going off to be able to react. However, it does feel like a WoW mage with upgraded graphics and spell synergy.

    It definitely feels like you can go Ice for CC, Fire for DPS, and Lightning for Attack Buff Support for your party. This is beautifully designed for being able to choose your playstyle in my opinion.

    - How do you feel about being able to move while casting spells? Do you like the agency given to you, or does it feel unnatural?
    I think there could be more mobility and fluidity with casting spells. You will make the older generations happy and nostalgic with this playstyle, but you will lose a younger audience. If you want the game to be successful long term, you'll have to give up the nostalgia of playing classic WoW.

    I would look to games like Lost Ark and League of Legends to look at mage casters and how they operate and see if you can take some of those spells/abilities to build different routes with how a mage should be played. Should they be glass cannon with high mobility? Should they be tankier with more CC? Should they be turrets that have low mobility but high damage? Should they be enchanters that buff their party? There's so much you can do with the base archetype that will supplement the class system when they travel down a specific route.

    The design seems to be pigeonholed in the first 15 levels, and not the full 50 level class system yet.

    - How do you feel about the transitions between spells? Does this feel natural to you?
    Seems a little animation locked. There's not enough fluidity between casting a full rotation. I think the hard task here is figuring out the exact timing someone might be able to animation cancel the last bit of the first animation in order to start casting the second animation.

    - How do you feel about the general or rotational complexity of the Mage Archetype? Does it feel too simple, too hard, or just right?
    The stacking abilities with chilled, shocked, and I assume to be burn are on point and not hard to understand. Maybe making the stacking have some visual clarity for the one being chilled/shocked/burned rather than just the debuff square that is happening somewhere on the player's screen.

    - What are your favorite Mage archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
    Said this earlier, but I emphasize that you should look at League of Legends characters and Lost Ark Mage classes. Mages don't have to be big bursty champions like Syndra. They can be enchanters like Janna and Sona too.

    - Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Mage Archetype?
    I'm less excited to play as a mage, but I do think that some of the capabilities shown has excited me for what a Ranger/Mage could do. Such as the Arcane shot bending around the environment. That was the most hyped thing I saw in the video. It was such a cool concept and thought that line-of-sight might be bent for PvP and PvE benefits.

    As a bonus: You should be able to complete one or two rotations to be able to kill mobs. The time to kill is way too long even if you are planning for these areas to be party/group areas where you group together to attack the things in the world. This might mean you have to make the monsters move speed faster, or their attacks hurt more or have more AoE to make sure that the players aren't just kiting everything and able to solo everything with ease, but that's okay. Having to use an eight-spell rotation four times in order to kill a group of enemies is way too long to kill.
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    Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
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    HybridSRHybridSR Member
    edited April 2023
    The mage seemed great to me. Not a mage player myself but the skills looked good. If anything I'd just like there to be impact when certain skills hit the target.

    Blizzard looked amazing IMO. The Orb was a bit weird, however. Shield skill seems incredibly good if timed correctly, but the effect looked pretty lame overall.

    Still, I thought the showcase was overall great, and casting around objects looks like something cool that could easily be important in tight spaces.

    I like the idea of long range artillery, so I'm gonna go either Ranger + Mage or Mage + Ranger depending on how augments are approached, so I'm keeping a close eye on this class even if it ends up not being my main class.
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    ZizyllZizyll Member
    edited April 2023
    Hello to the AOC Team.
    first of all, I like the Präsentation of the current Version of the mage class. The Combo system looks exciting so far. Highlighting a spell in the Skill bar that can trigger a Combo would certainly be good. But Maybe there is a Better Way to indicate this.

    Ball lightning is a interesting ability, visually i would prefer a more reserved variant. I have therefore roughly drawn a suggestion here … i hope you can understand how i imagine it.

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