This sounds like a very tab idea mind set, my voice point is strong on it being once every 5-10 seconds even if that taunt lasted one second. This sounds like one of the most unenjoyable effects I've heard of though , please don't take offense to that but that is just how i see it.
And imo that is the whole point of a taunt. It should be distracting, annoying and unpleasant. And your goal would then be to remove it instead of putting up with it.
Also, L2's aggro had a cd of 3 seconds on its effect. That's a tab effect. I adjusted that to a more actiony gameplay. Also also, if you see that you're being targeted by a tank - literally all you'd need to do is go into tab mode. Now your camera is not panning. You're still taunted, but at least you're not being disoriented. The beauty of hybrid combat system
So the point is to ruin the action camera so they have to go tab to not deal with it? do you see what the issue is here? I keep saying you are ruining the experience with a skill like that, to decide to not use it shows that is exactly the case.
Again why choose the worse possible way to do it, and not have a more organic way to taunt through smart design?
Those seem to mostly complain about the "character being pulled" part, rather than the camera. So even within the niche of a niche of a niche, there doesn't seem to be much complaining about the camera part. I'm sure there must've been at least a few people in the game's history that disliked it, but that's a minority within a minority. And, as you pointed out, we've been talking about a non-char-pull taunt, so Ashes would probably have the same kind of minority complaining about it, while you were trying to argue that the majority would complain.
I don't think this is valid (I'm unsure if they said you need one of each archtype, pretty sure they mean a mix in some variety with the different ways you can flex your class, but don't really want to get to into that that is another convo)
Why I don't think this is valid is because wars are not going to be just a one of each arch type and done. Based on the balance of the game, what is strong and what works and what you need. Armies are going to be created based off that. That was the case for NW when I was making our roster, things were not even, we had more bruisers and tanks for wars, healers, and some dmg mages. The weight of classes we had in are rooster was important and not balanced at all.
And NW barely had a trinity. And had 5-person parties. And had 0 proper supports iirc. While L2 had almost the exact same archetype composition as Ashes will.
Yes, party setups will vary and differ, but tanks would have to be absolutely fucking insanely OP for majority of parties to have 2 tanks in their setup. And imo a CC-based tank that "forces" his enemies to target him (through the usage of said CCs) would be much worse than a tank who can just directly taunt a target but not too much on top of that (outside of obvious protective abilities).
You think certain people don't get focused in wars even with everything going on? That is a fact that it can happen lol but also besides the point. The argument here I'm seeing if because there isn't a tank per person it isn't as bad. I view things equally it isn't about if it affects 10%-70% but how does that affect the gameplay experience per person. And it affects it badly, even more so if there was a debuff that did it multiple times over a duration.
We have no clue how many people would even play in action mode 100% of their time. Out of all of those, we don't know which class would be the most prominent amongst those people and whether that class would be the main target for a tank (let alone several).
And I know that people get focused in wars, but as I said, a single person doesn't matter in a party-based fight. The party is the unit - not its singular members. If only one member of the party is being singled out by several enemy parties - that means that those parties can be attacked by their enemies at uneven ratios. In my experience this usually leads to failures.
But even in that context, as I've said, in my 12 years of playing a mass pvp game - I've never seen someone being super focused by tanks from several parties. At most it'd be 3 members of one party that have aggro abilities. But even then this would usually be an absolute waste of resources, which led to failures, because if 3/9 of your members are trying to control a single enemy - the remaining 8 enemies are fucking your own party.
Based on what you are saying with a single target we are assuming the taunts only affect one target? If we are talking about pve id expect plenty of aggro like skills, single taunts, and aoe taunts. I don't think we should be setting the bar the tank has one taunt and that is enough to handle very hard pve content.
I'm mainly talking about a direct taunt ability. Other skills will probably have aggro values on them for pve, but they wouldn't be "taunts". At least not in pvp.
As for aoes, I've already talked about it. They can be designed and balanced around their pvp applications. Their range could be super small in pvp or their pvp power could be small enough for most classes to resist them with stats (if taunts are based on them), or any other potential solution to your perceived problem with them.
So the point is to ruin the action camera so they have to go tab to not deal with it? do you see what the issue is here? I keep saying you are ruining the experience with a skill like that, to decide to not use it shows that is exactly the case.
Again why choose the worse possible way to do it, and not have a more organic way to taunt through smart design?
Yes, the point is to keep the game a hybrid. Solution to problems should come from the whole game, not just from one place. I'd expect some tab problems to be solved with action camera mode, so it'd be only logical to have action problems that can be solved with tab mode.
Just as I approach this discussion a bit too much from the tab perspective, you seem to approach it a bit too much from the action one. Ashes is not an action game. If anything, it's way closer to a tab one and will quite likely have a ton of problems that would be solved through tab mode.
One of those is Fear, which was mentioned in those reddit threads. What is your opinion on fear in action combat? Cause that is literally taunt but in reverse, except even worse. You completely lose control of your character while it runs away from the enemy. I'd imagine that you hate Fear effects as well, if you dislike camera-moving taunts this much, right?
p.s. I'm going to sleep now so will respond tomorrow.
Those seem to mostly complain about the "character being pulled" part, rather than the camera. So even within the niche of a niche of a niche, there doesn't seem to be much complaining about the camera part. I'm sure there must've been at least a few people in the game's history that disliked it, but that's a minority within a minority. And, as you pointed out, we've been talking about a non-char-pull taunt, so Ashes would probably have the same kind of minority complaining about it, while you were trying to argue that the majority would complain.
This goes both ways between the camera and the character being pulled and the overall function of it. I feel you are reading into it trying to find a way that people are ok with taunts like this for a mmorpg. If people dislike it they dislike it at the end of the day. Like i said before you aren't getting a majority we are talking about 1 character out of 100 others, information and comments are going to be spread over a lot of things. If you are expecting a ton of complains on a small portion of the game with a older character this does not make a lot of sense.
This is again why you go based on design and how it impact things , if this was a new character it be easier to find information and more view points on it since it be at a point where more people talk about it. As i said before in a mmorpg with less class choices you will run into tanks far more meaning increased issues if it is designed badly.
And NW barely had a trinity. And had 5-person parties. And had 0 proper supports iirc. While L2 had almost the exact same archetype composition as Ashes will.
Yes, party setups will vary and differ, but tanks would have to be absolutely fucking insanely OP for majority of parties to have 2 tanks in their setup. And imo a CC-based tank that "forces" his enemies to target him (through the usage of said CCs) would be much worse than a tank who can just directly taunt a target but not too much on top of that (outside of obvious protective abilities).
Tanks don't need to be op for this, there is going to be body blocking and such, and we don't know how things will play out. NW had a trinity but it doesn't change the types you had in wars regardless with some of the bad design with the game. Mages had big aoe dmg, rng had your single target dmg, brusier with aoe, dps and were chunky, healers with broken levels of healing.
Until the game comes out assuming there isn't going to be more tanks and bruiser types shouldn't be set in stone. Based no my experience front line is pretty important, even more so since it will be hybrid.
I'm mainly talking about a direct taunt ability. Other skills will probably have aggro values on them for pve, but they wouldn't be "taunts". At least not in pvp.
As for aoes, I've already talked about it. They can be designed and balanced around their pvp applications. Their range could be super small in pvp or their pvp power could be small enough for most classes to resist them with stats (if taunts are based on them), or any other potential solution to your perceived problem with them.
So if by chance a skill that is based more on aggro than doing anything else is fine to be useless in pvp?
If we hare having wars with a large mount of peoples the aoe skills are going to be more far effective even more so. (im not even talking about the 250vrs 250) 25v25 or 50v50 is enough to mention how annoying something that would be. Which with a few tanks you are now applying taunt camera affects to an even large amount of people, not making it just a few but now escalating it (which also raises the question if the aoe is smaller what is the point of it in PvE, is it to just aggro two mob together. It sounds like it would be something that needs more range to be effective as a tank skill for pve. This is me assuming the range in close melee rng where you get the aoe taunt).
Yes I'm sure you can get resist for a lot of things, so that doesn't change the effect of the skill when it does work. If the idea is to make it a lot less effective in pvp or most people resist it I'd have to ask why. If the answer has to do how annoying it is for effecting players why have it to begin with why not come up with another solution? Anytime the idea make it not happen often it feels like that is done because how badly it creates as an experience for players which is my point.
Yes, the point is to keep the game a hybrid. Solution to problems should come from the whole game, not just from one place. I'd expect some tab problems to be solved with action camera mode, so it'd be only logical to have action problems that can be solved with tab mode.
Just as I approach this discussion a bit too much from the tab perspective, you seem to approach it a bit too much from the action one. Ashes is not an action game. If anything, it's way closer to a tab one and will quite likely have a ton of problems that would be solved through tab mode.
One of those is Fear, which was mentioned in those reddit threads. What is your opinion on fear in action combat? Cause that is literally taunt but in reverse, except even worse. You completely lose control of your character while it runs away from the enemy. I'd imagine that you hate Fear effects as well, if you dislike camera-moving taunts this much, right?
I believe their point is for people to cater to peoples play styles within reason, not to have them forcefully switching because they have to. As well as keep fluidity of combat like they talked about in the combat showcase with melee wanting to make sure you felt in control.
I've never got the idea they are trying to create problems, they are trying to solve them and of course it is more work having action elements. I don't see why they would add a new problem just to force the sake of taunt working on player to force their camera. In fact we are going moving away from it working the exact same as a pve mob simply because of the strength and removing the ability to actually have fun in things start controlling your game for you (showing a clear connection). So this kind of feels like we will have taunts but kind of not the same because a normal taunt would be not fun to begin with kind of situation.
I'm point out issues with action camera being an actual mechanical issue with WASD movement while not controlling your camera no one as refuted. The answer so far being just use tab instead.
Ashes is hybrid until they say other wise, the argument Ashes has tab is not a justification to make the mechanical elements of action camera worse for the sake of having a taunt working on players in a way the adjust their camera.
It is funny that i can literally look at this the opposite and be like if you get taunted and are forced to retarget something else (on the field with all the people you can barely tell where they are and need to go pixel hunting for lack of better word) you can rely on action combat to attack where you want. Still will feel clunky for tab side of things though which i still feel as a issue with forced retarget.
Also on a note about a lot of L2 features, I want ashes to be ashes it does not need to carbon copy old games or old issues in games, or old concepts that would create issues with modern game design. The last thing i need is people lookat at ashes drawing to much old and reverting back (i dont see this happening ever i only see ashes being more of a modern mmorpg) And people start comparing it to Throne and Liberty, that game should be wake up call to everyone (though im still going to play it since i got nothing else to do, but the game itself is making me break my back to convince people to try it not going to derail into that though).
Fear is very aids as well, fine for pve mobs to have that skill but meh. It it was a ultimate I think id be fine with that on a longer cooldown. Though personally i don't think I'd do mush push back against fear, mostly might be used for griefing as well but should have a competent cooldown
There is a difference though in taunt compared to fear. Taunt forced camera to a player and based on PvE I'm sure it is expected to taunt far more often as well as more skills in relation to having taunt on it. Rather than running away from a target you are forced to look at a target, in the taunt we are talking about it only affects your camera meaning it feels clunky because you have partial control where fear you have 0 control being more akin to a moving hard cc with fear.
And again to extra point this out, the use of fear compared to taunt for CD should almost not be comparable. Meaning you are taunting far more than someone could ever fear. Now if we are talking about a class that can fear as often as they taunt that be very very annoying. Anytime you approach someone you just get feared, it be a very good strat to get people killed to mobs though without going red and actively try to get raids to wipe. But that is another story for another day.
And also you are not the one to decide on the protection time of a cc
I'm not, no.
But neither are you - Intrepid makes that decision.
As such, we should be assuming that if they add this to the game, they will make this duration what they consider an acceptable amount of time.
Basically, this is only a point ti argue if there is no acceptable amount of time - but there is.
If you are already going after the tank and you are adding camera spin it is going to feel like input delay and feel clunky
Design taunts to not work on an enemy that has a primary tank target. As such, if I am already going after a tank, I am immune to taunts of other tanks.
There are minor alterations to that needed to prevent cheesing the mechanic, but they are minor.
Lets not assume you are going after the tank though
Why would we assume people aren't going after the tank?
If the idea of this is to make players want to go after the tank first, then being taunted on to the tank should tell you to go after the tank.
As for moving, character movement will need to be independent of camera movement. You will need to be able to move your character on one direction while looking in a different direction. As such, there is no reason at all for a change in camera direction (ie, being taunted) to alter the direction in which you are running.
CC sucks
If you are running in a direction holding W down and get taunted, your camera should change direction, but your character should remain running in the same direction it was. Yes, some action games dont allow for your camera and character to be facing different directions, but many do. The spatial awareness needed to he able to control your character and camera as individual entities is a fairly basic MMO skill - even in tab target games.
That said, the only time you realistically should be running and have your camera taunted to a substantially different direction is if you are running away from a fight. If you are actually fighting, the change in direction wont very often be more than 45 degrees. If you are fighting properly by going after the tanks first, you wont ever have a change in direction of your camera.
The issue is constant forced camera control and chunkiness, I'm not talking about general cc prevention.
Players will literally have the ability to be permanently immune to having their camera being moved on them. All they need to do is go after the tank first.
Since the idea of the whole thing is to make it so players would chose to go after the tank first (and force those who try not to), it would seem to me that it is having the desired effect.
And also you are not the one to decide on the protection time of a cc
I'm not, no.
But neither are you - Intrepid makes that decision.
As such, we should be assuming that if they add this to the game, they will make this duration what they consider an acceptable amount of time.
Basically, this is only a point ti argue if there is no acceptable amount of time - but there is.
If you are already going after the tank and you are adding camera spin it is going to feel like input delay and feel clunky
Design taunts to not work on an enemy that has a primary tank target. As such, if I am already going after a tank, I am immune to taunts of other tanks.
There are minor alterations to that needed to prevent cheesing the mechanic, but they are minor.
Lets not assume you are going after the tank though
Why would we assume people aren't going after the tank?
If the idea of this is to make players want to go after the tank first, then being taunted on to the tank should tell you to go after the tank.
As for moving, character movement will need to be independent of camera movement. You will need to be able to move your character on one direction while looking in a different direction. As such, there is no reason at all for a change in camera direction (ie, being taunted) to alter the direction in which you are running.
CC sucks
If you are running in a direction holding W down and get taunted, your camera should change direction, but your character should remain running in the same direction it was. Yes, some action games dont allow for your camera and character to be facing different directions, but many do. The spatial awareness needed to he able to control your character and camera as individual entities is a fairly basic MMO skill - even in tab target games.
That said, the only time you realistically should be running and have your camera taunted to a substantially different direction is if you are running away from a fight. If you are actually fighting, the change in direction wont very often be more than 45 degrees. If you are fighting properly by going after the tanks first, you wont ever have a change in direction of your camera.
Yes they are the one that decides the time, and why i say assuming it is 10 seconds is not correct. WE will know when the game is in a more complete state with their balancing.
That is a possibilities they create custom elements based on archetypes people are fighting. Be it worth it to force a taunt to work in this kind of way that is again ruining player experience, that is debatable.
This doesn't make players go after the tank it becomes a cc that is annoying yes but does not make you force the tank. You deal with that clunky cc (again ruining the experience) than continue what you need to do after the random camera pull. If i have a cleric in front of me at 40% and my camera gets pulled tot he tank, why on earth would I then allow the cleric get away at the end of the effect?
And you are missing the core of the point of me saying you aren't focusing the tank. Being multiple tanks on the field, being camera pulled by a tank 30 meters away in a crowd of people is what I mean. You aren't focusing the tank, we should be here assuming that is the case. I feel you think this idea is a banger but again you are just forcing down a pve mechanic on players int he worse possible way.
As such, there is no reason at all for a change in camera direction (ie, being taunted) to alter the direction in which you are running.
Going to really focus on this point for 2 seconds, this spills of your mind set being tab focused as your preferred play style. That is not how an action camera works.
Quick picture, showing the direction you are moving in based on action camera. Upon looking in a different direction your camera facing direction will be different meaning your directions will be changing. This compounds if you have an effect that lingers (takes .5-1.5 seconds) until your camera full positions on the new target. During that curved duration your movement is going to feel like you are on ice skates as you are not the one in control of the camera. This compounds the further your camera turns from where you are taunted. Effectively you could be going the opposite direction.
All action mmorpgs have this feature I'm pretty certain, and survival games that are third person where you can look around and it doesn't affect your moving position. Though this isn't the case if you are talking about being affected by forced camera control. Though if you advocated for it, it would again compound more clunky feelings to taunt. You are further moving where the player goes and moves even more so by forcing them to run in a set direction. Im most likely not explaining this well enough but it isn't a good thing either. It be like in Pubg if at random points that took effect while you were in a fight and your movement is limited. Moving while the camera is doing this in action camera feels very bad, its mainly for looking back as you run in one direction. This wouldn't work under a taunt effect though either way.
I really don't like this concept you are pushing "you need to go after tanks first" and that is the mind set everyone has to have. All the points seem to step off that, players should do what they want to do, not be shoe horned by bad mechanics that you need to hit a tank first.
Again there are other ways to approach this to create more organic ways to accomplish this that have taunts work in the worse way possible on players. Force camera control is not making anyone only attacking a tank you are giving players a way that will ruin the experience. This feels like a very PvE mind set and not one based on PvP. There are going to be multiple tanks in PvP in large scale, with all kinds of taunts this isn't going to be fun for anyone.
The issue is constant forced camera control and chunkiness, I'm not talking about general cc prevention.
Players will literally have the ability to be permanently immune to having their camera being moved on them. All they need to do is go after the tank first.
Since the idea of the whole thing is to make it so players would chose to go after the tank first (and force those who try not to), it would seem to me that it is having the desired effect.
I go about this in my other post, long story short though there isn't just going to be one tank so they wont be immune. The idea of making the game annoying to play to try to force attacks on a tank doesn't sound like good design, and this wont really work you just deal with the annoying part then go amount your business killing who you want to kill.
It is funny that i can literally look at this the opposite and be like if you get taunted and are forced to retarget something else (on the field with all the people you can barely tell where they are and need to go pixel hunting for lack of better word) you can rely on action combat to attack where you want. Still will feel clunky for tab side of things though which i still feel as a issue with forced retarget.
As I said before, the taunt could have additional effect of "you barely do any dmg to other targets while taunted". Obviously this effect could exist even w/o moving your camera, but then you'd have zero clue as to who you're even supposed to attack. I'd prefer if the camera panned towards the one who taunted me and then gave some form of an indicator above that tank's head.
I'm sure you'd say that it could do so w/o panning the camera, but, considering that action mode will give us a much smaller fov of the battlefield, you'd have to move your camera a lot either way when you get taunted. And I'd prefer if the game helped me find my enemy in a big fight. Though I doubt this would really be a problem for me, cause I'll be playing at full tab zoom out most of the time
Also on a note about a lot of L2 features, I want ashes to be ashes it does not need to carbon copy old games or old issues in games, or old concepts that would create issues with modern game design. The last thing i need is people lookat at ashes drawing to much old and reverting back (i dont see this happening ever i only see ashes being more of a modern mmorpg) And people start comparing it to Throne and Liberty, that game should be wake up call to everyone (though im still going to play it since i got nothing else to do, but the game itself is making me break my back to convince people to try it not going to derail into that though).
Except it already has a shitton of stuff from L2, so anyone who knows that game will compare the two. Not like there's that many people who even know L2. Open world pvp is an old design. Death penalties is an old design. Long leveling is an old design. No party finder is an old design. And I'm sure there's a few other old designs that I'm forgetting right now.
Ashes will be called "an old mmo" whether you like it or not. Well, unless they literally change all of that shit
Fear is very aids as well, fine for pve mobs to have that skill but meh. It it was a ultimate I think id be fine with that on a longer cooldown. Though personally i don't think I'd do mush push back against fear, mostly might be used for griefing as well but should have a competent cooldown
There is a difference though in taunt compared to fear. Taunt forced camera to a player and based on PvE I'm sure it is expected to taunt far more often as well as more skills in relation to having taunt on it. Rather than running away from a target you are forced to look at a target, in the taunt we are talking about it only affects your camera meaning it feels clunky because you have partial control where fear you have 0 control being more akin to a moving hard cc with fear.
And again to extra point this out, the use of fear compared to taunt for CD should almost not be comparable. Meaning you are taunting far more than someone could ever fear. Now if we are talking about a class that can fear as often as they taunt that be very very annoying. Anytime you approach someone you just get feared, it be a very good strat to get people killed to mobs though without going red and actively try to get raids to wipe. But that is another story for another day.
And just as fear has to be properly balanced so as to not be seen as op - the taunt will be too. Also, you like to say that you'll be taunted by 20 tanks in all kinds of directions. What about 20 fear-having classes from 20 directions then? I'd assume either mage or bard will have direct fear debuffs. And I'm almost sure that any party will have AT LEAST a mage and a bard. Most likely several of either or even of both. At that point each party will, potentially, have several fear-having classes that can properly stagger their casts and have you running all over the place w/o a single shred of character control.
Tanks do none of that.
But you said that you see fear as aids as well, so I think the main issue here is not that taunt is clunky, but just the fact that you dislike these kinds of mechanics by default. Others don't seem to do that. That's it. So unless Intrepid make a dev discussion about the "you lose control of your character" mechanics (btw @Vaknar please do) - we won't know how many people agree with you on this.
So on this point I don't see any reason to continue this discussion (personally speaking). I'm sure Noaani can entertain you for a few more pages though
Quick picture, showing the direction you are moving in based on action camera. Upon looking in a different direction your camera facing direction will be different meaning your directions will be changing.
This is "one way" an action camera can work.
Even in tab target games, this is "one way" the camera works. In fact, it is the way the camera works most of the time in a tab target game. However, it is not the only way it works. In many games, holding the right mouse button down de-syncronizes character and camera movement, with character movement being left with wasd, and camera movement being controlled with the mouse.
Again, being able to move your character in a straight line while looking in many different directions is a key player skill for MMORPOG's. There is no reason this player skill can not be present when a player in is action camera mode.
Sure, your attacks would still go in the direction your camera is facing, but that is the point. If you are taunted, you can only attack the character that taunts you for the duration, hence your camera pointing at them. That is literally the desired function here - however you can still run in what ever direction you want.
I really don't like this concept you are pushing "you need to go after tanks first" and that is the mind set everyone has to have. All the points seem to step off that, players should do what they want to do, not be shoe horned by bad mechanics that you need to hit a tank first.
In most MMO PvP, the meta right now is to go for the healers first. If you don't kill the healers, they will just keep whoever you do go after alive - iobviously.
Players don't really have an option, in most games that is what you need to do to win.
All this suggestion does is shift that to needing to go to the tanks first - which realistically is where it should be.
Now, there are obviously more tricks to it than just alwaysgoing after the tank - you may want to find a way to get a burst DPS class through to take out a healer or two, or perhaps a top performing DPS or a support. The key point there though, is that you can't just go strqaight after those more vulnerable classes, because the tank is essentially excercising zone of control between you and them.
There are going to be multiple tanks in PvP in large scale, with all kinds of taunts this isn't going to be fun for anyone.
Yeah, and if you and your group or raid go after them first, you are all essentially immune to their taunts.
I go about this in my other post, long story short though there isn't just going to be one tank so they wont be immune.
Yeah they would be immune.
Again, if you are targeting a character with tank primary, you shouldn't be able to be taunted off of them. The idea of taunts here is to encourage players to go after tanks first, so if you are going after a tank you shouldn't be able to be taunted off. Any otheir effects on a taunt ability should take hold, just not the actual taunt component.
This being possible is counter to the entire point.
As I said before, the taunt could have additional effect of "you barely do any dmg to other targets while taunted". Obviously this effect could exist even w/o moving your camera, but then you'd have zero clue as to who you're even supposed to attack. I'd prefer if the camera panned towards the one who taunted me and then gave some form of an indicator above that tank's head.
I'm sure you'd say that it could do so w/o panning the camera, but, considering that action mode will give us a much smaller fov of the battlefield, you'd have to move your camera a lot either way when you get taunted. And I'd prefer if the game helped me find my enemy in a big fight. Though I doubt this would really be a problem for me, cause I'll be playing at full tab zoom out most of the time
This is why I'm saying tab mentality, it is going to be a clunky feature that isn't in the game and put in for no reason. Who taunted you needs to have a very obviously mark you will be able to tell apart in a group even if there is 20 people around. Using action camera you need to be aware of what is going on and look for yourself you don't need someone else to force and dot hat for you.
We are at the point where we are going to say when taunted you do almost no dmg to player players? You are effectively taking the effect from other mmorpgs including swtor and being like raising 30% to 90%. These don't sound like good mechanics to me and I have not seen them exist in other games ever. Mind set you need to attack tank no matter what first does not make sense to me trying to force it in this way that isn't organic. So meta will be people running tanks taunting people and kiting making it so as many people can't do dmg as possible, plus other cc and body blocking. Im sensing things will be not fun for large scale with ideas like this being added
Except it already has a shitton of stuff from L2, so anyone who knows that game will compare the two. Not like there's that many people who even know L2. Open world pvp is an old design. Death penalties is an old design. Long leveling is an old design. No party finder is an old design. And I'm sure there's a few other old designs that I'm forgetting right now.
Ashes will be called "an old mmo" whether you like it or not. Well, unless they literally change all of tha
shit
This is not what i mean by old design, i mean gameplay elements that feel clunky or issues in past game in relation to gameplay around combat as well as pure tab target. Leveling, open world pvp, death penalities are not things I'm talking about with old design.
And just as fear has to be properly balanced so as to not be seen as op - the taunt will be too. Also, you like to say that you'll be taunted by 20 tanks in all kinds of directions. What about 20 fear-having classes from 20 directions then? I'd assume either mage or bard will have direct fear debuffs. And I'm almost sure that any party will have AT LEAST a mage and a bard. Most likely several of either or even of both. At that point each party will, potentially, have several fear-having classes that can properly stagger their casts and have you running all over the place w/o a single shred of character control.
Tanks do none of that.
But you said that you see fear as aids as well, so I think the main issue here is not that taunt is clunky, but just the fact that you dislike these kinds of mechanics by default. Others don't seem to do that. That's it. So unless Intrepid make a dev discussion about the "you lose control of your character" mechanics (btw @Vaknar please do) - we won't know how many people agree with you on this.
So on this point I don't see any reason to continue this discussion (personally speaking). I'm sure Noaani can entertain you for a few more pages though
Here is the thing I explained before but maybe it didn't reach well enough or was missed.
Taunt - Purpose of taunt in pve is to keep aggro which means you need to be prepared for a lot of mobs and to use it constantly having multiple tools to do so (though generally this is better through aggro taunts are a more boring way of approaching it imo). Which means your tuants will be coming back faster, you are going to have long range taunts and you will have aoe taunts to suppose the difficult element of PvE and keeping your team alive as the holy trinity of being a tank. Meaning you will have constant access to your taunt very often. This mind set of forcing a mechanic designed around pve and giving it very powerful effects or very annoying effects means the frequency of it will be extreme on applying it to players.
Fear is not part of the holy trinity, you can compare it to sleep, with that having a longer CD, fear and taunt are not even comparable in the assumption of what will be used more based on the design.
If you think others don't like clunky camera effects and controlling your character (even more so being put into the game for no reason) you are very mistaken. A ton of people would dislike the way you outlined implementing some of these things. My guild as well feels it be extremely cancer.
When it comes to losing character control or forced camera movement people are far more sensitive to that, even more so as they play. I get you are mainly tab focused so that is not a issue for you, but I'm letting you know this is a giant landmine.
Even in tab target games, this is "one way" the camera works. In fact, it is the way the camera works most of the time in a tab target game. However, it is not the only way it works. In many games, holding the right mouse button down de-syncronizes character and camera movement, with character movement being left with wasd, and camera movement being controlled with the mouse.
Again, being able to move your character in a straight line while looking in many different directions is a key player skill for MMORPOG's. There is no reason this player skill can not be present when a player in is action camera mode.
Sure, your attacks would still go in the direction your camera is facing, but that is the point. If you are taunted, you can only attack the character that taunts you for the duration, hence your camera pointing at them. That is literally the desired function here - however you can still run in what ever direction you want.
No it isn't, that is never how it works in action camera in mmorpgs, that is how it works in tab mmorpgs....
Left click and right click are both used for combat in action camera mmorpgs. You generally would hold control or such to move your camera around without being clocked on your character. (you can re-keybind but than you are losing one of your attacks, which is not a normal rebind).
Using the button that shifts your camera in a third person action camera to look around is extremely clunky. If you have played these other games you would be well aware of that. You are actually creating a 3 camera issue again for no reason there are better ways to approach this. (taunt camera, player camera, temp player adjusted camera)
So this is extreme tab mind set, are you are effectively making it worse than i thought if you are suggesting for the duration you can only attack towards the direction of the tank. This sounds fully like you are removing action camera and forcing tab playstyle on it. I'm unsure what this duration is going be be im assuming 2-3 seconds effect which brings a bunch of issues.
1. Extreme clunky feeling added to a game for 0 reason instead of taking a more well thought out approach.
2. again cameras flipping issues with the more degrees you need to turn the faster the camera will move creating a random disorienting effect out of gameplay.
3. Tanks able to use taunts from distances having a strong cc, that CC you in terms of taking your mobility away as you are force turned around. Then requiring plays to press clunky key binds to adjust their camera and see where they are going and have clunky movement do to the controls of temp player camera.
In most MMO PvP, the meta right now is to go for the healers first. If you don't kill the healers, they will just keep whoever you do go after alive - iobviously.
Players don't really have an option, in most games that is what you need to do to win.
All this suggestion does is shift that to needing to go to the tanks first - which realistically is where it should be.
Now, there are obviously more tricks to it than just alwaysgoing after the tank - you may want to find a way to get a burst DPS class through to take out a healer or two, or perhaps a top performing DPS or a support. The key point there though, is that you can't just go strqaight after those more vulnerable classes, because the tank is essentially excercising zone of control between you and them.
I get you are from Pve and this is a very PvE mind set in making things uni form and the same as PvE but this shouldn't really be the case. It should be the job of the teams to protect their backline, yes everyone needs tools to do their task but that doesn't mean one needs to be killed before you kill the other. This goes for both healers having broken healing so you can't kill tanks, or in your case trying to make them game annoying you you can't do anything but attack tanks.
To focus on "kill tank first" that shouldn't be a thing their control on the battlefield should be fun in a fun aspect with zone control. Taunt isn't really zone control all it is is a cc everyone has something like that, you are just implementing the worse version of a cc that creates clunky gameplay (though if it is a aoe taunt that would be zone control and very annoying). If we look at other games you can view tanks having large slows, creating walls to block people off and sight, of course the norm is a high amount of cc, being able to front line and start the fight off their their dmg reduction so the fights part off in a positive way for the dps and other places so they don't get blown up, etc. They also showed a skill that makes the dmg taken from other be transferred to you in a % another great tank and zone control skill. Idea that tanks need to force people to attack them through hard camera control is kind of absurd, idea that they aren't making a big impact just because people go for healers first isn't true. If you want them to have more impact that can be down without using camera control as a means to do so.
Yeah, and if you and your group or raid go after them first, you are all essentially immune to their taunts.
You are going to be taunted all around you, doesn't matter who you are going after your camera is going to be flipped around through the fight by the random taunts on you from all direction when you are off protection. It is a aids mechanic and you aren't going to be immune, you have just said earlier the effect lingers on you and you have to attack them duration the effect you won't be immune to anything. This is a bad idea, you are physically trying to force something that makes the overall experience much worse.
Yeah they would be immune.
Again, if you are targeting a character with tank primary, you shouldn't be able to be taunted off of them. The idea of taunts here is to encourage players to go after tanks first, so if you are going after a tank you shouldn't be able to be taunted off. Any other effects on a taunt ability should take hold, just not the actual taunt component.
This being possible is counter to the entire point.
I'm not saying you are taunted right away or during the effect....I'm saying at then end of the effect when the protection is gone be it 5-10 seconds or less potentially. Another tank will be able to use taunt on you and flipping your camera around.
I can think of so many better ways to implement these things that be more interesting lol. At the end of the day i hope they go without taunt and just use aggro while having great zone control effects for pvp and pve. Taunt is boring. @Noaani
Wait you play games in 'Attack In Camera Direction' mode in Action MMOs?
That explains so much.
Change the setting to 'Attack In Character Facing Mode' to solve the problem, Mag.
EDIT: Nvm, I knew BDO kinda didn't have this setting but turns out that New World doesn't have it either so I'll just assume most games Mag plays don't have it.
Mag7 for your data, a lot of other games have 'attack in direction character is facing' as a setting you can use and players of those games build up a specific skill related to spatial awareness where they can fluidly adjust the camera to keep it on their target while moving in the direction they want in a gradient.
For an example, see recent Monster Hunter games, where the character attacks in their facing direction and the player controls the Camera separately.
NiKr How many more pages do i need to write now, legit making me feel like I'm writing for 4 people x.x.
That's a question for Noaani, not me. I'm done with this convo I want taunts in Ashes because I'm gonna be a tank. You don't want them because they feel clunky/oldschool/bad/etc to you. I see no way for us to come to an understanding on this point.
NiKr How many more pages do i need to write now, legit making me feel like I'm writing for 4 people x.x.
That's a question for Noaani, not me. I'm done with this convo I want taunts in Ashes because I'm gonna be a tank. You don't want them because they feel clunky/oldschool/bad/etc to you. I see no way for us to come to an understanding on this point.
I, too, don't know why you're still writing, Mag. It's not that people don't understand your points, it's that no one here agrees with them. It wouldn't matter how much more you typed if no one in the conversation agrees.
I'm not saying you are taunted right away or during the effect....I'm saying at then end of the effect when the protection is gone be it 5-10 seconds or less potentially. Another tank will be able to use taunt on you and flipping your camera around.
As I have said in each of my last three posts, and you have quoted, if you are targeting a character with tank primary, you shouldnt be able to he taunted off of them. The idea of this is to encourage players to go after tanks first in PvP, and so if that is what you are doing, there is no need for you to be able to be taunted off.
Thus, in effect, if you are attacking a tank, you are immune to taunts from everyone.
NiKr How many more pages do i need to write now, legit making me feel like I'm writing for 4 people x.x.
That's a question for Noaani, not me. I'm done with this convo I want taunts in Ashes because I'm gonna be a tank. You don't want them because they feel clunky/oldschool/bad/etc to you. I see no way for us to come to an understanding on this point.
I don't think we will because you want to impact it is on and only one way and aren't open to ways that don't impact the mechanics of the gameplay negatively. You got like 100 other ways to go about it but you want the one way that is not common place in games for clear reasons. Which you said tab could be a solution which shows it isn't a good idea to begin with.
So ill stick to my points and i guess we leave it at that.
Wait you play games in 'Attack In Camera Direction' mode in Action MMOs?
That explains so much.
Change the setting to 'Attack In Character Facing Mode' to solve the problem, Mag.
EDIT: Nvm, I knew BDO kinda didn't have this setting but turns out that New World doesn't have it either so I'll just assume most games Mag plays don't have it.
Mag7 for your data, a lot of other games have 'attack in direction character is facing' as a setting you can use and players of those games build up a specific skill related to spatial awareness where they can fluidly adjust the camera to keep it on their target while moving in the direction they want in a gradient.
For an example, see recent Monster Hunter games, where the character attacks in their facing direction and the player controls the Camera separately.
You always attack in facing direction that is not what I'm talking about though. If you were to hold ctrl and attack you would be attacking int he facing direction of your attack. This is not what I'm talking about at all. Im saying when you have something effecting your camera not in your control at random points it will feel clunky or while you are holding ctrl to swap your camera it will feel clunky. Mmorpgs have this, pubg has this, other survival games or 3rd person has this.
I think Azherae was talking about 8-directional-based combat design. Instead of just "you always attack forward", you can hit in any of the 8 directions (the combos of wasd that is) while your camera is directed onto one point. Genshin works this way (an action combat game), Star Rail works this way (action combat in the overworld) and multiple other action combat games have this. And I'm assuming some games even have this as an option, as Azherae said.
Oh, and this doesn't require any button presses or anything, you just gotta have enough skill to adjust to the changes of your surroundings on the fly. But I'm sure you'll still consider it clunky.
I think Azherae was talking about 8-directional-based combat design. Instead of just "you always attack forward", you can hit in any of the 8 directions (the combos of wasd that is) while your camera is directed onto one point. Genshin works this way (an action combat game), Star Rail works this way (action combat in the overworld) and multiple other action combat games have this. And I'm assuming some games even have this as an option, as Azherae said.
Oh, and this doesn't require any button presses or anything, you just gotta have enough skill to adjust to the changes of your surroundings on the fly. But I'm sure you'll still consider it clunky.
This is literarily not what I'm talking about lol. I play a lot of types of games and know how different cameras work. I even explained this with pictures and referenced other games.
Play Pubg and adjust the camera and with the alt button and try to move with WASD. Pubg is free so it wont cost you money.
I'm starting to chalk this up to stubbornness and trying to understand what I'm talking about with cameras, do to the few of you wanting one way and refusing to see anything else which to me is wild.
Again Player camera, tempt player camera (the one you can adjust to look around), Player camera control by enemy.
You direction you move in is based on player camera, if enemy controls the camera it affects the direction you move in, so if camera down a 180 flip you will move forward instead of backwards based on your original desired direction. Temp player camera does not control the direction of where you attack or what direction you move. Your attacks will be linked to camera so the direction the player cameras is facing or how the enemy is controlling is. Hence move meant will feel clunky since you are not in around and your camera is being forced to face in certain directions reducing your effective moment and the point of using action camera.
This is not a good feature, I don't think you understand how much you are actually ruining the experience of a player. But if you plan to be in tab most the time, and have mostly played tab games this is where i'm saying the bias comes into play not understanding how it will feel. Azherae playing a lot says she is fine with clunky games so i can't say anything to that. But you think the normal player is going to be fine, again people hate losing control, this is the worse way to lose control.
This is not a good feature, I don't think you understand how much you are actually ruining the experience of a player. But if you plan to be in tab most the time, and have mostly played tab games this is where i'm saying the bias comes into play not understanding how it will feel. Azherae playing a lot says she is fine with clunky games so i can't say anything to that. But you think the normal player is going to be fine, again people hate losing control, this is the worse way to lose control.
Ok I think there might be something akin to progress here.
In some games I play, the direction of the character's movement is entirely separate from the camera facing except when aiming reticle based shots (which pause the character and snap their facing to the camera facing).
I always move the camera to face whatever I want to attack anyway, and then when I want to make an attack at the camera position I press... W and the attack button. Or I tap W and press the attack button. Or if it is reticle based and 'snaps to facing' then I just press the attack.
I entirely agree that if I am moving let's say 'diagonal backward strafe' away from a Ranger with my camera on that Ranger, and I then get taunted by a Tank directly on the other side of me from that Ranger, and my camera spins, I will, for about 12 frames minimum, end up moving diagonally away from the tank and therefore slightly closer to the Ranger. My camera view will now be on the Tank. I probably still know where the ranger is and I switch to pressing diagonal forward for some Diagonal Progression toward the Tank to maintain my direction.
I can no longer attack the Ranger with my reticle-targeted ranged abilities unless I reorient myself. I must now move the camera 180 while blending the movement of my character to counter the camera movement. I consider this still having control of my character, but definitely not my camera (since I'm just resetting a change anyway, I am reasserting control relative to my goal).
From what I understand, the part you have the problem with is the 12 frames, not the 'blending of camera movement with direction changes to retain the direction you are moving while doing the 180 camera turn'.
But if you plan to be in tab most the time, and have mostly played tab games this is where i'm saying the bias comes into play not understanding how it will feel.
I've mainly played Genshin for the past 3 years. It's an action combat game with 8-directional combat. And it moves my camera when I come close to a place of interest (usually a quest spot) or if some event has just occurred and the game wants me to pay attention to it right away.
And I'm completely fine with this mechanic. And would like if tank taunts did the same in Ashes
Azherae playing a lot says she is fine with clunky games so i can't say anything to that. But you think the normal player is going to be fine, again people hate losing control, this is the worse way to lose control.
What I think is that Ashes will utterly fail to attract any kind of "normal" player. At this point in time I truly believe that. I've watched several doomer videos about the state of mmos (and gaming in general) and I saw quite a few people thinking that Ashes will somehow save the genre. I'm 95% sure it will not only fail at doing that, but will also get shit on by the majority of current gamers.
And I'm saying this even in the context of Intrepid somehow pulling off the best possible combat in the entire genre (which I'm 70% sure they won't be able to do). Just today Asmon did a reaction to LA's current state and said "people put up with the shitty design of the game due to its cool combat" (which afaik also applies to BDO). But even that "putting up" is kinda dwindling, cause over 90% of players have left the game. I'm almost sure that Ashes will be in the same spot, even if they somehow manage to counter any and all bots.
So with all that being said, I really don't think that forced camera movement will somehow be the biggest reason for people to leave the game. I'm sure there'd be at least a few people that do, but nowhere near majority.
the few of you wanting one way and refusing to see anything else which to me is wild
I personally don't want to be a glorified bard when I play a tank. And I expect bards to be the main CC-having archetype. Tank's goal is to prevent his party from taking damage. That comes in the way of defensive actions (usually that's buffs, but I've been a loud proponent of action-based directional blocks of incoming dmg) and redirection of damage. In pve redirection comes from aggroing mobs, which in turn leads to tanks having multiple abilities with aggroing effects and a direct taunt whose whole purpose is to interact with the mob's vector of attacks.
And I'd prefer if that taunt wasn't just a pve tool, because I want to use everything I have in pvp as well. I wanna cast a taunt on a player and go "look at me, I am your target now"
This is not a good feature, I don't think you understand how much you are actually ruining the experience of a player. But if you plan to be in tab most the time, and have mostly played tab games this is where i'm saying the bias comes into play not understanding how it will feel. Azherae playing a lot says she is fine with clunky games so i can't say anything to that. But you think the normal player is going to be fine, again people hate losing control, this is the worse way to lose control.
Ok I think there might be something akin to progress here.
In some games I play, the direction of the character's movement is entirely separate from the camera facing except when aiming reticle based shots (which pause the character and snap their facing to the camera facing).
I always move the camera to face whatever I want to attack anyway, and then when I want to make an attack at the camera position I press... W and the attack button. Or I tap W and press the attack button. Or if it is reticle based and 'snaps to facing' then I just press the attack.
I entirely agree that if I am moving let's say 'diagonal backward strafe' away from a Ranger with my camera on that Ranger, and I then get taunted by a Tank directly on the other side of me from that Ranger, and my camera spins, I will, for about 12 frames minimum, end up moving diagonally away from the tank and therefore slightly closer to the Ranger. My camera view will now be on the Tank. I probably still know where the ranger is and I switch to pressing diagonal forward for some Diagonal Progression toward the Tank to maintain my direction.
I can no longer attack the Ranger with my reticle-targeted ranged abilities unless I reorient myself. I must now move the camera 180 while blending the movement of my character to counter the camera movement. I consider this still having control of my character, but definitely not my camera (since I'm just resetting a change anyway, I am reasserting control relative to my goal).
From what I understand, the part you have the problem with is the 12 frames, not the 'blending of camera movement with direction changes to retain the direction you are moving while doing the 180 camera turn'.
Is that right?
Party, we need to consider the time it takes for the camera to turn during that turn arch your character will be moving "feeling akin to being drunk" and at the end of the turn from the taunt you would be moving full in a backwards position of intention from before (aka if you were moving back now you are moving forward).
You have control of your attack and your movement it is the lack of camera control that affects your overall gameplay experience.
With what you guys have suggested having to have your camera on the tank, you won't be able to look away or focus is pulled back to it every few seconds for a duration. If you use Temp player camera the movement will feel clunky akin to pubg since it isn't your true camera, as your actual camera is forced to face the tank. You are simply using your key to look around since your actual camera is forced to look at the tank for the duration and attack the direction only what taunts you.
Pubg is free will take like 10 min to download. If you use the Alt button and move with your WASD you will see what I'm talking about for that with movement.
Btw, does Predecessor have fear-type effects? Cause I'd be interested in seeing how they work there, if they do. @Mag7spy same question for smite as well, cause I forgot to ask this when we were talking about those 2 games.
This is not a good feature, I don't think you understand how much you are actually ruining the experience of a player. But if you plan to be in tab most the time, and have mostly played tab games this is where i'm saying the bias comes into play not understanding how it will feel. Azherae playing a lot says she is fine with clunky games so i can't say anything to that. But you think the normal player is going to be fine, again people hate losing control, this is the worse way to lose control.
Ok I think there might be something akin to progress here.
In some games I play, the direction of the character's movement is entirely separate from the camera facing except when aiming reticle based shots (which pause the character and snap their facing to the camera facing).
I always move the camera to face whatever I want to attack anyway, and then when I want to make an attack at the camera position I press... W and the attack button. Or I tap W and press the attack button. Or if it is reticle based and 'snaps to facing' then I just press the attack.
I entirely agree that if I am moving let's say 'diagonal backward strafe' away from a Ranger with my camera on that Ranger, and I then get taunted by a Tank directly on the other side of me from that Ranger, and my camera spins, I will, for about 12 frames minimum, end up moving diagonally away from the tank and therefore slightly closer to the Ranger. My camera view will now be on the Tank. I probably still know where the ranger is and I switch to pressing diagonal forward for some Diagonal Progression toward the Tank to maintain my direction.
I can no longer attack the Ranger with my reticle-targeted ranged abilities unless I reorient myself. I must now move the camera 180 while blending the movement of my character to counter the camera movement. I consider this still having control of my character, but definitely not my camera (since I'm just resetting a change anyway, I am reasserting control relative to my goal).
From what I understand, the part you have the problem with is the 12 frames, not the 'blending of camera movement with direction changes to retain the direction you are moving while doing the 180 camera turn'.
Is that right?
Party, we need to consider the time it takes for the camera to turn during that turn arch your character will be moving "feeling akin to being drunk" and at the end of the turn from the taunt you would be moving full in a backwards position of intention from before (aka if you were moving back now you are moving forward).
You have control of your attack and your movement it is the lack of camera control that affects your overall gameplay experience.
With what you guys have suggested having to have your camera on the tank, you won't be able to look away or focus is pulled back to it every few seconds for a duration. If you use Temp player camera the movement will feel clunky akin to pubg since it isn't your true camera, as your actual camera is forced to face the tank. You are simply using your key to look around since your actual camera is forced to look at the tank for the duration and attack the direction only what taunts you.
Pubg is free will take like 10 min to download. If you use the Alt button and move with your WASD you will see what I'm talking about for that with movement.
I am not talking about temp player camera, why are you bringing it up?
I don't see what temp player camera has to do with this conversation.
Is this because you are talking about 'Playing Ashes primarily in Action Reticle mode' and don't want this effect because it would be troublesome then? I don't think it's unreasonable to have effects that one counters by 'entering Tab Target mode' in a hybrid game.
Is this because you are talking about 'Playing Ashes primarily in Action Reticle mode' and don't want this effect because it would be troublesome then? I don't think it's unreasonable to have effects that one counters by 'entering Tab Target mode' in a hybrid game.
I've brought that up before. Mag disagrees with this position.
Btw, does Predecessor have fear-type effects? Cause I'd be interested in seeing how they work there, if they do. @Mag7spy same question for smite as well, cause I forgot to ask this when we were talking about those 2 games.
None that I'm aware of, but remember that Knockback can replace it for faster paced games. So as example, playing Sevarog, I would consider 'induce fear and cause your opponent to run under your tower' to be similar to what I do now, huge knockup-knockback to put them there personally by my own positioning.
I can see the distinction though.
Predecessor normally does that by forcing it another way, their newest character is one you'd like.
Greystone's Ultimate heals him and makes him immune and invincible but unable to attack for a bit, but then does AoE damage around him. The almost universal best response is to run away from him as fast as possible before the AoE goes off. You can't hurt him, and most builds certainly do 'fear' getting caught in that AoE unnecessarily.
But a ranged character outside of the range of it wouldn't move, so there's that nuance. Etc.
I do not expect that this effect would make it into the game because it doesn't generally have CC that lasts longer than usually 80 frames maximum (Sevarog's Colossal Blow previously mentioned, Countess' ult previously discussed) and 80f of 'runs away from target' isn't that meaningful in higher mobility games unless the effect can force the character to use movement skills too.
It might be cool as a "This thing makes you run away from them and also gives you a movespeed buff while doing it'.
This is not a good feature, I don't think you understand how much you are actually ruining the experience of a player. But if you plan to be in tab most the time, and have mostly played tab games this is where i'm saying the bias comes into play not understanding how it will feel. Azherae playing a lot says she is fine with clunky games so i can't say anything to that. But you think the normal player is going to be fine, again people hate losing control, this is the worse way to lose control.
Ok I think there might be something akin to progress here.
In some games I play, the direction of the character's movement is entirely separate from the camera facing except when aiming reticle based shots (which pause the character and snap their facing to the camera facing).
I always move the camera to face whatever I want to attack anyway, and then when I want to make an attack at the camera position I press... W and the attack button. Or I tap W and press the attack button. Or if it is reticle based and 'snaps to facing' then I just press the attack.
I entirely agree that if I am moving let's say 'diagonal backward strafe' away from a Ranger with my camera on that Ranger, and I then get taunted by a Tank directly on the other side of me from that Ranger, and my camera spins, I will, for about 12 frames minimum, end up moving diagonally away from the tank and therefore slightly closer to the Ranger. My camera view will now be on the Tank. I probably still know where the ranger is and I switch to pressing diagonal forward for some Diagonal Progression toward the Tank to maintain my direction.
I can no longer attack the Ranger with my reticle-targeted ranged abilities unless I reorient myself. I must now move the camera 180 while blending the movement of my character to counter the camera movement. I consider this still having control of my character, but definitely not my camera (since I'm just resetting a change anyway, I am reasserting control relative to my goal).
From what I understand, the part you have the problem with is the 12 frames, not the 'blending of camera movement with direction changes to retain the direction you are moving while doing the 180 camera turn'.
Is that right?
Party, we need to consider the time it takes for the camera to turn during that turn arch your character will be moving "feeling akin to being drunk" and at the end of the turn from the taunt you would be moving full in a backwards position of intention from before (aka if you were moving back now you are moving forward).
You have control of your attack and your movement it is the lack of camera control that affects your overall gameplay experience.
With what you guys have suggested having to have your camera on the tank, you won't be able to look away or focus is pulled back to it every few seconds for a duration. If you use Temp player camera the movement will feel clunky akin to pubg since it isn't your true camera, as your actual camera is forced to face the tank. You are simply using your key to look around since your actual camera is forced to look at the tank for the duration and attack the direction only what taunts you.
Pubg is free will take like 10 min to download. If you use the Alt button and move with your WASD you will see what I'm talking about for that with movement.
I am not talking about temp player camera, why are you bringing it up?
I don't see what temp player camera has to do with this conversation.
Is this because you are talking about 'Playing Ashes primarily in Action Reticle mode' and don't want this effect because it would be troublesome then? I don't think it's unreasonable to have effects that one counters by 'entering Tab Target mode' in a hybrid game.
If there is no tempt player camera than you are looking in one direction towards the tank and can not change it. So there is no redirecting.
And yes hard disagree if something is designed to be bad and force you in tab that isn't a solution. We can also go the other way where it forces you out of tab into action view.
Designing skills to ruin the experience in certain modes should not be a thing.
Greystone's Ultimate heals him and makes him immune and invincible but unable to attack for a bit, but then does AoE damage around him. The almost universal best response is to run away from him as fast as possible before the AoE goes off. You can't hurt him, and most builds certainly do 'fear' getting caught in that AoE unnecessarily.
I feel like this is the kind of stuff that Mag wants for tanks (but in reverse of course). Smth that doesn't directly influence the player, but kinda "makes" them take an action that the attacker wants.
Designing skills to ruin the experience in certain modes should not be a thing.
But I feel like they'll inevitably exist, due to the hybrid nature of the system. If only one mode is more optimal to use - those who prefer the other mode will complain that the game is unfair to them. So the only fair thing would be to design the system in a way where people have to use both modes throughout their gameplay.
Btw, does Predecessor have fear-type effects? Cause I'd be interested in seeing how they work there, if they do. @Mag7spy same question for smite as well, cause I forgot to ask this when we were talking about those 2 games.
Not that I'm aware of, there are a lot of unique effects in the game though including ones that make you feel drunk, pull you around and such. But the game is designed different and with 5v5 in mind. There is more leeway for some effects to be stronger and have someone just die because they get hit by a ult that effects a large area.
Though there can be inspiration to take from mobas there are some things that are not realistic. Aka having a ult move that chains everyone around you in a large aoe and pulls everyone to one spot and cc 's them. Or giant aoe black hole cc everyone in a large area not letting anyone move, etc.
Comments
So the point is to ruin the action camera so they have to go tab to not deal with it? do you see what the issue is here? I keep saying you are ruining the experience with a skill like that, to decide to not use it shows that is exactly the case.
Again why choose the worse possible way to do it, and not have a more organic way to taunt through smart design?
And NW barely had a trinity. And had 5-person parties. And had 0 proper supports iirc. While L2 had almost the exact same archetype composition as Ashes will.
Yes, party setups will vary and differ, but tanks would have to be absolutely fucking insanely OP for majority of parties to have 2 tanks in their setup. And imo a CC-based tank that "forces" his enemies to target him (through the usage of said CCs) would be much worse than a tank who can just directly taunt a target but not too much on top of that (outside of obvious protective abilities).
We have no clue how many people would even play in action mode 100% of their time. Out of all of those, we don't know which class would be the most prominent amongst those people and whether that class would be the main target for a tank (let alone several).
And I know that people get focused in wars, but as I said, a single person doesn't matter in a party-based fight. The party is the unit - not its singular members. If only one member of the party is being singled out by several enemy parties - that means that those parties can be attacked by their enemies at uneven ratios. In my experience this usually leads to failures.
But even in that context, as I've said, in my 12 years of playing a mass pvp game - I've never seen someone being super focused by tanks from several parties. At most it'd be 3 members of one party that have aggro abilities. But even then this would usually be an absolute waste of resources, which led to failures, because if 3/9 of your members are trying to control a single enemy - the remaining 8 enemies are fucking your own party.
I'm mainly talking about a direct taunt ability. Other skills will probably have aggro values on them for pve, but they wouldn't be "taunts". At least not in pvp.
As for aoes, I've already talked about it. They can be designed and balanced around their pvp applications. Their range could be super small in pvp or their pvp power could be small enough for most classes to resist them with stats (if taunts are based on them), or any other potential solution to your perceived problem with them.
Yes, the point is to keep the game a hybrid. Solution to problems should come from the whole game, not just from one place. I'd expect some tab problems to be solved with action camera mode, so it'd be only logical to have action problems that can be solved with tab mode.
Just as I approach this discussion a bit too much from the tab perspective, you seem to approach it a bit too much from the action one. Ashes is not an action game. If anything, it's way closer to a tab one and will quite likely have a ton of problems that would be solved through tab mode.
One of those is Fear, which was mentioned in those reddit threads. What is your opinion on fear in action combat? Cause that is literally taunt but in reverse, except even worse. You completely lose control of your character while it runs away from the enemy. I'd imagine that you hate Fear effects as well, if you dislike camera-moving taunts this much, right?
p.s. I'm going to sleep now so will respond tomorrow.
This goes both ways between the camera and the character being pulled and the overall function of it. I feel you are reading into it trying to find a way that people are ok with taunts like this for a mmorpg. If people dislike it they dislike it at the end of the day. Like i said before you aren't getting a majority we are talking about 1 character out of 100 others, information and comments are going to be spread over a lot of things. If you are expecting a ton of complains on a small portion of the game with a older character this does not make a lot of sense.
This is again why you go based on design and how it impact things , if this was a new character it be easier to find information and more view points on it since it be at a point where more people talk about it. As i said before in a mmorpg with less class choices you will run into tanks far more meaning increased issues if it is designed badly.
Tanks don't need to be op for this, there is going to be body blocking and such, and we don't know how things will play out. NW had a trinity but it doesn't change the types you had in wars regardless with some of the bad design with the game. Mages had big aoe dmg, rng had your single target dmg, brusier with aoe, dps and were chunky, healers with broken levels of healing.
Until the game comes out assuming there isn't going to be more tanks and bruiser types shouldn't be set in stone. Based no my experience front line is pretty important, even more so since it will be hybrid.
So if by chance a skill that is based more on aggro than doing anything else is fine to be useless in pvp?
If we hare having wars with a large mount of peoples the aoe skills are going to be more far effective even more so. (im not even talking about the 250vrs 250) 25v25 or 50v50 is enough to mention how annoying something that would be. Which with a few tanks you are now applying taunt camera affects to an even large amount of people, not making it just a few but now escalating it (which also raises the question if the aoe is smaller what is the point of it in PvE, is it to just aggro two mob together. It sounds like it would be something that needs more range to be effective as a tank skill for pve. This is me assuming the range in close melee rng where you get the aoe taunt).
Yes I'm sure you can get resist for a lot of things, so that doesn't change the effect of the skill when it does work. If the idea is to make it a lot less effective in pvp or most people resist it I'd have to ask why. If the answer has to do how annoying it is for effecting players why have it to begin with why not come up with another solution? Anytime the idea make it not happen often it feels like that is done because how badly it creates as an experience for players which is my point.
I believe their point is for people to cater to peoples play styles within reason, not to have them forcefully switching because they have to. As well as keep fluidity of combat like they talked about in the combat showcase with melee wanting to make sure you felt in control.
I've never got the idea they are trying to create problems, they are trying to solve them and of course it is more work having action elements. I don't see why they would add a new problem just to force the sake of taunt working on player to force their camera. In fact we are going moving away from it working the exact same as a pve mob simply because of the strength and removing the ability to actually have fun in things start controlling your game for you (showing a clear connection). So this kind of feels like we will have taunts but kind of not the same because a normal taunt would be not fun to begin with kind of situation.
I'm point out issues with action camera being an actual mechanical issue with WASD movement while not controlling your camera no one as refuted. The answer so far being just use tab instead.
Ashes is hybrid until they say other wise, the argument Ashes has tab is not a justification to make the mechanical elements of action camera worse for the sake of having a taunt working on players in a way the adjust their camera.
It is funny that i can literally look at this the opposite and be like if you get taunted and are forced to retarget something else (on the field with all the people you can barely tell where they are and need to go pixel hunting for lack of better word) you can rely on action combat to attack where you want. Still will feel clunky for tab side of things though which i still feel as a issue with forced retarget.
Also on a note about a lot of L2 features, I want ashes to be ashes it does not need to carbon copy old games or old issues in games, or old concepts that would create issues with modern game design. The last thing i need is people lookat at ashes drawing to much old and reverting back (i dont see this happening ever i only see ashes being more of a modern mmorpg) And people start comparing it to Throne and Liberty, that game should be wake up call to everyone (though im still going to play it since i got nothing else to do, but the game itself is making me break my back to convince people to try it not going to derail into that though).
Fear is very aids as well, fine for pve mobs to have that skill but meh. It it was a ultimate I think id be fine with that on a longer cooldown. Though personally i don't think I'd do mush push back against fear, mostly might be used for griefing as well but should have a competent cooldown
There is a difference though in taunt compared to fear. Taunt forced camera to a player and based on PvE I'm sure it is expected to taunt far more often as well as more skills in relation to having taunt on it. Rather than running away from a target you are forced to look at a target, in the taunt we are talking about it only affects your camera meaning it feels clunky because you have partial control where fear you have 0 control being more akin to a moving hard cc with fear.
And again to extra point this out, the use of fear compared to taunt for CD should almost not be comparable. Meaning you are taunting far more than someone could ever fear. Now if we are talking about a class that can fear as often as they taunt that be very very annoying. Anytime you approach someone you just get feared, it be a very good strat to get people killed to mobs though without going red and actively try to get raids to wipe. But that is another story for another day.
@NiKr
But neither are you - Intrepid makes that decision.
As such, we should be assuming that if they add this to the game, they will make this duration what they consider an acceptable amount of time.
Basically, this is only a point ti argue if there is no acceptable amount of time - but there is. Design taunts to not work on an enemy that has a primary tank target. As such, if I am already going after a tank, I am immune to taunts of other tanks.
There are minor alterations to that needed to prevent cheesing the mechanic, but they are minor. Why would we assume people aren't going after the tank?
If the idea of this is to make players want to go after the tank first, then being taunted on to the tank should tell you to go after the tank.
As for moving, character movement will need to be independent of camera movement. You will need to be able to move your character on one direction while looking in a different direction. As such, there is no reason at all for a change in camera direction (ie, being taunted) to alter the direction in which you are running. If you are running in a direction holding W down and get taunted, your camera should change direction, but your character should remain running in the same direction it was. Yes, some action games dont allow for your camera and character to be facing different directions, but many do. The spatial awareness needed to he able to control your character and camera as individual entities is a fairly basic MMO skill - even in tab target games.
That said, the only time you realistically should be running and have your camera taunted to a substantially different direction is if you are running away from a fight. If you are actually fighting, the change in direction wont very often be more than 45 degrees. If you are fighting properly by going after the tanks first, you wont ever have a change in direction of your camera.
Players will literally have the ability to be permanently immune to having their camera being moved on them. All they need to do is go after the tank first.
Since the idea of the whole thing is to make it so players would chose to go after the tank first (and force those who try not to), it would seem to me that it is having the desired effect.
Yes they are the one that decides the time, and why i say assuming it is 10 seconds is not correct. WE will know when the game is in a more complete state with their balancing.
That is a possibilities they create custom elements based on archetypes people are fighting. Be it worth it to force a taunt to work in this kind of way that is again ruining player experience, that is debatable.
This doesn't make players go after the tank it becomes a cc that is annoying yes but does not make you force the tank. You deal with that clunky cc (again ruining the experience) than continue what you need to do after the random camera pull. If i have a cleric in front of me at 40% and my camera gets pulled tot he tank, why on earth would I then allow the cleric get away at the end of the effect?
And you are missing the core of the point of me saying you aren't focusing the tank. Being multiple tanks on the field, being camera pulled by a tank 30 meters away in a crowd of people is what I mean. You aren't focusing the tank, we should be here assuming that is the case. I feel you think this idea is a banger but again you are just forcing down a pve mechanic on players int he worse possible way.
Going to really focus on this point for 2 seconds, this spills of your mind set being tab focused as your preferred play style. That is not how an action camera works.
Quick picture, showing the direction you are moving in based on action camera. Upon looking in a different direction your camera facing direction will be different meaning your directions will be changing. This compounds if you have an effect that lingers (takes .5-1.5 seconds) until your camera full positions on the new target. During that curved duration your movement is going to feel like you are on ice skates as you are not the one in control of the camera. This compounds the further your camera turns from where you are taunted. Effectively you could be going the opposite direction.
All action mmorpgs have this feature I'm pretty certain, and survival games that are third person where you can look around and it doesn't affect your moving position. Though this isn't the case if you are talking about being affected by forced camera control. Though if you advocated for it, it would again compound more clunky feelings to taunt. You are further moving where the player goes and moves even more so by forcing them to run in a set direction. Im most likely not explaining this well enough but it isn't a good thing either. It be like in Pubg if at random points that took effect while you were in a fight and your movement is limited. Moving while the camera is doing this in action camera feels very bad, its mainly for looking back as you run in one direction. This wouldn't work under a taunt effect though either way.
I really don't like this concept you are pushing "you need to go after tanks first" and that is the mind set everyone has to have. All the points seem to step off that, players should do what they want to do, not be shoe horned by bad mechanics that you need to hit a tank first.
Again there are other ways to approach this to create more organic ways to accomplish this that have taunts work in the worse way possible on players. Force camera control is not making anyone only attacking a tank you are giving players a way that will ruin the experience. This feels like a very PvE mind set and not one based on PvP. There are going to be multiple tanks in PvP in large scale, with all kinds of taunts this isn't going to be fun for anyone.
I go about this in my other post, long story short though there isn't just going to be one tank so they wont be immune. The idea of making the game annoying to play to try to force attacks on a tank doesn't sound like good design, and this wont really work you just deal with the annoying part then go amount your business killing who you want to kill.
I'm sure you'd say that it could do so w/o panning the camera, but, considering that action mode will give us a much smaller fov of the battlefield, you'd have to move your camera a lot either way when you get taunted. And I'd prefer if the game helped me find my enemy in a big fight. Though I doubt this would really be a problem for me, cause I'll be playing at full tab zoom out most of the time
Except it already has a shitton of stuff from L2, so anyone who knows that game will compare the two. Not like there's that many people who even know L2. Open world pvp is an old design. Death penalties is an old design. Long leveling is an old design. No party finder is an old design. And I'm sure there's a few other old designs that I'm forgetting right now.
Ashes will be called "an old mmo" whether you like it or not. Well, unless they literally change all of that shit
And just as fear has to be properly balanced so as to not be seen as op - the taunt will be too. Also, you like to say that you'll be taunted by 20 tanks in all kinds of directions. What about 20 fear-having classes from 20 directions then? I'd assume either mage or bard will have direct fear debuffs. And I'm almost sure that any party will have AT LEAST a mage and a bard. Most likely several of either or even of both. At that point each party will, potentially, have several fear-having classes that can properly stagger their casts and have you running all over the place w/o a single shred of character control.
Tanks do none of that.
But you said that you see fear as aids as well, so I think the main issue here is not that taunt is clunky, but just the fact that you dislike these kinds of mechanics by default. Others don't seem to do that. That's it. So unless Intrepid make a dev discussion about the "you lose control of your character" mechanics (btw @Vaknar please do) - we won't know how many people agree with you on this.
So on this point I don't see any reason to continue this discussion (personally speaking). I'm sure Noaani can entertain you for a few more pages though
Even in tab target games, this is "one way" the camera works. In fact, it is the way the camera works most of the time in a tab target game. However, it is not the only way it works. In many games, holding the right mouse button down de-syncronizes character and camera movement, with character movement being left with wasd, and camera movement being controlled with the mouse.
Again, being able to move your character in a straight line while looking in many different directions is a key player skill for MMORPOG's. There is no reason this player skill can not be present when a player in is action camera mode.
Sure, your attacks would still go in the direction your camera is facing, but that is the point. If you are taunted, you can only attack the character that taunts you for the duration, hence your camera pointing at them. That is literally the desired function here - however you can still run in what ever direction you want.
In most MMO PvP, the meta right now is to go for the healers first. If you don't kill the healers, they will just keep whoever you do go after alive - iobviously.
Players don't really have an option, in most games that is what you need to do to win.
All this suggestion does is shift that to needing to go to the tanks first - which realistically is where it should be.
Now, there are obviously more tricks to it than just alwaysgoing after the tank - you may want to find a way to get a burst DPS class through to take out a healer or two, or perhaps a top performing DPS or a support. The key point there though, is that you can't just go strqaight after those more vulnerable classes, because the tank is essentially excercising zone of control between you and them.
Yeah, and if you and your group or raid go after them first, you are all essentially immune to their taunts.
Yeah they would be immune.
Again, if you are targeting a character with tank primary, you shouldn't be able to be taunted off of them. The idea of taunts here is to encourage players to go after tanks first, so if you are going after a tank you shouldn't be able to be taunted off. Any otheir effects on a taunt ability should take hold, just not the actual taunt component.
This being possible is counter to the entire point.
This is why I'm saying tab mentality, it is going to be a clunky feature that isn't in the game and put in for no reason. Who taunted you needs to have a very obviously mark you will be able to tell apart in a group even if there is 20 people around. Using action camera you need to be aware of what is going on and look for yourself you don't need someone else to force and dot hat for you.
We are at the point where we are going to say when taunted you do almost no dmg to player players? You are effectively taking the effect from other mmorpgs including swtor and being like raising 30% to 90%. These don't sound like good mechanics to me and I have not seen them exist in other games ever. Mind set you need to attack tank no matter what first does not make sense to me trying to force it in this way that isn't organic. So meta will be people running tanks taunting people and kiting making it so as many people can't do dmg as possible, plus other cc and body blocking. Im sensing things will be not fun for large scale with ideas like this being added
This is not what i mean by old design, i mean gameplay elements that feel clunky or issues in past game in relation to gameplay around combat as well as pure tab target. Leveling, open world pvp, death penalities are not things I'm talking about with old design.
Here is the thing I explained before but maybe it didn't reach well enough or was missed.
Taunt - Purpose of taunt in pve is to keep aggro which means you need to be prepared for a lot of mobs and to use it constantly having multiple tools to do so (though generally this is better through aggro taunts are a more boring way of approaching it imo). Which means your tuants will be coming back faster, you are going to have long range taunts and you will have aoe taunts to suppose the difficult element of PvE and keeping your team alive as the holy trinity of being a tank. Meaning you will have constant access to your taunt very often. This mind set of forcing a mechanic designed around pve and giving it very powerful effects or very annoying effects means the frequency of it will be extreme on applying it to players.
Fear is not part of the holy trinity, you can compare it to sleep, with that having a longer CD, fear and taunt are not even comparable in the assumption of what will be used more based on the design.
If you think others don't like clunky camera effects and controlling your character (even more so being put into the game for no reason) you are very mistaken. A ton of people would dislike the way you outlined implementing some of these things. My guild as well feels it be extremely cancer.
When it comes to losing character control or forced camera movement people are far more sensitive to that, even more so as they play. I get you are mainly tab focused so that is not a issue for you, but I'm letting you know this is a giant landmine.
@NiKr
No it isn't, that is never how it works in action camera in mmorpgs, that is how it works in tab mmorpgs....
Left click and right click are both used for combat in action camera mmorpgs. You generally would hold control or such to move your camera around without being clocked on your character. (you can re-keybind but than you are losing one of your attacks, which is not a normal rebind).
Using the button that shifts your camera in a third person action camera to look around is extremely clunky. If you have played these other games you would be well aware of that. You are actually creating a 3 camera issue again for no reason there are better ways to approach this. (taunt camera, player camera, temp player adjusted camera)
So this is extreme tab mind set, are you are effectively making it worse than i thought if you are suggesting for the duration you can only attack towards the direction of the tank. This sounds fully like you are removing action camera and forcing tab playstyle on it. I'm unsure what this duration is going be be im assuming 2-3 seconds effect which brings a bunch of issues.
1. Extreme clunky feeling added to a game for 0 reason instead of taking a more well thought out approach.
2. again cameras flipping issues with the more degrees you need to turn the faster the camera will move creating a random disorienting effect out of gameplay.
3. Tanks able to use taunts from distances having a strong cc, that CC you in terms of taking your mobility away as you are force turned around. Then requiring plays to press clunky key binds to adjust their camera and see where they are going and have clunky movement do to the controls of temp player camera.
I get you are from Pve and this is a very PvE mind set in making things uni form and the same as PvE but this shouldn't really be the case. It should be the job of the teams to protect their backline, yes everyone needs tools to do their task but that doesn't mean one needs to be killed before you kill the other. This goes for both healers having broken healing so you can't kill tanks, or in your case trying to make them game annoying you you can't do anything but attack tanks.
To focus on "kill tank first" that shouldn't be a thing their control on the battlefield should be fun in a fun aspect with zone control. Taunt isn't really zone control all it is is a cc everyone has something like that, you are just implementing the worse version of a cc that creates clunky gameplay (though if it is a aoe taunt that would be zone control and very annoying). If we look at other games you can view tanks having large slows, creating walls to block people off and sight, of course the norm is a high amount of cc, being able to front line and start the fight off their their dmg reduction so the fights part off in a positive way for the dps and other places so they don't get blown up, etc. They also showed a skill that makes the dmg taken from other be transferred to you in a % another great tank and zone control skill. Idea that tanks need to force people to attack them through hard camera control is kind of absurd, idea that they aren't making a big impact just because people go for healers first isn't true. If you want them to have more impact that can be down without using camera control as a means to do so.
You are going to be taunted all around you, doesn't matter who you are going after your camera is going to be flipped around through the fight by the random taunts on you from all direction when you are off protection. It is a aids mechanic and you aren't going to be immune, you have just said earlier the effect lingers on you and you have to attack them duration the effect you won't be immune to anything. This is a bad idea, you are physically trying to force something that makes the overall experience much worse.
I'm not saying you are taunted right away or during the effect....I'm saying at then end of the effect when the protection is gone be it 5-10 seconds or less potentially. Another tank will be able to use taunt on you and flipping your camera around.
I can think of so many better ways to implement these things that be more interesting lol. At the end of the day i hope they go without taunt and just use aggro while having great zone control effects for pvp and pve. Taunt is boring.
@Noaani
That explains so much.
Change the setting to 'Attack In Character Facing Mode' to solve the problem, Mag.
EDIT: Nvm, I knew BDO kinda didn't have this setting but turns out that New World doesn't have it either so I'll just assume most games Mag plays don't have it.
Mag7 for your data, a lot of other games have 'attack in direction character is facing' as a setting you can use and players of those games build up a specific skill related to spatial awareness where they can fluidly adjust the camera to keep it on their target while moving in the direction they want in a gradient.
For an example, see recent Monster Hunter games, where the character attacks in their facing direction and the player controls the Camera separately.
I, too, don't know why you're still writing, Mag. It's not that people don't understand your points, it's that no one here agrees with them. It wouldn't matter how much more you typed if no one in the conversation agrees.
But we're definitely not 'misunderstanding' you.
As I have said in each of my last three posts, and you have quoted, if you are targeting a character with tank primary, you shouldnt be able to he taunted off of them. The idea of this is to encourage players to go after tanks first in PvP, and so if that is what you are doing, there is no need for you to be able to be taunted off.
Thus, in effect, if you are attacking a tank, you are immune to taunts from everyone.
I don't think we will because you want to impact it is on and only one way and aren't open to ways that don't impact the mechanics of the gameplay negatively. You got like 100 other ways to go about it but you want the one way that is not common place in games for clear reasons. Which you said tab could be a solution which shows it isn't a good idea to begin with.
So ill stick to my points and i guess we leave it at that.
You always attack in facing direction that is not what I'm talking about though. If you were to hold ctrl and attack you would be attacking int he facing direction of your attack. This is not what I'm talking about at all. Im saying when you have something effecting your camera not in your control at random points it will feel clunky or while you are holding ctrl to swap your camera it will feel clunky. Mmorpgs have this, pubg has this, other survival games or 3rd person has this.
Oh, and this doesn't require any button presses or anything, you just gotta have enough skill to adjust to the changes of your surroundings on the fly. But I'm sure you'll still consider it clunky.
This is literarily not what I'm talking about lol. I play a lot of types of games and know how different cameras work. I even explained this with pictures and referenced other games.
Play Pubg and adjust the camera and with the alt button and try to move with WASD. Pubg is free so it wont cost you money.
I'm starting to chalk this up to stubbornness and trying to understand what I'm talking about with cameras, do to the few of you wanting one way and refusing to see anything else which to me is wild.
Again Player camera, tempt player camera (the one you can adjust to look around), Player camera control by enemy.
You direction you move in is based on player camera, if enemy controls the camera it affects the direction you move in, so if camera down a 180 flip you will move forward instead of backwards based on your original desired direction. Temp player camera does not control the direction of where you attack or what direction you move. Your attacks will be linked to camera so the direction the player cameras is facing or how the enemy is controlling is. Hence move meant will feel clunky since you are not in around and your camera is being forced to face in certain directions reducing your effective moment and the point of using action camera.
This is not a good feature, I don't think you understand how much you are actually ruining the experience of a player. But if you plan to be in tab most the time, and have mostly played tab games this is where i'm saying the bias comes into play not understanding how it will feel. Azherae playing a lot says she is fine with clunky games so i can't say anything to that. But you think the normal player is going to be fine, again people hate losing control, this is the worse way to lose control.
Ok I think there might be something akin to progress here.
In some games I play, the direction of the character's movement is entirely separate from the camera facing except when aiming reticle based shots (which pause the character and snap their facing to the camera facing).
I always move the camera to face whatever I want to attack anyway, and then when I want to make an attack at the camera position I press... W and the attack button. Or I tap W and press the attack button. Or if it is reticle based and 'snaps to facing' then I just press the attack.
I entirely agree that if I am moving let's say 'diagonal backward strafe' away from a Ranger with my camera on that Ranger, and I then get taunted by a Tank directly on the other side of me from that Ranger, and my camera spins, I will, for about 12 frames minimum, end up moving diagonally away from the tank and therefore slightly closer to the Ranger. My camera view will now be on the Tank. I probably still know where the ranger is and I switch to pressing diagonal forward for some Diagonal Progression toward the Tank to maintain my direction.
I can no longer attack the Ranger with my reticle-targeted ranged abilities unless I reorient myself. I must now move the camera 180 while blending the movement of my character to counter the camera movement. I consider this still having control of my character, but definitely not my camera (since I'm just resetting a change anyway, I am reasserting control relative to my goal).
From what I understand, the part you have the problem with is the 12 frames, not the 'blending of camera movement with direction changes to retain the direction you are moving while doing the 180 camera turn'.
Is that right?
And I'm completely fine with this mechanic. And would like if tank taunts did the same in Ashes
What I think is that Ashes will utterly fail to attract any kind of "normal" player. At this point in time I truly believe that. I've watched several doomer videos about the state of mmos (and gaming in general) and I saw quite a few people thinking that Ashes will somehow save the genre. I'm 95% sure it will not only fail at doing that, but will also get shit on by the majority of current gamers.
And I'm saying this even in the context of Intrepid somehow pulling off the best possible combat in the entire genre (which I'm 70% sure they won't be able to do). Just today Asmon did a reaction to LA's current state and said "people put up with the shitty design of the game due to its cool combat" (which afaik also applies to BDO). But even that "putting up" is kinda dwindling, cause over 90% of players have left the game. I'm almost sure that Ashes will be in the same spot, even if they somehow manage to counter any and all bots.
So with all that being said, I really don't think that forced camera movement will somehow be the biggest reason for people to leave the game. I'm sure there'd be at least a few people that do, but nowhere near majority.
I personally don't want to be a glorified bard when I play a tank. And I expect bards to be the main CC-having archetype. Tank's goal is to prevent his party from taking damage. That comes in the way of defensive actions (usually that's buffs, but I've been a loud proponent of action-based directional blocks of incoming dmg) and redirection of damage. In pve redirection comes from aggroing mobs, which in turn leads to tanks having multiple abilities with aggroing effects and a direct taunt whose whole purpose is to interact with the mob's vector of attacks.
And I'd prefer if that taunt wasn't just a pve tool, because I want to use everything I have in pvp as well. I wanna cast a taunt on a player and go "look at me, I am your target now"
Party, we need to consider the time it takes for the camera to turn during that turn arch your character will be moving "feeling akin to being drunk" and at the end of the turn from the taunt you would be moving full in a backwards position of intention from before (aka if you were moving back now you are moving forward).
You have control of your attack and your movement it is the lack of camera control that affects your overall gameplay experience.
With what you guys have suggested having to have your camera on the tank, you won't be able to look away or focus is pulled back to it every few seconds for a duration. If you use Temp player camera the movement will feel clunky akin to pubg since it isn't your true camera, as your actual camera is forced to face the tank. You are simply using your key to look around since your actual camera is forced to look at the tank for the duration and attack the direction only what taunts you.
Pubg is free will take like 10 min to download. If you use the Alt button and move with your WASD you will see what I'm talking about for that with movement.
I am not talking about temp player camera, why are you bringing it up?
I don't see what temp player camera has to do with this conversation.
Is this because you are talking about 'Playing Ashes primarily in Action Reticle mode' and don't want this effect because it would be troublesome then? I don't think it's unreasonable to have effects that one counters by 'entering Tab Target mode' in a hybrid game.
None that I'm aware of, but remember that Knockback can replace it for faster paced games. So as example, playing Sevarog, I would consider 'induce fear and cause your opponent to run under your tower' to be similar to what I do now, huge knockup-knockback to put them there personally by my own positioning.
I can see the distinction though.
Predecessor normally does that by forcing it another way, their newest character is one you'd like.
Greystone's Ultimate heals him and makes him immune and invincible but unable to attack for a bit, but then does AoE damage around him. The almost universal best response is to run away from him as fast as possible before the AoE goes off. You can't hurt him, and most builds certainly do 'fear' getting caught in that AoE unnecessarily.
But a ranged character outside of the range of it wouldn't move, so there's that nuance. Etc.
I do not expect that this effect would make it into the game because it doesn't generally have CC that lasts longer than usually 80 frames maximum (Sevarog's Colossal Blow previously mentioned, Countess' ult previously discussed) and 80f of 'runs away from target' isn't that meaningful in higher mobility games unless the effect can force the character to use movement skills too.
It might be cool as a "This thing makes you run away from them and also gives you a movespeed buff while doing it'.
SMITE may have some.
If there is no tempt player camera than you are looking in one direction towards the tank and can not change it. So there is no redirecting.
And yes hard disagree if something is designed to be bad and force you in tab that isn't a solution. We can also go the other way where it forces you out of tab into action view.
Designing skills to ruin the experience in certain modes should not be a thing.
But I feel like they'll inevitably exist, due to the hybrid nature of the system. If only one mode is more optimal to use - those who prefer the other mode will complain that the game is unfair to them. So the only fair thing would be to design the system in a way where people have to use both modes throughout their gameplay.
Not that I'm aware of, there are a lot of unique effects in the game though including ones that make you feel drunk, pull you around and such. But the game is designed different and with 5v5 in mind. There is more leeway for some effects to be stronger and have someone just die because they get hit by a ult that effects a large area.
Though there can be inspiration to take from mobas there are some things that are not realistic. Aka having a ult move that chains everyone around you in a large aoe and pulls everyone to one spot and cc 's them. Or giant aoe black hole cc everyone in a large area not letting anyone move, etc.