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Casual vs. hardcore players as seen by Steven

Raven016Raven016 Member
in General Discussion
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Game_balance#Casual_vs._hardcore_players
Traditionally in MMORPGs you're going to see a larger population of casual players than you do of hardcore players; and that's just the way the cookie crumbles from a population standpoint. And because of that and the way that nodes collect experience and advance as a result of player activity, those casual players will actually have more impact on node progression than the hardcore players will: at least as I predict, because of the sheer quantity disproportionate between the two different groups of people... You may see in Ashes the smaller hardcore group of players progress further into the late-game content, right. But they don't have the numbers to influence the nodes in those locations as quickly as the more casual... larger population has near the outskirts.[35] – Steven Sharif

Casual players must have hope.
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Comments

  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Except all those casuals might not exist to help. So the game will have to downscale its requirements and the hardcore will be completely fine. Intrepid themselves will just have to be fine with the profits they get off of those hardcore players.
  • FantmxFantmx Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    And what do those casuals do?
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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Hopefully those casuals all get a piece of the pie.
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  • ClintHardwoodClintHardwood Member, Alpha Two
    Steven really said casuals can't play farmville smh.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Pve isn't farmville mate. Pve is half of pvx lol.
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  • CawwCaww Member, Alpha Two
    Player populations are key to any successful game and most gamers have spurts of high activity and then need to slow down due to RL, very few can be hardcore all the time and they themselves turn in to the interested and steady casual - the backbone of all successful games.
  • SathragoSathrago Member, Alpha Two
    Fantmx wrote: »
    And what do those casuals do?

    Well everyone complaining about not having access to freeholds due to the restrictions probably wouldnt even get to use them in the first place. They are where the end game crafting/processing is right? So most casuals wont even get to that point, and if they do they are probably not casuals considering the amount of time it takes to get max level.

    If you want access make friends or join a guild with what you need. People are saying only the people in the family will be able to use a freehold, but that is completely untenable and I can almost guarantee that family members will have the power to let their friends and guildmates use the freehold crafting/processing stations.

    I will at least say that if the above is not planned then it is too restrictive, but I can't see a world were Steven doesn't see this and address it properly.
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    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • Raven016Raven016 Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    Except all those casuals might not exist to help. So the game will have to downscale its requirements and the hardcore will be completely fine. Intrepid themselves will just have to be fine with the profits they get off of those hardcore players.
    Isn't it already downscaled?
    They make this game for profit?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Except all those casuals might not exist to help. So the game will have to downscale its requirements and the hardcore will be completely fine. Intrepid themselves will just have to be fine with the profits they get off of those hardcore players.

    So, what you are saying is that Intrepid may have to make the games node progression easier to appease us pesky hardcore players?

    The irony!
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Raven016 wrote: »
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Game_balance#Casual_vs._hardcore_players

    Traditionally in MMORPGs you're going to see a larger population of casual players than you do of hardcore players; and that's just the way the cookie crumbles from a population standpoint. And because of that and the way that nodes collect experience and advance as a result of player activity, those casual players will actually have more impact on node progression than the hardcore players will: at least as I predict, because of the sheer quantity disproportionate between the two different groups of people... You may see in Ashes the smaller hardcore group of players progress further into the late-game content, right. But they don't have the numbers to influence the nodes in those locations as quickly as the more casual... larger population has near the outskirts.[35] – Steven Sharif
    Fantmx wrote: »
    And what do those casuals do?

    Old Steven gets it. I think Current Steven just forgot along the way.

    Sathrago wrote: »
    If you want access make friends or join a guild with what you need. People are saying only the people in the family will be able to use a freehold, but that is completely untenable and I can almost guarantee that family members will have the power to let their friends and guildmates use the freehold crafting/processing stations.

    I will at least say that if the above is not planned then it is too restrictive, but I can't see a world were Steven doesn't see this and address it properly.

    I'd wager most casual players are in guilds. Some large, some small. The true solo player is a rare creature.

    And as for access to friends and guildies, maybe? Don't count on it though. I couldn't see a world where freeholds became this scarce and exclusive and impossible to obtain for casual players, even those in big guilds, because it goes against what Old Steven was saying.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Raven016 wrote: »
    Isn't it already downscaled?
    They make this game for profit?
    I meant the node decay point requirements and other systems like that. Iirc Intrepid answered the question of "what if a server doesn't have 10k actives all the time?" and they said "the system will adjust". So if a server only has 2k players on it at all times - the system will just downscale to the proper requirements, so that the entire damn game doesn't just fail to work.
  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
    Casuals don't even have reasons to fight in node wars. They can't participate in guild wars. What else are they gonna do? Farm mats to sell for cheap prices? Because remember guilds own the market, so they set up prices.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Casuals don't even have reasons to fight in node wars. They can't participate in guild wars. What else are they gonna do? Farm mats to sell for cheap prices? Because remember guilds own the market, so they set up prices.
    Demand drives prices. If big guilds are preoccupied with farming big stuff and fighting other big guilds for it they won't have time to farm all the low tier mats that they'll need for crafting. And, if the crafting pyramid is set up correctly, they'll need a ton of those mats. So the demand across the whole server will be fairly high.

    Casuals will just farm whatever they can/want and then sell it for good relative prices. Relative to their needs of course, because someone who only has time to cut a few dozen trees and pick up a few tomatoes once a night wouldn't need millions of gold to enjoy the game.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Casuals don't even have reasons to fight in node wars. They can't participate in guild wars. What else are they gonna do? Farm mats to sell for cheap prices? Because remember guilds own the market, so they set up prices.

    How can you not fight in a guild war...you are here dooms day posting making things up because you are mad. All this stuff you are saying literarily makes 0 sense.

    Suddenly casuals can no longer guilds, these are some really bad takes.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZfqaW5klpg
  • MarcetMarcet Member
    how can you be a casual and whine more than a hardcore player
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Casuals don't even have reasons to fight in node wars. They can't participate in guild wars. What else are they gonna do? Farm mats to sell for cheap prices? Because remember guilds own the market, so they set up prices.

    as a casual, i can fight in node wars and castle sieges, as they will happen once a month
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Marcet wrote: »
    how can you be a casual and whine more than a hardcore player

    He isn't a casual, he just wants to complain on forums, /honestly i should be ignoring him since he is making up false information and spreading it around. Its a waste of my time.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZfqaW5klpg
  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Casuals don't even have reasons to fight in node wars. They can't participate in guild wars. What else are they gonna do? Farm mats to sell for cheap prices? Because remember guilds own the market, so they set up prices.
    Demand drives prices. If big guilds are preoccupied with farming big stuff and fighting other big guilds for it they won't have time to farm all the low tier mats that they'll need for crafting. And, if the crafting pyramid is set up correctly, they'll need a ton of those mats. So the demand across the whole server will be fairly high.

    Casuals will just farm whatever they can/want and then sell it for good relative prices. Relative to their needs of course, because someone who only has time to cut a few dozen trees and pick up a few tomatoes once a night wouldn't need millions of gold to enjoy the game.

    I'm sorry but in the real world food is the most required thing ever and farmers get paid shit. So based on previous real data I can confirm that gatheres won't be paid much.
  • FantmxFantmx Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Casuals don't even have reasons to fight in node wars. They can't participate in guild wars. What else are they gonna do? Farm mats to sell for cheap prices? Because remember guilds own the market, so they set up prices.

    Why would they not have a reason to fight in a node war or guild war?
    q1nu38cjgq3j.png
  • Raven016Raven016 Member
    Nerror wrote: »
    Raven016 wrote: »
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Game_balance#Casual_vs._hardcore_players

    Traditionally in MMORPGs you're going to see a larger population of casual players than you do of hardcore players; and that's just the way the cookie crumbles from a population standpoint. And because of that and the way that nodes collect experience and advance as a result of player activity, those casual players will actually have more impact on node progression than the hardcore players will: at least as I predict, because of the sheer quantity disproportionate between the two different groups of people... You may see in Ashes the smaller hardcore group of players progress further into the late-game content, right. But they don't have the numbers to influence the nodes in those locations as quickly as the more casual... larger population has near the outskirts.[35] – Steven Sharif
    Fantmx wrote: »
    And what do those casuals do?

    Old Steven gets it. I think Current Steven just forgot along the way.

    Only now I was able to play the video. @Fantmx @Nerror
    I am somewhat unsure what you guys understand from it.
    Steven is not talking about casuals.
    He is referring to PvX players, players who would be bored by a MOBA style PvP but during sieges, they'll get involved because otherwise would risk losing their freeholds. These would be the peaceful PvE defenders who in Stevens vision become PvX players.
    The attackers in a siege, I presume they are mostly PvP-ers who could play MOBAs but pillaging other player's hard earned valuables feels more rewarding (and meaningful). They could also be PvE players driven by greed and revenge.

    I don't know how the game economy will be balanced.
    If Steven would set the price of freeholds, it could happen that losing one in a siege would be way to painful.
    Letting players to negotiate the price via trade could auto-balance it better than Steven can and would fluctuate depending on the political status on the map. Frequent wars might push prices down.
    I hope there is a gold sink too when sieges happen.
  • VaknarVaknar Member, Staff
    Rest assured that casual players are very important to us! Just as hardcore players are. Casual players and their contributions will still matter plenty on a server. For example, simply participating in many activities in a Node's ZoI, such as questing, gathering, or participating in an event, can contribute to a Node's success. Hardcore players may have an incentive then to support their casual counterparts, as it could benefit everyone! <3
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  • Morg7x7Morg7x7 Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Rest assured that casual players are very important to us! Just as hardcore players are. Casual players and their contributions will still matter plenty on a server. For example, simply participating in many activities in a Node's ZoI, such as questing, gathering, or participating in an event, can contribute to a Node's success. Hardcore players may have an incentive then to support their casual counterparts, as it could benefit everyone! <3

    As a dirty casual I shall work extra hard to unlock the content for my sweaty overlords to enjoy.

  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    you can still enjoy it ;)
  • Nova_terraNova_terra Member, Alpha Two
    Morg7x7 wrote: »
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Rest assured that casual players are very important to us! Just as hardcore players are. Casual players and their contributions will still matter plenty on a server. For example, simply participating in many activities in a Node's ZoI, such as questing, gathering, or participating in an event, can contribute to a Node's success. Hardcore players may have an incentive then to support their casual counterparts, as it could benefit everyone! <3

    As a dirty casual I shall work extra hard to unlock the content for my sweaty overlords to enjoy.

    can't wait for neckbeards and sweat lords to start bossing me around and knocking my lunch tray out of my hands. Just like the teen movies prepared me for.
  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Casuals don't even have reasons to fight in node wars. They can't participate in guild wars. What else are they gonna do? Farm mats to sell for cheap prices? Because remember guilds own the market, so they set up prices.

    Hey Eeyore,

    Casuals can join guilds. Casuals can do sieges. Casuals will fight for their nodes because it is FUN and it is a m*ther*uck*ng game. Casuals will harvest for the joy of finding rares, which will be a significant financial help to them. Casuals will do quests and dungeons. it will be ok.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Rest assured that casual players are very important to us! Just as hardcore players are. Casual players and their contributions will still matter plenty on a server. For example, simply participating in many activities in a Node's ZoI, such as questing, gathering, or participating in an event, can contribute to a Node's success. Hardcore players may have an incentive then to support their casual counterparts, as it could benefit everyone! <3
    @Vaknar

    Cool, so when are you going to showcase what parts of the game casual players can play? Because lately, every showcase has been showing them parts of the game they thought they had access to, and telling them they dont.

    They thought they could make a small boat and said around, but nope. They thought they could farm kibs all day if then - but then the ecology system said nope. So then they thought they could farm their freehold. That also went well for them.

    What's left?
  • MarcetMarcet Member
    Noaani wrote: »
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Rest assured that casual players are very important to us! Just as hardcore players are. Casual players and their contributions will still matter plenty on a server. For example, simply participating in many activities in a Node's ZoI, such as questing, gathering, or participating in an event, can contribute to a Node's success. Hardcore players may have an incentive then to support their casual counterparts, as it could benefit everyone! <3
    @Vaknar

    Cool, so when are you going to showcase what parts of the game casual players can play? Because lately, every showcase has been showing them parts of the game they thought they had access to, and telling them they dont.

    They thought they could make a small boat and said around, but nope. They thought they could farm kibs all day if then - but then the ecology system said nope. So then they thought they could farm their freehold. That also went well for them.

    What's left?

    Cmon man don't do this to him he is just a PR guy, not a developer, he doesn't want to put words on Steven's mouth
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ashes is designed for hardcore gamers who typically play MMORPGs on PvP servers.
    If you love EvE Online, Archeage, Lineage II and the New World Alpha PvP, you will have a great time playing Ashes.
    People who don't love those games probably will not be playing Ashes.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Most PvP servers don't have corruption. Ashes doesn't even have full loot. I feel more people will be at home than you think.
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  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Rest assured that casual players are very important to us! Just as hardcore players are. Casual players and their contributions will still matter plenty on a server. For example, simply participating in many activities in a Node's ZoI, such as questing, gathering, or participating in an event, can contribute to a Node's success. Hardcore players may have an incentive then to support their casual counterparts, as it could benefit everyone! <3
    @Vaknar

    Cool, so when are you going to showcase what parts of the game casual players can play? Because lately, every showcase has been showing them parts of the game they thought they had access to, and telling them they dont.

    They thought they could make a small boat and said around, but nope. They thought they could farm kibs all day if then - but then the ecology system said nope. So then they thought they could farm their freehold. That also went well for them.

    What's left?

    i still dont know what you mean by casuals.
    so if i play one hour a day, i cant go sailing? sure i might get attacked or i might not...but hey there will also be players my own level and we can fight.

    i can also pick flowers the whole day, or mine, i might have to move to a different territory every now and then because of spawn rates, but nothing prevents me from mining or picking the flower, other than people who mined the vein first (like it would happen in any other game).

    if i play 15 hours a day ill still be attacked if i go sailing, and if im in a guild, they might not be ready to help 24/7 as they might be doing other stuff.

    casuals and hardcore have access to everything. but the world is dangerous and everybody is subject to being attacked
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