Among non-mmo pvp games I have played that feeling from a win or the gravity of a loss is incomparable to that of the MMORPG, L2, when knowing the end result of the quick skirmish, a strategtic pk, a planned battle or even unexpected encounter could result in loss or gain of gear that took over a year to obtain, worth in the thousand of dollars if ever did go the RLT route.
You feel the continued pain of your loss by that one pvp death taking 1-3 hours of pve time to regain. And that knowledge of being resurrected in a fight to possibly double or tripple your losses should you die again, all to look after your group or clan.
L2 took the character progression aspect of MMORPG's and reduced it down to almost nothing.
Only someone who never properly played Lineage 2 could ever make such statement, that's just ignorant mate.
Oh I never properly played it. Not even debating that point.
I am going based on information I have gained on these forums from you, NiKr and a few others.
The one thing you all seem to agree on is the amount of effort put in to getting gear upgrades, especially at the top end. Looking over the percentage increase of different upgrades (I don't have the information on that on hand, it was something NiKr posted a while ago), the actual upgrades aren't as big a power gain as in games like EQ, EQ2 or WoW.
Then, add to that the fact that the above three games would often see you get upgrades every week or two and all of a sudden my perspective above should be something that no one considers ignorant. The facts absolutely support the opinion - you can disagree with that opinion if you want, but if facts support it you can't say it is ignorant.
Certainly not information from me, as in this forum back on the Discussion of "Gear (weapons and armor) has approximately a 40-50% influence on a player's overall power in the game." and how meaningful gear power is in MMORPGs i talked about how Gear is insane in Archeage(Around 90-95% of a character's power) and in Lineage 2 that even tho not as insane as Archeage Gear disparity was still Crazy(around 70-75%) in terms of character power progression.
The difference between D Grade and S Grade gear is an abyss of power, especially considering Lineage 2 Stat Multipliers and top gear features. So it's very obvious you don't "have the information on that on hand" nor the numbers context.
The argument about the speed or effort of the upgrades just seems unreasonable in this context, i'd argue harder upgrades make them all the more meaningful for character progression.
Literally none of this is what I am talking about - well, perhaps the speed of upgrades.
Edit to add; if you want to debate the actual facts - that there is more character progression in a game like EQ or EQ2 than in L2, I have a means in mind by which we can work this out - as much as progression comparisons across games can actually work.
I did not argued in any moment that "there is more character progression in a game like L2 Than in EQ/EQ2"
Yeah, but I argued the opposite - and you called that ignorant.
Therefore, you are arguing against what I suggested.
Keep in mind - I am talking about from the perspective of MMORPG's in general. Archeage had comparitively little in the way of character progression in relation to an EQ, EQ2 or WoW. In fact, in the 5 years I played it, it has less progression than the first 6 months of EQ2.
Literally none of this is what I am talking about - well, perhaps the speed of upgrades.
You literally talked about Power Gains in character progression related to gear upgrades, unless you are literally going for things like "Expansions making previous gear COMPLETELY obsolete" or "1000x number power creeps which i find abominable for "character progression" in any MMORPG i will simple have to agree to disagree.
At this point i will literally have to ask you for examples of what you consider actual character progression.
Yeah, but I argued the opposite - and you called that ignorant.
Therefore, you are arguing against what I suggested.
Keep in mind - I am talking about from the perspective of MMORPG's in general. Archeage had comparitively little in the way of character progression in relation to an EQ, EQ2 or WoW. In fact, in the 5 years I played it, it has less progression than the first 6 months of EQ2.
Nope Noaani, You argued "L2 took the character progression aspect of MMORPG's and reduced it down to almost nothing." which is not the opposite of "there is more character progression in a game like L2 Than in EQ/EQ2" which would be a fair statement.
Nope Noaani, You argued "L2 took the character progression aspect of MMORPG's and reduced it down to almost nothing." which is not the opposite of "there is more character progression in a game like L2 Than in EQ/EQ2" which would be a fair statement.
How about "in comparison to EQ or EQ2, L2 took the character progression aspect of MMORPG's and reduced it down to almost nothing."
The discussion was in the context of in comparion to other MMORPG's, even if the post itself wasnt.
Edit to add - a few years ago I looked at an EQ2 item - the stats on that item were ~49.7 times the base stats of a starting character, mana and HP were even higher. It also had cast speed increases, which is nice.
That was one item. The item in question also had an effect on it that amounted to two new class abilities.
On top of that, gear isn't the only means of progression in EQ2. It is one of three means of progression - four if you include basic levels (which I consider a given rather than an aspect of character progression).
Would you say that - in comparison to that - L2's character progression has been reduced to almost nothing?
Nope Noaani, You argued "L2 took the character progression aspect of MMORPG's and reduced it down to almost nothing." which is not the opposite of "there is more character progression in a game like L2 Than in EQ/EQ2" which would be a fair statement.
How about "in comparison to EQ or EQ2, L2 took the character progression aspect of MMORPG's and reduced it down to almost nothing."
The discussion was in the context of in comparion to other MMORPG's, even if the post itself wasnt.
Edit to add - a few years ago I looked at an EQ2 item - the stats on that item were ~49.7 times the base stats of a starting character. That was one item. The item in question also had an effect on it that amounted to two new class abilities.
On top of that, gear isn't the only means of progression in EQ2. It is one of three means of progression - four if you include basic levels (which I consider a given rather than an aspect of character progression).
Would you say that - in comparison to that - L2's character progression has been reduced to almost nothing?
The Starting characters in Lineage 2 have about 3-6 starting physical attack,
the starting one handed sword had around 6 base physical attack and provided nothing more
In the Hellbound version back in ~2008 the the Best one handed Sword had 363 base physical attack
+ 5 Different additional stacking upgrades on top it disconsidering regular enchanting or augmentation.
Nope Noaani, You argued "L2 took the character progression aspect of MMORPG's and reduced it down to almost nothing." which is not the opposite of "there is more character progression in a game like L2 Than in EQ/EQ2" which would be a fair statement.
How about "in comparison to EQ or EQ2, L2 took the character progression aspect of MMORPG's and reduced it down to almost nothing."
The discussion was in the context of in comparion to other MMORPG's, even if the post itself wasnt.
Edit to add - a few years ago I looked at an EQ2 item - the stats on that item were ~49.7 times the base stats of a starting character. That was one item. The item in question also had an effect on it that amounted to two new class abilities.
On top of that, gear isn't the only means of progression in EQ2. It is one of three means of progression - four if you include basic levels (which I consider a given rather than an aspect of character progression).
Would you say that - in comparison to that - L2's character progression has been reduced to almost nothing?
The Starting characters in Lineage 2 have about 3-6 starting physical attack,
the starting one handed sword had around 6 base physical attack and provided nothing more
In the Hellbound version back in ~2008 the the Best one handed Sword had 363 base physical attack
+ 5 Different additional stacking upgrades on top it disconsidering regular enchanting or augmentation.
I hope this is answers your question.
Oh, if you want to talk attacks, EQ2 went from single digit to hundreds of thousands (well, just breaking 6 figures in 2008) in the time period you are talking about, and was up to tens of millions last I looked.
Nope Noaani, You argued "L2 took the character progression aspect of MMORPG's and reduced it down to almost nothing." which is not the opposite of "there is more character progression in a game like L2 Than in EQ/EQ2" which would be a fair statement.
How about "in comparison to EQ or EQ2, L2 took the character progression aspect of MMORPG's and reduced it down to almost nothing."
The discussion was in the context of in comparion to other MMORPG's, even if the post itself wasnt.
Edit to add - a few years ago I looked at an EQ2 item - the stats on that item were ~49.7 times the base stats of a starting character. That was one item. The item in question also had an effect on it that amounted to two new class abilities.
On top of that, gear isn't the only means of progression in EQ2. It is one of three means of progression - four if you include basic levels (which I consider a given rather than an aspect of character progression).
Would you say that - in comparison to that - L2's character progression has been reduced to almost nothing?
The Starting characters in Lineage 2 have about 3-6 starting physical attack,
the starting one handed sword had around 6 base physical attack and provided nothing more
In the Hellbound version back in ~2008 the the Best one handed Sword had 363 base physical attack
+ 5 Different additional stacking upgrades on top it disconsidering regular enchanting or augmentation.
I hope this is answers your question.
Oh, if you want to talk attacks, EQ2 went from single digit to hundreds of thousands in the time period you are talking about, and was up to tens of millions last I looked.
I assume that proves my point.
Yep you certainly proved how insane Power creep is in EQ2, but no worries even Lineage 2 suffered from this issue after NCSoft started destroying the game back in 2011, as of 2023 L2 Characters reach the Tens of Millions and beyond P. Atk/M.Atk with their weapons and can hit for 12+ number digits.
Nope Noaani, You argued "L2 took the character progression aspect of MMORPG's and reduced it down to almost nothing." which is not the opposite of "there is more character progression in a game like L2 Than in EQ/EQ2" which would be a fair statement.
How about "in comparison to EQ or EQ2, L2 took the character progression aspect of MMORPG's and reduced it down to almost nothing."
The discussion was in the context of in comparion to other MMORPG's, even if the post itself wasnt.
Edit to add - a few years ago I looked at an EQ2 item - the stats on that item were ~49.7 times the base stats of a starting character. That was one item. The item in question also had an effect on it that amounted to two new class abilities.
On top of that, gear isn't the only means of progression in EQ2. It is one of three means of progression - four if you include basic levels (which I consider a given rather than an aspect of character progression).
Would you say that - in comparison to that - L2's character progression has been reduced to almost nothing?
The Starting characters in Lineage 2 have about 3-6 starting physical attack,
the starting one handed sword had around 6 base physical attack and provided nothing more
In the Hellbound version back in ~2008 the the Best one handed Sword had 363 base physical attack
+ 5 Different additional stacking upgrades on top it disconsidering regular enchanting or augmentation.
I hope this is answers your question.
Oh, if you want to talk attacks, EQ2 went from single digit to hundreds of thousands in the time period you are talking about, and was up to tens of millions last I looked.
I assume that proves my point.
Yep you certainly proved how insane Power creep is in EQ2
What PvP players call power creep, PvE players call character progression.
Not only is this is kind of my point here - it is the reason for my point.
Nope Noaani, You argued "L2 took the character progression aspect of MMORPG's and reduced it down to almost nothing." which is not the opposite of "there is more character progression in a game like L2 Than in EQ/EQ2" which would be a fair statement.
How about "in comparison to EQ or EQ2, L2 took the character progression aspect of MMORPG's and reduced it down to almost nothing."
The discussion was in the context of in comparion to other MMORPG's, even if the post itself wasnt.
Edit to add - a few years ago I looked at an EQ2 item - the stats on that item were ~49.7 times the base stats of a starting character. That was one item. The item in question also had an effect on it that amounted to two new class abilities.
On top of that, gear isn't the only means of progression in EQ2. It is one of three means of progression - four if you include basic levels (which I consider a given rather than an aspect of character progression).
Would you say that - in comparison to that - L2's character progression has been reduced to almost nothing?
The Starting characters in Lineage 2 have about 3-6 starting physical attack,
the starting one handed sword had around 6 base physical attack and provided nothing more
In the Hellbound version back in ~2008 the the Best one handed Sword had 363 base physical attack
+ 5 Different additional stacking upgrades on top it disconsidering regular enchanting or augmentation.
I hope this is answers your question.
Oh, if you want to talk attacks, EQ2 went from single digit to hundreds of thousands in the time period you are talking about, and was up to tens of millions last I looked.
I assume that proves my point.
Yep you certainly proved how insane Power creep is in EQ2
What PvP players call power creep, PvE players call character progression.
Not only is this is kind of my point here - it is the reason for my point.
Ok got it, Bigger Number = More character progression,
time to reach the Septilions for ultimate character progression.
I certainly have no intention of arguing such unreasonable idea.
And seem that EQ2 and L2 currently hold similar numbers looks like ignorance was the essence of the debate.
Ok got it, Bigger Number = More character progression,
I mean, yeah.
As long as the thing that matters most in combat is reducing the number of health the enemy has to zero before they reduce the amount of health you have to zero, bigger number = more character progression.
Be honest, is that a new piece of information to you?
Edit to add - not that it is some sort of measuring competition, but EQ2 was at the tens of millions years ago - I said last I looked, I've not looked for years. Billions wouldn't surprise me - but I don't know.
That makes the game too much like EvE Online and ArcheAge. Games I have no interest in playing because they are too PvP-centric. And really the same for Lineage II.
I wish it actually was more like Archeage, because you had dedicated PvP zones, that would cycle between peace and war mode. So you could just not go to certain areas if you don't want to PvP.
Ashes will be nothing like that sadly, and it's going to lean much more into PvP, where it can happen anywhere at any time.
I would say they took the features and gave them a proper home.
Match based PvP is far superior than persistent PvP.
It's superior if you want an equalized setting, where people are paired with other players of similar skill level, and where they start out on the same level in terms of power.
However, PvP in MMORPGs just cannot work like that in an open-world setting. And it shouldn't.
Lobby/match based PvP games are nothing like MMORPGs with open-world PvP. It's a completely different experience, for different types of players.
In a persistent world, your character keeps progressing, you can do many different stuff in game, other than PvP, and when you go out into the world, you could go looking for PvP, or you could go looking to do other stuff, like grinding mobs, gathering, etc. The game simply allows you to CHOOSE (sadly it won't let you choose in Ashes).
There are far better genres for PvP gameplay than MMO's.
Sure, the PvP experience might be superior in dedicated lobby based PvP games, but people aren't playing MMORPGs for the PvP experience alone. It's hours of grinding, obtaining the gear, building up your character, designing it's kit, etc. that culminates in PvP experience.
It's also more easily available, as you could just go out and engage in PvP, rather than having to queue up, wait for the match to start, etc. - And then when the match ends, you have to do it all over again. It's just a different experience completely.
So a good PvP system is amazing in MMORPGs. However, it's at its most amazing after the release of the game, because everyone is mostly at around the same level of power.
//
As Archeage, BDO, and other games have shown us, if you're a new player trying to get into it after the game has already been established for a few months/years, your experience is likely to be miserable in PvP.
Ashes will try to at least somewhat improve on that, because your gear won't account for more than ~50% of your total power.
I also think that faction based games are better in a way, compared to what Ashes is trying to do, because I feel the corruption just won't be enough of a deterrent. In faction based games, you at least know you likely won't be attacked by your own faction (except for the games like Archeage, where you can flag up on your own faction), and you're unlikely to encounter the enemy faction unless you go to dedicated PvP zones.
Though they can still pull it off, and design a balanced system.
Imo, it should work in a way where flagging and killing is heavily discouraged, unless you've explicitly chosen the path of being a pirate/or a general menace to society, or if your guild has declared war to another guild, if you're a part of a different faction, etc.
I think there should be a path to become a villain or a pirate, so only those who go down that path could just flag up on anyone at any time.
What's stopping someone from just flagging up to kill someone they know has a full inventory of valuables, if they don't do it regularly? I could just kill someone like that, grind a bit to remove corruption, then do it again tomorrow. Now imagine if half of the playerbase does exactly that...I certainly wouldn't want to play that game.
Then again, that wouldn't really allow for PvP around some key areas, like dungeons or world bosses, so I can confidently say that it will never work like that.
It's superior if you want an equalized setting, where people are paired with other players of similar skill level, and where they start out on the same level in terms of power.
However, PvP in MMORPGs just cannot work like that in an open-world setting. And it shouldn't.
Lobby/match based PvP games are nothing like MMORPGs with open-world PvP. It's a completely different experience, for different types of players.
In a persistent world, your character keeps progressing, you can do many different stuff in game, other than PvP, and when you go out into the world, you could go looking for PvP, or you could go looking to do other stuff, like grinding mobs, gathering, etc. The game simply allows you to CHOOSE (sadly it won't let you choose in Ashes).
All of this is true - but there is a key point to make here.
The only thing an MMO with PvP has over a match based game with PvP is the notion of permanence. The knowledge that if you lose this fight, your rival gains an upper hand that is applied to every fight they have against anyone - and additionally that you stand to lose something. It's the gravity of a loss that Akabear talked about above.
The thing is, this isn't inherently a good thing. It means a loss means you are more likely to lose next time, and a win means you are more likely to win next time.
Now, I'm not saying these are bad things - if you have PvP in an MMORPG, you obviously need to reward the winner. That should go without saying.
What I am saying is that it is these very facts that make PvP not overly suited to the MMORPG genre, where it is perfectly suited to genres that are match based.
It's superior if you want an equalized setting, where people are paired with other players of similar skill level, and where they start out on the same level in terms of power.
However, PvP in MMORPGs just cannot work like that in an open-world setting. And it shouldn't.
Lobby/match based PvP games are nothing like MMORPGs with open-world PvP. It's a completely different experience, for different types of players.
In a persistent world, your character keeps progressing, you can do many different stuff in game, other than PvP, and when you go out into the world, you could go looking for PvP, or you could go looking to do other stuff, like grinding mobs, gathering, etc. The game simply allows you to CHOOSE (sadly it won't let you choose in Ashes).
All of this is true - but there is a key point to make here.
The only thing an MMO with PvP has over a match based game with PvP is the notion of permanence. The knowledge that if you lose this fight, your rival gains an upper hand that is applied to every fight they have against anyone - and additionally that you stand to lose something. It's the gravity of a loss that Akabear talked about above.
The thing is, this isn't inherently a good thing. It means a loss means you are more likely to lose next time, and a win means you are more likely to win next time.
Now, I'm not saying these are bad things - if you have PvP in an MMORPG, you obviously need to reward the winner. That should go without saying.
What I am saying is that it is these very facts that make PvP not overly suited to the MMORPG genre, where it is perfectly suited to genres that are match based.
Yeah, I mostly agree.
The reason you think it might not be overly suited, is only because it's way more difficult to design a good PvP experience in an MMORPG, than in other types of games. It requires way more work to just design a fair system, to manage class balance, etc. etc. And it might very well be the case that it's impossible to make a perfect PvP system, and then I would agree that PvP isn't overly suited to the MMORPG genre.
Well In theory they can participate in sieges. Under the assumption that they are uncapped in terms of players. Any guild would have to be crazy to allow a casual cleric to have a siege spot over their fully kitted cleric who participated in guild activities consistently for 8 months. I don't think most guilds would allow casuals a spot over hardcore players. We saw the same thing happen in other games.
Casuals can participate in sieges, but they will probably be playing some other game that is more casual-friendly than Ashes.
@Dygz it is unrelenting posts about other people than you not wanting to play the game that makes me question your loyalty to the outcome of the game. I think you have stated no less than five times that people will not be playing this game.
Well In theory they can participate in sieges. Under the assumption that they are uncapped in terms of players. Any guild would have to be crazy to allow a casual cleric to have a siege spot over their fully kitted cleric who participated in guild activities consistently for 8 months. I don't think most guilds would allow casuals a spot over hardcore players. We saw the same thing happen in other games.
Casuals can participate in sieges, but they will probably be playing some other game that is more casual-friendly than Ashes.
@Dygz it is unrelenting posts about other people than you not wanting to play the game that makes me question your loyalty to the outcome of the game. I think you have stated no less than five times that people will not be playing this game.
Because when you realize that in 1-2 hours there's not much you can do, you'll stop playing. Gathering? You lose a lot. There's no way out of the PvP. If you're gathering and you get PvPed you have to fight, because if you don't, you lose more mats. You died? You lost mats and xp and time. You didn't fight back? You lost even more mats and time and xp. Enemy gets corruption? It doens't change anything for me, I still lost time. So out of the 2 hours I had, now I might need 3 to get that XP back.
Node wars? Yeah, it's fun. What am I protecting? Because it ain't my land for sure, it's the guild's or richest people's land.
My point is that unless you commit a lot of time, and I might be wrong, but it almost feels like you're a NPC if you're casual. Nothing you do matters.
Well In theory they can participate in sieges. Under the assumption that they are uncapped in terms of players. Any guild would have to be crazy to allow a casual cleric to have a siege spot over their fully kitted cleric who participated in guild activities consistently for 8 months. I don't think most guilds would allow casuals a spot over hardcore players. We saw the same thing happen in other games.
Casuals can participate in sieges, but they will probably be playing some other game that is more casual-friendly than Ashes.
@Dygz it is unrelenting posts about other people than you not wanting to play the game that makes me question your loyalty to the outcome of the game. I think you have stated no less than five times that people will not be playing this game.
Because when you realize that in 1-2 hours there's not much you can do, you'll stop playing. Gathering? You lose a lot. There's no way out of the PvP. If you're gathering and you get PvPed you have to fight, because if you don't, you lose more mats. You died? You lost mats and xp and time. You didn't fight back? You lost even more mats and time and xp. Enemy gets corruption? It doens't change anything for me, I still lost time. So out of the 2 hours I had, now I might need 3 to get that XP back.
Node wars? Yeah, it's fun. What am I protecting? Because it ain't my land for sure, it's the guild's or richest people's land.
My point is that unless you commit a lot of time, and I might be wrong, but it almost feels like you're a NPC if you're casual. Nothing you do matters.
So what would make somebody with little time, to be motivated to protect it's node?
0
Ayeveegaming1Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I like the idea of nodes and the danger that can surround it. It mimics real life. There is security in numbers. If you want to play solo the dangers increase. If you want to play solo then you take that chance in this game. I wonder if there will be stealth builds that would allow cover to be sneaky and snipe nodes, and leave undetected. It could all be very interesting. Some kind of rogue gatherer/miner.
0
FantmxMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2023
At the core of these discussions of casual versus hardcore or pve versus pvp is the concept of player flow. This is the challenge that Ashes of Creation will have in successfully integrating two very different populations into a healthy successful group. It will require a good balance of challenge and opportunities of success across a wide range of skill bases.
Being immersed can be defined as a state of focus in which a person is completely absorbed and engrossed in their work. While in a flow state, people are highly involved and focused on what they are doing.
"The ego falls away. Time flies. Every action, movement, and thought follows inevitably from the previous one, like playing jazz. Your whole being is involved, and you're using your skills to the utmost," Csíkszentmihályi said in an interview with Wired magazine.
Flow experiences can occur in different ways for different people. It often happens when you are doing something that you enjoy and in which you are quite skilled.
Some important concepts where the casual/hardcore and pvp/pve crowds will separate are:
There are clear goals that, while challenging, are still attainable.
People experience feelings of personal control over the situation and the outcome.
People know that the task is doable and there is a balance between skill level and the challenge presented.
Typically an mmorpg would have separate functions for separate groups so that all types of players would have the ability to reach a flow state in a shared world. However Ashes is blending these.
On either side of a flow state is anxiety or boredom. PvP or hardcore players who experience a lack of PvP or hardcore experiences will become bored whereas PvE or casual players who experience too much PvP or hardcore experience will see that as anxiety provoking. Both scenarios lead to the player stopping play and leaving the game.
So this will not be an easy process.
I will say that is where some of my questioning comes from. The more imbalanced the individual experiences become the more likely the overall experience fails.
Well In theory they can participate in sieges. Under the assumption that they are uncapped in terms of players. Any guild would have to be crazy to allow a casual cleric to have a siege spot over their fully kitted cleric who participated in guild activities consistently for 8 months. I don't think most guilds would allow casuals a spot over hardcore players. We saw the same thing happen in other games.
Casuals can participate in sieges, but they will probably be playing some other game that is more casual-friendly than Ashes.
@Dygz it is unrelenting posts about other people than you not wanting to play the game that makes me question your loyalty to the outcome of the game. I think you have stated no less than five times that people will not be playing this game.
Because when you realize that in 1-2 hours there's not much you can do, you'll stop playing. Gathering? You lose a lot. There's no way out of the PvP. If you're gathering and you get PvPed you have to fight, because if you don't, you lose more mats. You died? You lost mats and xp and time. You didn't fight back? You lost even more mats and time and xp. Enemy gets corruption? It doens't change anything for me, I still lost time. So out of the 2 hours I had, now I might need 3 to get that XP back.
Node wars? Yeah, it's fun. What am I protecting? Because it ain't my land for sure, it's the guild's or richest people's land.
My point is that unless you commit a lot of time, and I might be wrong, but it almost feels like you're a NPC if you're casual. Nothing you do matters.
<sigh> Already decided before you even played the game or understand any of the basic systems and dependencies.
I also think that faction based games are better in a way, compared to what Ashes is trying to do, because I feel the corruption just won't be enough of a deterrent. In faction based games, you at least know you likely won't be attacked by your own faction (except for the games like Archeage, where you can flag up on your own faction), and you're unlikely to encounter the enemy faction unless you go to dedicated PvP zones.
Though they can still pull it off, and design a balanced system.
There's a flip side to faction based games though. Every members of the other factions are enemies, generally there are no downside for them attacking you, or you attacking them. Very often, all those who think they can win will attack. It's the "enemy" after all.
Although you're not in combat competition with other members of your own faction, you still have to compete against them for resources, drops, quest mobs, market share, spot in groups/raid, etc.
Factions population imbalances are another downside. How many of WoW Classic PvP servers are so lopsided that they are practically PvE servers?
At the core of these discussions of casual versus hardcore or pve versus pvp is the concept of player flow.
On either side of a flow state is anxiety or boredom. PvP or hardcore players who experience a lack of PvP or hardcore experiences will become bored whereas PvE or casual players who experience too much PvP or hardcore experience will see that as anxiety provoking. Both scenarios lead to the player stopping play and leaving the game.
So this will not be an easy process.
Yes, and going a bit deeper. The flow of Ashes PvX is rooted in resilience, not invincibility. To paraphrase, ‘It’s not about whether I lose my balance, but how quickly I regain it.’
If players have anxiety about what they can lose in a fight (tangible or intangible), success will be defined as ‘never losing.’ This is why open world pvp tends toward zergs and retreat, and will result in the game being more niche.
However, if players can accept that dying or surviving in the open world isn’t winning or losing, it’s just part of the game - then the game will be more fun, and have greater overall success.
TLDR: We’re going to die and survive a lot in Ashes. The more we accept this instead of resisting it, the more fun we’ll have and the better the game will be.
5
Ayeveegaming1Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
At the core of these discussions of casual versus hardcore or pve versus pvp is the concept of player flow.
On either side of a flow state is anxiety or boredom. PvP or hardcore players who experience a lack of PvP or hardcore experiences will become bored whereas PvE or casual players who experience too much PvP or hardcore experience will see that as anxiety provoking. Both scenarios lead to the player stopping play and leaving the game.
So this will not be an easy process.
Yes, and going a bit deeper. The flow of Ashes PvX is rooted in resilience, not invincibility. To paraphrase, ‘It’s not about whether I lose my balance, but how quickly I regain it.’
If players have anxiety about what they can lose in a fight (tangible or intangible), success will be defined as ‘never losing.’ This is why open world pvp tends toward zergs and retreat, and will result in the game being more niche.
However, if players can accept that dying or surviving in the open world isn’t winning or losing, it’s just part of the game - then the game will be more fun, and have greater overall success.
TLDR: We’re going to die and survive a lot in Ashes. The more we accept this instead of resisting it, the more fun we’ll have and the better the game will be.
This is true. I try not to think of it as pvp. I think about other players in pvp as things like NPC bosses and such. You are fighting pixles, not the human behind the screen. Doing this lets me break that fear barrier that is a stigma to me. I always was scared of pvp until I found it to be nothing to be feared. Just your pride gets hurt. Lose stuff? It can be replaced. If there is no risk there is no challenge to get better.
Actually you constantly dismiss people and look for reasons to do that.
No, I dimiss opinions if they are significantly different to my understanding.
This gives people the option of backing themselves up, if they feel strongly about what it is they are saying.
Ask NiKr, this is exactly what happened when we started talking about L2. I dismissed his comments as essentially rose-tinted goggles, he backed himself up, and has changed my opinion on some aspects of the game.
When someone dismisses your opinion, you don't back yourself, you attack - with your default seeming to be some meaningly "how long have you played X game" - a question that only ever matters if you are specifically talking about the in depth, very fine details of that one game.
If you think im going to slight you for not being in a top guild etc, that isn't the purpose. Though I'm mindful of the extent you actually did pvp something is not adding up.
The thing you see as not adding up is one of the things you are in the best position to see - of all the people here.
Look at fighting games. As PvP, they are significantly better matched than anything in an MMORPG could ever be. Every match you start with a finely tuned character that has an exact skill set and stats. The design is for them to be as balanced as it is possible for them to be.
This results in far better fights than a game where the skill set, the details of those skills, the stats of the character, literally everything is a variable. There is no balance.
This opens things up to far worse fights.
Fighting games can have fights that are one sided - but only due to player skill. This is the same for MOBA's, FPS, BRs, even RTS games. Anything where it is match based.
MMO's can have fights that are one sided due to the characters not being even remotely equal. The thing is, MMORPG's need to have that unbalanced aspect to it in order to still be an RPG.
Thus, logically speaking, the best PvP comes from match based games.
The fact you think I'm attacking you is ironic when you started singing insults earlier. Asking how long you played a game for is not an attack. It leads into other questions based on the time you spent with the game, and if you didn't spend time on the game, it is simply questionable to have such strong opinions on others that spent a lot of time on the game.
Asking how long someone played the game, what their experiences were, what they had fun about pvp and what issues they also had are all valid questions. No one is going to think that is an attack, to perceive it as such is fear of something in relation to the truth.
You are stating the obvious about mmorpgs not being balance dot o stats and such. That literarily doesn't matter, it is part of the competition on being ahead of others. It is part of the strife to catch up or surpass someone else.
But your view point again seems to coming from tab focused opinion (any where I say you don't experienced with action mmorpgs). Having action adds more skill elements to the game, giving people more chances to dodge, needing to aim your shots and not be able to have things auto hit do to tab without needing to aim. That increases the gap between players and though gear will always matters, adds another layer of skill that can give players an edge.
@Noaani I've said it before, the moment you stop putting words in peoples mouth, and assuming things if you have not played certain games enough you will become a better person and poster on these forums.
You need to not force things to be the way to see it and allow people to express and understand their point of view, than trying to use what they say and remolding it to fit what you want it to be.
TLDR: We’re going to die and survive a lot in Ashes. The more we accept this instead of resisting it, the more fun we’ll have and the better the game will be.
Only if Steven will balance the game to let that happen. Near nodes I mean, during peaceful times.
How often do you think well developed nodes will fall, especially if rich players have freeholds there?
Casual PvE-ers may want to play more often near such nodes.
0
FantmxMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
At the core of these discussions of casual versus hardcore or pve versus pvp is the concept of player flow.
On either side of a flow state is anxiety or boredom. PvP or hardcore players who experience a lack of PvP or hardcore experiences will become bored whereas PvE or casual players who experience too much PvP or hardcore experience will see that as anxiety provoking. Both scenarios lead to the player stopping play and leaving the game.
So this will not be an easy process.
Yes, and going a bit deeper. The flow of Ashes PvX is rooted in resilience, not invincibility. To paraphrase, ‘It’s not about whether I lose my balance, but how quickly I regain it.’
If players have anxiety about what they can lose in a fight (tangible or intangible), success will be defined as ‘never losing.’ This is why open world pvp tends toward zergs and retreat, and will result in the game being more niche.
However, if players can accept that dying or surviving in the open world isn’t winning or losing, it’s just part of the game - then the game will be more fun, and have greater overall success.
TLDR: We’re going to die and survive a lot in Ashes. The more we accept this instead of resisting it, the more fun we’ll have and the better the game will be.
This is a core part of the individual. Most people will not be able to accept something that goes against their nature. It just won't happen. Which is why I have a belief that they need some sort of space reserved for the PvE or less hardcore crowd or accept ashes as a niche game.
Only if Steven will balance the game to let that happen. Near nodes I mean, during peaceful times.
How often do you think well developed nodes will fall, especially if rich players have freeholds there?
Casual PvE-ers may want to play more often near such nodes.
Well, node sieges are declared, structured large pvp events - I don’t know how often they will happen once the game is in full swing.
If players want to successfully attain, manage, and retain a freehold - I think the first step will be ditching useless roles, such as ‘casual pve-er,’ and doing what’s necessary to achieve their goals.
@Noaani I've said it before, the moment you stop putting words in peoples mouth, and assuming things if you have not played certain games enough you will become a better person and poster on these forums.
You need to not force things to be the way to see it and allow people to express and understand their point of view, than trying to use what they say and remolding it to fit what you want it to be.
At the core of these discussions of casual versus hardcore or pve versus pvp is the concept of player flow.
On either side of a flow state is anxiety or boredom. PvP or hardcore players who experience a lack of PvP or hardcore experiences will become bored whereas PvE or casual players who experience too much PvP or hardcore experience will see that as anxiety provoking. Both scenarios lead to the player stopping play and leaving the game.
So this will not be an easy process.
Yes, and going a bit deeper. The flow of Ashes PvX is rooted in resilience, not invincibility. To paraphrase, ‘It’s not about whether I lose my balance, but how quickly I regain it.’
If players have anxiety about what they can lose in a fight (tangible or intangible), success will be defined as ‘never losing.’ This is why open world pvp tends toward zergs and retreat, and will result in the game being more niche.
However, if players can accept that dying or surviving in the open world isn’t winning or losing, it’s just part of the game - then the game will be more fun, and have greater overall success.
TLDR: We’re going to die and survive a lot in Ashes. The more we accept this instead of resisting it, the more fun we’ll have and the better the game will be.
This is something I just couldn't accept, and I know that's the case for many others.
It's the main thing about Albion Online. Dying in red/black zones is punishing. Maybe not so much to experienced players, who know that they will just get their stuff back really fast, but to newer players, it's just extremely punishing, emotionally.
When you die and lose stuff, you've basically lost time and effort that you invested into the game up to that point. All that time spent leveling up, getting richer to buy the gear, it's all gone. It just feels like all you've done to get there was in vain, and you have wasted your time...
I simply don't want a game that's going to disrespect my time in that way. I'd be fine if I was actually having fun, but I wasn't, and that's the main issue. I tried venturing out a few times to black zones, to just gather stuff if possible... I'm not kidding, my anxiety and fear levels were through the roof. It's not an enjoying experience, because I know I will die if I ever get into combat, because it's often 1v2 or 3, or they simply outgear you by a lot. So the experience kinda goes like this: Venture out there, use the invisibility thing at the start of the map, run as fast to the thing (can't remember what it was, a dungeon of sorts I think), stay at the entrance for a few min to make sure nobody followed you there, do the dungeon, then leave and try to run back avoiding any contact with players, deposit all loot, repeat. It's just wasn't enjoyable at all, because it was extremely stressful.
And the thing is, you HAVE to go to those zones, because that's where anything of worth is located at.
So rather than "accepting that dying is a normal part of the game", I just quit. And it's going to be the same for a lot of people, hell, most of them probably.
And this is coming from someone that loved to PvP in Archeage. That experience is completely different, because if you die, you can just go back and try to fight again. You don't lose much, except maybe time spent getting back into the action, and your ego/pride.
Yeah, people not wanting a fair fight will find what they want in an MMO, much more than they will in a fighting game, FPS or MOBA.
????? tell me, in what FPS or MOBA I can lead a call with dozens, sometimes 100s of players that have invested thousands of hours in their progression getting the gear, skills, etc - against other 100s of players that are also emotionally invested due to all the guild drama / politics involved - AND at the same time have the ability to do some roaming and have fun 1v1s and small scale PvP that comes down to player skill?
I used to think you might have actually played PVP MMOs but you just preferred PVE but from this point forward I am now 100% sure you never even played a decent PVP MMO and you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Comments
Therefore, you are arguing against what I suggested.
Keep in mind - I am talking about from the perspective of MMORPG's in general. Archeage had comparitively little in the way of character progression in relation to an EQ, EQ2 or WoW. In fact, in the 5 years I played it, it has less progression than the first 6 months of EQ2.
You literally talked about Power Gains in character progression related to gear upgrades, unless you are literally going for things like "Expansions making previous gear COMPLETELY obsolete" or "1000x number power creeps which i find abominable for "character progression" in any MMORPG i will simple have to agree to disagree.
At this point i will literally have to ask you for examples of what you consider actual character progression.
Nope Noaani, You argued "L2 took the character progression aspect of MMORPG's and reduced it down to almost nothing." which is not the opposite of "there is more character progression in a game like L2 Than in EQ/EQ2" which would be a fair statement.
Aren't we all sinners?
The discussion was in the context of in comparion to other MMORPG's, even if the post itself wasnt.
Edit to add - a few years ago I looked at an EQ2 item - the stats on that item were ~49.7 times the base stats of a starting character, mana and HP were even higher. It also had cast speed increases, which is nice.
That was one item. The item in question also had an effect on it that amounted to two new class abilities.
On top of that, gear isn't the only means of progression in EQ2. It is one of three means of progression - four if you include basic levels (which I consider a given rather than an aspect of character progression).
Would you say that - in comparison to that - L2's character progression has been reduced to almost nothing?
The Starting characters in Lineage 2 have about 3-6 starting physical attack,
the starting one handed sword had around 6 base physical attack and provided nothing more
In the Hellbound version back in ~2008 the the Best one handed Sword had 363 base physical attack
+ 5 Different additional stacking upgrades on top it disconsidering regular enchanting or augmentation.
I hope this is answers your question.
Aren't we all sinners?
Oh, if you want to talk attacks, EQ2 went from single digit to hundreds of thousands (well, just breaking 6 figures in 2008) in the time period you are talking about, and was up to tens of millions last I looked.
I assume that proves my point.
Yep you certainly proved how insane Power creep is in EQ2, but no worries even Lineage 2 suffered from this issue after NCSoft started destroying the game back in 2011, as of 2023 L2 Characters reach the Tens of Millions and beyond P. Atk/M.Atk with their weapons and can hit for 12+ number digits.
Aren't we all sinners?
Not only is this is kind of my point here - it is the reason for my point.
Ok got it, Bigger Number = More character progression,
time to reach the Septilions for ultimate character progression.
I certainly have no intention of arguing such unreasonable idea.
And seem that EQ2 and L2 currently hold similar numbers looks like ignorance was the essence of the debate.
Aren't we all sinners?
As long as the thing that matters most in combat is reducing the number of health the enemy has to zero before they reduce the amount of health you have to zero, bigger number = more character progression.
Be honest, is that a new piece of information to you?
Edit to add - not that it is some sort of measuring competition, but EQ2 was at the tens of millions years ago - I said last I looked, I've not looked for years. Billions wouldn't surprise me - but I don't know.
I wish it actually was more like Archeage, because you had dedicated PvP zones, that would cycle between peace and war mode. So you could just not go to certain areas if you don't want to PvP.
Ashes will be nothing like that sadly, and it's going to lean much more into PvP, where it can happen anywhere at any time.
It's superior if you want an equalized setting, where people are paired with other players of similar skill level, and where they start out on the same level in terms of power.
However, PvP in MMORPGs just cannot work like that in an open-world setting. And it shouldn't.
Lobby/match based PvP games are nothing like MMORPGs with open-world PvP. It's a completely different experience, for different types of players.
In a persistent world, your character keeps progressing, you can do many different stuff in game, other than PvP, and when you go out into the world, you could go looking for PvP, or you could go looking to do other stuff, like grinding mobs, gathering, etc. The game simply allows you to CHOOSE (sadly it won't let you choose in Ashes).
Sure, the PvP experience might be superior in dedicated lobby based PvP games, but people aren't playing MMORPGs for the PvP experience alone. It's hours of grinding, obtaining the gear, building up your character, designing it's kit, etc. that culminates in PvP experience.
It's also more easily available, as you could just go out and engage in PvP, rather than having to queue up, wait for the match to start, etc. - And then when the match ends, you have to do it all over again. It's just a different experience completely.
So a good PvP system is amazing in MMORPGs. However, it's at its most amazing after the release of the game, because everyone is mostly at around the same level of power.
//
As Archeage, BDO, and other games have shown us, if you're a new player trying to get into it after the game has already been established for a few months/years, your experience is likely to be miserable in PvP.
Ashes will try to at least somewhat improve on that, because your gear won't account for more than ~50% of your total power.
I also think that faction based games are better in a way, compared to what Ashes is trying to do, because I feel the corruption just won't be enough of a deterrent. In faction based games, you at least know you likely won't be attacked by your own faction (except for the games like Archeage, where you can flag up on your own faction), and you're unlikely to encounter the enemy faction unless you go to dedicated PvP zones.
Though they can still pull it off, and design a balanced system.
Imo, it should work in a way where flagging and killing is heavily discouraged, unless you've explicitly chosen the path of being a pirate/or a general menace to society, or if your guild has declared war to another guild, if you're a part of a different faction, etc.
I think there should be a path to become a villain or a pirate, so only those who go down that path could just flag up on anyone at any time.
What's stopping someone from just flagging up to kill someone they know has a full inventory of valuables, if they don't do it regularly? I could just kill someone like that, grind a bit to remove corruption, then do it again tomorrow. Now imagine if half of the playerbase does exactly that...I certainly wouldn't want to play that game.
Then again, that wouldn't really allow for PvP around some key areas, like dungeons or world bosses, so I can confidently say that it will never work like that.
All of this is true - but there is a key point to make here.
The only thing an MMO with PvP has over a match based game with PvP is the notion of permanence. The knowledge that if you lose this fight, your rival gains an upper hand that is applied to every fight they have against anyone - and additionally that you stand to lose something. It's the gravity of a loss that Akabear talked about above.
The thing is, this isn't inherently a good thing. It means a loss means you are more likely to lose next time, and a win means you are more likely to win next time.
Now, I'm not saying these are bad things - if you have PvP in an MMORPG, you obviously need to reward the winner. That should go without saying.
What I am saying is that it is these very facts that make PvP not overly suited to the MMORPG genre, where it is perfectly suited to genres that are match based.
Yeah, I mostly agree.
The reason you think it might not be overly suited, is only because it's way more difficult to design a good PvP experience in an MMORPG, than in other types of games. It requires way more work to just design a fair system, to manage class balance, etc. etc. And it might very well be the case that it's impossible to make a perfect PvP system, and then I would agree that PvP isn't overly suited to the MMORPG genre.
Some very inexperienced and myopic takes on this thread, is what it is.
@Dygz it is unrelenting posts about other people than you not wanting to play the game that makes me question your loyalty to the outcome of the game. I think you have stated no less than five times that people will not be playing this game.
Because when you realize that in 1-2 hours there's not much you can do, you'll stop playing. Gathering? You lose a lot. There's no way out of the PvP. If you're gathering and you get PvPed you have to fight, because if you don't, you lose more mats. You died? You lost mats and xp and time. You didn't fight back? You lost even more mats and time and xp. Enemy gets corruption? It doens't change anything for me, I still lost time. So out of the 2 hours I had, now I might need 3 to get that XP back.
Node wars? Yeah, it's fun. What am I protecting? Because it ain't my land for sure, it's the guild's or richest people's land.
My point is that unless you commit a lot of time, and I might be wrong, but it almost feels like you're a NPC if you're casual. Nothing you do matters.
So what would make somebody with little time, to be motivated to protect it's node?
Flow is a psychological concept most explored by Mihály Csíkszentmihályi.
Some important concepts where the casual/hardcore and pvp/pve crowds will separate are:
Typically an mmorpg would have separate functions for separate groups so that all types of players would have the ability to reach a flow state in a shared world. However Ashes is blending these.
On either side of a flow state is anxiety or boredom. PvP or hardcore players who experience a lack of PvP or hardcore experiences will become bored whereas PvE or casual players who experience too much PvP or hardcore experience will see that as anxiety provoking. Both scenarios lead to the player stopping play and leaving the game.
So this will not be an easy process.
I will say that is where some of my questioning comes from. The more imbalanced the individual experiences become the more likely the overall experience fails.
<sigh> Already decided before you even played the game or understand any of the basic systems and dependencies.
I think all hope is lost.
There's a flip side to faction based games though. Every members of the other factions are enemies, generally there are no downside for them attacking you, or you attacking them. Very often, all those who think they can win will attack. It's the "enemy" after all.
Although you're not in combat competition with other members of your own faction, you still have to compete against them for resources, drops, quest mobs, market share, spot in groups/raid, etc.
Factions population imbalances are another downside. How many of WoW Classic PvP servers are so lopsided that they are practically PvE servers?
There are always pros and cons.
Yes, and going a bit deeper. The flow of Ashes PvX is rooted in resilience, not invincibility. To paraphrase, ‘It’s not about whether I lose my balance, but how quickly I regain it.’
If players have anxiety about what they can lose in a fight (tangible or intangible), success will be defined as ‘never losing.’ This is why open world pvp tends toward zergs and retreat, and will result in the game being more niche.
However, if players can accept that dying or surviving in the open world isn’t winning or losing, it’s just part of the game - then the game will be more fun, and have greater overall success.
TLDR: We’re going to die and survive a lot in Ashes. The more we accept this instead of resisting it, the more fun we’ll have and the better the game will be.
This is true. I try not to think of it as pvp. I think about other players in pvp as things like NPC bosses and such. You are fighting pixles, not the human behind the screen. Doing this lets me break that fear barrier that is a stigma to me. I always was scared of pvp until I found it to be nothing to be feared. Just your pride gets hurt. Lose stuff? It can be replaced. If there is no risk there is no challenge to get better.
The fact you think I'm attacking you is ironic when you started singing insults earlier. Asking how long you played a game for is not an attack. It leads into other questions based on the time you spent with the game, and if you didn't spend time on the game, it is simply questionable to have such strong opinions on others that spent a lot of time on the game.
Asking how long someone played the game, what their experiences were, what they had fun about pvp and what issues they also had are all valid questions. No one is going to think that is an attack, to perceive it as such is fear of something in relation to the truth.
You are stating the obvious about mmorpgs not being balance dot o stats and such. That literarily doesn't matter, it is part of the competition on being ahead of others. It is part of the strife to catch up or surpass someone else.
But your view point again seems to coming from tab focused opinion (any where I say you don't experienced with action mmorpgs). Having action adds more skill elements to the game, giving people more chances to dodge, needing to aim your shots and not be able to have things auto hit do to tab without needing to aim. That increases the gap between players and though gear will always matters, adds another layer of skill that can give players an edge.
You need to not force things to be the way to see it and allow people to express and understand their point of view, than trying to use what they say and remolding it to fit what you want it to be.
How often do you think well developed nodes will fall, especially if rich players have freeholds there?
Casual PvE-ers may want to play more often near such nodes.
This is a core part of the individual. Most people will not be able to accept something that goes against their nature. It just won't happen. Which is why I have a belief that they need some sort of space reserved for the PvE or less hardcore crowd or accept ashes as a niche game.
Well, node sieges are declared, structured large pvp events - I don’t know how often they will happen once the game is in full swing.
If players want to successfully attain, manage, and retain a freehold - I think the first step will be ditching useless roles, such as ‘casual pve-er,’ and doing what’s necessary to achieve their goals.
ironic
This is something I just couldn't accept, and I know that's the case for many others.
It's the main thing about Albion Online. Dying in red/black zones is punishing. Maybe not so much to experienced players, who know that they will just get their stuff back really fast, but to newer players, it's just extremely punishing, emotionally.
When you die and lose stuff, you've basically lost time and effort that you invested into the game up to that point. All that time spent leveling up, getting richer to buy the gear, it's all gone. It just feels like all you've done to get there was in vain, and you have wasted your time...
I simply don't want a game that's going to disrespect my time in that way. I'd be fine if I was actually having fun, but I wasn't, and that's the main issue. I tried venturing out a few times to black zones, to just gather stuff if possible... I'm not kidding, my anxiety and fear levels were through the roof. It's not an enjoying experience, because I know I will die if I ever get into combat, because it's often 1v2 or 3, or they simply outgear you by a lot. So the experience kinda goes like this: Venture out there, use the invisibility thing at the start of the map, run as fast to the thing (can't remember what it was, a dungeon of sorts I think), stay at the entrance for a few min to make sure nobody followed you there, do the dungeon, then leave and try to run back avoiding any contact with players, deposit all loot, repeat. It's just wasn't enjoyable at all, because it was extremely stressful.
And the thing is, you HAVE to go to those zones, because that's where anything of worth is located at.
So rather than "accepting that dying is a normal part of the game", I just quit. And it's going to be the same for a lot of people, hell, most of them probably.
And this is coming from someone that loved to PvP in Archeage. That experience is completely different, because if you die, you can just go back and try to fight again. You don't lose much, except maybe time spent getting back into the action, and your ego/pride.
????? tell me, in what FPS or MOBA I can lead a call with dozens, sometimes 100s of players that have invested thousands of hours in their progression getting the gear, skills, etc - against other 100s of players that are also emotionally invested due to all the guild drama / politics involved - AND at the same time have the ability to do some roaming and have fun 1v1s and small scale PvP that comes down to player skill?
I used to think you might have actually played PVP MMOs but you just preferred PVE but from this point forward I am now 100% sure you never even played a decent PVP MMO and you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.