@Dygz it is unrelenting posts about other people than you not wanting to play the game that makes me question your loyalty to the outcome of the game. I think you have stated no less than five times that people will not be playing this game.
LMFAO
Post the quote where I literally state "People will not be playing this game."
I have not said anything like "Nobody will play this game."
In fact, I have stated numerous times that I expect people who love EvE Online, ArcheAge and Lineage II will also love playing Ashes. Also, those PvPers who loved NW before the PvP got nerfed.
And, sure, we could also add way older games, like Ultima Online and Shadowbane...
Although, I usually use Shadowbane as my prime example for PvP-centric MMORPGs failing.
It's hysterical to me that the Play To Crush folk moved on to make Wizard101 - which is way more successful.
Even Crowfall is struggling.
I'm pretty sure Steven will be ecstatic if he can maintain EvE Online and Lineage II population numbers for 10+ years.
@Noaani I've said it before, the moment you stop putting words in peoples mouth, and assuming things if you have not played certain games enough you will become a better person and poster on these forums.
You need to not force things to be the way to see it and allow people to express and understand their point of view, than trying to use what they say and remolding it to fit what you want it to be.
At the core of these discussions of casual versus hardcore or pve versus pvp is the concept of player flow.
On either side of a flow state is anxiety or boredom. PvP or hardcore players who experience a lack of PvP or hardcore experiences will become bored whereas PvE or casual players who experience too much PvP or hardcore experience will see that as anxiety provoking. Both scenarios lead to the player stopping play and leaving the game.
So this will not be an easy process.
Yes, and going a bit deeper. The flow of Ashes PvX is rooted in resilience, not invincibility. To paraphrase, ‘It’s not about whether I lose my balance, but how quickly I regain it.’
If players have anxiety about what they can lose in a fight (tangible or intangible), success will be defined as ‘never losing.’ This is why open world pvp tends toward zergs and retreat, and will result in the game being more niche.
However, if players can accept that dying or surviving in the open world isn’t winning or losing, it’s just part of the game - then the game will be more fun, and have greater overall success.
TLDR: We’re going to die and survive a lot in Ashes. The more we accept this instead of resisting it, the more fun we’ll have and the better the game will be.
This is something I just couldn't accept, and I know that's the case for many others.
It's the main thing about Albion Online. Dying in red/black zones is punishing. Maybe not so much to experienced players, who know that they will just get their stuff back really fast, but to newer players, it's just extremely punishing, emotionally.
When you die and lose stuff, you've basically lost time and effort that you invested into the game up to that point. All that time spent leveling up, getting richer to buy the gear, it's all gone. It just feels like all you've done to get there was in vain, and you have wasted your time...
I simply don't want a game that's going to disrespect my time in that way. I'd be fine if I was actually having fun, but I wasn't, and that's the main issue. I tried venturing out a few times to black zones, to just gather stuff if possible... I'm not kidding, my anxiety and fear levels were through the roof. It's not an enjoying experience, because I know I will die if I ever get into combat, because it's often 1v2 or 3, or they simply outgear you by a lot. So the experience kinda goes like this: Venture out there, use the invisibility thing at the start of the map, run as fast to the thing (can't remember what it was, a dungeon of sorts I think), stay at the entrance for a few min to make sure nobody followed you there, do the dungeon, then leave and try to run back avoiding any contact with players, deposit all loot, repeat. It's just wasn't enjoyable at all, because it was extremely stressful.
And the thing is, you HAVE to go to those zones, because that's where anything of worth is located at.
So rather than "accepting that dying is a normal part of the game", I just quit. And it's going to be the same for a lot of people, hell, most of them probably.
And this is coming from someone that loved to PvP in Archeage. That experience is completely different, because if you die, you can just go back and try to fight again. You don't lose much, except maybe time spent getting back into the action, and your ego/pride.
You defending him assuming things on games he has not played and telling people who played games how it is? Also also defending him insulting as a means to dismiss people?
Well In theory they can participate in sieges. Under the assumption that they are uncapped in terms of players. Any guild would have to be crazy to allow a casual cleric to have a siege spot over their fully kitted cleric who participated in guild activities consistently for 8 months. I don't think most guilds would allow casuals a spot over hardcore players. We saw the same thing happen in other games.
Casuals can participate in sieges, but they will probably be playing some other game that is more casual-friendly than Ashes.
@Dygz it is unrelenting posts about other people than you not wanting to play the game that makes me question your loyalty to the outcome of the game. I think you have stated no less than five times that people will not be playing this game.
Because when you realize that in 1-2 hours there's not much you can do, you'll stop playing. Gathering? You lose a lot. There's no way out of the PvP. If you're gathering and you get PvPed you have to fight, because if you don't, you lose more mats. You died? You lost mats and xp and time. You didn't fight back? You lost even more mats and time and xp. Enemy gets corruption? It doens't change anything for me, I still lost time. So out of the 2 hours I had, now I might need 3 to get that XP back.
Node wars? Yeah, it's fun. What am I protecting? Because it ain't my land for sure, it's the guild's or richest people's land.
My point is that unless you commit a lot of time, and I might be wrong, but it almost feels like you're a NPC if you're casual. Nothing you do matters.
So what would make somebody with little time, to be motivated to protect it's node?
I'm still trying to find reasons. You don't have any attachments to a node. It's not a social thing, only guilds are. A node is just like a city, a group of people.
Maybe after playing 5 months in the same node, you might know a couple of hardcores, but are they going to be willing to help you?
Plus, if you own any property, it's probably going to be on the edges or low populated nodes, so I don't think you'll see much action. I don't think casuals will be able to afford citizenship
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Ayeveegaming1Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
There will never be a fair fight. That's what arenas or matches are for. In the open world there is just survival. It's better to run in packs. If you run solo you need to be good, or be able to evade and run. Basic truths in game and in real life.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think about other players in pvp as things like NPC bosses and such. You are fighting pixles, not the human behind the screen. Doing this lets me break that fear barrier that is a stigma to me. I always was scared of pvp until I found it to be nothing to be feared. Just your pride gets hurt. Lose stuff? It can be replaced. If there is no risk there is no challenge to get better.
I'm a carebear.
I'm going to think about the players as humans behind the screen.
And... it's the very fact that PvPers treat other players like pixels and NPCs rather than humans behind the screen that I prefer to play MMORPGs on servers that PvPers are not playing on.
Has nothing to do with fear.
We can lose stuff from mob attacks - losing stuff is not really the issue. Risk is not really the issue. We can have plenty of challenge and risk from mobs.
At the core of these discussions of casual versus hardcore or pve versus pvp is the concept of player flow.
On either side of a flow state is anxiety or boredom. PvP or hardcore players who experience a lack of PvP or hardcore experiences will become bored whereas PvE or casual players who experience too much PvP or hardcore experience will see that as anxiety provoking. Both scenarios lead to the player stopping play and leaving the game.
So this will not be an easy process.
Yes, and going a bit deeper. The flow of Ashes PvX is rooted in resilience, not invincibility. To paraphrase, ‘It’s not about whether I lose my balance, but how quickly I regain it.’
If players have anxiety about what they can lose in a fight (tangible or intangible), success will be defined as ‘never losing.’ This is why open world pvp tends toward zergs and retreat, and will result in the game being more niche.
However, if players can accept that dying or surviving in the open world isn’t winning or losing, it’s just part of the game - then the game will be more fun, and have greater overall success.
TLDR: We’re going to die and survive a lot in Ashes. The more we accept this instead of resisting it, the more fun we’ll have and the better the game will be.
Hardcore players can afford that, casuals can't. A casual has 3 hours of gameplay, goes out to farm, they're not gonna be coming back to the node every 10 things mined, they will stay until bags are full. Casuals gets ganked. Casuals loses a lot of mats. Casual just lost 50% of time.
For a casual that's half the game time, for a hardcore it's just "a minor session". Rinse and repeat.
Eventually casuals is gonna say "I'm done wasting my time"
I think about other players in pvp as things like NPC bosses and such. You are fighting pixles, not the human behind the screen. Doing this lets me break that fear barrier that is a stigma to me. I always was scared of pvp until I found it to be nothing to be feared. Just your pride gets hurt. Lose stuff? It can be replaced. If there is no risk there is no challenge to get better.
I'm a carebear.
I'm going to think about the players as the humans behind the screen.
And... it's the very fact that PvPers treat other players like pixels and NPCs rather than humans behind the screen that I prefer to play MMORPGs on servers that PvPers are not playing on.
Has nothing to do with fear.
We can lose stuff from mob attacks - losing stuff is not really the issue. Risk is not really the issue. We can have plenty of challenge and risk from mobs.
I understand that. We are still in the development stages. However I think this game might not be geared for many strictly pve characters. Maybe join a large guild and be the supreme crafter and such that never leaves the freehold. But unless the made a mirror server like UO's trammel it's prob not the place.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
However, if players can accept that dying or surviving in the open world isn’t winning or losing, it’s just part of the game - then the game will be more fun, and have greater overall success.
TLDR: We’re going to die and survive a lot in Ashes. The more we accept this instead of resisting it, the more fun we’ll have and the better the game will be.
I think all MMORPG players accept that dying or surviving in the open world isn't winning or losing - it's just part of the game. That's what mobs are for.
What I won't accept is being forced, by some other player, into PvP combat when I'm not in the mood for PvP.
You MIGHT be able to get me to play a game where I can always choose to punish the player who forces me into PvP with Corruption. But, I won't play a game with permanent zones that don't have something like the Corruption mechanic. Of course, even in the areas with Corruption... being forced into PvP would have to be exceedingly rare.
Once we get into the territory of auto-consent to PvP just be agreeing to play the game - I will refuse to play that game. Because I find the concept of auto-consent to PvP abhorrent.
Whether I win or lose the PvP encounter is irrelevant.
How much time I waste due to PvP could be an issue.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So what would make somebody with little time, to be motivated to protect it's node?
Sieges are known way in advance. And they last, what, 1 hour?
In general, even people with little time should be able to schedule in time for a Siege if they want to.
Even if you only have 20 minutes - doesn't hurt to spend the 20 minutes protecting your Node for as long as you can.
I'm playing the game regardless of how pvp / pve is implemented, and I'm a dirty casual that will pvp though I'm not good at it. However depending on launch numbers vs retention numbers, I have a feeling the team at Intrepid may look at some sort of pve focused server/s to see if they can keep they cash flow going. I know what Steven has said in the past, but he has put a lot of money into this, and I'm sure money will start to talk at some point. Only time will tell.
Kaos & Lace Cartel
"Come join us as you wont like the taste of the Grapefruits we're throwing at our enemies."
"Never settle for what you think you know" - C. Krauthammer
I think all MMORPG players accept that dying or surviving in the open world isn't winning or losing - it's just part of the game. That's what mobs are for.
Conflict in Ashes will be with both mobs and players. But you know this…
What I won't accept is being forced, by some other player, into PvP combat when I'm not in the mood for PvP.
… and have decided accordingly. I don’t think the vast majority of folks - even here - have accepted this yet.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If players want to successfully attain, manage, and retain a freehold - I think the first step will be ditching useless roles, such as ‘casual pve-er,’ and doing what’s necessary to achieve their goals.
Easier to just ditch the game that is useless to achieving casual PvE MMORPG goals.
There will be other MMORPGs offering features similar to Ashes that are more casual friendly.
And... casuals are more likely to choose the easier route rather than the the more difficult one.
If players want to successfully attain, manage, and retain a freehold - I think the first step will be ditching useless roles, such as ‘casual pve-er,’ and doing what’s necessary to achieve their goals.
Easier to just ditch the game that is useless to achieving my casual PvE MMORPG goals.
Yep. And this is will be an inflection point for a product being directed toward multiple segments or a targeted micro-segment.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Conflict in Ashes will be with both mobs and players. But you know this…
Should be easy for most people to know that casual challenge players are unlikely to want to have a lot of conflict with other players.
Since NPCs and mobs actually are just pixels - I'm not sure conflict is the word I would use for any interactions with them.
Yeah, people not wanting a fair fight will find what they want in an MMO, much more than they will in a fighting game, FPS or MOBA.
????? tell me, in what FPS or MOBA I can lead a call with dozens, sometimes 100s of players that have invested thousands of hours in their progression getting the gear, skills, etc - against other 100s of players that are also emotionally invested due to all the guild drama / politics involved - AND at the same time have the ability to do some roaming and have fun 1v1s and small scale PvP that comes down to player skill?
I used to think you might have actually played PVP MMOs but you just preferred PVE but from this point forward I am now 100% sure you never even played a decent PVP MMO and you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
@Liniker I usually agree with you... and hardly ever agree with @Noaani, but I think it is very possible both of you are correct from your perspectives and there is just not enough overlap in your two perspectives that you will ever see the others. You should join together to form a guild.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You don't have any attachments to a node. It's not a social thing, only guilds are. A node is just like a city, a group of people.
Maybe after playing 5 months in the same node, you might know a couple of hardcores, but are they going to be willing to help you?
Plus, if you own any property, it's probably going to be on the edges or low populated nodes, so I don't think you'll see much action. I don't think casuals will be able to afford citizenship
My attachments to a Node would be that I help progress it from Stage to Stage.
I vote for the Mayors.
I help choose what Services are available.
I help choose which Social Orgs are supported there.
And - I would expect to be quite social with the other players in that Node - since I will be progressing and defending the Node alongside them. Probably crafting and possibly trading with them, too.
As well as asking them to catch me up on the latest news while I've been offline.
Why would it take 5 months to know a couple of hardcores? And why would they not be willing to help you?
This isn't some kind of thing where its hardcores pitted against casuals.
Its just a basic truth that hardcore players get what they want -first- anywhere you go.
The angsty going around the forums in several threads right now, is that instead of -first-, the systems seem to be orienting themselves to -only-, as in, to exclude casual (or more clearly spoken, NORMAL players, as in the majority of players, almost all of us) from content.
This created a controversy which we can see by all the debate and discussion.
So if the system is hardcore -only- can do all the actually important things, what is there left for normal players to make this game fun. What is left to draw the rest of us into logging in to this game instead of other games, if normal players can't have any realistically achievable goals.
Even in grindlord games like bdo where hardcore players (or those with big bank accounts ) will always have some advantage because they put in the time, which is completely fair btw, a normal casual player can eventually reach the 700 gear score as well, just by playing bit by bit everyday, which also they are playing in far less efficient farm spots as well because they cant compete for the good ones.
In ashes, it seems that is impossible for a normal player to ever reach the desired pinnacle content without riding the coattails of a mega guild or group of sweaty players.
@Noaani I've said it before, the moment you stop putting words in peoples mouth, and assuming things if you have not played certain games enough you will become a better person and poster on these forums.
You need to not force things to be the way to see it and allow people to express and understand their point of view, than trying to use what they say and remolding it to fit what you want it to be.
At the core of these discussions of casual versus hardcore or pve versus pvp is the concept of player flow.
On either side of a flow state is anxiety or boredom. PvP or hardcore players who experience a lack of PvP or hardcore experiences will become bored whereas PvE or casual players who experience too much PvP or hardcore experience will see that as anxiety provoking. Both scenarios lead to the player stopping play and leaving the game.
So this will not be an easy process.
Yes, and going a bit deeper. The flow of Ashes PvX is rooted in resilience, not invincibility. To paraphrase, ‘It’s not about whether I lose my balance, but how quickly I regain it.’
If players have anxiety about what they can lose in a fight (tangible or intangible), success will be defined as ‘never losing.’ This is why open world pvp tends toward zergs and retreat, and will result in the game being more niche.
However, if players can accept that dying or surviving in the open world isn’t winning or losing, it’s just part of the game - then the game will be more fun, and have greater overall success.
TLDR: We’re going to die and survive a lot in Ashes. The more we accept this instead of resisting it, the more fun we’ll have and the better the game will be.
This is something I just couldn't accept, and I know that's the case for many others.
It's the main thing about Albion Online. Dying in red/black zones is punishing. Maybe not so much to experienced players, who know that they will just get their stuff back really fast, but to newer players, it's just extremely punishing, emotionally.
When you die and lose stuff, you've basically lost time and effort that you invested into the game up to that point. All that time spent leveling up, getting richer to buy the gear, it's all gone. It just feels like all you've done to get there was in vain, and you have wasted your time...
I simply don't want a game that's going to disrespect my time in that way. I'd be fine if I was actually having fun, but I wasn't, and that's the main issue. I tried venturing out a few times to black zones, to just gather stuff if possible... I'm not kidding, my anxiety and fear levels were through the roof. It's not an enjoying experience, because I know I will die if I ever get into combat, because it's often 1v2 or 3, or they simply outgear you by a lot. So the experience kinda goes like this: Venture out there, use the invisibility thing at the start of the map, run as fast to the thing (can't remember what it was, a dungeon of sorts I think), stay at the entrance for a few min to make sure nobody followed you there, do the dungeon, then leave and try to run back avoiding any contact with players, deposit all loot, repeat. It's just wasn't enjoyable at all, because it was extremely stressful.
And the thing is, you HAVE to go to those zones, because that's where anything of worth is located at.
So rather than "accepting that dying is a normal part of the game", I just quit. And it's going to be the same for a lot of people, hell, most of them probably.
And this is coming from someone that loved to PvP in Archeage. That experience is completely different, because if you die, you can just go back and try to fight again. You don't lose much, except maybe time spent getting back into the action, and your ego/pride.
You defending him assuming things on games he has not played and telling people who played games how it is? Also also defending him insulting as a means to dismiss people?
I'm not defending him, I just understand where he's coming from, because of my experience of interacting with you on these forums
@Noaani I've said it before, the moment you stop putting words in peoples mouth, and assuming things if you have not played certain games enough you will become a better person and poster on these forums.
You need to not force things to be the way to see it and allow people to express and understand their point of view, than trying to use what they say and remolding it to fit what you want it to be.
At the core of these discussions of casual versus hardcore or pve versus pvp is the concept of player flow.
On either side of a flow state is anxiety or boredom. PvP or hardcore players who experience a lack of PvP or hardcore experiences will become bored whereas PvE or casual players who experience too much PvP or hardcore experience will see that as anxiety provoking. Both scenarios lead to the player stopping play and leaving the game.
So this will not be an easy process.
Yes, and going a bit deeper. The flow of Ashes PvX is rooted in resilience, not invincibility. To paraphrase, ‘It’s not about whether I lose my balance, but how quickly I regain it.’
If players have anxiety about what they can lose in a fight (tangible or intangible), success will be defined as ‘never losing.’ This is why open world pvp tends toward zergs and retreat, and will result in the game being more niche.
However, if players can accept that dying or surviving in the open world isn’t winning or losing, it’s just part of the game - then the game will be more fun, and have greater overall success.
TLDR: We’re going to die and survive a lot in Ashes. The more we accept this instead of resisting it, the more fun we’ll have and the better the game will be.
This is something I just couldn't accept, and I know that's the case for many others.
It's the main thing about Albion Online. Dying in red/black zones is punishing. Maybe not so much to experienced players, who know that they will just get their stuff back really fast, but to newer players, it's just extremely punishing, emotionally.
When you die and lose stuff, you've basically lost time and effort that you invested into the game up to that point. All that time spent leveling up, getting richer to buy the gear, it's all gone. It just feels like all you've done to get there was in vain, and you have wasted your time...
I simply don't want a game that's going to disrespect my time in that way. I'd be fine if I was actually having fun, but I wasn't, and that's the main issue. I tried venturing out a few times to black zones, to just gather stuff if possible... I'm not kidding, my anxiety and fear levels were through the roof. It's not an enjoying experience, because I know I will die if I ever get into combat, because it's often 1v2 or 3, or they simply outgear you by a lot. So the experience kinda goes like this: Venture out there, use the invisibility thing at the start of the map, run as fast to the thing (can't remember what it was, a dungeon of sorts I think), stay at the entrance for a few min to make sure nobody followed you there, do the dungeon, then leave and try to run back avoiding any contact with players, deposit all loot, repeat. It's just wasn't enjoyable at all, because it was extremely stressful.
And the thing is, you HAVE to go to those zones, because that's where anything of worth is located at.
So rather than "accepting that dying is a normal part of the game", I just quit. And it's going to be the same for a lot of people, hell, most of them probably.
And this is coming from someone that loved to PvP in Archeage. That experience is completely different, because if you die, you can just go back and try to fight again. You don't lose much, except maybe time spent getting back into the action, and your ego/pride.
You defending him assuming things on games he has not played and telling people who played games how it is? Also also defending him insulting as a means to dismiss people?
I'm not defending him, I just understand where he's coming from, because of my experience of interacting with you on these forums
Because i called you out on the concept that you will be able to do everything, so you should have no reason to complain about freeholds based on your words in your own post
There are four, just from this thread. @Dygz Please feel free to correct me if I have accidentally misquoted you.
All of those quotes refer to specific type of people.
Are you trying to argue that all people will play Ashes.
Steven even says that Ashes is not designed for everyone - so... I don't understand your concern.
There literally will be people who refuse to play Ashes.
People who love hardcore PvP will probably love Ashes - since that is the target audience.
I expect those people to have tons of fun playing - and I hope they do.
But, I predict that casual PvEers will mostly choose not to play Ashes. After Ashes launches - we'll see how accurate my prediction is.
Asking how long someone played the game, what their experiences were, what they had fun about pvp and what issues they also had are all valid questions. No one is going to think that is an attack, to perceive it as such is fear of something in relation to the truth.
Actually, it has no relevance at all.
I played BDO for a while.
My impression of its PvP was formed before I had engaged in PvP with anyone. Engaging in PvP later on simply backed up the opinion that I had already formed as being accurate. Others I have talked to on these forums have backed up that opinion as being valid and accurate.
I will happily talk about the general nature of that game (not with you, however). I wont get in to the details of classes, builds and gear, because THAT is what you need to have put significant time in to understand.
However, the general nature of PvP can be determined in minutes - before even engaging in PvP.
Yeah, people not wanting a fair fight will find what they want in an MMO, much more than they will in a fighting game, FPS or MOBA.
????? tell me, in what FPS or MOBA I can lead a call with dozens, sometimes 100s of players that have invested thousands of hours in their progression getting the gear, skills, etc - against other 100s of players that are also emotionally invested due to all the guild drama / politics involved - AND at the same time have the ability to do some roaming and have fun 1v1s and small scale PvP that comes down to player skill?
I used to think you might have actually played PVP MMOs but you just preferred PVE but from this point forward I am now 100% sure you never even played a decent PVP MMO and you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Tell me where just one of these situations was an actual fair fight.
That is what I said where you quoted me.
Keep in mind what my original comment in this regard was. I didn't say PvP in MMO's shouldn't exist, I didn't say Ashes should drop PvP - what I said was "There are far better genres for PvP gameplay than MMO's."
This is an objective fact. No one with a brain would argue against this point.
The miltiple hundreds of millions of MOBA, BR and FPS combined gamers simply don't compare to the few million MMO PvP players. If the MMORPG genre was indeed the best genre for PvP, then those hundreds of millions of players would be playing PvP based MMORPG's.
However, lets take your comment above, but still keep it within the context of me saying there are better genres for PvP than MMORPG's.
You are talking about the major battles of large groups going up against large groups. The absolute undisputed king of this kind of gameplay - I think most would agree - is EVE.
The thing is, after every major battle in EVE, the games population drops. Sometimes by a double digit percentage.
Now, you are arguing that this is a good thing. I am saying that it is this very fact (among other things) that points to MMORPG's not being the best genre for PvP.
There are four, just from this thread. @Dygz Please feel free to correct me if I have accidentally misquoted you.
All of those quotes refer to specific type of people.
Are you trying to argue that all people will play Ashes.
Steven even says that Ashes is not designed for everyone - so... I don't understand your concern.
There literally will be people who refuse to play Ashes.
People who love hardcore PvP will probably love Ashes - since that is the target audience.
I expect those people to have tons of fun playing - and I hope they do.
But, I predict that casual PvEers will mostly choose not to play Ashes. After Ashes launches - we'll see how accurate my prediction is.
lol. nope. i am saying you are subtly (not as much as you think) trying to change Steven's mind about pvp.
i will see you in hello kitty island before that happens.
Yeah, people not wanting a fair fight will find what they want in an MMO, much more than they will in a fighting game, FPS or MOBA.
????? tell me, in what FPS or MOBA I can lead a call with dozens, sometimes 100s of players that have invested thousands of hours in their progression getting the gear, skills, etc - against other 100s of players that are also emotionally invested due to all the guild drama / politics involved - AND at the same time have the ability to do some roaming and have fun 1v1s and small scale PvP that comes down to player skill?
I used to think you might have actually played PVP MMOs but you just preferred PVE but from this point forward I am now 100% sure you never even played a decent PVP MMO and you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Tell me where just one of these situations was an actual fair fight.
That is what I said where you quoted me.
Keep in mind what my original comment in this regard was. I didn't say PvP in MMO's shouldn't exist, I didn't say Ashes should drop PvP - what I said was "There are far better genres for PvP gameplay than MMO's."
This is an objective fact. No one with a brain would argue against this point.
The miltiple hundreds of millions of MOBA, BR and FPS combined gamers simply don't compare to the few million MMO PvP players. If the MMORPG genre was indeed the best genre for PvP, then those hundreds of millions of players would be playing PvP based MMORPG's.
However, lets take your comment above, but still keep it within the context of me saying there are better genres for PvP than MMORPG's.
You are talking about the major battles of large groups going up against large groups. The absolute undisputed king of this kind of gameplay - I think most would agree - is EVE.
The thing is, after every major battle in EVE, the games population drops. Sometimes by a double digit percentage.
Now, you are arguing that this is a good thing. I am saying that it is this very fact (among other things) that points to MMORPG's not being the best genre for PvP.
honestly, if you guys did peyote together, this would be moot.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
lol. nope. i am saying you are subtly (not as much as you think) trying to change Steven's mind about pvp.
LMFAO
If I wanted to try to change his mind, I would just straight up tell him he should change his mind.
I would also clearly state that here in the Forums.
I don't want Steven to change his mind.
There are four, just from this thread. @Dygz Please feel free to correct me if I have accidentally misquoted you.
All of those quotes refer to specific type of people.
Are you trying to argue that all people will play Ashes.
Steven even says that Ashes is not designed for everyone - so... I don't understand your concern.
There literally will be people who refuse to play Ashes.
People who love hardcore PvP will probably love Ashes - since that is the target audience.
I expect those people to have tons of fun playing - and I hope they do.
But, I predict that casual PvEers will mostly choose not to play Ashes. After Ashes launches - we'll see how accurate my prediction is.
they are the exact thing you said you did not say. lol. i cannot support you any longer if you do not recognize this fact @dygz feedback required.
@Noaani I've said it before, the moment you stop putting words in peoples mouth, and assuming things if you have not played certain games enough you will become a better person and poster on these forums.
You need to not force things to be the way to see it and allow people to express and understand their point of view, than trying to use what they say and remolding it to fit what you want it to be.
At the core of these discussions of casual versus hardcore or pve versus pvp is the concept of player flow.
On either side of a flow state is anxiety or boredom. PvP or hardcore players who experience a lack of PvP or hardcore experiences will become bored whereas PvE or casual players who experience too much PvP or hardcore experience will see that as anxiety provoking. Both scenarios lead to the player stopping play and leaving the game.
So this will not be an easy process.
Yes, and going a bit deeper. The flow of Ashes PvX is rooted in resilience, not invincibility. To paraphrase, ‘It’s not about whether I lose my balance, but how quickly I regain it.’
If players have anxiety about what they can lose in a fight (tangible or intangible), success will be defined as ‘never losing.’ This is why open world pvp tends toward zergs and retreat, and will result in the game being more niche.
However, if players can accept that dying or surviving in the open world isn’t winning or losing, it’s just part of the game - then the game will be more fun, and have greater overall success.
TLDR: We’re going to die and survive a lot in Ashes. The more we accept this instead of resisting it, the more fun we’ll have and the better the game will be.
This is something I just couldn't accept, and I know that's the case for many others.
It's the main thing about Albion Online. Dying in red/black zones is punishing. Maybe not so much to experienced players, who know that they will just get their stuff back really fast, but to newer players, it's just extremely punishing, emotionally.
When you die and lose stuff, you've basically lost time and effort that you invested into the game up to that point. All that time spent leveling up, getting richer to buy the gear, it's all gone. It just feels like all you've done to get there was in vain, and you have wasted your time...
I simply don't want a game that's going to disrespect my time in that way. I'd be fine if I was actually having fun, but I wasn't, and that's the main issue. I tried venturing out a few times to black zones, to just gather stuff if possible... I'm not kidding, my anxiety and fear levels were through the roof. It's not an enjoying experience, because I know I will die if I ever get into combat, because it's often 1v2 or 3, or they simply outgear you by a lot. So the experience kinda goes like this: Venture out there, use the invisibility thing at the start of the map, run as fast to the thing (can't remember what it was, a dungeon of sorts I think), stay at the entrance for a few min to make sure nobody followed you there, do the dungeon, then leave and try to run back avoiding any contact with players, deposit all loot, repeat. It's just wasn't enjoyable at all, because it was extremely stressful.
And the thing is, you HAVE to go to those zones, because that's where anything of worth is located at.
So rather than "accepting that dying is a normal part of the game", I just quit. And it's going to be the same for a lot of people, hell, most of them probably.
And this is coming from someone that loved to PvP in Archeage. That experience is completely different, because if you die, you can just go back and try to fight again. You don't lose much, except maybe time spent getting back into the action, and your ego/pride.
You defending him assuming things on games he has not played and telling people who played games how it is? Also also defending him insulting as a means to dismiss people?
I'm not defending him, I just understand where he's coming from, because of my experience of interacting with you on these forums
Because i called you out on the concept that you will be able to do everything, so you should have no reason to complain about freeholds based on your words in your own post
No that's not it, but you've proven my point in a way.
You just keep making assumptions about people and their arguments, even when replying to a post, you completely make up an argument that doesn't exist in the post at all, kinda like putting words in people's mouth, as you've said. You're just projecting. You accuse him of doing the exact stuff that you are actually doing. Not to mention the constant derailing of arguments, and focusing on moot points.
And it's not the first time. As I've said, I had a fair share of those interactions with you previously a few months back. You just kept making weird and false assumptions about me, and the stuff I said or believed in, just based on the fact that I disagreed with you on a certain topic, and argued in favor of the thing you didn't seem to like that much (if I remember correctly it was about combat systems and tab vs action).
Whenever you don't do those sort of things, you actually can make a valid point, but that's very rare.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
they are the exact thing you said you did not say. lol. i cannot support you any longer if you do not recognize this fact @dygz feedback required.
Um. No....
You stated I said, "People will not be playing this game."
I never said that.
Rather, what I said, very specifically is:
Ashes is designed for hardcore gamers who typically play MMORPGs on PvP servers.
If you love EvE Online, Archeage, Lineage II and the New World Alpha PvP, you will have a great time playing Ashes.
People who don't love those games probably will not be playing Ashes.
If you have poor reading comprehension and cannot properly grasp context, that is your own battle to fight.
I can't help you with that.
I very clearly stated that there will be people who love playing Ashes.
Your paraphrase of what I actually wrote is ludicrous.
If you can't see that...
Comments
Post the quote where I literally state "People will not be playing this game."
I have not said anything like "Nobody will play this game."
In fact, I have stated numerous times that I expect people who love EvE Online, ArcheAge and Lineage II will also love playing Ashes. Also, those PvPers who loved NW before the PvP got nerfed.
And, sure, we could also add way older games, like Ultima Online and Shadowbane...
Although, I usually use Shadowbane as my prime example for PvP-centric MMORPGs failing.
It's hysterical to me that the Play To Crush folk moved on to make Wizard101 - which is way more successful.
Even Crowfall is struggling.
I'm pretty sure Steven will be ecstatic if he can maintain EvE Online and Lineage II population numbers for 10+ years.
You defending him assuming things on games he has not played and telling people who played games how it is? Also also defending him insulting as a means to dismiss people?
I'm still trying to find reasons. You don't have any attachments to a node. It's not a social thing, only guilds are. A node is just like a city, a group of people.
Maybe after playing 5 months in the same node, you might know a couple of hardcores, but are they going to be willing to help you?
Plus, if you own any property, it's probably going to be on the edges or low populated nodes, so I don't think you'll see much action. I don't think casuals will be able to afford citizenship
I'm going to think about the players as humans behind the screen.
And... it's the very fact that PvPers treat other players like pixels and NPCs rather than humans behind the screen that I prefer to play MMORPGs on servers that PvPers are not playing on.
Has nothing to do with fear.
We can lose stuff from mob attacks - losing stuff is not really the issue. Risk is not really the issue. We can have plenty of challenge and risk from mobs.
Hardcore players can afford that, casuals can't. A casual has 3 hours of gameplay, goes out to farm, they're not gonna be coming back to the node every 10 things mined, they will stay until bags are full. Casuals gets ganked. Casuals loses a lot of mats. Casual just lost 50% of time.
For a casual that's half the game time, for a hardcore it's just "a minor session". Rinse and repeat.
Eventually casuals is gonna say "I'm done wasting my time"
Then that’s your choice.
I understand that. We are still in the development stages. However I think this game might not be geared for many strictly pve characters. Maybe join a large guild and be the supreme crafter and such that never leaves the freehold. But unless the made a mirror server like UO's trammel it's prob not the place.
What I won't accept is being forced, by some other player, into PvP combat when I'm not in the mood for PvP.
You MIGHT be able to get me to play a game where I can always choose to punish the player who forces me into PvP with Corruption. But, I won't play a game with permanent zones that don't have something like the Corruption mechanic. Of course, even in the areas with Corruption... being forced into PvP would have to be exceedingly rare.
Once we get into the territory of auto-consent to PvP just be agreeing to play the game - I will refuse to play that game. Because I find the concept of auto-consent to PvP abhorrent.
Whether I win or lose the PvP encounter is irrelevant.
How much time I waste due to PvP could be an issue.
In general, even people with little time should be able to schedule in time for a Siege if they want to.
Even if you only have 20 minutes - doesn't hurt to spend the 20 minutes protecting your Node for as long as you can.
"Come join us as you wont like the taste of the Grapefruits we're throwing at our enemies."
"Never settle for what you think you know" - C. Krauthammer
Conflict in Ashes will be with both mobs and players. But you know this…
… and have decided accordingly. I don’t think the vast majority of folks - even here - have accepted this yet.
There will be other MMORPGs offering features similar to Ashes that are more casual friendly.
And... casuals are more likely to choose the easier route rather than the the more difficult one.
Yep. And this is will be an inflection point for a product being directed toward multiple segments or a targeted micro-segment.
Since NPCs and mobs actually are just pixels - I'm not sure conflict is the word I would use for any interactions with them.
@Liniker I usually agree with you... and hardly ever agree with @Noaani, but I think it is very possible both of you are correct from your perspectives and there is just not enough overlap in your two perspectives that you will ever see the others. You should join together to form a guild.
I vote for the Mayors.
I help choose what Services are available.
I help choose which Social Orgs are supported there.
And - I would expect to be quite social with the other players in that Node - since I will be progressing and defending the Node alongside them. Probably crafting and possibly trading with them, too.
As well as asking them to catch me up on the latest news while I've been offline.
Why would it take 5 months to know a couple of hardcores? And why would they not be willing to help you?
Ok.
There are four, just from this thread. @Dygz Please feel free to correct me if I have accidentally misquoted you.
Its just a basic truth that hardcore players get what they want -first- anywhere you go.
The angsty going around the forums in several threads right now, is that instead of -first-, the systems seem to be orienting themselves to -only-, as in, to exclude casual (or more clearly spoken, NORMAL players, as in the majority of players, almost all of us) from content.
This created a controversy which we can see by all the debate and discussion.
So if the system is hardcore -only- can do all the actually important things, what is there left for normal players to make this game fun. What is left to draw the rest of us into logging in to this game instead of other games, if normal players can't have any realistically achievable goals.
Even in grindlord games like bdo where hardcore players (or those with big bank accounts
In ashes, it seems that is impossible for a normal player to ever reach the desired pinnacle content without riding the coattails of a mega guild or group of sweaty players.
I'm not defending him, I just understand where he's coming from, because of my experience of interacting with you on these forums
Because i called you out on the concept that you will be able to do everything, so you should have no reason to complain about freeholds based on your words in your own post
Are you trying to argue that all people will play Ashes.
Steven even says that Ashes is not designed for everyone - so... I don't understand your concern.
There literally will be people who refuse to play Ashes.
People who love hardcore PvP will probably love Ashes - since that is the target audience.
I expect those people to have tons of fun playing - and I hope they do.
But, I predict that casual PvEers will mostly choose not to play Ashes. After Ashes launches - we'll see how accurate my prediction is.
Actually, it has no relevance at all.
I played BDO for a while.
My impression of its PvP was formed before I had engaged in PvP with anyone. Engaging in PvP later on simply backed up the opinion that I had already formed as being accurate. Others I have talked to on these forums have backed up that opinion as being valid and accurate.
I will happily talk about the general nature of that game (not with you, however). I wont get in to the details of classes, builds and gear, because THAT is what you need to have put significant time in to understand.
However, the general nature of PvP can be determined in minutes - before even engaging in PvP.
That is what I said where you quoted me.
Keep in mind what my original comment in this regard was. I didn't say PvP in MMO's shouldn't exist, I didn't say Ashes should drop PvP - what I said was "There are far better genres for PvP gameplay than MMO's."
This is an objective fact. No one with a brain would argue against this point.
The miltiple hundreds of millions of MOBA, BR and FPS combined gamers simply don't compare to the few million MMO PvP players. If the MMORPG genre was indeed the best genre for PvP, then those hundreds of millions of players would be playing PvP based MMORPG's.
However, lets take your comment above, but still keep it within the context of me saying there are better genres for PvP than MMORPG's.
You are talking about the major battles of large groups going up against large groups. The absolute undisputed king of this kind of gameplay - I think most would agree - is EVE.
The thing is, after every major battle in EVE, the games population drops. Sometimes by a double digit percentage.
Now, you are arguing that this is a good thing. I am saying that it is this very fact (among other things) that points to MMORPG's not being the best genre for PvP.
lol. nope. i am saying you are subtly (not as much as you think) trying to change Steven's mind about pvp.
i will see you in hello kitty island before that happens.
honestly, if you guys did peyote together, this would be moot.
If I wanted to try to change his mind, I would just straight up tell him he should change his mind.
I would also clearly state that here in the Forums.
I don't want Steven to change his mind.
they are the exact thing you said you did not say. lol. i cannot support you any longer if you do not recognize this fact @dygz feedback required.
No that's not it, but you've proven my point in a way.
You just keep making assumptions about people and their arguments, even when replying to a post, you completely make up an argument that doesn't exist in the post at all, kinda like putting words in people's mouth, as you've said. You're just projecting. You accuse him of doing the exact stuff that you are actually doing. Not to mention the constant derailing of arguments, and focusing on moot points.
And it's not the first time. As I've said, I had a fair share of those interactions with you previously a few months back. You just kept making weird and false assumptions about me, and the stuff I said or believed in, just based on the fact that I disagreed with you on a certain topic, and argued in favor of the thing you didn't seem to like that much (if I remember correctly it was about combat systems and tab vs action).
Whenever you don't do those sort of things, you actually can make a valid point, but that's very rare.
You stated I said, "People will not be playing this game."
I never said that.
Rather, what I said, very specifically is: If you have poor reading comprehension and cannot properly grasp context, that is your own battle to fight.
I can't help you with that.
I very clearly stated that there will be people who love playing Ashes.
Your paraphrase of what I actually wrote is ludicrous.
If you can't see that...