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Should most players simply avoid all processing artisan paths?

1246

Comments

  • Ayeveegaming1Ayeveegaming1 Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Kionashi wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Dhaiwon wrote: »
    @Sathrago Buying the gear only works if you craft only to get the gear. For someone whom the crafting-aspect is the main-draw of the game, that is not going to work.

    you can only max 2 professions of the same type with a character. if you decide to be a processor, even if you own a fh, you cant craft. you can craft with an alt for sure, but maybe only 2 things? since you cant process everything. so if you want to have 4-5 alts so that you can craft every single thing in the game, you still need other players because you can only process 2 things on your fh. also, we dont know how many alt you can have...

    so people complaining that they wont have access to every artisan profession because they dont have a fh makes no sense because you wouldn't have access to them anyways even if you had a fh...and im glad it is like this. i dont want to feel like im forced to spend 39475475 hours in different professions to master everything to craft everything, like in new world or eso. and then no one will sell anything at some point because everybody can make everything.

    also, you can do up to t3 in everything wether you have a fh or not. so there you go, you can still farm your tomatoes.

    The issue is not that I wont be able to make everything, If Im a farmer I don't mind I can't make boats...but at least since I decided I want to be farmer I want to be able to plant every seed, not only T3 and lower seeds...

    you can, just be a citizen of a freehold
    vmw4o7x2etm1.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Citizen of a...Freehold??
  • SathragoSathrago Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Oh no! The entire argument crashes to the ground with the force of a thousand suns! He accidentally said freehold instead of node.

    Our English teachers weep and Dygz poses triumphantly above the desiccated corpse of Ravicus' posts.


    But seriously you didn't need to post that, We have been talking about freehold this and that for what feels like weeks now.
    8vf24h7y7lio.jpg
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • Ayeveegaming1Ayeveegaming1 Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Oh no! The entire argument crashes to the ground with the force of a thousand suns! He accidentally said freehold instead of node.

    Our English teachers weep and Dygz poses triumphantly above the desiccated corpse of Ravicus' posts.


    But seriously you didn't need to post that, We have been talking about freehold this and that for what feels like weeks now.

    Yep, alt tabbing between baldurs gate and this haha, Ya I made a huge mistake that I will surely suffer for!
    vmw4o7x2etm1.png
  • SengardenSengarden Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Yes, some people might sell their family access. At least that's what Steven wants them to do. But I'd be very interested in seeing how many people will actually do that in the game.
    Hmmn. I think Steven said people could do that. I don't think Steven indicated he wants people to do that.
    If he wanted people to do it, he would design a UI for it.

    Why?
    How can you be so conditioned in doing what's scripted, and actually LIKE those types of mmos?
    Anything is possible in mmos with Gold as the suprime currency. Anything is possible when /trade between players is allowed.
    Scripted gameplay prohibits player agency and player driven content.

    "There is an outstanding question on whether or not we should provide permissions to members who are not a part of a social structure. And what I mean by a social structure is not just that, Hey, you know, I found Joe Blow on the side of the street, and he needs access to this thing, I'm just going to open the permissions to public. Personally, I don't think that achieves the goal of the system. I don't think that's a desired quality. I think that we need to have a more formalized structure in place which is given through the family system and/or through guild systems." - Steven Sherif

    Steven goes on to say that this is likely the way that the testing version will be rolled out, and they'll take feedback on it, but I don't need to tell you that they'll have their way (and their reasons) in the end.

    As always, there's a sliding scale here between entirely player driven content with no scripted systems, and a totally on-rails system where there's no player agency. Having scripted systems that try to curb certain types of behavior, if done well, should be done in order to prevent behavior which is antithetical to the wholistic systems which support the overall gameplay experience.

    Yes, you can still trade someone gold for a place in their family or a place in their guild to get FH access, but what if IS then makes it so you need to be a member of the family or the guild for two weeks before you can use another member's freehold equipment because too many players are getting rich off selling FH access to other players several times a day instead of the more time-gated (seemingly intentional) design of only making money off your freehold via the products you produce on it? Are we going to turn FH owners into full-time equipment rental agencies because they have to compete with each other in order to not be left behind in this new and exciting equipment rental market game?

    If IS makes design decisions that gate certain behaviors, I would hope they've done it intelligently in such a way that prevents gameplay trends which players feel aren't necessarily fun or even an intended feature of the game just so that they aren't being left behind.
  • Depraved wrote: »
    DrDefault wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    the gamer dad with 5 wives isnt gonna get most things in games where there is competition

    Translation: I don’t have a full time job, a significant other, nor a higher education I’m pursuing. I sit at home all day and do nothing.

    Translation: im a whiner with victim mentality who needs daddy to fix my life for me and other people to adapt me and my whims.

    i actually have all those things, but i can play at work. in fact, im working right now :D

    i cant play 10-15 hours everyday like i could before at some point, i can play maybe 3 hours a day with the rest of the time playing semi afk at work, and and maybe i can play a little bit more on some days and you never see me complaining here that casuals wont get to the top or that i wont get a fh, etc.

    stop crying :D

    tl;dr

    I assume I touched a nerve, given the wall of texted you responded with. What a whiner.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Sengarden wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Yes, some people might sell their family access. At least that's what Steven wants them to do. But I'd be very interested in seeing how many people will actually do that in the game.
    Hmmn. I think Steven said people could do that. I don't think Steven indicated he wants people to do that.
    If he wanted people to do it, he would design a UI for it.

    Why?
    How can you be so conditioned in doing what's scripted, and actually LIKE those types of mmos?
    Anything is possible in mmos with Gold as the suprime currency. Anything is possible when /trade between players is allowed.
    Scripted gameplay prohibits player agency and player driven content.

    "There is an outstanding question on whether or not we should provide permissions to members who are not a part of a social structure. And what I mean by a social structure is not just that, Hey, you know, I found Joe Blow on the side of the street, and he needs access to this thing, I'm just going to open the permissions to public. Personally, I don't think that achieves the goal of the system. I don't think that's a desired quality. I think that we need to have a more formalized structure in place which is given through the family system and/or through guild systems." - Steven Sherif

    Steven goes on to say that this is likely the way that the testing version will be rolled out, and they'll take feedback on it, but I don't need to tell you that they'll have their way (and their reasons) in the end.

    As always, there's a sliding scale here between entirely player driven content with no scripted systems, and a totally on-rails system where there's no player agency. Having scripted systems that try to curb certain types of behavior, if done well, should be done in order to prevent behavior which is antithetical to the wholistic systems which support the overall gameplay experience.

    Yes, you can still trade someone gold for a place in their family or a place in their guild to get FH access, but what if IS then makes it so you need to be a member of the family or the guild for two weeks before you can use another member's freehold equipment because too many players are getting rich off selling FH access to other players several times a day instead of the more time-gated (seemingly intentional) design of only making money off your freehold via the products you produce on it? Are we going to turn FH owners into full-time equipment rental agencies because they have to compete with each other in order to not be left behind in this new and exciting equipment rental market game?

    If IS makes design decisions that gate certain behaviors, I would hope they've done it intelligently in such a way that prevents gameplay trends which players feel aren't necessarily fun or even an intended feature of the game just so that they aren't being left behind.

    I am not against restrictions. Many times I have said that they are necessary for people to learn to hear "no" once in a while and give up on their sense of entitlement.
    Nor have I said anything about selling FH access on the fly. When the monthly update revealed the progress to FHs one of the first things I said was that we need high cooldown for inviting family members and /leavefamily.

    Players will sell family membership, just not on the fly. You can't prevent people from joining your family, unless you want to turn this game in yet another solo/vendor currency questing/daily mmo, in which player /trade doesn't exist and gold can only buy you healing potions from NPCs.

    If FH access can be given to guild members, zerg guils will rule.
    FH access should be capped at family members only. Not sure what you found wrong with my post and you decided to link me a bit of Steven, about something irrelevant, even though it seemed to you relevant at a quick glance.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    DrDefault wrote: »
    Translation: I don’t have a full time job, a significant other, nor a higher education I’m pursuing. I sit at home all day and do nothing.

    you know, some of us had success in life and have now a lot of free time, others like steven retired very early on, others work from home and can play during work

    not all of us have 5 jobs, 16 wifes, 20 kids and 19 dogs
    img]
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  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Dygz wrote: »
    Which doesn't mean I will never, ever, ever...under no circumstances set foot on Verra after launch.
    I expect to pop in sometimes to socialize, attend parties and events... but it will be more of a cosplay thing than pursuing any of the progression paths.
    If Fantmx asked me to milk some of the cows on his Freehold or harvest some hay - I might do that for 20 or 30 minutes, but...

    And so Dygz has changed his core tenant of not playing "games with non consensual pvp". or whatever

    This is a bait and switch, car saleman move... or so some will say. Dygz will say it is consistent with his stance all along.

    Where have I heard this story before?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    It does depend on what you mean by “play”.
  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    It does depend on what you mean by “play”.

    LOL, if you only gave Intrepid a fraction of the leeway you give yourself.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think you'll find that I give Intrepid considerably more leeway than I give myself.
  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    I think you'll find that I give Intrepid considerably more leeway than I give myself.

    it seems silly to argue, but that has not been my take on your stance... and I pay pretty close attention.

    but, you be you boo. (I think you said that once.)
  • Liniker wrote: »
    DrDefault wrote: »
    Translation: I don’t have a full time job, a significant other, nor a higher education I’m pursuing. I sit at home all day and do nothing.

    you know, some of us had success in life and have now a lot of free time, others like steven retired very early on, others work from home and can play during work

    not all of us have 5 jobs, 16 wifes, 20 kids and 19 dogs

    So you sit at home all day and do nothing, just say that. Kek
  • Ravicus wrote: »
    Kionashi wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Dhaiwon wrote: »
    @Sathrago Buying the gear only works if you craft only to get the gear. For someone whom the crafting-aspect is the main-draw of the game, that is not going to work.

    you can only max 2 professions of the same type with a character. if you decide to be a processor, even if you own a fh, you cant craft. you can craft with an alt for sure, but maybe only 2 things? since you cant process everything. so if you want to have 4-5 alts so that you can craft every single thing in the game, you still need other players because you can only process 2 things on your fh. also, we dont know how many alt you can have...

    so people complaining that they wont have access to every artisan profession because they dont have a fh makes no sense because you wouldn't have access to them anyways even if you had a fh...and im glad it is like this. i dont want to feel like im forced to spend 39475475 hours in different professions to master everything to craft everything, like in new world or eso. and then no one will sell anything at some point because everybody can make everything.

    also, you can do up to t3 in everything wether you have a fh or not. so there you go, you can still farm your tomatoes.

    The issue is not that I wont be able to make everything, If Im a farmer I don't mind I can't make boats...but at least since I decided I want to be farmer I want to be able to plant every seed, not only T3 and lower seeds...

    you can, just be a citizen of a freehold

    I don't think being a citizen of a node would help me, If In order to plant T5 T6 seeds I need a freehold, I don't see how to being a citizen of a node will help me because I wont be able to plant those anyways unless I can outbid all the big guilds in the node, which is virtually impossible. (btw Im assuming farming is processing, if that's not the case bear with me and assume Im talking about ingots or something).

    btw Im talking as a dedicated artisan, I know I can sell 100000000 T3 tomatoes and buy all the gear I want, but part of the enjoyment of being a dedicated artisan is the progression path and I don't want to be robbed of the experience of improving my farm because some nerds really need all the freeholds in the node to compete in an economic war against other nerds in the other side of the planet.

    And again, Im not saying I should have a freehold, no, I don't mind that aspect being exclusive to dedicated players, but I simply don't see why there is the need to cap the progression of some artisan professions exclusively for those nerds.



    ,
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    DrDefault wrote: »

    So you sit at home all day and do nothing, just say that. Kek

    If I want to, yes, because I can afford to do that,

    why are you worried about what other people do with their free time tho? lmao
    img]
    Recrutamento aberto - Nosso Site: Clique aqui
  • Liniker wrote: »
    DrDefault wrote: »

    So you sit at home all day and do nothing, just say that. Kek

    If I want to, yes, because I can afford to do that,

    why are you worried about what other people do with their free time tho? lmao

    >Worried
    Kek, why are you getting so defensive? Good thing you sit at home all day man, this game is made for people like you.
  • Kionashi wrote: »
    Ravicus wrote: »
    Kionashi wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Dhaiwon wrote: »
    @Sathrago Buying the gear only works if you craft only to get the gear. For someone whom the crafting-aspect is the main-draw of the game, that is not going to work.

    you can only max 2 professions of the same type with a character. if you decide to be a processor, even if you own a fh, you cant craft. you can craft with an alt for sure, but maybe only 2 things? since you cant process everything. so if you want to have 4-5 alts so that you can craft every single thing in the game, you still need other players because you can only process 2 things on your fh. also, we dont know how many alt you can have...

    so people complaining that they wont have access to every artisan profession because they dont have a fh makes no sense because you wouldn't have access to them anyways even if you had a fh...and im glad it is like this. i dont want to feel like im forced to spend 39475475 hours in different professions to master everything to craft everything, like in new world or eso. and then no one will sell anything at some point because everybody can make everything.

    also, you can do up to t3 in everything wether you have a fh or not. so there you go, you can still farm your tomatoes.

    The issue is not that I wont be able to make everything, If Im a farmer I don't mind I can't make boats...but at least since I decided I want to be farmer I want to be able to plant every seed, not only T3 and lower seeds...

    you can, just be a citizen of a freehold

    I don't think being a citizen of a node would help me, If In order to plant T5 T6 seeds I need a freehold, I don't see how to being a citizen of a node will help me because I wont be able to plant those anyways unless I can outbid all the big guilds in the node, which is virtually impossible. (btw Im assuming farming is processing, if that's not the case bear with me and assume Im talking about ingots or something).

    btw Im talking as a dedicated artisan, I know I can sell 100000000 T3 tomatoes and buy all the gear I want, but part of the enjoyment of being a dedicated artisan is the progression path and I don't want to be robbed of the experience of improving my farm because some nerds really need all the freeholds in the node to compete in an economic war against other nerds in the other side of the planet.

    And again, Im not saying I should have a freehold, no, I don't mind that aspect being exclusive to dedicated players, but I simply don't see why there is the need to cap the progression of some artisan professions exclusively for those nerds.



    ,

    Couldn't you sell those '100000000' T3 tomatoes, And use the money to try and get a freehold?
    And from that point on try to maintain it by planting higher tier seeds?

    Fortune's Wrath <3
  • Ayeveegaming1Ayeveegaming1 Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Man, I can't handle all these walls of text.
    Kionashi wrote: »
    Ravicus wrote: »
    Kionashi wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Dhaiwon wrote: »
    @Sathrago Buying the gear only works if you craft only to get the gear. For someone whom the crafting-aspect is the main-draw of the game, that is not going to work.

    you can only max 2 professions of the same type with a character. if you decide to be a processor, even if you own a fh, you cant craft. you can craft with an alt for sure, but maybe only 2 things? since you cant process everything. so if you want to have 4-5 alts so that you can craft every single thing in the game, you still need other players because you can only process 2 things on your fh. also, we dont know how many alt you can have...

    so people complaining that they wont have access to every artisan profession because they dont have a fh makes no sense because you wouldn't have access to them anyways even if you had a fh...and im glad it is like this. i dont want to feel like im forced to spend 39475475 hours in different professions to master everything to craft everything, like in new world or eso. and then no one will sell anything at some point because everybody can make everything.

    also, you can do up to t3 in everything wether you have a fh or not. so there you go, you can still farm your tomatoes.

    The issue is not that I wont be able to make everything, If Im a farmer I don't mind I can't make boats...but at least since I decided I want to be farmer I want to be able to plant every seed, not only T3 and lower seeds...

    you can, just be a citizen of a freehold

    I don't think being a citizen of a node would help me, If In order to plant T5 T6 seeds I need a freehold, I don't see how to being a citizen of a node will help me because I wont be able to plant those anyways unless I can outbid all the big guilds in the node, which is virtually impossible. (btw Im assuming farming is processing, if that's not the case bear with me and assume Im talking about ingots or something).

    btw Im talking as a dedicated artisan, I know I can sell 100000000 T3 tomatoes and buy all the gear I want, but part of the enjoyment of being a dedicated artisan is the progression path and I don't want to be robbed of the experience of improving my farm because some nerds really need all the freeholds in the node to compete in an economic war against other nerds in the other side of the planet.

    And again, Im not saying I should have a freehold, no, I don't mind that aspect being exclusive to dedicated players, but I simply don't see why there is the need to cap the progression of some artisan professions exclusively for those nerds.



    ,

    Well the only way other than becoming a citizen and wanting to have a great big tomatoe garden is to own your own node then. And to do that you will need to be able to pay for it, and to defend it. There is no way that you will be able to be a peaceful tomato farmer playing solo. So unless you group and get a node, or join a group with a node, then you probably are going to have a hard time in this game. Its not going to change.
    vmw4o7x2etm1.png
  • FantmxFantmx Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    it's designed for scarcity in order to bring people together, I would add.
    How many times people in ESO have said to me "can I craft something for you?" and I "said no. I can craft anything I want. Everybody that played for more than 2 months can craft anything they want." And that was it. No real need for true interaction.

    I believe you're missing the point of what people are asking for. I agree that someone being able to level all professions/artisan skills on one character is bad. I strongly dislike that in FFXiv. The thing is, nobody is asking for that here. I think we can all agree that the current design of 2 maxed skills and they have to be in the same tree is good design.

    What people ARE asking for is to let people pick whichever two they want and have a realistic chance of being able to max them out. As it currently stands anything in the processing tree is out of touch for the majority of the player base. That includes MMO staples like cooking and alchemy along with the shiny new animal husbandry that so many are excited about.

    I think people are confusing "access to all but maintaining the 2 max" with "access to all at the same time".

    Basically this.

    Keeping players limited to two max skills and making leveling difficult and time consuming still creates scarcity and the need for interdependence.

    And there are other ways to further introduce scarcity that does not involve limiting character and player growth.

    For example you could:
    1. Reduce overall harvestables in the world
    2. Increase the amount of base items need to produce one processed or crafted item
    3. Introduce a repair system that requires the use of gatherables being processed into repair items
    4. Introduce a durability system where eventually any crafted item that is a final product will become unusable
    5. Give seed and animal propagation limited use so you eventually have to start from scratch
    6. Tie harvested items to periods of time so that nothing is always available
    q1nu38cjgq3j.png
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    DrDefault wrote: »

    Good thing you sit at home all day man, this game is made for people like you.

    yea it's awesome to finally have an MMO to look forward to
    img]
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  • FantmxFantmx Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Liniker wrote: »
    DrDefault wrote: »

    Good thing you sit at home all day man, this game is made for people like you.

    yea it's awesome to finally have an MMO to look forward to

    Don't let people shame you for your success.

    That goes for everyone on this forum.
    q1nu38cjgq3j.png
  • Kionashi wrote: »
    Ravicus wrote: »
    Kionashi wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Dhaiwon wrote: »
    @Sathrago Buying the gear only works if you craft only to get the gear. For someone whom the crafting-aspect is the main-draw of the game, that is not going to work.

    you can only max 2 professions of the same type with a character. if you decide to be a processor, even if you own a fh, you cant craft. you can craft with an alt for sure, but maybe only 2 things? since you cant process everything. so if you want to have 4-5 alts so that you can craft every single thing in the game, you still need other players because you can only process 2 things on your fh. also, we dont know how many alt you can have...

    so people complaining that they wont have access to every artisan profession because they dont have a fh makes no sense because you wouldn't have access to them anyways even if you had a fh...and im glad it is like this. i dont want to feel like im forced to spend 39475475 hours in different professions to master everything to craft everything, like in new world or eso. and then no one will sell anything at some point because everybody can make everything.

    also, you can do up to t3 in everything wether you have a fh or not. so there you go, you can still farm your tomatoes.

    The issue is not that I wont be able to make everything, If Im a farmer I don't mind I can't make boats...but at least since I decided I want to be farmer I want to be able to plant every seed, not only T3 and lower seeds...

    you can, just be a citizen of a freehold

    I don't think being a citizen of a node would help me, If In order to plant T5 T6 seeds I need a freehold, I don't see how to being a citizen of a node will help me because I wont be able to plant those anyways unless I can outbid all the big guilds in the node, which is virtually impossible. (btw Im assuming farming is processing, if that's not the case bear with me and assume Im talking about ingots or something).

    btw Im talking as a dedicated artisan, I know I can sell 100000000 T3 tomatoes and buy all the gear I want, but part of the enjoyment of being a dedicated artisan is the progression path and I don't want to be robbed of the experience of improving my farm because some nerds really need all the freeholds in the node to compete in an economic war against other nerds in the other side of the planet.

    And again, Im not saying I should have a freehold, no, I don't mind that aspect being exclusive to dedicated players, but I simply don't see why there is the need to cap the progression of some artisan professions exclusively for those nerds.



    ,

    Couldn't you sell those '100000000' T3 tomatoes, And use the money to try and get a freehold?
    And from that point on try to maintain it by planting higher tier seeds?

    Not really because by the time I get to sell those 100000000 T3 tomatoes someone with way more free time probably already sold 3 times that amount and is sitting on a bigger heap of gold to outbid me for the fh.
    Ravicus wrote: »
    Man, I can't handle all these walls of text.
    Kionashi wrote: »
    Ravicus wrote: »
    Kionashi wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Dhaiwon wrote: »
    @Sathrago Buying the gear only works if you craft only to get the gear. For someone whom the crafting-aspect is the main-draw of the game, that is not going to work.

    you can only max 2 professions of the same type with a character. if you decide to be a processor, even if you own a fh, you cant craft. you can craft with an alt for sure, but maybe only 2 things? since you cant process everything. so if you want to have 4-5 alts so that you can craft every single thing in the game, you still need other players because you can only process 2 things on your fh. also, we dont know how many alt you can have...

    so people complaining that they wont have access to every artisan profession because they dont have a fh makes no sense because you wouldn't have access to them anyways even if you had a fh...and im glad it is like this. i dont want to feel like im forced to spend 39475475 hours in different professions to master everything to craft everything, like in new world or eso. and then no one will sell anything at some point because everybody can make everything.

    also, you can do up to t3 in everything wether you have a fh or not. so there you go, you can still farm your tomatoes.

    The issue is not that I wont be able to make everything, If Im a farmer I don't mind I can't make boats...but at least since I decided I want to be farmer I want to be able to plant every seed, not only T3 and lower seeds...

    you can, just be a citizen of a freehold

    I don't think being a citizen of a node would help me, If In order to plant T5 T6 seeds I need a freehold, I don't see how to being a citizen of a node will help me because I wont be able to plant those anyways unless I can outbid all the big guilds in the node, which is virtually impossible. (btw Im assuming farming is processing, if that's not the case bear with me and assume Im talking about ingots or something).

    btw Im talking as a dedicated artisan, I know I can sell 100000000 T3 tomatoes and buy all the gear I want, but part of the enjoyment of being a dedicated artisan is the progression path and I don't want to be robbed of the experience of improving my farm because some nerds really need all the freeholds in the node to compete in an economic war against other nerds in the other side of the planet.

    And again, Im not saying I should have a freehold, no, I don't mind that aspect being exclusive to dedicated players, but I simply don't see why there is the need to cap the progression of some artisan professions exclusively for those nerds.



    ,

    Well the only way other than becoming a citizen and wanting to have a great big tomatoe garden is to own your own node then. And to do that you will need to be able to pay for it, and to defend it. There is no way that you will be able to be a peaceful tomato farmer playing solo. So unless you group and get a node, or join a group with a node, then you probably are going to have a hard time in this game. Its not going to change.

    That's why Im suggesting keep higher tier processing out of the freeholds! I don't really want a freehold!, I just want a T6 tomato farm :'(
  • Ayeveegaming1Ayeveegaming1 Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Kionashi wrote: »
    Kionashi wrote: »
    Ravicus wrote: »
    Kionashi wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Dhaiwon wrote: »
    @Sathrago Buying the gear only works if you craft only to get the gear. For someone whom the crafting-aspect is the main-draw of the game, that is not going to work.

    you can only max 2 professions of the same type with a character. if you decide to be a processor, even if you own a fh, you cant craft. you can craft with an alt for sure, but maybe only 2 things? since you cant process everything. so if you want to have 4-5 alts so that you can craft every single thing in the game, you still need other players because you can only process 2 things on your fh. also, we dont know how many alt you can have...

    so people complaining that they wont have access to every artisan profession because they dont have a fh makes no sense because you wouldn't have access to them anyways even if you had a fh...and im glad it is like this. i dont want to feel like im forced to spend 39475475 hours in different professions to master everything to craft everything, like in new world or eso. and then no one will sell anything at some point because everybody can make everything.

    also, you can do up to t3 in everything wether you have a fh or not. so there you go, you can still farm your tomatoes.

    The issue is not that I wont be able to make everything, If Im a farmer I don't mind I can't make boats...but at least since I decided I want to be farmer I want to be able to plant every seed, not only T3 and lower seeds...

    you can, just be a citizen of a freehold

    I don't think being a citizen of a node would help me, If In order to plant T5 T6 seeds I need a freehold, I don't see how to being a citizen of a node will help me because I wont be able to plant those anyways unless I can outbid all the big guilds in the node, which is virtually impossible. (btw Im assuming farming is processing, if that's not the case bear with me and assume Im talking about ingots or something).

    btw Im talking as a dedicated artisan, I know I can sell 100000000 T3 tomatoes and buy all the gear I want, but part of the enjoyment of being a dedicated artisan is the progression path and I don't want to be robbed of the experience of improving my farm because some nerds really need all the freeholds in the node to compete in an economic war against other nerds in the other side of the planet.

    And again, Im not saying I should have a freehold, no, I don't mind that aspect being exclusive to dedicated players, but I simply don't see why there is the need to cap the progression of some artisan professions exclusively for those nerds.



    ,

    Couldn't you sell those '100000000' T3 tomatoes, And use the money to try and get a freehold?
    And from that point on try to maintain it by planting higher tier seeds?

    Not really because by the time I get to sell those 100000000 T3 tomatoes someone with way more free time probably already sold 3 times that amount and is sitting on a bigger heap of gold to outbid me for the fh.
    Ravicus wrote: »
    Man, I can't handle all these walls of text.
    Kionashi wrote: »
    Ravicus wrote: »
    Kionashi wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Dhaiwon wrote: »
    @Sathrago Buying the gear only works if you craft only to get the gear. For someone whom the crafting-aspect is the main-draw of the game, that is not going to work.

    you can only max 2 professions of the same type with a character. if you decide to be a processor, even if you own a fh, you cant craft. you can craft with an alt for sure, but maybe only 2 things? since you cant process everything. so if you want to have 4-5 alts so that you can craft every single thing in the game, you still need other players because you can only process 2 things on your fh. also, we dont know how many alt you can have...

    so people complaining that they wont have access to every artisan profession because they dont have a fh makes no sense because you wouldn't have access to them anyways even if you had a fh...and im glad it is like this. i dont want to feel like im forced to spend 39475475 hours in different professions to master everything to craft everything, like in new world or eso. and then no one will sell anything at some point because everybody can make everything.

    also, you can do up to t3 in everything wether you have a fh or not. so there you go, you can still farm your tomatoes.

    The issue is not that I wont be able to make everything, If Im a farmer I don't mind I can't make boats...but at least since I decided I want to be farmer I want to be able to plant every seed, not only T3 and lower seeds...

    you can, just be a citizen of a freehold

    I don't think being a citizen of a node would help me, If In order to plant T5 T6 seeds I need a freehold, I don't see how to being a citizen of a node will help me because I wont be able to plant those anyways unless I can outbid all the big guilds in the node, which is virtually impossible. (btw Im assuming farming is processing, if that's not the case bear with me and assume Im talking about ingots or something).

    btw Im talking as a dedicated artisan, I know I can sell 100000000 T3 tomatoes and buy all the gear I want, but part of the enjoyment of being a dedicated artisan is the progression path and I don't want to be robbed of the experience of improving my farm because some nerds really need all the freeholds in the node to compete in an economic war against other nerds in the other side of the planet.

    And again, Im not saying I should have a freehold, no, I don't mind that aspect being exclusive to dedicated players, but I simply don't see why there is the need to cap the progression of some artisan professions exclusively for those nerds.



    ,

    Well the only way other than becoming a citizen and wanting to have a great big tomatoe garden is to own your own node then. And to do that you will need to be able to pay for it, and to defend it. There is no way that you will be able to be a peaceful tomato farmer playing solo. So unless you group and get a node, or join a group with a node, then you probably are going to have a hard time in this game. Its not going to change.

    That's why Im suggesting keep higher tier processing out of the freeholds! I don't really want a freehold!, I just want a T6 tomato farm :'(

    Well thats not gonna happen. Keep banging your head on the wall to see if it helps though.
    vmw4o7x2etm1.png
  • SathragoSathrago Member, Alpha Two
    Can we break up the reply chain here? yall pingin me every post lol
    8vf24h7y7lio.jpg
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • PherPhurPherPhur Member
    edited July 2023
    Abarat wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    It does depend on what you mean by “play”.

    LOL, if you only gave Intrepid a fraction of the leeway you give yourself.


    I'm dying :D
    5lntw0unofqp.gif
  • oOKingOooOKingOo Member, Alpha Two
    Kionashi wrote: »
    I mean if freeholds are an exclusive feature that only will be accessible for a tiny percentage of the player base, I think it would be pointless for a casual player or a player who simply has little game time to even attempt to begin on the processing artisan paths at all.... I mean why even bother if you are going to hit a dead end eventually? Is not like crafting because if you need T-5 ingredients you can simply save up money to eventually buy it, or organizing with a group to attempt the World boss that drops that item...that's something everyone can do...of course hardcore players would have it easier but a casual players with time a patience will get there eventually too.

    But again because the Freeholds are such an exclusive commodity is fair to assume all freeholds will be owned at all times by the sweatiest nerds on the server who can afford to play 12h a day which allows them to outbid anyone who dares to attempt to get a freehold, basically keeping everybody else literally unable to access T5-6 processing stations.

    No amount of time or dedication will allow a gamer dad with 5 wives and 10 dogs to outbid someone who simply has more play time than him.

    So considering the system as we can see it right now, if you know you only will be able to play on weekends, or a couple hours per day, is there even a point on starting on the processing artisan paths at all?

    I mean sure, you can get T1 to T4 items which is nice, but eventually you will hit max level and will need T5, T6 gear to play endgame content so being able to make those low tier items wont get you any further on your artisan path. Not to mention all those feelbad moments of "hey I got this ultra rare drop from this endgame boss...but I don't have a freehold so I can't make anything with it even though I decided to dedicate myself to an artisan path that uses this kind of items, I guess I'll sell it or whatever". At this point you are no longer an artisan because the content you will do won't give you anything to progress on your artisan path.

    But yeah, unless something changes I think the best strategy for most players would be to avoid all processing paths and focus on crafting/ gathering since those would allow you to reach the endgame without being limited for not being part of the 10% of the population that can get a freehold.

    I mean first of its kinda wild to assume that only a tiny percentage will have access to to freeholds. Most players will be in a guild or family and will have access to one some way ot another. Also it can change every month so maybe you dont have one today but u can have one next month.

    If you want to persue crafting is pretty subjective.
    I probably wont that much because im a pvp player. Ill maybe do some animal husbandry cuz its cool but not planning on being a master crafter.
    If you enjoy crafting you should obviously focus on this because its for sure gonna be a good way to earn money and also give you extra social credit. Lets say your the only T6 Master crafter in this city. No one will ever harass you because then theyre basically locked out of t6 gear or its way harder for them to get.
    Theres definitly reasons but it depends what you enjoy i would say.
    For the empyre !!!
  • Ravicus wrote: »
    Well thats not gonna happen. Keep banging your head on the wall to see if it helps though.

    I wouldn't be so sure, I mean we are still in alpha and Steven said everything is subject to change, especially considering that "blocking high level processing behind freeholds" is not part of the core design pillars of the game. So I will push my feedback in order to present a compelling argument in favor to changing that limitation.
    Kionashi wrote: »
    I mean if freeholds are an exclusive feature that only will be accessible for a tiny percentage of the player base, I think it would be pointless for a casual player or a player who simply has little game time to even attempt to begin on the processing artisan paths at all.... I mean why even bother if you are going to hit a dead end eventually? Is not like crafting because if you need T-5 ingredients you can simply save up money to eventually buy it, or organizing with a group to attempt the World boss that drops that item...that's something everyone can do...of course hardcore players would have it easier but a casual players with time a patience will get there eventually too.

    But again because the Freeholds are such an exclusive commodity is fair to assume all freeholds will be owned at all times by the sweatiest nerds on the server who can afford to play 12h a day which allows them to outbid anyone who dares to attempt to get a freehold, basically keeping everybody else literally unable to access T5-6 processing stations.

    No amount of time or dedication will allow a gamer dad with 5 wives and 10 dogs to outbid someone who simply has more play time than him.

    So considering the system as we can see it right now, if you know you only will be able to play on weekends, or a couple hours per day, is there even a point on starting on the processing artisan paths at all?

    I mean sure, you can get T1 to T4 items which is nice, but eventually you will hit max level and will need T5, T6 gear to play endgame content so being able to make those low tier items wont get you any further on your artisan path. Not to mention all those feelbad moments of "hey I got this ultra rare drop from this endgame boss...but I don't have a freehold so I can't make anything with it even though I decided to dedicate myself to an artisan path that uses this kind of items, I guess I'll sell it or whatever". At this point you are no longer an artisan because the content you will do won't give you anything to progress on your artisan path.

    But yeah, unless something changes I think the best strategy for most players would be to avoid all processing paths and focus on crafting/ gathering since those would allow you to reach the endgame without being limited for not being part of the 10% of the population that can get a freehold.

    I mean first of its kinda wild to assume that only a tiny percentage will have access to to freeholds. Most players will be in a guild or family and will have access to one some way ot another. Also it can change every month so maybe you dont have one today but u can have one next month.

    If you want to persue crafting is pretty subjective.
    I probably wont that much because im a pvp player. Ill maybe do some animal husbandry cuz its cool but not planning on being a master crafter.
    If you enjoy crafting you should obviously focus on this because its for sure gonna be a good way to earn money and also give you extra social credit. Lets say your the only T6 Master crafter in this city. No one will ever harass you because then theyre basically locked out of t6 gear or its way harder for them to get.
    Theres definitly reasons but it depends what you enjoy i would say.

    with the current system only the biggest guilds will be able to own a freehold since they can outbid everybody else, also don't you think it would be pretty convoluted to have a member of the guild swaping family members with every other guild member in order to le them process their goods? I don't think you can add and remove family members so easily, so what would probabbly happen is that the owner of the freehold will be used as crafting bot to process things for every guild member. which in theory sounds nice if you happen to be a pvper who only cares about the gear, but if you are an artisan you don't want someone to process your shit in your place, you want to do it yourself. It wouldn't be different to "simply sell your materials and buy the finished product" like most people who aren't engaged in the artisan path will do.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Kionashi wrote: »
    I mean if freeholds are an exclusive feature that only will be accessible for a tiny percentage of the player base, I think it would be pointless for a casual player or a player who simply has little game time to even attempt to begin on the processing artisan paths at all...
    @Kionashi

    I'm going to be super blunt here.

    As someone that has been trying to advocate for Ashes to be a game that is at least accepting of more casual players on terms that said casual players would agree with, I have to say that anyone that would avoid processing due only to it's exclusivity based on the need for a freehold should probably simply avoind the game.

    Not just processing. The game.

    That is because the way the game is looking right now, processing isn't the only thing that will have that exclusivity to it, or will place players in direct competition with large guilds in order to simply function.

    Being an absolute realist (something few on these forums ever try to be), if you are unable to get a freehold (or acceptable access to one), then you are likely to be unable to have access to other fairly major parts of the game.

    It will simply be a case of your time is likely to be better spent in another game, or on another entertainment activity all together.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Missed this cause chrome shuts off pages and then it autoscrolls the entire page :|
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Why cant those players just save money up and purchase the gear with the money they make from low-to-mid level processing? They still have housing options, they still have access to the artisan skill, they just failed to beat the competition out when it came to having access to a freehold.
    If FHs are completely controlled by guilds - you won't be able to buy gear. You probably won't even be able to buy mats. Because those guilds would have no reason to give out their gear to randos outside of their guild.

    Well, as long as bosses and quests don't just bombard you with loot for no damn reason.

    Top lvl gathering might still be available to solos/casuals, if resource respawns are even a bit random rather than completely predetermined. And if there is enough non-guild players in the game, those resources will go onto the market. Obviously guilds will probably buy out most of those purely because they'll have more time/opportunity to do so, but solo processors could still get some and get some profit by processing and selling them.

    In the current system any and all solo/casuals cannot get a FH, they cannot get top lvl mats (crafters probably not at all and processors miiight be able to get some), and they'll probably need months and months of grinding low-mid tier artisanry to level up higher (cause leveling artisanry will already be difficult and slow).
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Do you think everyone should be able to do every artisan skill to max too? Perhaps the limit there is to give more value and something to achieve in the game that means more than a little flash of light and a "you did it!" at the bottom of your screen?
    Not every skill. Just their chosen path. We'll be limited in our choices, so we already give up the ability to do other stuff. So I'd prefer if people could at least reach the end of their professions within somewhat reasonable time. And by reasonable I mean "1-2 weeks before that profession's end gets pushed further by an update". So the "treadmill" is still there, but there's a bait of "see, you can do it if you try". It keeps the people running and paying.
    There are no "solo" quests in L2. You go in there alone you get PKed or your mobs stolen. You won't complete the quest. Don't argue semantics or make hypothetical scenarios.
    Except I played L2 at C3 as a solo player and did quests and even finished them. And all of that was back when I was still a super noob. And AoC's corruption system will be even harsher, so people won't just be PKing you endlessly (not like they were in L2 to begin with).
    For a couple years now you side with the L2 way of playing an mmo, yet say "dont exclude the casuals".
    If an mmo engineers casual friendly systems, then the effort and thrill of group, effort can be achieved by people that don't have to try hard, and all the depth of the mmo goes out the window.
    People will complain in the end. Just like the vast silent hordes of casuals will enjoy the video game, happily falling through the cracks. But to sit down and start the designs taking in consideration the people who can't achieve certain things, will lead to the only solution of dampening down the systems.

    You are contradicting yourself. You can be at both sides and say "I hear you", "I hear you too". You are lying to one of them.
    I am not contradicting myself. I want a better L2, not the same fucking shit. I want a game that can live for 20+ years with a good amount of players instead of it going p2w within just a few years of release.
    Depraved wrote: »
    the fh will be like an epic jewel, you will give one to a cp, then the next one to another cp etc.
    Ok, but wouldn't your guild just buy up any and all EJ they can if they could? Cause that's exactly what guilds will be able to do with FHs. Unless the bidding process lasts weeks or months, the guilds that get to lvl50 first will buy up as many FHs as they can. Even if they lose majority of those - they would've still made their money back through high lvl processing, selling services, etc.
    Depraved wrote: »
    yeah but your guild members will be spread out in different node types, and there will also be people from other guilds, even your enemies, in those nodes. so what happens when your node declares war on another node? now you cant attack it because you would be attacking your own guild, and you cant really defend it because node faction > guild faction. its like territory wars in l2. then the drama starts and people leave the guild
    And I definitely hope and want this to happen. That drama is awesome and will put at least some limits on huge guilds. It still won't stop them from profiting from those FHs and won't stop them buying them all back with the money they made.
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