Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
its irrelevant to me if he has or hasnt. but from the things he says, it seems that he hasnt. my problem is, and this is a problem i have with many of the things being postd lately, is that people say this X thing should be like this or else its a bad design. people who never designed anything and cant define X. like ive said many times, its the equivalent of telling a doctor what medicine or treatment to give you, or telling a lawyer how to build your case, or a chef how to cook. you basically go to a doctor and tell him whats wrong, then you let him do his work.
You're gonna get a long explanation (not from me) about why this isn't that situation, but have at it.
I'll give you a shorter one though. This isn't that situation. Noaani could be right or wrong about this specific game, but it's not like the principle doesn't apply at all.
well, his principle is: it was good in eq so it has to be like that in every game
............
You're not even trying now are you, lol?
Fortunately for you I think Noaani actually really enjoys this sort of thing.
This one might be more of a Foxtrot...
he is right sometimes, ill give him that. but basically every time he is wrong, which is pretty often, he cant see it and his argument is what i said in my previous post, or somethign along the lines "in this other game i played it was X therefore it must be X in aoc or Y will happen, when he hasnt even played the main game aoc is based off.
imagine i go to final fantasy forums and say hey you MUST do open world pvp, because it was like that in l2 and it will be like this in aoc, otherwise the game will fail, it wont have a futre soon, this X thing will happen etc etc etc. im sure no one will tolerate that and tell me im being ridiculous. so why do we have to tolerate the same behavior here?
If you went to the Final Fantasy forums for some feature that they implied they were going to add and wanted to tell them how they should add it based on your experience, I'm sure there would be people who would tell you that you are being ridiculous.
I think those people would be wrong to tell you that.
do you tell a doctor how to treat you?
Not sure why me as a manager has any impact on this. However, as a manager of people that possess and make use of skills that I do not have, my job isn't to tell them what to do. My job is to inform them what we need from them, ask them what resources they need to be able to deliver that, and then find them those resources. Essentially, my job is to enable my team to do their job. I wouldn't ever even consider getting in to the details about what they do or do not test - they are grown ass people, they can make that decision themselves.
Other than the above, the only thing I do in my capacity of managing the people that possess these skills I do not possess, is that I sit down with them once they have enough progress to make this viable, and we go over the user experience of everything we have. There is an expectation that there will be several things that need to be changed after this sit down, and I have conditioned my team to expect and understand this. To me, if they have their heads deep inside the engine of what ever it is we are doing, I want them to focus on that engine, not on whether or not they accidently cut the wire to the window demister. We will discover the demister isn't working in our sit down later on, and can simply deal with it then (this is an analogy, I do not work in the automobile industry).
You are indeed correct that I do not build the software my team builds. I possess some of the skills, but not many. My job, however, other than enabling my team, is spotting design flaws (which, you may note, is what I have claimed to have done here).
Incidently, from the thread where I said Steven isn't a game developer, I also don't consider myself a software developer - I simply manage a team of software developers (among other people).
As to your comments about "Uncle Bob", he is more concerned with code than actual product design. I am not at all commenting on how Intrepid are building the game from a code perspective - I have no inherent reason to even know. I am looking at it (and criticizing it) from a product design perspective - which is something Uncle Bob simply doesn't concern himself with.
To your point about going to FFXIV forums and saying they need open world PvP, the thing I think you are missing is that I am pointing out issues here - I am not providing solutions.
It really is ok that you have no idea what is being talked about here.
If you wish to say that we do not know nearly enough about the game in its totality to state anything as fact, then by that logic you must agree that there is a chance I am right about my assertion. Using your own words, we do not know enough to state that what I said isn't true.
Only Intrepid know that. However, as with my analogy above, it is quite possible that they have had their head in the engine for so long they didn't notice that they cut the demister wire.
You seem to have fairly blind faith in Intrepid (not saying that is a bad thing). If this is the case, you have no reason to really say too much about my assumption earlier in this thread - but let me explain why.
If we work on the assumption that Intrepid are deserving of that faith of yours, they will look at my comment, and either decide there is merit to it, or there is not merit to it. If they decide there is not merit to it, then that is the end of it - no worries at all to you.
On the other hand, if they decide there is merit to it (which, since we don't know enough about the game in its totality to state this couldn't be the case), then what that means is that Intrepid may look in to it sooner.
Now, one thing I think most people would agree with in regards to New World is that a part of the issues the game had at launch was that they made fairly major changes to the game quite late in development. It wasn't necessarily the changes themselves, but rather how late they were made.
Assuming you believe the above about New World to be even partially true, that means the sooner issues that may require changes in design come to light, the better.
So, either Intrepid disagree with me and so no issue to you, or they agree with me and all I did was shed light on the issue sooner - which is good for everyone.
I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say "you're welcome".
well, that seems very reasonable. cant argue with you there. however, let me point out 1 thing. at your job, you are able to point out design flaws because you know all the aspects of the products and how different parts interact with others. no one in aoc knows how the things we've seen in isolation interact with all the other things we have seen and we havent seen.
im not saying there might not be any flaws, but people here claim that if "this thing is this way, it will fail and it has to be this other way" when they havent seen all the other aspects of the product.
also, yes you are right about uncle bob, but he also talks about a little about managerial stuff and how it affects the programmers
With that said, if I am wrong about how I see things, Intrepid will know. As such, they will ignore me, and that is fine.
However, if I am right, better it be said than not be said. In fact, better be said early rather than late.
I know from first hand experience how situations like what I think is the case can happen. If I am right, I dont consider that a negative thing for Intrepid, I dont think any less of them for getting in to that situation. To me, it's a situation that is bound to happen at some point in development of almost any product. It almost needs to happen to an extent - at least on a personal level.
The key thing though - again only if I am right - is how Intrepid deal with it.
I think the thing for some people to remember is that if I'm wrong (or if Steven thinks I am wrong), nothing at all will change. If I am right though, any changes that happen would have eventually had to have happened, but now they have more time to do a better job with them.
It is as easy as accepting other possibilities and not framing things as this and no matter what and nothing else. Shortsighted thoughts don't exactly speak of a strong manager. Viewing all things as negative and not from all angles is a sign of weakness if you are trying to understand all potential issues and strengths.
It's difficult to have a strong opinion without more information, but I think a casual player could still gain access to the highest-level processing stations with enough dedication over time and patience. Most sweat-lords won't want to spend all day processing, there are avenues through which someone who doesn't own one can still gain access to the stations, people may (almost certainly will) sell access but no one will purchase it at unprofitable prices so there should be some margin on purchased usage even if it's nowhere near the level of owned/free usage.
In short, if a casual REALLY wants to be a processor, I think they'll be able to. They just may be more like tenants/workers rather than owners, reminiscent of real life.
I personally don't think that's ideal given the appeal of processing activities to casuals (likely above that of the sweaty), but I also don't think it'll be impossible.
Steven is not the equivalent of a doctor.
He does not have any kind of university degree in game design.
He does not have years working from intern to fellow to attending... etc.
Steven is a gamer with the funds to hire a dev team and have them create the game of his dreams.
He is learning on the job - and still has a bunch of stuff to learn since he has never worked on a game that has actually released.
Lots of gamers have the notion that if it was good in x game it will be good in all games - maybe just with a couple tweaks suit to my playstyle better.
Which is why it's a good idea to always have an experienced Lead Game Designer on the team who as successfully released at least a couple of games. (And hopefully those games have remained popular for more than a couple years.)
People saying x is bad for my playstyle does not necessarily mean it is bad design for all playstyles.
But, it would be helpful if Steven would be more clear about the playstyles he is tragetting and the playstyles he's not targeting.
He is being 100% clear about who is the target audience, now more than ever, I honestly don't think he could be more clear than that, usually, developers don't even talk about it to not push people away.
The issue is people can not accept the reality about who is the target audience, and try to use quotes and clips from 6 years ago to disprove what the man is saying now about his own game, they also do all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to fit in.
He has said numerous times, that the game isn't for everyone (not that i think a game really can be). So yeah
I think i'll give the game a try, and if it's not for me (which i don't think), i'll quit. That is just how it is
I don't know that people are trying to use clips from 6 years ago to disporve what Steven is now saying.
People use clips from 6 years ago to prove that there have been signifcant changes. Since there are topics that state nothing has changed.
And people use clips from 6 years ago to demonstrate that some of the new quotes seem to conflict with previous quotes - in a manner that is confusing.
And, then, when people say - "Oh! If that is going to be the actual gameplay, I guess I'm not in the target audience!" -- the response is, "Well, you should have known that years ago! Now, you're suddenly spouting doom and gloom!"
As long as that software has a user driven economy, I wholeheartedly agree.
in this context, doctor = IS
Hospital could maybe = IS.
so we are saying something here then vaknar and others will tell the devs.
im hoping you get the point..
I have a friend with multiple medical issues. The treatment of these issues kind of overlap, so when one issue is being treated, many of the other issues needs to be accounted for.
Some of the issues are fairly common, and doctors kind of prescribe for them without much thought. However, this friend of mine often has to point out why a given remedy wont work for them.
So yes, some people, some times, do need to tell doctors how to treat them. It isnt common (I have no need to do it personally), but it does happen.
also, im sure when your friend tells a doctor that a specific medicine didnt help (he told the doctor his problem) the doctor found a solution using his expertise.
Yeah, of course the doctor did.
This is why you'll often find me happy to point out issues to developers, but seldom willing to offer up solutions to them.
When I am talking about how I'd like to see things, it is a discussion among players/poster. I dont want or expect any developer to pay attention to any of that - they should only use us to assist in identifying issues.
What people say is true, but what you're saying is true as well. It's obvious they are targeting guild leaders and hardcore pvpers, but it's not obvious whether or not they're going to put effort into making the game fun for a general audience even if those people end up having the most fun.