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Should most players simply avoid all processing artisan paths?

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Comments

  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Liniker wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    In reality, the biggest issue is that Intrepid is developing the game without taking that bulk perspective in to account first, developing the game for them, fully fleshing out that gameplay experience, and then adding to it for top end players.

    Basically, Intrepid are trying to build the roof before they build the foundation.

    So, what game development experience do you have?

    I read the shit you say like I'm listening to a drunk hillbilly at a bar sharing his opinion on politics or aliens, at least it's entertaining I will give you that.
    I have well over a decade of experience in software development, and multiple decades of product development in other fields. Games aren't such a unique product that the basics don't hold true.

    The problem for you is - as soon as you read that post, you knew immediately that I was right.

    manager != programmer && manager != designer

    This is the first mention of the term 'manager' on this page.

    Did you mean something else?

    he has stated before that he is a manager

    I'll save Noaani the trouble then...

    Assuming Noaani is a manager right now has nothing to do with those two things. I've been all three at the same time professionally, I'm sometimes all three now.

    So you can probably just drop this line of... whatever it is, and go back to finding a way to discredit the thing he actually said.

    well, he criticized Steven saying that Steven isn't a game developer because Steven hasn't designed a game or written code, so he doesn't have any experience developing games because he is in a managerial position. however, nooani experience in a managerial position, without writing code or designing counts as developing software? how does that make sense? those two things are both truth or both false, but can't have 1 be truth and 1 be false since they are the same thing.

    They can be separate things, is my point. Sometimes I'm a Project Manager, sometimes I'm a Developer, sometimes I'm an Engineer, sometimes I'm a Designer. So you're kinda assuming that Noaani hasn't written code or designed games because of something he said about something else.

    It'd be like if you said 'You don't know how to write game economy transaction code just because you're a stock market investor!' to me.

    I know how to do both things. That's why you do what Abarat does and ask 'have you done this thing that I will use as the metric for if you know what you are talking about or not?'

    Otherwise you'll end up arguing with Noaani pointlessly over definitions and no one wants that, right?

    not pointesly, definitions are important, specially objective definitions. people here often say "define this as that" and it isnt objective, tis only their subjective truth. so how can you expect to talk about somethign and analyze wether its right or wrong when people dont even know what is the concept they are talking about. as an example, go watch those clips of people asking the feminists what is a woman when they try to talk about women and then they freeze or cant define it xDDD thats literally whats been going on here this past month.

    also, i might be wrong, but from what nooani has said, he hasn't designed or built software, he has just supervised people who has without actually doing it himself.

    and yes, you can be a programmer, then become a manager and supervise other programmers, but at least you were a programmer first. it isnt the same as managing programmers without never being a programmer.

    read uncle bob book series and you will get what i mean :P

    Yes, I'm aware that the discourse type on the forums has shifted even more in that direction lately. Hopefully Vaknar and Roshen don't have to actually parse it all without some sort of tool.

    I'm just telling you that in this specific case, you're the one starting the mess. But at least we're at the point where Noaani theoretically could just say 'no I have designed/built software' and that would resolve your assert statement to False, right?

    its irrelevant to me if he has or hasnt. but from the things he says, it seems that he hasnt. my problem is, and this is a problem i have with many of the things being postd lately, is that people say this X thing should be like this or else its a bad design. people who never designed anything and cant define X. like ive said many times, its the equivalent of telling a doctor what medicine or treatment to give you, or telling a lawyer how to build your case, or a chef how to cook. you basically go to a doctor and tell him whats wrong, then you let him do his work.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Liniker wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    In reality, the biggest issue is that Intrepid is developing the game without taking that bulk perspective in to account first, developing the game for them, fully fleshing out that gameplay experience, and then adding to it for top end players.

    Basically, Intrepid are trying to build the roof before they build the foundation.

    So, what game development experience do you have?

    I read the shit you say like I'm listening to a drunk hillbilly at a bar sharing his opinion on politics or aliens, at least it's entertaining I will give you that.
    I have well over a decade of experience in software development, and multiple decades of product development in other fields. Games aren't such a unique product that the basics don't hold true.

    The problem for you is - as soon as you read that post, you knew immediately that I was right.

    manager != programmer && manager != designer

    This is the first mention of the term 'manager' on this page.

    Did you mean something else?

    he has stated before that he is a manager

    I'll save Noaani the trouble then...

    Assuming Noaani is a manager right now has nothing to do with those two things. I've been all three at the same time professionally, I'm sometimes all three now.

    So you can probably just drop this line of... whatever it is, and go back to finding a way to discredit the thing he actually said.

    well, he criticized Steven saying that Steven isn't a game developer because Steven hasn't designed a game or written code, so he doesn't have any experience developing games because he is in a managerial position. however, nooani experience in a managerial position, without writing code or designing counts as developing software? how does that make sense? those two things are both truth or both false, but can't have 1 be truth and 1 be false since they are the same thing.

    They can be separate things, is my point. Sometimes I'm a Project Manager, sometimes I'm a Developer, sometimes I'm an Engineer, sometimes I'm a Designer. So you're kinda assuming that Noaani hasn't written code or designed games because of something he said about something else.

    It'd be like if you said 'You don't know how to write game economy transaction code just because you're a stock market investor!' to me.

    I know how to do both things. That's why you do what Abarat does and ask 'have you done this thing that I will use as the metric for if you know what you are talking about or not?'

    Otherwise you'll end up arguing with Noaani pointlessly over definitions and no one wants that, right?

    not pointesly, definitions are important, specially objective definitions. people here often say "define this as that" and it isnt objective, tis only their subjective truth. so how can you expect to talk about somethign and analyze wether its right or wrong when people dont even know what is the concept they are talking about. as an example, go watch those clips of people asking the feminists what is a woman when they try to talk about women and then they freeze or cant define it xDDD thats literally whats been going on here this past month.

    also, i might be wrong, but from what nooani has said, he hasn't designed or built software, he has just supervised people who has without actually doing it himself.

    and yes, you can be a programmer, then become a manager and supervise other programmers, but at least you were a programmer first. it isnt the same as managing programmers without never being a programmer.

    read uncle bob book series and you will get what i mean :P

    Yes, I'm aware that the discourse type on the forums has shifted even more in that direction lately. Hopefully Vaknar and Roshen don't have to actually parse it all without some sort of tool.

    I'm just telling you that in this specific case, you're the one starting the mess. But at least we're at the point where Noaani theoretically could just say 'no I have designed/built software' and that would resolve your assert statement to False, right?

    its irrelevant to me if he has or hasnt. but from the things he says, it seems that he hasnt. my problem is, and this is a problem i have with many of the things being postd lately, is that people say this X thing should be like this or else its a bad design. people who never designed anything and cant define X. like ive said many times, its the equivalent of telling a doctor what medicine or treatment to give you, or telling a lawyer how to build your case, or a chef how to cook. you basically go to a doctor and tell him whats wrong, then you let him do his work.

    You're gonna get a long explanation (not from me) about why this isn't that situation, but have at it.

    I'll give you a shorter one though. This isn't that situation. Noaani could be right or wrong about this specific game, but it's not like the principle doesn't apply at all.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Liniker wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    In reality, the biggest issue is that Intrepid is developing the game without taking that bulk perspective in to account first, developing the game for them, fully fleshing out that gameplay experience, and then adding to it for top end players.

    Basically, Intrepid are trying to build the roof before they build the foundation.

    So, what game development experience do you have?

    I read the shit you say like I'm listening to a drunk hillbilly at a bar sharing his opinion on politics or aliens, at least it's entertaining I will give you that.
    I have well over a decade of experience in software development, and multiple decades of product development in other fields. Games aren't such a unique product that the basics don't hold true.

    The problem for you is - as soon as you read that post, you knew immediately that I was right.

    manager != programmer && manager != designer

    This is the first mention of the term 'manager' on this page.

    Did you mean something else?

    he has stated before that he is a manager

    I'll save Noaani the trouble then...

    Assuming Noaani is a manager right now has nothing to do with those two things. I've been all three at the same time professionally, I'm sometimes all three now.

    So you can probably just drop this line of... whatever it is, and go back to finding a way to discredit the thing he actually said.

    well, he criticized Steven saying that Steven isn't a game developer because Steven hasn't designed a game or written code, so he doesn't have any experience developing games because he is in a managerial position. however, nooani experience in a managerial position, without writing code or designing counts as developing software? how does that make sense? those two things are both truth or both false, but can't have 1 be truth and 1 be false since they are the same thing.

    They can be separate things, is my point. Sometimes I'm a Project Manager, sometimes I'm a Developer, sometimes I'm an Engineer, sometimes I'm a Designer. So you're kinda assuming that Noaani hasn't written code or designed games because of something he said about something else.

    It'd be like if you said 'You don't know how to write game economy transaction code just because you're a stock market investor!' to me.

    I know how to do both things. That's why you do what Abarat does and ask 'have you done this thing that I will use as the metric for if you know what you are talking about or not?'

    Otherwise you'll end up arguing with Noaani pointlessly over definitions and no one wants that, right?

    not pointesly, definitions are important, specially objective definitions. people here often say "define this as that" and it isnt objective, tis only their subjective truth. so how can you expect to talk about somethign and analyze wether its right or wrong when people dont even know what is the concept they are talking about. as an example, go watch those clips of people asking the feminists what is a woman when they try to talk about women and then they freeze or cant define it xDDD thats literally whats been going on here this past month.

    also, i might be wrong, but from what nooani has said, he hasn't designed or built software, he has just supervised people who has without actually doing it himself.

    and yes, you can be a programmer, then become a manager and supervise other programmers, but at least you were a programmer first. it isnt the same as managing programmers without never being a programmer.

    read uncle bob book series and you will get what i mean :P

    Yes, I'm aware that the discourse type on the forums has shifted even more in that direction lately. Hopefully Vaknar and Roshen don't have to actually parse it all without some sort of tool.

    I'm just telling you that in this specific case, you're the one starting the mess. But at least we're at the point where Noaani theoretically could just say 'no I have designed/built software' and that would resolve your assert statement to False, right?

    its irrelevant to me if he has or hasnt. but from the things he says, it seems that he hasnt. my problem is, and this is a problem i have with many of the things being postd lately, is that people say this X thing should be like this or else its a bad design. people who never designed anything and cant define X. like ive said many times, its the equivalent of telling a doctor what medicine or treatment to give you, or telling a lawyer how to build your case, or a chef how to cook. you basically go to a doctor and tell him whats wrong, then you let him do his work.

    You're gonna get a long explanation (not from me) about why this isn't that situation, but have at it.

    I'll give you a shorter one though. This isn't that situation. Noaani could be right or wrong about this specific game, but it's not like the principle doesn't apply at all.

    well, his principle is: it was good in eq so it has to be like that in every game

    ............
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Liniker wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    In reality, the biggest issue is that Intrepid is developing the game without taking that bulk perspective in to account first, developing the game for them, fully fleshing out that gameplay experience, and then adding to it for top end players.

    Basically, Intrepid are trying to build the roof before they build the foundation.

    So, what game development experience do you have?

    I read the shit you say like I'm listening to a drunk hillbilly at a bar sharing his opinion on politics or aliens, at least it's entertaining I will give you that.
    I have well over a decade of experience in software development, and multiple decades of product development in other fields. Games aren't such a unique product that the basics don't hold true.

    The problem for you is - as soon as you read that post, you knew immediately that I was right.

    manager != programmer && manager != designer

    This is the first mention of the term 'manager' on this page.

    Did you mean something else?

    he has stated before that he is a manager

    I'll save Noaani the trouble then...

    Assuming Noaani is a manager right now has nothing to do with those two things. I've been all three at the same time professionally, I'm sometimes all three now.

    So you can probably just drop this line of... whatever it is, and go back to finding a way to discredit the thing he actually said.

    well, he criticized Steven saying that Steven isn't a game developer because Steven hasn't designed a game or written code, so he doesn't have any experience developing games because he is in a managerial position. however, nooani experience in a managerial position, without writing code or designing counts as developing software? how does that make sense? those two things are both truth or both false, but can't have 1 be truth and 1 be false since they are the same thing.

    They can be separate things, is my point. Sometimes I'm a Project Manager, sometimes I'm a Developer, sometimes I'm an Engineer, sometimes I'm a Designer. So you're kinda assuming that Noaani hasn't written code or designed games because of something he said about something else.

    It'd be like if you said 'You don't know how to write game economy transaction code just because you're a stock market investor!' to me.

    I know how to do both things. That's why you do what Abarat does and ask 'have you done this thing that I will use as the metric for if you know what you are talking about or not?'

    Otherwise you'll end up arguing with Noaani pointlessly over definitions and no one wants that, right?

    not pointesly, definitions are important, specially objective definitions. people here often say "define this as that" and it isnt objective, tis only their subjective truth. so how can you expect to talk about somethign and analyze wether its right or wrong when people dont even know what is the concept they are talking about. as an example, go watch those clips of people asking the feminists what is a woman when they try to talk about women and then they freeze or cant define it xDDD thats literally whats been going on here this past month.

    also, i might be wrong, but from what nooani has said, he hasn't designed or built software, he has just supervised people who has without actually doing it himself.

    and yes, you can be a programmer, then become a manager and supervise other programmers, but at least you were a programmer first. it isnt the same as managing programmers without never being a programmer.

    read uncle bob book series and you will get what i mean :P

    Yes, I'm aware that the discourse type on the forums has shifted even more in that direction lately. Hopefully Vaknar and Roshen don't have to actually parse it all without some sort of tool.

    I'm just telling you that in this specific case, you're the one starting the mess. But at least we're at the point where Noaani theoretically could just say 'no I have designed/built software' and that would resolve your assert statement to False, right?

    its irrelevant to me if he has or hasnt. but from the things he says, it seems that he hasnt. my problem is, and this is a problem i have with many of the things being postd lately, is that people say this X thing should be like this or else its a bad design. people who never designed anything and cant define X. like ive said many times, its the equivalent of telling a doctor what medicine or treatment to give you, or telling a lawyer how to build your case, or a chef how to cook. you basically go to a doctor and tell him whats wrong, then you let him do his work.

    You're gonna get a long explanation (not from me) about why this isn't that situation, but have at it.

    I'll give you a shorter one though. This isn't that situation. Noaani could be right or wrong about this specific game, but it's not like the principle doesn't apply at all.

    well, his principle is: it was good in eq so it has to be like that in every game

    ............

    You're not even trying now are you, lol?

    Fortunately for you I think Noaani actually really enjoys this sort of thing.

    This one might be more of a Foxtrot...
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Liniker wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    In reality, the biggest issue is that Intrepid is developing the game without taking that bulk perspective in to account first, developing the game for them, fully fleshing out that gameplay experience, and then adding to it for top end players.

    Basically, Intrepid are trying to build the roof before they build the foundation.

    So, what game development experience do you have?

    I read the shit you say like I'm listening to a drunk hillbilly at a bar sharing his opinion on politics or aliens, at least it's entertaining I will give you that.
    I have well over a decade of experience in software development, and multiple decades of product development in other fields. Games aren't such a unique product that the basics don't hold true.

    The problem for you is - as soon as you read that post, you knew immediately that I was right.

    manager != programmer && manager != designer

    This is the first mention of the term 'manager' on this page.

    Did you mean something else?

    he has stated before that he is a manager

    I'll save Noaani the trouble then...

    Assuming Noaani is a manager right now has nothing to do with those two things. I've been all three at the same time professionally, I'm sometimes all three now.

    So you can probably just drop this line of... whatever it is, and go back to finding a way to discredit the thing he actually said.

    well, he criticized Steven saying that Steven isn't a game developer because Steven hasn't designed a game or written code, so he doesn't have any experience developing games because he is in a managerial position. however, nooani experience in a managerial position, without writing code or designing counts as developing software? how does that make sense? those two things are both truth or both false, but can't have 1 be truth and 1 be false since they are the same thing.

    They can be separate things, is my point. Sometimes I'm a Project Manager, sometimes I'm a Developer, sometimes I'm an Engineer, sometimes I'm a Designer. So you're kinda assuming that Noaani hasn't written code or designed games because of something he said about something else.

    It'd be like if you said 'You don't know how to write game economy transaction code just because you're a stock market investor!' to me.

    I know how to do both things. That's why you do what Abarat does and ask 'have you done this thing that I will use as the metric for if you know what you are talking about or not?'

    Otherwise you'll end up arguing with Noaani pointlessly over definitions and no one wants that, right?

    not pointesly, definitions are important, specially objective definitions. people here often say "define this as that" and it isnt objective, tis only their subjective truth. so how can you expect to talk about somethign and analyze wether its right or wrong when people dont even know what is the concept they are talking about. as an example, go watch those clips of people asking the feminists what is a woman when they try to talk about women and then they freeze or cant define it xDDD thats literally whats been going on here this past month.

    also, i might be wrong, but from what nooani has said, he hasn't designed or built software, he has just supervised people who has without actually doing it himself.

    and yes, you can be a programmer, then become a manager and supervise other programmers, but at least you were a programmer first. it isnt the same as managing programmers without never being a programmer.

    read uncle bob book series and you will get what i mean :P

    Yes, I'm aware that the discourse type on the forums has shifted even more in that direction lately. Hopefully Vaknar and Roshen don't have to actually parse it all without some sort of tool.

    I'm just telling you that in this specific case, you're the one starting the mess. But at least we're at the point where Noaani theoretically could just say 'no I have designed/built software' and that would resolve your assert statement to False, right?

    its irrelevant to me if he has or hasnt. but from the things he says, it seems that he hasnt. my problem is, and this is a problem i have with many of the things being postd lately, is that people say this X thing should be like this or else its a bad design. people who never designed anything and cant define X. like ive said many times, its the equivalent of telling a doctor what medicine or treatment to give you, or telling a lawyer how to build your case, or a chef how to cook. you basically go to a doctor and tell him whats wrong, then you let him do his work.

    You're gonna get a long explanation (not from me) about why this isn't that situation, but have at it.

    I'll give you a shorter one though. This isn't that situation. Noaani could be right or wrong about this specific game, but it's not like the principle doesn't apply at all.

    well, his principle is: it was good in eq so it has to be like that in every game

    ............

    You're not even trying now are you, lol?

    Fortunately for you I think Noaani actually really enjoys this sort of thing.

    This one might be more of a Foxtrot...

    he is right sometimes, ill give him that. but basically every time he is wrong, which is pretty often, he cant see it and his argument is what i said in my previous post, or somethign along the lines "in this other game i played it was X therefore it must be X in aoc or Y will happen, when he hasnt even played the main game aoc is based off.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    ill put it in terms familia rto you.

    imagine i go to final fantasy forums and say hey you MUST do open world pvp, because it was like that in l2 and it will be like this in aoc, otherwise the game will fail, it wont have a futre soon, this X thing will happen etc etc etc. im sure no one will tolerate that and tell me im being ridiculous. so why do we have to tolerate the same behavior here?
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    ill put it in terms familia rto you.

    imagine i go to final fantasy forums and say hey you MUST do open world pvp, because it was like that in l2 and it will be like this in aoc, otherwise the game will fail, it wont have a futre soon, this X thing will happen etc etc etc. im sure no one will tolerate that and tell me im being ridiculous. so why do we have to tolerate the same behavior here?

    If you went to the Final Fantasy forums for some feature that they implied they were going to add and wanted to tell them how they should add it based on your experience, I'm sure there would be people who would tell you that you are being ridiculous.

    I think those people would be wrong to tell you that.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    ill put it in terms familia rto you.

    imagine i go to final fantasy forums and say hey you MUST do open world pvp, because it was like that in l2 and it will be like this in aoc, otherwise the game will fail, it wont have a futre soon, this X thing will happen etc etc etc. im sure no one will tolerate that and tell me im being ridiculous. so why do we have to tolerate the same behavior here?

    If you went to the Final Fantasy forums for some feature that they implied they were going to add and wanted to tell them how they should add it based on your experience, I'm sure there would be people who would tell you that you are being ridiculous.

    I think those people would be wrong to tell you that.

    do you tell a doctor how to treat you?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    @Depraved

    Not sure why me as a manager has any impact on this. However, as a manager of people that possess and make use of skills that I do not have, my job isn't to tell them what to do. My job is to inform them what we need from them, ask them what resources they need to be able to deliver that, and then find them those resources. Essentially, my job is to enable my team to do their job. I wouldn't ever even consider getting in to the details about what they do or do not test - they are grown ass people, they can make that decision themselves.

    Other than the above, the only thing I do in my capacity of managing the people that possess these skills I do not possess, is that I sit down with them once they have enough progress to make this viable, and we go over the user experience of everything we have. There is an expectation that there will be several things that need to be changed after this sit down, and I have conditioned my team to expect and understand this. To me, if they have their heads deep inside the engine of what ever it is we are doing, I want them to focus on that engine, not on whether or not they accidently cut the wire to the window demister. We will discover the demister isn't working in our sit down later on, and can simply deal with it then (this is an analogy, I do not work in the automobile industry).

    You are indeed correct that I do not build the software my team builds. I possess some of the skills, but not many. My job, however, other than enabling my team, is spotting design flaws (which, you may note, is what I have claimed to have done here).

    Incidently, from the thread where I said Steven isn't a game developer, I also don't consider myself a software developer - I simply manage a team of software developers (among other people).

    As to your comments about "Uncle Bob", he is more concerned with code than actual product design. I am not at all commenting on how Intrepid are building the game from a code perspective - I have no inherent reason to even know. I am looking at it (and criticizing it) from a product design perspective - which is something Uncle Bob simply doesn't concern himself with.

    To your point about going to FFXIV forums and saying they need open world PvP, the thing I think you are missing is that I am pointing out issues here - I am not providing solutions.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    @George_Black

    It really is ok that you have no idea what is being talked about here.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    @Abarat

    If you wish to say that we do not know nearly enough about the game in its totality to state anything as fact, then by that logic you must agree that there is a chance I am right about my assertion. Using your own words, we do not know enough to state that what I said isn't true.

    Only Intrepid know that. However, as with my analogy above, it is quite possible that they have had their head in the engine for so long they didn't notice that they cut the demister wire.

    You seem to have fairly blind faith in Intrepid (not saying that is a bad thing). If this is the case, you have no reason to really say too much about my assumption earlier in this thread - but let me explain why.

    If we work on the assumption that Intrepid are deserving of that faith of yours, they will look at my comment, and either decide there is merit to it, or there is not merit to it. If they decide there is not merit to it, then that is the end of it - no worries at all to you.

    On the other hand, if they decide there is merit to it (which, since we don't know enough about the game in its totality to state this couldn't be the case), then what that means is that Intrepid may look in to it sooner.

    Now, one thing I think most people would agree with in regards to New World is that a part of the issues the game had at launch was that they made fairly major changes to the game quite late in development. It wasn't necessarily the changes themselves, but rather how late they were made.

    Assuming you believe the above about New World to be even partially true, that means the sooner issues that may require changes in design come to light, the better.

    So, either Intrepid disagree with me and so no issue to you, or they agree with me and all I did was shed light on the issue sooner - which is good for everyone.

    I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say "you're welcome".
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    @Depraved

    Not sure why me as a manager has any impact on this. However, as a manager of people that possess and make use of skills that I do not have, my job isn't to tell them what to do. My job is to inform them what we need from them, ask them what resources they need to be able to deliver that, and then find them those resources. Essentially, my job is to enable my team to do their job. I wouldn't ever even consider getting in to the details about what they do or do not test - they are grown ass people, they can make that decision themselves.

    Other than the above, the only thing I do in my capacity of managing the people that possess these skills I do not possess, is that I sit down with them once they have enough progress to make this viable, and we go over the user experience of everything we have. There is an expectation that there will be several things that need to be changed after this sit down, and I have conditioned my team to expect and understand this. To me, if they have their heads deep inside the engine of what ever it is we are doing, I want them to focus on that engine, not on whether or not they accidently cut the wire to the window demister. We will discover the demister isn't working in our sit down later on, and can simply deal with it then (this is an analogy, I do not work in the automobile industry).

    You are indeed correct that I do not build the software my team builds. I possess some of the skills, but not many. My job, however, other than enabling my team, is spotting design flaws (which, you may note, is what I have claimed to have done here).

    Incidently, from the thread where I said Steven isn't a game developer, I also don't consider myself a software developer - I simply manage a team of software developers (among other people).

    As to your comments about "Uncle Bob", he is more concerned with code than actual product design. I am not at all commenting on how Intrepid are building the game from a code perspective - I have no inherent reason to even know. I am looking at it (and criticizing it) from a product design perspective - which is something Uncle Bob simply doesn't concern himself with.

    To your point about going to FFXIV forums and saying they need open world PvP, the thing I think you are missing is that I am pointing out issues here - I am not providing solutions.

    well, that seems very reasonable. cant argue with you there. however, let me point out 1 thing. at your job, you are able to point out design flaws because you know all the aspects of the products and how different parts interact with others. no one in aoc knows how the things we've seen in isolation interact with all the other things we have seen and we havent seen.

    im not saying there might not be any flaws, but people here claim that if "this thing is this way, it will fail and it has to be this other way" when they havent seen all the other aspects of the product.

    also, yes you are right about uncle bob, but he also talks about a little about managerial stuff and how it affects the programmers
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    @Depraved

    Not sure why me as a manager has any impact on this. However, as a manager of people that possess and make use of skills that I do not have, my job isn't to tell them what to do. My job is to inform them what we need from them, ask them what resources they need to be able to deliver that, and then find them those resources. Essentially, my job is to enable my team to do their job. I wouldn't ever even consider getting in to the details about what they do or do not test - they are grown ass people, they can make that decision themselves.

    Other than the above, the only thing I do in my capacity of managing the people that possess these skills I do not possess, is that I sit down with them once they have enough progress to make this viable, and we go over the user experience of everything we have. There is an expectation that there will be several things that need to be changed after this sit down, and I have conditioned my team to expect and understand this. To me, if they have their heads deep inside the engine of what ever it is we are doing, I want them to focus on that engine, not on whether or not they accidently cut the wire to the window demister. We will discover the demister isn't working in our sit down later on, and can simply deal with it then (this is an analogy, I do not work in the automobile industry).

    You are indeed correct that I do not build the software my team builds. I possess some of the skills, but not many. My job, however, other than enabling my team, is spotting design flaws (which, you may note, is what I have claimed to have done here).

    Incidently, from the thread where I said Steven isn't a game developer, I also don't consider myself a software developer - I simply manage a team of software developers (among other people).

    As to your comments about "Uncle Bob", he is more concerned with code than actual product design. I am not at all commenting on how Intrepid are building the game from a code perspective - I have no inherent reason to even know. I am looking at it (and criticizing it) from a product design perspective - which is something Uncle Bob simply doesn't concern himself with.

    To your point about going to FFXIV forums and saying they need open world PvP, the thing I think you are missing is that I am pointing out issues here - I am not providing solutions.

    well, that seems very reasonable. cant argue with you there. however, let me point out 1 thing. at your job, you are able to point out design flaws because you know all the aspects of the products and how different parts interact with others. no one in aoc knows how the things we've seen in isolation interact with all the other things we have seen and we havent seen.

    im not saying there might not be any flaws, but people here claim that if "this thing is this way, it will fail and it has to be this other way" when they havent seen all the other aspects of the product.

    also, yes you are right about uncle bob, but he also talks about a little about managerial stuff and how it affects the programmers
    You are right in that at work I have the full picture in front of me. However, that doesnt mean I cant still recognize something I deal with weekly just from seeing a part of it.

    With that said, if I am wrong about how I see things, Intrepid will know. As such, they will ignore me, and that is fine.

    However, if I am right, better it be said than not be said. In fact, better be said early rather than late.

    I know from first hand experience how situations like what I think is the case can happen. If I am right, I dont consider that a negative thing for Intrepid, I dont think any less of them for getting in to that situation. To me, it's a situation that is bound to happen at some point in development of almost any product. It almost needs to happen to an extent - at least on a personal level.

    The key thing though - again only if I am right - is how Intrepid deal with it.

    I think the thing for some people to remember is that if I'm wrong (or if Steven thinks I am wrong), nothing at all will change. If I am right though, any changes that happen would have eventually had to have happened, but now they have more time to do a better job with them.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Usual thing I see where a person can't understand going with "absolutes " and does not have a open mind or consideration to other peoples points.

    It is as easy as accepting other possibilities and not framing things as this and no matter what and nothing else. Shortsighted thoughts don't exactly speak of a strong manager. Viewing all things as negative and not from all angles is a sign of weakness if you are trying to understand all potential issues and strengths.
  • Kionashi wrote: »
    I mean if freeholds are an exclusive feature that only will be accessible for a tiny percentage of the player base, I think it would be pointless for a casual player or a player who simply has little game time to even attempt to begin on the processing artisan paths at all.... I mean why even bother if you are going to hit a dead end eventually? Is not like crafting because if you need T-5 ingredients you can simply save up money to eventually buy it, or organizing with a group to attempt the World boss that drops that item...that's something everyone can do...of course hardcore players would have it easier but a casual players with time a patience will get there eventually too.

    But again because the Freeholds are such an exclusive commodity is fair to assume all freeholds will be owned at all times by the sweatiest nerds on the server who can afford to play 12h a day which allows them to outbid anyone who dares to attempt to get a freehold, basically keeping everybody else literally unable to access T5-6 processing stations.

    No amount of time or dedication will allow a gamer dad with 5 wives and 10 dogs to outbid someone who simply has more play time than him.

    So considering the system as we can see it right now, if you know you only will be able to play on weekends, or a couple hours per day, is there even a point on starting on the processing artisan paths at all?

    I mean sure, you can get T1 to T4 items which is nice, but eventually you will hit max level and will need T5, T6 gear to play endgame content so being able to make those low tier items wont get you any further on your artisan path. Not to mention all those feelbad moments of "hey I got this ultra rare drop from this endgame boss...but I don't have a freehold so I can't make anything with it even though I decided to dedicate myself to an artisan path that uses this kind of items, I guess I'll sell it or whatever". At this point you are no longer an artisan because the content you will do won't give you anything to progress on your artisan path.

    But yeah, unless something changes I think the best strategy for most players would be to avoid all processing paths and focus on crafting/ gathering since those would allow you to reach the endgame without being limited for not being part of the 10% of the population that can get a freehold.

    It's difficult to have a strong opinion without more information, but I think a casual player could still gain access to the highest-level processing stations with enough dedication over time and patience. Most sweat-lords won't want to spend all day processing, there are avenues through which someone who doesn't own one can still gain access to the stations, people may (almost certainly will) sell access but no one will purchase it at unprofitable prices so there should be some margin on purchased usage even if it's nowhere near the level of owned/free usage.

    In short, if a casual REALLY wants to be a processor, I think they'll be able to. They just may be more like tenants/workers rather than owners, reminiscent of real life.

    I personally don't think that's ideal given the appeal of processing activities to casuals (likely above that of the sweaty), but I also don't think it'll be impossible.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Depraved wrote: »
    do you tell a doctor how to treat you?
    I mean... again...
    Steven is not the equivalent of a doctor.
    He does not have any kind of university degree in game design.
    He does not have years working from intern to fellow to attending... etc.
    Steven is a gamer with the funds to hire a dev team and have them create the game of his dreams.
    He is learning on the job - and still has a bunch of stuff to learn since he has never worked on a game that has actually released.

    Lots of gamers have the notion that if it was good in x game it will be good in all games - maybe just with a couple tweaks suit to my playstyle better.
    Which is why it's a good idea to always have an experienced Lead Game Designer on the team who as successfully released at least a couple of games. (And hopefully those games have remained popular for more than a couple years.)

    People saying x is bad for my playstyle does not necessarily mean it is bad design for all playstyles.
    But, it would be helpful if Steven would be more clear about the playstyles he is tragetting and the playstyles he's not targeting.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Dygz wrote: »
    But, it would be helpful if Steven would be more clear about the playstyles he is tragetting and the playstyles he's not targeting.

    He is being 100% clear about who is the target audience, now more than ever, I honestly don't think he could be more clear than that, usually, developers don't even talk about it to not push people away.

    The issue is people can not accept the reality about who is the target audience, and try to use quotes and clips from 6 years ago to disprove what the man is saying now about his own game, they also do all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to fit in.
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  • Liniker wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    But, it would be helpful if Steven would be more clear about the playstyles he is tragetting and the playstyles he's not targeting.

    He is being 100% clear about who is the target audience, now more than ever, I honestly don't think he could be more clear than that, usually, developers don't even talk about it to not push people away.

    The issue is people can not accept the reality about who is the target audience, and try to use quotes and clips from 6 years ago to disprove what the man is saying now about his own game, they also do all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to fit in.

    He has said numerous times, that the game isn't for everyone (not that i think a game really can be). So yeah

    I think i'll give the game a try, and if it's not for me (which i don't think), i'll quit. That is just how it is
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Liniker wrote: »
    He is being 100% clear about who is the target audience, now more than ever, I honestly don't think he could be more clear than that, usually, developers don't even talk about it to not push people away.
    He is being somewhat more clear now than he was 1.5 years ago. Not even close to 100% clear.


    Liniker wrote: »
    The issue is people can not accept the reality about who is the target audience, and try to use quotes and clips from 6 years ago to disprove what the man is saying now about his own game, they also do all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to fit in.
    I don't know that people are trying to use clips from 6 years ago to disporve what Steven is now saying.
    People use clips from 6 years ago to prove that there have been signifcant changes. Since there are topics that state nothing has changed.
    And people use clips from 6 years ago to demonstrate that some of the new quotes seem to conflict with previous quotes - in a manner that is confusing.

    And, then, when people say - "Oh! If that is going to be the actual gameplay, I guess I'm not in the target audience!" -- the response is, "Well, you should have known that years ago! Now, you're suddenly spouting doom and gloom!"
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    It's difficult to have a strong opinion without more information, but I think a casual player could still gain access to the highest-level processing stations with enough dedication over time and patience. Most sweat-lords won't want to spend all day processing, there are avenues through which someone who doesn't own one can still gain access to the stations, people may (almost certainly will) sell access but no one will purchase it at unprofitable prices so there should be some margin on purchased usage even if it's nowhere near the level of owned/free usage.

    In short, if a casual REALLY wants to be a processor, I think they'll be able to. They just may be more like tenants/workers rather than owners, reminiscent of real life.

    I personally don't think that's ideal given the appeal of processing activities to casuals (likely above that of the sweaty), but I also don't think it'll be impossible.
    Yep. I think we will have to test it.
  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Azherae wrote: »

    I'm just telling you that in this specific case, you're the one starting the mess. But at least we're at the point where Noaani theoretically could just say 'no I have designed/built software' and that would resolve your assert statement to False, right?

    As long as that software has a user driven economy, I wholeheartedly agree.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    do you tell a doctor how to treat you?
    I mean... again...
    Steven is not the equivalent of a doctor.
    He does not have any kind of university degree in game design.
    He does not have years working from intern to fellow to attending... etc.
    Steven is a gamer with the funds to hire a dev team and have them create the game of his dreams.
    He is learning on the job - and still has a bunch of stuff to learn since he has never worked on a game that has actually released.

    Lots of gamers have the notion that if it was good in x game it will be good in all games - maybe just with a couple tweaks suit to my playstyle better.
    Which is why it's a good idea to always have an experienced Lead Game Designer on the team who as successfully released at least a couple of games. (And hopefully those games have remained popular for more than a couple years.)

    People saying x is bad for my playstyle does not necessarily mean it is bad design for all playstyles.
    But, it would be helpful if Steven would be more clear about the playstyles he is tragetting and the playstyles he's not targeting.

    in this context, doctor = IS
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Doctor cannot really = IS.
    Hospital could maybe = IS.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    doctors consult with other doctors, its pretty common (:
    so we are saying something here then vaknar and others will tell the devs.

    im hoping you get the point..
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    In relation to the whole "would you tell a doctor how to treat you" thing - the answer for some people very much is "yes".

    I have a friend with multiple medical issues. The treatment of these issues kind of overlap, so when one issue is being treated, many of the other issues needs to be accounted for.

    Some of the issues are fairly common, and doctors kind of prescribe for them without much thought. However, this friend of mine often has to point out why a given remedy wont work for them.

    So yes, some people, some times, do need to tell doctors how to treat them. It isnt common (I have no need to do it personally), but it does happen.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    telling the doctor how a medicine they have already used didn't help them is not the same as telling them how to treat you. By telling them how to treat you is telling the doctor, ok now you have to give me 10ml of this medicine twice a day, or you need to make n incision here..etc.

    also, im sure when your friend tells a doctor that a specific medicine didnt help (he told the doctor his problem) the doctor found a solution using his expertise.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    telling the doctor how a medicine they have already used didn't help them is not the same as telling them how to treat you. By telling them how to treat you is telling the doctor, ok now you have to give me 10ml of this medicine twice a day, or you need to make n incision here..etc.

    also, im sure when your friend tells a doctor that a specific medicine didnt help (he told the doctor his problem) the doctor found a solution using his expertise.

    Yeah, of course the doctor did.

    This is why you'll often find me happy to point out issues to developers, but seldom willing to offer up solutions to them.

    When I am talking about how I'd like to see things, it is a discussion among players/poster. I dont want or expect any developer to pay attention to any of that - they should only use us to assist in identifying issues.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    do you tell a doctor how to treat you?


    People saying x is bad for my playstyle does not necessarily mean it is bad design for all playstyles.
    But, it would be helpful if Steven would be more clear about the playstyles he is tragetting and the playstyles he's not targeting.

    What people say is true, but what you're saying is true as well. It's obvious they are targeting guild leaders and hardcore pvpers, but it's not obvious whether or not they're going to put effort into making the game fun for a general audience even if those people end up having the most fun.
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