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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Chatting isn't lazy nor does it guarantee anything that is up to player skill with communication, politics or manipulation to make things happen. Talking in global chat doesn't make it happen it is up to you. It is a ton of work dealing with all the people if anything.
Also bulletin boards are going to be a meme, it is there for some casual players to have some way of finding groups without going full on with automatic groups. Needing to message someone or check a mail box or however they do it will be a hassle making things difficult for no reason because the person isn't online or just doesn't care to respond.
Meaning people will simply rely on discords.
Mercs should build their own connections with all guilds they want to work with. You want to be a successful merc? Work your networking.
Strong guilds will be strong. Yes.
Again, I see no damn reason for a global chat. People should simply do better and git gud. And all the casuals should rely on their immediate surrounding, rather than some rando who'll never directly help them.
So, you're out there picking flowers for alchemy. The main aggressor alliance turns up in your locality. You have no awareness, no warning, no knowledge three nodes have already been destroyed. You raise the alarm after your death in the local node chat. No matter. The alliance already knows you only have Node Chat and a fourth Node is about to be destroyed. After all, in local chats server reputation can be hidden.
It's lazier and easier than going to another location and finding the right people at the right time.
A casual player who probably doesn't even know which discord to open will somehow have enough gameplay time to wait for a group that's doing absolutely different content 20 minutes away from him? And even if he gets there the party might've already found something who's closer too.
Global chat won't help with grouping, because the world is damn huge and people don't have endless time to wait for some rando from god knows where. Discords would only help if you plan ahead, which is the same as having a bulletin board that says "our primetime is this period in this rough location, PM this guy if you wanna join".
Just talking about random shit can be done in any other chat in the game.
How exactly are "nodes destroyed" in this context? What's the size of that alliance that they could move invisibly through several nodes w/o anyone seeing them, while also "destroying" said nodes?
Also, who am I in this situation? Am I a random casual? Am I a member of a casual guild? Am I a member of a semi-good guild, but just waiting for my party to come online?
And along those questions, what exactly do you expect anyone to do here, if this huge aggressor alliance is able to destroy several nodes at a seemingly moment's notice w/o any previous indication about their actions.
I feel like I'm missing the bigger picture you're imagining in your head.
Also also, again, how exactly is global chat supposed to help with this situation?
What I'll say is that the Yokai Theater interview indicates a potential pivot towards a thing I was hoping wouldn't be the case.
I was hoping that trade agreements and crafting materials would be the main reasons for Caravan movement, which would then mean that players on both ends have a good reason to want the caravan to arrive.
It seems that it may be shifting towards Certificates in Caravans being one of the primary Gold Faucets, which, for me, lends a lot of weight to Neurath's point. I would have argued before that the atmosphere and 'feel' of the game shouldn't match what Neurath described.
Now, I would entirely support Neurath's presented argument.
Gotta ship them potatoes from the potato orchard.
If that's the case then I see that point. I'm not yet sure if it is in fact moving towards that, but even if it is, I still fail to see how a global chat would help with this. Just provide a broader net for the "can someone help me bring these there" scream? If that's the only thing, then yeah I don't think I'd change my mind on this topic, for obvious to you reasons.
It goes deeper, I think.
If the Destination Node has a reason to defend an incoming caravan driven by 'randoms', then I don't agree with the point being made that we as players need to be able to talk to more people outside our own node vicinity. At least, not for the game overall to be enjoyable.
If the Destination Node normally has no real reason to do anything other than 'deploy hostiles to take the benefits' when 'randoms' are bringing Certs in, then I can see the game being much less fun without being able to form a network.
Basically, in my very biased opinion, Certs change the game's very nature from a 'slightly political sim' to just an overlay on a strategy game.
Politics 'requires' limited information to be fun. Strategy games 'require' more information to be fun for people who don't share your particular mindsets (because strategizing against unknown hostiles is either guessing or attempting to always win by superior firepower).
At the very least, I think that if one isn't super 'charitable' (I feel like I was doing this before), taking everything else we know about Steven's design philosophies into account, Neurath has the stronger point.
An alliance has no number limit at the moment. I believe that's because of Node Alliances - in my mind, a Guild Alliance can have a maximum of 1,200 people if 4 300 member guilds ally. Though, Mega Guilds can circumvent that but we won't focus on Mega Guilds right now.
The first thing the aggressor alliance will do is contest the local resources. Then they will use those resources and others to make a Siege Scroll. The Siege will be declared and the Node will be under lockdown until the siege can be remedied. The aggressor alliance has been patient and has the best gear on the server because it can lock down locations without much hassle in off peak hours.
Other alliances have fought against the aggressor alliance but no unified front can exist because the aggressor guild focusses on Node Sieges and not Castle Sieges. Unfortunately, Castles aren't part of a Node's ZOI and therefore isn't able to use the Node Chat. The aggressor alliance wins most guild wars because the guild wars can only be fought in peak times, the rest of the time the aggressor alliance contests the raids.
Alliances and Guilds do fight to maintain control of the raids but the aggressor guild already has the momentum from being aggressors and the local raids they performed before the rampage started. The strongest guild in the aggressor alliance declares guild wars before guild wars can be declared on the aggressor alliance. Thus, the aggressor alliance can tie the best defending guilds up in a guild war.
There is no bar on a guild in a guild war partaking in a siege though. This means the strongest guilds will be in the siege. However, the aggressor alliance fields the best PvP Combatants it can muster for the sieges. It chooses targets perceived to be weak and vulnerable. If a guild can defeat the best guild in the aggressor alliance the defending guild prevents the aggressor alliance from advancing on the defending guild's node.
Defending guilds aren't aware of all the guild wars initiated by the aggressor alliance. By the time a guild knows of the aggressor alliance's aggression the guild war is already initiated. The aggressor alliance is based on both continents and choose targets on opposite sides of the world. News travels slow because of the node chats and no general chat. No one is certain of the rumours but people are delving deep into the information.
Unfortunately, refugees haven't travelled to the opposite continent before the aggressor alliance and the cycle continues until enough guilds understand the issues and unite against the aggressor alliance. The aggressor alliance learns who is allied with whom and deploys tactics to separate the opposition alliances. The opposition alliances can only work on a 1:1 basis except in local nodes which are targeted by the aggressor alliance. However, with a general (global) chat, multiple alliances can raise alarms, make a bigger alliance and fight against the aggressor alliance before the aggressor alliance can choose the battles.
For example, whilst the aggressor alliance declares a siege on Node A, a second alliance not defending node A can declare a siege on the aggressor alliances node. Something that couldn't be risked when the defending alliances must defend Node A against the aggressor guild. A third alliance even declares a siege against the aggressor alliance castles. The aggressor alliance is brought down until another aggressor alliance takes the first aggressor alliance's place.
There's probably more nuance but I'm supposed to be writing my novels and not an essay on PvP lol. Some of my information might be outdated but I'm sure Azherae can update any pitfalls.
Certs turn into "commodities" (whatever they are) during transfer between nodes, so I feel like the best way to promote destination node defenses would be to link those "commodities" to "node commodities" (the damn silly part) and mayoral buy orders. The drivers talk to the mayor, ask him for protection, he puts out a "buy order" that requires people to sign up as defenders of that caravan and rewards them with node currency, while the mayor gets his commodities.
This is obviously abusable, but no more than literally that entire fucking system, but it is what it is. But I do think that this kind of thing is a possible solution for your particular concern.
Do you think Steven would not go for this or do you have a deeper concern?
Your entire argument is built on the supposition that declaring guild wars and node sieges are a quick thing and that guilds on the server would never even know each other or have communication channels within the game.
I simply disagree with that supposition, because we don't know the details of GW declarations and also because I know for a fact that guilds have connections with each other even w/o global chat, because that's the entire point of politics.
Also, guilds will potentially be spread out across several nodes (and alliances of guilds probably spread out over the entire server), so any big movements by, supposedly from your description, THE STRONGEST alliance on the server would be seen and talked about before that aggressor alliance even gets to the point of declaring a war or a siege.
W/o global chat my relatively small guild knew about a big guild doing the epic boss prerequisite quest, because that info was being tracked and related to all opposing guilds within minutes of that big guild's actions.
Again, I think that people who want to be at the top should simply do better. Obviously there'll always be someone who's stronger and more coordinated, but I'm 100% sure that you don't need a global chat to stand up against them.
"Now I know what you're thinking, the Mayor could just tell all their friends about the buy orders and fill them and use that to enrich their friends and get Mandates... but they could ALSO lie to people!"
I'm sure I'm not remembering this clearly enough (from the Node Stream).
I don't really know what to make of Steven's intents with these things, but my point is about 'enjoyability', and so is Neurath's. In the end, there's 'challenge that will be satisfying when you overcome it because the process is enjoyable', and then there's what you do.
Most of us can't find enjoyment in what you do for very long. If this turns into a 'strategy game that looks like an MMORPG' for people and then has no global chat on top of it, then whether or not one can contest the top isn't the point. It's whether or not one even cares.
You can spread out across the server, that's fine. Guild wars will be simple against you. To my knowledge, a guild can fight other guild members in a Node Siege. Thus, guild affiliation won't assist you in a Node Siege. It is true that information can spread but what will you do with the information exactly? you're spread across two continents and citizens of multiple nodes. You would become Guild D in your previous retort and Guild D in your previous statement. Guild wars can be declared at any time. You only need to war with the strongest opponent in an alliance, or, even declare a war against the whole alliance. Its not clear if you can declare guild war against multiple non allied guilds or multiple alliances at the same time though.
The aggressor alliance might be patrons of their node, which means, the node will declare Node War against your node too. Your forces would be too scattered to fight effectively and the siege scroll would be made. The siege goes ahead and your caught on the hop. Other alliances won't come to your aid because of your planning and the fact your base of operations wasn't defined. Your reputation is a fraction of what it could be in local terms because your guild is in such small numbers where they are located unless you are a Mega Guild. Interestingly, General (Global) chat would strengthen your position in the scenario.
Because Caravan Attacks are instant, easy, and unlimited. There would be a lot of other stuff like this too.
But you said yourself that you don't expect even a single Caravan to successfully arrive after a while. Which, I think you're fine with?
I'm just not.
I should've been more clear about that. I meant "solo" as truly solo. As in a singular person using a whole damn caravan. I simply don't believe that will ever be successful or even required, considering mules exist.
I guess guild-run caravans are "personal" too, just like the solo ones, but that is why I used "solo" instead of personal. Guilds will protect themselves. The success of that protection will vary, but that's up to the guilds to deal with. Hell, I expect mule runs to be the meta, if all current supposed designs remain in the game.
Ok, I think we'll just be going in forevercircles on this. You can't see how global chat isn't a panacea and I can't see how it is. Very specific examples based on the designs we don't know about would simply lead us back to arguing our own imaginations, as always.
We shall come back to this when we learn more about all the required contextual details and maybe by that time I will have changed my mind on the topic.
But for now, fuck global chat, fuck lfgs, I'm gonna go finish watching Fall of Ushers
Basically this. I don't mind the idea of 'if you want to compete, get good'. But to break this down really specifically:
Aggressors have different focuses than 'base population' players. They can, and do, specialize into disruption, and with only Node chat, either the Node will themselves be the Aggressors, or a Guild will be the Aggressors and the Node has no reason to assist you. You could 'aim to have a contact in the Node', the 'get good' part, but that contact isn't actually doing anything except maybe reporting to you. They're not organizing a 'defense reason', they're not causing alliances.
Supposedly Mayors will do that. I'm sure they'll enjoy that aspect. Non-Mayors will ... hope they don't lie to us... or something... I guess.
Tactically, there's zero benefit for anyone to help you in these situations unless, as you noted, you have made contact with likeminded people. Who are probably in your guild, possibly in your Node. Which is great. No concerns there other than 'numbers'.
It's an abstract concern, here. I'll just quote a team member:
"What part of this game is supposed to be fun, exactly, now?"
Note that she's talking about 'in comparison to other stuff', of course. Not saying 'oh this game is terrible I could never enjoy it'.
But there's Elden Ring, and then there's Lords of the Fallen.
The other option I see here are bulletin boards. They are far too slow. People tend to post then ignore them.
I am not a fan of this. First this is a subs based game so you cannot realistically charge people to use a feature. The other option would be to make it resource based. Having to collect stuff just to use the channel would annoy the life out of me. Having a resource build up over time would just mean that alt accounts would be use to accrue that resource.
@Mag7spy I agree, without communication games become dead very quickly. Using a discord is not an answer to in game chat. A lot don't like using mics
The best I have seen is a LFG in game channel. This makes the community interact with each other. Bad players are called out, good players use it to make cash. Not everyone likes the channel option, but then you don't have to be in it. So long as people have the option to leave the channel, then it is not spam. Not everyone is a fan of this option. My opinion is make a few options available and players will be attracted to the most used option.
Its not about being a panacea. I've fought aggressor alliances before and global chat managed to defeat the aggressor alliance. You had the best fighters from scores of guilds all uniting in raids to fight the aggressor alliance after guild leaders surrendered and the aggressor alliance couldn't take the heat. That wouldn't have happened without global chat. In fact, the mega guild fragmented and wasn't seen again in the server or on global chat. A new alliance formed from those freedom fighters after the aggressor alliance was defeated. It can be difficult to operate when spotters spot you in a zone and broadcast the positions. There is no fast travel in Ashes though except for Science Metro so those caught on the hop will be decimated. There are no hard and fast rules and the devs often make changes, I half expect changes after my essays lol. I feel Node Chat is a panacea because you want it to exclude everyone who's not a citizen. Does that mean there will be no chat channel at all before Stage 3 nodes?
People like me fight hard against stronger foes, people like Steven are those stronger foes and are having fun being them, while we're having fun fighting upwards. We're the mountain and the Sisyphus, except with a bit more fun
To me the examples Neura provided are the base lvl of interaction between guild-like entities in mmos. There's always a big bad who's great and a bunch of small fish that gotta work way harder to fight against the big bad. Global chat will never change that, because people in global chat have no damn reason to help you for whatever reason.
I feel like the premise of their supposed help (or guild D's supposed bigger notoriety thanks to GC) as naïve as my belief that destination nodes won't fuck over the caravan drivers each time.
This is how I see chat channels:
All available since the moment their requirement is met (if there is one).
On top of those channels there's obviously the friend/PM stuff and additional options of creating certain groups of people in a separate chat window (imo should be limited to friends/mates).
Alliance Channel, Guild Channel and Party Channel are server wide. I don't see an issue with a Server Wide Channel. In fact, I would love a Node Channel (For all players who enter the nodes, not just citizens) and a Server Wide Channel. That way, players have options. Your options are too restrictive and safe. Knowledge is power. Once you're blacklisted on your Node Citizen Channel you're screwed until you move node. Also, a 'New Player Help' Server Wide Channel would be preferential too.
I don't want trade channel and node citizens channel.
Not even notification that node war was declared, if I am out in the wilderness. Let players spread the news as they meet if they see non guilded fellow citizens.
Scattered around the wiki (I was trying to get to this in another thread too, but the point I wanted to get to works in this thread just as well)
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/In_game_chat
There is a very, very vague statement about 'User Created Chat Channels'. As a player that likes to run things a lot. My hope is that I will be able to grow a very large friend list, and create chat channels for my, and my friends own use. (aka FF14 linkshells, or GW2 extra guilds to join)
Mindful of the spying and enemy user element that will happen, which is a thing in this game, I would still want to make channels for dungeons and various pve things. PvP things, crafting things.
My friends could also add users to the channels, and so on. But also the social list of friends list is also very... blank on the wiki
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Friends_list
The point is, I want to be able to connect, at any moment of the day, without having to wait around for bulletin board waiting to instantly talk to like minded players to see who is available to do what, or if anything is currently going on I can jump in to.
I don't play games as much as I did when I was younger, so the value of being able to reach out on a scale beyond just my immediate node is huge to me now as compared to long before when I could just play all day, and waiting on something like a bulletin board wouldn't be an issue to me then.
I guess if written invite commands work across the entire server than you wouldn't need to have met, but then we're just back to discord circumvention arguments. I'd personally prefer direct contact requirement for invites, but I'm sure people will get up in arms against that even more than for global chat.
Yep
And I'm against giving it up to everybody in the game.
If you've fucked up so damn much that your node blacklists you (if that is a possibility even) - you'd have bigger problems than simply not being able to chat.
To me this is guild chat, because I'd prefer if guilds were the ones to help newbies
10000 players enter the chat.... lol
I see public chats more along the lines of what @NiKr mentioned regionally and factionally to some extent for lack of better wording.
Global at launch in my opinion since it's only available during testing currently could probably be more along the lines of regional/vassal/biome to some extent without game breaking immersive design.
IE:
Riverland's Chat - node 1- local
Riverland's Chat - node 1 - vassal
Riverland's Chat - node 1 - citizen
The only detail I'm not aware of for verification for design intent is if say you're allegiance lies to another node/vassal network if you can just walk into other zones and freely read what they're saying. which raises a lot of questions for various design goals which what @NiKr may have been getting at with draw distances and additional rulesets.
There's no hiding the fact people will use things such as discord to bypass some boundaries but that's just something we have to accept in 2023 modern gaming.
I'm fine with group boards at taverns and what not. This gives players a reason to stop in to taverns to look for active postings. Considering how many of them there could be from freeholds and cities, lots of nodes to access them from regionally/locally for postings.
Your statements are confusing. You said Node is the highest Allegiance, which means Guild is not required. Some people won't want to join a guild to get newbie help. Some guilds won't accept newbies to help them. There is a strange situation where you seem to want to constrict the game and stop the game from blossoming. Tell me, will corrupted players also have access to your Node Citizens Channel? If so, I see it no different to Global Chat except people will black list the corrupted players who will forever be banished - even after corruption has been removed. I don't feel the situation warrants such paradigms. Global Chat is forever welcoming, people can be blocked but people are still free to communicate. A black list from everyone else in a node would be devastating. Its the fast track to having information given to enemies. Also, who has the power to black list a player from Node Citizen Chat? Can a Mayor silence all opposition?
Great, but we don't really need to 'go in circles'.
Neurath has told you 'Global chat helps, people do make connections, band together, and help fight the big aggressor'. I'll support this statement too, this is also my experience.
But if no one else has reason to help you without you talking to them first, then now it's a strategy game. And the point being made was 'lack of global chat is a pain point in that situation', for many. The Global Chat is a way of fulfilling that 'requirement' of 'talk to person first so maybe they help you in a random situation if nearby'.
'MMORPG' (call this whatever you like really) - Go about your business, interact with people on the way, converge and form bonds as circumstances appear
Strategy game - Form your bonds and hierarchies through interacting with people before going about your business, aim to control your circumstances
I'm sure it's just that heavily PvP MMOs tend to become more like strategy games, or something like that. Hopefully once Ashes has been out for a few years I'll have learned the details.
So what's more valuable to you then, great connections with a lot of people in your direct vicinity, where you can almost immediately go do smth if they are doing smth, or ability to communicate with everybody who's most likely way further away from you, so instead of playing you'll be running? And even if you'll run to them, there's a chance that they'll find someone else before you get there.
Because I've seen that latter situation happen in a game with TPs and lfg menus. I can't even imagine how often this shit would happen in a game w/ no fast travel but a global chat.
Oh right, there's also the option of going through 20 replies from said global chat and trying to figure out who's the closest to you. Would probably take a few minutes as well.
These points aren't actual arguments against Global Chat though. That's just a function of the game's design having friction with the tools provided to its players.
Which is the whole point being made. In one design, I consider Global Chat to be so obviously terrible that it shouldn't even be considered. In the other, it's a strongish positive.
Nothing changed about the functions of Global Chat itself between those two things. At all. I'm not 'expecting that a problem that it causes will go away because Certs exist'. I'm saying that whereas in the first design it has less value and causes a meaningful detriment specific to the game's goals, in the second design it has more value and it doesn't cause the detriment because the goals are different (it still causes others, many of the ones you bring up, but now we're weighing benefit vs those).
Even in games like WoW, players still complain about having to fly 30 - 60 seconds on average to a dungeon/raid even after taking a portal that brings them across the world. It's just never good enough until you're brought directly into the dungeon. This is not what ashes is going to be.
I know it's naïve to assume that people are helpful, but I've experienced a ton of help and given it out as well. Also, we'll have mentorship systems for guilds, so they'll have their incentive to help newbies too.
Why would a corrupted player suddenly be banished by their own node? Did he murder half the node? Why did he do that? This is a weird assumption to make here.
I'm not even sure if they can do that. Have we heard this kind of info?
Like I said before, I see no point in global chat. If you believe it will save the game from inevitable peril - I hope Steven hears your prayers and answers them.
I find the issue hilarious. You want to exclude non citizens from Node Chat (The most predominant chat other than the social organisation chat channels to you) and then want to push people to use /Shout or /Normal or Bulletin Boards to form parties. How often will you be running back to the bulletin boards exactly? Gotta run somewhere because there's no TP. How close will people be to use /Shout or /Normal exactly? Only applicable inside the node/tavern where the bulletin board is? Global Chat unites players at all hours. In off peak times it is perfectly acceptable to wait 20 minutes for a group to form - the group often lasts all night.
It is true some players won't wait 20 minutes but you'd soon have people on your friends lists if you are a good player. Hell, after one week I had a team of players for every off-peak night of the week in old MMOs. That was all from Global initially. The truth is, if you are a good player you won't be replaced. You need server wide reputation not just local reputation for server wide exploitation. Also, who says you won't wait 20 minutes in a tavern for people to reach the bulletin boards?
I've brought it up before and I'll bring it up again - greater distance equals more money in the pocket. I have to run to opposite locations either way, may as well meet people in those far reaches at the same time.