Having LFG would be fine

TeemEmurica

Mag7spy wrote: »

TeemEmurica wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

@NiKr THere isn't 10 thousand people spamming chat, there is no reason to design it like that. It is a terrible take, atleast use a realistic example.

Edit

It is like saying you have 10k people all in one single dungeon so they need instanced content.

You mean this post that doesn't make any point at all other than to make it out to be an extreme position. Which I did address, although to be fair I edited it in shortly after posting but before seeing this. I said that it doesn't need to be all 10,000 talking, just enough for it to be impossible to read.

That still won't be happening so ill just repeat again you divide the regions and give people access to them globally splitting the player base, you add a form of cost so people can't do it infinitely, you can add cooldowns on how often you can post.

You have multiple channels LFG, Trade to help organize them (which can also be based off regions you select). Not everyone will care about posting, some people will ignore chat all together.

You personally not liking chat does not mean you need to care or use it. Allow people to connect, chat and see what is going on for who wants it.

So yeah, no. As I have said in my post before this, which you refused to address yourself, that Global Chat in a game like AoC wouldn't make sense. Also you don't need spam when you have enough people talking at the same time, your cooldown would have to be significant which can cause fustration.

Songcaller

15,000 A1 testers used Global Chat in A1. In fact, you could even claim it was Regional Chat due to the map size. At no time were 15,000 people fighting to speak in Global Chat. I have said before that the only spam was the DDOS attack that happened. You can bitch and moan about global spam all you want but the devs have tricks to stop spam attacks. I do not believe Node Citizen Chat should be the umbrella chat channel - it is far too restrictive. Your mind sets are too limited and small to think on the larger scale. The only plausible channel for an MMORPG is the server wide channel - even in separate guises like Newbie Help, Trade Chat, LFG Chat, General Chat etc. Reputation matters and there is no reputation on a server level without server wide communication.

Mag7spy

TeemEmurica wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

TeemEmurica wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

@NiKr THere isn't 10 thousand people spamming chat, there is no reason to design it like that. It is a terrible take, atleast use a realistic example.

Edit

It is like saying you have 10k people all in one single dungeon so they need instanced content.

You mean this post that doesn't make any point at all other than to make it out to be an extreme position. Which I did address, although to be fair I edited it in shortly after posting but before seeing this. I said that it doesn't need to be all 10,000 talking, just enough for it to be impossible to read.

That still won't be happening so ill just repeat again you divide the regions and give people access to them globally splitting the player base, you add a form of cost so people can't do it infinitely, you can add cooldowns on how often you can post.

You have multiple channels LFG, Trade to help organize them (which can also be based off regions you select). Not everyone will care about posting, some people will ignore chat all together.

You personally not liking chat does not mean you need to care or use it. Allow people to connect, chat and see what is going on for who wants it.

So yeah, no. As I have said in my post before this, which you refused to address yourself, that Global Chat in a game like AoC wouldn't make sense. Also you don't need spam when you have enough people talking at the same time, your cooldown would have to be significant which can cause fustration.

This boils down to your own preference and assumptions on what you think spam is and wanting to force it on other players. So pretty much you are just making a selfish point.

When met with solutions you say suddenly people are frustrated trying to play both sides in order to convince yourself you are right. Global chat is not meant to be talked in 24/7, there is no frustration on limits, you are just blowing smoke up my ass. Local chats and global chats both can exist and be used.

Depraved

NiKr wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

but is it okay that player a from a guild types something in one corner of the map and player b from the same guild (o ally) sees it when he is on the other corner of the map?

To me yes, because those players have met or at the very least have met a liaison that invited them both. Though again, to me this works only if the invite process if personal and not a chat command across the world.

Also, I don't remember if you've talked about it here. What was your experience with L2's chat system. You're on the side of globalists, so I assume you disliked L2's chat. Is there a certain reason or just a general dislike of it all?

i liked l2 ! chat. it was the 2nd best thing after pvp.

people saying where are you? im comign back to kill you !@#$%
people agreeing to meet again at a farming spot and have a group pvp.
people yelling pk at X pk at X
people flaming each other about who is the biggest noob in pvp
people just having normal conversations and bonding.
people yelling this dude is a scammer
people trying to locate the owner of a certain dwarf shop to try to buy an item for a discount
people trying to locate a certain person for whatever reason
and when i wasnt in the mood for it, id just turn it off.

TeemEmurica

@Neurath and @Mag7spy

So we obviously want completely different types of games so I am just going to ask you both a question I want you to answer and not ignore.

Given the size of the world, what is the point of Global Chat if Fast Travel won't exist? Also Node chat can do everything in the above post by @Depraved

Depraved

not everything ;3

Ludullu

Depraved wrote: »

i liked l2 ! chat. it was the 2nd best thing after pvp.

But that is simply a shout chat which, iirc, worked for the location and not further. We'll have that in Ashes and I expect it to work in pretty much the same way as L2's did.

And then on top of that we'll have node citizen chat, that would go even further than your location, but would be targeted at people who'll supposedly be more friendly towards you.

And shout is exactly what I want, because it's local, it's immediate to your and others' actions within that location and it's about direct player to player interactions.

Depraved

nodes are small T_T
some servers made the shout chat a global chat
the trade chat was also global too i think?
also those things applied to hero chat as well xd

Ludullu

Depraved wrote: »

nodes are small T_T
some servers made the shout chat a global chat
the trade chat was also global too i think?
also those things applied to hero chat as well xd

If you preferred shout/trade to be global (which they weren't by default), then that's a separate point. And I addressed the significance of L2's hero chat before here.

Nodes will have 100+ people for majority of people. And with the game being designed around primetime gaming, those 100+ people will most likely be online when you are.

But even outside of node citizen chat, the location-based shout would work just as it did in L2. You'll have a dungeon filled with people (potentially hundreds of them) that are within a minute or two of running from each other, so you posting something in shout chat would have way more weight than just using the global chat.

The only way I'd see global chat working in Ashes is if each and every node has enough content for all of its citizens across all of their levels, because at that point there'd be no point in leaving your node and seeing other people.

But somehow I highly doubt that's gonna be the case, so all the strong guilds will intermingle and learn of each other through dungeon/boss farming and will be able to make connections even w/o global chat.

Songcaller

Its a massive misnomer that keeps getting repeated. Somehow you believe Global Chat means people don't explore. Its simply not the case. Global Chat is not an instant queue. Global Chat is a functional societal tool. It helps players organise, helps players expand and helps players connect. If the game doesn't have enough reason to go out exploring there are bigger issues than whether Global Chat exists. If people prefer to sit and talk to others, they should be allowed. It appears to me you're incapable of forming actual bonds via chat and need to do it through action. That's fine, but some prefer to use the chat functions on a server wide scale.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

Its a massive misnomer that keeps getting repeated. Somehow you believe Global Chat means people don't explore. Its simply not the case.

And I can say the same about your assumption that local chat doesn't lead to server-wide connections

But we've discussed this for way too much, so I ain't continuing this again.

Songcaller

NiKr wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Its a massive misnomer that keeps getting repeated. Somehow you believe Global Chat means people don't explore. Its simply not the case.

And I can say the same about your assumption that local chat doesn't lead to server-wide connections

But we've discussed this for way too much, so I ain't continuing this again.

I never said local chat doesn't lead to server wide connections. I said having citizen only chat be the umbrella chat was a dumb as fuck move.

Depraved

NiKr wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

nodes are small T_T
some servers made the shout chat a global chat
the trade chat was also global too i think?
also those things applied to hero chat as well xd

If you preferred shout/trade to be global (which they weren't by default), then that's a separate point. And I addressed the significance of L2's hero chat before here.

Nodes will have 100+ people for majority of people. And with the game being designed around primetime gaming, those 100+ people will most likely be online when you are.

But even outside of node citizen chat, the location-based shout would work just as it did in L2. You'll have a dungeon filled with people (potentially hundreds of them) that are within a minute or two of running from each other, so you posting something in shout chat would have way more weight than just using the global chat.

The only way I'd see global chat working in Ashes is if each and every node has enough content for all of its citizens across all of their levels, because at that point there'd be no point in leaving your node and seeing other people.

But somehow I highly doubt that's gonna be the case, so all the strong guilds will intermingle and learn of each other through dungeon/boss farming and will be able to make connections even w/o global chat.

bruhhh.. ok node chat. imagine if you are in valley of saint spawn and you use node chat. only people who are in the spawn and near punishments will hear you. nodes are little in aoc. thats like half of windsward in nw.

if node chat included parnts and children nodes, then sure. if it only includes your node, thats literally half of valley of saint. so half the players will talk to 10 other people? lol

Ludullu

Depraved wrote: »

bruhhh.. ok node chat. imagine if you are in valley of saint spawn and you use node chat. only people who are in the spawn and near punishments will hear you. nodes are little in aoc. thats like half of windsward in nw.

if node chat included parnts and children nodes, then sure. if it only includes your node, thats literally half of valley of saint. so half the players will talk to 10 other people? lol

Node citizenship is a separate chat channel.

Like I said, I expect shout function to work the same way as L2's did, so it'd be a location chat, which means the same hundreds of people that L2's locations had.

Songcaller

NiKr wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

bruhhh.. ok node chat. imagine if you are in valley of saint spawn and you use node chat. only people who are in the spawn and near punishments will hear you. nodes are little in aoc. thats like half of windsward in nw.

if node chat included parnts and children nodes, then sure. if it only includes your node, thats literally half of valley of saint. so half the players will talk to 10 other people? lol

Node citizenship is a separate chat channel.

Like I said, I expect shout function to work the same way as L2's did, so it'd be a location chat, which means the same hundreds of people that L2's locations had.

No one is saying not to have such functions. We are saying to keep Global Chat alongside those functions.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

No one is saying not to have such functions. We are saying to keep Global Chat alongside those functions.

I know, and we've discussed that already, Neura. I was just clearing up my point for Depraved cause it seemed to either misunderstand me or maybe I misunderstood what he wrote.

Depraved

NiKr wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

bruhhh.. ok node chat. imagine if you are in valley of saint spawn and you use node chat. only people who are in the spawn and near punishments will hear you. nodes are little in aoc. thats like half of windsward in nw.

if node chat included parnts and children nodes, then sure. if it only includes your node, thats literally half of valley of saint. so half the players will talk to 10 other people? lol

Node citizenship is a separate chat channel.

Like I said, I expect shout function to work the same way as L2's did, so it'd be a location chat, which means the same hundreds of people that L2's locations had.

Hold on. I'm confused now.

Let's say I'm a citizen of a level 3 node, and you are a citizen of its level 4 parent node. We aren't citizens of the same node. if I type in node citizenship chat, should you be able to read me yes or no?

if your answer is no, then what I explained earlier stands.

Songcaller

Depraved wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

bruhhh.. ok node chat. imagine if you are in valley of saint spawn and you use node chat. only people who are in the spawn and near punishments will hear you. nodes are little in aoc. thats like half of windsward in nw.

if node chat included parnts and children nodes, then sure. if it only includes your node, thats literally half of valley of saint. so half the players will talk to 10 other people? lol

Node citizenship is a separate chat channel.

Like I said, I expect shout function to work the same way as L2's did, so it'd be a location chat, which means the same hundreds of people that L2's locations had.

Hold on. I'm confused now.

Let's say I'm a citizen of a level 3 node, and you are a citizen of its level 4 parent node. We aren't citizens of the same node. if I type in node citizenship chat, should you be able to read me yes or no?

if your answer is no, then what I explained earlier stands.

Nik has said previously that the citizen chat would span the zoi, So, the citizen chats of local nodes would have to merge once a metro is present. However, i still don't like the idea of it being the umbrella form of communication. I see citizen chat to be an extra boon much like Alliance Chat (Not known if it will exist) or Religion Chat (Not known if it will exist).

Ludullu

Depraved wrote: »

Let's say I'm a citizen of a level 3 node, and you are a citizen of its level 4 parent node. We aren't citizens of the same node. if I type in node citizenship chat, should you be able to read me yes or no?

No, because "node citizenship chat" is only for citizens. I'd imagine those citizens can be wherever they want to be, but still see messages in their citizenship chat. This is why I've been trying to not call it "node chat", because that's not what it is.

If a location takes up several nodes-worth of land of simply has pieces of several nodes in it (if it's right on their borders) - a shout chat should in theory work across all those nodes, because that chat wouldn't care about the node affiliations or ZOIs. In L2 terms, you coming to first floor of TOI and !ing "hey everyone" should be seen all the way up at Baium and in the general vicinity of TOI (and iirc this was the case in L2).

There'll also be social org and religion chats supposedly, and those will potentially work on a global scale. I don't really know how I feel about them right now, cause they're both limited in member numbers and unlimited in range (in theory).

Neurath wrote: »

Nik has said previously that the citizen chat would span the zoi, So, the citizen chats of local nodes would have to merge once a metro is present.

I think you're referencing what I'd prefer to be in the game, not what is currently planned. Or maybe I didn't get my point across properly back then.

I would prefer a node-based system, where your character's location within the vassal chain matters, so if you're in the metro - you'd "hear" all the citizens of the chain, as long as you're a member of one of the vassals. But if you go into one of the lowest vassals - you're in a village, separate from all the mass information flows.

Songcaller

NiKr wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Let's say I'm a citizen of a level 3 node, and you are a citizen of its level 4 parent node. We aren't citizens of the same node. if I type in node citizenship chat, should you be able to read me yes or no?

No, because "node citizenship chat" is only for citizens. I'd imagine those citizens can be wherever they want to be, but still see messages in their citizenship chat. This is why I've been trying to not call it "node chat", because that's not what it is.

If a location takes up several nodes-worth of land of simply has pieces of several nodes in it (if it's right on their borders) - a shout chat should in theory work across all those nodes, because that chat wouldn't care about the node affiliations or ZOIs. In L2 terms, you coming to first floor of TOI and !ing "hey everyone" should be seen all the way up at Baium and in the general vicinity of TOI (and iirc this was the case in L2).

There'll also be social org and religion chats supposedly, and those will potentially work on a global scale. I don't really know how I feel about them right now, cause they're both limited in member numbers and unlimited in range (in theory).

Neurath wrote: »

Nik has said previously that the citizen chat would span the zoi, So, the citizen chats of local nodes would have to merge once a metro is present.

I think you're referencing what I'd prefer to be in the game, not what is currently planned. Or maybe I didn't get my point across properly back then.

I would prefer a node-based system, where your character's location within the vassal chain matters, so if you're in the metro - you'd "hear" all the citizens of the chain, as long as you're a member of one of the vassals. But if you go into one of the lowest vassals - you're in a village, separate from all the mass information flows.

I'm not sure how the devs will implement the Node Citizen Chat. In my mind, it does no good to have the chats linked and it does no good to have the chats as umbrellas. Global Chat should link all these systems together and can be avoided by those who do not like Global Chat. What would be the point in having communication inside a Node Citizen Chat have other people in a different node in it? How would you prepare to fight other nodes or a subvert parent node if the parent node can see whats being discussed in a vassal node?

Depraved

NiKr wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Let's say I'm a citizen of a level 3 node, and you are a citizen of its level 4 parent node. We aren't citizens of the same node. if I type in node citizenship chat, should you be able to read me yes or no?

No, because "node citizenship chat" is only for citizens. I'd imagine those citizens can be wherever they want to be, but still see messages in their citizenship chat. This is why I've been trying to not call it "node chat", because that's not what it is.

If a location takes up several nodes-worth of land of simply has pieces of several nodes in it (if it's right on their borders) - a shout chat should in theory work across all those nodes, because that chat wouldn't care about the node affiliations or ZOIs. In L2 terms, you coming to first floor of TOI and !ing "hey everyone" should be seen all the way up at Baium and in the general vicinity of TOI (and iirc this was the case in L2).

There'll also be social org and religion chats supposedly, and those will potentially work on a global scale. I don't really know how I feel about them right now, cause they're both limited in member numbers and unlimited in range (in theory).

Neurath wrote: »

Nik has said previously that the citizen chat would span the zoi, So, the citizen chats of local nodes would have to merge once a metro is present.

I think you're referencing what I'd prefer to be in the game, not what is currently planned. Or maybe I didn't get my point across properly back then.

I would prefer a node-based system, where your character's location within the vassal chain matters, so if you're in the metro - you'd "hear" all the citizens of the chain, as long as you're a member of one of the vassals. But if you go into one of the lowest vassals - you're in a village, separate from all the mass information flows.

ok so people will be split into 85 citizen chats

Ludullu

Depraved wrote: »

ok so people will be split into 85 citizen chats

Yes, it will be one of the chats you'll have, among others. The entire point of the node system is to have separate communities, just like L2 did with clans. L2 players also had "85 chats", yet they somehow spoke to each other, didn't they.

SirChancelot

Having a more organized interface for finding groups to join, or players to add to your group sounds great. I'd prefer that to having a dozen people yelling in trade chat.

Having the auto group queue and teleport you in and out and everything else LFG does, no thanks.

Dygz

With Open World Housing, Ashes shouldn't need LFG systems beyond Bulletin Boards.
I expect Alpha 2 to demonstrate Ashes doesn't need Global Chat.

Shabooey

I've had a look at the Wiki but couldn't find anything on how they are actually going to work, is there anymore information on that?
Do you post that you want X for a dungeon or quest and wait and hope someone will go to the board and accept it or is it accessible via your UI?

Songcaller

NiKr wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

ok so people will be split into 85 citizen chats

Yes, it will be one of the chats you'll have, among others. The entire point of the node system is to have separate communities, just like L2 did with clans. L2 players also had "85 chats", yet they somehow spoke to each other, didn't they.

I can't believe you have used Clan Chat (Equivalent to Guild Chat) to try and shore up your argument for closed societies. We have Guild Chat already, possibly even will have Alliance chat already. We will have Node Citizen Chat which is a given but we should also have Global Chat. Right now I see no reason not to have Global Chat. You still wouldn't leak information in Node Citizen Chat. Everything that applies to Global Chat would still apply to Node Citizen Chat and vice versa. They are two social tools for different purposes. What's the point in real time Global Announcements if you don't have real time Global Communication?

Edit: By Global I mean Regional Chat like A1. I used to call the chat General Chat which we will have but General Chat seems to be an amalgamation of all chats. I am happy with the planned Regional Chats.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

By Global I mean Regional Chat like A1. I used to call the chat General Chat which we will have but General Chat seems to be an amalgamation of all chats. I am happy with the planned Regional Chats.

I'm confused by this. Do you mean a proper global chat for the entire server or a regional chat that only works in a certain region?

Songcaller

NiKr wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

By Global I mean Regional Chat like A1. I used to call the chat General Chat which we will have but General Chat seems to be an amalgamation of all chats. I am happy with the planned Regional Chats.

I'm confused by this. Do you mean a proper global chat for the entire server or a regional chat that only works in a certain region?

I mean Global Chat from a1 - a continuation of that. Its called Global Chat but its a Regional Chat. So to be more specific I mean a Regional Chat (Probably better to rename Global Chat to Regional Chat if Steven reads this lol).

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

I mean Global Chat from a1 - a continuation of that. Its called Global Chat but its a Regional Chat. So to be more specific I mean a Regional Chat (Probably better to rename Global Chat to Regional Chat if Steven reads this lol).

Alpha1 was tiny so "regional chat" could work across it all. So again, just to make sure this entire fucking thing hasn't been an utter misunderstanding, do you want a chat that works across the entire server or do you want a chat that spans a certain region, and if you walk into another region this same chat would have different members?

Songcaller

NiKr wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

I mean Global Chat from a1 - a continuation of that. Its called Global Chat but its a Regional Chat. So to be more specific I mean a Regional Chat (Probably better to rename Global Chat to Regional Chat if Steven reads this lol).

Alpha1 was tiny so "regional chat" could work across it all. So again, just to make sure this entire fucking thing hasn't been an utter misunderstanding, do you want a chat that works across the entire server or do you want a chat that spans a certain region, and if you walk into another region this same chat would have different members?

Yeah, that's why the devs called it Global Chat. Because it could work across it all. But, its a regional chat because it only covered a region. So, a replication of 'Global Chat' for multiple regions of the map. By that, I mean you would talk with different people dependant on your location. I'm not sure how Regional Chat would work in the ocean but otherwise I do want to converse with others in the region. However, there are micro regions and macro regions. So, continent chat is not requested or two factions will form. I'd still want to talk to people in the north of a region from the south of a region and vice versa.