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PVP Flagging system wont work because of one single issue

Multiple characters.
You could in theory have the dishonor be account bound but then people will just have 2 accounts.
People will just have a character that is perma red just to gank whoever they want.... It will completely nullify the entire dishonor system... The game will be dead in 6 months without the ability to completely toggle off all PVP.
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Comments

  • Lynexia wrote: »
    Multiple characters.
    You could in theory have the dishonor be account bound but then people will just have 2 accounts.
    People will just have a character that is perma red just to gank whoever they want.... It will completely nullify the entire dishonor system... The game will be dead in 6 months without the ability to completely toggle off all PVP.

    Corruption is a spectrum where the more you kill people, eventually it starts affecting your stats to the point where you will be ineffective. So unless you are advocating that someone will buy a new account/make a new character every single time to level them up to then never use them again because Corruption doesn't go away on it's own. So I think you will come to find that this specific idea isn't how the game will work. However, I am sure players will find a way to abuse it.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption
  • oh no.... you have to play the game to remove corruption penalties...

    Removing corruption

    The primary means to remove corruption is through death. Multiple deaths may be necessary to remove all corruption.[69][35]

    Dying removes a significant portion of a player's corruption score.[70]
    Gaining experience will also slowly reduce a player's corruption score.[71][22][69]
    A quest may be utilized to reduce the player kill (PK) count of a corrupt player in order for them to accumulate less corruption score in the future.[72][70]
    This is a design shift from a religious quest being used to directly reduce the corruption score.[73]
  • Nova_terra wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Multiple characters.
    You could in theory have the dishonor be account bound but then people will just have 2 accounts.
    People will just have a character that is perma red just to gank whoever they want.... It will completely nullify the entire dishonor system... The game will be dead in 6 months without the ability to completely toggle off all PVP.

    Corruption is a spectrum where the more you kill people, eventually it starts affecting your stats to the point where you will be ineffective. So unless you are advocating that someone will buy a new account/make a new character every single time to level them up to then never use them again because Corruption doesn't go away on it's own. So I think you will come to find that this specific idea isn't how the game will work. However, I am sure players will find a way to abuse it.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption

    Until you realise that you can just get friends to kill you a couple of times... to remove corruption then go straight back to killing anyone you like... Yeah can't see that system being abused at all. People talk about the corruption system like it has no flaws but it's just not going to work.
  • oh no.... you have to play the game to remove corruption penalties...

    Removing corruption

    The primary means to remove corruption is through death. Multiple deaths may be necessary to remove all corruption.[69][35]

    Dying removes a significant portion of a player's corruption score.[70]
    Gaining experience will also slowly reduce a player's corruption score.[71][22][69]
    A quest may be utilized to reduce the player kill (PK) count of a corrupt player in order for them to accumulate less corruption score in the future.[72][70]
    This is a design shift from a religious quest being used to directly reduce the corruption score.[73]

    I'm confused by this reply.. it doesn't seem to address anything I said in my OP
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited November 2023
    Lynexia wrote: »
    The game will be dead in 6 months without the ability to completely toggle off all PVP.

    I recommend playing final fantasy 14 its a great game, GW2 as well, theres also Pax Dei, Riot MMO, Chrono Odyssey and other mmos without forced pvp that you can look forward to

    Ashes is not a game you will enjoy if you want pvp toggles,
    img]
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  • Liniker wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    The game will be dead in 6 months without the ability to completely toggle off all PVP.

    I recommend playing final fantasy 14 its a great game, GW2 as well, theres also Pax Dei, Riot MMO, Chrono Odyssey and other mmos without forced pvp that you can look forward to

    Ashes is not a game you will enjoy if you want pvp toggles,

    Without a PVP toggle the game wont be profitable.. Nobody will be playing it at max a year after launch. Not a chance.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited November 2023
    also.. about the points you made, you are not the first to think about this, literally takes 5 minutes for any new visitor after reading about the system to come up with your proposed "exploits" and developers know and addressed this years ago,

    you can not have a "perma red" character you literally get a debuff that makes you weaker than a low level player when you stack corruption,

    if you die or your friends kill you you are basically fucked, you gonna spend hours of grinding XP back and if you dont - the negative XP debuffs you making your character as weak as a low level character so...

    and leveling alts takes a shit ton of time so good luck with that

    etc etc etc, I recommend reading the wiki but again,

    from your post I can tell you dont like forced PvP so I can already tell you won't enjoy this game anyways
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  • edited November 2023
    Lynexia wrote: »
    oh no.... you have to play the game to remove corruption penalties...

    Removing corruption

    The primary means to remove corruption is through death. Multiple deaths may be necessary to remove all corruption.[69][35]

    Dying removes a significant portion of a player's corruption score.[70]
    Gaining experience will also slowly reduce a player's corruption score.[71][22][69]
    A quest may be utilized to reduce the player kill (PK) count of a corrupt player in order for them to accumulate less corruption score in the future.[72][70]
    This is a design shift from a religious quest being used to directly reduce the corruption score.[73]

    I'm confused by this reply.. it doesn't seem to address anything I said in my OP

    there's lots of ways around it, that's for sure. It's not like you kill a player and entire population of the node is coming after you lol

    I made pretty much the same comments you did in another thread

    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/56527/imposed-pvp-and-ganking/p1

    - get your friends to kill you and loot your gear back
    - equip gear you dont care to lose
    - mount up run like the wind

    it's to promote and encourage safety in numbers and deter groups from outside interference if you choose to flag up as non-combatant.

    It's not really the end of the world to have to die or play the game to get rid of corruption. This feature will probably snowball into harder penalties to encourage softer gameplay.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited November 2023
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Without a PVP toggle the game wont be profitable.. Nobody will be playing it at max a year after launch. Not a chance.

    just don't worry about it, you won't be playing anyways,

    surely you are right and games like EVE online with its 20 years of lifespan being a successful game with full loot and forced pvp isn't a thing
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  • Lynexia wrote: »
    Nova_terra wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Multiple characters.
    You could in theory have the dishonor be account bound but then people will just have 2 accounts.
    People will just have a character that is perma red just to gank whoever they want.... It will completely nullify the entire dishonor system... The game will be dead in 6 months without the ability to completely toggle off all PVP.

    Corruption is a spectrum where the more you kill people, eventually it starts affecting your stats to the point where you will be ineffective. So unless you are advocating that someone will buy a new account/make a new character every single time to level them up to then never use them again because Corruption doesn't go away on it's own. So I think you will come to find that this specific idea isn't how the game will work. However, I am sure players will find a way to abuse it.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption

    Until you realise that you can just get friends to kill you a couple of times... to remove corruption then go straight back to killing anyone you like... Yeah can't see that system being abused at all. People talk about the corruption system like it has no flaws but it's just not going to work.

    Similar to what Liniker said, and I even said in my own post.. I am sure there are ways we will learn people are exploiting it and ways IS will address it but I can't really imagine killing a bunch of people and upping your corruption to then have your friends beat you down for a bit to lower your corruption and put you in XP debt that will need to be worked off is a fun loop? I guess it depends on the time table IS uses in terms of death = xp deficit x grind time, but 10 minutes of fun for X amount of down time and gear decay etc just doesn't seem like it is going to be popular. But who knows.
  • @Lynexia if you want to think of something hilarious....

    most people think big streamers will have a difficult time in the game from griefers and stream sniping... but you know what? that may be true but some of those streamers also have viewership's much higher than the capacity of the server allowance by several times. They usually get fed money, gear and everything else plus an entourage following them around from several allied guilds and pugs. They probably wont have to run their own caravans, their followers and guilds can control a huge portion of the map.

    Put that into perspective lol doesn't really matter if the stream is delayed or not.

    If Intrepid wanted to put them on special servers, they could do that with a special invite/allowance list, but it still wouldn't change much because they could still log onto other servers off stream, different accounts but it would make for an interesting twitch event like new world did assuming it holds that much attention for them.

    We haven't even seen the capability of them having fully animated and textured models acting like players on stream yet either. We just saw them all blank and static. I'm still waiting for that reveal and performance showcase. Closest thing we got was the castle siege in an isolated section of the test server no where near 500 players.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Multiple characters.
    You could in theory have the dishonor be account bound but then people will just have 2 accounts.
    People will just have a character that is perma red just to gank whoever they want.... It will completely nullify the entire dishonor system... The game will be dead in 6 months without the ability to completely toggle off all PVP.

    You are correct. This is how it worked in L2 and furthermore, Ashes devs state multi-accounts are acceptable in Ashes. However, the corruption system in Ashes also has stat dampening dependant on red level so there would have to be a break in the killing sprees or the red toon will have to be so highly geared against the PvE players that the stat dampening is ill effective. I imagine the stat dampening will turn red players into a wet noodle after A2 though. Afterall, how much capability do you need to gank a group's healer who are mid-fight with elite mobs in an open dungeon?
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • Lynexia wrote: »
    Nova_terra wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Multiple characters.
    You could in theory have the dishonor be account bound but then people will just have 2 accounts.
    People will just have a character that is perma red just to gank whoever they want.... It will completely nullify the entire dishonor system... The game will be dead in 6 months without the ability to completely toggle off all PVP.

    Corruption is a spectrum where the more you kill people, eventually it starts affecting your stats to the point where you will be ineffective. So unless you are advocating that someone will buy a new account/make a new character every single time to level them up to then never use them again because Corruption doesn't go away on it's own. So I think you will come to find that this specific idea isn't how the game will work. However, I am sure players will find a way to abuse it.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption

    Until you realise that you can just get friends to kill you a couple of times... to remove corruption then go straight back to killing anyone you like... Yeah can't see that system being abused at all. People talk about the corruption system like it has no flaws but it's just not going to work.

    Thing is that dying makes you lose durability on gear. Repairing gear can be balanced so that you will not get enough of resources back when killing randoms. The only way to be profitable should be if the corrupt player tries to survive and clean corruption.
  • Raven016 wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Nova_terra wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Multiple characters.
    You could in theory have the dishonor be account bound but then people will just have 2 accounts.
    People will just have a character that is perma red just to gank whoever they want.... It will completely nullify the entire dishonor system... The game will be dead in 6 months without the ability to completely toggle off all PVP.

    Corruption is a spectrum where the more you kill people, eventually it starts affecting your stats to the point where you will be ineffective. So unless you are advocating that someone will buy a new account/make a new character every single time to level them up to then never use them again because Corruption doesn't go away on it's own. So I think you will come to find that this specific idea isn't how the game will work. However, I am sure players will find a way to abuse it.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption

    Until you realise that you can just get friends to kill you a couple of times... to remove corruption then go straight back to killing anyone you like... Yeah can't see that system being abused at all. People talk about the corruption system like it has no flaws but it's just not going to work.

    Thing is that dying makes you lose durability on gear. Repairing gear can be balanced so that you will not get enough of resources back when killing randoms. The only way to be profitable should be if the corrupt player tries to survive and clean corruption.

    i mean yeah but you could also just farm gold and crafting mats to repair too. it's not the end of the world if you're someone who can afford it.
  • That's part of the gameplay. Unless you can remove gear while being red and avoid all durability loss, you have:
    - experience debt
    - stat damp
    - repair costs

    My largest issue with the PvP system right now is that farmers are almost required to PvP. Some people think that farming will be a "casuals job", but I have a hard time seeing this.
    If you're carrying lots of materials not fighting back is a terrible decision, time wise and material wise. If you fight back you lose less time, less mats but are a target for another day.
    Or you need to keep coming back to the node every 10 minutes to make sure you don't carry much.
  • When you're Red as a player a few things happen:
    • Your stats are dampened
    • You can't enter towns as the NPCs will attack you on sight
    • You can't use a variety of services
    • You can't trade with other players
    • Anyone that was in a group with you when you turned Red, also turns Red

    When you die as a Red player a few things happen:
    • You lose XP (might even de-level though that's up to testing)
    • You lose durability on gear
    • You lose part of your materials
    • You can lose some of your gear (corruption level varying and testing required)


    So even if you unequip some of your gear to avoid a durability loss, you may still drop that one cool sword you ground (grinded?) for so many hours. And yeah, some friend could pick it up, but so could anyone else, since attacking and killing Red players doesn't incur corruption.
    So yes, you could theoretically make it easier for yourself to cheat your way out of some of the penalties for going red. However, you're taking a huge gamble. Who knows? Maybe your trusted buddy suddenly refuses to hand you back a piece of gear, and unfortunately you're now too low level or weak to fight him for it.
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    That’s what they said about New World and the game was harmed in the process.

    If you don’t want to the terms and conditions of the services rendered then don’t play the respective game.
  • Asgerr wrote: »
    When you're Red as a player a few things happen:
    • Your stats are dampened
    • You can't enter towns as the NPCs will attack you on sight
    • You can't use a variety of services
    • You can't trade with other players
    • Anyone that was in a group with you when you turned Red, also turns Red

    When you die as a Red player a few things happen:
    • You lose XP (might even de-level though that's up to testing)
    • You lose durability on gear
    • You lose part of your materials
    • You can lose some of your gear (corruption level varying and testing required)


    So even if you unequip some of your gear to avoid a durability loss, you may still drop that one cool sword you ground (grinded?) for so many hours. And yeah, some friend could pick it up, but so could anyone else, since attacking and killing Red players doesn't incur corruption.
    So yes, you could theoretically make it easier for yourself to cheat your way out of some of the penalties for going red. However, you're taking a huge gamble. Who knows? Maybe your trusted buddy suddenly refuses to hand you back a piece of gear, and unfortunately you're now too low level or weak to fight him for it.

    @Asgerr

    We don't have deleveling, instead what we have is experience debt. Now the more experience debt you accrue, the greater the detriment to your character; not to the point where you can not get out of the debt. There will always be a way forward to remove your debt.[86] – Steven Sharif


    Item durability loss occurs on death.[3][1][4]

    That means a red player gets durability loss on gear only if he dies.
    Players who support red players just become flagged not red. But they can be in the same group and if they do not support him, can even remain green.

    There is no indication that a red will not be able to swap gear.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Gear#Swapping_gear
  • Raven016 wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Nova_terra wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Multiple characters.
    You could in theory have the dishonor be account bound but then people will just have 2 accounts.
    People will just have a character that is perma red just to gank whoever they want.... It will completely nullify the entire dishonor system... The game will be dead in 6 months without the ability to completely toggle off all PVP.

    Corruption is a spectrum where the more you kill people, eventually it starts affecting your stats to the point where you will be ineffective. So unless you are advocating that someone will buy a new account/make a new character every single time to level them up to then never use them again because Corruption doesn't go away on it's own. So I think you will come to find that this specific idea isn't how the game will work. However, I am sure players will find a way to abuse it.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption

    Until you realise that you can just get friends to kill you a couple of times... to remove corruption then go straight back to killing anyone you like... Yeah can't see that system being abused at all. People talk about the corruption system like it has no flaws but it's just not going to work.

    Thing is that dying makes you lose durability on gear. Repairing gear can be balanced so that you will not get enough of resources back when killing randoms. The only way to be profitable should be if the corrupt player tries to survive and clean corruption.

    i mean yeah but you could also just farm gold and crafting mats to repair too. it's not the end of the world if you're someone who can afford it.

    I think it will not be practical to kill many green players. But it will be possible to kill 2-3 greens without being in big trouble.
  • @Lynexia @Enigmatic Sage Are WoW PvE players trying to turn another game into a WoW clone and remove pvp lmao.

    They out here being like you won't get my money unless no owPvP. Many more like them are soon to come yelling turn pvp off. Thankfully the devs know the large amount of people that want a mmorpg with PvP and aren't yelling on the forums but just waiting for an actual good mmorpg to come out that also isn't filled with p2w.
  • KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I completely disagree with your perspective here. The game dying in 6 months because there is no way to completely turn off pvp is kind of a ridiculous thing to suggest.

    To assume the vast majority of players will manipulate the system in ways that are simply ridiculous is equally as ridiculous.

    Multiple accounts to further gank? No.

    Having friends waste their time killing you just so you can go gank more, No.

    Not profitable? The hype behind this game has probably already made it profitable and when that monthly sub kicks in, the development updates will flow steadily.

    I think you are heavily overthinking how the game will be played and you are trying to project your own wants/needs in an mmo. Also, I hate when people say "well don't play ashes, it's not for everyone". I think it will be for everyone and will encompass what mmos should have done years ago. Be there with us on launch day and if you have pvp problems, hit me up : ). Happy to murder in the name of Justice.
  • Khronus wrote: »
    I completely disagree with your perspective here. The game dying in 6 months because there is no way to completely turn off pvp is kind of a ridiculous thing to suggest.

    To assume the vast majority of players will manipulate the system in ways that are simply ridiculous is equally as ridiculous.

    Multiple accounts to further gank? No.

    Having friends waste their time killing you just so you can go gank more, No.

    Not profitable? The hype behind this game has probably already made it profitable and when that monthly sub kicks in, the development updates will flow steadily.

    I think you are heavily overthinking how the game will be played and you are trying to project your own wants/needs in an mmo. Also, I hate when people say "well don't play ashes, it's not for everyone". I think it will be for everyone and will encompass what mmos should have done years ago. Be there with us on launch day and if you have pvp problems, hit me up : ). Happy to murder in the name of Justice.

    It is just that people want to use the biggest buzz words they can and say they can't make money or dead on arrival to fear monger with their own self logic.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Good thing you came along after years of similar posts to raise the same uninformed fears.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    edited November 2023
    @Dolyem - we get a chip for top 5 post-monthly update bingo.

    @Lynexia, this has been discussed for years since kickstarter. So, relax - you didn’t uncover some novel assertion.

    Keep in mind the corruption system hasn’t been tested - hell, it hasn’t even been demoed. So, it’s mostly still a concept. Yes, there are gaps - of course there are. Aaaand that’s exactly what alpha testing is for. I’m confident we as a broad testing community will come up with all sorts of creative ways to break the system. The outcome being a system that’s relatively solid (not perfect, but solid).

    So, pull up a chair, grab a beer, and help make Ashes better.


    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • edited November 2023
    Raven016 wrote: »
    Raven016 wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Nova_terra wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Multiple characters.
    You could in theory have the dishonor be account bound but then people will just have 2 accounts.
    People will just have a character that is perma red just to gank whoever they want.... It will completely nullify the entire dishonor system... The game will be dead in 6 months without the ability to completely toggle off all PVP.

    Corruption is a spectrum where the more you kill people, eventually it starts affecting your stats to the point where you will be ineffective. So unless you are advocating that someone will buy a new account/make a new character every single time to level them up to then never use them again because Corruption doesn't go away on it's own. So I think you will come to find that this specific idea isn't how the game will work. However, I am sure players will find a way to abuse it.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption

    Until you realise that you can just get friends to kill you a couple of times... to remove corruption then go straight back to killing anyone you like... Yeah can't see that system being abused at all. People talk about the corruption system like it has no flaws but it's just not going to work.

    Thing is that dying makes you lose durability on gear. Repairing gear can be balanced so that you will not get enough of resources back when killing randoms. The only way to be profitable should be if the corrupt player tries to survive and clean corruption.

    i mean yeah but you could also just farm gold and crafting mats to repair too. it's not the end of the world if you're someone who can afford it.

    I think it will not be practical to kill many green players. But it will be possible to kill 2-3 greens without being in big trouble.

    it's expected tbh. Get a few free kills, work it off through quests and what not... oh no lol
  • "A NEW NEVER-BEFORE-SEEN EXPLOIT! DEVS HATE IT! CLICK HERE TO UNCOVER ITS SECRETS"

    Classic thread :)
  • CROW3 wrote: »
    @Dolyem - we get a chip for top 5 post-monthly update bingo.

    @Lynexia, this has been discussed for years since kickstarter. So, relax - you didn’t uncover some novel assertion.

    Keep in mind the corruption system hasn’t been tested - hell, it hasn’t even been demoed. So, it’s mostly still a concept. Yes, there are gaps - of course there are. Aaaand that’s exactly what alpha testing is for. I’m confident we as a broad testing community will come up with all sorts of creative ways to break the system. The outcome being a system that’s relatively solid (not perfect, but solid).

    So, pull up a chair, grab a beer, and help make Ashes better.


    @Dolyem come back
  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member
    edited November 2023
    Good thing you came along after years of similar posts to raise the same uninformed fears.

    ... but hasn't returned all day since the OP and a couple of replies.

    Maybe it's sinking in now ... that "ah-ha" moment ...

    :D
  • You wrote this thread without at all learning about the corruption system
    How about got do some research and then come back
    rvid9f6vp7vl.png
  • I'm sorry Pantheon development is dead, I know that's a huge blow, and your looking for the next game to wait for. This one probably isn't it for you.
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