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PVP Flagging system wont work because of one single issue

124

Comments

  • Neurath wrote: »
    PvP demographic is generally more niche than PvE demographic across many genre's and especially mmorpg's.

    My point is she wants a pvp toggle which hasn't boosted albion also nw has a toggle and no one toggles for pvp until max level now after scaling in pvp was removed.

    it seems to be a trend. I usually dont waste my time on PvP in games with toggles or PvE games with PvP features. Who would want to play a PvE game for its PvP... especially when they killed off the pvp dynamic by making it an option lol
  • Lynexia wrote: »
    Multiple characters.
    You could in theory have the dishonor be account bound but then people will just have 2 accounts.
    People will just have a character that is perma red just to gank whoever they want.... It will completely nullify the entire dishonor system... The game will be dead in 6 months without the ability to completely toggle off all PVP.

    The fact that you won't play the game means it works as intended
  • TaerrikTaerrik Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Hasnt this point been addressed over the many years of development? I think, you should take 30 seconds of your life to look at the wiki, before blasting the forums with uninformed opinions.

    The only way ganking will work to be worth it risk vs reward wise, is for gankers to run around in a squad. To much chance if someone goes to gank alone that the solo ganker will just die. This is a game where pvp is a part of life, everyone will be competent enough to fight back, the ganker wont risk the 50-50 chance of losing the 1v1. The only assured way to win is with numbers.

    All of the people in the party of gankers will have to deal with corruption equally now. Its not split corruption, they all get it.

    Corrupted players are LITERALLY screwed when they go red.
    Can't go in towns,
    Cant trade with others. (So they cant have their friends kill them and give them their gear back)
    Corrupted players locations are REVEALED on the world map to bounty hunters. They cant hide.
    Corrupted players can't even use their personal storage, so no running home to deposit items.
    You die, you drop stuff.
    Your stats against other players start taking a stacking negative penalty.
    Your penalty from death is much more as red player than normal.

    Basically, when you go red, you are a NPC. All you can do is fight other NPC or other players, the rest of the game is hostile to you. Intrepid want populated servers, all of these penalties will be tuned more or less to discourage random pvp for no reason.
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  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited November 2023
    we really need to stop feeding these trolls this is probably an alt account of one of the regulars in the PvP topic 🤦🏻‍♂️ account made 2 days ago,

    really hope some shiny new pve MMO comes out soon to keem them busy,
    img]
    Recrutamento aberto - Nosso Site: Clique aqui
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Taerrik wrote: »
    All of the people in the party of gankers will have to deal with corruption equally now. Its not split corruption, they all get it.
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  • TaerrikTaerrik Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Taerrik wrote: »
    All of the people in the party of gankers will have to deal with corruption equally now. Its not split corruption, they all get it.
    8wwnge74nd93.gif

    Trying to find the quote.
    But in essence, it was.
    If one person ganks one person, that person gets 100 corruption. (arbitrary number for example)

    If two people gank one person, they both get 100 corruption, not 50 each. They all get it, its not split.

    So, everyone in the party is punished equally for ganking.
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  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Even BDO does better

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    lol cute, 99% of eso players don't launch through steam kekw

    No they don't lmao. Love you are making up numbers guess ill do the same 99.9% of people on BDO play on launcher ;o. Seems like more people play on a pvp mmo with bad pve over ESO ^_-
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Taerrik wrote: »
    Trying to find the quote.
    But in essence, it was.
    If one person ganks one person, that person gets 100 corruption. (arbitrary number for example)

    If two people gank one person, they both get 100 corruption, not 50 each. They all get it, its not split.

    So, everyone in the party is punished equally for ganking.
    Go find it, because I'm 99% this is not true right now.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited November 2023
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    I'm still confused by what the single issue is, because, a lot of issues have been discussed and debunked.

    The issue is that OP got bored and needed something to do for the last few hours.

    you are right about the boredom but my concerns are real. AoC is gonna tank and it makes me sad

    It is going to, after a year, perhaps 18 months.

    That isn't because of the corruption system though. The games PvP is what will make it quite popular at release.
  • TaerrikTaerrik Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited November 2023
    Gave up looking for things, dont like rewatching stuff for too long either.

    But in essence, it just means if I run around with 20 people, I can gank 20 people and only get the same corruption as in the case if I was alone and ganked 1 person,

    Which is not intended, I should get the corruption equivalent for if I killed 20 people. Which is what I was stating is how it works.
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Taerrik wrote: »
    Gave up looking for things, dont like rewatching stuff for too long either.

    But in essence, it just means if I run around with 20 people, I can gank 20 people and only get the same corruption as in the case if I was alone and ganked 1 person,

    Which is not intended, I should get the corruption equivalent for if I killed 20 people. Which is what I was stating is how it works.
    Nah, you stated a different thing. What you're talking about is each of your 20 people PKing a single person. That is not shared corruption or anything of the sort. It's the same "the killing blow gets the corruption".

    Which is why I said that your statement was incorrect. And the current design is the intended way for how this system works. You can dislike that design and give your feedback about that, but it is the intention.
  • edited November 2023
    @Taerrik it does sound familiar (the 100 not splitting 50-50) I do feel like I saw that recently in youtube video with steven talking about it.

    The corruption is not intended to be equally shared/diluted between all party members. Your actions are essentially yours and whomever decides to join in.

    The non-combatant flagging is essentially to deter combatant groups/raids from interfering with non-combatant groups/raids. The trade off is death penalties essentially.

    Non-forced attacks, including AoE and status effects, will not hit non-combatant players.

    Even if the two raids get into a fight, the corruption may not be a 1:1 ratio raid wide as you will need to focus kill for corruption to apply and not aoe.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging

    check out the death penalties for each flagging situation as well. There is a trade off if you expect to die a lot vs not dying a lot.
  • TaerrikTaerrik Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Taerrik wrote: »
    Gave up looking for things, dont like rewatching stuff for too long either.

    But in essence, it just means if I run around with 20 people, I can gank 20 people and only get the same corruption as in the case if I was alone and ganked 1 person,

    Which is not intended, I should get the corruption equivalent for if I killed 20 people. Which is what I was stating is how it works.
    Nah, you stated a different thing. What you're talking about is each of your 20 people PKing a single person. That is not shared corruption or anything of the sort. It's the same "the killing blow gets the corruption".

    Which is why I said that your statement was incorrect. And the current design is the intended way for how this system works. You can dislike that design and give your feedback about that, but it is the intention.

    What I am talking about, is if you participate in player killing, the corruption is not diluted in any way just because you are with more people. As sage is better with words than me, you can just read what he said, since that is exactly what I am talking about.

    If you think it is intended to be diluted, help me out by finding the quote, some people are stronger with the google than others, maybe thats you.
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Taerrik wrote: »
    What I am talking about, is if you participate in player killing, the corruption is not diluted in any way just because you are with more people. As sage is better with words than me, you can just read what he said, since that is exactly what I am talking about.

    If you think it is intended to be diluted, help me out by finding the quote, some people are stronger with the google than others, maybe thats you.
    Sage said the same thing I'm saying.

    If you PK a player solo you get, say, 100 corruption. If you're in a party with 8 other people and kill that player - you get 100 corruption and no one in the party gets any. If your entire party hits that player, but you're the one taking the killing shot - you get 100 and your mates get nothing.

    This is the "corruption doesn't dilute in parties". I dunno what Sage was talking about in his first sentence, so if any of yall find a quote for that, that'd be great.
  • edited November 2023
    @NiKr i've heard it somewhere before, it does sound familiar lol. It could've been one of Stevens more "unique" replies he sometimes makes.

    I want to say it's as simple as whoever gets the kill shot gets the corruption but if someone does 90% the damage and someone does 10% that doesn't seem right to me. But I could be wrong. I just think the corruption doesn't take effect until the kill is what they may have meant.
  • Raven016Raven016 Member
    edited November 2023
    Taerrik wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Taerrik wrote: »
    Gave up looking for things, dont like rewatching stuff for too long either.

    But in essence, it just means if I run around with 20 people, I can gank 20 people and only get the same corruption as in the case if I was alone and ganked 1 person,

    Which is not intended, I should get the corruption equivalent for if I killed 20 people. Which is what I was stating is how it works.
    Nah, you stated a different thing. What you're talking about is each of your 20 people PKing a single person. That is not shared corruption or anything of the sort. It's the same "the killing blow gets the corruption".

    Which is why I said that your statement was incorrect. And the current design is the intended way for how this system works. You can dislike that design and give your feedback about that, but it is the intention.

    What I am talking about, is if you participate in player killing, the corruption is not diluted in any way just because you are with more people. As sage is better with words than me, you can just read what he said, since that is exactly what I am talking about.

    If you think it is intended to be diluted, help me out by finding the quote, some people are stronger with the google than others, maybe thats you.

    There was this wrong statement before in this thread:
    Asgerr wrote: »
    When you're Red as a player a few things happen:
    • Anyone that was in a group with you when you turned Red, also turns Red
    the diagram shows that only if you kill a green player you become red

    0rcnleebfgsw.png

    If somebody in your group was hitting both green and purple opponents and was being hit by the purple and by NPCs, you as a healer you would heal him and you would become purple too. Once your group member kills the green, he will be red.

    After he became red, if you wait you will go back to green. If you heal him later you become purple again.

    Non-combatants who heal, buff, or otherwise interact with combatants or corrupted players will be flagged as combatants.[12][28][29][30]
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    I want to say it's as simple as whoever gets the kill shot gets the corruption but if someone does 90% the damage and someone does 10% that doesn't seem right to me. But I could be wrong. I just think the corruption doesn't take effect until the kill is what they may have meant.
    You can do a single point of damage out of the target's 10k hp, but if that single point was the killing one - you get all the corruption.

    That's the current system.
  • edited November 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    I want to say it's as simple as whoever gets the kill shot gets the corruption but if someone does 90% the damage and someone does 10% that doesn't seem right to me. But I could be wrong. I just think the corruption doesn't take effect until the kill is what they may have meant.
    You can do a single point of damage out of the target's 10k hp, but if that single point was the killing one - you get all the corruption.

    That's the current system.

    yeah that is what the wiki suggests, It seems wrong to me logically though. Could be due to various reasons like systems and tracking not implemented or lack of implementation goals. Technically yes, it's not corruption until someone dies regardless if they only contributed 10% of the damage and got the kill shot.

    Technically you could just do a bunch of dmg and let the boss wipe them lol
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    yeah that is what the wiki suggests, It seems wrong to me logically though. Could be due to various reasons like systems and tracking not implemented or lack of implementation goals. Technically yes, it's not corruption until someone dies regardless if they only contributed 10% of the damage and got the kill shot.

    Technically you could just do a bunch of dmg and let the boss wipe them lol
    I do think this will get changed because people will whine and complain for the exact reasons you feel this system is weird.

    But this is how it worked in L2 and Steven just yoinked that to Ashes.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The reason its the last hit and not the amount of damage done is because of PvE mobs and gankers. If a player gets the last hit from a plink then corruption belongs to the player. Rather than the player plinking for the mob to get the last hit.
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  • edited November 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    yeah that is what the wiki suggests, It seems wrong to me logically though. Could be due to various reasons like systems and tracking not implemented or lack of implementation goals. Technically yes, it's not corruption until someone dies regardless if they only contributed 10% of the damage and got the kill shot.

    Technically you could just do a bunch of dmg and let the boss wipe them lol
    I do think this will get changed because people will whine and complain for the exact reasons you feel this system is weird.

    But this is how it worked in L2 and Steven just yoinked that to Ashes.

    That is true unfortunately lol.

    It kind of defeats the purpose of the system and can encourage more griefing to non-combatants due to death penalties currently so why wouldn't they just want to flag as combatant then and if thats the case, why even have the system when you could establish laws to nodes and citizenships. But... even that could get messy with safe zones and citizens. :smile:
  • TaerrikTaerrik Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    That's not at all what I understood from the everyone gets flagged part, when I heard that I interpreted it as everyone gets the penalty from the kill. But seems a legit interpretation to only last hit.

    In which case, last hit only lets me game the system to reduce corruption on myself.
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Taerrik wrote: »
    That's not at all what I understood from the everyone gets flagged part, when I heard that I interpreted it as everyone gets the penalty from the kill. But seems a legit interpretation to only last hit.

    In which case, last hit only lets me game the system to reduce corruption on myself.
    Flagged =/= PKer. You only become red if you were the one who landed the killing blow.

    And yes, playing around with the system is intended. If you managed to avoid getting corruption by the mob killing your victim or mb someone else landing the killing blow instead of you - that's your skill showing, because you won't know precise hp values of your targets.

    Though I do hope Steven removes the nameplate decay feature, cause I see no point in it, rather than making this avoidance easier.
  • edited November 2023
    @NiKr decay feature? as in nameplate within distance being visible vs being able to see them across the map with no distance issues?

    I think a lot of the flagging systems problems stem around how the open world pvp is more focused around events with attacker and defender participant status as well. Sure we can freely go out and pvp anywhere but the POI things like caravans and sieges are using the flagging system to protect participants to some extent from outside interference and zerging issues assuming they dont keep the every group for themselves mentality.

    Hypothetically, you could have corruption as a big player still even with the node anti-pvp law within city limits for all and a corruption increase if killing citizens of same node in open world or to some regards within ZOI.

    This is of course if they don't adjust the person whom gets the kill shot acquires the sole corruption penalty.

    anyways, hopefully they revisit the non-combatant griefing potential. I dont really see it as a skill thing. It's like kiting a non-chained world boss into a city equivalent in my opinion lol but I do get the perception of it. It's still applicable through combatant status as well so.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    decay feature? as in nameplate within distance being visible vs being able to see them across the map with no distance issues?
    The character's nameplate will deteriorate to give an indication of how much damage they have taken.[6][7][8]
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Nameplate
  • edited November 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    decay feature? as in nameplate within distance being visible vs being able to see them across the map with no distance issues?
    The character's nameplate will deteriorate to give an indication of how much damage they have taken.[6][7][8]
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Nameplate

    oh, that's a bit weird. Deteriorate makes more sense than decay as it made it sound like a visual distance thing to me.

    I guess if they're not aiming for a health bar/resource above the character then you judge by the deterioration of the name plate?
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    I guess if they're not aiming for a health bar/resource above the character then you judge by the deterioration of the name plate?
    You use your big hits to bring them down to the lowest stage of decay (deterioration is too fucking long to type) and then let the mobs hit them, while you throw some weakest hits in-between.

    This is why I said this would require skill (on top of general knowledge of the game). And if you don't see those decay stages at all then it would require even more skill to avoid corruption. At which point the risk on the side of the attacker shoots waaay up.

    L2 didn't have any indicators of target's hp, so I don't really know why Steven decided to add it.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    I guess if they're not aiming for a health bar/resource above the character then you judge by the deterioration of the name plate?
    You use your big hits to bring them down to the lowest stage of decay (deterioration is too fucking long to type) and then let the mobs hit them, while you throw some weakest hits in-between.

    This is why I said this would require skill (on top of general knowledge of the game). And if you don't see those decay stages at all then it would require even more skill to avoid corruption. At which point the risk on the side of the attacker shoots waaay up.

    L2 didn't have any indicators of target's hp, so I don't really know why Steven decided to add it.


    I suppose it's a skill :smile: Essentially the same thing as a health bar, just a name plate instead as the visual indicator of targets health metric lol
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Essentially the same thing as a health bar, just a name plate instead as the visual indicator of targets health metric lol
    It's more vague because you get approximations of hp instead of precise values, but yes, still a bar that you can track and make use of when PKing. Definitely hope it goes away.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Essentially the same thing as a health bar, just a name plate instead as the visual indicator of targets health metric lol
    It's more vague because you get approximations of hp instead of precise values, but yes, still a bar that you can track and make use of when PKing. Definitely hope it goes away.

    Funny part is, you can just follow them around and keep hitting them and stopping when it fades past a threshold regardless of hp bar lol.

    That is pvp though :smile:

    They could essentially have corruption as a metric based on damage to non-combatant flagged players as an overall thing and not directly to current target. So even if you go around griefing you can still acquire corruption slowly over time and much more for the kill shot.
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