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PVP Flagging system wont work because of one single issue

245

Comments

  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    You're arguing with someone with a day old account, 4 posts and 0 likes.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • Liniker wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Without a PVP toggle the game wont be profitable.. Nobody will be playing it at max a year after launch. Not a chance.

    just don't worry about it, you won't be playing anyways,

    surely you are right and games like EVE online with its 20 years of lifespan being a successful game with full loot and forced pvp isn't a thing

    I think Ashes of creation devs are aiming a little higher than 1,000 - 3,000 concurrent players after spending millions on development lol.
  • Pyrolol wrote: »
    You wrote this thread without at all learning about the corruption system
    How about got do some research and then come back

    It's so funny that people assume the system will be infallible. Nothing is, there will be an exploit in some form or another that will allow players to indiscriminately gank people. Something even a child could see.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Lynexia wrote: »
    there will be an exploit in some form or another that will allow players to indiscriminately gank people. Something even a child could see.
    That's one way to reveal that you're a child :) We're all adults here, which is why we obviously didn't see this super obvious problem B)
  • CROW3 wrote: »
    @Dolyem - we get a chip for top 5 post-monthly update bingo.

    @Lynexia, this has been discussed for years since kickstarter. So, relax - you didn’t uncover some novel assertion.

    Keep in mind the corruption system hasn’t been tested - hell, it hasn’t even been demoed. So, it’s mostly still a concept. Yes, there are gaps - of course there are. Aaaand that’s exactly what alpha testing is for. I’m confident we as a broad testing community will come up with all sorts of creative ways to break the system. The outcome being a system that’s relatively solid (not perfect, but solid).

    So, pull up a chair, grab a beer, and help make Ashes better.


    Well I hate to say it but the game you're so looking forward to will die soon after launch. There's no reason it can't be a long running MMO but not with always on PVP that punishes people who don't want to participate more than people who grief.

    I think everyone forgets that people don't care, people don't think about consequences before they take action and the ones that do always have a plan to mitigate. So maybe I wont be camped but it's exceedingly likely that people will do opportunistic ganking even if they don't even normally engage much in PVP.

    This has been seen on many other games and while it's worse on games that do not punish the behavior, it still happens on games that do.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    there will be an exploit in some form or another that will allow players to indiscriminately gank people. Something even a child could see.
    That's one way to reveal that you're a child :) We're all adults here, which is why we obviously didn't see this super obvious problem B)

    I mean... Enjoy being ganked a bunch.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Lynexia wrote: »
    There's no reason it can't be a long running MMO but not with always on PVP
    There is a reason. The dude who paid for this game to be made doesn't want that :)
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Lynexia wrote: »
    I mean... Enjoy being ganked a bunch.
    I do enjoy that, because I've enjoyed an mmo with this design for 12 years.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Until you realise that you can just get friends to kill you a couple of times... .

    If only we had have thought of this very basic point in the 7 or so years of discussion on this game that we have had in this community.

    That, believe it or nit, was sarcasm.

    If you gain corruption and have a friend kill you, you are still left with the bulk of the penalty of corruption - the massively increased experience debt.

    You will then need to spend more time working off the experience debt than you would have spent working off the corruption.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    There's no reason it can't be a long running MMO but not with always on PVP
    There is a reason. The dude who paid for this game to be made doesn't want that :)

    Steven Sharif, as far as I've been able to see has literally never even released a video game. That alone has been enough for me to not buy into this game yet. I highly doubt this will go anywhere if he doesn't listen to real feedback
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Until you realise that you can just get friends to kill you a couple of times... .

    If only we had have thought of this very basic point in the 7 or so years of discussion on this game that we have had in this community.

    That, believe it or nit, was sarcasm.

    If you gain corruption and have a friend kill you, you are still left with the bulk of the penalty of corruption - the massively increased experience debt.

    You will then need to spend more time working off the experience debt than you would have spent working off the corruption.

    People don't care... People who want to indiscriminately kill do not care. And if they ever start caring they'll just make a new character.... Oh well, you will all see once the game releases in 100 years.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Steven Sharif, as far as I've been able to see has literally never even released a video game. That alone has been enough for me to not buy into this game yet. I highly doubt this will go anywhere if he doesn't listen to real feedback
    So... You haven't bought into the game, yet you registered on its forums and started yelling about changing the game to the exact opposite of what all the people working on and people buying access to want?

    Do you consider yourself a white savior or smth? Except we're not hungry african children to be saved. The game will be niche and everyone involved in it know that. It won't be "2-3k players", because there's already over 100k people who've paid at least $250 to even just test it, yet alone play it.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Until you realise that you can just get friends to kill you a couple of times... .

    If only we had have thought of this very basic point in the 7 or so years of discussion on this game that we have had in this community.

    That, believe it or nit, was sarcasm.

    If you gain corruption and have a friend kill you, you are still left with the bulk of the penalty of corruption - the massively increased experience debt.

    You will then need to spend more time working off the experience debt than you would have spent working off the corruption.

    People don't care... People who want to indiscriminately kill do not care. And if they ever start caring they'll just make a new character.... Oh well, you will all see once the game releases in 100 years.

    All penalties in any MMO can be reduced down to a factor of time.

    If you decimate a character via corruption and just opt to create a new one, the time it takes to level up to the point you can PvP again is that penalty.

    Literally every possible avenue to get yourself back from corruption takes time. Thus every avenue is a penalty.

    This game has many, many issues. The corruption system isn't one of them.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Steven Sharif, as far as I've been able to see has literally never even released a video game. That alone has been enough for me to not buy into this game yet. I highly doubt this will go anywhere if he doesn't listen to real feedback
    So... You haven't bought into the game, yet you registered on its forums and started yelling about changing the game to the exact opposite of what all the people working on and people buying access to want?

    Do you consider yourself a white savior or smth? Except we're not hungry african children to be saved. The game will be niche and everyone involved in it know that. It won't be "2-3k players", because there's already over 100k people who've paid at least $250 to even just test it, yet alone play it.

    That's because people have more money than sense my friend. Feedback is an important part of any game development. I'd like the game to be good, I'm going to give my feedback about the system I believe will wreck the game because the more people do, the more likely it is to be altered in a meaningful way
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Until you realise that you can just get friends to kill you a couple of times... .

    If only we had have thought of this very basic point in the 7 or so years of discussion on this game that we have had in this community.

    That, believe it or nit, was sarcasm.

    If you gain corruption and have a friend kill you, you are still left with the bulk of the penalty of corruption - the massively increased experience debt.

    You will then need to spend more time working off the experience debt than you would have spent working off the corruption.

    People don't care... People who want to indiscriminately kill do not care. And if they ever start caring they'll just make a new character.... Oh well, you will all see once the game releases in 100 years.

    All penalties in any MMO can be reduced down to a factor of time.

    If you decimate a character via corruption and just opt to create a new one, the time it takes to level up to the point you can PvP again is that penalty.

    Literally every possible avenue to get yourself back from corruption takes time. Thus every avenue is a penalty.

    This game has many, many issues. The corruption system isn't one of them.

    The corruption system is the MAIN issue. Everything else in the game actually sounds pretty promising.. But the reality of this game is that it will thrive from population. The more people that are playing the better the game will be.

    I challenge you to name one MMO where always on PVP has worked... Specifically where you could never turn pvp off. The rules are simple for this task. The game has to be always on PVP at all times so games with PVE servers or PVP toggle do not count, as well as games where you can avoid parts of the game that have pvp and still have a reasonably good experience. The game has to have been active with over 7500 consistent concurrent players for over 5 years. And to top it off it must be the same level of quality that you have seen or expect to see from Ashes of Creation.

    I'll wait.

    I'll give you a hint, there isn't one. Not a single one.
    The closest you might get is Albion online but that still has a pretty chill PvE game as well and you don't HAVE to do pvp if you don't want to.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    Lynexia wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    @Dolyem - we get a chip for top 5 post-monthly update bingo.

    @Lynexia, this has been discussed for years since kickstarter. So, relax - you didn’t uncover some novel assertion.

    Keep in mind the corruption system hasn’t been tested - hell, it hasn’t even been demoed. So, it’s mostly still a concept. Yes, there are gaps - of course there are. Aaaand that’s exactly what alpha testing is for. I’m confident we as a broad testing community will come up with all sorts of creative ways to break the system. The outcome being a system that’s relatively solid (not perfect, but solid).

    So, pull up a chair, grab a beer, and help make Ashes better.


    Well I hate to say it but the game you're so looking forward to will die soon after launch. There's no reason it can't be a long running MMO but not with always on PVP that punishes people who don't want to participate more than people who grief.

    I think everyone forgets that people don't care, people don't think about consequences before they take action and the ones that do always have a plan to mitigate. So maybe I wont be camped but it's exceedingly likely that people will do opportunistic ganking even if they don't even normally engage much in PVP.

    This has been seen on many other games and while it's worse on games that do not punish the behavior, it still happens on games that do.

    Ok.

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Lynexia wrote: »
    I'd like the game to be good, I'm going to give my feedback about the system I believe will wreck the game because the more people do, the more likely it is to be altered in a meaningful way
    What's good for you is not good for others. And those others have been fighting for this exact system for years now. Usually against the people who come here with the same definition of "good" as yours. And we'll keep fighting, because there's barely any games with our definition of good, while there's a shitton with yours.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Lynexia wrote: »
    I challenge you to name one MMO where always on PVP has worked... Specifically where you could never turn pvp off. The rules are simple for this task. The game has to be always on PVP at all times so games with PVE servers or PVP toggle do not count, as well as games where you can avoid parts of the game that have pvp and still have a reasonably good experience. The game has to have been active with over 7500 consistent concurrent players for over 5 years. And to top it off it must be the same level of quality that you have seen or expect to see from Ashes of Creation.
    You should've set the bar higher.

    Lineage 2 has lived with this exact flagging system for almost 20 years now. its servers have more than 8k people, and that's just the official ones. Private servers are abundant beyond belief, each ranging from several hundred to a few thousand.

    I'd also say EVE, but you'll disregard it in the same weird way you did Albion here
    Lynexia wrote: »
    The closest you might get is Albion online but that still has a pretty chill PvE game as well and you don't HAVE to do pvp if you don't want to.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    I challenge you to name one MMO where always on PVP has worked... Specifically where you could never turn pvp off. The rules are simple for this task. The game has to be always on PVP at all times so games with PVE servers or PVP toggle do not count, as well as games where you can avoid parts of the game that have pvp and still have a reasonably good experience. The game has to have been active with over 7500 consistent concurrent players for over 5 years. And to top it off it must be the same level of quality that you have seen or expect to see from Ashes of Creation.
    You should've set the bar higher.

    Lineage 2 has lived with this exact flagging system for almost 20 years now. its servers have more than 8k people, and that's just the official ones. Private servers are abundant beyond belief, each ranging from several hundred to a few thousand.

    I'd also say EVE, but you'll disregard it in the same weird way you did Albion here
    Lynexia wrote: »
    The closest you might get is Albion online but that still has a pretty chill PvE game as well and you don't HAVE to do pvp if you don't want to.

    You pulled that number straight outta your ass lol. Current numbers lineage 2 seems like it can barely crack 3k players in a week. and eve online isn't even a game... it's just spreadsheets that have a pretty interface... It's also free these days which indicates that it's basically on life support at this point.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    PvP Servers always have PvP always on and they thrive. Granted, the PvE Servers pay the bills but to state always on PvP doesn't have an audience would be false.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    I challenge you to name one MMO where always on PVP has worked... Specifically where you could never turn pvp off. The rules are simple for this task. The game has to be always on PVP at all times so games with PVE servers or PVP toggle do not count, as well as games where you can avoid parts of the game that have pvp and still have a reasonably good experience. The game has to have been active with over 7500 consistent concurrent players for over 5 years. And to top it off it must be the same level of quality that you have seen or expect to see from Ashes of Creation.
    You should've set the bar higher.

    Lineage 2 has lived with this exact flagging system for almost 20 years now. its servers have more than 8k people, and that's just the official ones. Private servers are abundant beyond belief, each ranging from several hundred to a few thousand.

    I'd also say EVE, but you'll disregard it in the same weird way you did Albion here
    Lynexia wrote: »
    The closest you might get is Albion online but that still has a pretty chill PvE game as well and you don't HAVE to do pvp if you don't want to.

    Not sure I'd point to 2 practically dead games as a shining example of success.. Also I never tried Lineage 2 but based on a quick look, there's plenty that can be done without having to touch PVP so I'm thinking it doesn't even count... also... eve doesn't have pvp unless you're at end game levels of play because before that you're a fool if you leave high sec as a solo player.
  • Neurath wrote: »
    PvP Servers always have PvP always on and they thrive. Granted, the PvE Servers pay the bills but to state always on PvP doesn't have an audience would be false.

    That's kind of the point I'm getting at. I never said the game wouldn't have players. It just wont ever have enough to become a long lasting MMO unless these issues are addressed. There either needs to be an option to turn off pvp or the punishment for ganking needs to be significantly more severe... Such as corruption being account wide and not just tied to characters.

    The incentives for not ganking need to be better than the incentives for ganking and the current proposed system wont do that.. ganking will still be more benefit than leaving people alone.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Not sure I'd point to 2 practically dead games as a shining example of success.. Also I never tried Lineage 2 but based on a quick look, there's plenty that can be done without having to touch PVP so I'm thinking it doesn't even count.
    AoC's flagging system is the same as L2's, except the punishments for PKing are even higher here. So, even though I knew this already, I will consider this comment (and all others) as a complete troll and leave it to others to troll you back :)
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    PvP Servers always have PvP always on and they thrive. Granted, the PvE Servers pay the bills but to state always on PvP doesn't have an audience would be false.

    That's kind of the point I'm getting at. I never said the game wouldn't have players. It just wont ever have enough to become a long lasting MMO unless these issues are addressed. There either needs to be an option to turn off pvp or the punishment for ganking needs to be significantly more severe... Such as corruption being account wide and not just tied to characters.

    The incentives for not ganking need to be better than the incentives for ganking and the current proposed system wont do that.. ganking will still be more benefit than leaving people alone.

    I'm not certain of anything until I test the system. I'll have to go red in A2 of course. Can't test the system without going red. However, multi accounting is allowed and griefers and RMTers will happily have a whole account that's red because they farm on non red toons on protected accounts anyway.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 2023
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Steven Sharif, as far as I've been able to see has literally never even released a video game. That alone has been enough for me to not buy into this game yet.

    It's already been said in a reply, but it's worth mentioning again:

    Ashes of Creation won't be for everyone.

    If you dont enjoy the risk of PvP, the game may not be for you. Opt-in PvP isn't on the table ... and we saw what happened with New World when last-minute decisions are made and implemented.

    Intrepid is an independent game studio. There's no player population target that's a must-hit, no revenue goal that's out of reach, and no suits to report to.

    In other words, the devs can make the game however they want.

    Feedback from the community is wanted and appreciated ... but not feedback that tears down one of the core pillars of its game design. In this case, the risk versus reward pillar (which includes PvX gameplay).
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Not sure I'd point to 2 practically dead games as a shining example of success.. Also I never tried Lineage 2 but based on a quick look, there's plenty that can be done without having to touch PVP so I'm thinking it doesn't even count.
    AoC's flagging system is the same as L2's, except the punishments for PKing are even higher here. So, even though I knew this already, I will consider this comment (and all others) as a complete troll and leave it to others to troll you back :)

    you're cringe mate. I'm coming back here as the game declines to rub it in
    Neurath wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    PvP Servers always have PvP always on and they thrive. Granted, the PvE Servers pay the bills but to state always on PvP doesn't have an audience would be false.

    That's kind of the point I'm getting at. I never said the game wouldn't have players. It just wont ever have enough to become a long lasting MMO unless these issues are addressed. There either needs to be an option to turn off pvp or the punishment for ganking needs to be significantly more severe... Such as corruption being account wide and not just tied to characters.

    The incentives for not ganking need to be better than the incentives for ganking and the current proposed system wont do that.. ganking will still be more benefit than leaving people alone.

    I'm not certain of anything until I test the system. I'll have to go red in A2 of course. Can't test the system without going red. However, multi accounting is allowed and griefers and RMTers will happily have a whole account that's red because they farm on non red toons on protected accounts anyway.

    Exactly, I fear it will make the system redundant. Unless you can lose a level the experience penalty isn't going to matter. and people will just use their own alt accounts or friends to remove the red so they can gank. They probably wont even really play these PK characters outside of PVP so most penalties wont matter.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Lynexia wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Not sure I'd point to 2 practically dead games as a shining example of success.. Also I never tried Lineage 2 but based on a quick look, there's plenty that can be done without having to touch PVP so I'm thinking it doesn't even count.
    AoC's flagging system is the same as L2's, except the punishments for PKing are even higher here. So, even though I knew this already, I will consider this comment (and all others) as a complete troll and leave it to others to troll you back :)

    you're cringe mate. I'm coming back here as the game declines to rub it in
    Neurath wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    PvP Servers always have PvP always on and they thrive. Granted, the PvE Servers pay the bills but to state always on PvP doesn't have an audience would be false.

    That's kind of the point I'm getting at. I never said the game wouldn't have players. It just wont ever have enough to become a long lasting MMO unless these issues are addressed. There either needs to be an option to turn off pvp or the punishment for ganking needs to be significantly more severe... Such as corruption being account wide and not just tied to characters.

    The incentives for not ganking need to be better than the incentives for ganking and the current proposed system wont do that.. ganking will still be more benefit than leaving people alone.

    I'm not certain of anything until I test the system. I'll have to go red in A2 of course. Can't test the system without going red. However, multi accounting is allowed and griefers and RMTers will happily have a whole account that's red because they farm on non red toons on protected accounts anyway.

    Exactly, I fear it will make the system redundant. Unless you can lose a level the experience penalty isn't going to matter. and people will just use their own alt accounts or friends to remove the red so they can gank. They probably wont even really play these PK characters outside of PVP so most penalties wont matter.

    The penalties only relate to pvp and not pve except loot drops which a red toon doesn't need really.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • Lynexia wrote: »
    Steven Sharif, as far as I've been able to see has literally never even released a video game. That alone has been enough for me to not buy into this game yet.

    It's already been said in a reply, but it's worth mentioning again:

    Ashes of Creation won't be for everyone.

    If you dont enjoy the risk of PvP, the game may not be for you. Opt-in PvP isn't on the table ... and we saw what happened with New World when last-minute decisions are made and implemented.

    Intrepid is an independent game studio. There's no player population target that's a must-hit, no revenue goal that's out of reach, and no suits to report to.

    In other words, the devs can make the game however they want. Feedback from the community is wanted and appreciated ... but not feedback that tears down the risk versus reward pillar (which includes PvX gameplay).

    There is absolutely revenue and player count goals... The guy is still a business man, he's not going to keep an MMO online if it's hemorrhaging money. and what happened to new world only happened because they had an entire game based around pvp and tried to flip is last minute.

    Ashes of creation on the other hand is creating a world of mixed content, pvp and pve from the beginning and both play styles will be fun independently of each other. The issue is when you try to smoosh them together and for players into content they don't want to participate in.. It's no different than hardcore PVP players getting annoyed that their best item for PVP comes from high end PVE content that they don't enjoy.
  • Neurath wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Not sure I'd point to 2 practically dead games as a shining example of success.. Also I never tried Lineage 2 but based on a quick look, there's plenty that can be done without having to touch PVP so I'm thinking it doesn't even count.
    AoC's flagging system is the same as L2's, except the punishments for PKing are even higher here. So, even though I knew this already, I will consider this comment (and all others) as a complete troll and leave it to others to troll you back :)

    you're cringe mate. I'm coming back here as the game declines to rub it in
    Neurath wrote: »
    Lynexia wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    PvP Servers always have PvP always on and they thrive. Granted, the PvE Servers pay the bills but to state always on PvP doesn't have an audience would be false.

    That's kind of the point I'm getting at. I never said the game wouldn't have players. It just wont ever have enough to become a long lasting MMO unless these issues are addressed. There either needs to be an option to turn off pvp or the punishment for ganking needs to be significantly more severe... Such as corruption being account wide and not just tied to characters.

    The incentives for not ganking need to be better than the incentives for ganking and the current proposed system wont do that.. ganking will still be more benefit than leaving people alone.

    I'm not certain of anything until I test the system. I'll have to go red in A2 of course. Can't test the system without going red. However, multi accounting is allowed and griefers and RMTers will happily have a whole account that's red because they farm on non red toons on protected accounts anyway.

    Exactly, I fear it will make the system redundant. Unless you can lose a level the experience penalty isn't going to matter. and people will just use their own alt accounts or friends to remove the red so they can gank. They probably wont even really play these PK characters outside of PVP so most penalties wont matter.

    The penalties only relate to pvp and not pve except loot drops which a red toon doesn't need really.

    Yeah that makes it worse because then they don't even have to worry... just kill whoever and have your alt account help you remove corruption in a safe area....
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    I'm sorry Pantheon development is dead, I know that's a huge blow, and your looking for the next game to wait for. This one probably isn't it for you.

    Game is alive and kicking they are going the WoW direction with art
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