Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Yeah iam concern that they will forgot for action targeting! I hope that is not true, i really enjoy action combat in MMOS.
you could envisage that all bosses loot a fragment of token example 1/4.
these fragments would be tradable, and the player would have to collect 4 of them to proceed with the assembly.
What I like
The VFXs for the skills in general, but the AoEs in particular
The importance of mobility. Useful in and out of combat. As to be mindful when to use it as it is limided.
What I'm not sold on
Extra fast attacks. I'm not expecting a realistic bowman simulator, but this was a bit too much for my taste, to the point I could see myself not using the skill (or putting points in it) or any short bow out of simple stubborn alienation.
Concerned by, at least at first...
My main concern as I watched was about how most skills would translate for non-bow weapons. This was mentioned during the introduction and in the questions after the ranger update, so no panic, but no concrete answers either. But this was not the complete skill kit, and the ranger is a range dps primarily, so... understandable at this point. I don't see why Marks and Hunts wouldn't work for other weapons, even melee, but still... I hope it's not limited to this with basic attacks.
Minor suggestion
If it was me, I wouldn't limit the imbued arrows to a number of shots, I'd just make it a toggle to which type you're drawing.
Not related to the ranger archetype
I was kind of impressed by how far the mobs would be visible.
Loved the steering in the air strike skill and the knock back in the cone attack.
We need more of those !!!
I added the suggestion to add more steerable momentum and mobility to skills/weapons
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/58133/suggestion-add-more-mobility-and-animation-momentum/p1?new=1
To me, that makes the Cleric class feel less unique in its unique feature.
Wasn't a class I was excited before, but am now quite eager to test it out! Can't think of any improvement-suggestions, atm.
Same here but my concerns about this are also related to the gameplay.
Really liked most of the ideas shown but unfortunately I received the impression that the actual implementation of the ranger with such a high frequency of effects&damage hitting the enemy will lead to something like GuildWars2 where at any given time in combat there is so much going on that really tactical conscious acting and reacting becomes nearly impossible (eveyone seems to be jumping around like crazy and spamming everything at once.. at least how it felt to me).
I know that the classic-WoW Combat is from 20 years ago and can feel kind of slow but there is a kind of conscious decision making in every action and reaction I missed in games like GWII and BDO that sometimes feel like you are playing Street Fighter against your little brother who wins by pressing all buttons at once Oo
Edit:
Like to add one thought about the airstrike-ability, which I really liked. Maybe it should be split up into two abilities? One for the jump-part and one that is a shot that can only be activated during the jump-part?
I m pretty much on the some page. The frequency of arrows is not only reducing immersion but it affects playing as or against the ranger a lot. If you had not told so I would never have noticed that arrows change when using certain ammunition and I could barely tell any difference when you speced into more combos for autoattacks. This makes it really hard to know when a combo is finished or when to use defensive abilities. It mostly felt like a storm of arrows a lot of the time.
only thing I think would be nice if the omnidirectional disengage had different animations for the different directions to some degree. it was cool and I imagine it feeling fun, but going forward then backflipping forward was a little jarring. it's a minor tidbit but it stood out to me.
As a whole, it was great. The direction of the combat for the class and the mobility, freedom, animations, skills & choices etc.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Ranger archetype?
Being able to push the class to it's limits in PvP and PvE - best class btw.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Ranger Archetype Update?
I think as with majority, if not everyone, I was overly excited to see the update to Air Strike and the freedom within the skill. Before, it was easily telegraphed and felt overly slow for an ability that seemed intended to create distance or traverse around targets in a way. The freedom while in air to navigate how you land and the update to the animation/skill itself is purely amazing.
Scatter shot animation and ability to charge it for that focused AoE attack was very impressive. I really enjoyed seeing that.
Disengage having the versatility in how it's discharged via passive points is incredibly unique and an awesome addition to help facilitate player choice.
I'm not so sure how I feel about Hunts. For hunts to be a school of augmentation, I would expect a little more out of the skill itself at least for the Ranger specifically. As is, I feel like Mark of the Raven had a more interesting effect than Hunt of the Raven. Maybe that comes with doubling down on that augment school as a Ranger? However, those and marks/imbues being off of the GCD is amazing to see as well.
Thundering shot the effect is cool, I don't necessarily like the animation for it. Someone else had stated a similar opinion in that it looks more like a spell than a projectile from a bow. I'm not sure how that could be changed, but it would be nice to see.
My concern is the basic attack progression with the SB. The increase attack speed within the small passives and then additional arrow hits seem to create such a stream of fire that you can potentially get away with spamming your basic attack towards an opponent to win while ignoring your actual ability kit. What was shown was without specific gear, general buffs, food buffs, consumables etc that can further enhance a SB spam meta. This, in my opinion, takes away from the skill & skill ceiling that Ranger is supposed to have as a class.
I don't have issue with the combo length, just the additional arrows and the potential exponential attack speed stacking for it.
As far as balancing goes that I've seen multiple discussions around. In my opinion, it's all irrelevant when we only have a fraction of the picture intended and given the fact nobody has tested/played the class yet. Once we have the whole picture (all classes, all abilities and physically testing ourselves) only then can we really make informed remarks regarding balance.
Overall I hope to see more skills having the potential to change the way it's used like Scatter Shot. Giving players the ability to have more action oriented skill shots in a sense would be a great addition. I love the mobility of the class so far. As a Ranger main, I'm loving the direction the class is being taken.
Are there similar archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
The basic attack spam reminds me of AA. While I did not really play the game, I watched a decent amount of footage on it and for the short duration I checked it out, was immediately turned off by the spam basic attacks from the bow. It doesn't feel fun, it doesn't add skill to the class, it honestly takes away from it.
We could select skills we want to be in some group and assign menu to it. Then map some key bind to that menu. We could customize how we want the menu to open and how to trigger skills in it e.g.
- press menu key and move with mouse, when menu key released activate selected skill
- or you toggle menu by key and then you need to click with mouse
- etc just give players options how to use it
I like the idea of these skills of rangers but in case we have like 5 of them from each category, it is already 15 active skills that are basically relevant that you will have them in your build. How do you key bind 15 skills + all other active skills and be effective ...
With the circular menu you only need 3 keys and then move with mouse
Or you could do it like in hogwarts legacy that you switch skill bar with one key and all other keys will get basically rebind to new skills.
I thought it would be nice to have another option how to access skills that we don't usually see in mmo genre. Of course this could be used by anybody, in different context, not just the ranger.
If I imagine I have like 5 hour play session and constantly see just rain of arrows, I can see it being quite weird
Exemple of indicator>
Well at least they can set their blasters to stun.
Ranger seemed a little Starship Trooper-ish. If that’s the fantasy archer you want to go with.
If rapid fire is a thing, then the accuracy and impact of each shot needs to be reduced. Counterpoint is rewarding the stable archer who takes the measured shot (but needs to be a point in the draw where that also follows a law of diminishing returns).
Also need to balance it with an arrow inventory for economy of attacks. Reminded me of an 80s action flick where the dude’s 50 caliber machine gun never runs out of ammo. Perhaps these are just magic quivers of endless arrows?
For the short bow vs long bow comparison, simply put, the long bow is a full body weapon whereas the short bow is upper body. So mobility with the short bow makes sense, especially in the context of horse archer or skirmisher. Longbow is the big daddy, less effective on the run, but more likely to pack a punch at longer range, especially en masse. Probably magic arrows are penetrating that plate armor though.
I get it that in a video game of rock-paper-scissors the realistic accuracy of weapons is less important, and the average person is going to go with the stereotypes of movies and other media. And you want a fun class. Would be nice, however, for someone to find a way to do both. Guess that’s the challenge.
Overall, good step forward from the previous Ranger showcase. Will be nice to see how it compares or complements other classes.
this and target of target would be much appreciated for testing,
•CC break!
•The hunts are great. Idk why i like passives that do different things so fun but im happy to see this. The hunt of the raven, bear and tiger is really neat and makes the ranger feel special and more soulfull. Im happy that you guys changed this up and went with passive buff instead of you have to shoot them out or whatever it was before. Makes it so you can choose what kind of stance you go into based of the situation that you are in. Big plus!
•It seems like you guys have made the ranger have a good mix of channel, instant, and build up abilities, that's nice to see!
Disslikes
•I prefer the damage numbers to go straight up from the enemy and have a little icon show what ability did what damage. Reason why it should go straight up is to reduce clutter and make it easier to see what ability did what damage.
•Abilities for kiting? How does that work with ranger. Would of liked to see some more action on the run!
Overall feeling about combat
•As much as i like cc break and evades I do hope it's on long cooldown(around 60 sec) and i hope the overall battlefield is not going to be too zoomie with all the jumps and dodges. Hope it sticks to classes like rouge and ranger!
I thought the 'machine gunning' of arrows was a little arcadey. Perhaps slowing arrow release would be more believable. Also, as soon as you lose focus on your target, or they on you, the target lock should break, no click and hit please. Shooting arrows accurately should take a little skill.
Otherwise, the Ranger looked great.
So yeah I think the ranger looks pretty dam good after the update, with a few exceptions....
What comes to mind immediately in this regard is the trap. The trap was probably the most underwhelming ability shown, and that includes disengage, which is almost ubiquitous among ranger classes at this point. I think my first issues with them lies in the duration, 30 second duration doesn't exactly allow for planning and thus is excluding a possible gameplay avenue in longer term preparation. The second main issue I have with it is the there's no interactivity. The character just gets a very (very) small stop in their movement and they go on their way. I think my favorite implementation of traps was Wildstars rogue, where the trap would tether the character to a small area until they targeted it and broke the trap. Some sort of interaction between the affected target and the trap, or some further gameplay element seems missing, as it stands now the trap seems very "meh" from both ends. I'd like to see something like the above, as well as maybe being able to pre-apply a mark to the trap for an overcharged mark or as a way to get an extra one if the ability comes off cooldown before the trap is triggered.
The next thing that comes to mind is the grouped abilities, so Marks, Hunts, and Ammo types. Unsure how these are going to work, if you're going to have access to all the different grouped abilities at the same time or if you'll have to spec into each, but I would worry about ability count, and the ranger not feeling as nice as other classes due to either too many things having to be on your hotbars or a different flavor of the same ability being counted when considering the overall number of abilities a ranger would have access too. As for the actual abilities in these groups themselves I do like the effects and look forward to the resource interplay between Hunts and Marks.
Now for some more nit-picky things.
Not sure if this will feel different when playing vs. watching but the scatter shots short hop back, it didn't look like it felt too good to use. Unsure if I'd want it removed, given a longer distance, or have it be more an omni-directional thing like when you spec into disengage.
Like with the mage, the way the lightning effect appears with the storm arrow, doesn't look great. Don't know if it's an animation/timing thing or an effects thing but something seems off.
The jump shot, definitely needs a personal telegraph as your doing your jump, if you're going to allow the player to move about.
The wording on "next 10 shots" needs to be explicit in what it means. Whether it applies / stacks with abilities or whether it only means the basic combo.
I'm sure I'm missing some of the things I thought about while watching but these were the more prominent ones in my mind. Overall great job, and now I'm looking forward to seeing the Mage update.
i think the short bow speed and amount of arrows from the first ranger show case was close to perfection, imo make it shoot 3 arrows and a little slower and make the weapon tree add 1 more arrow , u can have more diverse and creative things for the weapon mastery skills
I'm pretty excited to see where Rangers (and overall ranged combat) are now, and it was a good way to end 2023. You guys now have two financial quarters & change to showcase the other archetypes so I have something worth shooting at in Alpha 2.
Big picture, the Ranger archetype is exactly the base-class I was hoping for to roam Verra. Zooming in, I want to figure out how to best connect the weapon tree, the class tree, the skill blends, and weapon selection so it *feels* intuitive in the wild.
A few things on the list:
- I want to see the balance between ranged and melee combat for the ranger (& for other archetypes). There is this misperception in core fantasy that rangers are synonymous with archers. Rangers are named because they range - i.e. wander - the wilds. A bow is a tool not a concrete job requirement, and just as valuable as an axe or a spear, depending on the situation. Of all the classes, I want the ranger to be the most versatile switching between bows & melee.
- The rapid shot looks a little too 'heavy stormtrooper' to me. Too fast and too colorful. I want rapid fire to feel like 'tchunk....tchunk .... tchunk... tchunk' not 'PEWPEWPEWPEW'
- I'm torn on the disengage flip. On the one hand, I L-O-V-E the mobility (in the theme of versatility). On the other hand, I don't want to see a screen full of acrobatic rangers just flipping around the landscape and vertical climbs, dodging any incoming damage. That would be silly. So some reasonable moderation will be required.
- The core function of marks is cool. I'm not sure if there are lore tie-ins here, but it would be cool to expand the connection to bear, wolves, ravens to something deeper and more meaningful than just abilities. Any of the animistic world religions can serve as an informative baseline for where the ranger can go. What happens when you have a Ranger from the Ravensgardt clan run into the bannerman of the Bjornsggardt?
- The Strider from Dragon's Dogma - good balance of ranged to melee
- The flow between ranged and melee from Elden Ring or Mortal Online II
- Not sure how deep tracking will be yet, but w/UE5 the options could be cool. Ideally, something in between the animal tracking in RDR2 (scents) and the more mystical tracking in Witcher 3 (senses). If I pincushioned an annoying rogue, I'd like to be able to run him to ground and finish him off after he stealthed to escape.
Overall - excellent job, Intrepid.
I'll split this post in two parts while trying not to be too long and boring.
Regarding the Ranger Archtype I think the overall approach is very well designed. The animations and spell effecfs look polished and the base kit matches what we expect from a ranger in MMORPGs. Furthermore, I think the shown kit have a lot of potential for learning the base concept for the Archtype, while still offering an acceptable learning curve on the Ranger's skill ceiling. The mechanic around Marks and Hunts fit perfectly in the archtype's fantasy.
Regarding the overall direction for all Archtypes, I would consider super interesting if all archtypes are more focused about tab targeting abilities (about 90-95% of the toolkit) and still having some impactfull skillshots, which would diferentiate low to average skilled players from high skilled players for that same Archtype (which would be the other 5-10% of the toolkit). If this is the case, even more casual players would feel compelled to play a certain archtype, as they would excel in 90-95% of their Archtype while still have those 5-10% as a progression goal on perfecting their chosen Archtype. For those who can't reach this 5-10%, they would still be viable of playing those 90-95% of their Archtype potential, which would not demotivated them to play the Archtype they like.
Also (and this is a bit off-topic), I would be pleased to see if some Archtype have some sort of utility skill. Something that make other think "oh, if we bring X Archtype on our group we would be able to do Y, which would not be possible without him, otherwise". As an example, the Rogue Archtype would be able to spot treasures and track hidden passages inside dungeons. This type of abilities add another layer of Archtype's fantasy, and the feel of being needed and useful.
Some ideas on utility skills for some Archtypes (i''m not that good with naming abilities, so don't blame me)
Ranger (problably more suitable for the Scout Specilization)
Hints Pursuit - this skill would allow the Ranger to spot subtle hints on the environment which, if he follows them, would lead to discover an otherwise not findable mob inside the dungeon. There could be dungeons where this mob would be trackable by the hunter in every dungeon reset (some named mob with an appealing loot) and other dungeons where the mobs will not always the there. Also, the loot on this mobs, this could also support an hidden sub-system on Archtypes, being the Utility Progression, meaning this mobs could drop items that would increase the Ranger efficiency on Hints Pursuit, having higher level dungeons to require a higher efficiency on Hints Pursuit to allow the Ranger to discover the hidden mob on that specific dungeon. Let's call this mobs the "Utility Bosses" as they would serve the purpose of levling this Utility skills.
Archwizzard
Colossus Meltdown - The Archwizzard would be able to meltdown frozen doors/passages that would lead to Utility Mobs.
Warlock
Death Realm - The Warlock would be able to enter the Death Realm. Inside the Death Realm he would be able to see spirit ghosts from the past (which are not visible in the "Normal Realm") and interact with them. Some of this mobs would be Lore-focused but other could conjure a portal (both to Death and Normal Realms) to allow all members in the group to go thought it and access a room with an Utility Boss or an otherwise unaccessable treasure chest.
Anyways, Intrepid, thank you for all the hard work you've been putting into the game. The progress it's on point and on the right direction. Happy New Year, everyone|
Arrows which travel on a horizontally curved trajectory, should have both physical and magical damage. When the curvature increases, the physical damage should decrease and should consume more mana.
The lash concept should be adjusted to make mobs defend a common area.
Mobs should keep fighting when they retreat unless they flee.
They should heal (slowly) only if nobody attacks them.
When a named mob fights around, all should be more dangerous as if being better coordinated.
Players should not be able to easily predict the place where a mob will flee or retreat. We should see surprising unusual behavior caused by other mob deaths, repeated player aggression, player low health etc
I feel conflicted because I like the general gameplay of the Archetype but not the way the team presents them to us.
[*] What excites you about playing and interacting with the Ranger archetype? [*]
The agility and mobility in combat are the features that I like most about it.
If you play as a Ranger against melee players you know you have to stay away from your target or skill into abilities to overcome that weakness and surprise your foes with a multitude of CC and other control skills if they come close before you chip away their HP with Dots, procs and marked snipe combos.
Against ranged players you'd have to surprise them at best and strategize what skills are best to disable theirs and how to end the fight quickly.
If you play against a Ranger you know you have to close the gap or the Ranger will slowly but surely diminish your health to zero without you having a chance of damaging it. Most frustrating as a melee, but not of concern for other ranged archetypes who just also burn them down at a distance.
Setting up traps and root conditions on your targets is nice too, as long as it is a viable option and not one of these, 1 second afflicted or instant removed when shot mechanics... I'd like to have useful skills in my repertoire and not only class fantasy flavors...
[*] Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Ranger Archetype Update?[ *]
So yes there are "some" things, what about crossbows and the whole pallet of other ranged weapons fitting into high fantasy?!
Only bow seems meh when other classes have more options in their field of expertise...
I know that you only want to provide skins for these but I'm sure there are options to implement other physical ranged weapons with full functional systems into the game for Ranger as it was viable to give the melee archetypes more than one weapon of choice... please reconsider. At least for after launch!
The shots (and in general melee strikes too) are way too fast.
Steven said we need to wait for the archetypes to be fully developed until the polishing stage where things like animation, and attack speed, will be worked on further, but I think attack speed, and especially melee combat has to feel right before I can say it's a good design to polish to perfection.
This showed me, that on that front you need to scale down the speed a bit or it's just a mush of skills flying through the scene without meaningful choices and impactful decisions.
It's the right direction on design but not quite there for me to enjoy without concerns.
It's not pure realism I know that but this goes more into the realm of hack and slay without the strategy needed to create a feeling of accomplishment when defeating an enemy with skill and not who can strike first and mash buttons faster...
Why do we need so many different marks for doing damage?
Why is there a red glowing shot in a green-designed class kit identity?????!!!!!
(Big misstep for the integrity of your design guidelines, as the next questions are about the same problem.)
Why are there electric shots without augments from the mage? (tho maybe changed when implemented)
Why does Steven want to summon a hound for the tracing utility skill without a summoner subclass, I would give that exact utility design to the summoner himself rather...
Don't overlap with the design of the other Archetypes and maybe future archetypes you consider adding, like a druid, monk, barbarian, artificer, whatever fits into the world.
Craft a clear identity for the archetypes that's one of the most important tasks you have to get right before fine-tuning the subclasses and other combat-related systems!!!
I'd also like to see a broader range of uses not only how the skills look and feel against a "player dummy"
How does it feel to play against NPCs?
Do the skills provide a round set of core functions in a PvX setting, against single mobs, elites, swarm enemies, bosses, and players who actually fight back?
( I mean you kinda showed that last point in a funny way almost dying...
My core issue with your balance approach is, that you seemably not care about 1vs1.
I don't know how it actually will play out BUT I care very much about fair PVP.
There is nothing to say about what is fair and what is not because it's very subjective to the individual and the type of situation where we get confronted by that, but if I get the feeling that I do everything I can in the battle against another player and I always loose against that type of archetype I will be extremely frustrated...
Trust me there will be many situations, where I have to focus only on one particular player, not every part of the game will or should be group combat-related.
There must be strategies for EVERY archetype to use the skills to your advantage and if I have to jump from tree to tree or have to skill into every CC possible or by pressing the keys of my keyboard behind my back while doing a 360 on a skateboard naked...
Players need viable options or the class is broken.
Not for everyone but for the majority who care for it and you don't want that to happen because I don't want that to happen either...
However... we will have to wait for A2 for more details about the gameplay for more precise feedback about the archetypes.
[*] Are there similar archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain! [*]
I like the Ranger/Bard from FFXIV because it is a round class with dots to maintain and procs, and resources to build up and spend throughout the fight. It's also reactive to play. It's a mix of buffing and weaving in OGCDs between the main skills which I like the most because it creates a fun dynamic playstyle without gaps where you have to wait significantly for cooldowns or spam insignificant filler skills. Using your skillset with strategy, reactive procs, and interweavable options is the perfect combat style for me which can be transferred in design to all other archetypes in general with their own kind of twist and flavor.
I assume there will be no global cooldown for main skills, so it's less frustrating than in most conventional tab-target games.
But when I think about New World's approach to a bow using "class" where you only had 3 useless skills to use...
The most fun was trying to hit headshots and skill shots from afar on moving targets I'd like that in Ashes too, but in the heat of the battle it is good to know I can switch back to tab target and I don't have to aim everything 100% accurate.
I would rather spend my time practicing my skill in using the right abilities than being frustrated all the time for not hitting perfect shots with every combat action... There needs to be a balance as always.
But I think beneficial headshots are not viable in a game like this.
Overall a successful showcase but stay closer to your design philosophy for future updates I know you can do it. You have proven to me on multiple occasions that your ambitions are no hollow buzzword fantasies.