Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!

📝 Dev Discussion #60 - Esports 🏟

135678

Comments

  • As long as the focus is on engaging, entertaining gameplay, I think "e-sports" is a great idea, but the term itself is full of innuendo. E-Sports that succeeds in most games revolves around real life money. The reason people put effort into them, and compete in them, is because of that monetary/reward aspect, not the actual gameplay and entertainment of the fight itself.

    I love, love, love PvP, but I am not a fan of E-Sports for that reason.

    ___________________________

    Having said that, I think it would be amazing to have a gladiator type system that has strict rules for each fight in a series of progressive fights towards the championship.

    For example, anyone can enter, but the first batch of fights has the rule of "level vs level". In this set of fights, fighters are matched by their total level into multiple teams. One team could be a single high-level player (say lvl 20), the second team is twenty low-level players (all lvl 1), and the third team is composed of varied-level players (say a 5, 6, 8, and 9). How level progression balance plays into this would obviously be interesting, and maybe there would need to be some sort of weighting system, but you get the point.

    Then the second batch of fights has the rule of "players vs mobs" and is a sort of zombie-ish type combat where each team fights a progressively hard set of npcs, and the teams that last the longest move on to the next round.

    Then a free for all round where the last three standing move on, even if they were previously in a team.

    Things like that. Anything other than "3v3 over and over and over and over and over again".

    _____________________________

    Then maybe have a voting system in the stands to create engagement with the viewers.

    As an example, during the fights, viewers can vote on certain areas of the map to cause some sort of explosion or trap to happen, potentially damaging one team to (un)balance the fight.

    Maybe have a thumbs up / down vote where the spectators can disqualify a player/team that prevents them from moving to the next round, or "resurrects" them to continue even if they did not qualify by the rules of that round otherwise.
    2r2ad09r3yug.jpg

  • 2e6bldpylftq.jpeg

    rvid9f6vp7vl.png
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    • Combat needs to be able to facilitate an e-sports scene, if this is genuine. Most hybrid, middle ground combat system I've seen is Predecessor, Smite, GW2, and TERA after. Pred and Smite are actual moba/esports games, GW2 had a decent esports scene with their 5 v 5 and TERA has a combat style most similar to these games afterwards. I will not mention asymmetrical mobas as they are not top down.
    • Maps need to facilitate the balancing goals of the entire scope of the game, a lot of fun maps from previous games would not make good esports maps in Ashes as they were pure objective based PvP or they were entirely too large, such as Arathi Basin.
    • Symmetrical moba like maps with arena elements would fit what Ashes is going for if it is to balance its 8 v 8 PvX.
    • Rewards for e-sports should be in the theme of bragging rights: skins, weapon particle effects, permanent titles ranked based cosmetics and mount skins. Those are the really only appropriate things that do not disrupt the rest of the game.
    • A point buy in system, tier of gear available to the combatants to reflect max level PvX.
  • Solvryn wrote: »
    • Combat needs to be able to facilitate an e-sports scene, if this is genuine. Most hybrid, middle ground combat system I've seen is Predecessor, Smite, GW2, and TERA after. Pred and Smite are actual moba/esports games, GW2 had a decent esports scene with their 5 v 5 and TERA has a combat style most similar to these games afterwards. I will not mention asymmetrical mobas as they are not top down.
    • Maps need to facilitate the balancing goals of the entire scope of the game, a lot of fun maps from previous games would not make good esports maps in Ashes as they were pure objective based PvP or they were entirely too large, such as Arathi Basin.
    • Symmetrical moba like maps with arena elements would fit what Ashes is going for if it is to balance its 8 v 8 PvX.
    • Rewards for e-sports should be in the theme of bragging rights: skins, weapon particle effects, permanent titles ranked based cosmetics and mount skins. Those are the really only appropriate things that do not disrupt the rest of the game.
    • A point buy in system, tier of gear available to the combatants to reflect max level PvX.

    Well 1v1, 3v3, 5v5 is what’s confirmed at the moment
    For anyone who has played other types of ranked game modes
    It is very daunting trying to organise 5 people let alone 8 to all jump on at the same time and coordinating that size can be kind of chaotic

    Battlegrounds have never been in e-sport
    It was always the AWC, Arena World Championship for 3v3…

    kvri44i6m3l8.jpeg


    rvid9f6vp7vl.png
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    With no fast travel, would any form have to be either instanced or individual per nodal region?
  • NightmarelolNightmarelol Member
    edited February 9
    This is all so simple

    Keep the Arena system in place with a competitive Ranked system
    - 1v1
    - 3v3
    - 5v5
    (just make it Team Deathmatch *last man standing* instead of respawn objectives)

    Now we add a SEPERATE system called Battlegrounds with the different game modes
    ***These modes can have seperate rewards to the Arena system***
    That’s where people that have been talking about
    - 8v8
    - 20v20
    - Capture the Flag
    - Destroy Towers
    - Objective based PvP

    E-Sports being a seperate thing 100% should be in as there will be teams competing for this game ***3v3 Arena being the only one that can facilitate this as it’s the most balanced and most entertaining to watch as seen in nearly every other games Worlds tournaments***
    And they can have on Twitch an Ashes Worlds Tournament to see which Team from different regions of the World makes its way to the Grand-Final.
    j2p8mdmovgu9.jpg
  • Esports will obviously have to be instanced if implemented, which imo goes against the soul of the game.
    That being said;
    Imagine you have castles run by however many teams on their own server. Game ends when one team successfully survives sieges laid by other teams, through alliances and eliminating other teams themselves.
    It makes the caravan aspect, the social aspect, the open world, all relevant to the game, whether played professionally or otherwise.

    When have we ever had an esport where you could ally yourself with competitors to take down another team, and imagine the betrayal, the different stories all happening simultaneously. It could take a month for the esport team who would finally come out on top to beat out all the others, and so you would have a whole month of the year where everyone is getting on twitch to tune in and see some game of thrones style antics and drama.
    I imagine they would start from scratch, and acquire gear and resources to defend themselves and stay in the game. Maybe one team gets knocked out early, maybe you have some global super power team held at bay by a 4 way alliance.
    I think it would be really cool.
  • Vissox wrote: »
    Esports will obviously have to be instanced if implemented, which imo goes against the soul of the game.
    That being said;
    Imagine you have castles run by however many teams on their own server. Game ends when one team successfully survives sieges laid by other teams, through alliances and eliminating other teams themselves.
    It makes the caravan aspect, the social aspect, the open world, all relevant to the game, whether played professionally or otherwise.
    .

    9lzxabavpgub.jpeg

    Already confirmed, it’s called end game PvP content
    rvid9f6vp7vl.png
  • KnottiKnotti Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I agree that any sort of arena based e-sport isn't the vibe AOC should be going for. Capture the Flag, Domination, and Resource Collecting type battlegrounds would be a lot more appropriate.

    Another type of mini-game type would be Teams vs Monsters. Monsters that are undefeatable and the goal is to bring them down to the lowest health that the team can before they are wiped. Monsters such as Dragons, Giants, etc.

    Such as:

    3 vs Dragon (elite)
    5 vs Dragon (elite+)
    10 vs Dragon (elite++)

    3 vs Giant (elite)
    5 vs Giant (elite+)
    10 vs Giant (elite++)

    Etc.

    The colosseum based mini-game would run in 3 month seasons crowning the top teams of each bracket with only Titles, Tabards, and the all important Clout. After the season is over tweaks are made to the monsters abilities and the season is reopened.

    The "e-sport" part of this mini-game would be largely content creator driven. A guild might advertise when they plan to make attempts and stream them. Or not to protect their strategies.
  • Pyrolol wrote: »

    Already confirmed, it’s called end game PvP content
    It is a core PVP loop, but I don't know if it is being considered as a potential esport.
  • It’s literally confirmed

    jmd9gwhgysfb.jpeg

    So clearly it is the vibe
    rvid9f6vp7vl.png
  • Vissox wrote: »
    Pyrolol wrote: »

    Already confirmed, it’s called end game PvP content
    It is a core PVP loop, but I don't know if it is being considered as a potential esport.

    Just because it isn’t your cup of tea doesn’t mean it isn’t other peoples, I know a lot of people who are excited for this type of fast paced Arena style combat
    rvid9f6vp7vl.png
  • KnottiKnotti Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Pyrolol wrote: »
    Vissox wrote: »
    Pyrolol wrote: »

    Already confirmed, it’s called end game PvP content
    It is a core PVP loop, but I don't know if it is being considered as a potential esport.

    Just because it isn’t your cup of tea doesn’t mean it isn’t other peoples, I know a lot of people who are excited for this type of fast paced Arena style combat

    Okay we get it you agree with arena being in the game and you've made your point. The forum needs less derpy spam.
  • Knotti wrote: »
    Pyrolol wrote: »
    Vissox wrote: »
    Pyrolol wrote: »

    Already confirmed, it’s called end game PvP content
    It is a core PVP loop, but I don't know if it is being considered as a potential esport.

    Just because it isn’t your cup of tea doesn’t mean it isn’t other peoples, I know a lot of people who are excited for this type of fast paced Arena style combat

    Okay we get it you agree with arena being in the game and you've made your point. The forum needs less derpy spam.

    People are just posting without reading any of it champ
    Im sure there are aspects about this game you are looking forward to as well, otherwise you wouldn’t be here
    rvid9f6vp7vl.png
  • Knotti wrote: »
    I agree that any sort of arena based e-sport isn't the vibe AOC should be going for. Capture the Flag, Domination, and Resource Collecting type battlegrounds would be a lot more appropriate.

    Why don’t we have both?

    j2p8mdmovgu9.jpg
  • Arenas - especially if we end up with physical ones in places such as Military Nodes - should be VERY accessible for player-run events. While I'd like "default" game-run tournaments and contests, we should ABSOLUTELY be able to organize our own, with results that the game saves, for us. Probably game-run matches should instance - but we should still have the option to PvP-flag for pre-arranged owPvP events, to happen in the physical location of such places.

    Yours truly was a big fan of hosting player-events in games such as SWG and SWTOR. While SWG was the far-earlier game, it oddly offered *far* more options for player-run events such as races, safe-spaces empty of NPCs, crowd-accommodation, and event-related player-placeable NPCs. SWTOR took a giant leap backwards, in that PvP matches had no physical location (you queue'd to go to non-physical zones), and ALL vehicles/mounts had the same speed-potential. Even the difference in "tiers" of speed in SWG could be used to make events unique.

    Hunting-based events were also possible in SWG, but not in SWTOR. I'd hosted two events based on an ever-spawn of banthas in SWG, in which teams hunted a VERY fast respawn, and a timer was set. At the end? The teams would pool the hide they collected from the large spawn, and the one with the most was declared the winner. I even made special outfits, for the event, as we had a collection of guild-outfits you earned by participating in the events. Winners and the outfit collection were prominently displayed in the guild hall. SWTOR offered NONE of this.



  • KnottiKnotti Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Knotti wrote: »
    I agree that any sort of arena based e-sport isn't the vibe AOC should be going for. Capture the Flag, Domination, and Resource Collecting type battlegrounds would be a lot more appropriate.

    Why don’t we have both?

    I think that AOC combat should be more focused on large scale group battle PVP. 1v1, 3v3, etc can still exist and be organized by players for tournaments and such, but players should be out in the world contributing to economy, growth, and challenges rather than stuck in queue and in one area in a ladder bracket loop.
  • OptionOption Member
    edited February 10
    I think Arena won’t be out till much later after the game is well and truly underway, in NW it got very boring only having OW and no smaller scale PvP. There needs to be some sort of end game content for us PvPers.
    NW then released Outpost (battleground style PvP) and it got one dimensional and stale very quick
    Then all the players lost interest and stopped playing haha

    Arena with seasons can fix this… For the PvPers anyway

    If hardcore PvErs have end game Raids
    Why can’t hardcore PvPers have a serious Arena system?
  • Pyrolol wrote: »
    Knotti wrote: »
    Pyrolol wrote: »
    Vissox wrote: »
    Pyrolol wrote: »

    Already confirmed, it’s called end game PvP content
    It is a core PVP loop, but I don't know if it is being considered as a potential esport.

    Just because it isn’t your cup of tea doesn’t mean it isn’t other peoples, I know a lot of people who are excited for this type of fast paced Arena style combat

    Okay we get it you agree with arena being in the game and you've made your point. The forum needs less derpy spam.

    People are just posting without reading any of it champ
    Im sure there are aspects about this game you are looking forward to as well, otherwise you wouldn’t be here

    You posted without reading what I typed man. I didn't just re-suggest arena, I proposed a tournament server with un-instanced combat that could potentially last months not minutes/hours.
  • I mean there plenty of times in my WoW/ESO/ other Arenas where in between Arena ques or waiting to Que, I’m doing world quests, your scavenging or exploring and doing some crafting for example, so maybe separating the both could be quite a fair bit extreme. Not every person does hours and hours of ques most people do say 10+ games with their team then go back to exploring the world and doing other activities
    j2p8mdmovgu9.jpg
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 10
    Yes to the planned arenas, although I would completely drop any 1v1 and go with 3v3, 5v5 and 8v8. This is not a 1v1 game, it's not balanced for it, and the incessant whining from 1v1 arena players will be unbearable. I would even argue that 3v3 is too few.

    Please drop any notion of Intrepid run e-sport tournaments at first. Create and support a framework for player-run tournaments and if those take off and become wildly popular, then, and only then, should you, Intrepid, put on any esports goggles.

    Please focus on making the core game first. E-sports is not a core feature in any MMORPG, nor a wildly popular one in any of them that have it. Get combat done really well for the core gameplay loops, and then maybe there is a chance down the line the player run tournaments can turn into an actual recognised e-sport.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 10
    1v1s 100% should exist, they are one of the most popular arena modes and there is a lot of players looking forward to it, if anything, I'd say have 1v1s just like in L2 you can join to fight vs any class or to fight only against the same class you are playing,

    the argument that the game is not balanced on 1v1 not valid, game is also not balanced on 3v3 so we shouldnt have those even tho mos players that likes arena want that? its simple, if they make 1v1, 3v3 and 8v8 ranked arenas, you can simply not queue 1v1 if you don't like it, theres no rewards to get that are based per queue type, rewards are tied to the pvp season system you don't even need to join ranked arenas, if players don't like 1v1 just don't queue up,
    img]
    Recrutamento aberto - Nosso Site: Clique aqui
  • 1v1 sounds too anti social to me
    I loved playing with a friend or in a team
    And coordinating together
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Option wrote: »
    1v1 sounds too anti social to me
    I loved playing with a friend or in a team
    And coordinating together

    well, you have the Option to not play that mode
    img]
    Recrutamento aberto - Nosso Site: Clique aqui
  • Even for a game not balanced around 1v1(also not balanced for 2v2 or 3v3 or 5v5) like Ashes will be and like Lineage 2 was, 1v1 arenas are excellent to accomplish a specific purpose many players love, to show whom the best individual player of each class is(by themselves and not team carried) aswell as the motivation and competitivity around said concept(Specially around a system that gives something unique to said player and make them stand out in the crowd like Lineage 2 Heroes System).

    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • I’ve personally never played a 1v1 type arena in an mmo, so I wouldn’t mind seeing how that is in game

    In regards to E-Sports later on down the track, has to be 3v3 as that is the most popular and imo the most fun/intense
    rvid9f6vp7vl.png
  • BotBot Member
    Vital to have some sort of legitimate top level competition. That's what drives the game's pvp scene seeing the capability of classes and builds in the game. It really drives the longevity by pushing people to improve, want to buy better stuff, be more active, etc. Just really no down sides. I think the important tools necessary are organized environments productive for guild wars, 1v1s, and small 3v3 combat. I think a proper equalized arena for 1v1 and 3v3 that's somewhat spacious circle is essential. Then a proper and well thought out guild war system. Have cooldowns, legitimate unique reward to obtain, a leaderboard, titles, etc. It'd be nice to have support from the company for big tournaments as well in terms of access or support with developer tools like an unlocked flying camera to record. Having dev hosted, official tournaments would be good as well in conjunction with player held ones. Player held ones could be more lucrative with stuff like money and gear while official ones can provide special stuff like titles, cosmetics, etc.
  • TeltheKeeperTeltheKeeper Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I love the idea of those types of events, since war Nodes have it built into Politics to choose their mayor, it could be a Building in war Nodes. A place to place bets during the Queue, allowing the players that are spectating to be part of the show in multiple ways Some sort of Spectator Interaction. The grander the Node the Grander the Colosseum. Making the arenas have like Faux Sea or air combat, Massive war fields in a Pocket Dimension (Battle Royal mode Back at it), and Just straight Captured raid bosses to fight to see who can clear the Fastest. at least i think that would be the idea, a Spectacle that involves all of the Game Strong suits, showcasing all the Facets of Combat. Have it like a Job to manage one that rivals the Mayor Position in control but only over that arena.
  • Bot wrote: »
    Vital to have some sort of legitimate top level competition. That's what drives the game's pvp scene seeing the capability of classes and builds in the game. It really drives the longevity by pushing people to improve, want to buy better stuff, be more active, etc. Just really no down sides. I think the important tools necessary are organized environments productive for guild wars, 1v1s, and small 3v3 combat. I think a proper equalized arena for 1v1 and 3v3 that's somewhat spacious circle is essential. Then a proper and well thought out guild war system. Have cooldowns, legitimate unique reward to obtain, a leaderboard, titles, etc. It'd be nice to have support from the company for big tournaments as well in terms of access or support with developer tools like an unlocked flying camera to record. Having dev hosted, official tournaments would be good as well in conjunction with player held ones. Player held ones could be more lucrative with stuff like money and gear while official ones can provide special stuff like titles, cosmetics, etc.

    Not all heroes wear capes 🙌🏻

    j2p8mdmovgu9.jpg
  • OptionOption Member
    edited February 10
    Bot wrote: »
    Vital to have some sort of legitimate top level competition. That's what drives the game's pvp scene seeing the capability of classes and builds in the game. It really drives the longevity by pushing people to improve, want to buy better stuff, be more active, etc. Just really no down sides..

    4a8f2mrqqrfh.gif
Sign In or Register to comment.