Everyone can understand a 3v3 death-match
WoWs AWC was in the top 10 viewed for e-sports so I wouldn’t call it a fail
Lol what? You don't think gamers will understand the core Ashes gameplay if done in an e-sports setting? Who do you think the audience is? Who do you think the people watching WoW e-sports are?
Games like CS or Valorant have like 5 times the viewers compared to WoW for their e-sports, and they sure as hell don't have 5 times the player-base overall. They probably have 5 times the player-base of WoW players who actually play arenas though, because arenas are not part of the core gameplay in WoW. The vast majority of players in WoW don't do arenas on any sort of regular basis.
Another possible setting for an e-sport in Ashes could be caravan PvP. It's less of a PvX setting unless they add defensive NCP guards, but it's much closer to a core gameplay loop for Ashes.
I appreciate the opportunity to contribute to the ongoing Dev Discussion on esports and player-run competitive events within MMORPGs. My feedback focuses on the PvP aspect, particularly arenas, and how they could enhance both competitive play and esports potential in Ashes of Creation.
The current six-month PvP season system is a contentious issue among players. The primary concern lies in the imbalance it creates between participants and the demotivation it causes for late starters. For instance, a player joining the arena later in the season stands little chance against those who began from the start, leading to a significant loss of motivation to participate as the season progresses. To address this, I propose a shift to weekly or monthly arena systems, with additional summaries for quarterly, semi-annual, or annual achievements.
Furthermore, I'd like to suggest specific improvements to make the arena and esports aspects more engaging:
1. Inclusion of 1v1 Arenas: It's vital to cater to solo players or those unable to find a team. 1v1 arenas are a classic and beloved format that tests individual skill and strategy. This format should coexist alongside team-based options without undermining the MMO aspect of team play. Also, if you ask where the best MMORPG arena is, many will answer that it is L2 or BNS. And this is exactly the 1x1 arena that everyone loved and remembered so much.
2. Balanced Team Matchmaking for 3v3 and 5v5: For solo players entering team arenas, the matchmaking system should ensure balanced opposition, factoring in similar strength levels and gear scores (I don’t know if it will be displayed in the game - but it could be an internal stat hidden from the players). This could involve matching teams with a similar composition of party and solo players to maintain fairness.
3. Prevention of Rating Manipulation: The system should be designed to prevent players from artificially inflating their ratings through exploits, such as scheduling matches during off-peak hours to face the same opponent (accomplice) repeatedly. Reducing points gained from victories against the same opponent multiple times could be a solution.
4. Restriction on Consumables: To maintain fairness, the use of extra food or potions should not be allowed in the arena, ensuring that victories rely on skill and strategy rather than external enhancements.
No 5 does not directly relate to the current topic, but concerns pvp content in general.
5. Introduction of Battlegrounds: Beyond the arena, incorporating battlegrounds as a PvP content format is crucial. These should offer rewards and progression opportunities on par with PvE activities, ensuring that players do not have to choose between PvP and PvE for character development.
Incorporating these suggestions could significantly enhance the PvP experience in Ashes of Creation, making it more accessible, fair, and enjoyable for a wider range of players. It would also contribute to the game's potential in the esports domain by providing varied, spectator-friendly content that encourages both participation and viewership.
Thank you for considering my feedback. I look forward to seeing how these ideas might influence the future of Ashes of Creation and its community.
While I prefer a node based Arena System as I described in my first post with all of its features, I still think it's beneficial to have some sort of regional arena queue system as well, like what is outlined in the wiki. The server based Arena/Colosseum system would be more grounded and rooted in the game world with many enveloped features, while the arena queues would be a way of competing in regional matchmaking and leaderboards. Regional matchmaking allows matches to fill up quicker and serves as a gateway for cross-server competition. It's not bound to the restrictions brought from a static colosseum such as map size, layout and the environment. This is great option to have because unique scenarios can be created easily that may be hard to recreate in the open world with a wide variety of maps, game modes, and group sizes. Also allow players to create custom lobbies with options/settings for private and public events with a spectator mode.
Another simple yet effective addition is having leaderboards for everything. Raid/dungeon clear times, Boss kill times, Arenas, Colosseum tournaments, Caravans, Node wars, Guild Wars, mini games, etc.
E-Sports should not be the ultimate goal. Provide players the tools to create their own lobbies or tournaments and it will naturally grow into something bigger if there is an interest for it. That way if the E-Sports thing doesn't work out for whatever reason, the community can still utilize those same systems to create their own tournaments or competitive scene.
I was thinking about it and in my previous post I said that WoW did not do much of anything to promote arenas or esports. That is actually not true in the time preriod that i Played they came out with 2 Arenas maps in Mist of Pandara. They come out an achievement that after 100 wins you got a pvp mount and in Warlords of Draenor they come out with instant que skimirshes (non ranked arenas were already an option in war games).
However they also very fervently participated in the destruction of the 3v3 brackets and open wrold PvP
That kind of temporarly blinded to the other facts. They did not do anything about the things that were as far as PvP hindering it. Very very very very simple things like dps distribution among classes. Top dps for one class on avergage170k (dps class) in the lower end of the spectrum 110k (another dps) what does this do for PvP already posted in another thread so will not continue with this post.
So this is not an apology just want to be accurate with my post and try to stay unbiased.
Maybe not as an esport, but I would like to see a framework for server-wide parlor game tournaments. Like, people enter the qualifiers in their local taverns and work their way to regional (castle based regions) competitions, and the best players from each region enter the final grand tournament. It can be instanced/lobby based so players don't have to travel hours to participate in some far off metropolis.
The only esport I can see succeed is a PvX based one though, but again, I prefer intrepid forget all about it for release.
I can't see Ashes of Creation having a real esports scene, but I hope combat is complex enough to make it possible. Besides that the main thing that comes to mind is something like a gladiatorial arena, where people can view fights in game and get something out of watching/supporting the people fighting. Becoming another way to bring the community together, through encouraging people to be invested in players or teams, a way to test/scout people, and a way to gain fame throughout the server.
Combat being good and complex is the first component.
I finally had a thought of what I'd like to see in terms of a PvX, group eSport version of Ashes, to watch.
The Tri-Terror Arena
An 8v8 arena that contains 3 level-bracket appropriate boss mobs in a triangle. Not the same ones every time, it can be kinda randomized, but not too much. That's the balance team's headache...
Players are allowed into this arena, the bosses do not automatically attack. Defeating any boss gives a whole-team buff that lasts about a minute, that can be random too.
Winner is the team that kills more bosses at the timer, where 'killing' is a combination of credit for damage, healing credit on a tank which has the boss' attention, and a multiplier for the last hit (this part probably isn't necessary, but the last hitting group should always be the one that gets the buff).
No rules otherwise, you can go full PvP and whittle down your opponents until their respawns are all out of sync and you can get a lot of credit on the bosses, you can 'have a friendly match where both parties race to kill whichever boss they are better at and then get to the remaining one, you can have absolute chaos with people trying to manip bosses into hitting other people with effects or whatever, or pile all the bosses into one spot and hope Mage AoE does the job. (generally, pulling them too far from their spawn circle should mess with their current targeting though, or something).
Since PvE and PvP gear should be about the same, and the game is supposed to be balanced around groups of 8, one of each Archetype, and bosses should be able to adapt to player tactics, I think I'd have fun watching this, and it could get pretty intense if the bosses themselves were the thing that affected the dynamism of the Arena.
Add or subtract any number of other mini-mechanics, from 'Artisan skills having some effect during respawns' to 'sometimes the entire arena is in the ocean and both parties get two small rafts or boats'.
I finally had a thought of what I'd like to see in terms of a PvX, group eSport version of Ashes, to watch.
The Tri-Terror Arena
An 8v8 arena that contains 3 level-bracket appropriate boss mobs in a triangle. Not the same ones every time, it can be kinda randomized, but not too much. That's the balance team's headache...
Yep, I can agree with this. Slightly different format than the one I suggested, but the basics are the same: 8v8 PvX fight with two teams and bosses. It fits the game much better than arena fights.
My personal opinion about eSports in MMORPG is that it has huge potential. From 1v1 PvP to large guild wars, dungeon races, castle sieges and even a competition about the contribution to the ingame world can be possible.
The only downside I see would be the differences in gear, consumables, possible unique abilities and titles, as well as mounts, which can be seen as unfair. Though there are definetly also solutions to this problem.
I'm looking forward for future announcements in that section!
The guild Royal CCC has a keen interest in this type of content.
My advice for Intrepid Studios is to avoid repeating the mistakes made by ArenaNet with Guild Wars 2 in terms of esports.
Regarding the various types of content:
Some of these have already been mentioned and are documented in the wiki.
Content ideas include:
- PvE: instanced dungeons/raids for 8 or 16 players
- PvP: various formats such as 1vs1, 3vs3, 5vs5 or 8vs8
- GvG: battles with 15vs15 or 20vs20 players, depending on the combat system.
Additional ideas include hidden features in arenas that can impact gameplay, such as setting parts of the arena on fire or creating obstacles. Maps could also have multiple levels to add complexity.
For inspiration on this topic, I recommend watching the anime "The Kings Avatar" for ideas on arena dynamics and competitive challenges.
In terms of tools, studying World of Warcraft could provide valuable insights. Consider the perspectives of viewers, players, casters, and organizers when developing these tools.
Overall, we are in a very early stage and haven't seen much from the game yet. Not even the combat system is nearly finished. Therefore, it is difficult to determine precisely what will be needed/required.
I'm both excited and alarmed by the vivacity of the posts in this thread, and the community at large. I appreciate the opportunity to provide my thoughts on this divisive topic.
I don't have much interest in spectating in general, so my post will skew toward the 'nah' side of the spectrum.
What are your thoughts on esports and player-run competitive events in the MMORPG genre?
Esports and player-run competitions are two separate things to me. Esports invokes a lot of negative connotations. Reading through the posts here, I'm impressed by the specific ideas people have on how to make gameplay in AoC 'work' in a spectator-sport style. My concern is that this dynamic of spectator to player will ultimately warp the spirt of the gameplay by way of taking input from the spectator base and increasing their interest. To me, MMOs are not about spectators and thus I think this should not be a focus for development, especially at this stage.
Player-run competition, on the other hand, ties in perfectly with my interpretation of AoC's approach as well as my personal desires for gratifying PvP gameplay beyond open world situations. Given the governance aspect of nodes, it makes sense that Intrepid wants to empower players to build their own tournaments, competitions, leagues, etc. The more tools at the player's hands, the more this vision will come to life.
Are there any tools you’d like that would make competitive events easier for players to run?
Yes, this is quite a massive question, really. Some ideas:
-Mayors having the ability to, or able to empower citizens to, design competitions and PvP tournaments using a 'tourney builder' type of interface. Options for the 'designer' would include things like
other player based guidelines (guild vs guild, team archetype composition requirements or rosters)
gambling (both for competitors and for spectators)
-Built in tracking and history system that allows those participating in and those running the events to see the history of other player's PvP engagement. Yes, ranks and PvP rewards will be visible, but I'm talking like deep stats. Visible at both the account and character level. Access to this kind of information might aid the prevention of smurfing, twinks, etc.
-Node vs Node warfare by way of Contract of War. I understand that military nodes are intended to be run by those who have achieved champion standing in battle of that node's player base. I think it would be cool to have a system built in where one node or guild could full-on declare war on another, or request the agreement to engage in war. Either in an open world setting with ongoing skirmishes, spies, etc, or in a more formal setting with a separate battle area, codes of conduct, win conditions... Perhaps there are stakes to the war like node boosts, priority access to content (like you win a war and a new dungeon opens within the winner's node and the losing node players will have to expend more time and energy to access it) resources, gold, etc.
Final thoughts: Honestly, I cringe when I think of AoC capitulating to the economics of game development. Yea, yea, I know, I'm an idealist... I don't envy the position of those trying to steer this ship!
In the limited experience I have with generating and spectating MMO PvP content, it was never about the actual in-game competition for me. It was more about being a fan of whoever I was watching and interacting with other people who were there for that reason. The spectator base was almost entirely made up of people who played the game. The idea of having a hot esports game to get exposure seems counter to the spirit of old-school MMOs.
Watching someone else play an MMO always caused some of the magic of the world to evaporate. I might get flamed for this, but these are my honest desires, I hope that AoC enables players to choose a 'stream-able' experience or 'private' one. The thought of highly skilled professionals coming into this grass-roots style game and using their clout to alter the experience of the average player sends a little shiver down my spine. Maybe it's inevitable...IDK. I'm reminded of the zerglings following big streamers in classic WoW. Amusing to watch from the outside, doubtlessly frustrating for those on the inside.
As a player in a competitive guild, i have high expectations when it comes to PvP. And i have no doubt that this will be the heart of the game.
Personally, i really like the idea of a competitive scene driven by Intrepid, like "AoC Arena World Championship"
An annual event bringing together 2v2, 3v3 teams... by invitation according to the ladder.
With final phases of 4 or 6 groups for example. Followed by a 1/4 final etc...
A classic pattern.
Nothing would subsequently prevent other organizations or players from offering competitive content but i think it is good that the studio can appropriate an official event, as a reference.
So yes, it has to be on the scale of Intrepid. We would be closer to League of Legend tournament at the WCG in 2010 than to the Worlds in 2023, obviously.
But that’s what can make launching a game so charming
The goal is to have an event that would also allow players to meet irl and interact with each other, as well as with the development team. Basically an IntrepidCon ^^
Each year the metas and gameplay evolve, we will be able to follow the teams we like, and it will be the culmination of a year of work for competitive teams, an unmissable meeting. It would echo every 6 months with the major PvE event of the year, which would leave time to prepare for the tournament on one side and the World 1st on the other.
All this creates an attractive ecosystem around the game which is unifying for the public and the players. The esports scene is punctuated by these kinds of tournaments which create a strong bond with the community.
What are your thoughts on esports and player-run competitive events in the MMORPG genre?
A game having an active esports community in PvP or PvE is the lifeblood of the game for me.
To me, it gives me something to aspire to, and push beyond my limits.
Player-run competitive events can sound like chore for the studio, but keep in mind, there will always be an amount of people that is going to enjoy it, and they tend to be slightly more on the creative part, which could give you guys some ideas to what the community wants.
Dedicate some time to the players, and they will stay loyal i can promise that.
What type of competitive, spectator-friendly content do you think could be fitting for Ashes of Creation?
PvP - The Classic of Arenas. 2v2's, 3v3's will never grow boring and depending on the game's systems, 5v5's to 8v8's but I would claim that 8v8's could require some objective outside of *K.O.*.
But hey, give it a try in non-ranked, non-competitive mode first and see how people react to the bigger sizes in arena in your game.
GvGs and *Battlegrounds* with set objectives. Fun, engaging, skill based, pre-planning reward.
PvE - Raids and Dungeons, with similar *dangerousness* levels like Mythic+ from WoW or Mythic raids.
PvX - Modes where you have a set objective while needing to defeat and or hinder the opposite team before they finish theirs. {This is experimental, but if you want to play with the space there, my closest reference would be WoW's Island Expeditions. Or games like Exoprimal.}
Are there any tools you’d like that would make competitive events easier for players to run?
In-game arena environment builder, and if that is too demanding, a way to create a separate arena *pocket* with the rights of moderating it {invite/kick/etc.}. And a way to spectate for players, ex. free-camera-spectator mode, for all spectators, or follow character - potentially to see what he sees.
Final thoughts:
You know, even though I am competitive in my heart, know that the game should always be fun first.
Make the game Balanced just enough, and if you want to have a popular online presence, make it easier to watch, not easier to play.
Reading through this I have realised that some people may be mixing up what actually happens at E-sports and how they are run.
In nearly all cases the server, the game, and your character will NOT be affected.
As WoW/League/CoD/Valorant and various other E-Sport Tournaments, (And as former contestant on an Arena Tournament so this is coming from experience), what they do is:
- Make a seperate Realm / Server that is only accessible by the E-sport tournament players
- All Gear (including PvP/PvE) is available to purchase a week or so before your first match for no currency
- You are able to make up to 3 fully leveled characters (all classes available)
***Important*** This does not affect your current character in the server you are on as these are bascially Intrepid's private servers soley designed for the E-Sport tournament happening at that time.
For anyone thinking the server/game/realm/their characters and/or guild will be affected during an E-sports tournament, you are mistaken, so I hope this clears up any confusion 🙌
Imagine how many players from WoW or other MMO's even such as NW, ESO etc would chime in or even join if they did a well designed 3v3 Arena Bracket with Ashes of Creation mechanics
There's a reason WoW's 3s Arena was the most popular for the past decade and continued to be used as its E-Sports feature. No need to try and re invent the wheel
I think smaller scale party based things like arenas or combination pve and pvp type matches would be best. It is hard for a viewer derive a lot of meaning otherwise from larger scale content as it is too removed from a first person experience which tends to be the most relatable.
I think the objective of the esports also needs to be discussed. If we're doing it for the existing audience or to serve as sort of a broader appeal or not. If we're wanting to create content for the existing player base who has the expertise then you could go a bit more larger scale as the viewer would then have the ability to observe and appreciate it.
As a competitive player and also being member from a competitive guild, I'm pro esports. It can drive people who are willing to, to a higher level, even tough im mostly called a "pve pleb", I'm sure it will trigger me and want to get better. I think it has some big potential. Main concern should be that the game runs smooth. It has to be enjoyable and exciting to watch it.
if the AOC E-Sports looks anything remotely to this (3v3 Best of the Best Teams from all around the World competeing for the #1 spot), then we could be in for a wild ride.
My opinion is that incorporating E-Sports into the game in some form is important!
Players will always strive to be among the best in some category of the game and as such giving the Players the possibility to easily organise Events in game and "market" them as well would be very benificial.
The tools should help casters to be easily able to stream/record these events.
In terms of competitive content ideas I'd say there definitely needs to be:
-PvE such as instanced dungeons. Possibly endurance against wave of monsters (on a node/castle) which would allow guilds and individuals to practice/experience different tactics against sieges
-PvP with leaderboards for different categories (1v1, 2v2,...,8v8)
-GvG with a bigger arena/on an actual piece of the map(on its own instance, so that the Guilds can prove their strength and not be interfered with by zergs)
Though for the GvG and PvP the amount of players would need to vary depending on how the PvP system develops as the combat we have seen (as it's so often repeated) is work in progress.
I think that having a thriving E-Sports community allows players to see what the game has to offer when played at it's best - these Events could also tie into the economy by allowing bets on matches and could bring interesting dynamics to the flow of money within a node. Perhaps a bonus for bringing a caravan to a city with a big Event, depending on the "size" of an event some other boni?
Lots of good memories and moments of competition throughout the years!
Unfortunate to see some community members and Ashes content creators try so hard to vehemently oppose this type of content. A full disregard for the immense skill of the players and the spirit of competition. Arenas is the purest form of skill expression that an MMO can offer and I would not have stuck with WoW if it wasn't for that mode, along with seeing the best of the best perform.
Just dropping my opinion real quick. I think a player run scavenger hunt could be cool. You could give the player creating it a way to designate items in game as clickable hint givers or something... like maybe a wand that when the player clicks an item, instead of firing a spell, it attaches an editable word box to that item that pops up but only when clicked. That could give rise to massive scavenger hunts and maybe hidden treasures. Like maybe the last description box could contain an in game link to a trading tab or the account number to an in game designated account or something. Like before being able to start a game you go to an office, and that's where you buy the wand and deposit the item or reward. You could give each wand an expiration date and level that corresponds to the rewards value, uniqueness, and rarity tables that sets the duration without affecting the price of the wand. With the highest level having an open ended or nonexistent expiration date. That might help keep the system from getting clogged with "troll" hunts where the final item is a meme or prank or something.
Ooooh, maybe on really hard (long duration) or high value reward hunts could pop a notification onto global chat or something saying that someone discovered a secret or the next step when someone clicks on a designated item.
Oh man, this was for esports... never mind i guess.
What are your thoughts on esports and player-run competitive events in the MMORPG genre?
Both are signs of the vitality of a good game, correlating highly with a healthy player population and enthusiasm for the game.
Ashes, advertised as a PvX game, is already attracting a community with significant interest in PvP and competitive gameplay. The truth of the matter is, that Whether the game naturally lends into to an esports style or not, players will self organize into competing groups one way or another. There's a very strong focus on your own server being an evolving world, and it being the playground for such events. I think you've basically got the player-run side of things covered right off the bat.
I'm excited for this idea, but I don't want to see it come at the expense of a more general esports scene, where the very best players and guilds could compete against each other. There is a crowd for this. Our guild in particular has a deep interest in this facet of the game, and I am very much looking forward to seeing how it all plays out.
I think it would be in your best interest to help facilitate this, sooner rather than later.
What type of competitive, spectator-friendly content do you think could be fitting for Ashes of Creation?
Races to significant milestones, world and server firsts, boss clears. These aren't necessarily spectator friendly, but they always seem to garner significant interest from the respective communities.
Arenas are an obvious choice. I have some concerns for the smaller group brackets like 2v2s and 3v3s not being competitive under the rock-paper-scissors class balance. However 5v5 and up might be the sweet spot, with the combat being group balanced, but still allowing individual players to demonstrate their skill, as well as the synergy of a team together being apparent to a spectator.
Note that I wouldn't just scrap the smaller brackets altogether, but I think they do merit some thought beyond a simple deathmatch type scenario if such problems do arise.
Ashes has another opportunity on the opposite end of the spectrum - leveraging it's large scale PvP capabilities. Spin up a server, copy an existing castle from a game, and invite top competitive guilds to copy their characters and participate in rounds of attack and defense. Put some rewards on the line (money? titles? exclusive skins?), commentary, and you've got potential for a great event.
Do toy around with other systems. As an example, I personally don't think caravan raids quite fit the bill here, on the other hand I could see potential for naval combat to work well in this regard.
Are there any tools you’d like that would make competitive events easier for players to run?
Cross server play, private instanced arena rooms, spectator cameras, stat and gear normalization, are obvious examples examples that make such events easier to run and by reducing the barrier to entry.
Bonus points if you retrofit your freehold/house decoration systems to accomodate creating your own arenas. This falls outside the scope of simply making it easier, but is a very, very nice-to-have.
Lots of good memories and moments of competition throughout the years!
Unfortunate to see some community members and Ashes content creators try so hard to vehemently oppose this type of content. A full disregard for the immense skill of the players and the spirit of competition. Arenas is the purest form of skill expression that an MMO can offer and I would not have stuck with WoW if it wasn't for that mode, along with seeing the best of the best perform.
Watching that WoW Arena Tournament gave me such good nostalgia, I really hope if they go with a PvP E-sports it's in the direction of 3v3 competitive play. Arena in general has such a high skill cap and will encourage players to push there classes to the limits, in an Arena you’re dealing with something uncertain and you need to know how to counter them using coordination from your team. A 3v3 E-sports will show more individual skill because when you add more players I feel it becomes more diminished
akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Provide every node with a range of arenas type and possibly tools for editing their setup/layout/visuals, along with mayoral authority over key variables for the fight itself.
Perhaps then this approach empowers players to choose the type of arena they prefer, fostering community engagement and determining which node reaps the benefits.
All for themeparking the broad idea but sandboxing the tools of implementation/execution.
Tournaments yes, especially having the ability to watch them in-game ( buying an arena ticket for example). However, E-Sports?.... Maybe it can work, however don't fall into the OWL from Overwatch trap. If it grow in time, sure. Don't force it.
Its been my experience that PVP esports is very hard for most MMORPGs to do because the PVE and PVP environments are so different. Since this is a PVX game, hopefully that could be easier.
Despite that I'm not much for PVP myself, and don't generally participate in any kind of ranked PVP content, I see value for those who like it.
For years, I wished WoW would create a stand alone PVP game so that the gear / abilities / etc could be balanced just for PVP.
I think a robust esports could bring a lot of attention and depth to Ashes of Creation - so long as its handled in a really good way.
What is a really good way - I wish I had a suggestion here. Arenas - perhaps instanced combat?
I leave this question to the PVPers to lend their expertise on. I personally don't care one way or another.
Comments
Lol what? You don't think gamers will understand the core Ashes gameplay if done in an e-sports setting? Who do you think the audience is? Who do you think the people watching WoW e-sports are?
Games like CS or Valorant have like 5 times the viewers compared to WoW for their e-sports, and they sure as hell don't have 5 times the player-base overall. They probably have 5 times the player-base of WoW players who actually play arenas though, because arenas are not part of the core gameplay in WoW. The vast majority of players in WoW don't do arenas on any sort of regular basis.
Another possible setting for an e-sport in Ashes could be caravan PvP. It's less of a PvX setting unless they add defensive NCP guards, but it's much closer to a core gameplay loop for Ashes.
I appreciate the opportunity to contribute to the ongoing Dev Discussion on esports and player-run competitive events within MMORPGs. My feedback focuses on the PvP aspect, particularly arenas, and how they could enhance both competitive play and esports potential in Ashes of Creation.
The current six-month PvP season system is a contentious issue among players. The primary concern lies in the imbalance it creates between participants and the demotivation it causes for late starters. For instance, a player joining the arena later in the season stands little chance against those who began from the start, leading to a significant loss of motivation to participate as the season progresses. To address this, I propose a shift to weekly or monthly arena systems, with additional summaries for quarterly, semi-annual, or annual achievements.
Furthermore, I'd like to suggest specific improvements to make the arena and esports aspects more engaging:
1. Inclusion of 1v1 Arenas: It's vital to cater to solo players or those unable to find a team. 1v1 arenas are a classic and beloved format that tests individual skill and strategy. This format should coexist alongside team-based options without undermining the MMO aspect of team play. Also, if you ask where the best MMORPG arena is, many will answer that it is L2 or BNS. And this is exactly the 1x1 arena that everyone loved and remembered so much.
2. Balanced Team Matchmaking for 3v3 and 5v5: For solo players entering team arenas, the matchmaking system should ensure balanced opposition, factoring in similar strength levels and gear scores (I don’t know if it will be displayed in the game - but it could be an internal stat hidden from the players). This could involve matching teams with a similar composition of party and solo players to maintain fairness.
3. Prevention of Rating Manipulation: The system should be designed to prevent players from artificially inflating their ratings through exploits, such as scheduling matches during off-peak hours to face the same opponent (accomplice) repeatedly. Reducing points gained from victories against the same opponent multiple times could be a solution.
4. Restriction on Consumables: To maintain fairness, the use of extra food or potions should not be allowed in the arena, ensuring that victories rely on skill and strategy rather than external enhancements.
No 5 does not directly relate to the current topic, but concerns pvp content in general.
5. Introduction of Battlegrounds: Beyond the arena, incorporating battlegrounds as a PvP content format is crucial. These should offer rewards and progression opportunities on par with PvE activities, ensuring that players do not have to choose between PvP and PvE for character development.
Incorporating these suggestions could significantly enhance the PvP experience in Ashes of Creation, making it more accessible, fair, and enjoyable for a wider range of players. It would also contribute to the game's potential in the esports domain by providing varied, spectator-friendly content that encourages both participation and viewership.
Thank you for considering my feedback. I look forward to seeing how these ideas might influence the future of Ashes of Creation and its community.
Another simple yet effective addition is having leaderboards for everything. Raid/dungeon clear times, Boss kill times, Arenas, Colosseum tournaments, Caravans, Node wars, Guild Wars, mini games, etc.
E-Sports should not be the ultimate goal. Provide players the tools to create their own lobbies or tournaments and it will naturally grow into something bigger if there is an interest for it. That way if the E-Sports thing doesn't work out for whatever reason, the community can still utilize those same systems to create their own tournaments or competitive scene.
Competitive would be the Arena teams that already has a leaderboard in place and in future an ELO system
However they also very fervently participated in the destruction of the 3v3 brackets and open wrold PvP
That kind of temporarly blinded to the other facts. They did not do anything about the things that were as far as PvP hindering it. Very very very very simple things like dps distribution among classes. Top dps for one class on avergage170k (dps class) in the lower end of the spectrum 110k (another dps) what does this do for PvP already posted in another thread so will not continue with this post.
So this is not an apology just want to be accurate with my post and try to stay unbiased.
The only esport I can see succeed is a PvX based one though, but again, I prefer intrepid forget all about it for release.
Combat being good and complex is the first component.
The Tri-Terror Arena
An 8v8 arena that contains 3 level-bracket appropriate boss mobs in a triangle. Not the same ones every time, it can be kinda randomized, but not too much. That's the balance team's headache...
Players are allowed into this arena, the bosses do not automatically attack. Defeating any boss gives a whole-team buff that lasts about a minute, that can be random too.
Winner is the team that kills more bosses at the timer, where 'killing' is a combination of credit for damage, healing credit on a tank which has the boss' attention, and a multiplier for the last hit (this part probably isn't necessary, but the last hitting group should always be the one that gets the buff).
No rules otherwise, you can go full PvP and whittle down your opponents until their respawns are all out of sync and you can get a lot of credit on the bosses, you can 'have a friendly match where both parties race to kill whichever boss they are better at and then get to the remaining one, you can have absolute chaos with people trying to manip bosses into hitting other people with effects or whatever, or pile all the bosses into one spot and hope Mage AoE does the job. (generally, pulling them too far from their spawn circle should mess with their current targeting though, or something).
Since PvE and PvP gear should be about the same, and the game is supposed to be balanced around groups of 8, one of each Archetype, and bosses should be able to adapt to player tactics, I think I'd have fun watching this, and it could get pretty intense if the bosses themselves were the thing that affected the dynamism of the Arena.
Add or subtract any number of other mini-mechanics, from 'Artisan skills having some effect during respawns' to 'sometimes the entire arena is in the ocean and both parties get two small rafts or boats'.
Point is, I'd watch this sometimes, for sure.
Yep, I can agree with this. Slightly different format than the one I suggested, but the basics are the same: 8v8 PvX fight with two teams and bosses. It fits the game much better than arena fights.
The only downside I see would be the differences in gear, consumables, possible unique abilities and titles, as well as mounts, which can be seen as unfair. Though there are definetly also solutions to this problem.
I'm looking forward for future announcements in that section!
My advice for Intrepid Studios is to avoid repeating the mistakes made by ArenaNet with Guild Wars 2 in terms of esports.
Regarding the various types of content:
Some of these have already been mentioned and are documented in the wiki.
Content ideas include:
- PvE: instanced dungeons/raids for 8 or 16 players
- PvP: various formats such as 1vs1, 3vs3, 5vs5 or 8vs8
- GvG: battles with 15vs15 or 20vs20 players, depending on the combat system.
Additional ideas include hidden features in arenas that can impact gameplay, such as setting parts of the arena on fire or creating obstacles. Maps could also have multiple levels to add complexity.
For inspiration on this topic, I recommend watching the anime "The Kings Avatar" for ideas on arena dynamics and competitive challenges.
In terms of tools, studying World of Warcraft could provide valuable insights. Consider the perspectives of viewers, players, casters, and organizers when developing these tools.
Overall, we are in a very early stage and haven't seen much from the game yet. Not even the combat system is nearly finished. Therefore, it is difficult to determine precisely what will be needed/required.
I don't have much interest in spectating in general, so my post will skew toward the 'nah' side of the spectrum.
Esports and player-run competitions are two separate things to me. Esports invokes a lot of negative connotations. Reading through the posts here, I'm impressed by the specific ideas people have on how to make gameplay in AoC 'work' in a spectator-sport style. My concern is that this dynamic of spectator to player will ultimately warp the spirt of the gameplay by way of taking input from the spectator base and increasing their interest. To me, MMOs are not about spectators and thus I think this should not be a focus for development, especially at this stage.
Player-run competition, on the other hand, ties in perfectly with my interpretation of AoC's approach as well as my personal desires for gratifying PvP gameplay beyond open world situations. Given the governance aspect of nodes, it makes sense that Intrepid wants to empower players to build their own tournaments, competitions, leagues, etc. The more tools at the player's hands, the more this vision will come to life.
I have nothing further to add to this part of the discussion in light of what has already been posted by other community members here.
Yes, this is quite a massive question, really. Some ideas:
-Mayors having the ability to, or able to empower citizens to, design competitions and PvP tournaments using a 'tourney builder' type of interface. Options for the 'designer' would include things like
-Built in tracking and history system that allows those participating in and those running the events to see the history of other player's PvP engagement. Yes, ranks and PvP rewards will be visible, but I'm talking like deep stats. Visible at both the account and character level. Access to this kind of information might aid the prevention of smurfing, twinks, etc.
-Node vs Node warfare by way of Contract of War. I understand that military nodes are intended to be run by those who have achieved champion standing in battle of that node's player base. I think it would be cool to have a system built in where one node or guild could full-on declare war on another, or request the agreement to engage in war. Either in an open world setting with ongoing skirmishes, spies, etc, or in a more formal setting with a separate battle area, codes of conduct, win conditions... Perhaps there are stakes to the war like node boosts, priority access to content (like you win a war and a new dungeon opens within the winner's node and the losing node players will have to expend more time and energy to access it) resources, gold, etc.
Final thoughts: Honestly, I cringe when I think of AoC capitulating to the economics of game development. Yea, yea, I know, I'm an idealist... I don't envy the position of those trying to steer this ship!
In the limited experience I have with generating and spectating MMO PvP content, it was never about the actual in-game competition for me. It was more about being a fan of whoever I was watching and interacting with other people who were there for that reason. The spectator base was almost entirely made up of people who played the game. The idea of having a hot esports game to get exposure seems counter to the spirit of old-school MMOs.
Watching someone else play an MMO always caused some of the magic of the world to evaporate. I might get flamed for this, but these are my honest desires, I hope that AoC enables players to choose a 'stream-able' experience or 'private' one. The thought of highly skilled professionals coming into this grass-roots style game and using their clout to alter the experience of the average player sends a little shiver down my spine. Maybe it's inevitable...IDK. I'm reminded of the zerglings following big streamers in classic WoW. Amusing to watch from the outside, doubtlessly frustrating for those on the inside.
Thanks and Good Luck!
Personally, i really like the idea of a competitive scene driven by Intrepid, like "AoC Arena World Championship"
An annual event bringing together 2v2, 3v3 teams... by invitation according to the ladder.
With final phases of 4 or 6 groups for example. Followed by a 1/4 final etc...
A classic pattern.
Nothing would subsequently prevent other organizations or players from offering competitive content but i think it is good that the studio can appropriate an official event, as a reference.
So yes, it has to be on the scale of Intrepid. We would be closer to League of Legend tournament at the WCG in 2010 than to the Worlds in 2023, obviously.
But that’s what can make launching a game so charming
The goal is to have an event that would also allow players to meet irl and interact with each other, as well as with the development team. Basically an IntrepidCon ^^
Each year the metas and gameplay evolve, we will be able to follow the teams we like, and it will be the culmination of a year of work for competitive teams, an unmissable meeting. It would echo every 6 months with the major PvE event of the year, which would leave time to prepare for the tournament on one side and the World 1st on the other.
All this creates an attractive ecosystem around the game which is unifying for the public and the players. The esports scene is punctuated by these kinds of tournaments which create a strong bond with the community.
A game having an active esports community in PvP or PvE is the lifeblood of the game for me.
To me, it gives me something to aspire to, and push beyond my limits.
Player-run competitive events can sound like chore for the studio, but keep in mind, there will always be an amount of people that is going to enjoy it, and they tend to be slightly more on the creative part, which could give you guys some ideas to what the community wants.
Dedicate some time to the players, and they will stay loyal i can promise that.
What type of competitive, spectator-friendly content do you think could be fitting for Ashes of Creation?
PvP - The Classic of Arenas. 2v2's, 3v3's will never grow boring and depending on the game's systems, 5v5's to 8v8's but I would claim that 8v8's could require some objective outside of *K.O.*.
But hey, give it a try in non-ranked, non-competitive mode first and see how people react to the bigger sizes in arena in your game.
GvGs and *Battlegrounds* with set objectives. Fun, engaging, skill based, pre-planning reward.
PvE - Raids and Dungeons, with similar *dangerousness* levels like Mythic+ from WoW or Mythic raids.
PvX - Modes where you have a set objective while needing to defeat and or hinder the opposite team before they finish theirs. {This is experimental, but if you want to play with the space there, my closest reference would be WoW's Island Expeditions. Or games like Exoprimal.}
Are there any tools you’d like that would make competitive events easier for players to run?
In-game arena environment builder, and if that is too demanding, a way to create a separate arena *pocket* with the rights of moderating it {invite/kick/etc.}. And a way to spectate for players, ex. free-camera-spectator mode, for all spectators, or follow character - potentially to see what he sees.
Final thoughts:
You know, even though I am competitive in my heart, know that the game should always be fun first.
Make the game Balanced just enough, and if you want to have a popular online presence, make it easier to watch, not easier to play.
Looking forward to seeing you all soon, in game.
In nearly all cases the server, the game, and your character will NOT be affected.
As WoW/League/CoD/Valorant and various other E-Sport Tournaments, (And as former contestant on an Arena Tournament so this is coming from experience), what they do is:
- Make a seperate Realm / Server that is only accessible by the E-sport tournament players
- All Gear (including PvP/PvE) is available to purchase a week or so before your first match for no currency
- You are able to make up to 3 fully leveled characters (all classes available)
***Important*** This does not affect your current character in the server you are on as these are bascially Intrepid's private servers soley designed for the E-Sport tournament happening at that time.
For anyone thinking the server/game/realm/their characters and/or guild will be affected during an E-sports tournament, you are mistaken, so I hope this clears up any confusion 🙌
There's a reason WoW's 3s Arena was the most popular for the past decade and continued to be used as its E-Sports feature. No need to try and re invent the wheel
I think the objective of the esports also needs to be discussed. If we're doing it for the existing audience or to serve as sort of a broader appeal or not. If we're wanting to create content for the existing player base who has the expertise then you could go a bit more larger scale as the viewer would then have the ability to observe and appreciate it.
Skip to 14:00
if the AOC E-Sports looks anything remotely to this (3v3 Best of the Best Teams from all around the World competeing for the #1 spot), then we could be in for a wild ride.
Watch and enjoy 👌
Players will always strive to be among the best in some category of the game and as such giving the Players the possibility to easily organise Events in game and "market" them as well would be very benificial.
The tools should help casters to be easily able to stream/record these events.
In terms of competitive content ideas I'd say there definitely needs to be:
-PvE such as instanced dungeons. Possibly endurance against wave of monsters (on a node/castle) which would allow guilds and individuals to practice/experience different tactics against sieges
-PvP with leaderboards for different categories (1v1, 2v2,...,8v8)
-GvG with a bigger arena/on an actual piece of the map(on its own instance, so that the Guilds can prove their strength and not be interfered with by zergs)
Though for the GvG and PvP the amount of players would need to vary depending on how the PvP system develops as the combat we have seen (as it's so often repeated) is work in progress.
I think that having a thriving E-Sports community allows players to see what the game has to offer when played at it's best - these Events could also tie into the economy by allowing bets on matches and could bring interesting dynamics to the flow of money within a node. Perhaps a bonus for bringing a caravan to a city with a big Event, depending on the "size" of an event some other boni?
Lots of good memories and moments of competition throughout the years!
Unfortunate to see some community members and Ashes content creators try so hard to vehemently oppose this type of content. A full disregard for the immense skill of the players and the spirit of competition. Arenas is the purest form of skill expression that an MMO can offer and I would not have stuck with WoW if it wasn't for that mode, along with seeing the best of the best perform.
Ooooh, maybe on really hard (long duration) or high value reward hunts could pop a notification onto global chat or something saying that someone discovered a secret or the next step when someone clicks on a designated item.
Oh man, this was for esports... never mind i guess.
Both are signs of the vitality of a good game, correlating highly with a healthy player population and enthusiasm for the game.
Ashes, advertised as a PvX game, is already attracting a community with significant interest in PvP and competitive gameplay. The truth of the matter is, that Whether the game naturally lends into to an esports style or not, players will self organize into competing groups one way or another. There's a very strong focus on your own server being an evolving world, and it being the playground for such events. I think you've basically got the player-run side of things covered right off the bat.
I'm excited for this idea, but I don't want to see it come at the expense of a more general esports scene, where the very best players and guilds could compete against each other. There is a crowd for this. Our guild in particular has a deep interest in this facet of the game, and I am very much looking forward to seeing how it all plays out.
I think it would be in your best interest to help facilitate this, sooner rather than later.
What type of competitive, spectator-friendly content do you think could be fitting for Ashes of Creation?
Races to significant milestones, world and server firsts, boss clears. These aren't necessarily spectator friendly, but they always seem to garner significant interest from the respective communities.
Arenas are an obvious choice. I have some concerns for the smaller group brackets like 2v2s and 3v3s not being competitive under the rock-paper-scissors class balance. However 5v5 and up might be the sweet spot, with the combat being group balanced, but still allowing individual players to demonstrate their skill, as well as the synergy of a team together being apparent to a spectator.
Note that I wouldn't just scrap the smaller brackets altogether, but I think they do merit some thought beyond a simple deathmatch type scenario if such problems do arise.
Ashes has another opportunity on the opposite end of the spectrum - leveraging it's large scale PvP capabilities. Spin up a server, copy an existing castle from a game, and invite top competitive guilds to copy their characters and participate in rounds of attack and defense. Put some rewards on the line (money? titles? exclusive skins?), commentary, and you've got potential for a great event.
Do toy around with other systems. As an example, I personally don't think caravan raids quite fit the bill here, on the other hand I could see potential for naval combat to work well in this regard.
Are there any tools you’d like that would make competitive events easier for players to run?
Cross server play, private instanced arena rooms, spectator cameras, stat and gear normalization, are obvious examples examples that make such events easier to run and by reducing the barrier to entry.
Bonus points if you retrofit your freehold/house decoration systems to accomodate creating your own arenas. This falls outside the scope of simply making it easier, but is a very, very nice-to-have.
Watching that WoW Arena Tournament gave me such good nostalgia, I really hope if they go with a PvP E-sports it's in the direction of 3v3 competitive play. Arena in general has such a high skill cap and will encourage players to push there classes to the limits, in an Arena you’re dealing with something uncertain and you need to know how to counter them using coordination from your team. A 3v3 E-sports will show more individual skill because when you add more players I feel it becomes more diminished
Perhaps then this approach empowers players to choose the type of arena they prefer, fostering community engagement and determining which node reaps the benefits.
All for themeparking the broad idea but sandboxing the tools of implementation/execution.
Despite that I'm not much for PVP myself, and don't generally participate in any kind of ranked PVP content, I see value for those who like it.
For years, I wished WoW would create a stand alone PVP game so that the gear / abilities / etc could be balanced just for PVP.
I think a robust esports could bring a lot of attention and depth to Ashes of Creation - so long as its handled in a really good way.
What is a really good way - I wish I had a suggestion here. Arenas - perhaps instanced combat?
I leave this question to the PVPers to lend their expertise on. I personally don't care one way or another.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP31ixSBO7GHKLBefWVcJaA