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📝 Dev Discussion #60 - Esports 🏟

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  • Bit of a Negative Nancy I suppose, but I figure all opinions are welcome. E-Sports just aren't my thing. I've never felt the desire to watch someone else play a game. Even really good players, it just doesn't interest me. There's been one person I've ever watched, an ex pro SC2 player, he plays like challenge matches on YT. Those interest me from time to time, but watching the actual pro matches for SC2 or any game, or even watching someone on Twitch (never used Twitch), just not for me.
  • AlzeidoAlzeido Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Honestly? KEEP ESPORTS AWAY FROM YOUR GAME. they ruin balance for average players and the game ALWAYS leans towards high level play regardless of what your player base actually wants. yeah some people love watching it but for the majority of your players? we wanna play the game our way. we dont want to play a game and explore or raid caravans or go gathering in a game geared towards high end PVP, it just becomes an endless struggle to compete and ruins the game. let players be players and do what they want, sure allow pvp arenas and stuff ingame but dont make an Esport out of it, you will ruin the game for all those who want to lifeskill and chill.
  • Alzeido wrote: »
    Honestly? KEEP ESPORTS AWAY FROM YOUR GAME. they ruin balance for average players and the game ALWAYS leans towards high level play regardless of what your player base actually wants. yeah some people love watching it but for the majority of your players? we wanna play the game our way. we dont want to play a game and explore or raid caravans or go gathering in a game geared towards high end PVP, it just becomes an endless struggle to compete and ruins the game. let players be players and do what they want, sure allow pvp arenas and stuff ingame but dont make an Esport out of it, you will ruin the game for all those who want to lifeskill and chill.

    An E-sports tournament is completely separate to the actual game bro
    rvid9f6vp7vl.png
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Alzeido wrote: »
    Honestly? KEEP ESPORTS AWAY FROM YOUR GAME. they ruin balance for average players and the game ALWAYS leans towards high level play regardless of what your player base actually wants. yeah some people love watching it but for the majority of your players? we wanna play the game our way. we dont want to play a game and explore or raid caravans or go gathering in a game geared towards high end PVP, it just becomes an endless struggle to compete and ruins the game. let players be players and do what they want, sure allow pvp arenas and stuff ingame but dont make an Esport out of it, you will ruin the game for all those who want to lifeskill and chill.

    This reads like it was written by someone with Main Character Syndrome.

    A high skill ceiling does not affect your ability to life skill and chill.

    If you approach the game casually then do not expect to compete with people who just want to continuously improve. You chose to lifeskill and chill, then accept everything that comes with it.

    Play the game your way, as people who enjoy competition can play the game their way.
  • I feel like integrating Esports into the Game itself would be interesting, but there could be an option in the main menu to just choose the "game mode" you'd like to participate in as well. Many have talked about Arena gameplay, and having a Coliseum be a way of hosting events in your Metropolis would be really cool and add to the Immersion of the world. That way Players could actually login and GO to the PvP event and spectate as their character in the stands, perhaps even having to pay a fee of in-game currency (Not Cash Shop Currency) or change their camera view to "spectator mode" and follow along with the online audience engaged on Twitch.

    Maybe Ashes could add Twitch Integration into the Game itself so that Guilds could toggle "Live Feeds" of their Arena Matches. It would be pretty cool to see your character in the stands of a really famous matchup between two powerful guilds pitting their best against each other.

    Just an idea to add on to the already great ideas being posted here.
  • For E-Sports there is 2 things to consider:
    Balanced Content + Tournament Tools

    In regards of balanced content you need to consider that both in a leaderbnoard and tournament system you need content that is comparable. A simple way of achieving a balanced pvp scenario is to play 2 rounds and let the teams switch sides and then compare a score at the end. Think of CS where you first play CT and then switch to play T.
    In the scenario of Ashes of Creation IO would think of "caravan attack - 5v5v5" or "city-siege - 10v10" , "boss fight - 3v3vBoss".
    Usually a simple deathmatch is not really engaging. You end up in a deathball where headless barbarians hit each other with clubs. You need a tactical element in each game mode to have urgency. Think of CS again: bomb defusal, hostage rescue etc.

    In regards of tournament tooling ofcourse you want to have any kind of leaderboard or ELO system.
    But more important to get the tournaments and fights engaging and Esports ready are 3 things in my opinion.
    To get the community easily involved a Twitch integration will definitely help. You want the content creation to be easy and omnipresent.
    I know that voice clients are omnipresent and any decent player has discord, teamspeak, skype or whatever, but to be able to get into pvp gameplay wand "practice" you also want to be able to communicate with strangers in an "arena finder"-system. So an ingame voice communication is important as well.
    But the most important system I would love to see is something someone here already mentioned:
    A "spectator" mode: When a PvP match starts additional players can join the match to spectate it. They should have access to a free roam camera and even player-PoV. A simple map would help as well. Game statistics like Kills, Deaths, Scoreboard etc. One thing to consider though is that this can easily be abused in a non-regulated match, so every player should be asked to allow a spectator into a match. If even one says no, there is now way of spectating.

    Thats my short take on Esport in PvP
  • As someone deeply into MMORPGs like Ashes of Creation, I'm all about the competition aspect—it's woven into every part of the game. Whether it's fighting for control of territories or managing resources, it's all about proving yourself.

    I'm totally fine with players organizing their own competitive events in Ashes of Creation. Whether it's PvP tournaments or guild wars, these events add excitement and build community spirit.

    But when it comes to esports in MMORPGs, I have my reservations. Esports tend to focus too much on strict rules and intense competition, overlooking the broader aspects of MMORPG gameplay.

    Esports usually attract players who aren't really into MMORPGs, and this can influence the game's development in ways that aren't great for the core player base. Have seen that in the past.

    Instead, I'd prefer to see tools for players to organize their own events. More customization options, easier event management, and better integration with the game mechanics would be ideal.

    In summary, competition is a big part of Ashes of Creation, but esports don't quite fit the bill. Let's stick to player-run events and ensure the game stays true to its roots.
  • FrankensteinFrankenstein Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Personally if we are talking features that I'd like, cities+ being able to have a duel arena as a building option, and to also have said arenas have an option to enter a spectator mode.

    plenty of people I have played with in other games have used arena type areas to improve their skills against others before implementing them in open PvP.
  • The transfer of goods is a focus of this game. Taking the risk to transfer goods. If possible, devs could create unique maps that are designed for caravan transports. With two teams battling for the goods.

    The match would consist of 2 rounds. One side is randomly chosen to disembark with their caravan. The opposing team, would head out into the map with the objective of taking the goods from that caravan and returning them to their base.

    The match would be a tug of war. Map could consist of contraptions to help or hinder the caravan. I can't fathom the amount of work needed to make this a balances pvp experience. Seems like a really cool idea to me and hopefully some others.
  • oOLu_BuOooOLu_BuOo Member
    edited February 10
    Nerror wrote: »
    Yes to the planned arenas, although I would completely drop any 1v1 and go with 3v3, 5v5 and 8v8. This is not a 1v1 game, it's not balanced for it, and the incessant whining from 1v1 arena players will be unbearable. I would even argue that 3v3 is too few.

    That's just not practical. In every single MMO, 1v1 is a thing; it doesn't matter if the game is built around it or not, and there is zero reason not to include 1v1. Even in games like ESO that don't have a dedicated 1v1 arena, people meet in certain areas in Cyrodiil to engage in 1v1 combat. You need a 1v1 mode, 100%.
    For the empyre !!!
  • SaraphitaSaraphita Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I'll just say that whatever you choose should compliment class balance and not dictate it.

    I'd rather the game not be put in a position where everyone just cries about class balance for 3v3 arena or something when most of the content you do out in the open world will be larger-scale where you want some classes to be better than others depending on the task.
  • AessAess Member
    Hi, what do you think of the idea, that we can gamble on player's head or team when they fight at the arena, or/and may be viewer can go on the bleachers to see the fight?
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 10
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Game_balance
    Balancing in Ashes of Creation is group focused not based on 1v1 combat.[1][2][3]
    1v1 matchups will have a rock-paper-scissors dynamic, where one class will be superior to another.[1][3]

    There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy.[3] – Steven Sharif

    Having arena tournaments with 1v1 absolutely makes no sense unless you only match the same classes. We are not talking about practising against other classes in 1v1 situations in this thread. Obviously that is needed, but that is a different discussion. E-sports/tournaments is the context we are dealing with, and that simply doesn't work with 1v1 in this game unless they make it same class vs. same class.

    The best player in the world will lose the vast majority of the time in 1v1 to the second and third best players if their rocks beat his scissors. Please do tell me how that makes for great tournaments/e-sports.
  • WeGboredWeGbored Member
    edited February 10
    In 2022, the global eSports market was valued at just over 1.38 billion U.S. dollars.

    The Esports market worldwide is projected to reach a revenue of US$4.3bn in 2024. This is expected to show an annual growth rate (CAGR 2024-2028) of 7.10%, resulting in a projected market volume of US$5.7bn by 2028.

    From 2022 to 2028, the ESports market is expected to QUADRUPLE.

    In my opinion, anybody making any kind of video game these days without ESports as a main focus is wasting their time. It doesn't have to be the absolute main focus, but creating a game that allows players to showcase their abilities with extremely high skill ceilings is what it's all about for me when I play video games.

    Anybody can figure out and eventually beat a PvE encounter by learning the various "tricks" of each fight and committing them to memory and then performing them, almost robotically. That's not to say that more than a very small percentage of players will actually put in the time to do it, but it's only ever going to get so hard.

    Player vs Player combat on the other hand is ever-evolving. New players in games like League of Legends and Rocket League are much better on average than when those games first came out. I feel like the majority of games these days have been severely "dumbed down" so everybody can be the main character, and I PRAY that Ashes of Creation never goes down this path.

    As much as I'm in favor of arenas and especially RANKED arenas, I think the ESport potential of Ashes of Creation has a much bigger potential than just arenas. Being an MMORPG in itself gives any player the chance to play in the same game world as "the pros" and have a chance to see how they measure up against everyone else. This is something that's very rarely been done in other games and the potential is endless for each server to be built in a unique way with literally endless replayability.

    If New World wars with seemingly zero help from AGS could maintain any kind of audience, I feel like guild wars in Ashes of Creation and especially moments like nodes upgrading to 5 could be absolutely huge and very memorable events. With the right tools and Intrepid on board, I feel like this could end up being a video game that's going to want to make an entire generation of people get into PC gaming, much like World of Warcraft did back in the early 2000s.

    Now this isn't to say that player-run events aren't absolutely amazing, too. I think we can have both.

    I feel like 1v1, 3v3, and 5v5 is great but I'd love to see the addition of 8v8 too since that is group size.

    Capture the Flag and a "protect the King" scenario could be pretty fun for something instanced.

    I dunno how, but I really hope wars are a part of it.
    ob4olqinudwv.png

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  • I believe Esports are not meant for mmos. When you have organizations and paid professionals making a living out of your game, you shift resources and the focus of the game to the scene in order to get any worthwhile return. Game balance, development focus, marketing budgets, and systems to cater to 0.1% of your player base. All that aside, MMOs are terrible for the viewer experience. Anyone who does not play or keep up with the game has no idea what is happening.

    That said, there is room for in-game events, tournaments, and other competitive modes. I believe most of these events should be player made tho. Give the arena options of how many players, level and gear caps, spectator mode, etc, and let people do their own thing. Community-driven events that would please the player base without attracting development focus away from the main game.

    Now if Intrepid wants to do dev-run tournaments and events, I would suggest doing them in-world (non instanced) events for in-game rewards (no RL money). It could be something like a coliseum tournament in a military metropolis with people watching from the stands, caravan races, and other fun game modes. Note that all these events wouldn't bring that professional vibe of esports and they would be immersive and lore-friendly tournaments that would actually happen in Verra and not be a random RL money tournament. These events would add to the game's immersion, competition, and variability without segregating the player base, and could be as popular in livestreams as actual professional esports events.
  • Alzeido wrote: »
    Honestly? KEEP ESPORTS AWAY FROM YOUR GAME. they ruin balance for average players and the game ALWAYS leans towards high level play regardless of what your player base actually wants. yeah some people love watching it but for the majority of your players? we wanna play the game our way. we dont want to play a game and explore or raid caravans or go gathering in a game geared towards high end PVP, it just becomes an endless struggle to compete and ruins the game. let players be players and do what they want, sure allow pvp arenas and stuff ingame but dont make an Esport out of it, you will ruin the game for all those who want to lifeskill and chill.

    I actually agree with what you have to say about balance but thats about it.
    Esports are a drawing factor for players, and unfortunately in the modern era we live in, drawing the amount of players that puts the "MMO" in mmorpg requires media attention from sources like youtube, tiktok (gross), and twitch. You cannot put an ad on TV anymore and expect to garner an audience that way.
    Esports are a great way to incentivize that kind of attention, and a lot of people like to look at pro players as something to aspire to, (at least in a mechanical sense), probably myself included.

    We should be happy to see ashes grow into an esport if it can, we should want to share this game, because in this genre, an unshared game is a failed game, and the more outlets we have to talk about ashes, the more strength our connections with people revolving around the game will have.
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I hope the castle sieges have some form of spectator mode
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 10
    akabear wrote: »
    I hope the castle sieges have some form of spectator mode

    It would have to be delayed a lot or both sides would get all the otherwise hidden info from the spectators. And if it can't be in real time, a video after the fact is better. Not all guilds would want to have their sieges spectated or recorded though, in fear of getting their l33t strats leaked to others. And I completely understand that. There is the whole streamer issue, but that's a different topic. :)

    Not that I don't understand you. I would love to see the sieges as well, if I am not part of them. :smile:
  • I have no interest in e-sports in mmorpg's. Won't participate nor spectate. I'd rather see that
    the resources were spent on the actual game instead.
  • starkkystarkky Member
    edited February 11
    1. L2 grand olympiad type 1v1.
    2. Also check Eve Alliance tournament system.
  • PyrololPyrolol Member
    edited February 11
    Most of you are arguing over 2 different things.

    E-sports is a once a year held tournament to get people to watch an exciting aspect of the game and get more of the public involved, it also has nothing to do with the actual game

    For people who have competed
    It was a 3v3 Arena tourney taking place outside of the standard end-of-arena-season tournament on a special event realm where all PvE content was disabled.

    You also got a special title for your in game character and pet for reaching a top % in the tournament
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  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 11
    akabear wrote: »
    I hope the castle sieges have some form of spectator mode

    Absolutely not... Castle sieges are the ultimate form of competitive guild pvp content, this for guilds, and I can tell you no competitive guild will want a spectator mode, some won't even allow certain sieges to be streamed by their members, tactics and formations are a very important advantage, guilds should be the ones to decide which sieges they will stream and share with everyone, not developers

    keep spectator mode to arenas, and maybe node sieges since those are not in a controlled environment and everyone can participate,
    img]
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  • I don't like Esports in an MMO but I think Esports could be done in a better way if it was held in a real arena or like a colosseum where actual players sit in and watch in-game and could buy tickets to or bet on the outcome of the match with in-game gold. Imagine how much more immersive it would be lining up outside the arena with other players for the match rather than just being on a live stream on Twitch.
  • KnottiKnotti Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 11
    Having seating in a colosseum is a very immersive idea for viewing events but, do you really expect people to abide by seating rules? Everyone will want and should be able to get the best seat in the house. What if I pay for my cheap ticket in the corner of the nosebleeds and I decide to go down front and center? Who's going to stop me the arena attendants? Especially with character collision it sounds like absolute chaos.

    I do agree that viewing the events from a live arena-like view is a cool idea but to do so the viewer would have to change from their character to some sort of viewing tool that can see from whatever angle they choose. Not being able to fly around the battlefield with no limitations and see everything, but a tool that would allow you to see from multiple camera views similar to what live sports provide now.
  • J_InroJ_Inro Member
    edited February 11
    As little barriers to entry as possible.
    "No gear" aka "the same gear."- just you and your class' skills with whatever the map has to offer.
    The people at home need to be able to pick up their controllers/kb+mouse and "play" and copy the methods that they just saw onscreen. That also means ability/equipment bloat must be managed.

    Though I understand the push for arenas, players will inevitably use these type of pvp games as a way of examining the strengths and shortcomings of class designs. Which is why I think there is also room for "less conventional" wargames like SWTOR's "Huttball" and Halo's "Griffball" and capture the flag, or even amusing MMO platformer minigames like "Fall Guys", to showcase toolkits that are less numbers/output related- especially to inform players about environment and encounter designs that require these classes.

    The other end of the spectrum is to deny and or otherwise preclude X class combinations from participating in "canned" pvp. It may not come to this, but it is another method and I'm not opposed.

    As long as the dev team understands that they are designing a game mode "for fun" and "for information", I'm sure it will be fine.
  • Nerror wrote: »
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Game_balance
    Balancing in Ashes of Creation is group focused not based on 1v1 combat.[1][2][3]
    1v1 matchups will have a rock-paper-scissors dynamic, where one class will be superior to another.[1][3]

    There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy.[3] – Steven Sharif

    Having arena tournaments with 1v1 absolutely makes no sense unless you only match the same classes. We are not talking about practising against other classes in 1v1 situations in this thread. Obviously that is needed, but that is a different discussion. E-sports/tournaments is the context we are dealing with, and that simply doesn't work with 1v1 in this game unless they make it same class vs. same class.

    The best player in the world will lose the vast majority of the time in 1v1 to the second and third best players if their rocks beat his scissors. Please do tell me how that makes for great tournaments/e-sports.

    In League of Legends, the majority of games are determined in champion select because there are champions that will win 90% of games against others if both players are pros. However, esports tournaments in LoL seem fine despite this. Just let the class selection be blind so there is no counterpicking, and you can easily have 1v1 tournaments. Also, the rock-paper-scissors balance you are talking about is mainly for archetypes. It becomes more nuanced when you add augments, etc., that can help you reduce your weaknesses against certain classes.
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  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 11
    I failed to mention this in my previous post, but for custom arenas, since those have no rewards associated and will be used for community tournaments and events, please give us all the tools available... complete customization!

    - options to set group size from 1v1 to whatever the max number is
    - to allow/block spectator mode, have it for everyone or only allow an individual player to spectate
    - to have equalized gear or normal gear
    - to set the match timer or to remove it
    - to allow or block consumables, mounts, pets
    - to set it public, or private
    - to set different game mode from free for all to specific number required to start, like a 1v1 or 8v8
    - for public custom arenas, option to set it for class vs class or free for all
    - have at least 2 arenas options one with obstacles and one flat coliseum arena
    - displaying Guild Banners or specific Logos inside the coliseum would be a nice touch for events
    - allow for access to these arenas from guild halls as well, not just military nodes

    everything you can think off in regards to settings, we want it :)


    now, in regards to the open-world, outside of custom arenas duels are also very important and those make for fun interactions on stream and some fun events! players usually have to find a not ideal "dueling spot" in MMOs, would be nice to have a open world arena just like BDO and TL have, I think could be present in every node type maybe as an optional plot and should also be an option for guild halls or freeholds,

    and please, for the love of god, for the duel system, when a duel starts, we should get a "new" HP bar that is 100%, when we go to 0 HP or we take a hit/heal/buff from a mob, player or anything outside the duel it should immediately end and revert back to the original HP bar, this is not exploitable and idk why developers don't do it, having to heal up after a duel is terrible, also, please make a big enough range so it doesn't get canceled easily when walking around,

    img]
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  • Speaking of E-Sports
    AWC is on



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  • KnottiKnotti Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 11
    I can't fathom how and why people are making comparisons to MOBA games when AOC is so very clearly made to be an MMORPG. AOC is made to be rewarding for comradery, planning, economic strategies and massive group PVP. To those that say make a separate part of the game that is tuned for characters and classes to be all equal to fit their small scale game mentality, go play something else that fits that play-style rather than ruin a potentially amazing MMORPG. Small scale arena requires far too much balance that does not fit in AOC. Classes should not be equaled out to the point that they've been amalgamated to fit a very small portion of the game. Classes should be unique in extreme ways to make variables in large scale battles almost endless which requires classes to be unbalanced in an small arena setting. It would seclude only a few class/archetype to be viable, so what's the point of playing a game made for massive variables. You could argue that WoW has done this and been successful but the longevity/initial popularity of the game is a large part of that reason for the success and we all know vanilla was the best era,.Which didn't have arena and when it was introduced it was dominated by very specific class/specs. And now the game is honestly terrible because they've catered to the notion of equality.
  • PyrololPyrolol Member
    edited February 12
    Knotti wrote: »
    You could argue that WoW has done this and been successful but the longevity/initial popularity of the game is a large part of that reason for the success and we all know vanilla was the best era,.Which didn't have arena and when it was introduced it was dominated by very specific class/specs. And now the game is honestly terrible because they've catered to the notion of equality.

    No way Vanilla was the best, I played every expansion and it felt like it got boring at a certain point

    Arena was added in TBC and it was an intense end game small scale competitive mode which added to the game immensely for PvPers, WOTLK was the best expac because it was the best designed out of all the expacs, Hardcore PvPer's participated in raids, dungeons etc, until they had the best gear for the Arena, the best part was you didn’t have to, it’s only if you wanted to get the BIS and you could also do it as you were progressing up the ranks still getting to experience everything the game had to offer
    There is a reason WOTLK was the highest populated MMORPG of all time

    Small scale PvP might not be what suits you but I disagree from not letting people play Ashes how THEY want to play it

    Also, the balances can be made specifically for the Arena and not have any effect on the Open World…
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