As I see it, the only interesting competitive parts about an MMORPG are races to see who kills a specific enemy first, or PvP. I am personally more interested on the latter. I believe that grand scale guild versus guild battles would be, not only an innovative practice but also entertaining to watch, and of course, play. Having those, on top of some kind of "battleground" mode with a reduced number of players per team and different objectives, maybe varying depending on the map (King of the hill, capture the flag...)
To be able to have competitive events, as I see it, there would be two ways:
1) Having the player's actual character being able to compete in these events, and so the equipment gathered would be an important factor in deciding the result of a match. (On top of the player's skill)
2) Having a "competition realm" usable on permanence, where everything is obtainable very easily and every competitor would then be able to have a perfectly geared character and only skill would decide the victor.
In my case, I believe gathering equipment is an essential part of an MMORPG, and so I would be inclined towards the first option.
In any case, the option to organize events, from guild versus guild private match to player-run regional tournament, should in my opinion be available to any player. Setting up a date on an in game calendar, sending invitations in game or via forum would be a way to do it. As for the place of the matches, I believe there should be an instanced zone where those could happen, with players being able to "teleport" or "fast travel" there in some way. This way, it wouldn't matter where a player or a guild is situated in the world map, if they want to have a match together, they could, without influence on the world.
Our guild is looking forward to the possibility of esports in Ashes. Make the game fun to play first above everything else, if players want high competitive gameplay esports will develop naturally over time. Do not compromise on you're game design to make esports a "thing".
I believe this game has a potential for Esports in both PvP and PvE. Compared to other games where developers only bothered to consider Esports way too late into the development, this game still has the chance to consider the Esports in most of the development steps.
It would almost be an old wish coming true if Ashes would push the Competitive scene in PvPvE to be Esports ready.
But the expectations still are that the main focus of the game development should still be outside of Esports.
Lots of good memories and moments of competition throughout the years!
Unfortunate to see some community members and Ashes content creators try so hard to vehemently oppose this type of content. A full disregard for the immense skill of the players and the spirit of competition. Arenas is the purest form of skill expression that an MMO can offer and I would not have stuck with WoW if it wasn't for that mode, along with seeing the best of the best perform.
Finally, someone here with the same train of thought
Player-run tournaments are great, but please don't even consider esports seriously. Not for launch.
Give tools for the arenas and parlor games and some generalised tournament framework that players can use to fill in their own content.
Basically just a button that says "Create Tournament", have them select a format, provide a description of the event, and then use the bulletin boards in the nodes to let players register for the tournament. This way players can make their own races, or silly emote tournament, or poetry competition.
Once Ashes is well established and has matured a little, look at which player-run tournament is the most popular, and then maybe consider taking that up as an esport.
There are a few things that might be possible for esport type events that I could think of:
Dungeon rush events - 8-player groups compete over the fastest objective completion in a dungeon that is not known to them beforehand; e.g. a maze to find the center or killing a boss, finding special ingredients in a cave system etc
Jump and Run - Having an event where player compete in a mountain/tower climb, while only having access to limited abilities and items (depending on their class)
(treasure) hunts - finding a certain object in a certain area and retrieving it > this might be interesting especially for gathering professions who could have special events in that regard with for example unique breeds for tamers as a reward
Boat races - If the naval systems allows for that, I think having races would be truly awesome
I haven't read any of the other comments so far but I would personally be hyped about an 8v8 instanced PvP arena type of thing.
I'd not be a fan of 1v1 or 3v3 arenas since the classes are being balanced around group pvp from my understanding.
I think Caravan system would not be great for esports and I'm not generally interested in PvE or race to world first dungeon/raids but I'm sure many others are.
I think esports in the MMOgenre generally just doesn't really work since the games are played so differently to FPS/MOBAs. Let's take WoW for example:
WoW world firsts are generally a grindfest and a lot more than just playing the game goes into the race such as gear grinding, buying Pre-BIS gear etc. It's not a fun/fair system and that's just because WoW is not developed with Esports in mind.
If Ashes decides they want to see player-run tournaments or even run some themselves...the game would have to change a lot from what it is right now imo.
adding a group pvp instance would be great though and I would 100% take part in something along those lines.
This is a great opportunity for Intrepid to do what they do best and be creative.
I don't think esports in the form of Arena is the direction but something that leverages their PvX and systems would be the route to take.
I still think arenas should be sanctioned pvp events and thus not have associated death penalties. Arenas should be totally skill based competition rather than short lived moments of glorified equipment over skill. If skill is the determinant factor and not economics, I feel e-sports would be far more viable as a concept.
My main/only request is that you guys also consider the PvE scene. It seems some in the community dont seem to regard this as even being a thing, and I can assure you that is not the case. Im sure you guys know this of course having the backgrounds that you do, but my only request is that you dont forget about that cohort.
The basics are all I can think of atm, so useful in game features like timers, easy reset ability, and other quality of life things. I think some of this will have to come from requests after play testing and Im sure you guys can think of all the basics.
Esports type content is basically my whole reason for playing (and a lot of others). A high skill ceiling is important for retaining players by encouraging them to grow and improve, and for creating interesting streaming content that draws in viewers and grows the community. Esports is the epitome of this, and the true endgame for most players (both pvp and pve) if there is content that is designed, supported, and balanced for both groups of players, such as competitive pve and pvp events.
The misconception-
I think there is a big misconception about mmos primary market being casual pve players. It might be that way now, but that's mainly due to a lack of well made mmos to fill in the gap in the market. Basically I think most mmo players nowadays are casual, because thats who mmos are designed around nowadays. The companies have pushed away the competitive players with bad design decisions like pay to win, not understanding that there are an enormous amount of competitive players that would play a competitive mmo if it met the right criteria (such as fair, balanced, and fun combat with no pay to win). You only have to look at some of the most popular games in the world to see the market for pvp/competitive games (league of legends, Fortnite, Call of Duty, CSGO, and many, many more games acrossed all sorts of genres). As you can see, 'in a vacuum' pvp and competition draws a lot more people in than those who it pushes away when it is done properly, and is not the problem with mmos that fail, its actually the exact opposite and is a lack-thereof, and failed execution that causes these pvp mmos to fail. Even if players end up playing these games at a casual manner, there is still that competitive drive and incentive that keeps these players coming back. I am but one nerd, a prime example of a player in this category, as I am a competitive pvp gamer who is not interested in many of the pvp/competitive mmos on the market due to some of the design flaws ive already mentioned. Not having this content might satisfy a portion of vocal casual players in the short term, but it will push away more players than you realize, especially in the long term when players start to get bored and leave. I think Ashes already has a lot of what it takes address the flaws in other mmos with competition and pvp, and has the potential to draw in these types of players (hense why im here, and a lot of others on these forums from what ive learned over my time here) but is still missing that key esports and competitive element that would really draw these types in and incentivizes them to stay long-term. I am confident Steven understands most of this, as Ive heard him speak of the "golden cohort" group of players he hopes to bring back into the genre, and I hope he understands the role that endgame high level competitive play will factor into bringing a lot of these types of players in and keeping them playing.
Here are some suggestions on how to better design around the esports/competitive type of content:
1. Fun gameplay
You can do everything else but if the gameplay isn't as fun as alternative options, then its probably not gonna be a great competitive scene. Minimal rng is also a big aspect of both fun and fair fights.
2. Fair fights
Competitve play needs to be fair, or its not gonna be as fun for those competing.
A) Balanced pvp
There needs to be balanced pvp. This includes the 1v1 game mode. There is zero reason that the game cant simultaneously be balanced for both solo and group play while still rewarding group strategy. The open world is more about collaberation and strategy than 1v1 prowess so its okay if you have rock paper scissors balancing for those 1v1 situations. However arena 1v1 pvp is you vs the other guy with no outside interference, and it needs to be balanced or it will be hot garbage and not competitive. 1v1s are non-negotiable either for an ideal competitive scene, because at the end of the day, each player is an individual and there are a lot of solo players that want to be able to see how they compare to others, and want to have full control over an outcome without relying on others. And like others have pointed out, players will organize 1v1s, and lots of other types of competitions/content regardless of dev support, so its better that the game supports and balances these things as best as possible. I think thats okay too, because a big part of mmos is providing a space for all sorts of players, catering to different playstyles, and providing a lot of different options and types of experiences. That being said, there doesn't have to be a balancing conundrum of group or 1v1 class balancing. You can have the non open-world 1v1 content balanced on its own. I liked the idea proposed a while back about 1v1s using a special 'gladiator' character that is balanced for 1v1s, that players can build and customize. That way you can have the Rock paper scissors class balance for larger scale content and out on the open world, while also having fun and balanced solo content in competitive small scale arena fights. This sounds like a nice middle ground that I would be happy with. This would allow for dynamic balancing for all types of content to accomodate all players, and it would also allow for players of different playstyles and strategies to face off through their gladiator, similar to different classes in the open world, but in a balanced way, without being restricted to only fighting other players within the same class in order to have balanced fights.
B- Equalized levels/gear.
Arena pvp should be its own experience separate from the open world. This is best from both player agency and a Risk vs reward perspective, because risk vs reward imply that players who only play arena pvp will not be taking as much risk by engaging in all the different content types in the open world, but they also wont be rewarded in those other types of content. At the same time you are honoring their decision to stick to the kind of gameplay that they enjoy. This means allowing for fair equalized pvp fights in arena content, or at least having the option to choose between level/gear equalization or to enter a tourney as you are.
C) Skill-based matchmaking for arena content
This is more of a controversial feature, but it does makes more more engaging and the fights more fair. Some people don't like the stress of having to try super hard for every fight, but that is part of what makes things fun. I think the core issue here is moderating the pacing of the player's experience. Games that have skill-based matchmaking usually don't have fun slower paced gamemode options or fun casual experiences that players can switch to when they get stressed out. Ashes is an mmo where players can self-moderate their own pacing based on how they feel, and Ashes has a lot of other gameplay options for players to choose between, so I think skill-based matchmaking could be a great feature for arena fights, to make the more competitive game modes even better for when the player is in the mood for it.
3. Game mode variety
A variety of game modes will keep things fun and fresh, and gives players lots of options and reasons to hop on the game depending on their mood. I think a lot of developers make the mistake of only offering modes that are very populated, and abandon the ones that arent. Even if players are playing a mode as much, they still appreciate that option and it makes them more likely to hop on and play knowing they can always switch over to mix things up when they start to get bored. I can't tell you how many times me and my friends said "man I could really go for some (insert game mode) right now", only to hop on and the game mode is no longer available, so we get off the game and move on to something else, and possibly never even play that game again. I think having that variety is very important for player retention.
I think a lot of hesitation of adding modes to certain games also comes from wanting the open-world to be the focus, but that shouldn't be a concern for adding more specialized experiences, because the open world has the advantage of leveraging all the game systems in one place, all at once, in an emergent way. It is the ultimate risk vs reward of all players interacting with each other. People who enjoy this will play the game this way, and people who get tired of more specialized experiences will eventually find themselves trying to dominate the open world. But that shouldn't mean removing options from players who want that more specific experience, as that will only annoy them and push them away from the open world and the game as a whole, rather than giving them their choice of content and incentivizing them to grow as a player to eventually want to dominate the open world. Having a variety of experience options is actually in line with risk vs reward and player agency rather than opposed to it.
Here are some ways of adding variety to the competitive experience:
A) Large and small scale modes
There should be a variety of small and large scale modes, a variety of modes that have different pacings (more intense to less intense), and a variety of modes for different types of play styles.
Its great to be able to choose between a larger scale more strategic type of mode, or a smaller scale more action-packed and tactical type of mode. Its also nice to be able to have these options to conform to how many people you are playing with at the time.
B- Pacing options
Being able to choose between more tactical 1v1s and more hectic 20 man arenas is a good start, but also consider the having pacing options relating to the actual flow of the gameplay. There should be modes that have a more fast paced flow, and modes that have a slower paced flow to them. Things like a one-life objective based mode that makes you consider every move you make, or a timed score-based mode that has you rushing around as fast as possible. These types of options would add a lot of flavor to the pvp experiences.
- Some examples include a lot of classic types of modes from competitive and sandbox games like Halo, Cod, etc., like
- capture the flag
- "big team battle" with mounts included
- Team Deathmatch
- Free for all
- search and destroy
- Battlefield's objective control "conquest"
- operations
- tons of fun and competitive player-made modes from Halo's "Forge" mode
- Star wars battlefront's strategic "galactic conquest"
- Battle royale
- etc.
- I think it could also be really competitive and fun to have time trials. Time trials aren't anything new, but I think the game Neon White had a cool twist on the idea of competitive speedrunning that is more accessible and appealing that would make for a really fun competitive mode as discussed here:
Its important to consider the different ways that people like to play, and thus the different way people might like to compete.
It might be a good idea to support competitive modes outside of pvp, or even outside of combat entirely.
- Things like PvE based competitions, like score-based dungeon runs/raids
Artisan based competitions:
- things like Breeding competitions and pet performances, like pet fights
- animal hunting competitions like "Monster Hunter"
- etc.
- Emergent gameplay related competitions, such as if players stumble upon some kind of cool unique interaction, you might be able to make a fun competitive mode out of it. This could be something like players manipulating the physics of the game to do funny looking tricks, and using water mounts to pull over like a water skii over ramps to see who can pull off the coolest/funniest physics-based tricks, or something like that. I think those types of emergent competitions are always fun and interesting to play and watch.
- Competitive traversal, like racing, obstacle courses, jump puzzles, climbing, sailing, or competitive "Tag"
- Competitive treasure hunting
- Competitive photography (like "Pokemon Snap")
- Wildlife "coralling" competitions
- Competitive Archery (utililizing action camera and projectile drop)
- Maze escaping
- etc.
- Another possible competition type could be an "Ashes arena fantasy league"
I think it would be cool if for pvp tournaments you could draft other pvp players, kind of like a "fantasy football" league, and compete against other players fantasy teams for rewards or being able to wager on different teams, and for a spot on a ranked leaderboard. This could extend beyond players killing other players, and be available for any kind of player competitions, including ranked pve.
The drafting process could be more involved than just picking from a pool of players who entered the tournament. Maybe you have to convince other players to join your fantasy team, to add a political/social layer on top of the management aspects.
D) Themed modes
It would be great to have modes with different emotion-based themes. Modes that are supposed to be scary, funny, etc., or a combination of different themes.
For example, a scary mode could be something like having some players that are dis-empowered and very weak, trying to survive a very powerful player who is hunting them down. Some very fun and popular modes like this include things like "infected", or "Scream-deathmatch" from call of duty.
A funny mode includes something like "Prop hunt" from call of duty. Having emotion-themed modes can be very fun and interesting, while delivering a unique type of experience from the usual modes.
- There is a lot of depth and fun that a simple mode can add to a game, and entire genres have branched off and started, not because of the gameplay itself but just because of how unique the game mode is. Games like PubG and Fortnite were just fps games done in a battle royale mode and look and popular they have become and how they shook up the fps genre and added a uniqe feel when they initially entered the scene.
- Another cool example is the classic "spies vs mercs" mode from years ago that has has a high demand ever since it was made, and inspired the recently released game called "Spectre".
A couple other cool modes or games that are basically game modes include:
- "Spy Party"
- "Deceive Inc."
These games allow for phsycological mindgames between players and are very competitive and interesting types of modes.
- Here was a really fun and uniqe mode from "Star wars the clone wars" on original xbox. You had to build, manage, and command supporting units while supporting them in battle to take over bases that you could set up defenses on. Between yourself, your defenses, and your units you would try to hold these bases to build up resources to make more units to try to take over the enemy HQ.
Overall there is a ton of potential for having unique game modes with some creativity and drawing inspiration form some of these classics, and whem combined with Ashes unique gameplay and philophies I think could make for some unique and special competitive experiences.
4. Good map/arena design
The environmental layout and "playground" of where the competition takes place is just as important as the gameplay itself. There should be different arena layout options that are fun and well-balanced.
In terms of combat, Ashes' combat has different ranged specializations which means the layout needs to accomodate that. It might be a good idea to look at some other competitive games that have specializations at different ranges to see how they balance and design their map layouts for pvp. A technique Cod uses for balancing the different gun ranges is allowing the player to use cover/line of sight and mobility for the player to be able to minimize their exposure at disadvantageous ranges to ignore those engagements. They also provide paths the player can take to clear basically any "camping position" from their preferred range, which balances those different ranges and encourages more aggressive playstyles rather than overly passive strategies.
The map design also needs to be looks at from other perspecrives as well, such as traversal and other gameplay and competitive related perspectives.
5. Customizable content
Every pvp game i've played has benefitted from giving players the ability to further customize, browse, and filter their pvp content. This is more fun, and makes it easier to find and build communities with like-minded players. Things like Forge from Halo, or the server browser from Battlefield, etc. made those games so much better. Being able to make fun maps and modes is great for building the community which can both indirectly attract more people to competitive scene and directly result in creative new maps and modes used in the competitive scene, which is very healthy for the overall game.
For example this could be customizable
- arenas
- dungeons
etc.
Something like this from the the recent game "Meet your Maker" would be amazing for creating competitive dungeon challenges where you can build a dungeon and hide treasures protected by enemies, traps, and confusing dungeon layouts to stop players from reaching the end. It could obviouslt be used for other stuff mentioned earlier like building escape rooms or traversal playgrounds for other competitions
6. Competitive scene that is actively supported by the devs
i'vs seen games with amazing esport potential that have suffered from not being supported by the devs. You can't always just rely on the community, it helps to have that extra support.
- sponsored events/esports incentives are important
- spectator features are very nice quality of life.
There should be options for different camera angles, replays, and even just live-viewing by allowing for an audience to gather around the fight to watch it in real-time. It would be very immersive to be able to watch a fight in an actual coloseum, while still having the option to record the fight from an instanced perspective if you prefer that.
- as far as the instanced vs open world setting, you could just mix both aesthetics, you could have designated locations in the open world while having them be inaccessible to act as an instanced location to preserve the competitive aspects. Again, giving spactator options is important by allowing people to gather and watch in person or to view from a camera perspective if they aren't in the physical vicinity.
- Another quality of life feature that I think would greatly improve both the player and spectator experience, is having real-time battle commands similar to something you would see in an RTS game, where you can send visual cues on the screen that other group members can see to help coordinate strategies and tactics. This would allow for clear and concise communication for those more chaotic larger scale modes and make it easier for spectators to understand what "plays" are happening and why based on seeing those visual cues.
What so many others have said... perhaps we can have a different, impactful system for each node type that is exciting enough to stream. A colosseum in the Military node is a no-brainer - not only during the Mayor election process but also afterwards... open it up to a 3v3 or 5v5 while the colosseum isn't in use for official games. Or use that system to elect other members that would form the governing body of the node.
Lots of good memories and moments of competition throughout the years!
Unfortunate to see some community members and Ashes content creators try so hard to vehemently oppose this type of content. A full disregard for the immense skill of the players and the spirit of competition. Arenas is the purest form of skill expression that an MMO can offer and I would not have stuck with WoW if it wasn't for that mode, along with seeing the best of the best perform.
People underestimate how important end game PvP is haha and what an E-Sports event actually is
3v3 Arena is by far the most popular sized bracket
There’s a reason there are E-Sports teams
Like TSM, Cloud 9, SKT, Team Liquid…. Etc
You might want to delete TSM haha
The problem with esports at the moment is that most orgs are actually running their esports teams at a pretty big loss.
I would love esports to become a big thing in Ashes but without outside investment I don't know how possible it can be, apart from player-run torunaments.
IF Ashes becomes the next WoW, then I could see orgs investing into some aspects, but taking League of Legends for example, there would be no esports without Riots' own massive upfront investment into every split and I somehow don't see Intrepid having the resources for something like that at this stage.
On Topic: Whatever modes they introduce for esports- they will have to be ULTRA balanced compared to other MMOs. You can't just change champions in an MMO, you're stuck with your class or you have loads of alts. This brings geargrind etc into question and would require the devs to solve multiple new problems that I personally would prefer they don't have to start working on before the game is even out.
I think esports is something that should be added over time...say after a year or 2 of launch since it's not the games' main attraction and the fact that we are discussing esports so late into everything (cmon we've been talking about Ashes since...2017?) is proof that it's a sidequest.
Successful E-sports are driven by one of 2 factors: Developer's investment as a way of promotion, or very significant level of popularity and exposure that attracts mainstream sponsors. And given how bad MMOs are at attracting that kind of popularity (even WoW couldn't fully sustain it's e-sports) that leaves only the first option.
But i think it's worth doing, as it can be done in a cheap and "natural" way: Take aspects of the game that were successful in creating competition in previous MMOs and things that people already like doing to measure themselves against others (races to world 1st, fastest boss/dungeon clears, arena formats) and create consistent/automated rewards.
Rewards don't have to be big or monetary, just something that commemorates the achievement and can be shown off (timed account locked flying mounts work really well for it, as well as altered shop cosmetics, furniture trophies etc.) Give people something to make content about as a main point of E-sports, then see how much engagement it brings and adjust the scale of rewards/events accordingly and that way I can see growing an "MMO e-sport" into a real thing
I don't think Esports fits well in MMOs. Competitive is great, but it can be kept with arenas. Or let people create tournaments with set rules. Other competitive things can just be implemented as random NPC events or something.
" What type of competitive, spectator-friendly content do you think could be fitting for Ashes of Creation?"
Champions of Monster Coin Island.
2
Options
akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I guess if there are arenas or equivalent for esports then these will probably need to be instanced, as I see it highly unlikely the masses will travel across the map to benefit another node or perhaps for short duration / infrequent events and back again.
Definitely for stuff like this. People that are into pvp and following the game well def tune in to watch spectator or not. Because people watch streamers play the game and doing some competitive pvp. Helps give more interest with viewership and attachment to the game imo.
Something i feel a lot of current mmorpgs are lacking releasing without arena or battleground type modes people will enjoy doing. Having tournaments and such with rankings is definitely a cool thing as well that adds to the story of the server.
Personally i wouldn't really tie any award to it unless its cometic.
I would like to answer the player run competitive events questions specifically.
I have hosted many games in WOW as a guild leader and had allot of fun doing so. Games of chance were my favorite and the required tool is a dice roll that all can see(this can be party only if needed but open is preferred.) Other gambling games are awesome too, like the 3 seashell game.... Lets not get to PG13 please.
I have hosted races before with prizes. What is nice here is specifically groomed trails that if you perfect the run, you wont pull mobs but you get slightly off, and you can aggro things that will slow you. Player skills can also make this fun, for instance the ability to a 10 x 10 piece of ground into mud. Then i could place guildmates at choke points for the fun.
When in college... my dorm hosted Beta fights. The thing about beta fish is that they are territorial. So a beta fight is where you take two beta fish and place them in the same tank and bet on who will win.(I do not condone animal violence and did not host this) I love this idea for ingame. Pets that can aggro each other and duke it out. Especially if the outcome is based on something random rather than a pet stat.
I was at some point talking about metrics and stats and data and how you could do that better than LoL. Think A dev discussion on what type metrics players want as far as pvp would be pretty cool. I mean you could have all kinds of metrics on lets say 1v1 bracket. Like which class you win lose the most. I have no desire to make a huge post about types of metrics should be in game.
As far as features and game mechanics think Ashes of Creation could do a really good job. Pretty easy to out do WoW. Thing is people like pvp in WoW cause of the fun factor. Classes in that game have a large number of abilities so what classes can do in that game is amazing. I Know fun factor is a catch all statement but in this case it is actually true. LoL is also has lots of fun factor but have lot less abilties. I am playing LoL right now, reason I like this game is : Most champs are set up so that sometimes spectacular things happen. Always a chance that you are going to make a great play. So can the classes in Ashes of Creation Make great plays. Already talked about but it things like area effect ability hits five toons. There is a fog of war so when you roam around you could be walking into the unknown. The most important thing is players do not know what is going to happen not fog of war. You do not know were enemy is at times so do not know were they are going to show up.
One huge advantage that you have over MOBA is you guys can actually do trial and error try different maps and so on. If the 3v3 bracket or 5v5 has problems have plenty of time to fix (most MMOs do not) so...
There could be a 8 vs 8 bracket were you have one of every class. So each side has one hunter and so on. Sounds kind of weird but this is a pure skill bracket. Since every class is represented then game has to be balanced by default. So if a team wins or loses it is purely a skill issue.
I want to talk about the 1v1 bracket and open world dueling. Ashes of Creation already stated that they were not going to balance out the game for 1v1. But really 1v1 bracket would be easiest to balance as opposed to compositions. So if you were in a duel then there would be 1v1 game balance and when in 3v3 or 5v5 or 8v8 brackets then it is group pvx game balance. There is literally no downside. but deuling would be really good in Ashes of Creation.
Lets say the only pvp in the game would be a 1v1 bracket and dueling. What type of features could you have. Win streak aura. A pot were toons put gold they want to bet. 1v1 ladder baord. If the players wanted they could exclude things like consumables like potions and mana potions. Artifacts could be excluded. Item levels could be made to scale to be equal. Best out 3 best out of 5 and 7.
Insant rematch with ability cooldown reset. All kinds of win lose records. Maybe take a look at fighting games to see what type features they have that can be put in the 1v1 bracket. Sounds kind of extensive but no reason not to do it other than lack of time.
Maybe in the future. If Intrepid Studios did this it would not have any effect on the rest of the game.
But wait a minute what if 3v3 bracket was the only pvp in the game.....well same thing applies. As far as pvx balance well if pvx game balance can deliver a fine tuned 1v1 and 3v3 bracket then pvx game balance could be pretty cool. There is literally no down side have give each bracket their own game balace system. This is what LoL does pretty much gold standard of PvP game balance.
The game lead designer for Riot games goes by the name of Phreak. You can just google it (Riot Phreak) He comes out with really detailed information about classes changes and sytem changes and just breaks it down really good.
For Educational purposes you might want to watch one of his videos or two of them not every patch is extensive. Think that this what pvp game balance should be for Esports.
I want to share a personal story in my WoW days I could play hunter and have a herculian performance and beat comps that should not be beating at 2k plus rating. Took like three years get to that level . Or I could jump on my newly leveled mage and win more, after just 1 month of hiting max level. On my mage I was winning cause class was overpowered so to me did not really seem skill based (just got nerfed too). I mean a just recently hit max level so could not of been that good on mage. So would just play hunter and it really was expression of skill. There was a point were hunters over powered. I was just going around smashing buttons getting kills. Then got nerfed and then I actually had to manage my cooldown and be more careful. So playing a nerfed classed and winning is more fun???? No just palying balanced classes is just more fun. . Winning cause you have over powered class is not competative PvP
Really something you notice when you start to multiclassing. So when I lost to a mage ,x,x comp sometimes it just because they had a better class I know cause I had a mage felt king of unfair.
There were some really good mages out there but after a while I could tell when it was just because of better class or if mage was really good, cause I had a mage.. WoW PvP for fun? Yes. WoW Competative Esports not so much. WoW has been successful in this area but because of Fun Factor not game design decisions.
Lots of good memories and moments of competition throughout the years!
Unfortunate to see some community members and Ashes content creators try so hard to vehemently oppose this type of content. A full disregard for the immense skill of the players and the spirit of competition. Arenas is the purest form of skill expression that an MMO can offer and I would not have stuck with WoW if it wasn't for that mode, along with seeing the best of the best perform.
People underestimate how important end game PvP is haha and what an E-Sports event actually is
3v3 Arena is by far the most popular sized bracket
There’s a reason there are E-Sports teams
Like TSM, Cloud 9, SKT, Team Liquid…. Etc
You might want to delete TSM haha
The problem with esports at the moment is that most orgs are actually running their esports teams at a pretty big loss.
I would love esports to become a big thing in Ashes but without outside investment I don't know how possible it can be, apart from player-run torunaments.
IF Ashes becomes the next WoW, then I could see orgs investing into some aspects, but taking League of Legends for example, there would be no esports without Riots' own massive upfront investment into every split and I somehow don't see Intrepid having the resources for something like that at this stage.
On Topic: Whatever modes they introduce for esports- they will have to be ULTRA balanced compared to other MMOs. You can't just change champions in an MMO, you're stuck with your class or you have loads of alts. This brings geargrind etc into question and would require the devs to solve multiple new problems that I personally would prefer they don't have to start working on before the game is even out.
I think esports is something that should be added over time...say after a year or 2 of launch since it's not the games' main attraction and the fact that we are discussing esports so late into everything (cmon we've been talking about Ashes since...2017?) is proof that it's a sidequest.
You know, Riot are doing their own MMO right? They have already announced it will be entering the E-Sports genre. So, why can’t AoC be apart of it too?
If the mechanics are smooth and the gameplay is right, you have a recipe for an Arena with high skill cap and 3v3 is the way to go.
There are three things that, in a perfect world, I would want from an MMO e-sport that I think would help make it more mainstream (I come from playing CS and Valorant competitively). The first thing is an extremely low barrier to entry where as someone who has never touched an mmo can easily log on with a, preferably, free character and instantly only queue for an unrated or rated match, no PVE-based tutorial, no having to get gear, etc... and be on an even playing field with everyone else. The second thing is having in-game paid entry leagues for people who want to try and go pro. It starts with an open league where anyone can create a team and join as long as they pay the entry fee. Top 16 teams or however many at the end of a season advance to the intermediate league then intermediate -> advanced -> semi-pro -> pro. Each season would be a few months where teams play against other teams in their leagues for a prize pool and spot in the next division up. Also, have a system where teams in-game can look for scrims for practice. The final thing is having a game that is digestible and easy to watch for spectators which I'm not sure how with an MMO.
Arena for group battles (8 vs 8). Ideal variables:
1. Closed PvP arena (access only for these two groups after registration)
2. Observer mode (flying camera for everyone except participants)
3. Restore mana and refresh cooldowns (before each fight the game should probably save the states of all players and restore them after the fight to prevent abuse)
4. Custom restrictions and rules (such as blocking the use of some rare consumables, buffs, debuffs, etc.)
5. No rewards (maybe a title or cosmetics, but not gear)
I'm not sure about "esports" though. I don't think it's popular enough to be consistently competitive. MMORPG players rarely enjoy “fair” combat. But sometimes it's fun to fight by the "fair" rules. If I'm wrong, I think tournament brackets once a week would work.
I think this as a format is solid besides the 8v8 I think max 5v5 (depends on scaling though and what not).
I dont think any MMO should aim to be a esport game, as it usually ruins the game, as they focus to much on the esport aspect to try get "free marketing".
But on the other hand i do love battlegrounds, so What i would like is special classes for battlegrounds maybe use the once ur gonna use for millitary mayorship. and make use of those in battlegrounds. allowing us to play pvp without punnishments, and "practice" for mayorships. aswell as general combat practice
I dont think any MMO should aim to be a esport game, as it usually ruins the game, as they focus to much on the esport aspect to try get "free marketing".
Where you possibly getting this incorrect info from?
World of Warcraft by far was/is the most dominant MMO and it’s E-Sports beat the NFL Super Bowl in views 😂
Clearly makes a lot of money
Clearly good for the competitive aspect of the game
Simple Google would show ya all this 🤷🏻♂️
party vs party (8 vs 8) arena fights with spectators.
castle and node sieges with spectators (feels like you are watching a medieval war)
competitive - cooperative dungeon runs with spectators. different parties start at different places in the same dungeon and they all have to clear bosses until the final boss, but instead of the players meeting at the end during te final boss, there will be different times during the run where they will meet and fight each other, fight for objectives, buffs, etc. and acquire points while doing so, then the big fight at the end during the final boss!
Comments
To be able to have competitive events, as I see it, there would be two ways:
1) Having the player's actual character being able to compete in these events, and so the equipment gathered would be an important factor in deciding the result of a match. (On top of the player's skill)
2) Having a "competition realm" usable on permanence, where everything is obtainable very easily and every competitor would then be able to have a perfectly geared character and only skill would decide the victor.
In my case, I believe gathering equipment is an essential part of an MMORPG, and so I would be inclined towards the first option.
In any case, the option to organize events, from guild versus guild private match to player-run regional tournament, should in my opinion be available to any player. Setting up a date on an in game calendar, sending invitations in game or via forum would be a way to do it. As for the place of the matches, I believe there should be an instanced zone where those could happen, with players being able to "teleport" or "fast travel" there in some way. This way, it wouldn't matter where a player or a guild is situated in the world map, if they want to have a match together, they could, without influence on the world.
It would almost be an old wish coming true if Ashes would push the Competitive scene in PvPvE to be Esports ready.
But the expectations still are that the main focus of the game development should still be outside of Esports.
This
Finally, someone here with the same train of thought
@Veserax, Not all heroes wear capes good sir 🎩
Give tools for the arenas and parlor games and some generalised tournament framework that players can use to fill in their own content.
Basically just a button that says "Create Tournament", have them select a format, provide a description of the event, and then use the bulletin boards in the nodes to let players register for the tournament. This way players can make their own races, or silly emote tournament, or poetry competition.
Once Ashes is well established and has matured a little, look at which player-run tournament is the most popular, and then maybe consider taking that up as an esport.
I'd not be a fan of 1v1 or 3v3 arenas since the classes are being balanced around group pvp from my understanding.
I think Caravan system would not be great for esports and I'm not generally interested in PvE or race to world first dungeon/raids but I'm sure many others are.
I think esports in the MMOgenre generally just doesn't really work since the games are played so differently to FPS/MOBAs. Let's take WoW for example:
WoW world firsts are generally a grindfest and a lot more than just playing the game goes into the race such as gear grinding, buying Pre-BIS gear etc. It's not a fun/fair system and that's just because WoW is not developed with Esports in mind.
If Ashes decides they want to see player-run tournaments or even run some themselves...the game would have to change a lot from what it is right now imo.
adding a group pvp instance would be great though and I would 100% take part in something along those lines.
Cleric
I don't think esports in the form of Arena is the direction but something that leverages their PvX and systems would be the route to take.
The basics are all I can think of atm, so useful in game features like timers, easy reset ability, and other quality of life things. I think some of this will have to come from requests after play testing and Im sure you guys can think of all the basics.
The misconception-
Here are some suggestions on how to better design around the esports/competitive type of content:
1. Fun gameplay
2. Fair fights
Competitve play needs to be fair, or its not gonna be as fun for those competing.
A) Balanced pvp
B- Equalized levels/gear.
C) Skill-based matchmaking for arena content
3. Game mode variety
I think a lot of hesitation of adding modes to certain games also comes from wanting the open-world to be the focus, but that shouldn't be a concern for adding more specialized experiences, because the open world has the advantage of leveraging all the game systems in one place, all at once, in an emergent way. It is the ultimate risk vs reward of all players interacting with each other. People who enjoy this will play the game this way, and people who get tired of more specialized experiences will eventually find themselves trying to dominate the open world. But that shouldn't mean removing options from players who want that more specific experience, as that will only annoy them and push them away from the open world and the game as a whole, rather than giving them their choice of content and incentivizing them to grow as a player to eventually want to dominate the open world. Having a variety of experience options is actually in line with risk vs reward and player agency rather than opposed to it.
Here are some ways of adding variety to the competitive experience:
A) Large and small scale modes
Its great to be able to choose between a larger scale more strategic type of mode, or a smaller scale more action-packed and tactical type of mode. Its also nice to be able to have these options to conform to how many people you are playing with at the time.
B- Pacing options
- Some examples include a lot of classic types of modes from competitive and sandbox games like Halo, Cod, etc., like
- capture the flag
- "big team battle" with mounts included
- Team Deathmatch
- Free for all
- search and destroy
- Battlefield's objective control "conquest"
- operations
- tons of fun and competitive player-made modes from Halo's "Forge" mode
- Star wars battlefront's strategic "galactic conquest"
- Battle royale
- etc.
- I think it could also be really competitive and fun to have time trials. Time trials aren't anything new, but I think the game Neon White had a cool twist on the idea of competitive speedrunning that is more accessible and appealing that would make for a really fun competitive mode as discussed here:
C) Play-styles supported
It might be a good idea to support competitive modes outside of pvp, or even outside of combat entirely.
- Things like PvE based competitions, like score-based dungeon runs/raids
Artisan based competitions:
- things like Breeding competitions and pet performances, like pet fights
- animal hunting competitions like "Monster Hunter"
- etc.
- Emergent gameplay related competitions, such as if players stumble upon some kind of cool unique interaction, you might be able to make a fun competitive mode out of it. This could be something like players manipulating the physics of the game to do funny looking tricks, and using water mounts to pull over like a water skii over ramps to see who can pull off the coolest/funniest physics-based tricks, or something like that. I think those types of emergent competitions are always fun and interesting to play and watch.
- Competitive traversal, like racing, obstacle courses, jump puzzles, climbing, sailing, or competitive "Tag"
- Competitive treasure hunting
- Competitive photography (like "Pokemon Snap")
- Wildlife "coralling" competitions
- Competitive Archery (utililizing action camera and projectile drop)
- Maze escaping
- etc.
- Another possible competition type could be an "Ashes arena fantasy league"
I think it would be cool if for pvp tournaments you could draft other pvp players, kind of like a "fantasy football" league, and compete against other players fantasy teams for rewards or being able to wager on different teams, and for a spot on a ranked leaderboard. This could extend beyond players killing other players, and be available for any kind of player competitions, including ranked pve.
The drafting process could be more involved than just picking from a pool of players who entered the tournament. Maybe you have to convince other players to join your fantasy team, to add a political/social layer on top of the management aspects.
D) Themed modes
For example, a scary mode could be something like having some players that are dis-empowered and very weak, trying to survive a very powerful player who is hunting them down. Some very fun and popular modes like this include things like "infected", or "Scream-deathmatch" from call of duty.
A funny mode includes something like "Prop hunt" from call of duty. Having emotion-themed modes can be very fun and interesting, while delivering a unique type of experience from the usual modes.
- There is a lot of depth and fun that a simple mode can add to a game, and entire genres have branched off and started, not because of the gameplay itself but just because of how unique the game mode is. Games like PubG and Fortnite were just fps games done in a battle royale mode and look and popular they have become and how they shook up the fps genre and added a uniqe feel when they initially entered the scene.
- Another cool example is the classic "spies vs mercs" mode from years ago that has has a high demand ever since it was made, and inspired the recently released game called "Spectre".
A couple other cool modes or games that are basically game modes include:
- "Spy Party"
- "Deceive Inc."
These games allow for phsycological mindgames between players and are very competitive and interesting types of modes.
- Here was a really fun and uniqe mode from "Star wars the clone wars" on original xbox. You had to build, manage, and command supporting units while supporting them in battle to take over bases that you could set up defenses on. Between yourself, your defenses, and your units you would try to hold these bases to build up resources to make more units to try to take over the enemy HQ.
Overall there is a ton of potential for having unique game modes with some creativity and drawing inspiration form some of these classics, and whem combined with Ashes unique gameplay and philophies I think could make for some unique and special competitive experiences.
4. Good map/arena design
In terms of combat, Ashes' combat has different ranged specializations which means the layout needs to accomodate that. It might be a good idea to look at some other competitive games that have specializations at different ranges to see how they balance and design their map layouts for pvp. A technique Cod uses for balancing the different gun ranges is allowing the player to use cover/line of sight and mobility for the player to be able to minimize their exposure at disadvantageous ranges to ignore those engagements. They also provide paths the player can take to clear basically any "camping position" from their preferred range, which balances those different ranges and encourages more aggressive playstyles rather than overly passive strategies.
The map design also needs to be looks at from other perspecrives as well, such as traversal and other gameplay and competitive related perspectives.
5. Customizable content
For example this could be customizable
- arenas
- dungeons
etc.
Something like this from the the recent game "Meet your Maker" would be amazing for creating competitive dungeon challenges where you can build a dungeon and hide treasures protected by enemies, traps, and confusing dungeon layouts to stop players from reaching the end. It could obviouslt be used for other stuff mentioned earlier like building escape rooms or traversal playgrounds for other competitions
6. Competitive scene that is actively supported by the devs
- sponsored events/esports incentives are important
- spectator features are very nice quality of life.
There should be options for different camera angles, replays, and even just live-viewing by allowing for an audience to gather around the fight to watch it in real-time. It would be very immersive to be able to watch a fight in an actual coloseum, while still having the option to record the fight from an instanced perspective if you prefer that.
- as far as the instanced vs open world setting, you could just mix both aesthetics, you could have designated locations in the open world while having them be inaccessible to act as an instanced location to preserve the competitive aspects. Again, giving spactator options is important by allowing people to gather and watch in person or to view from a camera perspective if they aren't in the physical vicinity.
- Another quality of life feature that I think would greatly improve both the player and spectator experience, is having real-time battle commands similar to something you would see in an RTS game, where you can send visual cues on the screen that other group members can see to help coordinate strategies and tactics. This would allow for clear and concise communication for those more chaotic larger scale modes and make it easier for spectators to understand what "plays" are happening and why based on seeing those visual cues.
Other node ideas are sure to pop up.
You might want to delete TSM haha
The problem with esports at the moment is that most orgs are actually running their esports teams at a pretty big loss.
I would love esports to become a big thing in Ashes but without outside investment I don't know how possible it can be, apart from player-run torunaments.
IF Ashes becomes the next WoW, then I could see orgs investing into some aspects, but taking League of Legends for example, there would be no esports without Riots' own massive upfront investment into every split and I somehow don't see Intrepid having the resources for something like that at this stage.
On Topic: Whatever modes they introduce for esports- they will have to be ULTRA balanced compared to other MMOs. You can't just change champions in an MMO, you're stuck with your class or you have loads of alts. This brings geargrind etc into question and would require the devs to solve multiple new problems that I personally would prefer they don't have to start working on before the game is even out.
I think esports is something that should be added over time...say after a year or 2 of launch since it's not the games' main attraction and the fact that we are discussing esports so late into everything (cmon we've been talking about Ashes since...2017?) is proof that it's a sidequest.
Cleric
lol...It's not even A2, this is a golden opportunity to hash this stuff out. That's why this discussion is open.
But i think it's worth doing, as it can be done in a cheap and "natural" way: Take aspects of the game that were successful in creating competition in previous MMOs and things that people already like doing to measure themselves against others (races to world 1st, fastest boss/dungeon clears, arena formats) and create consistent/automated rewards.
Rewards don't have to be big or monetary, just something that commemorates the achievement and can be shown off (timed account locked flying mounts work really well for it, as well as altered shop cosmetics, furniture trophies etc.)
Give people something to make content about as a main point of E-sports, then see how much engagement it brings and adjust the scale of rewards/events accordingly and that way I can see growing an "MMO e-sport" into a real thing
Champions of Monster Coin Island.
Something i feel a lot of current mmorpgs are lacking releasing without arena or battleground type modes people will enjoy doing. Having tournaments and such with rankings is definitely a cool thing as well that adds to the story of the server.
Personally i wouldn't really tie any award to it unless its cometic.
I have hosted many games in WOW as a guild leader and had allot of fun doing so. Games of chance were my favorite and the required tool is a dice roll that all can see(this can be party only if needed but open is preferred.) Other gambling games are awesome too, like the 3 seashell game.... Lets not get to PG13 please.
I have hosted races before with prizes. What is nice here is specifically groomed trails that if you perfect the run, you wont pull mobs but you get slightly off, and you can aggro things that will slow you. Player skills can also make this fun, for instance the ability to a 10 x 10 piece of ground into mud. Then i could place guildmates at choke points for the fun.
When in college... my dorm hosted Beta fights. The thing about beta fish is that they are territorial. So a beta fight is where you take two beta fish and place them in the same tank and bet on who will win.(I do not condone animal violence and did not host this) I love this idea for ingame. Pets that can aggro each other and duke it out. Especially if the outcome is based on something random rather than a pet stat.
Thank you,
Locust
As far as features and game mechanics think Ashes of Creation could do a really good job. Pretty easy to out do WoW. Thing is people like pvp in WoW cause of the fun factor. Classes in that game have a large number of abilities so what classes can do in that game is amazing. I Know fun factor is a catch all statement but in this case it is actually true. LoL is also has lots of fun factor but have lot less abilties. I am playing LoL right now, reason I like this game is : Most champs are set up so that sometimes spectacular things happen. Always a chance that you are going to make a great play. So can the classes in Ashes of Creation Make great plays. Already talked about but it things like area effect ability hits five toons. There is a fog of war so when you roam around you could be walking into the unknown. The most important thing is players do not know what is going to happen not fog of war. You do not know were enemy is at times so do not know were they are going to show up.
One huge advantage that you have over MOBA is you guys can actually do trial and error try different maps and so on. If the 3v3 bracket or 5v5 has problems have plenty of time to fix (most MMOs do not) so...
There could be a 8 vs 8 bracket were you have one of every class. So each side has one hunter and so on. Sounds kind of weird but this is a pure skill bracket. Since every class is represented then game has to be balanced by default. So if a team wins or loses it is purely a skill issue.
I want to talk about the 1v1 bracket and open world dueling. Ashes of Creation already stated that they were not going to balance out the game for 1v1. But really 1v1 bracket would be easiest to balance as opposed to compositions. So if you were in a duel then there would be 1v1 game balance and when in 3v3 or 5v5 or 8v8 brackets then it is group pvx game balance. There is literally no downside. but deuling would be really good in Ashes of Creation.
Lets say the only pvp in the game would be a 1v1 bracket and dueling. What type of features could you have. Win streak aura. A pot were toons put gold they want to bet. 1v1 ladder baord. If the players wanted they could exclude things like consumables like potions and mana potions. Artifacts could be excluded. Item levels could be made to scale to be equal. Best out 3 best out of 5 and 7.
Insant rematch with ability cooldown reset. All kinds of win lose records. Maybe take a look at fighting games to see what type features they have that can be put in the 1v1 bracket. Sounds kind of extensive but no reason not to do it other than lack of time.
Maybe in the future. If Intrepid Studios did this it would not have any effect on the rest of the game.
But wait a minute what if 3v3 bracket was the only pvp in the game.....well same thing applies. As far as pvx balance well if pvx game balance can deliver a fine tuned 1v1 and 3v3 bracket then pvx game balance could be pretty cool. There is literally no down side have give each bracket their own game balace system. This is what LoL does pretty much gold standard of PvP game balance.
The game lead designer for Riot games goes by the name of Phreak. You can just google it (Riot Phreak) He comes out with really detailed information about classes changes and sytem changes and just breaks it down really good.
For Educational purposes you might want to watch one of his videos or two of them not every patch is extensive. Think that this what pvp game balance should be for Esports.
I want to share a personal story in my WoW days I could play hunter and have a herculian performance and beat comps that should not be beating at 2k plus rating. Took like three years get to that level . Or I could jump on my newly leveled mage and win more, after just 1 month of hiting max level. On my mage I was winning cause class was overpowered so to me did not really seem skill based (just got nerfed too). I mean a just recently hit max level so could not of been that good on mage. So would just play hunter and it really was expression of skill. There was a point were hunters over powered. I was just going around smashing buttons getting kills. Then got nerfed and then I actually had to manage my cooldown and be more careful. So playing a nerfed classed and winning is more fun???? No just palying balanced classes is just more fun. . Winning cause you have over powered class is not competative PvP
Really something you notice when you start to multiclassing. So when I lost to a mage ,x,x comp sometimes it just because they had a better class I know cause I had a mage felt king of unfair.
There were some really good mages out there but after a while I could tell when it was just because of better class or if mage was really good, cause I had a mage.. WoW PvP for fun? Yes. WoW Competative Esports not so much. WoW has been successful in this area but because of Fun Factor not game design decisions.
I
You know, Riot are doing their own MMO right? They have already announced it will be entering the E-Sports genre. So, why can’t AoC be apart of it too?
If the mechanics are smooth and the gameplay is right, you have a recipe for an Arena with high skill cap and 3v3 is the way to go.
I think this as a format is solid besides the 8v8 I think max 5v5 (depends on scaling though and what not).
But on the other hand i do love battlegrounds, so What i would like is special classes for battlegrounds maybe use the once ur gonna use for millitary mayorship. and make use of those in battlegrounds. allowing us to play pvp without punnishments, and "practice" for mayorships. aswell as general combat practice
Where you possibly getting this incorrect info from?
World of Warcraft by far was/is the most dominant MMO and it’s E-Sports beat the NFL Super Bowl in views 😂
Clearly makes a lot of money
Clearly good for the competitive aspect of the game
Simple Google would show ya all this 🤷🏻♂️
castle and node sieges with spectators (feels like you are watching a medieval war)
competitive - cooperative dungeon runs with spectators. different parties start at different places in the same dungeon and they all have to clear bosses until the final boss, but instead of the players meeting at the end during te final boss, there will be different times during the run where they will meet and fight each other, fight for objectives, buffs, etc. and acquire points while doing so, then the big fight at the end during the final boss!