Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
It would almost be an old wish coming true if Ashes would push the Competitive scene in PvPvE to be Esports ready.
But the expectations still are that the main focus of the game development should still be outside of Esports.
This
Finally, someone here with the same train of thought
@Veserax, Not all heroes wear capes good sir 🎩
Give tools for the arenas and parlor games and some generalised tournament framework that players can use to fill in their own content.
Basically just a button that says "Create Tournament", have them select a format, provide a description of the event, and then use the bulletin boards in the nodes to let players register for the tournament. This way players can make their own races, or silly emote tournament, or poetry competition.
Once Ashes is well established and has matured a little, look at which player-run tournament is the most popular, and then maybe consider taking that up as an esport.
I'd not be a fan of 1v1 or 3v3 arenas since the classes are being balanced around group pvp from my understanding.
I think Caravan system would not be great for esports and I'm not generally interested in PvE or race to world first dungeon/raids but I'm sure many others are.
I think esports in the MMOgenre generally just doesn't really work since the games are played so differently to FPS/MOBAs. Let's take WoW for example:
WoW world firsts are generally a grindfest and a lot more than just playing the game goes into the race such as gear grinding, buying Pre-BIS gear etc. It's not a fun/fair system and that's just because WoW is not developed with Esports in mind.
If Ashes decides they want to see player-run tournaments or even run some themselves...the game would have to change a lot from what it is right now imo.
adding a group pvp instance would be great though and I would 100% take part in something along those lines.
Cleric
I don't think esports in the form of Arena is the direction but something that leverages their PvX and systems would be the route to take.
The basics are all I can think of atm, so useful in game features like timers, easy reset ability, and other quality of life things. I think some of this will have to come from requests after play testing and Im sure you guys can think of all the basics.
The misconception-
Here are some suggestions on how to better design around the esports/competitive type of content:
1. Fun gameplay
2. Fair fights
Competitve play needs to be fair, or its not gonna be as fun for those competing.
A) Balanced pvp
B- Equalized levels/gear.
C) Skill-based matchmaking for arena content
3. Game mode variety
I think a lot of hesitation of adding modes to certain games also comes from wanting the open-world to be the focus, but that shouldn't be a concern for adding more specialized experiences, because the open world has the advantage of leveraging all the game systems in one place, all at once, in an emergent way. It is the ultimate risk vs reward of all players interacting with each other. People who enjoy this will play the game this way, and people who get tired of more specialized experiences will eventually find themselves trying to dominate the open world. But that shouldn't mean removing options from players who want that more specific experience, as that will only annoy them and push them away from the open world and the game as a whole, rather than giving them their choice of content and incentivizing them to grow as a player to eventually want to dominate the open world. Having a variety of experience options is actually in line with risk vs reward and player agency rather than opposed to it.
Here are some ways of adding variety to the competitive experience:
A) Large and small scale modes
Its great to be able to choose between a larger scale more strategic type of mode, or a smaller scale more action-packed and tactical type of mode. Its also nice to be able to have these options to conform to how many people you are playing with at the time.
B- Pacing options
- Some examples include a lot of classic types of modes from competitive and sandbox games like Halo, Cod, etc., like
- capture the flag
- "big team battle" with mounts included
- Team Deathmatch
- Free for all
- search and destroy
- Battlefield's objective control "conquest"
- operations
- tons of fun and competitive player-made modes from Halo's "Forge" mode
- Star wars battlefront's strategic "galactic conquest"
- Battle royale
- etc.
- I think it could also be really competitive and fun to have time trials. Time trials aren't anything new, but I think the game Neon White had a cool twist on the idea of competitive speedrunning that is more accessible and appealing that would make for a really fun competitive mode as discussed here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xi8ZT2h8z9k&t=420s&pp=ygUPR210ayBuZW9uIHdoaXRl
C) Play-styles supported
It might be a good idea to support competitive modes outside of pvp, or even outside of combat entirely.
- Things like PvE based competitions, like score-based dungeon runs/raids
Artisan based competitions:
- things like Breeding competitions and pet performances, like pet fights
- animal hunting competitions like "Monster Hunter"
- etc.
- Emergent gameplay related competitions, such as if players stumble upon some kind of cool unique interaction, you might be able to make a fun competitive mode out of it. This could be something like players manipulating the physics of the game to do funny looking tricks, and using water mounts to pull over like a water skii over ramps to see who can pull off the coolest/funniest physics-based tricks, or something like that. I think those types of emergent competitions are always fun and interesting to play and watch.
- Competitive traversal, like racing, obstacle courses, jump puzzles, climbing, sailing, or competitive "Tag"
- Competitive treasure hunting
- Competitive photography (like "Pokemon Snap")
- Wildlife "coralling" competitions
- Competitive Archery (utililizing action camera and projectile drop)
- Maze escaping
- etc.
- Another possible competition type could be an "Ashes arena fantasy league"
I think it would be cool if for pvp tournaments you could draft other pvp players, kind of like a "fantasy football" league, and compete against other players fantasy teams for rewards or being able to wager on different teams, and for a spot on a ranked leaderboard. This could extend beyond players killing other players, and be available for any kind of player competitions, including ranked pve.
The drafting process could be more involved than just picking from a pool of players who entered the tournament. Maybe you have to convince other players to join your fantasy team, to add a political/social layer on top of the management aspects.
D) Themed modes
For example, a scary mode could be something like having some players that are dis-empowered and very weak, trying to survive a very powerful player who is hunting them down. Some very fun and popular modes like this include things like "infected", or "Scream-deathmatch" from call of duty.
A funny mode includes something like "Prop hunt" from call of duty. Having emotion-themed modes can be very fun and interesting, while delivering a unique type of experience from the usual modes.
- There is a lot of depth and fun that a simple mode can add to a game, and entire genres have branched off and started, not because of the gameplay itself but just because of how unique the game mode is. Games like PubG and Fortnite were just fps games done in a battle royale mode and look and popular they have become and how they shook up the fps genre and added a uniqe feel when they initially entered the scene.
- Another cool example is the classic "spies vs mercs" mode from years ago that has has a high demand ever since it was made, and inspired the recently released game called "Spectre".
A couple other cool modes or games that are basically game modes include:
- "Spy Party"
- "Deceive Inc."
These games allow for phsycological mindgames between players and are very competitive and interesting types of modes.
- Here was a really fun and uniqe mode from "Star wars the clone wars" on original xbox. You had to build, manage, and command supporting units while supporting them in battle to take over bases that you could set up defenses on. Between yourself, your defenses, and your units you would try to hold these bases to build up resources to make more units to try to take over the enemy HQ.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ooGJwJa1OKA&t=49s&pp=ygUqc3RhciB3YXJzIHRoZSBjbG9uZSB3YXJzIHhib3ggcHZwIGdhbWVwbGF5
Overall there is a ton of potential for having unique game modes with some creativity and drawing inspiration form some of these classics, and whem combined with Ashes unique gameplay and philophies I think could make for some unique and special competitive experiences.
4. Good map/arena design
In terms of combat, Ashes' combat has different ranged specializations which means the layout needs to accomodate that. It might be a good idea to look at some other competitive games that have specializations at different ranges to see how they balance and design their map layouts for pvp. A technique Cod uses for balancing the different gun ranges is allowing the player to use cover/line of sight and mobility for the player to be able to minimize their exposure at disadvantageous ranges to ignore those engagements. They also provide paths the player can take to clear basically any "camping position" from their preferred range, which balances those different ranges and encourages more aggressive playstyles rather than overly passive strategies.
The map design also needs to be looks at from other perspecrives as well, such as traversal and other gameplay and competitive related perspectives.
5. Customizable content
For example this could be customizable
- arenas
- dungeons
etc.
Something like this from the the recent game "Meet your Maker" would be amazing for creating competitive dungeon challenges where you can build a dungeon and hide treasures protected by enemies, traps, and confusing dungeon layouts to stop players from reaching the end. It could obviouslt be used for other stuff mentioned earlier like building escape rooms or traversal playgrounds for other competitions
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qKYtr7a28jQ&list=PLse8FKqy-EiOJRbFJcWPDT6aj8xPDHPoE&index=15&pp=gAQBiAQB
6. Competitive scene that is actively supported by the devs
- sponsored events/esports incentives are important
- spectator features are very nice quality of life.
There should be options for different camera angles, replays, and even just live-viewing by allowing for an audience to gather around the fight to watch it in real-time. It would be very immersive to be able to watch a fight in an actual coloseum, while still having the option to record the fight from an instanced perspective if you prefer that.
- as far as the instanced vs open world setting, you could just mix both aesthetics, you could have designated locations in the open world while having them be inaccessible to act as an instanced location to preserve the competitive aspects. Again, giving spactator options is important by allowing people to gather and watch in person or to view from a camera perspective if they aren't in the physical vicinity.
- Another quality of life feature that I think would greatly improve both the player and spectator experience, is having real-time battle commands similar to something you would see in an RTS game, where you can send visual cues on the screen that other group members can see to help coordinate strategies and tactics. This would allow for clear and concise communication for those more chaotic larger scale modes and make it easier for spectators to understand what "plays" are happening and why based on seeing those visual cues.
Other node ideas are sure to pop up.
You might want to delete TSM haha
The problem with esports at the moment is that most orgs are actually running their esports teams at a pretty big loss.
I would love esports to become a big thing in Ashes but without outside investment I don't know how possible it can be, apart from player-run torunaments.
IF Ashes becomes the next WoW, then I could see orgs investing into some aspects, but taking League of Legends for example, there would be no esports without Riots' own massive upfront investment into every split and I somehow don't see Intrepid having the resources for something like that at this stage.
On Topic: Whatever modes they introduce for esports- they will have to be ULTRA balanced compared to other MMOs. You can't just change champions in an MMO, you're stuck with your class or you have loads of alts. This brings geargrind etc into question and would require the devs to solve multiple new problems that I personally would prefer they don't have to start working on before the game is even out.
I think esports is something that should be added over time...say after a year or 2 of launch since it's not the games' main attraction and the fact that we are discussing esports so late into everything (cmon we've been talking about Ashes since...2017?) is proof that it's a sidequest.
Cleric
lol...It's not even A2, this is a golden opportunity to hash this stuff out. That's why this discussion is open.
But i think it's worth doing, as it can be done in a cheap and "natural" way: Take aspects of the game that were successful in creating competition in previous MMOs and things that people already like doing to measure themselves against others (races to world 1st, fastest boss/dungeon clears, arena formats) and create consistent/automated rewards.
Rewards don't have to be big or monetary, just something that commemorates the achievement and can be shown off (timed account locked flying mounts work really well for it, as well as altered shop cosmetics, furniture trophies etc.)
Give people something to make content about as a main point of E-sports, then see how much engagement it brings and adjust the scale of rewards/events accordingly and that way I can see growing an "MMO e-sport" into a real thing
Champions of Monster Coin Island.
Something i feel a lot of current mmorpgs are lacking releasing without arena or battleground type modes people will enjoy doing. Having tournaments and such with rankings is definitely a cool thing as well that adds to the story of the server.
Personally i wouldn't really tie any award to it unless its cometic.
I have hosted many games in WOW as a guild leader and had allot of fun doing so. Games of chance were my favorite and the required tool is a dice roll that all can see(this can be party only if needed but open is preferred.) Other gambling games are awesome too, like the 3 seashell game.... Lets not get to PG13 please.
I have hosted races before with prizes. What is nice here is specifically groomed trails that if you perfect the run, you wont pull mobs but you get slightly off, and you can aggro things that will slow you. Player skills can also make this fun, for instance the ability to a 10 x 10 piece of ground into mud. Then i could place guildmates at choke points for the fun.
When in college... my dorm hosted Beta fights. The thing about beta fish is that they are territorial. So a beta fight is where you take two beta fish and place them in the same tank and bet on who will win.(I do not condone animal violence and did not host this) I love this idea for ingame. Pets that can aggro each other and duke it out. Especially if the outcome is based on something random rather than a pet stat.
Thank you,
Locust
As far as features and game mechanics think Ashes of Creation could do a really good job. Pretty easy to out do WoW. Thing is people like pvp in WoW cause of the fun factor. Classes in that game have a large number of abilities so what classes can do in that game is amazing. I Know fun factor is a catch all statement but in this case it is actually true. LoL is also has lots of fun factor but have lot less abilties. I am playing LoL right now, reason I like this game is : Most champs are set up so that sometimes spectacular things happen. Always a chance that you are going to make a great play. So can the classes in Ashes of Creation Make great plays. Already talked about but it things like area effect ability hits five toons. There is a fog of war so when you roam around you could be walking into the unknown. The most important thing is players do not know what is going to happen not fog of war. You do not know were enemy is at times so do not know were they are going to show up.
One huge advantage that you have over MOBA is you guys can actually do trial and error try different maps and so on. If the 3v3 bracket or 5v5 has problems have plenty of time to fix (most MMOs do not) so...
There could be a 8 vs 8 bracket were you have one of every class. So each side has one hunter and so on. Sounds kind of weird but this is a pure skill bracket. Since every class is represented then game has to be balanced by default. So if a team wins or loses it is purely a skill issue.
I want to talk about the 1v1 bracket and open world dueling. Ashes of Creation already stated that they were not going to balance out the game for 1v1. But really 1v1 bracket would be easiest to balance as opposed to compositions. So if you were in a duel then there would be 1v1 game balance and when in 3v3 or 5v5 or 8v8 brackets then it is group pvx game balance. There is literally no downside. but deuling would be really good in Ashes of Creation.
Lets say the only pvp in the game would be a 1v1 bracket and dueling. What type of features could you have. Win streak aura. A pot were toons put gold they want to bet. 1v1 ladder baord. If the players wanted they could exclude things like consumables like potions and mana potions. Artifacts could be excluded. Item levels could be made to scale to be equal. Best out 3 best out of 5 and 7.
Insant rematch with ability cooldown reset. All kinds of win lose records. Maybe take a look at fighting games to see what type features they have that can be put in the 1v1 bracket. Sounds kind of extensive but no reason not to do it other than lack of time.
Maybe in the future. If Intrepid Studios did this it would not have any effect on the rest of the game.
But wait a minute what if 3v3 bracket was the only pvp in the game.....well same thing applies. As far as pvx balance well if pvx game balance can deliver a fine tuned 1v1 and 3v3 bracket then pvx game balance could be pretty cool. There is literally no down side have give each bracket their own game balace system. This is what LoL does pretty much gold standard of PvP game balance.
The game lead designer for Riot games goes by the name of Phreak. You can just google it (Riot Phreak) He comes out with really detailed information about classes changes and sytem changes and just breaks it down really good.
For Educational purposes you might want to watch one of his videos or two of them not every patch is extensive. Think that this what pvp game balance should be for Esports.
I want to share a personal story in my WoW days I could play hunter and have a herculian performance and beat comps that should not be beating at 2k plus rating. Took like three years get to that level . Or I could jump on my newly leveled mage and win more, after just 1 month of hiting max level. On my mage I was winning cause class was overpowered so to me did not really seem skill based (just got nerfed too). I mean a just recently hit max level so could not of been that good on mage. So would just play hunter and it really was expression of skill. There was a point were hunters over powered. I was just going around smashing buttons getting kills. Then got nerfed and then I actually had to manage my cooldown and be more careful. So playing a nerfed classed and winning is more fun???? No just palying balanced classes is just more fun. . Winning cause you have over powered class is not competative PvP
Really something you notice when you start to multiclassing. So when I lost to a mage ,x,x comp sometimes it just because they had a better class I know cause I had a mage felt king of unfair.
There were some really good mages out there but after a while I could tell when it was just because of better class or if mage was really good, cause I had a mage.. WoW PvP for fun? Yes. WoW Competative Esports not so much. WoW has been successful in this area but because of Fun Factor not game design decisions.
I
You know, Riot are doing their own MMO right? They have already announced it will be entering the E-Sports genre. So, why can’t AoC be apart of it too?
If the mechanics are smooth and the gameplay is right, you have a recipe for an Arena with high skill cap and 3v3 is the way to go.
I think this as a format is solid besides the 8v8 I think max 5v5 (depends on scaling though and what not).
But on the other hand i do love battlegrounds, so What i would like is special classes for battlegrounds maybe use the once ur gonna use for millitary mayorship. and make use of those in battlegrounds. allowing us to play pvp without punnishments, and "practice" for mayorships. aswell as general combat practice
Where you possibly getting this incorrect info from?
World of Warcraft by far was/is the most dominant MMO and it’s E-Sports beat the NFL Super Bowl in views 😂
Clearly makes a lot of money
Clearly good for the competitive aspect of the game
Simple Google would show ya all this 🤷🏻♂️
castle and node sieges with spectators (feels like you are watching a medieval war)
competitive - cooperative dungeon runs with spectators. different parties start at different places in the same dungeon and they all have to clear bosses until the final boss, but instead of the players meeting at the end during te final boss, there will be different times during the run where they will meet and fight each other, fight for objectives, buffs, etc. and acquire points while doing so, then the big fight at the end during the final boss!
I love PvP sports so 3v3 or 4v4 Arenas would be really cool.
In arena gear should be equal in power level.
Eveyone should be able to stream the event.
Intros for Teams and players to hype the match.
Champions should be inmortalize in the game in some form.