“In my opinion, the only way to conquer stage fright is to get up on stage and play. Every time you play another show, it gets better and better.”
- Taylor Swift
I hope this is just talking about Arenas, because none of the open-world content will ever be fit for "esports." It's way too unbalanced, and not interesting for outside spectators. Surely that's obvious enough that I don't have to elaborate, right?
As for what gamemodes/rules would be best, I think Ashes should keep it simple. Start with small team deathmatch arenas (5-8 players per team). Add some objective-based modes with slightly larger teams (8-12), like capture-the-flag, point control, and payload caravan race. Open-world content fills the large-scale niche, so no need to make huge battleground arenas.
Gear balance is paramount if you want it to be actually competitive/spectate-able, so normalize the gear in arenas, or at least create separate divisions based on gearscore.
I don't think there needs to be a whole skill-rating system, just have regular tournaments, and allow players to host their own. But again, division might help to keep it roughly balanced. Put better rewards in higher tourneys obviously.
And allow each team to ban at least one class, because there's likely to be some broken stuff, given all the classes and augments.
(Actually, hold on, random thought... keep it simple just for the competitive modes. Get crazy with the casual modes. And once the arena system is established, you could use casual modes as a testbed for weird mechanics/objectives that you want to add to castle/node sieges.)
For tools, I don't have many ideas. Just give players the ability to host tournaments in-game, and make it easy to sign up. And I think I'd prefer to spectate as a ghost in the instance (can move around, character model replaced by a wisp, invisible to others), rather than top-down or whatever. Oh, and it would be great if spectators could see icons over the combatants' HP bars, for crucial cooldowns like stunbreaks.
I don't think anyone has said that having an aspect of "e-sports" in the game would be a bad thing. Most argument has been against a PVP ladder and small scale arena.
This post is about E-Sports and its integration into Ashes, if you want to talk about your thoughts on arena
Also what did you think of the PvE side of things (Guild Trials for Server First Boss) incorporated into the E-Sports (as previously mentioned) so there’s a selection of content for both PvP and PvE fans?
E-sports have always been a bit of a tough sell in MMORPGs due to their complexity. It isn't fun to watch something when you don't have any what's going on. Even if you're an experienced player they can be difficult to follow.
Something smaller scale and more community-building could be a sort of coliseum building or just a fighting pit that has a leaderboard. Ideally it wouldn't be instanced, so players could hang around, watch, socialize, but would have systems in place to ensure evenly-matched fights.
E-sports have always been a bit of a tough sell in MMORPGs due to their complexity. It isn't fun to watch something when you don't have any what's going on. Even if you're an experienced player they can be difficult to follow.
Something smaller scale and more community-building could be a sort of coliseum building or just a fighting pit that has a leaderboard. Ideally it wouldn't be instanced, so players could hang around, watch, socialize, but would have systems in place to ensure evenly-matched fights.
Last year hit record breaking views for WoW
I think E-Sports has a place in MMO’s, maybe later on as Ashes progresses and popularity grows
If there are any esports in ashes to start, it should be strictly player run. This way the competitions will develop organically. You will not have to struggle with figuring out what players want. The most popular events will be filtered to the top on their own.
What you should develop are tools. Similar to the RP discussion we had here a few weeks back. Give players something they can use to create a setting like an arena or a cage match or a joisting field. Then if possible let them set basic rules and parameters.
In this way your players will show you what they like. The popular stuff will last and grow. You will then know what to further develop.
What are your thoughts on esports and player-run competitive events in the MMORPG genre? What type of competitive, spectator-friendly content do you think could be fitting for Ashes of Creation? Are there any tools you’d like that would make competitive events easier for players to run?
In my book, the MMORPG genre do not belong in e-sports.
A tournament supported by city buildings like arena with a dedicated area for fights to take place, and for spectators to watch and cheer on their champion, as well as stalls for vendors and bookies for bets would be awesome.
With a solid structure, this could be awesome. A city could arrange a local tournament to find a champion to represent the city in a statewide tournament.
Make it rooted in lore, and a part of the game, but please avoid the typical commercial out-of-game and out-of-character sports event.
I don't have much to add due to time constraints, but from the very first moments I saw Ashes of Creation, I simply could not think of it as NOT being or becoming an esports MMO title very quickly.
The potential of this title dwarfs all other MMOs combined together, and some shooters to boot.
MMOs 100% belong to the e-sports genre, unlike what other people say, shooters are far easier for players to go pro in, but MMOs require real thought and skill put into it, far above and beyond your physical reaction speed which is what makes 90% of a pro shooter player, in shooters as long as you have reaction speed, you're 90% of the way to be a pro, if you don't then no amount of knowledge or skill will help you go pro.
I honestly feel like going for E-Sport is not in the best interest of the game for small scale PVP. As it is, there's no balance around 1v1 and in general it is a game of rock/paper/scissors where class combinations are concerned, but if there is a push for 3v3 as an E-Sport, then in some way shape or form there will be a definitive meta. AOC purports variation and class individuality, but inevitably this will go away due in part to conformity of what is considered essential for success in E-Sports.
The negative tickle down effects can be seen in games like League of Legends, where majority of the player base is not at the level of competition for E-Sports, though the necessary changes made to champions so that they aren't completely overpowered in the competitive scene, are pushed down directly to said player base.
Another example is World of Warcraft where it seems that every class has its own full heal ability, or what used to be a unique feature to some classes, is now available in others, just so they can all have incredible survivability. Hunters can stealth and also have a shield wall; both mechanics that were for several years, unique to the rogue and warrior classes respectively. While this may be seen as a net positive on quality of life, it strips away the individuality and sometimes core themes of what a class fantasy is. Not saying I am entirely against it, however I do feel like some of the overlap lowers the skill ceiling.
All that being said, for E-Sports, if AOC were to partake in it, I would love to see castle sieges be televised. For a long time I played the original (North American) version of Lineage: The Blood Pledge, and castle sieges were one of the most fun times I ever had; they were exponentially better on private servers once Lineage officially closed its doors. Though at times it could be simply a waiting game for an enemy to attack or commit, the inevitable bloodbaths would spawn trash talk and rivalry alike across the board, and always lead to conflict, which I believe is what made games like Lineage such a success.
Dear lord no.... Please no. Not every game needs to be an Esport and most that try dump tons of money and resources into in only to fail. Why? Because their are games out there that are Esports titles first. They draw the competitive crowd and they fill that role. AOC is and should be an MMO first. If it also trys to be a Esport it's going to just waste tons of money and resources and fail.
Sure have some PvP arena and Maybe a Guild vs Guild tournament yearly (something along the lines of EvE online) But for the love of god we don't need these stupid Esports teams and merchandice and large flashy stages and constant tournaments.
Another example is World of Warcraft where it seems that every class has its own full heal ability, or what used to be a unique feature to some classes, is now available in others, just so they can all have incredible survivability.
@Moofinity This is clearly not the case. Classes have received benefits over the years but, for example you mentioned Hunters, they are still one of the squishiest in the game...especially in PvP lol. I certainly do not prefer class balance in an older game like Vanilla WoW where Warriors dominate and others are missing basic functionalities.
Going back to E-Sports -- there has been evidence posted here that it can succeed in an MMO and many are in denial. Personally, I plan to enjoy all that Ashes has to offer, even if it didn't have an instanced PvP mode. However, these modes are confirmed and the spectator mode is hinted at so I do think that an E-Sport is inevitable in this day and age.
If Intrepid don't run it, another org will run it.
Finally, I don't mind the idea of a wait and see approach. E-Sports certainly doesn't have to and probably won't be a focus early on in Verra. Let's explore the world first.
Another example is World of Warcraft where it seems that every class has its own full heal ability, or what used to be a unique feature to some classes, is now available in others, just so they can all have incredible survivability.
@Moofinity This is clearly not the case. Classes have received benefits over the years but, for example you mentioned Hunters, they are still one of the squishiest in the game...especially in PvP lol. I certainly do not prefer class balance in an older game like Vanilla WoW where Warriors dominate and others are missing basic functionalities.
Going back to E-Sports -- there has been evidence posted here that it can succeed in an MMO and many are in denial. Personally, I plan to enjoy all that Ashes has to offer, even if it didn't have an instanced PvP mode. However, these modes are confirmed and the spectator mode is hinted at so I do think that an E-Sport is inevitable in this day and age.
If Intrepid don't run it, another org will run it.
Finally, I don't mind the idea of a wait and see approach. E-Sports certainly doesn't have to and probably won't be a focus early on in Verra. Let's explore the world first.
My example on the Hunter was the inclusion of abilities that were native to other classes or a core mechanic of other classes being added into a lacking archetype, for class uniformity. My intent was just to showcase, how even quality of life changes (much needed or not) can/will dilute class identity. Something that I feel will hurt the game.
I agree that having an egregious disparity in class viability can be frustrating, yet I'm hopeful Intrepid has a better handle on the rock/paper/scissors concept than Vanilla Wow.
Well think 2v2 bracket is not necessary just takes away players from 3v3 bracket. Kind of divides PvP community as far as Arenas. Have done 2 vs 2 and 3v3 and 5v5 and in my experience 2v2 does not seem like much of a team experience with just one other person to play with.
That is a very incorrect statement, 2v2 offered a chance to do a different composition which was double DPS and made it very different, more fast paced and quicker thinking
For 3v3 it was 1x healer and 2x DPS
I think Arena is important to have some sort of end game content for PvPers like how there are Raids for the PvE’rs
Well if triple dps is vialble in Ashes of Creation then double dps would not be a niche game mode in the 2v2
Technically 2v2 and 3v3 are diffent game modes. If there are enought people that say both game nodes are necessary cause of different play styles then sure. I do not think playstyles are so different that you need 2v2 and 3v3 modes. Seems to me like you are talking about WoW. While arenas in WoW are popular and they have esprots events ; Arenas in WoW are broken as far as game Mechanics. In that game yes there is a huge diferenct between brackets cause the game mechanix are broken already posted about this in another thread so will not repost.
Actaully have read a lot of posts in this thread concering WoW thing is I played WoW from Cata to WoD about three years really not did see the game do to much to effort during that time to promote the PVP community in fact did the opposite. But fun factor for Arenas in WoW is really high and they do have esports but it it not becuase the devs made an effort to have an esport just kind of turned out that way. So WoW arena game mechanics are brokent but they still have a very good esports thing. Go figure. Why? The fun factor is really really high. If WoW would just put a little effort as far as esports go it would explode.
We were just talking about this on the TGF Tavern stream, and a good point was made that in most other games the esport is the normal, core gameplay. When you see CS, Valorant, LoL, DOTA, Starcraft etc, the e-sport IS the game. Not some side-thing. For Ashes, the arena system is not the core gameplay.
Ashes is a PvX game, so any esport in this game should reflect that. For example, an 8v8 involving one or more dungeon bosses that the two groups fight over. For example, they can start in separate rooms with their own boss, and the rush now is to kill that boss in PvE quickly and quickly converge in the next room, where the two teams now have to fight both each other and an even tougher boss with adds, and handle that whole mess well.
Or some other PvX gameplay loop we actually experience during normal gameplay.
This would much better reflect the game and be interesting. I could get behind Intrepid looking into something like this.
We were just talking about this on the TGF Tavern stream, and a good point was made that in most other games the esport is the normal, core gameplay. When you see CS, Valorant, LoL, DOTA, Starcraft etc, the e-sport IS the game. Not some side-thing. For Ashes, the arena system is not the core gameplay.
If you actually bothered to read this thread you will see plenty of proof from not just WoW’s Arena Tournament but other MMO’s aswell having e-sports involvement
WoW’s Arena isn’t the core game? There’s dungeons, raids, battlegrounds, solo shuffle etc
If the markets there why wouldn’t you involve it?
Ashes game mechanics in a small fast paced environment would be exciting to watch, opens room for clutch plays, team work and close quarters combat gameplay with a high skill cap
I really think people are underestimating the resources that will need to be farmed to compete in some form of tournament in AOC. Ashes economy isn't going to be child's play like games such as WoW - it's going to be more like a game such as Eve. There is going to be constant battle in the way of sieges to take points of interest that are going to take a lot more than just logging in, inviting your buddies to a group and banging your head against a PVP ladder. As well as caravans to be transported and attacked, dungeons to run, and an immense amount of gathering. The resources taken from those will be used to help build the empire you choose to be a part of. In my opinion an empire spending too much time ratting around trying to PVP will be a very weak one unless they can manage a large army.
You can’t be serious, that’s not all you do to compete in Arena mate, the game definitely still needs to be played to get all the best gear, augs and enchants etc. They even stated you don’t earn gear from the Arena, so in order to climb the rest of the game still has to be played?
There were times where you would barely even que the Arena so it would make up say 10% of your gameplay for that week due to team online, in-between ques, inflation and to earn better items, so the game is still played throughout its entirety
I assume you don’t know how a competitive PvP ladder works
If you’re talking about an E-Sports tournament
That only lasts a couple of weeks and held once a year on a special server…
We were just talking about this on the TGF Tavern stream, and a good point was made that in most other games the esport is the normal, core gameplay. When you see CS, Valorant, LoL, DOTA, Starcraft etc, the e-sport IS the game. Not some side-thing. For Ashes, the arena system is not the core gameplay.
If you actually bothered to read this thread you will see plenty of proof from not just WoW’s Arena Tournament but other MMO’s aswell having e-sports involvement
WoW’s Arena isn’t the core game? There’s dungeons, raids, battlegrounds, solo shuffle etc
If the markets there why wouldn’t you involve it?
Ashes game mechanics in a small fast paced environment would be exciting to watch, opens room for clutch plays, team work and close quarters combat gameplay with a high skill cap
You can remove arenas completely from ashes and the core gameplay of nodes, dungeons, caravans, sieges and guild wars and node wars would not be affected all that much. According to Steven they are there for people to practice their PvP builds and to participate in competition.
I am not arguing to remove arenas, but when you talk about Ashes, you don't talk about it being an arena game. You talk about it being a PvX MMO with a comprehensive node system that ties into every aspect. Just like WoW isn't an arena game at its core. Yeah, they went with arenas as their esports. My point is that WoW arenas don't reflect core WoW gameplay, and I think that factors into why it has never become very successful compared to esports in other games, where the overall player-base is sometimes smaller.
So yes, I think any Ashes e-sports should be based on the core gameplay of the PvX game it is.
Seems like the people against the E-Sports Arena want it taken away
Instead I say,
Why don’t we have both for E-Sports (Arena + Raid content) ?
Blizzard showed everyone it was possible when they had their E-Sports viewing for both the Blizzcon Arena Tournament and the Mythic Raid (Teams competing for quickest boss downs). Intrepid are more than capable of supporting both, and as you said it’s a PvX game so this provides viewing content for both PvP and PvE fans.
Also to the bloke saying they started WoW in Cata and didn’t see much PvP involvement. Thats because you literally missed the best Expacs for PvP (Burning Crusade, and the one voted best WoW expansion of all time Wrath of the Lich King). Wrathful was the most successful and it didn’t take the competitive Arena players away from the rest of the game content
You can’t be serious, that’s not all you do to compete in Arena mate, the game definitely still needs to be played to get all the best gear, augs and enchants etc. They even stated you don’t earn gear from the Arena, so in order to climb the rest of the game still has to be played?
There were times where you would barely even que the Arena so it would make up say 10% of your gameplay for that week due to team online, in-between ques, inflation and to earn better items, so the game is still played throughout its entirety
I assume you don’t know how a competitive PvP ladder works
If you’re talking about an E-Sports tournament
That only lasts a couple of weeks and held once a year on a special server…
I don't think you understand the core values of this game. It's a very community and social based game design similar to how WoW was in vanilla. If you want to flex your dense PVP muscles in an arena setting you'll have to attend a player run tournament or set up a player run PVP ladder out of your node. Though both will take resource accumulation to feed from.
I can't see Ashes of Creation having a real esports scene, but I hope combat is complex enough to make it possible. Besides that the main thing that comes to mind is something like a gladiatorial arena, where people can view fights in game and get something out of watching/supporting the people fighting. Becoming another way to bring the community together, through encouraging people to be invested in players or teams, a way to test/scout people, and a way to gain fame throughout the server.
Before you start. I must inform you that I use a translator to convey my thoughts. And the translation may not be clear. Please write to me if you have any questions.
When they say "Esports" the first thing that comes to mind is:
League of Legends
Dota 2
CS 2
All of these games are not MMORPGs, but are great for competitive gaming. But in what way? - small maps - fast battles - skill demonstration difficulty
To Ashes of Creation
If you propose to organize competitions between guilds to capture and defend the fortress. It will be a total waste. The audience will be small, because long battles and not always saturated.
What am I suggesting?
1. Take advantage of an existing template.
( we need to create an arena where groups of 4 on 4 will fight. We will observe the fiercest confrontation from round to round and the highest level of teamwork. Since teamwork in MMORPGs is much more difficult than in shooters).
The closest example of an arena that has been realized in MMORPG in which I played is Black Desert. Namely "Dusk Arena" is an arena in the style of a battle royal. ( I highly recommend watching a video of how it was done).
This way you use all the basic principles of current cyber sports games on the world stage and it will all be inside an MMORPG. At the same time, level, pumping, learned skills in the open world should not play any role in the arena. You can not tie the arena, to the game progress!
2. Use an existing template from real life with the addition of an example from an MMORPG.
I propose to consider races of a certain type of riding animals. Here it is already possible to make a link to development. Since the races cover a small circle of people. And if the race everyone will exhibit his horse, which he raised and pumped (and I remind you that the track can be difficult and the skills of the owner is also extremely important). Then as a result we will get Cybersport for our own community.
Here it is important to realize that the 1st item is positioned on the world arena and should create interest for all. The 2nd item will be of interest only to Ashes of Creation players.
3. mandatory prizes in the form of U$D.
Money attracts everyone! And at least for the 1st point, the winners' rewards should be in the form of USD. For the 2nd item the reward can be good prizes in the form of Computer, Mouse, Keyboard, Headphones, etc.
4. Tournament location.
I didn't mention this point, but the presence of live players representing the teams is extremely important. The initial selection of teams that will fight for 1,2,3 places can be done remotely. But the battles for 1,2,3 places must be held in a certain place with the mandatory presence of players from all teams that will participate. This is an extremely important nuance. After all, the audience wants to see not only how the game characters fight, but also those who control them. This is interesting. Therefore, there is a lot of work to be done in this point:
- defining the audience
- Determining the venue to gather most of the audience
- Determining the cost of tickets for the event
- Finding sponsors, advertising
- organizing accommodation for participants
- organizing the rules of participation
It's all an extremely complicated process. But I believe in you!
I would like to share my thoughts on esports and player-run competitive events in the MMORPG genre, specifically with regards to Ashes of Creation. I will cover the following points:
My personal interest in esports
The potential impact of esports on the gaming experience in Ashes of Creation
The type of competitive content that could be suitable for Ashes of Creation
The tools that could make it easier for players to run competitive events
Personal Interest in Esports
It is important to note that my personal interest in esports is relatively limited. I find that esports can sometimes take away from the fantasy immersion that I seek in an MMORPG. I prefer to focus on exploration, story, discovery, and social interaction with other players in a virtual world. Even if i find competitive gameplay attractive it just does not appeal to me. I think it is important to share with the devs that some poeple are not into Esport, because most poeple who do not care will just no post. I think i am not the only one but maybe one of the few that will share his thoughts on it.
Potential Impact of Esports on the Gaming Experience
That said, I have nothing against Ashes of Creation developing an esports scene, as long as it does not negatively impact my gaming experience. It is important to me that the game remains accessible to casual players and that esports does not become the top priority of development. I did not like at all the elitism that transformed the wow experience since the mythic + and raid race were implemented, the meta it brings with over optimize routes and builds. I want to enjoy the game and the world as a human not a performance machine. I am not against Dungeon and Raid races at all, i am against the side consequences on all other players.
Competitive Content Suitable for Ashes of Creation
If Ashes of Creation does develop an esports scene, it is important that the competitive content is tailored to the MMORPG's playstyle. Here are some examples of content that could be interesting:
Large-scale guild tournaments: Epic PvP battles between guilds, with specific objectives and rules that can vary depending on the game context (territory, resources, domination, etc.).
Dungeon and raid competitions: Teams of players compete to complete a dungeon or raid as quickly as possible, optimizing their strategy and coordination.
Monster hunting events: Players or teams compete to kill a powerful boss first, using their skills and equipment optimally.
City building / Management competitions: Players compete to create the most impressive and functional city, using the Mayor system etc and demonstrating creativity and planning. It would be cool to have like a ranking for "Nice to live cities" or most beautiful city etc
Tools for Player-Run Events (The most important in my opinion)
In order to make it easier for players to organize competitive events, it would be helpful to have certain tools:
An in-game tournament system: This would allow players to easily create and manage tournaments, track scores, stream matches live, and manage registrations and qualifications.
Content creation tools: Tools that allow players to easily create their own maps, scenarios, and events, using the game's resources and mechanics.
A spectator system: A system that allows players to easily watch competitive events live, with options for commentary, replays, and detailed statistics.
Conclusion
In conclusion, I believe that esports has the potential to be an interesting part of Ashes of Creation, but it is important that it is implemented in a way that does not detract from the main gaming experience. I hope that the developers will take player feedback into account when designing the game's esports scene, ensuring that esports remains a secondary and complementary option to the immersive and community-based experience that players expect from an MMORPG.
If there is competitive e-sports built around arena - i'd love to see it done with gear marginalization.
Let the best players be the best players on an even playing field.
World pvp shouldn't be fair, but competitive pvp should.
Comments
- Taylor Swift
As for what gamemodes/rules would be best, I think Ashes should keep it simple. Start with small team deathmatch arenas (5-8 players per team). Add some objective-based modes with slightly larger teams (8-12), like capture-the-flag, point control, and payload caravan race. Open-world content fills the large-scale niche, so no need to make huge battleground arenas.
Gear balance is paramount if you want it to be actually competitive/spectate-able, so normalize the gear in arenas, or at least create separate divisions based on gearscore.
I don't think there needs to be a whole skill-rating system, just have regular tournaments, and allow players to host their own. But again, division might help to keep it roughly balanced. Put better rewards in higher tourneys obviously.
And allow each team to ban at least one class, because there's likely to be some broken stuff, given all the classes and augments.
(Actually, hold on, random thought... keep it simple just for the competitive modes. Get crazy with the casual modes. And once the arena system is established, you could use casual modes as a testbed for weird mechanics/objectives that you want to add to castle/node sieges.)
For tools, I don't have many ideas. Just give players the ability to host tournaments in-game, and make it easy to sign up. And I think I'd prefer to spectate as a ghost in the instance (can move around, character model replaced by a wisp, invisible to others), rather than top-down or whatever. Oh, and it would be great if spectators could see icons over the combatants' HP bars, for crucial cooldowns like stunbreaks.
This post is about E-Sports and its integration into Ashes, if you want to talk about your thoughts on arena
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/58885/the-arena-thread
Jump onto that ^ Thread and say your piece.
Also what did you think of the PvE side of things (Guild Trials for Server First Boss) incorporated into the E-Sports (as previously mentioned) so there’s a selection of content for both PvP and PvE fans?
Something smaller scale and more community-building could be a sort of coliseum building or just a fighting pit that has a leaderboard. Ideally it wouldn't be instanced, so players could hang around, watch, socialize, but would have systems in place to ensure evenly-matched fights.
Last year hit record breaking views for WoW
I think E-Sports has a place in MMO’s, maybe later on as Ashes progresses and popularity grows
What you should develop are tools. Similar to the RP discussion we had here a few weeks back. Give players something they can use to create a setting like an arena or a cage match or a joisting field. Then if possible let them set basic rules and parameters.
In this way your players will show you what they like. The popular stuff will last and grow. You will then know what to further develop.
In my book, the MMORPG genre do not belong in e-sports.
A tournament supported by city buildings like arena with a dedicated area for fights to take place, and for spectators to watch and cheer on their champion, as well as stalls for vendors and bookies for bets would be awesome.
With a solid structure, this could be awesome. A city could arrange a local tournament to find a champion to represent the city in a statewide tournament.
Make it rooted in lore, and a part of the game, but please avoid the typical commercial out-of-game and out-of-character sports event.
The potential of this title dwarfs all other MMOs combined together, and some shooters to boot.
MMOs 100% belong to the e-sports genre, unlike what other people say, shooters are far easier for players to go pro in, but MMOs require real thought and skill put into it, far above and beyond your physical reaction speed which is what makes 90% of a pro shooter player, in shooters as long as you have reaction speed, you're 90% of the way to be a pro, if you don't then no amount of knowledge or skill will help you go pro.
The negative tickle down effects can be seen in games like League of Legends, where majority of the player base is not at the level of competition for E-Sports, though the necessary changes made to champions so that they aren't completely overpowered in the competitive scene, are pushed down directly to said player base.
Another example is World of Warcraft where it seems that every class has its own full heal ability, or what used to be a unique feature to some classes, is now available in others, just so they can all have incredible survivability. Hunters can stealth and also have a shield wall; both mechanics that were for several years, unique to the rogue and warrior classes respectively. While this may be seen as a net positive on quality of life, it strips away the individuality and sometimes core themes of what a class fantasy is. Not saying I am entirely against it, however I do feel like some of the overlap lowers the skill ceiling.
All that being said, for E-Sports, if AOC were to partake in it, I would love to see castle sieges be televised. For a long time I played the original (North American) version of Lineage: The Blood Pledge, and castle sieges were one of the most fun times I ever had; they were exponentially better on private servers once Lineage officially closed its doors. Though at times it could be simply a waiting game for an enemy to attack or commit, the inevitable bloodbaths would spawn trash talk and rivalry alike across the board, and always lead to conflict, which I believe is what made games like Lineage such a success.
Sure have some PvP arena and Maybe a Guild vs Guild tournament yearly (something along the lines of EvE online) But for the love of god we don't need these stupid Esports teams and merchandice and large flashy stages and constant tournaments.
@Moofinity This is clearly not the case. Classes have received benefits over the years but, for example you mentioned Hunters, they are still one of the squishiest in the game...especially in PvP lol. I certainly do not prefer class balance in an older game like Vanilla WoW where Warriors dominate and others are missing basic functionalities.
Going back to E-Sports -- there has been evidence posted here that it can succeed in an MMO and many are in denial. Personally, I plan to enjoy all that Ashes has to offer, even if it didn't have an instanced PvP mode. However, these modes are confirmed and the spectator mode is hinted at so I do think that an E-Sport is inevitable in this day and age.
If Intrepid don't run it, another org will run it.
Finally, I don't mind the idea of a wait and see approach. E-Sports certainly doesn't have to and probably won't be a focus early on in Verra. Let's explore the world first.
My example on the Hunter was the inclusion of abilities that were native to other classes or a core mechanic of other classes being added into a lacking archetype, for class uniformity. My intent was just to showcase, how even quality of life changes (much needed or not) can/will dilute class identity. Something that I feel will hurt the game.
I agree that having an egregious disparity in class viability can be frustrating, yet I'm hopeful Intrepid has a better handle on the rock/paper/scissors concept than Vanilla Wow.
Well if triple dps is vialble in Ashes of Creation then double dps would not be a niche game mode in the 2v2
Technically 2v2 and 3v3 are diffent game modes. If there are enought people that say both game nodes are necessary cause of different play styles then sure. I do not think playstyles are so different that you need 2v2 and 3v3 modes. Seems to me like you are talking about WoW. While arenas in WoW are popular and they have esprots events ; Arenas in WoW are broken as far as game Mechanics. In that game yes there is a huge diferenct between brackets cause the game mechanix are broken already posted about this in another thread so will not repost.
Actaully have read a lot of posts in this thread concering WoW thing is I played WoW from Cata to WoD about three years really not did see the game do to much to effort during that time to promote the PVP community in fact did the opposite. But fun factor for Arenas in WoW is really high and they do have esports but it it not becuase the devs made an effort to have an esport just kind of turned out that way. So WoW arena game mechanics are brokent but they still have a very good esports thing. Go figure. Why? The fun factor is really really high. If WoW would just put a little effort as far as esports go it would explode.
Ashes is a PvX game, so any esport in this game should reflect that. For example, an 8v8 involving one or more dungeon bosses that the two groups fight over. For example, they can start in separate rooms with their own boss, and the rush now is to kill that boss in PvE quickly and quickly converge in the next room, where the two teams now have to fight both each other and an even tougher boss with adds, and handle that whole mess well.
Or some other PvX gameplay loop we actually experience during normal gameplay.
This would much better reflect the game and be interesting. I could get behind Intrepid looking into something like this.
If you actually bothered to read this thread you will see plenty of proof from not just WoW’s Arena Tournament but other MMO’s aswell having e-sports involvement
WoW’s Arena isn’t the core game? There’s dungeons, raids, battlegrounds, solo shuffle etc
If the markets there why wouldn’t you involve it?
Ashes game mechanics in a small fast paced environment would be exciting to watch, opens room for clutch plays, team work and close quarters combat gameplay with a high skill cap
There were times where you would barely even que the Arena so it would make up say 10% of your gameplay for that week due to team online, in-between ques, inflation and to earn better items, so the game is still played throughout its entirety
I assume you don’t know how a competitive PvP ladder works
If you’re talking about an E-Sports tournament
That only lasts a couple of weeks and held once a year on a special server…
You can remove arenas completely from ashes and the core gameplay of nodes, dungeons, caravans, sieges and guild wars and node wars would not be affected all that much. According to Steven they are there for people to practice their PvP builds and to participate in competition.
I am not arguing to remove arenas, but when you talk about Ashes, you don't talk about it being an arena game. You talk about it being a PvX MMO with a comprehensive node system that ties into every aspect. Just like WoW isn't an arena game at its core. Yeah, they went with arenas as their esports. My point is that WoW arenas don't reflect core WoW gameplay, and I think that factors into why it has never become very successful compared to esports in other games, where the overall player-base is sometimes smaller.
So yes, I think any Ashes e-sports should be based on the core gameplay of the PvX game it is.
Instead I say,
Why don’t we have both for E-Sports (Arena + Raid content) ?
Blizzard showed everyone it was possible when they had their E-Sports viewing for both the Blizzcon Arena Tournament and the Mythic Raid (Teams competing for quickest boss downs). Intrepid are more than capable of supporting both, and as you said it’s a PvX game so this provides viewing content for both PvP and PvE fans.
Also to the bloke saying they started WoW in Cata and didn’t see much PvP involvement. Thats because you literally missed the best Expacs for PvP (Burning Crusade, and the one voted best WoW expansion of all time Wrath of the Lich King). Wrathful was the most successful and it didn’t take the competitive Arena players away from the rest of the game content
I don't think you understand the core values of this game. It's a very community and social based game design similar to how WoW was in vanilla. If you want to flex your dense PVP muscles in an arena setting you'll have to attend a player run tournament or set up a player run PVP ladder out of your node. Though both will take resource accumulation to feed from.
It’s right here champ
When they say "Esports" the first thing that comes to mind is:
League of Legends
Dota 2
CS 2
All of these games are not MMORPGs, but are great for competitive gaming. But in what way?
- small maps
- fast battles
- skill demonstration difficulty
To Ashes of Creation
If you propose to organize competitions between guilds to capture and defend the fortress. It will be a total waste. The audience will be small, because long battles and not always saturated.
What am I suggesting?
1. Take advantage of an existing template.
( we need to create an arena where groups of 4 on 4 will fight. We will observe the fiercest confrontation from round to round and the highest level of teamwork. Since teamwork in MMORPGs is much more difficult than in shooters).
The closest example of an arena that has been realized in MMORPG in which I played is Black Desert. Namely "Dusk Arena" is an arena in the style of a battle royal. ( I highly recommend watching a video of how it was done).
This way you use all the basic principles of current cyber sports games on the world stage and it will all be inside an MMORPG. At the same time, level, pumping, learned skills in the open world should not play any role in the arena. You can not tie the arena, to the game progress!
2. Use an existing template from real life with the addition of an example from an MMORPG.
I propose to consider races of a certain type of riding animals. Here it is already possible to make a link to development. Since the races cover a small circle of people. And if the race everyone will exhibit his horse, which he raised and pumped (and I remind you that the track can be difficult and the skills of the owner is also extremely important). Then as a result we will get Cybersport for our own community.
Here it is important to realize that the 1st item is positioned on the world arena and should create interest for all. The 2nd item will be of interest only to Ashes of Creation players.
3. mandatory prizes in the form of U$D.
Money attracts everyone! And at least for the 1st point, the winners' rewards should be in the form of USD. For the 2nd item the reward can be good prizes in the form of Computer, Mouse, Keyboard, Headphones, etc.
4. Tournament location.
I didn't mention this point, but the presence of live players representing the teams is extremely important. The initial selection of teams that will fight for 1,2,3 places can be done remotely. But the battles for 1,2,3 places must be held in a certain place with the mandatory presence of players from all teams that will participate. This is an extremely important nuance. After all, the audience wants to see not only how the game characters fight, but also those who control them. This is interesting. Therefore, there is a lot of work to be done in this point:
- defining the audience
- Determining the venue to gather most of the audience
- Determining the cost of tickets for the event
- Finding sponsors, advertising
- organizing accommodation for participants
- organizing the rules of participation
It's all an extremely complicated process. But I believe in you!
P.S. with love zizi!
I would like to share my thoughts on esports and player-run competitive events in the MMORPG genre, specifically with regards to Ashes of Creation. I will cover the following points:
Personal Interest in Esports
It is important to note that my personal interest in esports is relatively limited. I find that esports can sometimes take away from the fantasy immersion that I seek in an MMORPG. I prefer to focus on exploration, story, discovery, and social interaction with other players in a virtual world. Even if i find competitive gameplay attractive it just does not appeal to me. I think it is important to share with the devs that some poeple are not into Esport, because most poeple who do not care will just no post. I think i am not the only one but maybe one of the few that will share his thoughts on it.
Potential Impact of Esports on the Gaming Experience
That said, I have nothing against Ashes of Creation developing an esports scene, as long as it does not negatively impact my gaming experience. It is important to me that the game remains accessible to casual players and that esports does not become the top priority of development. I did not like at all the elitism that transformed the wow experience since the mythic + and raid race were implemented, the meta it brings with over optimize routes and builds. I want to enjoy the game and the world as a human not a performance machine. I am not against Dungeon and Raid races at all, i am against the side consequences on all other players.
Competitive Content Suitable for Ashes of Creation
If Ashes of Creation does develop an esports scene, it is important that the competitive content is tailored to the MMORPG's playstyle. Here are some examples of content that could be interesting:
In order to make it easier for players to organize competitive events, it would be helpful to have certain tools:
Conclusion
In conclusion, I believe that esports has the potential to be an interesting part of Ashes of Creation, but it is important that it is implemented in a way that does not detract from the main gaming experience. I hope that the developers will take player feedback into account when designing the game's esports scene, ensuring that esports remains a secondary and complementary option to the immersive and community-based experience that players expect from an MMORPG.
Let the best players be the best players on an even playing field.
World pvp shouldn't be fair, but competitive pvp should.