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Leveling Speed

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Comments

  • mxomxo Member
    edited October 8
    Flanker wrote: »
    While "easy alts" are not a problem for many MMOs, they are a problem for a game like Ashes.
    Why?
    It‘s a sub-fee MMO. It wants to bind me, why should it be a problem to play with alts?

    The variety of races, classes and professions invites us players to play alts.

    If Ashes is making a problem instead a chance out of this, its doing basic design fails.

    Personally, Im looking forward playing warrior and rogue, with different races and different professions, just as example (did the same in WoW all over the years, later on all races and classe with lots of alts, but they were not maintained in the same way, ofc not).
    And tbh I clearly expect that the second char will have a bit of an easier life, because the main can support a bit with glint/gold, items, materials, whatever. Up from more chars it will probably be to time intensive.

    And, everything done in Alpha and Beta has no relevance, all this will be gone up from release.

  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    Zehlan wrote: »
    How Many Hours Should It Take to Reach Max Level?

    Just wondering how grindy people here think the game should be to but max level? Also for this poll, assume that the server already has metropolis nodes, so you're not time gated by the node system when it comes to leveling.
    I'll highlight this again, if you didn't notice it
    Zehlan wrote: »
    for this poll, assume that the server already has metropolis nodes, so you're not time gated by the node system when it comes to leveling.
    Alright, so if you attempt to use the result of this poll as a proof, then it means you consider the results representative and valid.

    Let's make some simple calculations then (you like calculations, don't you?)

    And I hope you are aware of the difference between the arithmetic mean and weighed mean. Anyway, you can google it.

    600 x 100 = 60,000
    449 x 200 = 89,800
    291 x 300 = 87,300
    234 x 500 = 117,000
    401 x 1000 = 401,000

    60,000 + 89,800 + 87,300 + 117,000 + 401,000 = 755,100

    Total number of voters:
    600 + 449 + 291 + 234 + 401 = 1975

    The weighed mean:
    755,100 / 1975 = ~382 hours.

    So on average, the voters would like to take a player to spend approximately 382 hours to reach the max level under condition of ...

    Zehlan wrote: »
    the server already has metropolis nodes, so you're not time gated by the node system when it comes to leveling.
    I don't think I need to explain that leveling in those conditions will be significantly faster than leveling on launch, do I?

    So thank you for bringing this up and proving my point once again.

    P.S. Can't wait to see your made up excuses like "oh wait, no, this poll is not valid, I didn't mean it" or whatever else comes to your mind

    Avada Kedavra
    n8ohfjz3mtqg.png
  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    Chaliux wrote: »
    Flanker wrote: »
    While "easy alts" are not a problem for many MMOs, they are a problem for a game like Ashes.
    Why?
    It‘s a sub-fee MMO. It wants to bind me, why should it be a problem to play with alts?
    Well, you'd realize why when you face my 3 PK alts that were so easy to level and then throw them away.

    Jokes aside (or maybe not really jokes?) that's not the main reason

    Player interdependency is an important part of game's vision and philosophy. That is a reason why, for example, there is a limit for artisan skills you can become a Grandmaster at, right? Right.

    Under these circumstances, nothing stops players and guilds on making alt characters and powerleveling them to skip that element. Why bother to find someone when you can just do it yourself? Taking into account all the factors mentioned in another thread, that will contribute to a much faster leveling over time - those "225 hours" may end up being "125 hours" a couple of months after the launch.

    Also, under these circumstances, nothing stops players and guilds on making alts in order to grind the same instanced boss 2-3-5 times per cooldown, while you will only have a chance to do it once.

    Etc.
    n8ohfjz3mtqg.png
  • mxomxo Member
    edited October 8
    Flanker, my young friend, its a MMO meant for decades. There will be severals alts and twinks, because intrepid wants us to have them. There are countless signs why it is like this. The 250h are absolutely and fully irrelevant over the time horizon Ashes is meant to be on the market for us and entertaining us.

    In WoW it was/is also not possible to have all professions on one char. Also, in early WoW, you leveled them all - manually. Different races, perhaps factions, for sure classes and professions. Its as old as MMOs are. Yes, not every char will be maintained at the same level, but thats no issue at all. Its an alt, its a char playing in breaks and natural cool down phases, perhaps not at prime time, at least not during the first month of the game.

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Because it's an MMO RPG. Yes.
  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    Chaliux wrote: »
    Flanker, my young friend
    New title unlocked? I mean, am I that young though? I may look young, but I'm actually 32
    Chaliux wrote: »
    its a MMO meant for decades
    We all hope so. If it's an MMO for decades, what's the issue with longer leveling as long as it's fun, rewarding and enjoyable?
    Chaliux wrote: »
    There will be severals alts and twinks
    It's not a question whether there be alt or not - it is inevaitable. Their quantity though is an important variable and if it ends up being too high, it may lead to certain unpleasant consequences
    Chaliux wrote: »
    because intrepid wants us to have them
    I don't recall them saying anything like that. Care to provide a reference?
    Chaliux wrote: »
    ts a char playing in breaks and natural cool down phases, perhaps not at prime time, at least not during the first month of the game.
    Well, maybe you use them that way. I've seen the dark side of alts being easy to make and I don't want Ashes to face the consequences of that dark side.

    Anyway, I don't mind being in a win-win situation.

    If Intrepid cares to listen and implement certain changes - awesome, it will be good for the game, at least I think so.

    If they don't - well, guess I'll have alts for artisan skills/PKing with no risk/dungeons/anything else I want or need. It's not the scenario I want, but if it goes that way, I will obviously take advantage of that.


    P.S. @Zehlan cutie pie, I know you have already read my reply, it's a pity you failed so miserably and left in shame. I'm going to miss you, as obviously you won't come back to this thread, at least not within next couple of pages, until you get an impression that people forgot about it and/or won't go back to read it.
    n8ohfjz3mtqg.png
  • ZehlanZehlan Member, Alpha Two
    Flanker wrote: »
    Zehlan wrote: »
    How Many Hours Should It Take to Reach Max Level?

    Just wondering how grindy people here think the game should be to but max level? Also for this poll, assume that the server already has metropolis nodes, so you're not time gated by the node system when it comes to leveling.
    I'll highlight this again, if you didn't notice it
    Zehlan wrote: »
    for this poll, assume that the server already has metropolis nodes, so you're not time gated by the node system when it comes to leveling.
    Alright, so if you attempt to use the result of this poll as a proof, then it means you consider the results representative and valid.

    Let's make some simple calculations then (you like calculations, don't you?)

    And I hope you are aware of the difference between the arithmetic mean and weighed mean. Anyway, you can google it.

    600 x 100 = 60,000
    449 x 200 = 89,800
    291 x 300 = 87,300
    234 x 500 = 117,000
    401 x 1000 = 401,000

    60,000 + 89,800 + 87,300 + 117,000 + 401,000 = 755,100

    Total number of voters:
    600 + 449 + 291 + 234 + 401 = 1975

    The weighed mean:
    755,100 / 1975 = ~382 hours.

    So on average, the voters would like to take a player to spend approximately 382 hours to reach the max level under condition of ...

    Zehlan wrote: »
    the server already has metropolis nodes, so you're not time gated by the node system when it comes to leveling.
    I don't think I need to explain that leveling in those conditions will be significantly faster than leveling on launch, do I?

    So thank you for bringing this up and proving my point once again.

    P.S. Can't wait to see your made up excuses like "oh wait, no, this poll is not valid, I didn't mean it" or whatever else comes to your mind

    Avada Kedavra

    Not at all 382 is a far cry from what you are suggesting and Is not unreasonable with that about 76 days I think most people are aiming for 2-3 months but if you want to play math majority want under 200 hours or 2 to 1 want under 300 most popular the most important was 100 hours we can play math all day if you want you will still lose. Now if you add in the newer poll showing the majority wanting 225 which shows as the game progresses the trend is leaning toward shorter time. Now I will say that's probably not going to stay there, i betting +/- of 50 hours myself after we get a ways into alpha 2.

    I noticed you ignored the other poll showing 45 days and that has everyone in the comments saying how 45 days is right about perfect didn't want to use that one because you couldn't manipulate the truth in anyway on that one I guess.
    I will post it again so it doesn't get buried

    Steven has already confirmed on stream that the average time to reach the maximum level will be 45 days playing 4-6 hours a day, do you think this time is adequate? if a player plays 12 hours/day can reach mas level in 2 weeks

    My opinion is that this is a very short time, I have serious concerns about character development, the feeling of reward for leveling up, the feeling of progression, and whether or not it will be healthy for the overall game environment.

    As a former lineage player i have the memory of low level groups formed to grind in Cruma Tower , low grade pvps, small fights almost all the time, my fear is the game is too easy and the leveling becomes obsolete, and the end of the monotonous game and very dependent on the events (siege and caravans).

    Sorry about my poor grammar, i'm from Brasil.
    Closed • 743 total votes
    ]413
    45 days 4-6 hours, are good enough.

    174
    90 days 4-6 hours, I think something more challenging is more exciting and can bring more benefits to the game.
    89
    180 days 4-6hours, i want be rewarded for every mob killed and that i can also stand out through my level.
    67
    At least a year, i dont care about casuals.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/nsvat5/about_time_do_reach_max_level/
    Zehlan wrote: »

    K Let's have some fun today. Flanker know all these games you have had all this experience in that is the basis for all your claims. Nothing before 18 or from pirate servers in other words servers that weren't the original companies who created the game. I do remember you saying that you had played a subscription based MMO I am curious to know that one.

    I have asked this question before and got no answer asked here again and got no answer how come?
  • ZehlanZehlan Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 8
    Flanker wrote: »
    If Intrepid cares to listen and implement certain changes - awesome, it will be good for the game, at least I think so.

    If they don't - well, guess I'll have alts for artisan skills/PKing with no risk/dungeons/anything else I want or need. It's not the scenario I want, but if it goes that way, I will obviously take advantage of that.[/b]

    P.S. @Zehlan cutie pie, I know you have already read my reply, it's a pity you failed so miserably and left in shame. I'm going to miss you, as obviously you won't come back to this thread, at least not within next couple of pages, until you get an impression that people forgot about it and/or won't go back to read it.

    See and this is the honest and reasonable thing I think you have said yet I actually respect this statement. If you would of started this thread with I love long levelling I think there would of been a completely different vibe but you started it with everyone else has to change the way they play this game.

    P.S. I have mild dyslexia so it can take time to write down stuff one post took me three hours to put together the other day it's worse when I have worked a long day and sometimes tbh your not worth responding to. Oh and yes I am a fucking cutie pie ;)
  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    Zehlan wrote: »
    drat
    Damn, this comment makes much more sense that all previous comments combined.
    Zehlan wrote: »
    Not at all 382 is a far cry from what you are suggesting and Is not unreasonable
    I hope you didn't miss the part that those 382 hours are under condition where the world is fully developed, with metros, etc. Right? Because it that case, leveling on launch can easily take 500-600-700 hours. That would obviously be better than the current 225h.
    Zehlan wrote: »
    I think most people are aiming for 2-3 months but if you want to play math majority want under 200 hours or 2 to 1 want under 300 most popular the most important was 100 hours
    Dude, you need to learn how to deal with numbers and how to interpret statistics properly. Seriously. I feel like I'm talking to someone who got kicked out of elementary school at the age of 37.
    Zehlan wrote: »
    we can play math all day if you want you will still lose
    Are those mythical "mathematical victories" in the same room with you right now? Buckle up, you're going to get obliterated for the second time.

    r5u9y0n5hib5.png
    Zehlan wrote: »
    I noticed you ignored the other poll showing 45 days and that has everyone in the comments saying how 45 days is right about perfect didn't want to use that one because you couldn't manipulate the truth in anyway on that one I guess.
    Oh, so now what people write in comments suddenly became relevant? Very interesting. The last time I pointed out to what people write in comments, you just ignored it. What a pathetic hypocrisy.

    Alright, my sweet summer mathematical genius. I was delusional enough to assume that you managed to comperehend the meaning behind the numbers in my previous comments. Here we go again.

    413 x 45 = 18,585
    174 x 90 = 15,660
    89 x 180 = 16,020
    67 x 365 = 24,455

    18,585 + 15.660 + 16.020 + 24.455 = 74.720

    Total number of voters:
    413 + 174 + 89 + 67 = 743

    The weighed mean:
    74.720 / 743 = ~100 days.

    What's wrong with your face now, kid? Are you going to say now that the poll is rigged and math is wrong?

    Avada Kedavra 2.0

    Zehlan wrote: »
    I have asked this question before and got no answer asked here again and got no answer how come?
    That's irrelevant but I'll answer it anyway. I played Lineage 2 Classic - it was an official server with a subscription. No idea, why you need that information, but whatever.
    n8ohfjz3mtqg.png
  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 8
    Zehlan wrote: »
    See and this is the honest and reasonable thing I think you have said yet I actually respect this statement.
    Haven't you thought, just for a second, what if everything I wrote so far is actually honest?
    Zehlan wrote: »
    If you would of started this thread with I love long levelling I think there would of been a completely different vibe but you started it with everyone else has to change the way they play this game.
    It doesn't matter what I like or don't like. If that was the reason why I made the suggestion, then I would write something like "Hey, I love long leveling, are there people who like too? So that if there is enough of us, we could ask Intrepid to make it longer?" Simple as that

    If you actually read carefully my words that you quoted, you might end up realizing that I am suggesting something that is AGAINST my personal interests. Current leveling speed provides MORE opportunities for me, but I am fine with not having them, if it is good for the game itself.
    Zehlan wrote: »
    P.S. I have mild dyslexia so it can take time to write down stuff one post took me three hours to put together the other day it's worse when I have worked a long day
    Understandable. If talking is easier for you than writing, feel free to drop me a line and we could schedule a 1v1 face-to-face debate, if by some miracle you are down.
    Zehlan wrote: »
    Oh and yes I am a fucking cutie pie ;)
    Good for you then
    n8ohfjz3mtqg.png
  • ZehlanZehlan Member, Alpha Two
    Here we go again.

    413 x 45 = 18,585
    174 x 90 = 15,660
    89 x 180 = 16,020
    67 x 365 = 24,455

    18,585 + 15.660 + 16.020 + 24.455 = 74.720

    Total number of voters:
    413 + 174 + 89 + 67 = 743

    The weighed mean:
    74.720 / 743 = ~100 days.

    What's wrong with your face now, kid? Are you going to say now that the poll is rigged and math is wrong?
    [/quote]

    Not everyone gets a metal buddy the 413 will dictate the speed this isn't socialism. What it comes down to is they will go with majority which you like to avoid. This is a business they are not going to piss of the majority and have them leave and be left with a demographic half that size so you can play games with the numbers but in the end majority rules don't like then maybe this isn't your type of game.
  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 8
    Zehlan wrote: »
    Not everyone gets a metal buddy the 413 will dictate the speed this isn't socialism. What it comes down to is they will go with majority which you like to avoid. This is a business they are not going to piss of the majority and have them leave and be left with a demographic half that size so you can play games with the numbers but in the end majority rules don't like then maybe this isn't your type of game.
    So somehow only opinions that align with your personal preferences matter and all others don't?

    I'd like to point out that in that poll...

    173 + 89 + 67 = 330 players would like leveling to take at least 90 days

    Which is...

    330 / (413 + 173 + 89 + 67) x 100% = 44,4%

    Not even mentioning that the weighed mean equals to ~100 days


    P.S. As long as comments suddenly matter, go ahead and read the comments under the post on r/MMORPG: https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/1fy4h2i/can_a_grinding_mmo_survive_in_todays_market/
    n8ohfjz3mtqg.png
  • RocketFarmerRocketFarmer Member, Alpha Two
    Is it just me or does the design seem to intend to de-emphasize alts?

    I’ve always loved switching between characters for a different play experience. Experimenting with different concepts and builds.

    However, limiting citizenship to only one node among other policies makes it difficult if you want to play multiple characters based in separate locations. Understand they are trying to limit those who might abuse things, but it takes a good bit of the benefits of playing alts away.
  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    I’ve always loved switching between characters for a different play experience. Experimenting with different concepts and builds.
    If that's your goal, make an alt on a different server with no restrictions. Not only you will have a chance for "different concepts and builds" but also an entirely different "play experience" on a server that developed and evolved in a different way than your original server.
    n8ohfjz3mtqg.png
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 9
    I Remeber in EQ what we called the hell levels. EQ was slow level. You could hang out in dungeons or camps sometimes for weeks before you out leveled them.

    Then you hit a wall. The hell leveles.it was so long, often felt 4 x longer then a standard level. Some people even stopped playing and that's when there was no options for MMOing. EQ was the only 3D world you could RP online with friends.

    So think of the MMOs over the past 15 years. The high of getting sometimes 3-5 levels in an evening. Then they try Ashes at its current rate. Average gamer will take about a year to level everything you need for a rounded build. That's just one well rounded build. How many people do you really think will stick around if IS does what you are requesting? Say what, 350-450 hours.

    For most people they are not following this game closely. Every level will feel like a hell level. They will start to calculate that it going to take 2-3 years for an average player to get one buold rounded out. Not knowing that you will be playing end game style game at every level. Thinking it going to take 3 years to join end game. How many players will we lose?

    220hrs for main path and maybe 50-100 hours to round out for all the builds you want to play. Ashes needs people subbing to make money. They need to make a profit.

    If myself a old school MMOer is saying and seems to be just not me. That your idea will not work, especially with the current market. What more can be said.

    I watch your vids but I don't agree with everything you say. Why this bone is something you won't let go of. I have to ask. What is the need (what you really want) behind the need (wanting leveling to take much longer). What is the one thing above any other you want this more then anyone else?
  • ShaggyRynShaggyRyn Member, Alpha Two
    I would say that around 500 hours would be better. I hate when the goal of the game is to rush to max level so you can start playing the game. The game (leveling) is what we came to play. I get that means it will take casual people awhile to hit max but that shouldn't matter if they are having fun. Fun and diverse gameplay loops will keep people engaged and excited to log in every day.
  • CaerylCaeryl Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Is it just me or does the design seem to intend to de-emphasize alts?

    I’ve always loved switching between characters for a different play experience. Experimenting with different concepts and builds.

    However, limiting citizenship to only one node among other policies makes it difficult if you want to play multiple characters based in separate locations. Understand they are trying to limit those who might abuse things, but it takes a good bit of the benefits of playing alts away.

    You're correct, numerous alts isn't a playstyle they want to support, and that's on purpose.

    For the same reason they're not going to allow character name-changes, alts are taxing to maintain and level to effectiveness. They want you to be forced to rely on other players, so self-sufficiency is made extremely difficult. They want players to spy on each other as a sort of strife generator/'gameplay' loop, bad for the game imo but that's what they want, so the level of alts can clue other into them being either 1) new 2) potentially a spy if they're 'too' knowledgeable about the game. It becomes too easy to crank out junker spy characters if leveling is too short, but too difficult to tell one from a genuine character if leveling is too long.

    The 45 day range is a cushy spot that requires at least a few weeks to reach a spot of engaging with the game seriously (secondary archetype threshold), but isn't so restrictive that you couldn't make spies as a part of guild v guild conflict.
  • Caeryl wrote: »
    You're correct, numerous alts isn't a playstyle they want to support, and that's on purpose.

    For the same reason they're not going to allow character name-changes, alts are taxing to maintain and level to effectiveness. They want you to be forced to rely on other players, so self-sufficiency is made extremely difficult. They want players to spy on each other as a sort of strife generator/'gameplay' loop, bad for the game imo but that's what they want, so the level of alts can clue other into them being either 1) new 2) potentially a spy if they're 'too' knowledgeable about the game. It becomes too easy to crank out junker spy characters if leveling is too short, but too difficult to tell one from a genuine character if leveling is too long.

    The 45 day range is a cushy spot that requires at least a few weeks to reach a spot of engaging with the game seriously (secondary archetype threshold), but isn't so restrictive that you couldn't make spies as a part of guild v guild conflict.

    There are easy ways to prevent that like having someone post their character screen before they join the guild. I mean if someone wants to go through the length of having 2 accounts and double subbing then fair play to them. I’m pretty sure there are some games that also have rules like you can only have one account or no multi-boxing.

    Worst thing is insider threat from people in the guild or alliance who aren’t happy that are maybe thinking of leaving or feeling left out. Those are the types of people who you need to watch out for that can be persuaded to spy or leak information. Also being strict with who can stream Zerg fights or even how they stream them like blocking out the map or putting a delay as not to give away your location or position.
  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 9
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Ashes needs people subbing to make money. They need to make a profit.
    Exactly. If you take a look at subscription only, a single player who plays for 2 years is more valuable than 10 players who play for 2 months and leave
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Why this bone is something you won't let go of. I have to ask.
    For a long list of reasons I mentioned in this thread: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/60737/ashes-of-creation-must-dodge-this-bullet/p1

    While you might consider some of them not that critical, combine all others and take a look at their total cumulative effect.
    n8ohfjz3mtqg.png
  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    Pendragxn wrote: »
    There are easy ways to prevent that like having someone post their character screen before they join the guild. I mean if someone wants to go through the length of having 2 accounts and double subbing then fair play to them.
    In any guild there will be at least one player (most likely much more than that) who wouldn't mind spending $15/month for the benefit of the whole guild, as the potential ROI on having a spy in a rival guild may be huge.
    n8ohfjz3mtqg.png
  • CaerylCaeryl Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Pendragxn wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    You're correct, numerous alts isn't a playstyle they want to support, and that's on purpose.

    For the same reason they're not going to allow character name-changes, alts are taxing to maintain and level to effectiveness. They want you to be forced to rely on other players, so self-sufficiency is made extremely difficult. They want players to spy on each other as a sort of strife generator/'gameplay' loop, bad for the game imo but that's what they want, so the level of alts can clue other into them being either 1) new 2) potentially a spy if they're 'too' knowledgeable about the game. It becomes too easy to crank out junker spy characters if leveling is too short, but too difficult to tell one from a genuine character if leveling is too long.

    The 45 day range is a cushy spot that requires at least a few weeks to reach a spot of engaging with the game seriously (secondary archetype threshold), but isn't so restrictive that you couldn't make spies as a part of guild v guild conflict.

    There are easy ways to prevent that like having someone post their character screen before they join the guild. I mean if someone wants to go through the length of having 2 accounts and double subbing then fair play to them. I’m pretty sure there are some games that also have rules like you can only have one account or no multi-boxing.

    Worst thing is insider threat from people in the guild or alliance who aren’t happy that are maybe thinking of leaving or feeling left out. Those are the types of people who you need to watch out for that can be persuaded to spy or leak information. Also being strict with who can stream Zerg fights or even how they stream them like blocking out the map or putting a delay as not to give away your location or position.

    I think spying as a concept is stupid and won't pan out like Steven thinks because everything is run through discord anyway, but I'm just giving you part of their reasoning.

    Crafting is the biggest thing they want to enforce player interaction and inter-reliance.
  • Caeryl wrote: »
    I think spying as a concept is stupid and won't pan out like Steven thinks because everything is run through discord anyway, but I'm just giving you part of their reasoning.

    Crafting is the biggest thing they want to enforce player interaction and inter-reliance.

    Yeah I don’t think there will be a mass amount of spy’s one or two might slip through the cracks in an alliance merger. However for a seasoned ZvZ & PvP guild that knows what they’re doing there’s a lot of ways you can check someone or make it difficult for them to join on an alt or limit their access to information via discord/comms.

    I’m interest to see what open world scouting will be like and if people will station lookouts when doing PvX content like raids or world bosses.



  • RocketFarmerRocketFarmer Member, Alpha Two
    Doesn’t have to be a lot of spies. And the best spies are sleepers, playing years for a guild to rise to the top only to stick the knife in the back. Been several games where that sort of thing has played out. Including the games Steven gets his inspiration from.
  • Doesn’t have to be a lot of spies. And the best spies are sleepers, playing years for a guild to rise to the top only to stick the knife in the back. Been several games where that sort of thing has played out. Including the games Steven gets his inspiration from.

    I mean if someone wants to commit years of their life and pay $30 a month for the game at the same time fair play to them. Personally to be honest it seems like a lot of effort, but that’s why as a guild leader you never giveaway all your access to the guild treasury.

  • RocketFarmerRocketFarmer Member, Alpha Two
    If the turnover on nodes and castles is high, I think you’ll see more direct strategies. Unless someone wants to time things and it involves a gambit of progressive turnover until the treasury is full, and then they strike. Even multiple players coordinating a long con to manipulate multiple nodes and guilds to open the way for their “team” to sweep in for the spoils.
  • ZehlanZehlan Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 9
    Pendragxn wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    I think spying as a concept is stupid and won't pan out like Steven thinks because everything is run through discord anyway, but I'm just giving you part of their reasoning.

    Crafting is the biggest thing they want to enforce player interaction and inter-reliance.

    Yeah I don’t think there will be a mass amount of spy’s one or two might slip through the cracks in an alliance merger. However for a seasoned ZvZ & PvP guild that knows what they’re doing there’s a lot of ways you can check someone or make it difficult for them to join on an alt or limit their access to information via discord/comms.

    I’m interest to see what open world scouting will be like and if people will station lookouts when doing PvX content like raids or world bosses.



    Played EvE ran a small alliance for years I had a gentleman in my personal corporation he ran 7 accounts at 15 a month maxed amount of characters I believe 8 per account can't remember for sure but he traded in information for information or in game money that was his whole game. He showed me half a dozen of his characters this included voice modulation for each toon sometimes he was an old british guy all the way down to a 15 year girl. I hope he was talking to me in his real voice but to be honest I don't know and the funniest part that's all he did in eve! he was a good guy maybe girl though lol. I hope this does not come to pass in this game because it was not fun dealing with spys took a little bit of the joy away dealing with that.
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Flanker wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Ashes needs people subbing to make money. They need to make a profit.
    Exactly. If you take a look at subscription only, a single player who plays for 2 years is more valuable than 10 players who play for 2 months and leave
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Why this bone is something you won't let go of. I have to ask.
    For a long list of reasons I mentioned in this thread: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/60737/ashes-of-creation-must-dodge-this-bullet/p1

    While you might consider some of them not that critical, combine all others and take a look at their total cumulative effect.

    I'm an old stubborn man. I come from the days of camping a single item off a boss, spawn after spawn for 36 hr straight to get my jboots. I have played through many generations and the last few in general, don't have that mentallity. What your asking for is why Ubisoft is failing.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 9
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    I Remeber in EQ what we called the hell levels. EQ was slow level. You could hang out in dungeons or camps sometimes for weeks before you out leveled them.

    Then you hit a wall. The hell leveles.it was so long, often felt 4 x longer then a standard level. Some people even stopped playing and that's when there was no options for MMOing. EQ was the only 3D world you could RP online with friends.

    So think of the MMOs over the past 15 years. The high of getting sometimes 3-5 levels in an evening. Then they try Ashes at its current rate. Average gamer will take about a year to level everything you need for a rounded build. That's just one well rounded build. How many people do you really think will stick around if IS does what you are requesting? Say what, 350-450 hours.

    For most people they are not following this game closely. Every level will feel like a hell level. They will start to calculate that it going to take 2-3 years for an average player to get one buold rounded out. Not knowing that you will be playing end game style game at every level. Thinking it going to take 3 years to join end game. How many players will we lose?

    220hrs for main path and maybe 50-100 hours to round out for all the builds you want to play. Ashes needs people subbing to make money. They need to make a profit.

    If myself a old school MMOer is saying and seems to be just not me. That your idea will not work, especially with the current market. What more can be said.

    I watch your vids but I don't agree with everything you say. Why this bone is something you won't let go of. I have to ask. What is the need (what you really want) behind the need (wanting leveling to take much longer). What is the one thing above any other you want this more then anyone else?
    Exactly.
    But, Flanker has only played Lineage II and New World.

    These polls are irrelevant for several reasons.
    Mainly because they are made by gamers rather than game devs and the people participating in them are mostly gamers with no game dev experience.
    Also, it is highly likely that the participants in those polls are conflating “max Level” with Endgame.

    Ashes already provides many more hours of Leveling besides just the 225 hour journey to Level 50 Adventurer, due to the numerous other progression paths Ashes offers.
    And there is also plenty of other fun gameplay opportunities with new content that does not end when players reach Level 50 Adventurer.

    Basically, Flanker’s argument is that he played Lineage 2 and loved it. Especially because it has long Leveling and, according to him, everyone gets a major dopamine hit when they finally complete activities after a very long time.
    And he played New World and the 60 hour timespan to max character Level is not fun and causes tons of issues for NW Endgame.
    Therefore, it is objectively true that it’s best for MMORPGs to have a Leveling speed to Level 50 Adventurer/Class that takes 500 - 1000 hours.

    Also, when he translates 4 hours/day of gameplay to reach 225 hours = 1.5 months…
    He disregards that the vast majority of MMORPG fans do not have 4 hours/day or 20+ hours per week to devote to playing video games.

    And part of what that means is that when a player logs into an MMORPG for their 1-2 hour game session devoted to reaching the next milestone of the adventurer path, they are going to want to be able to see more progress on their XP bar than 1/10th of the 1/10th milestone marker on the bar.

    Sure, if a typical game session is 16 hours, like Flanker says it is for him, you can see some decent progress on the way to 500+ hours.
    Also, yes, if you’re playing 16 hours/day, and Nodes aren’t gatekeeping Primary Archetype progression Levels, and it’s a static MMORPG with an Endgame, 2 weeks to Endgame probably feels too fast.
    And this is even more true for a game like NW, with 60 hours to Main Story Endgame, for someone who plays 16 hours/day, but wants to take 6 months of 16/day to reach Endgame.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited October 9
    Flanker wrote: »
    And I hope you are aware of the difference between the arithmetic mean and weighed mean.

    Since I assume you are from a CIS region country, this information distortion you have done here only reinforces that notion. This kind of information distortion is common in that region.

    You can't just take poll results and normalize them, then claim the result is valid. Proof that it just doesn't work this way can be found in the fact that both times you did this above, your result was right I the middle of the range with the fewest votes.

    If I am right - or close to right - in regards to where you are from, I don't specifically blame you for this, as this kind of thing is what you would consider normal.

    However, it is not normal.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Since I assume you are from a CIS region country, this information distortion you have done here only reinforces that notion. This kind of information distortion is common in that region.

    What the point of bringing nationalities of forum members in the topic ? What's more, to highlight a character trait common to a nationality.

    It's a vicious move.
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