Greetings, glorious testers!
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Interesting you play 18 hours a day so that puts you in the top 1-2% of gamers and you wanna lengthen the time for everyone which no matter what multiplier you use it will be just a blip for you and an eternity for everyone else. See the only thing this does is give you an advantage at max level i don't like the term endgame because that means there is an end which is incorrect. My point is the bigger the multiplier to the xp hours , days whatever metric you would use the more it highly benefits Flanker.
some basic math because unlike flanker it doesn't lie
current model is for the average hardcore gamer that's 5hr/day =45days
But taking Flanker into account 18hr/day would be 12.5 days giving him a 37 days of professions rare dungeon loot drops etc not bad but not game breaking.
If we take his slower policy and say multiply x4 things change considerably
Same hardcore player 5hr/day =180 days
Flanker 18hr/day =50 days now he would have a 130 day window to control resources dungeons crafting and it only gets worse and when you add in the average player 2.5 hr/ day =360 days they might as well not even play.
So why ask for this? could it be Flanker really wants content and for everyone to stop and enjoy it?
It's fine, don't worry. Maybe you can just reflect your "poor" in front of casual players, because casuals usually are everything, but not poor in all meanings, because there is a trivial reason why they are casuals: Because of a healthy and good real life, which doesnt allow them to put all their time into a computer game ;-)
Sure, you didnt. And I just stated, that Ashes should not be build around players or player types (would be the better wording) like you - that's nothing personal about "Flanker", I would say the same to another user. So, don't take it personal.
None taken and none would be taken even in case if offence was meant.
Alright.
Yeah, we've talked about that and it's terrible, without any doubt. I wish you all the best, honestly. Cant image your situation at all, although I'm living only a few kilometers (~1.500) in the west.
About grinding IRL: Good thing. Work is nothing bad. Stopping it for bad circumstances is not your fault. Continuing work is important for a working and social society and civilazation (just think about pension, getting money once you are old, this will decrease if you are not working enough during the ages you can do it, so prosperity overall will decrease).
Sure, talked and quoted that already above.
That's a good thing and several MMOs try this. Hopefully it's true for Ashes. I fully appreciate it, because leveling and getting the world and the character to know is one of the best parts of a new MMO. Beside the fact, that I dont like to pay for investing my time (but the other way round), that's the main second reason why I'm not playing in Alpha and quite sure will not play in Beta: I want to play, feel and learn the game after release in a better, less frustrating state, with not character wipes, less bugs/glithces, better polished systems and mechanics. Because my time is rare and I only invest it into reasonable and (as best as possible) finihsed games.
Sure, but I'm not putting "poor frequent player" in threads. That's the message I try to address to you - and as you seem to be a smart guy, you understand this. You can change perspective: Just think about "normal" players that invest 1-3 hours every evening, after work, hobbies, family into the game. Let's say from 20:00 to 23:00. If (!) Ashes considers this player time with respect, it will be succesful and get popular. If they game will be designed around 10h+ players, it will suffer empty realms within the first year. The frequent players will consume the content within 5-6 months, fully. All the rest will be far behind. And they will start to leave, player by player. The minority, the rest, will suffer from all the linked designs and mechanics soon. We've seen this in other MMOs several times. So, what you need, is, addressing content to all player types and combining them. What's the strength of a casual player? Lazy content, sometimes perhaps easy content. Two aspects a hardcore pvp player that is by heart loving to run around in 40raids and pvp-ing their enemies perhaps doesnt like, or doing boring town quests for the node progression. Ahses needs different player types for different goald and because players get different entertainment out of it - hopefully the design it well and NOT only for freuqent players.
It's also valid for them. We've seen several games promising A and delivering B. Maybe it's a question of being naive and being experienced when it comes down to this. In general, with or without context, it's a marketing phrase, an excuse argument. Whenever something is inconvenient: It's not for everyone! That's quite poor, of course it is. And, that some of this "core pillars" are under high criticism is not really suprising, right? Out of, idk, 60 (?) MMOs out there since more than 2 decades if you take one or two games and build everything around it, you for sure will get criticism, because if you've experienced more you can combine more of the good and working aspects.
Talking about 60 because this list seems to reflect the market situation still quite good, although its from 2023 (and German, but for the name of the games it makes no difference).
https://mein-mmo.de/groessten-mmorpgs-tier-list/
Beside that, I generally agree with this personal tier-list from the author (and thats subjective!!), perphaps with some minor updates between S- and A-Tier. But, if you design around C, D or E-tier games, of course you will get critism from players that are playing S-, A- or B-tier games, because they are good and that's why they are (in relation to others) popular and (still) successfull, although aged. And all of them are "not for everyone". Guild Wars 2 is a very very good example, because in terms of character progression it's very special - but, it's loved, gets Addon after Addon and I fully agree that is is still s-tier. But: It's fully different to WoW or FF (and both are for sure s-tier) in terms of gear progression. So: It's not for everybody. Hopefully now you got the message I want to address: Forget, for god sake, this marketing phrasing that something is not for everybody. Of course it's not. But that's not excuse for shitty designs or mechanics.
The funniest thing is that you think that the moment a casual player reaches the same level, a hardcore player loses the advantage. Take a look at your "maths" and learn to interpret the numbers properly. You don't even realize that in both cases with so-called "37 and 130 days" of my "advantage", the fact that an abstract "casual player" reaches the same level as me - the advantage does not magically disappear simply because of that. Because I would already spend 37 and 130 days correspondingly at the level cap, getting PvP/PvE experience, crafting/obtaining/enchanting my gear.
And once again. You may say whatever and make accusations. I would pass a lie detector publicly answering the question about the reasons for my suggestion about longer leveling and it would show I'm telling the truth. I don't make suggestions in order to get "an advantage" as I will have it anyway one way or another.
Hell, if you weren't blinded by your emotions and lack of common sense, you would notice that in another thread about HP bars I'm suggesting something that goes AGAINST my own interests for the sake of the game. But you simply ignore that desperately trying to spread conspiracy theories and accuse me in anything and everything.
Ah, nice, yeah, keep taking my words out of the context. The fact that you do it only displays your lack of actual arguments, so you have to make up at least something. Good job kid
Do we want to play Ashes of Creation for a few months, or we want it to captivate us for years, like a true MMO should?
If you'd choose months - fine, I'd appreciate your honesty. However, I would choose years hands down.
Haha I told you to not take it seriously
Yup, I never said that either. It's not the way it is supposed to be, unless it is some super niche game. But I never used that as a reason.
The point I was trying to make is that I grind IRL the same way as I grind in MMOs. If I choose to work, I find something that captivates me and I go full hardcore mode by doing that for ~100 hours/week, not the classic 40h/week. It's just the way I am - I either focus on something on 100% or I don't even start. Same applies to games.
Yeah, if your time is limited, you need to choose carefully and spend it wisely. Speaking of frustration of wipes - if we never get to talk in voice chat somewhere, remind me to tell you about one interesting psychological experiment regarding this. Don't wanna write another 1000000 words essay here
I mean yeah, there is a page with me playing MMOs casually in my biography as well. I just don't understand why people worry about something that I would never even consider worrying about.
I used to play on one of Lineage 2 classic servers casually at some point. Just so you know, leveling there was EXTREMELY long and hardcore (~2.5-3 years to reach level cap). I joined it when server was already like a year old and there were plenty of players that I would never catch up with even if I play 24/7.
But I didn't care about it for a single second - I played it because it was fun for me.
Exactly. Yet here people actually demand delivering "B" despite the fact they initially came for "A".
Yes and no? Each game has a target audience, including Ashes. I'm pretty sure this message was for those players who are not the target audience for Ashes for whatever reason.
I get your point.
There are systems in WoW, for example, that I absolutely don't like which is the reason why I never played it. But it doesn't mean those systems are bad - they are just not for me as they don't fit my personal preferences. And I would never even think about coming to some WoW forum or subreddit and demand to change them. This game is not for me, so be it.
1. target audience
This is really a difficult topic. Take us (you and me) for instance. You are, obviously, a Lineage2 fan and you are watching Ashes for several reasons, but also for the reason, that it seems to be covering several L2 designs (it's the spiritual successor, at least a bit). That's why you are arguing (and sometimes "defending") especially those aspects. And that's fine and fair, it's because that is your paradigma of a good and fun MMO ("the first cut is the deepest") and all those sentences and quotes from Steven are attracting you particularly. Not only, but particularly. And as long as you've not experienced another taste and why other designs can be huge fun, how would you be able to differentiate?
You can put 100% (for different reasons) into the game before it is launched, after it is launchend and you will potentially put you time also into the game when you are not playing it (content creation, information gathering, deep diving into mechanics, whatsoever). And all this for up to XY hours. "Your" L2 is not in the best healthy state, so you are desiring some MMO coming, which satisfies your/this needs. All mentioned things will not be true 100%, but I guess you get the message.
Now, take me (not personally, but my "player type"): I'm, nowadays, a casual gamer, but I'm defining it as "good player with lack of time" and not "bad player with lack of time". I insist on that differentiation, because I've been playing MMOs since more than 20 years and really a lot of them with different levels of success and achievements and different level of personal time invest depending on my age, job and family state. I'm married since about 15 years, got two lovely childs and some pets - grew up with dogs and different smaller pets, so our entire family is an animal-loving one. I'm additionaly in a (very good) job, smart (high) position, no financial or material issues and fears at all and although I'm not rich, not at all, there is nothing above avarage that I can't afford or just buy. House, garden, pool, cars - name it, I've worked long and hard until now and altough I'm not old I dont miss anything. Good thing, we are all healthy and in a good condition, so also this part is fine for us and me. For my personally, there is only one value which is rare, very rare: Time. That's why my approach - today - is different to my approach to gaming 20 or 10 years ago. But, I'm still a gamer, doing that not daily, but quite often in the evenings and sometimes silent weekends.
But, why the hell I'm still watching MMOs then, because they want the player to invest the most possible time, right? Well, because I love them. I usually love 90% of them. The playing together (or against) aspect, the social and grouping aspect, usually the high fantasy setting, the 3rd person gameplay, the combat with action bar skills, the levelling, the races, the classes, the roleplay which comes together with that (a bit), the world to be explored, the regions/bioms, the landscape, the graphics, the music/sound. I've played or I'm playing also all kind of fantasy 3rd (or 1st, just name Elder Scrolls) fantasy RPGs offline/singleplayer. It's my main gaming genre/area. There is no fantasy RPG which I didn't play. In MMOs I'm playing both, PvE and PvP. Never did only one of it, because I need the diversity. So, up from now, you should in an objective way say: Sure, you can play Ashes, it fits to the MMO style you want to play. Right? So, what else is keeping my watching Ashes, the owpvp mass-pvp-raid competitive game, instead of T&L, Archage2 or why I'm not playing WoW, GW2 or ESO, all games that are out there? Well, because sometimes it's to "Asian" (no offense meant!!) for me (FF14, T&L, ...) or it's just: I know that games already, played them, like them, but I'm saturated with the world, gameplay, content and so on. So, I'm not searching for an "Lineage 2 owpvp MMO" where I want to put 10h a day into the game, but I'm searching for a "high fantasy PvX MMO" where I want to put 1-3h per day into the game. And, I still think, that I'm not the wrong target audience for Ashes (when it comes to age you can guess the age of Steven and my age [I'm a bit older] - it's about guys knowing the MMO genre since 20y+ and playing computer since then), but I appreciate other gameplay, other designs and other content than - perhaps - you. Can we enjoy this game although we seem to be controversial player types? Yes, I'm convinced we can. If I would hate (!) PvP, which is not the case, then it was a wrong turn and I should stop watching and following Ashes. But I like pvp, I like it a lot. There is still (you know my opinion on that) that I just dont fully agree with the L2 flagging system, but that's what it is, I got attracted because of 15 other points the game deliveres in a smart and cool way, but not that aspect. That's a compromise (together with corruption mechanics) I have to deal with. The lawless zones ("pvp server" design) is something I appreciate, I'm used to it after many years of WoW pvp servers, but within normal "PvE/X" zones I've to experience, what happens and whether I like it or not and how corruption system will do it's job. If I only (!) would be here because of the flagging, I would feel like missing out 15 other cool points, to be honest. So, my personal balance seems to be fine, 80% of Ashes looks and sounds nice, some parts I don't like. But thats also in WoW, GW2 and ESO the case, so I've no worries, that Ashes can be a nice new home for me and my friends - also long-time home. So, that's my view on "player types" and I will not quote the Ashes wiki again which player times Steven and intrepid want to attract for their game and if you seriously watch website, media, streams you will see: 80% that is shown and how people are attracted is fantasy MMORPG stuff including... PvE. Races. Classes. Secondary archetypes. Progression. Nodes. Questing. Story Arcs. Skills. Weaopon Skills. Gearing. Gathering. Crafting. Housing. Nodes (incl. town board questing, ...). Yes, the core seems to be owpvp (which I like sometimes, but not always, as it's an imbalanced state of willingness to do pvp at this particular point of time) and object-orientated pvp (which I usually like always, because it's based on will of all involved parties do play pvp because of the event/object), but especially the details about flagging and owpvp is not obvious for the attracted target audience first, so intrepid will have to face this potential criticism and feedback until release - and afterwards, because there is no obligation that players are deep diving into every system and details before a game launches, that's one target audience which is doing that, but not the entire target group. Alternative: Do better marketing towards pvp design.
2. Just about the last paragraph: Sure, same is valid for me for all (!) MMOs I've played. There is no single MMO out there which covered everything to 100% desire - and this will never happen. But, feedback is changing games. WoW is different to its launch. And that's a good and correct evolution. Also vanilla, so now called "classic", changed since release in 2003/2004. It's NOT the same game, there are several improvements done. You cannot just stop the evolution of a game, especially not in the MMO genre. I want to provide one example, which is for me, as an "aged warcraft player" and huge fan of the entire universe, heartbreaking: There is cross-faction play included (what I've heard, I'm not playing WoW anymore). So, my heart is bleeding, because Orcs and Humans play together in normal small dungeons. But: This is evolution. An evolution which I hate personally (because of my love to warcraft and where it's coming from), but evolution. For me it's a deal breaker and never should have happenend to Warcraft, which defines itself for the everlasting war between alliance and horde, with some alliances of convenience in between against a bigger enemy. But: It was changed. A core pillar. Faction gameplay. Gameplay-wise it's smart, because of the imbalance between the popular horde and not that popular alliance and therefore waiting times / queueing times and other aspects. But from where warcraft is coming: No, seriously not. Those factions always were and usually are in war. And it's all about this world of war(craft).
So, it's more the question, if somebody insists and ignores broad feedback or listening to feedback and is willing to change things, if they are not good or, from the majority, not wanted. New World got problems in between, that's fact and right, that's why a lot of players left in between. It was NOT the change to a PvX game (away from full PvP game) that caused this reduction of player base, by contrast, it would never have been so crowded if it only would have been a pvp game. There are other parts in the content why it's still played, because, overall, it's a solid and nice MMO with lot of fun, good graphics, very good sound, good gathering and crafting (you know the new lead designer at intrepid, right?) and some really good ideas (town domination and leveling crafting stations, town board questing, ...) - so, my message is: Things can potentially change, if the market is desiring it. And that's not a bad thing overall. And such changes can be a high risk, but also insisting can be a high risk, if in the end only a minority likes it. Let's see what the upcoming testing and marketing/media brings us. Intrepid should seriously start to emphazise and focus all the pvp topics more and more, that would be my advice. Otherwise the "target audience" topic will be more difficult in the future.
Last point - just take it how you want, it's just a tiny advice:
You never should work 100h for something, also not, if it is fun for you. This will, definitly and always, lead to phases, where you are burned out and during or after this recovery you will have it much harder to get back to the normal working pace. The art is to combine family, job, hobbies and friends. It's not art to do only one or two out of those aspects, that's trivial and easy. In the end, you will miss out something, always. Balance it - just my advice, ignore it, it's all good.
So not even the poor Guys in China who get forced to work as farming Bots like back in WoW Vanilla will be able to level up quickly.
A looonnng time ago in Vanilla WoW -> it felt like levelling a Character up to the Max Level, had meaning. It took time - so You carefully chose which Class for Example you want to take.
Because it easily took Months to level up a single Character.
I am very convinced - if People make the levelling Process as fast as it is for Example in WoW today -> then many People will quickly lose Interest in Ashes of Creation. Because it won't feel as meaningful to level Characters. If everything goes far to quick, then it will make the Game feel more empty. And this truly doesn't need to be.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
Ashes of Creation is the reason I stream!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXOs3OsZMQWPi0TeNJ82ofA
100% agree. But still it should not take way too long. Leveling for 1 year is too slow (feels time-gated then), leveling 3 months is too fast. I would appreciate 6-9 months, personally.
Why I talk about those particular systems and mechanics? Because I know them pretty damn well and I know that they can work if implemented properly. I primarily focus on them because I know what I'm talking about. You could probably notice that I draw a strong line between the things I know and things I'm not familiar with and that's the reason why I don't talk about the latter.
Well, I did. Take New World for example - it's a relatively simple casual-friendly game. I'm glad that Ashes has a node system as well and it is much deeper and complex compared to NW. There was plenty of things I didn't like in NW, but I spent a decent amount of time there because I focused on things I enjoyed instead of whining about the things I didn't like.
That's the point that people often get confused with. I never spoke about post-2010 Lineage 2 in a positive way: the path the developers has chosen since then is absolutely terrible and the overwhelming majority of ex L2 players would agree with it on the spot. When I talk about L2, I talk about it's best years and patches - those that tens of thousands (probably lower hundreds of thousands) of players still enjoy on private servers as this is the only option to enjoy them.
I am in a similar position - not super rich but somewhat okay, despite the... current circumstances. The only difference is that don't have family/kids and I will never have them for the reasons that I won't share here as it would take a long time to share and it would be a really long comment.
I get it and I agree with it. On the list of the most precious things time will be somewhere in top along with freedom, which includes ability to spend time however a person wants.
Whether you want it or not, time investment will always be an important factor when it comes to MMOs - probably not in 100% of them, but in majority for sure. Yet the point still stands. You'd realize how your concerns evaporize immediately, if you start focusing on having fun in games instead of other criteria.
I've participated in many PvPs. Some of them I won, some of them I didn't. But all of them were fun.
You can check out my comment in "The most memorable moment in MMOs" - it was the moment when my guild lost. Yet it was still awesome, because it was fun.
Link: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/473686/#Comment_473686
I addressed it above
Right, but the Steven's idea and vision is different. He is not trying to make another copy-paste MMO that is supposed to please a wide audience. We've seen many of those and there is little to no need in V.473.0
The problem is that many people feel anxious as Ashes may end up being a type of the game they never played before; and the general tendency for people to worry about literally everything despite the fact that if they look back at all the things they ever worried about - they'd realize that the overwhelming majority of those things has never actually happened.
I know what burnout is and what it feels like. I also know how to prevent it - I just balance it in a different way. Basically, after 1-2-3 months of gringing IRL, I take a few days or a week off to recover and dive into whatever I do again.
You mentioned that time is important and I agree with that, 100%. That's the reason why I hate spending 2 months on something that can be done in 1 month and that's the reason why I do everything the way I do. Our life on planet Earth is limited and my time may be VERY limited, so if I want to achieve something - I will do my best to achieve it as soon as I possibly can.
If the IRL situation will follow an unfortunate scenario, I may end up being drafted. Theoretically, it shouldn't happen due to my health issues and other certain circumstances, but oh well... we live in a crazy time when literally anything can happen. Practically, it may and most likely will be a one-way ticket for me for the reasons I mentioned. But when it comes to a choice between "fight and die" or "just die", I'd obviously choose the first one. "Do what is right and whatever happens - happens" or "Do what you are to do and come what may" - those are common sayings here. So what I'm trying to say here - it's just the way I am and that's the mindset I adopted: no matter what you do, no matter what circumstances you're in, be it in game or IRL, just always use 300% of your potential. And for god's sake - don't whine and complain.
In terms of time it's not casual-friendly at all. Gathering/Crafting, for instance, needs huge amounts of time investment. The main issues from NW were: Lacking endcontent and bugs (the ones with huge impact -> server rollback).
Not sure if people get confused with that, when talking with an WoW fan you also usually hear from them the "good old times" and not the retail stories. Lineage 2, as an entire game, was very special. I would put it like this: Whoever (and for whatever reason) was not starting to play WoW in early 2000, was playing L2. The MMO market was not really big at that time and especially those two popular games divided the player base/market a lot.
You are right, but only, there is no real (or full) freedom, for nobody (except probably some very, I mean very, rich people). For 98% of the world there are frameworks and rules to be considered, otherwise a society and normal civilazation and living is not possible. Time is essential, freedom is just a dream.
That's in general fine, but modern MMOs respect the player time enough that it is reasonable, and they provide meaningful content also for time-casual players. And that's important. The full old-fashioned way, and I know that because I've grinded beyond limits in WoW vanilla, is not working nowadays, because market and players changed. For young kids/teenagers (= potential customers for Ashes, because they will be 18 once Ashes releases) the MMO genre is inexisting, just not watched and followed. The target group spreads between guys that started MMO playing as teenagers and are 30-35 (or older, like me) today.
Me too, but with a difference: PvP is fun, if both parties have the willingness to play pvp, that's a balanced state. I'm fully convinced about this fact and that's my personal approach to fair pvp battles. I would never, ever, start to attack an enemy player if he is way lower in power/level or obviously is not in a mood/situation/phase that he wants to pvp / fight back. And that's why, I personally, don't like this flagging system - but you like it, because you like the "competition" of being able to attack whenever it seems suitable for you and your own risk decision. I'm different. For my it makes no difference who wins, but it makes a difference under which conditions a pvp fight is done. And if the state is imbalanced and not equal, than it's no real pvp for me. Regarding this the gladiator arena player of mine is talking to you, where competition is the highest value you can think about, but it's under same conditions for everybody. On high ranks also when it comes to gear, because everybody has good gear. In GW2 (structured pvp) always, because once entering the arena everyone gets the same equal gear. So, it's never about who wins, but about same conditions to start a fight and willingness of both parties to play pvp.
Sure, but this also is valid for "Lineage2 copy-paste". That's why I dont like that the views usually only cylcle about this game, because Ashes is more than that - hopefully, otherwise we know already which fate will be the result.
Valid point, I agree. If I remember "old WoW" it was, overall, just a lot of fun. If I think about it in an objective way, some things were really bad, for modern/nowadays perspective. But, at this time, in earlier times, we just played and we didnt complain all the time. But, tbh, that's a mentality overall that changed during the last 1-2 decades. But I dont' want to start a generation debate right now, although it's something I love. Boomers, Gen X, Millenials. Love that stereotyping and discussing around it.
If your life and your jobs are allowing this, and you can personally manage it in a healthy way, go for it. That wouldn't be possible in my job/position (with lots of responsibility) therefore a healthy pace is needed, because all I'm doing is based on thinking, planing and sustainable long-lasting results and prosperity.
Depening on ones personal situation that's fully understandable ofc. It's surprising, that your own mentality is like this but when it comes to Ashes every "when it's done" Duke Nukeem phrase is fine for you. So if Ashes comes 2030 you are still relaxed, but in other aspects: The faster, the better. Interesting.
If you talk about your pesonal situation in your country, I hope the best for you, honestly, Flanker. As mentioned, I cant imagine whats going on there and I'm just like 1.500km away from "you". Again, all the best and hopefully nothing like this will happen and I wish you 20h, not 18h, in the game, but not getting out in that shitty situation you and your country is.
I want to do a journey. I want to experience the world, my character, everything - in a regular and good pace. I like running, I dont like sprinting. But: If the running is done, I want to have a result, a reward for it. So, there should be a step into another or more content afterwards, so that there is, beside the good journey, still an achievement to reach max level and expand the gaming experience. Otherwise players, me as well, will stop after the leveling phase.
And this is where "sandpark" comes in place, for me. And interpid is calling it like this by themselves. I'm, you already know that, more the "themepark" player, but I want to do sandbox things as well, so, without having a special goal, just playing and seeing what happens. Here, for me, random owpvp with my friends/group/guildeis comes in place. Or attending an PvX event that appears randomly. I like that, I will play that and stopp my "thempark" topics for that. But: I need cool down phases, breaks, lazy sunday morning content - you know what I mean? I like fishing as example (as you know from our discussions before): Really, if I'm sitting in front of my pc on Sunday morning, with my cup of coffee, and I'm just gathering fish for my node/guild/myself I just don't like those little Flankers showing up and starting pvp-ing me
Steven is definitely making a game based on his vision for gamers with his playstyle.
Typically, Casual players are not trying to keep up with Hardcore players.
They just want to have Quests and Tasks they can accomplish in 30-60 minutes - stuff to do that is more interesting and engaging and has an impact on the Zone of Influence than just grinding mobs.
1. Given the game is designed around groups, about 6-8 players, you’d need at least 5 other people who can match your rate of play per day. You could use a rotation of players who can fill in for time slots, but their progression won’t keep up. Finding your group or even “a” group gets to be more challenging at the extremes because you are either way ahead of the group or way behind it.
2. Content tied to node progression means a less efficient leveling experience. While the player at the higher extreme has a resource advantage based on the amount of time they can dedicate to resource gathering vs leveling, those resources may be below the character level and the economy might not keep up. This problem disappears if you have established nodes that can support those players who have that much time to play. Until then you may need to tackle resources and creatures in lawless zones. But will you have the node support to really cash in? I think you end up playing a waiting game for other players to catch up, which may be boring. This is less of a problem for the casual player.
3. Related to #2, on one extreme you have to live with underpowered gear for your level for a good period of time until the nodes and economy catches up with you, whereas on the lower end you have the feeling that you will always be under geared and can’t compete for those resources.
4. A lot of PVP content may seem unavailable to you if you’re at the extremes. And like the group and node issues, you now have a guild issue. You can have some advantages by being ahead of the leveling curve, but you are giving up experiences in the process. Being behind the leveling curve also gives the player a sense that the too much of the game isn’t for them.
5. For crafting/artisan progression it may be harder to progress without the support of other players via an economy and the scarcity of resources due to node progression.
The above appear to me to be some of the self limiting factors based on game design. How a player with more time than the average could go about it is split the time on leveling, resource gathering, exploration, crafting and mentorship. I think it would be a better experience to play that way, IMHO, than focusing on leveling alone. For the regular player it would be focus on 2-3 of these, and for the casual focus on 1, mainly leveling.
My point in an earlier post was that Intrepid could incentive this approach by adding a mechanism for diminishing returns. More time in any single activity reduces the rewards over time. Therefore to optimize your time, you switch activities. Players tend to be very meta, not all but I’d argue most. They want their character optimized in order to “win”, and will change their behavior and choices in order to do so.
So another point on the question on whether the leveling should be faster or slower, given Intrepid won’t provide the incentives I mentioned, how much time in a relative dead zone experience would you want to spend? That can be expressed in hours or days, doesn’t matter which since we can do conversions based on the player’s rate of play for comparison. For the average player, the dead zone experience would be zero to very minimal. For the casual it would be zero, but then their concern is more along the lines of not being able to keep up. Oh, and a dead zone experience could also refer to the grind to put it into perspective for the average to casual player. And then finally, how much of all of this really depends on the rate of time it takes Intrepid to roll out new content or for the players to generate it since this is more or less a sand park game? I used the Titan Steve example from Eve Online. Apparently the developers hadn’t yet finished the code for it until the accomplishment was already done. Meaning to the players it looked like nothing was happening (dead game time).
It's going to be a tedious grind.
1K+ hours of fun gameplay that includes 225 hours to reach Level 50 Adventurer is baked into the Ashes game design.
I mean... it can only be because it fits your personal preferences.
The net positive for Ashes will be the accumulated hours of gameplay for the numerous progression paths that are in addition to the 225 hours to reach Level 50 Adventurer. As well as time for Sieges and Caravans and the Events system and Dungeons/Raids and the Seasonal (3-4 month) updates.
The point is that you said, "Ashes of Creation must dodge this bullet."
And then explained that instead of the solutions Ashes already have in their game design to avoid that bullet, they need to have a significantly slower Leveling speed for the Adventurer progression path.
Steven uses the quote whenever he talks about features that are niche and may not be for everyone - not just when people ask for changes to the design.
When Steven added The Open Seas -a significant change to the original design- he said that he understood that some people would not like that change but...
"We've always said that Ashes isn't made for everyone."
225 hours to Level 50 Adventurer doesn't need to be systemically longer because the Ashes design already includes numerous other Leveling paths. In addition to tons of other new content and events to enjoy after reaching Level 50 Adventurer.
Six Months should be enough, though.
Maybe Three to Four or above - but People shouldn't need more than Six Months. We won't live forever and the aging Audience can quickly be a dying Audience - as dear Asmongold said once.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
6 months would be somewhat acceptable. I would gladly agree to that
However, there’s always the option of slightly extending the leveling time to find a happy medium, but I personally don’t see any clear advantages in doing that—unless it’s related to the pacing of the game, where players need more time to learn gameplay mechanics or dive deeper into class progression.
The only reason months is used as a measure at all is for the devs to calculate how quickly the players can reach the end of the content they've created compared to how quickly they can create and implement new content.
Because in an RPG, it's not really about beating the game and hitting Level Cap.
Rather it's about reaching the next milestone that provides the next rewards - which for an RPG is another Class Level that provides new abilities, new skills and higher stats - as the player continues on the Hero's Journey from mundane peon to god-like being.
Ideally, progression never ends. Realistically, devs cannot churn out new content as quickly as players can burn through it.
Sure, at some point, you reach godhood... and then you start a new character.
The closer you get to godhood, next Level doesn't matter much because you can pretty much do and defeat anything.
That's the way RPGs work.
You can't just arbitrarily add extra months to the time someone can acquire their expected rewards.
If my IT job says, "Hey, you know what? We've decided instead of paying you $3,000 every 80 hours, we're going to start paying you $3,000 every 400 hours." I'm going to go find a different job that pays me $3,000 every 80 hours.
For an RPG, I'm using the abilities and skills I acquire to help build the personalities of the characters I'm playing. Along with Racial lore and Gender and Religion/Deity.
If we have a Level Cap of 50 - Sure, by the time I hit Level 40 or 45, I may not care about how long it takes to hit Level 50. Level 40-45 gets me most of the way and that character is going to be established quite well already. And by then, all that matters is that there's always new Quest or new Tasks to do.
I play RPGs for the story of the Hero's Journey, but I also expect the story to continue for Gandalf even after Gandalf becomes an uber Arch-Wizard. Vertical progression can end at that point. There probably needs to be some form of horizontal progression - especially in terms of new story and new beings to encounter.
Doesn't have to occur in Dungeons. And certainly doesn't have to be Raids.
One of the Ashes solutions to that is Sieges.
Typically, when I reach max Class Level for several characters and play through a couple different Races and/or different Factions - I leave an MMORPG until there is new content. From 1999 - 2020/1, that would have been an Expansion.
These days it's usually a Seasonal Battlepass that brings me back. And I'm doing stuff in the game so I can achieve Cosmetics. That is true for NW, NMS, WoW and Fortnite. The other game I'm playing is Nightingale - and that is still in Alpha. And...BP progression is basically continual - they take 4-12 weeks to complete - and then a new one is ready to drop by the time you complete the previous one.
And the carrot is not a dopamine hit for accomplishing feats that were long and arduous - the dopamine hit is from acquiring items that help me reflect the stories and personalities of my characters.
Sure. Steven and Margaret are highly competitive Hardcore Challenge gamers who will also say that Rewards have little value if you have not experienced Risk to acquire them. That is a specific playstyle. And it is very niche in RPGs and even MMORPGs.
Typically, MMORPGs strive to support diverse playstyles rather than myopically focus on one. And, yes, there is a reason that the PvP fans who also love Risk and Hardcore Challenge complain that there are not enough MMORPGs created for their playstyle.
It always amuses me that Shadowbane "Play To Crush" only lasted a handful of years. Same devs made Crowfall, a Throne War Sim - that game lasted about 1 year. The MMORPG those devs made that is still going after 17 years is Wizard101 - and that's about as far away from Risk V Reward and Play To Crush as one could possibly get.
I also find it fascinating that the Lineage II devs and the ArcheAge/EvE devs gave chosen to place less emphasis on PvP in their subsequent games. We'll see how long those games last.
Steven played Lineage II. He's also played a bunch of other MMORPGs.
And, he only hires devs who play MMORPGs and have experience making MMORPGs. So... we can expect the Intrepid devs to have thought through how many hours it should take to reach max Adventurer Level - and concoct more reasonable an viable solutions for player retention and putting an end to Endgame than a gamer who has only played Lineage II and NW.
Yes. If you have a personality and playstyle that gets a huge dopamine rush from completing a task that took a very long time, you are going to be a fan of slow/long Leveling and you won't care if it takes 1,000 hours of gameplay to reach Level 50. And it won't feel monotonous to you because you will get that huge dopamine hit when you hit 1,000 hours.
There are tons of RPG fans who aren't going to get a dopamine hit for that.
I get a dopamine hit when I uncover all of the fog of war from an MMORPG map - because my Bartle Score is:
Explorer 87%; Socializer 73% ; Achiever 47%; Killer 0%. And that dopamine hit from completing the map is not going to increase due to extending the hours it takes for me to accomplish that or from adding difficult obstacles in the way.
It is fun to get the occassional adrenaline rush from running into a skulled mob that can one-shot me. It is fun to sometimes have mobs to Stealth past. It can be fun to sometimes Root and Run.
The flip side of my IT job is dancing. I pay $150 per month for unlimited classes at a dance studio - primarily for the exercise. And I don't really need rewards for that because I love to dance. At the same time - students will tell me that I'm one of the most valuable teachers at the studio and that I should be getting paid for helping them learn how to dance. And it's easy enough to "teach" for free when I'm gaining my income from a different job.
The rewards I get from "teaching" dance is watching the skill progression of the students. And that comes at a steady, reasonable pace. It's not a long progression. And it's not difficult. And long and difficult would not give me a dopamine hit. Sure. I get a dopamine hit when a student I haven't seen in a while tells me, "Oh. You can teach dance to the blind! I have no peripheral vision and I was thinking I would have to drop this class, but you helped me. I went to on vacation to Mexico with my husband's family and I was able to dance Salsa with them because of you!" Or... "The only reason I'm on this dance team is because whenever I danced with you in class, you always gave me encouragement to keep dancing."
There are, of course, instructors who are more hardcore than I am - teaching students to perform and performing with the students (having the students pay for private lessons to learn to perform and also to perform with an instructor). I'm happy to just make sure that all the students leave class feeling like they will be able to dance OK outside of the class room.
There are also gamers who want MMORPGs to become E-sports. There are also gamers who want to get their dopamine hits from betting on games.
There are several ways to get a dopamine hit from playing an MMORPG. It doesn't have to be from slow/long Leveling to Level 50 just because you, personally, get a dopamine hit from completing stuff that takes a long time.
225 focused hours of gameplay to Adventurer Level 50 is already long compared to the vast majority of MMORPGs.
Even that 1 Like from Pendragxn justifies my lengthy reply.
I have no delusions about me (or anyone else) being able to break through your confirmation bias.
Yeah, just in case somehow I have given the impression that I want faster leveling, echoing this.
I hate those feelings enough that they're basically quit moments for me, probably because I also roll with a group that feels similarly, who would just 'all get fed up of it together and leave'. I'm sure it's different for people who are building relationships or want to get social stuff out of new experiences in a game, but for my 'established group' if we're constantly flying through gear and levels it's definitely overall worse than slogging.
Overall, leveling should be a bit slower than 45d to max and should also reward active players more. Please never do instant max level or items that increase exp gain as this is unfair and ruins the integrity of the leveling process. Players should always feel that they are on an even playing field.
I did a variant of the Bartle Test after you mentioned it, and it was pretty interesting. My results looked balanced, though I’m not sure if that’s good or if there’s an official test.
P.S. I've read literally the same comment on reddit today. Gonna let the post age a bit as it has been posted recently and send it here as well
Or maybe they need to design a short game and long game into this. Short game to satisfy those who want and need immediate gratification and long game for those who really savor the journey.