Interesting you play 18 hours a day so that puts you in the top 1-2% of gamers and you wanna lengthen the time for everyone which no matter what multiplier you use it will be just a blip for you and an eternity for everyone else. See the only thing this does is give you an advantage at max level i don't like the term endgame because that means there is an end which is incorrect. My point is the bigger the multiplier to the xp hours , days whatever metric you would use the more it highly benefits Flanker.
some basic math because unlike flanker it doesn't lie
current model is for the average hardcore gamer that's 5hr/day =45days
But taking Flanker into account 18hr/day would be 12.5 days giving him a 37 days of professions rare dungeon loot drops etc not bad but not game breaking.
If we take his slower policy and say multiply x4 things change considerably
Same hardcore player 5hr/day =180 days
Flanker 18hr/day =50 days now he would have a 130 day window to control resources dungeons crafting and it only gets worse and when you add in the average player 2.5 hr/ day =360 days they might as well not even play.
So why ask for this? could it be Flanker really wants content and for everyone to stop and enjoy it?
So just so I understand your concern correctly: You worry that Intrepids current rate of experience accumulation is set in a way that the content they have been building so far can be skipped to a big degree?
1. The average player would reach level 50 within approximately ~2 months. It means the only future updates he will care about are those related to endgame. Therefore, Intrepid will be forced to prioritize endgame content to prevent those players from leaving; this will not stop and will only get worse over time.
Well by his own words content can just be skipped yet he cries about that there won't be any content Endgame so people will leave.Although I don't know how he played any of it to know..
Exactly. With most players basically being weekend gamers, calling for more than 225 hours until max levels when that isn't too much of a changing point to begin with makes no sense
I find it very interesting, that you keep saying that "level doesn't matter" (which is true) and "there is no endgame" (which is true). If it doesn't matter, how come extending leveling is an issue?
This also perplexing because doesn't Flanker claim that levelling needs to be slowed yet he agrees with @Kilion that it doesn't matter? If levels don't matter why bother extending it to begin with? On top of that he now agrees there is no endgame!
In all seriousness I think people are missing the bigger picture we look at it from our own perspective and maybe a bit of little selfish one at that. I mentioned about the average gamer and the pressure they will feel pressure of course being lack of time but it's not so much them getting to cap as it is trying to keep up with their friends or trying to join guilds that expect a half decent level of progression, finding groups your level or how about something simple like a node levels up as with the creatures and now you have to pack up and find another node leaving your home base. I am not saying we need to placate to the casual gamer I am saying lets not to ignore what this game is about groups, friend and guilds not solo people and if you run off half of them with stupid ignorant shit suggestion like this the game isn't going to last long.
It was used as an example to emphasize that if I was a "normal" player, I wouldn't care if leveling took thousands of hours in Ashes as long as it is fun.
Well, although I'm a "normal" (maybe) player AND I like the leveling a lot, I still would need to reach the end at a certain point, so an endless leveling phase just, for me, wouldnt make sense, because end level opens a bit different content, that's just the normal and usual case in MMOs and it's a good design, because it brings the needed diversity and longterm engagement, once the character reached more power than having 1-2 skills like in the first levels. Leveling is a journey, a journey with lots of fun. But journeys end.
Just for reference - I wasn't making fun of people who can't play a lot, don't take it seriously.
It's fine, don't worry. Maybe you can just reflect your "poor" in front of casual players, because casuals usually are everything, but not poor in all meanings, because there is a trivial reason why they are casuals: Because of a healthy and good real life, which doesnt allow them to put all their time into a computer game ;-)
I never said that Ashes must be a game for me and it's not the reason why I say it. Based on everything I know at the moment, I believe longer leveling will be a net positive for a game overall. Not because it fits my personal preferences and I'm trying to rationalize it somehow.
Sure, you didnt. And I just stated, that Ashes should not be build around players or player types (would be the better wording) like you - that's nothing personal about "Flanker", I would say the same to another user. So, don't take it personal.
None taken and none would be taken even in case if offence was meant.
Alright.
I grinded IRL a lot (same as I grind in MMOs lol) and I can chill for the next couple of years. Also, I'm kind of stuck at my house with my cat for 953 days already, and my parents, friends and literally everyone I knew left the country because of the war. If anyone is curious.
Yeah, we've talked about that and it's terrible, without any doubt. I wish you all the best, honestly. Cant image your situation at all, although I'm living only a few kilometers (~1.500) in the west.
About grinding IRL: Good thing. Work is nothing bad. Stopping it for bad circumstances is not your fault. Continuing work is important for a working and social society and civilazation (just think about pension, getting money once you are old, this will decrease if you are not working enough during the ages you can do it, so prosperity overall will decrease).
I'm aware of that and once again: I never said that Ashes must be a game to please me in all ways, shapes or forms.
Sure, talked and quoted that already above.
Correct. And that's why (according to Steven) every single level will be rewarding and certain level milestones will be more rewarding than the others.
That's a good thing and several MMOs try this. Hopefully it's true for Ashes. I fully appreciate it, because leveling and getting the world and the character to know is one of the best parts of a new MMO. Beside the fact, that I dont like to pay for investing my time (but the other way round), that's the main second reason why I'm not playing in Alpha and quite sure will not play in Beta: I want to play, feel and learn the game after release in a better, less frustrating state, with not character wipes, less bugs/glithces, better polished systems and mechanics. Because my time is rare and I only invest it into reasonable and (as best as possible) finihsed games.
You are free to think that way. We all have different goals, we all find different things entertaining
Sure, but I'm not putting "poor frequent player" in threads. That's the message I try to address to you - and as you seem to be a smart guy, you understand this. You can change perspective: Just think about "normal" players that invest 1-3 hours every evening, after work, hobbies, family into the game. Let's say from 20:00 to 23:00. If (!) Ashes considers this player time with respect, it will be succesful and get popular. If they game will be designed around 10h+ players, it will suffer empty realms within the first year. The frequent players will consume the content within 5-6 months, fully. All the rest will be far behind. And they will start to leave, player by player. The minority, the rest, will suffer from all the linked designs and mechanics soon. We've seen this in other MMOs several times. So, what you need, is, addressing content to all player types and combining them. What's the strength of a casual player? Lazy content, sometimes perhaps easy content. Two aspects a hardcore pvp player that is by heart loving to run around in 40raids and pvp-ing their enemies perhaps doesnt like, or doing boring town quests for the node progression. Ahses needs different player types for different goald and because players get different entertainment out of it - hopefully the design it well and NOT only for freuqent players.
Please, prior to quoting, care to understand the context in which this phrase was used. I was talking about a specific segment of people who want Steven to change the game's core pillars after he said a dozen of times that it is not going to happen. I didn't use it as "an excuse to justify literally anything"
It's also valid for them. We've seen several games promising A and delivering B. Maybe it's a question of being naive and being experienced when it comes down to this. In general, with or without context, it's a marketing phrase, an excuse argument. Whenever something is inconvenient: It's not for everyone! That's quite poor, of course it is. And, that some of this "core pillars" are under high criticism is not really suprising, right? Out of, idk, 60 (?) MMOs out there since more than 2 decades if you take one or two games and build everything around it, you for sure will get criticism, because if you've experienced more you can combine more of the good and working aspects.
Talking about 60 because this list seems to reflect the market situation still quite good, although its from 2023 (and German, but for the name of the games it makes no difference). https://mein-mmo.de/groessten-mmorpgs-tier-list/
Beside that, I generally agree with this personal tier-list from the author (and thats subjective!!), perphaps with some minor updates between S- and A-Tier. But, if you design around C, D or E-tier games, of course you will get critism from players that are playing S-, A- or B-tier games, because they are good and that's why they are (in relation to others) popular and (still) successfull, although aged. And all of them are "not for everyone". Guild Wars 2 is a very very good example, because in terms of character progression it's very special - but, it's loved, gets Addon after Addon and I fully agree that is is still s-tier. But: It's fully different to WoW or FF (and both are for sure s-tier) in terms of gear progression. So: It's not for everybody. Hopefully now you got the message I want to address: Forget, for god sake, this marketing phrasing that something is not for everybody. Of course it's not. But that's not excuse for shitty designs or mechanics.
Interesting you play 18 hours a day so that puts you in the top 1-2% of gamers and you wanna lengthen the time for everyone which no matter what multiplier you use it will be just a blip for you and an eternity for everyone else. See the only thing this does is give you an advantage at max level i don't like the term endgame because that means there is an end which is incorrect. My point is the bigger the multiplier to the xp hours , days whatever metric you would use the more it highly benefits Flanker.
some basic math because unlike flanker it doesn't lie
current model is for the average hardcore gamer that's 5hr/day =45days
But taking Flanker into account 18hr/day would be 12.5 days giving him a 37 days of professions rare dungeon loot drops etc not bad but not game breaking.
If we take his slower policy and say multiply x4 things change considerably
Same hardcore player 5hr/day =180 days
Flanker 18hr/day =50 days now he would have a 130 day window to control resources dungeons crafting and it only gets worse and when you add in the average player 2.5 hr/ day =360 days they might as well not even play.
So why ask for this? could it be Flanker really wants content and for everyone to stop and enjoy it?
FINALLY. Thank you for once again proving my point. That's exactly what I was talking about, but now it turns from being an "assumption" to being an actual fact.
The funniest thing is that you think that the moment a casual player reaches the same level, a hardcore player loses the advantage. Take a look at your "maths" and learn to interpret the numbers properly. You don't even realize that in both cases with so-called "37 and 130 days" of my "advantage", the fact that an abstract "casual player" reaches the same level as me - the advantage does not magically disappear simply because of that. Because I would already spend 37 and 130 days correspondingly at the level cap, getting PvP/PvE experience, crafting/obtaining/enchanting my gear.
And once again. You may say whatever and make accusations. I would pass a lie detector publicly answering the question about the reasons for my suggestion about longer leveling and it would show I'm telling the truth. I don't make suggestions in order to get "an advantage" as I will have it anyway one way or another.
Hell, if you weren't blinded by your emotions and lack of common sense, you would notice that in another thread about HP bars I'm suggesting something that goes AGAINST my own interests for the sake of the game. But you simply ignore that desperately trying to spread conspiracy theories and accuse me in anything and everything.
Well by his own words content can just be skipped yet he cries about that there won't be any content Endgame so people will leave.Although I don't know how he played any of it to know..
Ah, nice, yeah, keep taking my words out of the context. The fact that you do it only displays your lack of actual arguments, so you have to make up at least something. Good job kid
Well, although I'm a "normal" (maybe) player AND I like the leveling a lot, I still would need to reach the end at a certain point, so an endless leveling phase just, for me, wouldnt make sense, because end level opens a bit different content, that's just the normal and usual case in MMOs and it's a good design, because it brings the needed diversity and longterm engagement, once the character reached more power than having 1-2 skills like in the first levels. Leveling is a journey, a journey with lots of fun. But journeys end.
Exactly. So here is the question that I asked in the first post of another thread:
Do we want to play Ashes of Creation for a few months, or we want it to captivate us for years, like a true MMO should?
If you'd choose months - fine, I'd appreciate your honesty. However, I would choose years hands down.
It's fine, don't worry. Maybe you can just reflect your "poor" in front of casual players, because casuals usually are everything, but not poor in all meanings, because there is a trivial reason why they are casuals: Because of a healthy and good real life, which doesnt allow them to put all their time into a computer game ;-)
Sure, you didnt. And I just stated, that Ashes should not be build around players or player types (would be the better wording) like you - that's nothing personal about "Flanker", I would say the same to another user. So, don't take it personal.
Yup, I never said that either. It's not the way it is supposed to be, unless it is some super niche game. But I never used that as a reason.
About grinding IRL: Good thing. Work is nothing bad. Stopping it for bad circumstances is not your fault. Continuing work is important for a working and social society and civilazation (just think about pension, getting money once you are old, this will decrease if you are not working enough during the ages you can do it, so prosperity overall will decrease).
The point I was trying to make is that I grind IRL the same way as I grind in MMOs. If I choose to work, I find something that captivates me and I go full hardcore mode by doing that for ~100 hours/week, not the classic 40h/week. It's just the way I am - I either focus on something on 100% or I don't even start. Same applies to games.
That's a good thing and several MMOs try this. Hopefully it's true for Ashes. I fully appreciate it, because leveling and getting the world and the character to know is one of the best parts of a new MMO. Beside the fact, that I dont like to pay for investing my time (but the other way round), that's the main second reason why I'm not playing in Alpha and quite sure will not play in Beta: I want to play, feel and learn the game after release in a better, less frustrating state, with not character wipes, less bugs/glithces, better polished systems and mechanics. Because my time is rare and I only invest it into reasonable and (as best as possible) finihsed games.
Yeah, if your time is limited, you need to choose carefully and spend it wisely. Speaking of frustration of wipes - if we never get to talk in voice chat somewhere, remind me to tell you about one interesting psychological experiment regarding this. Don't wanna write another 1000000 words essay here
Sure, but I'm not putting "poor frequent player" in threads. That's the message I try to address to you - and as you seem to be a smart guy, you understand this. You can change perspective: Just think about "normal" players that invest 1-3 hours every evening, after work, hobbies, family into the game. Let's say from 20:00 to 23:00. If (!) Ashes considers this player time with respect, it will be succesful and get popular. If they game will be designed around 10h+ players, it will suffer empty realms within the first year. The frequent players will consume the content within 5-6 months, fully. All the rest will be far behind. And they will start to leave, player by player. The minority, the rest, will suffer from all the linked designs and mechanics soon. We've seen this in other MMOs several times. So, what you need, is, addressing content to all player types and combining them. What's the strength of a casual player? Lazy content, sometimes perhaps easy content. Two aspects a hardcore pvp player that is by heart loving to run around in 40raids and pvp-ing their enemies perhaps doesnt like, or doing boring town quests for the node progression. Ahses needs different player types for different goald and because players get different entertainment out of it - hopefully the design it well and NOT only for freuqent players.
I mean yeah, there is a page with me playing MMOs casually in my biography as well. I just don't understand why people worry about something that I would never even consider worrying about.
I used to play on one of Lineage 2 classic servers casually at some point. Just so you know, leveling there was EXTREMELY long and hardcore (~2.5-3 years to reach level cap). I joined it when server was already like a year old and there were plenty of players that I would never catch up with even if I play 24/7.
But I didn't care about it for a single second - I played it because it was fun for me.
In general, with or without context, it's a marketing phrase, an excuse argument.
Yes and no? Each game has a target audience, including Ashes. I'm pretty sure this message was for those players who are not the target audience for Ashes for whatever reason.
Forget, for god sake, this marketing phrasing that something is not for everybody. Of course it's not. But that's not excuse for shitty designs or mechanics.
I get your point.
There are systems in WoW, for example, that I absolutely don't like which is the reason why I never played it. But it doesn't mean those systems are bad - they are just not for me as they don't fit my personal preferences. And I would never even think about coming to some WoW forum or subreddit and demand to change them. This game is not for me, so be it.
1. target audience
This is really a difficult topic. Take us (you and me) for instance. You are, obviously, a Lineage2 fan and you are watching Ashes for several reasons, but also for the reason, that it seems to be covering several L2 designs (it's the spiritual successor, at least a bit). That's why you are arguing (and sometimes "defending") especially those aspects. And that's fine and fair, it's because that is your paradigma of a good and fun MMO ("the first cut is the deepest") and all those sentences and quotes from Steven are attracting you particularly. Not only, but particularly. And as long as you've not experienced another taste and why other designs can be huge fun, how would you be able to differentiate?
You can put 100% (for different reasons) into the game before it is launched, after it is launchend and you will potentially put you time also into the game when you are not playing it (content creation, information gathering, deep diving into mechanics, whatsoever). And all this for up to XY hours. "Your" L2 is not in the best healthy state, so you are desiring some MMO coming, which satisfies your/this needs. All mentioned things will not be true 100%, but I guess you get the message.
Now, take me (not personally, but my "player type"): I'm, nowadays, a casual gamer, but I'm defining it as "good player with lack of time" and not "bad player with lack of time". I insist on that differentiation, because I've been playing MMOs since more than 20 years and really a lot of them with different levels of success and achievements and different level of personal time invest depending on my age, job and family state. I'm married since about 15 years, got two lovely childs and some pets - grew up with dogs and different smaller pets, so our entire family is an animal-loving one. I'm additionaly in a (very good) job, smart (high) position, no financial or material issues and fears at all and although I'm not rich, not at all, there is nothing above avarage that I can't afford or just buy. House, garden, pool, cars - name it, I've worked long and hard until now and altough I'm not old I dont miss anything. Good thing, we are all healthy and in a good condition, so also this part is fine for us and me. For my personally, there is only one value which is rare, very rare: Time. That's why my approach - today - is different to my approach to gaming 20 or 10 years ago. But, I'm still a gamer, doing that not daily, but quite often in the evenings and sometimes silent weekends.
But, why the hell I'm still watching MMOs then, because they want the player to invest the most possible time, right? Well, because I love them. I usually love 90% of them. The playing together (or against) aspect, the social and grouping aspect, usually the high fantasy setting, the 3rd person gameplay, the combat with action bar skills, the levelling, the races, the classes, the roleplay which comes together with that (a bit), the world to be explored, the regions/bioms, the landscape, the graphics, the music/sound. I've played or I'm playing also all kind of fantasy 3rd (or 1st, just name Elder Scrolls) fantasy RPGs offline/singleplayer. It's my main gaming genre/area. There is no fantasy RPG which I didn't play. In MMOs I'm playing both, PvE and PvP. Never did only one of it, because I need the diversity. So, up from now, you should in an objective way say: Sure, you can play Ashes, it fits to the MMO style you want to play. Right? So, what else is keeping my watching Ashes, the owpvp mass-pvp-raid competitive game, instead of T&L, Archage2 or why I'm not playing WoW, GW2 or ESO, all games that are out there? Well, because sometimes it's to "Asian" (no offense meant!!) for me (FF14, T&L, ...) or it's just: I know that games already, played them, like them, but I'm saturated with the world, gameplay, content and so on. So, I'm not searching for an "Lineage 2 owpvp MMO" where I want to put 10h a day into the game, but I'm searching for a "high fantasy PvX MMO" where I want to put 1-3h per day into the game. And, I still think, that I'm not the wrong target audience for Ashes (when it comes to age you can guess the age of Steven and my age [I'm a bit older] - it's about guys knowing the MMO genre since 20y+ and playing computer since then), but I appreciate other gameplay, other designs and other content than - perhaps - you. Can we enjoy this game although we seem to be controversial player types? Yes, I'm convinced we can. If I would hate (!) PvP, which is not the case, then it was a wrong turn and I should stop watching and following Ashes. But I like pvp, I like it a lot. There is still (you know my opinion on that) that I just dont fully agree with the L2 flagging system, but that's what it is, I got attracted because of 15 other points the game deliveres in a smart and cool way, but not that aspect. That's a compromise (together with corruption mechanics) I have to deal with. The lawless zones ("pvp server" design) is something I appreciate, I'm used to it after many years of WoW pvp servers, but within normal "PvE/X" zones I've to experience, what happens and whether I like it or not and how corruption system will do it's job. If I only (!) would be here because of the flagging, I would feel like missing out 15 other cool points, to be honest. So, my personal balance seems to be fine, 80% of Ashes looks and sounds nice, some parts I don't like. But thats also in WoW, GW2 and ESO the case, so I've no worries, that Ashes can be a nice new home for me and my friends - also long-time home. So, that's my view on "player types" and I will not quote the Ashes wiki again which player times Steven and intrepid want to attract for their game and if you seriously watch website, media, streams you will see: 80% that is shown and how people are attracted is fantasy MMORPG stuff including... PvE. Races. Classes. Secondary archetypes. Progression. Nodes. Questing. Story Arcs. Skills. Weaopon Skills. Gearing. Gathering. Crafting. Housing. Nodes (incl. town board questing, ...). Yes, the core seems to be owpvp (which I like sometimes, but not always, as it's an imbalanced state of willingness to do pvp at this particular point of time) and object-orientated pvp (which I usually like always, because it's based on will of all involved parties do play pvp because of the event/object), but especially the details about flagging and owpvp is not obvious for the attracted target audience first, so intrepid will have to face this potential criticism and feedback until release - and afterwards, because there is no obligation that players are deep diving into every system and details before a game launches, that's one target audience which is doing that, but not the entire target group. Alternative: Do better marketing towards pvp design.
2. Just about the last paragraph: Sure, same is valid for me for all (!) MMOs I've played. There is no single MMO out there which covered everything to 100% desire - and this will never happen. But, feedback is changing games. WoW is different to its launch. And that's a good and correct evolution. Also vanilla, so now called "classic", changed since release in 2003/2004. It's NOT the same game, there are several improvements done. You cannot just stop the evolution of a game, especially not in the MMO genre. I want to provide one example, which is for me, as an "aged warcraft player" and huge fan of the entire universe, heartbreaking: There is cross-faction play included (what I've heard, I'm not playing WoW anymore). So, my heart is bleeding, because Orcs and Humans play together in normal small dungeons. But: This is evolution. An evolution which I hate personally (because of my love to warcraft and where it's coming from), but evolution. For me it's a deal breaker and never should have happenend to Warcraft, which defines itself for the everlasting war between alliance and horde, with some alliances of convenience in between against a bigger enemy. But: It was changed. A core pillar. Faction gameplay. Gameplay-wise it's smart, because of the imbalance between the popular horde and not that popular alliance and therefore waiting times / queueing times and other aspects. But from where warcraft is coming: No, seriously not. Those factions always were and usually are in war. And it's all about this world of war(craft).
So, it's more the question, if somebody insists and ignores broad feedback or listening to feedback and is willing to change things, if they are not good or, from the majority, not wanted. New World got problems in between, that's fact and right, that's why a lot of players left in between. It was NOT the change to a PvX game (away from full PvP game) that caused this reduction of player base, by contrast, it would never have been so crowded if it only would have been a pvp game. There are other parts in the content why it's still played, because, overall, it's a solid and nice MMO with lot of fun, good graphics, very good sound, good gathering and crafting (you know the new lead designer at intrepid, right?) and some really good ideas (town domination and leveling crafting stations, town board questing, ...) - so, my message is: Things can potentially change, if the market is desiring it. And that's not a bad thing overall. And such changes can be a high risk, but also insisting can be a high risk, if in the end only a minority likes it. Let's see what the upcoming testing and marketing/media brings us. Intrepid should seriously start to emphazise and focus all the pvp topics more and more, that would be my advice. Otherwise the "target audience" topic will be more difficult in the future.
Last point - just take it how you want, it's just a tiny advice:
You never should work 100h for something, also not, if it is fun for you. This will, definitly and always, lead to phases, where you are burned out and during or after this recovery you will have it much harder to get back to the normal working pace. The art is to combine family, job, hobbies and friends. It's not art to do only one or two out of those aspects, that's trivial and easy. In the end, you will miss out something, always. Balance it - just my advice, ignore it, it's all good.
someone who plays 15 hours every day isn't going to hit max level in 2 weeks even if 15 x 14 = 210, because there won't even be quests or mobs that will give him enough exp in those 2 weeks until nodes develop.
So not even the poor Guys in China who get forced to work as farming Bots like back in WoW Vanilla will be able to level up quickly.
A looonnng time ago in Vanilla WoW -> it felt like levelling a Character up to the Max Level, had meaning. It took time - so You carefully chose which Class for Example you want to take.
Because it easily took Months to level up a single Character.
I am very convinced - if People make the levelling Process as fast as it is for Example in WoW today -> then many People will quickly lose Interest in Ashes of Creation. Because it won't feel as meaningful to level Characters. If everything goes far to quick, then it will make the Game feel more empty. And this truly doesn't need to be.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
I would be fine with level acquisition being painfully slow if within each “level” you could develop new skills and abilities, essentially mini-levels.
A looonnng time ago in Vanilla WoW -> it felt like levelling a Character up to the Max Level, had meaning. It took time - so You carefully chose which Class for Example you want to take.
Because it easily took Months to level up a single Character.
True, the choice mattered and was impactful.
I am very convinced - if People make the levelling Process as fast as it is for Example in WoW today -> then many People will quickly lose Interest in Ashes of Creation. Because it won't feel as meaningful to level Characters. If everything goes far to quick, then it will make the Game feel more empty. And this truly doesn't need to be.
100% agree. But still it should not take way too long. Leveling for 1 year is too slow (feels time-gated then), leveling 3 months is too fast. I would appreciate 6-9 months, personally.
1. target audience
This is really a difficult topic. Take us (you and me) for instance. You are, obviously, a Lineage2 fan and you are watching Ashes for several reasons, but also for the reason, that it seems to be covering several L2 designs (it's the spiritual successor, at least a bit). That's why you are arguing (and sometimes "defending") especially those aspects. And that's fine and fair, it's because that is your paradigma of a good and fun MMO ("the first cut is the deepest") and all those sentences and quotes from Steven are attracting you particularly. Not only, but particularly.
I find the similarities between L2 and Ashes attractive because Steven did with L2 the same thing he did with several other games: he took systems and mechanics that worked well and implemented them in Ashes game design in the same or refined way.
Why I talk about those particular systems and mechanics? Because I know them pretty damn well and I know that they can work if implemented properly. I primarily focus on them because I know what I'm talking about. You could probably notice that I draw a strong line between the things I know and things I'm not familiar with and that's the reason why I don't talk about the latter.
And as long as you've not experienced another taste and why other designs can be huge fun, how would you be able to differentiate?
Well, I did. Take New World for example - it's a relatively simple casual-friendly game. I'm glad that Ashes has a node system as well and it is much deeper and complex compared to NW. There was plenty of things I didn't like in NW, but I spent a decent amount of time there because I focused on things I enjoyed instead of whining about the things I didn't like.
"Your" L2 is not in the best healthy state, so you are desiring some MMO coming, which satisfies your/this needs. All mentioned things will not be true 100%, but I guess you get the message.
That's the point that people often get confused with. I never spoke about post-2010 Lineage 2 in a positive way: the path the developers has chosen since then is absolutely terrible and the overwhelming majority of ex L2 players would agree with it on the spot. When I talk about L2, I talk about it's best years and patches - those that tens of thousands (probably lower hundreds of thousands) of players still enjoy on private servers as this is the only option to enjoy them.
I am in a similar position - not super rich but somewhat okay, despite the... current circumstances. The only difference is that don't have family/kids and I will never have them for the reasons that I won't share here as it would take a long time to share and it would be a really long comment.
For my personally, there is only one value which is rare, very rare: Time. That's why my approach - today - is different to my approach to gaming 20 or 10 years ago. But, I'm still a gamer, doing that not daily, but quite often in the evenings and sometimes silent weekends.
I get it and I agree with it. On the list of the most precious things time will be somewhere in top along with freedom, which includes ability to spend time however a person wants.
So, I'm not searching for an "Lineage 2 owpvp MMO" where I want to put 10h a day into the game, but I'm searching for a "high fantasy PvX MMO" where I want to put 1-3h per day into the game.
Whether you want it or not, time investment will always be an important factor when it comes to MMOs - probably not in 100% of them, but in majority for sure. Yet the point still stands. You'd realize how your concerns evaporize immediately, if you start focusing on having fun in games instead of other criteria.
I've participated in many PvPs. Some of them I won, some of them I didn't. But all of them were fun.
You can check out my comment in "The most memorable moment in MMOs" - it was the moment when my guild lost. Yet it was still awesome, because it was fun.
Things can potentially change, if the market is desiring it. And such changes can be a high risk, but also insisting can be a high risk, if in the end only a minority likes it.
Right, but the Steven's idea and vision is different. He is not trying to make another copy-paste MMO that is supposed to please a wide audience. We've seen many of those and there is little to no need in V.473.0
The problem is that many people feel anxious as Ashes may end up being a type of the game they never played before; and the general tendency for people to worry about literally everything despite the fact that if they look back at all the things they ever worried about - they'd realize that the overwhelming majority of those things has never actually happened.
You never should work 100h for something, also not, if it is fun for you. This will, definitly and always, lead to phases, where you are burned out and during or after this recovery you will have it much harder to get back to the normal working pace. The art is to combine family, job, hobbies and friends. It's not art to do only one or two out of those aspects. In the end, you will miss out something, always. Balance it - just my advice, ignore it, it's all good.
I know what burnout is and what it feels like. I also know how to prevent it - I just balance it in a different way. Basically, after 1-2-3 months of gringing IRL, I take a few days or a week off to recover and dive into whatever I do again.
You mentioned that time is important and I agree with that, 100%. That's the reason why I hate spending 2 months on something that can be done in 1 month and that's the reason why I do everything the way I do. Our life on planet Earth is limited and my time may be VERY limited, so if I want to achieve something - I will do my best to achieve it as soon as I possibly can.
If the IRL situation will follow an unfortunate scenario, I may end up being drafted. Theoretically, it shouldn't happen due to my health issues and other certain circumstances, but oh well... we live in a crazy time when literally anything can happen. Practically, it may and most likely will be a one-way ticket for me for the reasons I mentioned. But when it comes to a choice between "fight and die" or "just die", I'd obviously choose the first one. "Do what is right and whatever happens - happens" or "Do what you are to do and come what may" - those are common sayings here. So what I'm trying to say here - it's just the way I am and that's the mindset I adopted: no matter what you do, no matter what circumstances you're in, be it in game or IRL, just always use 300% of your potential. And for god's sake - don't whine and complain.
100% agree. But still it should not take way too long. Leveling for 1 year is too slow (feels time-gated then), leveling 3 months is too fast. I would appreciate 6-9 months, personally.
6-9 months is already a huge step in the right direction compared to ~2-3. I'd be happy if that happens
I find the similarities between L2 and Ashes attractive because Steven did with L2 the same thing he did with several other games: he took systems and mechanics that worked well and implemented them in Ashes game design in the same or refined way.
Sure, the flagging system is a very prominent example. Hopefully Steven is looking at more than 2-3 MMOs out there for "his" designs and refinements.
Well, I did. Take New World for example - it's a relatively simple casual-friendly game. I'm glad that Ashes has a node system as well and it is much deeper and complex compared to NW. There was plenty of things I didn't like in NW, but I spent a decent amount of time there because I focused on things I enjoyed instead of whining about the things I didn't like.
In terms of time it's not casual-friendly at all. Gathering/Crafting, for instance, needs huge amounts of time investment. The main issues from NW were: Lacking endcontent and bugs (the ones with huge impact -> server rollback).
That's the point that people often get confused with. I never spoke about post-2010 Lineage 2 in a positive way: the path the developers has chosen since then is absolutely terrible and the overwhelming majority of ex L2 players would agree with it on the spot. When I talk about L2, I talk about it's best years and patches - those that tens of thousands (probably lower hundreds of thousands) of players still enjoy on private servers as this is the only option to enjoy them.
Not sure if people get confused with that, when talking with an WoW fan you also usually hear from them the "good old times" and not the retail stories. Lineage 2, as an entire game, was very special. I would put it like this: Whoever (and for whatever reason) was not starting to play WoW in early 2000, was playing L2. The MMO market was not really big at that time and especially those two popular games divided the player base/market a lot.
I get it and I agree with it. On the list of the most precious things time will be somewhere in top along with freedom, which includes ability to spend time however a person wants.
You are right, but only, there is no real (or full) freedom, for nobody (except probably some very, I mean very, rich people). For 98% of the world there are frameworks and rules to be considered, otherwise a society and normal civilazation and living is not possible. Time is essential, freedom is just a dream.
Whether you want it or not, time investment will always be an important factor when it comes to MMOs - probably not in 100% of them, but in majority for sure. Yet the point still stands. You'd realize how your concerns evaporize immediately, if you start focusing on having fun in games instead of other criteria.
That's in general fine, but modern MMOs respect the player time enough that it is reasonable, and they provide meaningful content also for time-casual players. And that's important. The full old-fashioned way, and I know that because I've grinded beyond limits in WoW vanilla, is not working nowadays, because market and players changed. For young kids/teenagers (= potential customers for Ashes, because they will be 18 once Ashes releases) the MMO genre is inexisting, just not watched and followed. The target group spreads between guys that started MMO playing as teenagers and are 30-35 (or older, like me) today.
I've participated in many PvPs. Some of them I won, some of them I didn't. But all of them were fun.
Me too, but with a difference: PvP is fun, if both parties have the willingness to play pvp, that's a balanced state. I'm fully convinced about this fact and that's my personal approach to fair pvp battles. I would never, ever, start to attack an enemy player if he is way lower in power/level or obviously is not in a mood/situation/phase that he wants to pvp / fight back. And that's why, I personally, don't like this flagging system - but you like it, because you like the "competition" of being able to attack whenever it seems suitable for you and your own risk decision. I'm different. For my it makes no difference who wins, but it makes a difference under which conditions a pvp fight is done. And if the state is imbalanced and not equal, than it's no real pvp for me. Regarding this the gladiator arena player of mine is talking to you, where competition is the highest value you can think about, but it's under same conditions for everybody. On high ranks also when it comes to gear, because everybody has good gear. In GW2 (structured pvp) always, because once entering the arena everyone gets the same equal gear. So, it's never about who wins, but about same conditions to start a fight and willingness of both parties to play pvp.
Right, but the Steven's idea and vision is different. He is not trying to make another copy-paste MMO that is supposed to please a wide audience. We've seen many of those and there is little to no need in V.473.0
Sure, but this also is valid for "Lineage2 copy-paste". That's why I dont like that the views usually only cylcle about this game, because Ashes is more than that - hopefully, otherwise we know already which fate will be the result.
The problem is that many people feel anxious as Ashes may end up being a type of the game they never played before; and the general tendency for people to worry about literally everything despite the fact that if they look back at all the things they ever worried about - they'd realize that the overwhelming majority of those things has never actually happened.
Valid point, I agree. If I remember "old WoW" it was, overall, just a lot of fun. If I think about it in an objective way, some things were really bad, for modern/nowadays perspective. But, at this time, in earlier times, we just played and we didnt complain all the time. But, tbh, that's a mentality overall that changed during the last 1-2 decades. But I dont' want to start a generation debate right now, although it's something I love. Boomers, Gen X, Millenials. Love that stereotyping and discussing around it.
I know what burnout is and what it feels like. I also know how to prevent it - I just balance it in a different way. Basically, after 1-2-3 months of gringing IRL, I take a few days or a week off to recover and dive into whatever I do again.
If your life and your jobs are allowing this, and you can personally manage it in a healthy way, go for it. That wouldn't be possible in my job/position (with lots of responsibility) therefore a healthy pace is needed, because all I'm doing is based on thinking, planing and sustainable long-lasting results and prosperity.
You mentioned that time is important and I agree with that, 100%. That's the reason why I hate spending 2 months on something that can be done in 1 month and that's the reason why I do everything the way I do. Our life on planet Earth is limited and my time may be VERY limited, so if I want to achieve something - I will do my best to achieve it as soon as I possibly can.
Depening on ones personal situation that's fully understandable ofc. It's surprising, that your own mentality is like this but when it comes to Ashes every "when it's done" Duke Nukeem phrase is fine for you. So if Ashes comes 2030 you are still relaxed, but in other aspects: The faster, the better. Interesting.
If the IRL situation will follow an unfortunate scenario, I may end up being drafted. Theoretically, it shouldn't happen due to my health issues and other certain circumstances, but oh well... we live in a crazy time when literally anything can happen. Practically, it may and most likely will be a one-way ticket for me for the reasons I mentioned. But when it comes to a choice between "fight and die" or "just die", I'd obviously choose the first one. "Do what is right and whatever happens - happens" or "Do what you are to do and come what may" - those are common sayings here. So what I'm trying to say here - it's just the way I am and that's the mindset I adopted: no matter what you do, no matter what circumstances you're in, be it in game or IRL, just always use 300% of your potential. And for god's sake - don't whine and complain.
If you talk about your pesonal situation in your country, I hope the best for you, honestly, Flanker. As mentioned, I cant imagine whats going on there and I'm just like 1.500km away from "you". Again, all the best and hopefully nothing like this will happen and I wish you 20h, not 18h, in the game, but not getting out in that shitty situation you and your country is.
100% agree. But still it should not take way too long. Leveling for 1 year is too slow (feels time-gated then), leveling 3 months is too fast. I would appreciate 6-9 months, personally.
6-9 months is already a huge step in the right direction compared to ~2-3. I'd be happy if that happens
Well, that's from a "1-3 hours time to play" perspective, so me, a time-casual player.
I want to do a journey. I want to experience the world, my character, everything - in a regular and good pace. I like running, I dont like sprinting. But: If the running is done, I want to have a result, a reward for it. So, there should be a step into another or more content afterwards, so that there is, beside the good journey, still an achievement to reach max level and expand the gaming experience. Otherwise players, me as well, will stop after the leveling phase.
And this is where "sandpark" comes in place, for me. And interpid is calling it like this by themselves. I'm, you already know that, more the "themepark" player, but I want to do sandbox things as well, so, without having a special goal, just playing and seeing what happens. Here, for me, random owpvp with my friends/group/guildeis comes in place. Or attending an PvX event that appears randomly. I like that, I will play that and stopp my "thempark" topics for that. But: I need cool down phases, breaks, lazy sunday morning content - you know what I mean? I like fishing as example (as you know from our discussions before): Really, if I'm sitting in front of my pc on Sunday morning, with my cup of coffee, and I'm just gathering fish for my node/guild/myself I just don't like those little Flankers showing up and starting pvp-ing me You want a good fight, let's meet after my cup of coffee and my fresh fish and we will have good pvp - but than under same conditions.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I would say there are two possible approaches here:
1. You analyze which target audience you want to focus on, listen to their feedback and, roughly saying, make a game for them.
2. You make a game based on your vision and, again, roughly saying, whoever comes - comes.
Why not both?
Steven is definitely making a game based on his vision for gamers with his playstyle.
Typically, Casual players are not trying to keep up with Hardcore players.
They just want to have Quests and Tasks they can accomplish in 30-60 minutes - stuff to do that is more interesting and engaging and has an impact on the Zone of Influence than just grinding mobs.
There are challenges for those at the end of the extremes with respect to game time from a “normal” (Steven) time of around 4-6 hours per day.
1. Given the game is designed around groups, about 6-8 players, you’d need at least 5 other people who can match your rate of play per day. You could use a rotation of players who can fill in for time slots, but their progression won’t keep up. Finding your group or even “a” group gets to be more challenging at the extremes because you are either way ahead of the group or way behind it.
2. Content tied to node progression means a less efficient leveling experience. While the player at the higher extreme has a resource advantage based on the amount of time they can dedicate to resource gathering vs leveling, those resources may be below the character level and the economy might not keep up. This problem disappears if you have established nodes that can support those players who have that much time to play. Until then you may need to tackle resources and creatures in lawless zones. But will you have the node support to really cash in? I think you end up playing a waiting game for other players to catch up, which may be boring. This is less of a problem for the casual player.
3. Related to #2, on one extreme you have to live with underpowered gear for your level for a good period of time until the nodes and economy catches up with you, whereas on the lower end you have the feeling that you will always be under geared and can’t compete for those resources.
4. A lot of PVP content may seem unavailable to you if you’re at the extremes. And like the group and node issues, you now have a guild issue. You can have some advantages by being ahead of the leveling curve, but you are giving up experiences in the process. Being behind the leveling curve also gives the player a sense that the too much of the game isn’t for them.
5. For crafting/artisan progression it may be harder to progress without the support of other players via an economy and the scarcity of resources due to node progression.
The above appear to me to be some of the self limiting factors based on game design. How a player with more time than the average could go about it is split the time on leveling, resource gathering, exploration, crafting and mentorship. I think it would be a better experience to play that way, IMHO, than focusing on leveling alone. For the regular player it would be focus on 2-3 of these, and for the casual focus on 1, mainly leveling.
My point in an earlier post was that Intrepid could incentive this approach by adding a mechanism for diminishing returns. More time in any single activity reduces the rewards over time. Therefore to optimize your time, you switch activities. Players tend to be very meta, not all but I’d argue most. They want their character optimized in order to “win”, and will change their behavior and choices in order to do so.
So another point on the question on whether the leveling should be faster or slower, given Intrepid won’t provide the incentives I mentioned, how much time in a relative dead zone experience would you want to spend? That can be expressed in hours or days, doesn’t matter which since we can do conversions based on the player’s rate of play for comparison. For the average player, the dead zone experience would be zero to very minimal. For the casual it would be zero, but then their concern is more along the lines of not being able to keep up. Oh, and a dead zone experience could also refer to the grind to put it into perspective for the average to casual player. And then finally, how much of all of this really depends on the rate of time it takes Intrepid to roll out new content or for the players to generate it since this is more or less a sand park game? I used the Titan Steve example from Eve Online. Apparently the developers hadn’t yet finished the code for it until the accomplishment was already done. Meaning to the players it looked like nothing was happening (dead game time).
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It was used as an example to emphasize that if I was a "normal" player, I wouldn't care if leveling took thousands of hours in Ashes as long as it is fun.
1K hours to Level 50 Adventurer is not going to be fun.
It's going to be a tedious grind.
1K+ hours of fun gameplay that includes 225 hours to reach Level 50 Adventurer is baked into the Ashes game design.
I never said that Ashes must be a game for me and it's not the reason why I say it. Based on everything I know at the moment, I believe longer leveling will be a net positive for a game overall. Not because it fits my personal preferences and I'm trying to rationalize it somehow.
I mean... it can only be because it fits your personal preferences.
The net positive for Ashes will be the accumulated hours of gameplay for the numerous progression paths that are in addition to the 225 hours to reach Level 50 Adventurer. As well as time for Sieges and Caravans and the Events system and Dungeons/Raids and the Seasonal (3-4 month) updates.
I'm aware of that and once again: I never said that Ashes must be a game to please me in all ways, shapes or forms.
The point is that you said, "Ashes of Creation must dodge this bullet."
And then explained that instead of the solutions Ashes already have in their game design to avoid that bullet, they need to have a significantly slower Leveling speed for the Adventurer progression path.
Please, prior to quoting, care to understand the context in which this phrase was used. I was talking about a specific segment of people who want Steven to change the game's core pillars after he said a dozen of times that it is not going to happen. I didn't use it as "an excuse to justify literally anything"
Steven uses the quote whenever he talks about features that are niche and may not be for everyone - not just when people ask for changes to the design.
When Steven added The Open Seas -a significant change to the original design- he said that he understood that some people would not like that change but...
"We've always said that Ashes isn't made for everyone."
225 hours to Level 50 Adventurer doesn't need to be systemically longer because the Ashes design already includes numerous other Leveling paths. In addition to tons of other new content and events to enjoy after reaching Level 50 Adventurer.
6-9 months is already a huge step in the right direction compared to ~2-3. I'd be happy if that happens
Six Months should be enough, though.
Maybe Three to Four or above - but People shouldn't need more than Six Months. We won't live forever and the aging Audience can quickly be a dying Audience - as dear Asmongold said once.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
6-9 months is already a huge step in the right direction compared to ~2-3. I'd be happy if that happens
Six Months should be enough, though.
Maybe Three to Four or above - but People shouldn't need more than Six Months. We won't live forever and the aging Audience can quickly be a dying Audience - as dear Asmongold said once.
6 months would be somewhat acceptable. I would gladly agree to that
Comments
Interesting you play 18 hours a day so that puts you in the top 1-2% of gamers and you wanna lengthen the time for everyone which no matter what multiplier you use it will be just a blip for you and an eternity for everyone else. See the only thing this does is give you an advantage at max level i don't like the term endgame because that means there is an end which is incorrect. My point is the bigger the multiplier to the xp hours , days whatever metric you would use the more it highly benefits Flanker.
some basic math because unlike flanker it doesn't lie
current model is for the average hardcore gamer that's 5hr/day =45days
But taking Flanker into account 18hr/day would be 12.5 days giving him a 37 days of professions rare dungeon loot drops etc not bad but not game breaking.
If we take his slower policy and say multiply x4 things change considerably
Same hardcore player 5hr/day =180 days
Flanker 18hr/day =50 days now he would have a 130 day window to control resources dungeons crafting and it only gets worse and when you add in the average player 2.5 hr/ day =360 days they might as well not even play.
So why ask for this? could it be Flanker really wants content and for everyone to stop and enjoy it?
It's fine, don't worry. Maybe you can just reflect your "poor" in front of casual players, because casuals usually are everything, but not poor in all meanings, because there is a trivial reason why they are casuals: Because of a healthy and good real life, which doesnt allow them to put all their time into a computer game ;-)
Sure, you didnt. And I just stated, that Ashes should not be build around players or player types (would be the better wording) like you - that's nothing personal about "Flanker", I would say the same to another user. So, don't take it personal.
None taken and none would be taken even in case if offence was meant.
Alright.
Yeah, we've talked about that and it's terrible, without any doubt. I wish you all the best, honestly. Cant image your situation at all, although I'm living only a few kilometers (~1.500) in the west.
About grinding IRL: Good thing. Work is nothing bad. Stopping it for bad circumstances is not your fault. Continuing work is important for a working and social society and civilazation (just think about pension, getting money once you are old, this will decrease if you are not working enough during the ages you can do it, so prosperity overall will decrease).
Sure, talked and quoted that already above.
That's a good thing and several MMOs try this. Hopefully it's true for Ashes. I fully appreciate it, because leveling and getting the world and the character to know is one of the best parts of a new MMO. Beside the fact, that I dont like to pay for investing my time (but the other way round), that's the main second reason why I'm not playing in Alpha and quite sure will not play in Beta: I want to play, feel and learn the game after release in a better, less frustrating state, with not character wipes, less bugs/glithces, better polished systems and mechanics. Because my time is rare and I only invest it into reasonable and (as best as possible) finihsed games.
Sure, but I'm not putting "poor frequent player" in threads. That's the message I try to address to you - and as you seem to be a smart guy, you understand this. You can change perspective: Just think about "normal" players that invest 1-3 hours every evening, after work, hobbies, family into the game. Let's say from 20:00 to 23:00. If (!) Ashes considers this player time with respect, it will be succesful and get popular. If they game will be designed around 10h+ players, it will suffer empty realms within the first year. The frequent players will consume the content within 5-6 months, fully. All the rest will be far behind. And they will start to leave, player by player. The minority, the rest, will suffer from all the linked designs and mechanics soon. We've seen this in other MMOs several times. So, what you need, is, addressing content to all player types and combining them. What's the strength of a casual player? Lazy content, sometimes perhaps easy content. Two aspects a hardcore pvp player that is by heart loving to run around in 40raids and pvp-ing their enemies perhaps doesnt like, or doing boring town quests for the node progression. Ahses needs different player types for different goald and because players get different entertainment out of it - hopefully the design it well and NOT only for freuqent players.
It's also valid for them. We've seen several games promising A and delivering B. Maybe it's a question of being naive and being experienced when it comes down to this. In general, with or without context, it's a marketing phrase, an excuse argument. Whenever something is inconvenient: It's not for everyone! That's quite poor, of course it is. And, that some of this "core pillars" are under high criticism is not really suprising, right? Out of, idk, 60 (?) MMOs out there since more than 2 decades if you take one or two games and build everything around it, you for sure will get criticism, because if you've experienced more you can combine more of the good and working aspects.
Talking about 60 because this list seems to reflect the market situation still quite good, although its from 2023 (and German, but for the name of the games it makes no difference).
https://mein-mmo.de/groessten-mmorpgs-tier-list/
Beside that, I generally agree with this personal tier-list from the author (and thats subjective!!), perphaps with some minor updates between S- and A-Tier. But, if you design around C, D or E-tier games, of course you will get critism from players that are playing S-, A- or B-tier games, because they are good and that's why they are (in relation to others) popular and (still) successfull, although aged. And all of them are "not for everyone". Guild Wars 2 is a very very good example, because in terms of character progression it's very special - but, it's loved, gets Addon after Addon and I fully agree that is is still s-tier. But: It's fully different to WoW or FF (and both are for sure s-tier) in terms of gear progression. So: It's not for everybody. Hopefully now you got the message I want to address: Forget, for god sake, this marketing phrasing that something is not for everybody. Of course it's not. But that's not excuse for shitty designs or mechanics.
The funniest thing is that you think that the moment a casual player reaches the same level, a hardcore player loses the advantage. Take a look at your "maths" and learn to interpret the numbers properly. You don't even realize that in both cases with so-called "37 and 130 days" of my "advantage", the fact that an abstract "casual player" reaches the same level as me - the advantage does not magically disappear simply because of that. Because I would already spend 37 and 130 days correspondingly at the level cap, getting PvP/PvE experience, crafting/obtaining/enchanting my gear.
And once again. You may say whatever and make accusations. I would pass a lie detector publicly answering the question about the reasons for my suggestion about longer leveling and it would show I'm telling the truth. I don't make suggestions in order to get "an advantage" as I will have it anyway one way or another.
Hell, if you weren't blinded by your emotions and lack of common sense, you would notice that in another thread about HP bars I'm suggesting something that goes AGAINST my own interests for the sake of the game. But you simply ignore that desperately trying to spread conspiracy theories and accuse me in anything and everything.
Ah, nice, yeah, keep taking my words out of the context. The fact that you do it only displays your lack of actual arguments, so you have to make up at least something. Good job kid
Do we want to play Ashes of Creation for a few months, or we want it to captivate us for years, like a true MMO should?
If you'd choose months - fine, I'd appreciate your honesty. However, I would choose years hands down.
Haha I told you to not take it seriously
Yup, I never said that either. It's not the way it is supposed to be, unless it is some super niche game. But I never used that as a reason.
The point I was trying to make is that I grind IRL the same way as I grind in MMOs. If I choose to work, I find something that captivates me and I go full hardcore mode by doing that for ~100 hours/week, not the classic 40h/week. It's just the way I am - I either focus on something on 100% or I don't even start. Same applies to games.
Yeah, if your time is limited, you need to choose carefully and spend it wisely. Speaking of frustration of wipes - if we never get to talk in voice chat somewhere, remind me to tell you about one interesting psychological experiment regarding this. Don't wanna write another 1000000 words essay here
I mean yeah, there is a page with me playing MMOs casually in my biography as well. I just don't understand why people worry about something that I would never even consider worrying about.
I used to play on one of Lineage 2 classic servers casually at some point. Just so you know, leveling there was EXTREMELY long and hardcore (~2.5-3 years to reach level cap). I joined it when server was already like a year old and there were plenty of players that I would never catch up with even if I play 24/7.
But I didn't care about it for a single second - I played it because it was fun for me.
Exactly. Yet here people actually demand delivering "B" despite the fact they initially came for "A".
Yes and no? Each game has a target audience, including Ashes. I'm pretty sure this message was for those players who are not the target audience for Ashes for whatever reason.
I get your point.
There are systems in WoW, for example, that I absolutely don't like which is the reason why I never played it. But it doesn't mean those systems are bad - they are just not for me as they don't fit my personal preferences. And I would never even think about coming to some WoW forum or subreddit and demand to change them. This game is not for me, so be it.
1. target audience
This is really a difficult topic. Take us (you and me) for instance. You are, obviously, a Lineage2 fan and you are watching Ashes for several reasons, but also for the reason, that it seems to be covering several L2 designs (it's the spiritual successor, at least a bit). That's why you are arguing (and sometimes "defending") especially those aspects. And that's fine and fair, it's because that is your paradigma of a good and fun MMO ("the first cut is the deepest") and all those sentences and quotes from Steven are attracting you particularly. Not only, but particularly. And as long as you've not experienced another taste and why other designs can be huge fun, how would you be able to differentiate?
You can put 100% (for different reasons) into the game before it is launched, after it is launchend and you will potentially put you time also into the game when you are not playing it (content creation, information gathering, deep diving into mechanics, whatsoever). And all this for up to XY hours. "Your" L2 is not in the best healthy state, so you are desiring some MMO coming, which satisfies your/this needs. All mentioned things will not be true 100%, but I guess you get the message.
Now, take me (not personally, but my "player type"): I'm, nowadays, a casual gamer, but I'm defining it as "good player with lack of time" and not "bad player with lack of time". I insist on that differentiation, because I've been playing MMOs since more than 20 years and really a lot of them with different levels of success and achievements and different level of personal time invest depending on my age, job and family state. I'm married since about 15 years, got two lovely childs and some pets - grew up with dogs and different smaller pets, so our entire family is an animal-loving one. I'm additionaly in a (very good) job, smart (high) position, no financial or material issues and fears at all and although I'm not rich, not at all, there is nothing above avarage that I can't afford or just buy. House, garden, pool, cars - name it, I've worked long and hard until now and altough I'm not old I dont miss anything. Good thing, we are all healthy and in a good condition, so also this part is fine for us and me. For my personally, there is only one value which is rare, very rare: Time. That's why my approach - today - is different to my approach to gaming 20 or 10 years ago. But, I'm still a gamer, doing that not daily, but quite often in the evenings and sometimes silent weekends.
But, why the hell I'm still watching MMOs then, because they want the player to invest the most possible time, right? Well, because I love them. I usually love 90% of them. The playing together (or against) aspect, the social and grouping aspect, usually the high fantasy setting, the 3rd person gameplay, the combat with action bar skills, the levelling, the races, the classes, the roleplay which comes together with that (a bit), the world to be explored, the regions/bioms, the landscape, the graphics, the music/sound. I've played or I'm playing also all kind of fantasy 3rd (or 1st, just name Elder Scrolls) fantasy RPGs offline/singleplayer. It's my main gaming genre/area. There is no fantasy RPG which I didn't play. In MMOs I'm playing both, PvE and PvP. Never did only one of it, because I need the diversity. So, up from now, you should in an objective way say: Sure, you can play Ashes, it fits to the MMO style you want to play. Right? So, what else is keeping my watching Ashes, the owpvp mass-pvp-raid competitive game, instead of T&L, Archage2 or why I'm not playing WoW, GW2 or ESO, all games that are out there? Well, because sometimes it's to "Asian" (no offense meant!!) for me (FF14, T&L, ...) or it's just: I know that games already, played them, like them, but I'm saturated with the world, gameplay, content and so on. So, I'm not searching for an "Lineage 2 owpvp MMO" where I want to put 10h a day into the game, but I'm searching for a "high fantasy PvX MMO" where I want to put 1-3h per day into the game. And, I still think, that I'm not the wrong target audience for Ashes (when it comes to age you can guess the age of Steven and my age [I'm a bit older] - it's about guys knowing the MMO genre since 20y+ and playing computer since then), but I appreciate other gameplay, other designs and other content than - perhaps - you. Can we enjoy this game although we seem to be controversial player types? Yes, I'm convinced we can. If I would hate (!) PvP, which is not the case, then it was a wrong turn and I should stop watching and following Ashes. But I like pvp, I like it a lot. There is still (you know my opinion on that) that I just dont fully agree with the L2 flagging system, but that's what it is, I got attracted because of 15 other points the game deliveres in a smart and cool way, but not that aspect. That's a compromise (together with corruption mechanics) I have to deal with. The lawless zones ("pvp server" design) is something I appreciate, I'm used to it after many years of WoW pvp servers, but within normal "PvE/X" zones I've to experience, what happens and whether I like it or not and how corruption system will do it's job. If I only (!) would be here because of the flagging, I would feel like missing out 15 other cool points, to be honest. So, my personal balance seems to be fine, 80% of Ashes looks and sounds nice, some parts I don't like. But thats also in WoW, GW2 and ESO the case, so I've no worries, that Ashes can be a nice new home for me and my friends - also long-time home. So, that's my view on "player types" and I will not quote the Ashes wiki again which player times Steven and intrepid want to attract for their game and if you seriously watch website, media, streams you will see: 80% that is shown and how people are attracted is fantasy MMORPG stuff including... PvE. Races. Classes. Secondary archetypes. Progression. Nodes. Questing. Story Arcs. Skills. Weaopon Skills. Gearing. Gathering. Crafting. Housing. Nodes (incl. town board questing, ...). Yes, the core seems to be owpvp (which I like sometimes, but not always, as it's an imbalanced state of willingness to do pvp at this particular point of time) and object-orientated pvp (which I usually like always, because it's based on will of all involved parties do play pvp because of the event/object), but especially the details about flagging and owpvp is not obvious for the attracted target audience first, so intrepid will have to face this potential criticism and feedback until release - and afterwards, because there is no obligation that players are deep diving into every system and details before a game launches, that's one target audience which is doing that, but not the entire target group. Alternative: Do better marketing towards pvp design.
2. Just about the last paragraph: Sure, same is valid for me for all (!) MMOs I've played. There is no single MMO out there which covered everything to 100% desire - and this will never happen. But, feedback is changing games. WoW is different to its launch. And that's a good and correct evolution. Also vanilla, so now called "classic", changed since release in 2003/2004. It's NOT the same game, there are several improvements done. You cannot just stop the evolution of a game, especially not in the MMO genre. I want to provide one example, which is for me, as an "aged warcraft player" and huge fan of the entire universe, heartbreaking: There is cross-faction play included (what I've heard, I'm not playing WoW anymore). So, my heart is bleeding, because Orcs and Humans play together in normal small dungeons. But: This is evolution. An evolution which I hate personally (because of my love to warcraft and where it's coming from), but evolution. For me it's a deal breaker and never should have happenend to Warcraft, which defines itself for the everlasting war between alliance and horde, with some alliances of convenience in between against a bigger enemy. But: It was changed. A core pillar. Faction gameplay. Gameplay-wise it's smart, because of the imbalance between the popular horde and not that popular alliance and therefore waiting times / queueing times and other aspects. But from where warcraft is coming: No, seriously not. Those factions always were and usually are in war. And it's all about this world of war(craft).
So, it's more the question, if somebody insists and ignores broad feedback or listening to feedback and is willing to change things, if they are not good or, from the majority, not wanted. New World got problems in between, that's fact and right, that's why a lot of players left in between. It was NOT the change to a PvX game (away from full PvP game) that caused this reduction of player base, by contrast, it would never have been so crowded if it only would have been a pvp game. There are other parts in the content why it's still played, because, overall, it's a solid and nice MMO with lot of fun, good graphics, very good sound, good gathering and crafting (you know the new lead designer at intrepid, right?) and some really good ideas (town domination and leveling crafting stations, town board questing, ...) - so, my message is: Things can potentially change, if the market is desiring it. And that's not a bad thing overall. And such changes can be a high risk, but also insisting can be a high risk, if in the end only a minority likes it. Let's see what the upcoming testing and marketing/media brings us. Intrepid should seriously start to emphazise and focus all the pvp topics more and more, that would be my advice. Otherwise the "target audience" topic will be more difficult in the future.
Last point - just take it how you want, it's just a tiny advice:
You never should work 100h for something, also not, if it is fun for you. This will, definitly and always, lead to phases, where you are burned out and during or after this recovery you will have it much harder to get back to the normal working pace. The art is to combine family, job, hobbies and friends. It's not art to do only one or two out of those aspects, that's trivial and easy. In the end, you will miss out something, always. Balance it - just my advice, ignore it, it's all good.
So not even the poor Guys in China who get forced to work as farming Bots like back in WoW Vanilla will be able to level up quickly.
A looonnng time ago in Vanilla WoW -> it felt like levelling a Character up to the Max Level, had meaning. It took time - so You carefully chose which Class for Example you want to take.
Because it easily took Months to level up a single Character.
I am very convinced - if People make the levelling Process as fast as it is for Example in WoW today -> then many People will quickly lose Interest in Ashes of Creation. Because it won't feel as meaningful to level Characters. If everything goes far to quick, then it will make the Game feel more empty. And this truly doesn't need to be.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
Ashes of Creation is the reason I stream!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXOs3OsZMQWPi0TeNJ82ofA
100% agree. But still it should not take way too long. Leveling for 1 year is too slow (feels time-gated then), leveling 3 months is too fast. I would appreciate 6-9 months, personally.
Why I talk about those particular systems and mechanics? Because I know them pretty damn well and I know that they can work if implemented properly. I primarily focus on them because I know what I'm talking about. You could probably notice that I draw a strong line between the things I know and things I'm not familiar with and that's the reason why I don't talk about the latter.
Well, I did. Take New World for example - it's a relatively simple casual-friendly game. I'm glad that Ashes has a node system as well and it is much deeper and complex compared to NW. There was plenty of things I didn't like in NW, but I spent a decent amount of time there because I focused on things I enjoyed instead of whining about the things I didn't like.
That's the point that people often get confused with. I never spoke about post-2010 Lineage 2 in a positive way: the path the developers has chosen since then is absolutely terrible and the overwhelming majority of ex L2 players would agree with it on the spot. When I talk about L2, I talk about it's best years and patches - those that tens of thousands (probably lower hundreds of thousands) of players still enjoy on private servers as this is the only option to enjoy them.
I am in a similar position - not super rich but somewhat okay, despite the... current circumstances. The only difference is that don't have family/kids and I will never have them for the reasons that I won't share here as it would take a long time to share and it would be a really long comment.
I get it and I agree with it. On the list of the most precious things time will be somewhere in top along with freedom, which includes ability to spend time however a person wants.
Whether you want it or not, time investment will always be an important factor when it comes to MMOs - probably not in 100% of them, but in majority for sure. Yet the point still stands. You'd realize how your concerns evaporize immediately, if you start focusing on having fun in games instead of other criteria.
I've participated in many PvPs. Some of them I won, some of them I didn't. But all of them were fun.
You can check out my comment in "The most memorable moment in MMOs" - it was the moment when my guild lost. Yet it was still awesome, because it was fun.
Link: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/473686/#Comment_473686
I addressed it above
Right, but the Steven's idea and vision is different. He is not trying to make another copy-paste MMO that is supposed to please a wide audience. We've seen many of those and there is little to no need in V.473.0
The problem is that many people feel anxious as Ashes may end up being a type of the game they never played before; and the general tendency for people to worry about literally everything despite the fact that if they look back at all the things they ever worried about - they'd realize that the overwhelming majority of those things has never actually happened.
I know what burnout is and what it feels like. I also know how to prevent it - I just balance it in a different way. Basically, after 1-2-3 months of gringing IRL, I take a few days or a week off to recover and dive into whatever I do again.
You mentioned that time is important and I agree with that, 100%. That's the reason why I hate spending 2 months on something that can be done in 1 month and that's the reason why I do everything the way I do. Our life on planet Earth is limited and my time may be VERY limited, so if I want to achieve something - I will do my best to achieve it as soon as I possibly can.
If the IRL situation will follow an unfortunate scenario, I may end up being drafted. Theoretically, it shouldn't happen due to my health issues and other certain circumstances, but oh well... we live in a crazy time when literally anything can happen. Practically, it may and most likely will be a one-way ticket for me for the reasons I mentioned. But when it comes to a choice between "fight and die" or "just die", I'd obviously choose the first one. "Do what is right and whatever happens - happens" or "Do what you are to do and come what may" - those are common sayings here. So what I'm trying to say here - it's just the way I am and that's the mindset I adopted: no matter what you do, no matter what circumstances you're in, be it in game or IRL, just always use 300% of your potential. And for god's sake - don't whine and complain.
In terms of time it's not casual-friendly at all. Gathering/Crafting, for instance, needs huge amounts of time investment. The main issues from NW were: Lacking endcontent and bugs (the ones with huge impact -> server rollback).
Not sure if people get confused with that, when talking with an WoW fan you also usually hear from them the "good old times" and not the retail stories. Lineage 2, as an entire game, was very special. I would put it like this: Whoever (and for whatever reason) was not starting to play WoW in early 2000, was playing L2. The MMO market was not really big at that time and especially those two popular games divided the player base/market a lot.
You are right, but only, there is no real (or full) freedom, for nobody (except probably some very, I mean very, rich people). For 98% of the world there are frameworks and rules to be considered, otherwise a society and normal civilazation and living is not possible. Time is essential, freedom is just a dream.
That's in general fine, but modern MMOs respect the player time enough that it is reasonable, and they provide meaningful content also for time-casual players. And that's important. The full old-fashioned way, and I know that because I've grinded beyond limits in WoW vanilla, is not working nowadays, because market and players changed. For young kids/teenagers (= potential customers for Ashes, because they will be 18 once Ashes releases) the MMO genre is inexisting, just not watched and followed. The target group spreads between guys that started MMO playing as teenagers and are 30-35 (or older, like me) today.
Me too, but with a difference: PvP is fun, if both parties have the willingness to play pvp, that's a balanced state. I'm fully convinced about this fact and that's my personal approach to fair pvp battles. I would never, ever, start to attack an enemy player if he is way lower in power/level or obviously is not in a mood/situation/phase that he wants to pvp / fight back. And that's why, I personally, don't like this flagging system - but you like it, because you like the "competition" of being able to attack whenever it seems suitable for you and your own risk decision. I'm different. For my it makes no difference who wins, but it makes a difference under which conditions a pvp fight is done. And if the state is imbalanced and not equal, than it's no real pvp for me. Regarding this the gladiator arena player of mine is talking to you, where competition is the highest value you can think about, but it's under same conditions for everybody. On high ranks also when it comes to gear, because everybody has good gear. In GW2 (structured pvp) always, because once entering the arena everyone gets the same equal gear. So, it's never about who wins, but about same conditions to start a fight and willingness of both parties to play pvp.
Sure, but this also is valid for "Lineage2 copy-paste". That's why I dont like that the views usually only cylcle about this game, because Ashes is more than that - hopefully, otherwise we know already which fate will be the result.
Valid point, I agree. If I remember "old WoW" it was, overall, just a lot of fun. If I think about it in an objective way, some things were really bad, for modern/nowadays perspective. But, at this time, in earlier times, we just played and we didnt complain all the time. But, tbh, that's a mentality overall that changed during the last 1-2 decades. But I dont' want to start a generation debate right now, although it's something I love. Boomers, Gen X, Millenials. Love that stereotyping and discussing around it.
If your life and your jobs are allowing this, and you can personally manage it in a healthy way, go for it. That wouldn't be possible in my job/position (with lots of responsibility) therefore a healthy pace is needed, because all I'm doing is based on thinking, planing and sustainable long-lasting results and prosperity.
Depening on ones personal situation that's fully understandable ofc. It's surprising, that your own mentality is like this but when it comes to Ashes every "when it's done" Duke Nukeem phrase is fine for you. So if Ashes comes 2030 you are still relaxed, but in other aspects: The faster, the better. Interesting.
If you talk about your pesonal situation in your country, I hope the best for you, honestly, Flanker. As mentioned, I cant imagine whats going on there and I'm just like 1.500km away from "you". Again, all the best and hopefully nothing like this will happen and I wish you 20h, not 18h, in the game, but not getting out in that shitty situation you and your country is.
I want to do a journey. I want to experience the world, my character, everything - in a regular and good pace. I like running, I dont like sprinting. But: If the running is done, I want to have a result, a reward for it. So, there should be a step into another or more content afterwards, so that there is, beside the good journey, still an achievement to reach max level and expand the gaming experience. Otherwise players, me as well, will stop after the leveling phase.
And this is where "sandpark" comes in place, for me. And interpid is calling it like this by themselves. I'm, you already know that, more the "themepark" player, but I want to do sandbox things as well, so, without having a special goal, just playing and seeing what happens. Here, for me, random owpvp with my friends/group/guildeis comes in place. Or attending an PvX event that appears randomly. I like that, I will play that and stopp my "thempark" topics for that. But: I need cool down phases, breaks, lazy sunday morning content - you know what I mean? I like fishing as example (as you know from our discussions before): Really, if I'm sitting in front of my pc on Sunday morning, with my cup of coffee, and I'm just gathering fish for my node/guild/myself I just don't like those little Flankers showing up and starting pvp-ing me
Steven is definitely making a game based on his vision for gamers with his playstyle.
Typically, Casual players are not trying to keep up with Hardcore players.
They just want to have Quests and Tasks they can accomplish in 30-60 minutes - stuff to do that is more interesting and engaging and has an impact on the Zone of Influence than just grinding mobs.
1. Given the game is designed around groups, about 6-8 players, you’d need at least 5 other people who can match your rate of play per day. You could use a rotation of players who can fill in for time slots, but their progression won’t keep up. Finding your group or even “a” group gets to be more challenging at the extremes because you are either way ahead of the group or way behind it.
2. Content tied to node progression means a less efficient leveling experience. While the player at the higher extreme has a resource advantage based on the amount of time they can dedicate to resource gathering vs leveling, those resources may be below the character level and the economy might not keep up. This problem disappears if you have established nodes that can support those players who have that much time to play. Until then you may need to tackle resources and creatures in lawless zones. But will you have the node support to really cash in? I think you end up playing a waiting game for other players to catch up, which may be boring. This is less of a problem for the casual player.
3. Related to #2, on one extreme you have to live with underpowered gear for your level for a good period of time until the nodes and economy catches up with you, whereas on the lower end you have the feeling that you will always be under geared and can’t compete for those resources.
4. A lot of PVP content may seem unavailable to you if you’re at the extremes. And like the group and node issues, you now have a guild issue. You can have some advantages by being ahead of the leveling curve, but you are giving up experiences in the process. Being behind the leveling curve also gives the player a sense that the too much of the game isn’t for them.
5. For crafting/artisan progression it may be harder to progress without the support of other players via an economy and the scarcity of resources due to node progression.
The above appear to me to be some of the self limiting factors based on game design. How a player with more time than the average could go about it is split the time on leveling, resource gathering, exploration, crafting and mentorship. I think it would be a better experience to play that way, IMHO, than focusing on leveling alone. For the regular player it would be focus on 2-3 of these, and for the casual focus on 1, mainly leveling.
My point in an earlier post was that Intrepid could incentive this approach by adding a mechanism for diminishing returns. More time in any single activity reduces the rewards over time. Therefore to optimize your time, you switch activities. Players tend to be very meta, not all but I’d argue most. They want their character optimized in order to “win”, and will change their behavior and choices in order to do so.
So another point on the question on whether the leveling should be faster or slower, given Intrepid won’t provide the incentives I mentioned, how much time in a relative dead zone experience would you want to spend? That can be expressed in hours or days, doesn’t matter which since we can do conversions based on the player’s rate of play for comparison. For the average player, the dead zone experience would be zero to very minimal. For the casual it would be zero, but then their concern is more along the lines of not being able to keep up. Oh, and a dead zone experience could also refer to the grind to put it into perspective for the average to casual player. And then finally, how much of all of this really depends on the rate of time it takes Intrepid to roll out new content or for the players to generate it since this is more or less a sand park game? I used the Titan Steve example from Eve Online. Apparently the developers hadn’t yet finished the code for it until the accomplishment was already done. Meaning to the players it looked like nothing was happening (dead game time).
It's going to be a tedious grind.
1K+ hours of fun gameplay that includes 225 hours to reach Level 50 Adventurer is baked into the Ashes game design.
I mean... it can only be because it fits your personal preferences.
The net positive for Ashes will be the accumulated hours of gameplay for the numerous progression paths that are in addition to the 225 hours to reach Level 50 Adventurer. As well as time for Sieges and Caravans and the Events system and Dungeons/Raids and the Seasonal (3-4 month) updates.
The point is that you said, "Ashes of Creation must dodge this bullet."
And then explained that instead of the solutions Ashes already have in their game design to avoid that bullet, they need to have a significantly slower Leveling speed for the Adventurer progression path.
Steven uses the quote whenever he talks about features that are niche and may not be for everyone - not just when people ask for changes to the design.
When Steven added The Open Seas -a significant change to the original design- he said that he understood that some people would not like that change but...
"We've always said that Ashes isn't made for everyone."
225 hours to Level 50 Adventurer doesn't need to be systemically longer because the Ashes design already includes numerous other Leveling paths. In addition to tons of other new content and events to enjoy after reaching Level 50 Adventurer.
Six Months should be enough, though.
Maybe Three to Four or above - but People shouldn't need more than Six Months. We won't live forever and the aging Audience can quickly be a dying Audience - as dear Asmongold said once.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
6 months would be somewhat acceptable. I would gladly agree to that