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To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Yes its PvX but when people can pk you and you feel the difference it can have a negative effect. Where you have the level grind and than gear grind as well.
To me 45 days give or take sounds good to me, which people trying to heavily power level can be slowed down bit from node growth and pvp between each other with less spots. THat doesn't even mean you can play every day or as much time as things come up (im not going to count the people that will book time off and do nothing else but play the game that is silly).
Things might take a bit longer as well, im sure they will test things out to find the sweet spot. But I see the average good player from hitting max lvl in 2 months. That sounds like a pretty good substantial time frame to me, with hitting max lvl doesn't mean the game is over...
45 Days, ok what would you consider that in hours played? as its harder to say in days as people play for different amount of hours daily and weekly, and if you don't mind me asking as your a hardcore player how many hours do you roughly put into games a week?.
I don't go based off myself for what I play. I'm more about quality than quality when it comes to leveling so long as it feels good based on the time they are going for. As my focus being a hardcore player is more the end game loop on what I will be doing in repetition and wanting that to keep me entertained for a more infinite amount of hours.
Also lets not mix it up with people trying to use the indication "players are rushing to max level" as a means to skip content when its a fresh mmorpg that isn't really going to have a meta to rush through. It simply just means those players play more, and the least competitive thing for pvp imo is when it when the scale is leaning heavily on who plays more to win a fight. Longer leveling makes that scale worse. (important to note I'm talking about when it leans heavily towards a direction again, balance between that and progression is important for players feeling of growth)
The time frame they have to me seems fine, but i need to actually test it myself to see how it feels when I'm playing he game to give a more proper answer. And that could go from slower to faster depending on the content.
Is it actually difficult to achieve or is it just time consuming?
Using helldivers as an example; both medium and the hardest difficulty take roughly 40mins to complete all objectives (due to movement speed and map design) but have vastly different skill requirements for success. If helldivers shows anything, it's that getting players I to the difficulty they want as fast as possible is good game design. In the context of an MMO this means not gating content behind arbitrary timegates.
My point :
1. Longer leveling = more useful gear at any level = less trash items = better IG economy.
2. Longer leveling = Leveling = challenge = stakes for xp = Fun
Your point :
1. Longer leveling = Prevents you to be competitive
2. Longer leveling = Impacts negatively casuals
This is how could be summarized your main ideas right ?
What actually must be taken into account is the amount of content locked behind the level cap. At this point, if I recall correctly, it is only freeholds. But hardcore players will get there first anyway
yes, thats fair to say and its usually like that. the reason i said what i said its cuz it depends on the game. for example, in forsaken world, people would stick to level 30 gear even at max level (60) because it was so much easier and cheaper to upgrade. upgrading it would open up gem slots, and gems would make you really really powerful. someone in level 20-30 gear with gems was stronger than someone with level 60 gear and no gems, so people would stay in low level gear for a while. of course, at some point you will have the money to upgrade your level 60 gear XD but that would take a while...
and well you played ro, so you knwo th elevel of the items its not usually tied to the level of the monsters. some of the best cards and items can be acquired at lower levels. excluding mvp stuff
Make sense and I hope there will be a real value for any items lower than max level boost the economy.
About RO yes you are right about the cards, a MVP card on a crap gear was still costing high price, same for cards from noob mobs selling a very high price. That was the magic of RO, you could get rich after 2 days playing ). But at the same price, RO was an excellent game for the reason that the gear had very specific purpose and you could switch to get a totally different char.
In most modern MMO I played, there was not enought significative reasons to have more than 2 gears for most of activities (1 for PvP, one for PvE). Usually, more than 2 differents gears is kind of comfortable in some cases but not so essential to be a total game changer as it was in RO (like Gostring card making you invincible on neutral attacks).
But again, all what at I tell is suppositon and I still have the trauma of New World with mass crap items to salvage + shitty economy and I don't want to go back into this waste of time. Wait and see !
Gear value will be increased based on (leveling time * value of gear) this doesn't mean its a good thing as you get a substantial value you will have to immensely increase leveling time which will have a negative impact in other areas. A lot of questions on gear we still don't know so its hard to judge the value tbh.
Longer leveling is not a challenge, there are no stakes it is just about who is playing more. That is a old school mentality but players have evolved since then as it is easier to level do to player skills and knowledge. All answer are there for people to see, be it reading, interacting with your guild easily, strangers easily, videos tow watch, etc.
Yes longer leveling can negative impact casuals because of PvP. IF someone is a higher level that you and you can roll a group of 20 easily because of that. This issue is most compound if leveling time is unreasonable and a casual player feels like they would have to play for a year just to kill someone maybe.
There are other elements as I've said already I've talked about through this conversation. The world size is finite if you increase leveling time that means you need to have content for that unless you are increasing leveling time and making people grind the same content longer (which at that cause there is no point hugely increasing leveling time).
That means you need to eat up more places in the world and have less content for people that reach max level, and are taking resources away to making a bunch of lower level content. do to how the game works with nodes being placed anywhere and growing (though I'm guessing maybe some areas might still be focused on higher levels unsure on this). You are looking at many different nodes / areas and have to account for players being spread out meaning ((nodes / areas * content)*(Levels)) and making a lot of additional content to account for unpredictable player placement. So you can see how large those numbers get where you can focus on more harder end game content from 45-50.
Do to all the additional content being made a lot of it won't be done by players or they will be over leveled for it. A lot of this content will not account for all tools players have based on their levels since its content made for lower level players. Where if you had more focus on higher level you would be about to create a more steady experience of difficulty that can't just be overcome with levels.
Again 45 days to get max level is most like going to take longer and that isn't accounting for you doing other things as its just a rough number. Having end game loops is the most important so people that get towards the end do not get bored. All lower level content will end up being gear / level checked and won't be a challenge. That isn't going to be what keeps people playing, it doesn't mean for those 45-ish days it won't be a great experience regardless.
I feel you are looking at 45 days and not really giving the number respect, that is a lot of time for leveling. That doesn't mean the game is done when you hit max leveling. Looking at multiple old school mmorpgs that is where you get into different tiers of max level.
With anything bad new world should not be used as an example. The game had every single kind of issue. Its not a benchmark of fear that should be used. There was mass duping in that game with a ton of other exploits.
If a game is doing bad things along the lines of new world that is the worse kind of sign. But using new world is like saying "The Day Before" did this so this and using that as expectation for all games like it is normal.
I'm sorry but I think you need to think more open about this, i have asked about 45 days before and hours played. this is just a simple maths game 45days is roughly 6 weeks if a casual plays 20-25 hours a week that's 120 hrs of leveling to max level... sound long/short? now think of the hardcore guild players people that put in numbers 35-40 hrs a week 5 hrs a night and 20 hrs on the weekend. that 120 hrs to max level now takes these guys 3 weeks. in 3 weeks they have done all the content it takes to get max level. 7 years in the waiting to max level in 3 weeks this is why I said you should think about leveling in terms of hours played if it takes 400- 500 hrs played to get max level then even the hardcore will take time getting to max (11 weeks with 450 hrs to max)this seems alot more reasonable for hardcore and for casuals alike.
I say reasonable as you have to think once max level you want to start playing end game stuff but if the world only has say level 3 nodes in that 3 weeks of leveling then you wont even have half the required nodes/buildings mechanics in place to be able to enjoy the end game content.
also for your concern over max level content, we don't know yet but with the world being dynamic means that as nodes level up, it may change the area around it to open content for the avg level of players contributing to that node area. meaning if a lot of them are max or close it will open dungeons and have mobs in the area that will be a challenge to them. as well as the the player content of seiges and caravans and raids bosses, world bosses. story bosses.
if they choose to make max level 500 hrs say they will make the content for those amount of hrs, it will be structured content to push you to areas to keep leveling until max. and that is only one line of content.
A game is not going to be based off a hardcore player that doesn't take time off work, which is the 1% of players.
A mmorpg is not just leveling either so you need to stop thinking you hit max level and have beat the game.
You are looking at nodes leveling up and adding in copium its not going to account for the level of players that are leveling the node and making monsters of that level.... Can we not making up weird guesses on the system. As nodes open up there will unlock more higher level content naturally with larger dungeons, which there will be a limited amount of nodes btw with not all content open. Meaning less places for players and into my point before about (content*node *(level))
500 hours doesn't matter either for a hardcore player, you are trying to say that it will take 11 weeks? You can do 400-500 in a month if you are being hardcore. What matters is making sure the end game loop is fun and repeatable it doesn't matter how many hours you throw hardcore players will do it and you make the game worse for it with the elite able to just pvp everyone easily for a longer period of time and horde more power / gear.
I'll repeat what i said before again extended leveling for the sake of extended leveling is not a positive to the game. It needs to be fun and make sense. Just because someone wants to no life doesn't mean to artificially extend the time, nor does the leveling time need to be ridiculously long for no reason.
There is a ton of other things to do in the game besides just leveling with no one being a pro, and most likely gates that will stop hardcore players from gaining a equal amount of experience with less nodes developed an less higher level mobs. Making a point casuals will play and only care about leveling is silly and not advance in other aspects oft he game like crafting.
I think I said in one of my earlier posts that 75% maxing level 25% play time in end game, if the end game is good people will stay if its not you lose retention. so i dont think hitting max level is wining any MMORPG. but it is a very large part of the experience of playing one.
and i agree with your point that extended levelling just for the sake of it is senseless, like you said having gates that will stop hardcore players from gaining a equal amount of exp with less nodes developed and less higher mobs, that is extending levelling in a unfair way that would be super negative to players. however i think i made the point of not levelling in 3 week of open serves as the world might not grow that fast, so max leveing should maybe based on the ability of the player base to raise the world to unlock and fulfil some end game activities.
but you don't know that it wouldn't ether and as i said in my last post i just think you need to be more open minded, if it did do that it would solve a levelling problem and be dynamic would it not. And again you say about node leveling up giving better content and that this area and space is limited but we know the space and we know the amount of player per serve so they know the amount of area that will be needed and will be available to be used for node leveling content and story driven leveling content.
I personally think that with the way nodes will level, that time to hitting max level will be worked out to be around the time it takes to get nodes to at least 3 maybe 4 so there is some higher level content to be played like caravans, sieges, high raid bosses. that could be 120hrs of game time it could be 500.
I don't agree with you and that is why i find the root of your answer tot his wrong. 25% end game content pretty much means no content. You spend all this time leveling and you have a minimal amount of content to do and there aren't even instances lmao.
So im guessing you argue as casuals level devs suddenly make 50% more content in less than a year than all to development time? Like you realize this would kill the game right, you do level in a mmorpg but that should be a small amount of time to spend on the game in comparison. 500 hours is nothing..
Open mind (for advanced concepts not talked about) = Copium = people over hyped for a game = they say its bad because it doesn't meet their expectations.
You are looking at node progression in the wrong way its more like keys that unlock content with a complex form of logic tied to other events that can open up because of node growth. It isn't players of this lvl did this so content scales to these levels of players. The only scaling they talked about was dungeons becoming more difficult based on progression.
This also works against what they talked about having lower level and high level players coming to the same town. It would mean a level 50 town wouldn't see lower levels because its scaled to those levels for most its content.
I don't see this happen, of course they could "scale mobs up" that doesn't really make them more difficult if its lower level mobs that don't account for your new tools. Of course they can do special events and such that might effect things but the general goal of their node system was never said mobs level based on the level of players building up the node. Just as it has a negative e impact from lvl 50 to lvl 1. It be the same on a lower level node having less content for lvl 50's now in the area.
not agreeing with me is fine miss Quoting me is not. i said 25% end game and if its good people will stay if not you will lose retention. the 25% end game content is the whole point of the game its the repayable loop that encompasses guild wars, caravan events, world bosses, high level uncovered raid bosses, castle sieges, high level questing that's opened due to high level nodes. and this content is repayable endlessly as its more player driven content as to where and when it will be available and when its available. and I'm not saying its like this I'm saying that how i see it would work out right now.
we know that nodes level up and that could be tied to other events to open up more content/events. but we don't know that it is not tied to the avg players level that gave it node exp to level. or the avg level of it citizens, or any of those thing. but you clearly say it is not. that's another opinion of yours and not a fact. as they haven't talked about a lot of the mechanics in the game, i prefer to be on the open side of thing and have a discussion where it might be possible until there a reason why it wouldn't be... and i don't see a reason why it couldn't be tied to the avg level of players gaining exp for the node.
towns wont have levels but say the avg player gain exp to a level 5 node was 50max we know the nodes around them will become vassals and so the content for the main node might be 50 and maybe one other node but the other nodes its tied to might be 40 and 30 a spread out, and that wouldnt stop anyone still going to that town and using it or even getting quests from it if you were lower level you would just have to be carefull of the PVE content in that area as its not for you yet....
again we know there are only a certain amount of higher tear nodes so there will still be plenty of lower nodes/towns for lower level players. as for "mob scaling" it is one of the worst PVE content there is(dont agree with it at all, its lazy). i like walking into a area and seeing level 35 mobs when I'm level 25 it means i shouldn't be there yet and its content i have to look forward too..
Tell me something positive about level scaling that you like? explain your best way, you could see ashes levelling work out in the world....?
Not miss quoting in fact if u are counting pvp end game in that 25% than your take is even worse than i thought....
Again you are making things up node level is not tied to the level of players leveling it up....please stop bringing up that point or bring a quote that says based on the level of people contributing the mobs in that area are of that node I've already mention how what you are saying doesnt make sense for what they are going for in previous post you are just repeating this...
You missed the point of my post... about levels. Increasing levels of lower level mobs intended for less tool set of players does not equal a greater challenge. Im leaving it at that and not talking about mob scaling as that wasnt the point of my comment.
yeah true. and people are too used to item systems like nw or wow T_T
i really liked ro system ;3
Progression systems:
Game Loops:
When we talk about time to max level we are only talking about time to max 1 progression system. We are not talking about time to max character power, which would include all of the progression systems. There should be some kind of scaling difficulty where the average person can get max level in 250 hrs, but they are still only 75% of max character power. Time to 100% could still be 1000 hours or more depending on how the world takes shape, and what objectives you have. Just make the time/difficulty exponential so that the last few bits of character power to max are the hardest/longest to get and you can keep the progression chasers around while the casuals are still having fun and close enough in relative power to be useful.
I mean, heck, if someone has the objective to become a mayor, how many hours should that take? It could take them years just because of how the world takes shape, or 1 month, or never.
One defining feature of AoC that generates end game content is the node siege loop. Once you are max level/power there is still plenty of content and objectives to create for yourself and your friends due to this aspect. For all we know it could take 100 hours of preparation just to be ready to do a node siege.
These are all aspects that the devs can tweak depending on the systems that people enjoy more/less etc.
Yes, it's great that there are several progression objectives to achieve. But the OP was talking about leveling, not the others.
So, what's interesting is to understand the game mechanics that are linked to leveling and to see how they are impacted by the speed of leveling.
Long leveling phases in games tuned around Food Buffs/Item Repairs, force players to have economic skills, or a type of social skills meant to replace those economic skills, to avoid slowing down.
So, whether you think it's good or bad, that this is necessary, I'm here to argue that in Ashes it is a fact that longer leveling would result in more engagement with more systems that require additional skills, and that would, itself, be moreso 'playing the game'.
This is the reason why I (possibly incorrectly) always assume that games which are meant to have serious economies and long leveling phases, will be like this, and the leveling will matter quite a lot. For this to really impact things, leveling can't be too much faster than Ashes, and I definitely understand why a lot of oldschool players would want it to be slower.
I personally just don't want it to be slower if the Economy is a certain way, because then it's not engaging or challenging. I also don't want all the Econ Challenge to be pushed to the endgame part, since I think this makes games worse in terms of retention and the 'casual v hardcore' gap.
I can't agree more on that. I'm also fine with a fast leveling if the economy is running well. But in the state of available information, I do not see how the value of items of different levels can be preserved.
Apart from the economic aspect, I see the slow leveling as a major PvP challenge. In my opinion, slowing down enemy guilds is a fundamental point in an MMO with a strong PvP component.
You can slow down a strong guild you just create a bigger difference between hardcore guilds and less hardcore guilds.
This is not what we're talking about, you just didn't understand. This is an economy thing, and so-called hardcore guilds don't auto-win economics in games, if anything, they suffer relative to less hardcore guilds.
EDIT: I just realized that your statement actually had no meaning, and my parser just straight up 'made up a meaning for it to have'. If you choose to roll with the meaning that it has been assigned, my response stands, though.
You are suggesting that you are not talking about economics now? " My point still stands
Nope, I'm agreeing. However you believe you can slow down 'strong' guilds by being 'hardcore' without economics being involved, I'm sure it's true. A discussion you can have with Myosotys.
I never made that point, my point is without economics increased leveling experience doesn't slow down larger guilds
Now we're at 'larger'. You know as well as I do that I don't really want to converse with you here, but I definitely don't want to imply you said something you didn't say. Please restate your point using either the words 'stronger' or 'hardcore' vs not.
'Larger' leads into even more confusion. This is all I ask.
Ya i mean hardcore I'm gaming.
Thanks a lot, I'll make a Splinter Thread and we can continue there, since that becomes a PvP question or an Econ question, not a Leveling Speed question.
(to be clear it wasn't that I don't want to talk about it with you at all, I'm at least neutral, I meant earlier that I didn't want to derail this thread, so my bad on that).