Exactly!
Ideally, most combat will not be about "solo" rotations.
We should have time to assess what our groupmates are doing during the battle and determine how we can best synergize our abilities.
Our Mage just hit a Chilled target with Frostbolt - which means my Ranger can try to stack that CC with a Nature-based Root - which gives the Spellsword time to position for an Ice-Augmented Leap Strike.
Rather than just having the Mage mash their "rotations" as quickly as the Cooldowns will allow.
dont you think what you described here needs bigger TTK to happen? Coz you talk about small ttk, but then you will just see - Mage chilled target and used 1 lighting skill, then ranger used 1 skill and the target is dead.
Idk why you are so hung on cooldowns and rotations,
Group oriented combat means the 1v1 ttk has to be bigger, so you dont get oneshoted in group fights.
Imagine being fighter and has to lead a charge to the enemy healer - you use charge and die mid air while flying from dmg. Fun right?
Or maybe your idea of the fighter gameplay is - to stay behind your ranged party members afk for 80% of the fight, and then take the right moment to engage on someone?
one way is to grant temporal immunities or large defensives to allow the fighter to soak the damage and survive it healthy
And let tanks force you to target them, thereby extending the life of the glass cannons.
Let mages and rangers disengage and make it the job of the aggressors to tackle them.
In other words give the classes survival tools and make it their responsibility to use them. And yes you will die quickly sometimes, and yes opponents will quickly get the upper hand on you at times. Who cares?
You guys imagine these epic tactical engagements with 40 second ttks when what really pans out an overwhelming majority of the time is a long drawn out snooze fest.
one way is to grant temporal immunities or large defensives to allow the fighter to soak the damage and survive it healthy
And let tanks force you to target them, thereby extending the life of the glass cannons.
Let mages and rangers disengage and make it the job of the aggressors to tackle them.
In other words give the classes survival tools and make it their responsibility to use them. And yes you will die quickly sometimes, and yes opponents will quickly get the upper hand on you at times. Who cares?
You guys imagine these epic tactical engagements with 40 second ttks when what really pans out an overwhelming majority of the time is a long drawn out snooze fest.
dont you think what you described here needs bigger TTK to happen? Coz you talk about small ttk, but then you will just see - Mage chilled target and used 1 lighting skill, then ranger used 1 skill and the target is dead.
Idk why you are so hung on cooldowns and rotations,
If healers will always die first, in 10 seconds, lots of folks might decide not to play healer after all.
Healers are quite necessary for raids and strong PVE groups to be successful.
If very few people decide to play healers, then the 10 sec TTK has the potential to make things...difficult.
I might be an outlier, but I can say that the precise thing you said here won't bother me. If I actually take anything more than 4 seconds to die, when focused, and have some agency in making the enemy formation have to adapt while they are doing it, I won't feel much less inclined to play Cleric.
The Cleric kit, as of last showcase, would be barely enough to do this (if not for long-duration, long-range Sleep, and Ranger Snipe, basically).
In a group situation I'd expect Wings of Salvation to live up to its name and do something there, especially if the game goes with the 'everyone basically gets a CC break' design.
If healers will always die first, in 10 seconds, lots of folks might decide not to play healer after all.
Healers are quite necessary for raids and strong PVE groups to be successful.
If very few people decide to play healers, then the 10 sec TTK has the potential to make things...difficult.
to me its most important that my teammates know what they are doing and also don't overextend. its so frustrating to heal people who start fighting outside healing range. the whole group is at one spot then that one guy decides to wander off to do a 1v1.
dying fast is part of being a healer, so id need to position myself correctly. but I get your point, lots of people might not want to heal in PVP because of what you just said.
If healers will always die first, in 10 seconds, lots of folks might decide not to play healer after all.
Healers are quite necessary for raids and strong PVE groups to be successful.
If very few people decide to play healers, then the 10 sec TTK has the potential to make things...difficult.
Its hard to kill healers in a lot of games. As long as they have the tools they need and react well then it's fine. This is something that has been around for decades at this point.
On the reverse of that point, if you can't take out the healer with an initial alpha, then you could be in trouble. You spent a lot of cooldowns for nothing.
one way is to grant temporal immunities or large defensives to allow the fighter to soak the damage and survive it healthy
And let tanks force you to target them, thereby extending the life of the glass cannons.
Let mages and rangers disengage and make it the job of the aggressors to tackle them.
In other words give the classes survival tools and make it their responsibility to use them. And yes you will die quickly sometimes, and yes opponents will quickly get the upper hand on you at times. Who cares?
You guys imagine these epic tactical engagements with 40 second ttks when what really pans out an overwhelming majority of the time is a long drawn out snooze fest.
Exactly!
Ideally, most combat will not be about "solo" rotations.
We should have time to assess what our groupmates are doing during the battle and determine how we can best synergize our abilities.
Our Mage just hit a Chilled target with Frostbolt - which means my Ranger can try to stack that CC with a Nature-based Root - which gives the Spellsword time to position for an Ice-Augmented Leap Strike.
Rather than just having the Mage mash their "rotations" as quickly as the Cooldowns will allow.
dont you think what you described here needs bigger TTK to happen? Coz you talk about small ttk, but then you will just see - Mage chilled target and used 1 lighting skill, then ranger used 1 skill and the target is dead.
Idk why you are so hung on cooldowns and rotations,
Group oriented combat means the 1v1 ttk has to be bigger, so you dont get oneshoted in group fights.
Imagine being fighter and has to lead a charge to the enemy healer - you use charge and die mid air while flying from dmg. Fun right?
Or maybe your idea of the fighter gameplay is - to stay behind your ranged party members afk for 80% of the fight, and then take the right moment to engage on someone?
target gets chilled, his cleric or bard dispels it
anyway I agree people shouldn't get 1 shotted in party play (8v8) but larger groups should be able to 1 shot a person if they all click him at the same time and fire.
If healers will always die first, in 10 seconds, lots of folks might decide not to play healer after all.
Healers are quite necessary for raids and strong PVE groups to be successful.
If very few people decide to play healers, then the 10 sec TTK has the potential to make things...difficult.
Steven referenced of class kits having higher survival times two he mentioned is cleric and tank. If clerics are dying instantly than we are talking about below the TTk that steven had mentioned.
"10-15 seconds, upwards of 30 seconds depending on the archetype"
Legit feel people are yelling and actually talking about a lower ttk (than he has stated) because he didn't state it was a flat 30+ plus. To try to use an extreme shock situation to convince people. IE You die instantly unless it is above 30 sec ttk and doesn't say context.
So if a healer is being healed they are not dying instantly and will be able to do things. Like in all games yes healers will be targeted but you also have your won team as well. Their team also needs to protect their own healer / healers.
Long story short we shouldn't be suddenly apply the TTK at the lowest value (10) to the highest value class being cleric (20+).
And what is to say about a cleric with high defensive skills and such + skill ceiling.
Is it certain that in group vs group PvP, all groups have same size?
A small TTK gives some chance to a small group to survive against a larger group. Only the initial attack will be a surprise but after that the two groups might have equal numbers and the outcome will depend on group composition and skill.
So it is ok to have some advantage when you try to use stealth and attack first. The obvious example was the caravan but can also be in a dungeon, if you have a small group and you notice a larger one approaching from behind.
If healers will always die first, in 10 seconds, lots of folks might decide not to play healer after all.
Healers are quite necessary for raids and strong PVE groups to be successful.
If very few people decide to play healers, then the 10 sec TTK has the potential to make things...difficult.
If healers are quite necessary, then their numbers will be higher to compensate that some will be eliminated by potential surprise attacks.
Or groups will be extra careful when they are short on healers.
I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example.
I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP):
"6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate.
Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now."
Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it?
- TTK caravans before they reach the next node.
- low TTK -> higher pressure to group
I would rather see slower caravans. Easy fix.
People have only a few hours time to play during evening. Until all guild members are online, until they gather at the same node... they should not fall asleep before the caravan arrives at destination.
Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it?
- TTK caravans before they reach the next node.
- low TTK -> higher pressure to group
I would rather see slower caravans. Easy fix.
People have only a few hours time to play during evening. Until all guild members are online, until they gather at the same node... they should not fall asleep before the caravan arrives at destination.
Same logic to short TTKs too? Don't want people to fall asleep? I am not advocating for extremes, but logical middle grounds. Increase the TTK. Slightly slow the caravan (if needed). The depth of gameplay will be better for it.
According to steven the TTK will be 10-15 seconds , are you guys ready to have fun getting 1 shot all the time , gonna be fun for a lot of the people who loved the game having a 30 sec-1m TTK
15 T(ime) T(o) K(ill) ?
Doesn't sound short to me. 6 Seconds and below are short. This is manageable, is it not ? o_Ô
According to steven the TTK will be 10-15 seconds , are you guys ready to have fun getting 1 shot all the time , gonna be fun for a lot of the people who loved the game having a 30 sec-1m TTK
15 T(ime) T(o) K(ill) ?
Doesn't sound short to me. 6 Seconds and below are short. This is manageable, is it not ? o_Ô
That depends on the way you choose to do the math.
But either way, at least one post has given some details why certain community members would want a long one.
This thread is, so far, mostly people disagreeing on how we should 'do the math'. Does a potential 15 second solo TTK mean that TTK when focused down by an enemy group is less than (let's use your number) 6 seconds, or will the combat provide ways to keep that TTK up?
Some people/game styles also can't achieve actual synergies in under 10 seconds.
Comments
getting globaled in 3v3 was stupid =_=
dont you think what you described here needs bigger TTK to happen? Coz you talk about small ttk, but then you will just see - Mage chilled target and used 1 lighting skill, then ranger used 1 skill and the target is dead.
Idk why you are so hung on cooldowns and rotations,
Group oriented combat means the 1v1 ttk has to be bigger, so you dont get oneshoted in group fights.
Imagine being fighter and has to lead a charge to the enemy healer - you use charge and die mid air while flying from dmg. Fun right?
Or maybe your idea of the fighter gameplay is - to stay behind your ranged party members afk for 80% of the fight, and then take the right moment to engage on someone?
― Plato
And let tanks force you to target them, thereby extending the life of the glass cannons.
Let mages and rangers disengage and make it the job of the aggressors to tackle them.
In other words give the classes survival tools and make it their responsibility to use them. And yes you will die quickly sometimes, and yes opponents will quickly get the upper hand on you at times. Who cares?
You guys imagine these epic tactical engagements with 40 second ttks when what really pans out an overwhelming majority of the time is a long drawn out snooze fest.
Not sure what that means
Can i one shot a mage from stealth ?
Very little
If healers will always die first, in 10 seconds, lots of folks might decide not to play healer after all.
Healers are quite necessary for raids and strong PVE groups to be successful.
If very few people decide to play healers, then the 10 sec TTK has the potential to make things...difficult.
I might be an outlier, but I can say that the precise thing you said here won't bother me. If I actually take anything more than 4 seconds to die, when focused, and have some agency in making the enemy formation have to adapt while they are doing it, I won't feel much less inclined to play Cleric.
The Cleric kit, as of last showcase, would be barely enough to do this (if not for long-duration, long-range Sleep, and Ranger Snipe, basically).
In a group situation I'd expect Wings of Salvation to live up to its name and do something there, especially if the game goes with the 'everyone basically gets a CC break' design.
The question is, how much of an outlier am I?
to me its most important that my teammates know what they are doing and also don't overextend. its so frustrating to heal people who start fighting outside healing range. the whole group is at one spot then that one guy decides to wander off to do a 1v1.
dying fast is part of being a healer, so id need to position myself correctly. but I get your point, lots of people might not want to heal in PVP because of what you just said.
Its hard to kill healers in a lot of games. As long as they have the tools they need and react well then it's fine. This is something that has been around for decades at this point.
On the reverse of that point, if you can't take out the healer with an initial alpha, then you could be in trouble. You spent a lot of cooldowns for nothing.
i think its a troll account
target gets chilled, his cleric or bard dispels it
anyway I agree people shouldn't get 1 shotted in party play (8v8) but larger groups should be able to 1 shot a person if they all click him at the same time and fire.
Steven referenced of class kits having higher survival times two he mentioned is cleric and tank. If clerics are dying instantly than we are talking about below the TTk that steven had mentioned.
"10-15 seconds, upwards of 30 seconds depending on the archetype"
Legit feel people are yelling and actually talking about a lower ttk (than he has stated) because he didn't state it was a flat 30+ plus. To try to use an extreme shock situation to convince people. IE You die instantly unless it is above 30 sec ttk and doesn't say context.
So if a healer is being healed they are not dying instantly and will be able to do things. Like in all games yes healers will be targeted but you also have your won team as well. Their team also needs to protect their own healer / healers.
Long story short we shouldn't be suddenly apply the TTK at the lowest value (10) to the highest value class being cleric (20+).
And what is to say about a cleric with high defensive skills and such + skill ceiling.
A small TTK gives some chance to a small group to survive against a larger group. Only the initial attack will be a surprise but after that the two groups might have equal numbers and the outcome will depend on group composition and skill.
So it is ok to have some advantage when you try to use stealth and attack first. The obvious example was the caravan but can also be in a dungeon, if you have a small group and you notice a larger one approaching from behind.
If healers are quite necessary, then their numbers will be higher to compensate that some will be eliminated by potential surprise attacks.
Or groups will be extra careful when they are short on healers.
I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP):
"6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate.
Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now."
- low TTK -> higher pressure to group
No offense but you spam the forums with very low value posts.
I would rather see slower caravans. Easy fix.
People have only a few hours time to play during evening. Until all guild members are online, until they gather at the same node... they should not fall asleep before the caravan arrives at destination.
Same logic to short TTKs too? Don't want people to fall asleep? I am not advocating for extremes, but logical middle grounds. Increase the TTK. Slightly slow the caravan (if needed). The depth of gameplay will be better for it.
15 T(ime) T(o) K(ill) ?
Doesn't sound short to me. 6 Seconds and below are short. This is manageable, is it not ? o_Ô
That depends on the way you choose to do the math.
But either way, at least one post has given some details why certain community members would want a long one.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/59292/reasons-to-have-high-ttk
This thread is, so far, mostly people disagreeing on how we should 'do the math'. Does a potential 15 second solo TTK mean that TTK when focused down by an enemy group is less than (let's use your number) 6 seconds, or will the combat provide ways to keep that TTK up?
Some people/game styles also can't achieve actual synergies in under 10 seconds.