10-15 SECONDS TTK

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Depraved

Individuated Soul wrote: »

I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example.

I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP):

"6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate.

Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now."

see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun.

i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Depraved

Evre1lovechat wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Individuated Soul wrote: »

I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example.

I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP):

"6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate.

Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now."

see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun.

i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players.

Make some sense

no u.
post pvp or don't reply xdd

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Azherae

Depraved wrote: »

Individuated Soul wrote: »

I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example.

I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP):

"6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate.

Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now."

see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun.

i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players.

Intrepid, I can write you multiple essays on why you cannot have...

I believe the meme is...

"A 6s mob TTK?! In THIS economy?!"

But Depraved is technically right, in that, if you don't actually care about your economy other than as a reason for people to bash each other's faces in, you can make mob TTK whatever you want. PvP TTK though, doesn't even have an economy part, if it truly 'feels better', good.

I'll hope it feels good for Rogue and Summoner too.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Individuated Soul

Azherae wrote: »

Aszkalon wrote: »

GreatPhilisopher wrote: »

According to steven the TTK will be 10-15 seconds , are you guys ready to have fun getting 1 shot all the time , gonna be fun for a lot of the people who loved the game having a 30 sec-1m TTK

15 T(ime) T(o) K(ill) ?

Doesn't sound short to me. 6 Seconds and below are short. This is manageable, is it not ? o_Ô

That depends on the way you choose to do the math.

But either way, at least one post has given some details why certain community members would want a long one.

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/59292/reasons-to-have-high-ttk

This thread is, so far, mostly people disagreeing on how we should 'do the math'. Does a potential 15 second solo TTK mean that TTK when focused down by an enemy group is less than (let's use your number) 6 seconds, or will the combat provide ways to keep that TTK up?

Some people/game styles also can't achieve actual synergies in under 10 seconds.

You do realize the 10-15 TTK given is based on both parties having equal item levels. Disparity will only exacerbate the issue - i.e. shorter TTK values going below 10.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Mag7spy

Evre1lovechat wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Individuated Soul wrote: »

I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example.

I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP):

"6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate.

Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now."

see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun.

i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players.

Make some sense

Stop spamming the forums please with 0 meaning on responses

Depraved

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Individuated Soul wrote: »

I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example.

I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP):

"6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate.

Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now."

see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun.

i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players.

Intrepid, I can write you multiple essays on why you cannot have...

I believe the meme is...

"A 6s mob TTK?! In THIS economy?!"

But Depraved is technically right, in that, if you don't actually care about your economy other than as a reason for people to bash each other's faces in, you can make mob TTK whatever you want. PvP TTK though, doesn't even have an economy part, if it truly 'feels better', good.

I'll hope it feels good for Rogue and Summoner too.

give a reason then. your reasons might be valid but here is the thing...you (and none of us) know the entirety of the game (which I mentioned). you are only looking at 6 seconds mob ttk in isolation.

so unless you have inside info that we don't, looking at ttk in isolation from the outside, players can only say whether its fun or not (plus friction)

Depraved

Evre1lovechat wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Evre1lovechat wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Individuated Soul wrote: »

I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example.

I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP):

"6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate.

Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now."

see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun.

i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players.

Make some sense

no u.
post pvp or don't reply xdd

https://m.youtube.com/results?sp=mAEA&search_query=Epic+pw+relentless+revenge

lol I just said that cuz u were telling ppl the same thing. no one cares about PWE games, where you can swipe and buy the best gems on day 1 and steam roll everybody.

Azherae

Depraved wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Individuated Soul wrote: »

I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example.

I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP):

"6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate.

Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now."

see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun.

i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players.

Intrepid, I can write you multiple essays on why you cannot have...

I believe the meme is...

"A 6s mob TTK?! In THIS economy?!"

But Depraved is technically right, in that, if you don't actually care about your economy other than as a reason for people to bash each other's faces in, you can make mob TTK whatever you want. PvP TTK though, doesn't even have an economy part, if it truly 'feels better', good.

I'll hope it feels good for Rogue and Summoner too.

give a reason then. your reasons might be valid but here is the thing...you (and none of us) know the entirety of the game (which I mentioned). you are only looking at 6 seconds mob ttk in isolation.

so unless you have inside info that we don't, looking at ttk in isolation from the outside, players can only say whether its fun or not (plus friction)

No, as I said, you're right. I only have reasons if I make certain assumptions, and there's no reason to make them.

I'm personally pretty sure that if I work 'backward' from a 6s TTK to most economy outcomes, it will land in a space of gaming I don't personally like, but it could be something you are really happy with, since I obviously count you as someone who sees the economy as 'a reason to bash other people's faces in'.

Azherae

Individuated Soul wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Aszkalon wrote: »

GreatPhilisopher wrote: »

According to steven the TTK will be 10-15 seconds , are you guys ready to have fun getting 1 shot all the time , gonna be fun for a lot of the people who loved the game having a 30 sec-1m TTK

15 T(ime) T(o) K(ill) ?

Doesn't sound short to me. 6 Seconds and below are short. This is manageable, is it not ? o_Ô

That depends on the way you choose to do the math.

But either way, at least one post has given some details why certain community members would want a long one.

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/59292/reasons-to-have-high-ttk

This thread is, so far, mostly people disagreeing on how we should 'do the math'. Does a potential 15 second solo TTK mean that TTK when focused down by an enemy group is less than (let's use your number) 6 seconds, or will the combat provide ways to keep that TTK up?

Some people/game styles also can't achieve actual synergies in under 10 seconds.

You do realize the 10-15 TTK given is based on both parties having equal item levels. Disparity will only exacerbate the issue - i.e. shorter TTK values going below 10.

I do. I believe that's the point, though (I'm not saying I like it, I'm saying that's a design point that I believe Steven likes and thinks will work well).

So for me, my only problems with a 10s equal gear TTK are the Evasion stat, and the fact that this game was advertised to be 'tactical, teamwork, synergy', and I didn't think that meant 'Root, Hamstring, Black Hole while stabbing', I thought it meant something else.

Which is on me, really.

Depraved

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Individuated Soul wrote: »

I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example.

I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP):

"6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate.

Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now."

see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun.

i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players.

Intrepid, I can write you multiple essays on why you cannot have...

I believe the meme is...

"A 6s mob TTK?! In THIS economy?!"

But Depraved is technically right, in that, if you don't actually care about your economy other than as a reason for people to bash each other's faces in, you can make mob TTK whatever you want. PvP TTK though, doesn't even have an economy part, if it truly 'feels better', good.

I'll hope it feels good for Rogue and Summoner too.

give a reason then. your reasons might be valid but here is the thing...you (and none of us) know the entirety of the game (which I mentioned). you are only looking at 6 seconds mob ttk in isolation.

so unless you have inside info that we don't, looking at ttk in isolation from the outside, players can only say whether its fun or not (plus friction)

No, as I said, you're right. I only have reasons if I make certain assumptions, and there's no reason to make them.

I'm personally pretty sure that if I work 'backward' from a 6s TTK to most economy outcomes, it will land in a space of gaming I don't personally like, but it could be something you are really happy with, since I obviously count you as someone who sees the economy as 'a reason to bash other people's faces in'.

I think I know where you are going with this. faster ttk = more mbos dying in the same amount of time = more items pushed to the market in a certain period of time = economic fuckery.

if this is the reason, don't you think there are ways to counter balance that? drop rate, importance of items, etc. maybe the important items will be dropped from elite mobs whose ttk isn't 6 seconds, or maybe they are dropped from mobs that arent abundant...


edit: maybe it will be necessary for the game to have those dropped items pumped fast into the market, depending on how the game is made.

Individuated Soul

Depraved wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Individuated Soul wrote: »

I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example.

I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP):

"6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate.

Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now."

see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun.

i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players.

Intrepid, I can write you multiple essays on why you cannot have...

I believe the meme is...

"A 6s mob TTK?! In THIS economy?!"

But Depraved is technically right, in that, if you don't actually care about your economy other than as a reason for people to bash each other's faces in, you can make mob TTK whatever you want. PvP TTK though, doesn't even have an economy part, if it truly 'feels better', good.

I'll hope it feels good for Rogue and Summoner too.

give a reason then. your reasons might be valid but here is the thing...you (and none of us) know the entirety of the game (which I mentioned). you are only looking at 6 seconds mob ttk in isolation.

so unless you have inside info that we don't, looking at ttk in isolation from the outside, players can only say whether its fun or not (plus friction)

I don't need to taste a cake with poop as ingredient to know that its going to taste like shit. Logic and inference can enlighten many things. Do we technically know how the system will feel? No. Can we deduce how it must operate given shorter TTKs? I think yes. Spawn rates, mob density, feel, impacts to decision tree gameplay, and more all are impacted from TTK design. The conversation/debate is worthwhile, and pretending like this is an arbitrary point doesn't move the needle.

Depraved

Individuated Soul wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Individuated Soul wrote: »

I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example.

I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP):

"6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate.

Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now."

see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun.

i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players.

Intrepid, I can write you multiple essays on why you cannot have...

I believe the meme is...

"A 6s mob TTK?! In THIS economy?!"

But Depraved is technically right, in that, if you don't actually care about your economy other than as a reason for people to bash each other's faces in, you can make mob TTK whatever you want. PvP TTK though, doesn't even have an economy part, if it truly 'feels better', good.

I'll hope it feels good for Rogue and Summoner too.

give a reason then. your reasons might be valid but here is the thing...you (and none of us) know the entirety of the game (which I mentioned). you are only looking at 6 seconds mob ttk in isolation.

so unless you have inside info that we don't, looking at ttk in isolation from the outside, players can only say whether its fun or not (plus friction)

I don't need to taste a cake with poop as ingredient to know that its going to taste like shit. Logic and inference can enlighten many things. Do we technically know how the system will feel? No. Can we deduce how it must operate given shorter TTKs? I think yes. Spawn rates, mob density, feel, impacts to decision tree gameplay, and more all are impacted from TTK design. The conversation/debate is worthwhile, and pretending like this is an arbitrary point doesn't move the needle.

I've met some freaks out there who eat poop
anyways you arent getting it (even though you kind of mentioned it). its a personal feelings thing.

for example, I like short ttk on mobs (most mobs, not talking about special mobs). to me, 2 seconds ttk on mobs is the most fun. it makes me go to the limit, I have to think about the path I take to kill all the mobs in the spot, try to drive other players out of the area by killing stuff, optimize how I kill mobs, etc then I get to spend more time fighting mobs than resting. but my first couple of mmorpg had low ttk on mobs (if u have gear) so to me, that's what's fun.

maybe someone from eq or something will enjoy a longer ttk, 30-60 seconds, then rest. i find that boring. fight 1 min then sit for 3 minutes.

but that's exactly my point, its based on personal preference and that preference is based on previous games players have played in the past. from the players perspective and without having more info about the game, pretty much the only argument for ttk wether long or short is "ewww yucky". to me long ttk Is eww yucky, and for someone else a short ttk is eww yucky.

Individuated Soul

Depraved wrote: »

Individuated Soul wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Individuated Soul wrote: »

I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example.

I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP):

"6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate.

Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now."

see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun.

i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players.

Intrepid, I can write you multiple essays on why you cannot have...

I believe the meme is...

"A 6s mob TTK?! In THIS economy?!"

But Depraved is technically right, in that, if you don't actually care about your economy other than as a reason for people to bash each other's faces in, you can make mob TTK whatever you want. PvP TTK though, doesn't even have an economy part, if it truly 'feels better', good.

I'll hope it feels good for Rogue and Summoner too.

give a reason then. your reasons might be valid but here is the thing...you (and none of us) know the entirety of the game (which I mentioned). you are only looking at 6 seconds mob ttk in isolation.

so unless you have inside info that we don't, looking at ttk in isolation from the outside, players can only say whether its fun or not (plus friction)

I don't need to taste a cake with poop as ingredient to know that its going to taste like shit. Logic and inference can enlighten many things. Do we technically know how the system will feel? No. Can we deduce how it must operate given shorter TTKs? I think yes. Spawn rates, mob density, feel, impacts to decision tree gameplay, and more all are impacted from TTK design. The conversation/debate is worthwhile, and pretending like this is an arbitrary point doesn't move the needle.

I've met some freaks out there who eat poop
anyways you arent getting it (even though you kind of mentioned it). its a personal feelings thing.

for example, I like short ttk on mobs (most mobs, not talking about special mobs). to me, 2 seconds ttk on mobs is the most fun. it makes me go to the limit, I have to think about the path I take to kill all the mobs in the spot, try to drive other players out of the area by killing stuff, optimize how I kill mobs, etc then I get to spend more time fighting mobs than resting. but my first couple of mmorpg had low ttk on mobs (if u have gear) so to me, that's what's fun.

maybe someone from eq or something will enjoy a longer ttk, 30-60 seconds, then rest. i find that boring. fight 1 min then sit for 3 minutes.

but that's exactly my point, its based on personal preference and that preference is based on previous games players have played in the past. from the players perspective and without having more info about the game, pretty much the only argument for ttk wether long or short is "ewww yucky". to me long ttk Is eww yucky, and for someone else a short ttk is eww yucky.

I understand your preference, but reducing it to either long or short is a false dilemma fallacy. I can agree that 60 seconds is too long, and advocate that 10-15 is too short. Its about finding that sweet spot, and I believe Steven's vision (on this issue) isn't it.

Depraved

Individuated Soul wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Individuated Soul wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Individuated Soul wrote: »

I think this is one issue where Steven is wrong. I am fully bought in to the game, but I believe this topic should not die, and the discussion should continue until the rational and vision is clarified to the masses. Saying your preference is one thing, but what design philosophy is driving it? Most if not all systems are explained to sufficient depth, but this one continues to be glossed over. From the 6 second PvE TTK to now the 10-15 PvP TTK. This low TTK trivializes other designs in the game, with the combatant decision tree being one example.

I've said it previously, regarding the PvE TTK (still worth mentioning despite the recent AMA only referring to PvP):

"6 seconds seems very low and the number gives me arcade/ARPG vibes. The weight of mob interaction will probably be greatly lessoned, cheapening the immersion and feel of the world. A slower more thoughtful and methodic interaction with the world is my preference and a higher TTK lends itself to that goal. An average 6s kill would suggest that mobs are more of an afterthought, or of lower value, to the PvP systems in the game. Perhaps this is a sign of their combat design limitations and a lower TTK is a way to compensate.

Keep numbers in check. Damage and life should be controlled so that balance is practical and we don't have to devolve in to 6 second TTKs. Keep the power creep out now."

see there isn't any reason why mobs ttk should be 6 seconds, or 2 seconds, or 30 seconds. why should it be 30 seconds over 6? that doesn't compromise design pillars. and tbh shorter ttk for mobs creates more friction between players. the reason they said they changed it down to 6 was because it felt better aka more fun.

i get it, some special, stronger mobs should have a higher ttk, maybe a good 20-30 or even 60 secs. but not every single mob. that stops being fun. i can see how some people from some games might find it more fun to spend 30 secs on each mob, but that's it, personal feelings. no reasons (not at least without knowing everything else about the game). however, you can still say that a shorter ttk offers more friction between players.

Intrepid, I can write you multiple essays on why you cannot have...

I believe the meme is...

"A 6s mob TTK?! In THIS economy?!"

But Depraved is technically right, in that, if you don't actually care about your economy other than as a reason for people to bash each other's faces in, you can make mob TTK whatever you want. PvP TTK though, doesn't even have an economy part, if it truly 'feels better', good.

I'll hope it feels good for Rogue and Summoner too.

give a reason then. your reasons might be valid but here is the thing...you (and none of us) know the entirety of the game (which I mentioned). you are only looking at 6 seconds mob ttk in isolation.

so unless you have inside info that we don't, looking at ttk in isolation from the outside, players can only say whether its fun or not (plus friction)

I don't need to taste a cake with poop as ingredient to know that its going to taste like shit. Logic and inference can enlighten many things. Do we technically know how the system will feel? No. Can we deduce how it must operate given shorter TTKs? I think yes. Spawn rates, mob density, feel, impacts to decision tree gameplay, and more all are impacted from TTK design. The conversation/debate is worthwhile, and pretending like this is an arbitrary point doesn't move the needle.

I've met some freaks out there who eat poop
anyways you arent getting it (even though you kind of mentioned it). its a personal feelings thing.

for example, I like short ttk on mobs (most mobs, not talking about special mobs). to me, 2 seconds ttk on mobs is the most fun. it makes me go to the limit, I have to think about the path I take to kill all the mobs in the spot, try to drive other players out of the area by killing stuff, optimize how I kill mobs, etc then I get to spend more time fighting mobs than resting. but my first couple of mmorpg had low ttk on mobs (if u have gear) so to me, that's what's fun.

maybe someone from eq or something will enjoy a longer ttk, 30-60 seconds, then rest. i find that boring. fight 1 min then sit for 3 minutes.

but that's exactly my point, its based on personal preference and that preference is based on previous games players have played in the past. from the players perspective and without having more info about the game, pretty much the only argument for ttk wether long or short is "ewww yucky". to me long ttk Is eww yucky, and for someone else a short ttk is eww yucky.

I understand your preference, but reducing it to either long or short is a false dilemma fallacy. I can agree that 60 seconds is too long, and advocate that 10-15 is too short. Its about finding that sweet spot, and I believe Steven's vision (on this issue) isn't it.

sure. i agree its about finding that sweet spot. but why do you believe 6 seconds isn't? what information do you have that we don't?

its based on personal preference, that's what I'm saying. none of us have all the info about the game. for you, the sweet spot might be 10 seconds, for me, it might be 30 seconds. for someone who played eq, it might be 60 seconds. but we haven't actually played the game... right now its just based on "eww yucky".

hell id probably like the 6 seconds ttk once I get to play. i personally prefer 2seconds.

Mag7spy

How are we back on ttk for mobs again. Normal weak mobs dying in 6 seconds is normal be it new mmorpg or old ones. (Yes there is the super old ones with tanky mobs.) There is 0 mention about elite mobs or harder type mobs meant to be dying in 6 seconds.

Swtor is a older mmorpg and you can see mobs dying quickly within 6 seconds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f568csT6pC0

At this point im guessing people are just complaining to complain or they are from Patheon where it takes like 20 secs to kill a rat.

Diamaht

Mag7spy wrote: »

How are we back on ttk for mobs again. Normal weak mobs dying in 6 seconds is normal be it new mmorpg or old ones. (Yes there is the super old ones with tanky mobs.) There is 0 mention about elite mobs or harder type mobs meant to be dying in 6 seconds.

Swtor is a older mmorpg and you can see mobs dying quickly within 6 seconds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f568csT6pC0

At this point im guessing people are just complaining to complain or they are from Patheon where it takes like 20 secs to kill a rat.

Yeah, we are jumping around a bit. We'll just have to see how it all feels in a few months.

Mag7spy

Diamaht wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

How are we back on ttk for mobs again. Normal weak mobs dying in 6 seconds is normal be it new mmorpg or old ones. (Yes there is the super old ones with tanky mobs.) There is 0 mention about elite mobs or harder type mobs meant to be dying in 6 seconds.

Swtor is a older mmorpg and you can see mobs dying quickly within 6 seconds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f568csT6pC0

At this point im guessing people are just complaining to complain or they are from Patheon where it takes like 20 secs to kill a rat.

Yeah, we are jumping around a bit. We'll just have to see how it all feels in a few months.

I feel the main point is people don't' want a KR grinding game where u run around blowing everything up with aoes with 1-2 hits. And now they are some how exaggerating it like a 6 sec ttk for an average mob so akin to that. Forgetting in mmorpgs (not really EQ as far as i remember) that this is pretty standard.

I also feel people are getting things mixed up taking the 6 sec ttk for a average mob is suddenly an elite dungeon mob. As those were the super tank mobs in mmorpgs that took awhile to kill as a group.

Im going to post another video just to drive this home because people a legit getting nostalgia mixed up right now heavy. Lvl 9 in rift someone is killing mobs in under 6 seconds. A game where u have cast times and all and its slower pace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=037DScA-iws

City of heroes SUPER old game, dead slow combat. People are killing average mobs in 6 seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PFIooOZzbE

Can we stop pretending average kill time for a average mob is 30+ second now based on older mmorpgs?

Saabynator

Honestly, 15 secs is a loooong time, when fightijng. If you factor in people kiting, stunning, rooting etc. the fight will probably last alot longer, like 40 secs. In game PvP time, thats a decently long time to kill. If a rogue, mage, and fighter, cant kill a player in like 3-4 secs, with combined "big damage" moves, noone will ever feel powerful. Three people on you, your suppose to go down quick, or see them coming and maybe get away using cunning and abilities.

GrilledCheeseMojito

I don't think the context is that necessary. PvP video games have been around since 1991, and 15 second rounds of Street Fighter are deeply unsatisfying. Going even lower than that for, as Steven stated, even gear levels is even worse.

Maybe take a moment to look into games about fighting one another, and use them as a measuring stick for what feels good in terms of engagement. Once you have that, gear scaling and group sizing handles the rest.

Mag7spy

GrilledCheeseMojito wrote: »

I don't think the context is that necessary. PvP video games have been around since 1991, and 15 second rounds of Street Fighter are deeply unsatisfying. Going even lower than that for, as Steven stated, even gear levels is even worse.

Maybe take a moment to look into games about fighting one another, and use them as a measuring stick for what feels good in terms of engagement. Once you have that, gear scaling and group sizing handles the rest.

If i win in 15 secs i feel good because that means i did a big ass combo, I was clean, I was perfect lmao. Unless the person is just bad.

Back to my years old figght game clips https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/mag7spy/video/112737389

Second round was won in 12 seconds and was extremely satisfying

Dygz

RPGs should not have the same TTK as Street Fighter.

Mag7spy

Dygz wrote: »

RPGs should not have the same TTK as Street Fighter.

Why, a fighting match can last for over 60 seconds or be 15-20 seconds?

Individuated Soul

Mag7spy wrote: »

GrilledCheeseMojito wrote: »

I don't think the context is that necessary. PvP video games have been around since 1991, and 15 second rounds of Street Fighter are deeply unsatisfying. Going even lower than that for, as Steven stated, even gear levels is even worse.

Maybe take a moment to look into games about fighting one another, and use them as a measuring stick for what feels good in terms of engagement. Once you have that, gear scaling and group sizing handles the rest.

If i win in 15 secs i feel good because that means i did a big ass combo, I was clean, I was perfect lmao. Unless the person is just bad.

Back to my years old figght game clips https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/mag7spy/video/112737389

Second round was won in 12 seconds and was extremely satisfying

15 seconds is more tolerable from an average TTK, similar items core. 10 seconds average is not IMO as again you will get sub 10s kills from item disparity. It's akin to twinking brackets in Classic WoW. Stomping people with low TTK feels good, but there isn't much depth to it.

Make it 15 - 20 average and I think both thought camps will be happy.

Mag7spy

Individuated Soul wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

GrilledCheeseMojito wrote: »

I don't think the context is that necessary. PvP video games have been around since 1991, and 15 second rounds of Street Fighter are deeply unsatisfying. Going even lower than that for, as Steven stated, even gear levels is even worse.

Maybe take a moment to look into games about fighting one another, and use them as a measuring stick for what feels good in terms of engagement. Once you have that, gear scaling and group sizing handles the rest.

If i win in 15 secs i feel good because that means i did a big ass combo, I was clean, I was perfect lmao. Unless the person is just bad.

Back to my years old figght game clips https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/mag7spy/video/112737389

Second round was won in 12 seconds and was extremely satisfying

15 seconds is more tolerable from an average TTK, similar items core. 10 seconds average is not IMO as again you will get sub 10s kills from item disparity. It's akin to twinking brackets in Classic WoW. Stomping people with low TTK feels good, but there isn't much depth to it.

Make it 15 - 20 average and I think both thought camps will be happy.

To me this sounds like a skill issue. IF you have no defensive ability to dodge / avoid damage. Stand still and take all hits without retaliating properly. You should be dying quickly until you can show me you can learn to pvp.

There is no issue if your skill set is that bad. If you have skill you aren't going to die instantly lol.