And even if we then considered 'well it would make 1v1 long and drawn out', if your 1v1 arena is 80% 'waiting for the next round to start' and 20% 'actual fighting, is this better? Who exactly is 'getting bored' watching a longer 1v1 Arena duel, that bothered to watch in the first place?
Also, in L2 the funnest arena fights to watch were the ones that went on for 1-2 minutes, instead of one-sided oneshots.
Different strats, different counter plays, different range of knowledge of your opponent's style of play, different class matchups - all played a huge roll exactly because you couldn't just wipe your enemy in a few abilities.
It's really interesting to see people complain about "boring long fights". I really feel like it simply comes from a place of shitty combat design, rather than long ttk.
This was one of the most OP classes in the game at the time and this is the top player of that class (in top OEd gear and with great skill), against people of several different progress lvls (only a few near to the MC), and even then ttk is somewhere around 6-7s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ9QDoi61hY
And this was during the times when mages/archers could 1-2crit you in a party situation, let alone any assist-kills by a party. If Ashes has even deeper/better combat - I'd definitely want an at least slightly longer ttk.
- The defenders need to scout their route for sure. Not the entire planet 😎
And attackers would just hide a bit further away from the path, while having either an alt or a friend tracking the caravan's movements.
What I'm trying to say is that the jump shown in the stream wasn't all that difficult to set up and would've been somewhat difficult to repel, especially considering that proper attackers wouldn't be as conspicuous as Steven's group was.
The issue is with how repetitive things get. You go through your rotation, then go through it again. It's such a long time scale that it's always the same. It gets lame after a while and you get tired of your class far sooner.
With shorter 1v1 engagements you have to make choices. If its a group fight to have to decide what to use on what enemy.
To me this just sounds like a bad combat design. Either a low amount of abilities and counters to them or a low variety of general counterplay available to players at any given time.
To me this just sounds like a bad combat design. Either a low amount of abilities and counters to them or a low variety of general counterplay available to players at any given time.
The problem, no matter the design, is endless repetition. If you have a 30 second full rotation, thats what you will do each time. It would actually hurt you to do anything different.
With a shorter engagement you have to make decisions about what to use and how hard to push on any specific target.
With engagements of a long enough time scale, nothing ever changes and no decisions need to be made.
The problem, no matter the design, is endless repetition. If you have a 30 second full rotation, thats what you will do each time. It would actually hurt you to do anything different.
With a shorter engagement you have to make decisions about what to use and how hard to push on any specific target.
With engagements of a long enough time scale, nothing ever changes and no decisions need to be made.
Again, you just described a bad combat design I dunno what else I can say, except for "I hope we don't get that kind of shit in Ashes".
If we do - yes, you will be correct and it'll all be dumb boring rotations.
Personally gut feel right now is that I'm quite happy with the ballpark TTKs Steven gave us.
As a couple people have said though, this whole discussion does hinge on how we measure it.
Someone (?) said multiple attackers combining to bring you down in 1sec = 1sec TTK which is obviously ludicrous.
TTK is generally assuming 1v1, then adjusted by all sorts of variables.
Of course every class will have a variety of ways to mitigate/heal/escape/cc etc, and if you don't use them (or are completely outskilled) then yes I think dying in 10-15 secs Vs a top dmg dealing class is reasonable.
Aside, I do however agree the 6sec mob TTK seems too low.
The problem, no matter the design, is endless repetition. If you have a 30 second full rotation, thats what you will do each time. It would actually hurt you to do anything different.
With a shorter engagement you have to make decisions about what to use and how hard to push on any specific target.
With engagements of a long enough time scale, nothing ever changes and no decisions need to be made.
Again, you just described a bad combat design I dunno what else I can say, except for "I hope we don't get that kind of shit in Ashes".
If we do - yes, you will be correct and it'll all be dumb boring rotations.
It felt that way in all of the MMOs I've played that had super long engagements. When you have time to hit all of the buttons, there is not much left to do but hit them all again. You will eventually figure out the most effective order.
My guess is, if things are to short at 10 to 15, it will get upped to 15 to 20.
The problem, no matter the design, is endless repetition. If you have a 30 second full rotation, thats what you will do each time. It would actually hurt you to do anything different.
With a shorter engagement you have to make decisions about what to use and how hard to push on any specific target.
With engagements of a long enough time scale, nothing ever changes and no decisions need to be made.
Again, you just described a bad combat design I dunno what else I can say, except for "I hope we don't get that kind of shit in Ashes".
If we do - yes, you will be correct and it'll all be dumb boring rotations.
It's a specific style thing, I think MMO players who don't also play fighters just don't have the concepts (related to player preferences) thrown at them as quickly.
You should probably get off the copium and start looking for a diff game though, NiKr. We hear the word 'rotation' used often enough now that I feel that we'd be completely foolish to assume we were getting what you're talking about.
A shorter TTK is just another strong datapoint for the Modern design type.
A shorter TTK is just another strong datapoint for the Modern design type.
Yeah, it's quite likely at this point.
But as that video shows, I'm already used to shorter ttk, so as long as core designs don't change (mainly being pvp, nodes, wars) - Ashes will still be for me. My standards are super low, even if my desires and preferences are much higher.
If Ashes ends up being completely not my thing - I'll still have Mihoyo games and all the other hundreds of games in my Steam account. I'll simply know for sure that mmos are no longer for me.
The problem, no matter the design, is endless repetition. If you have a 30 second full rotation, thats what you will do each time. It would actually hurt you to do anything different.
With a shorter engagement you have to make decisions about what to use and how hard to push on any specific target.
With engagements of a long enough time scale, nothing ever changes and no decisions need to be made.
Again, you just described a bad combat design I dunno what else I can say, except for "I hope we don't get that kind of shit in Ashes".
If we do - yes, you will be correct and it'll all be dumb boring rotations.
It's a specific style thing, I think MMO players who don't also play fighters just don't have the concepts (related to player preferences) thrown at them as quickly.
You should probably get off the copium and start looking for a diff game though, NiKr. We hear the word 'rotation' used often enough now that I feel that we'd be completely foolish to assume we were getting what you're talking about.
A shorter TTK is just another strong datapoint for the Modern design type.
Not sure there’s enough time for a rotation.
This raises another potential concern: that a shorter overall TTK means no need for set up skills, building attacks, and synergies. It could be an indicator that combat is not going to be very layered at all, but more of the slashy-slashy-stab-sparkle we’ve seen in 2023 projects.
Still thinking this will be worked out in A2, but it’s a concern nonetheless.
The problem, no matter the design, is endless repetition. If you have a 30 second full rotation, thats what you will do each time. It would actually hurt you to do anything different.
With a shorter engagement you have to make decisions about what to use and how hard to push on any specific target.
With engagements of a long enough time scale, nothing ever changes and no decisions need to be made.
Again, you just described a bad combat design I dunno what else I can say, except for "I hope we don't get that kind of shit in Ashes".
If we do - yes, you will be correct and it'll all be dumb boring rotations.
It's a specific style thing, I think MMO players who don't also play fighters just don't have the concepts (related to player preferences) thrown at them as quickly.
You should probably get off the copium and start looking for a diff game though, NiKr. We hear the word 'rotation' used often enough now that I feel that we'd be completely foolish to assume we were getting what you're talking about.
A shorter TTK is just another strong datapoint for the Modern design type.
Not sure there’s enough time for a rotation.
This raises another potential concern: that a shorter overall TTK means no need for set up skills, building attacks, and synergies. It could be an indicator that combat is not going to be very layered at all, but more of the slashy-slashy-stab-sparkle we’ve seen in 2023 projects.
Still thinking this will be worked out in A2, but it’s a concern nonetheless.
It depends on your perception/definition of it, which is a debate Fighting Game players have been having for 20 years.
Glad to see the MMO space 'catching up to the same issue' with its latest attempts at making competitive play feel good... /s
But I wouldn't say it doesn't require them, it might require them too much. The precision and awareness required for doing a lot of team-combo stuff people do now is quite high, but technically, a high precision skill ceiling with really tight timing isn't a non-option, design wise.
A shorter TTK is just another strong datapoint for the Modern design type.
Yeah, it's quite likely at this point.
But as that video shows, I'm already used to shorter ttk, so as long as core designs don't change (mainly being pvp, nodes, wars) - Ashes will still be for me. My standards are super low, even if my desires and preferences are much higher.
If Ashes ends up being completely not my thing - I'll still have Mihoyo games and all the other hundreds of games in my Steam account. I'll simply know for sure that mmos are no longer for me.
I'm sure it will still be your thing and you will adapt, just expect there are going to be some elements of modern in the combat. Though the design will have old school elements, item drops, PvP, less fast travel, etc.
I'm sure it will still be your thing and you will adapt, just expect there are going to be some elements of modern in the combat. Though the design will have old school elements, item drops, PvP, less fast travel, etc.
I play Genshin and that's pretty much BDO's combat, but with even precise aiming for bigger hits on bows, so it's not like I'm not used to that kind of stuff.
I'd just prefer something deeper and more complex on the skill design part, and imo longer ttk supports that way better. Like, I do not see weapon procs mattering at all, nor synergies, nor combos.
And god forbid the tab part of targeting has a "/target PlayerX" function. That would utterly destroy any ttk design or combat balancing.
I'm sure it will still be your thing and you will adapt, just expect there are going to be some elements of modern in the combat. Though the design will have old school elements, item drops, PvP, less fast travel, etc.
I play Genshin and that's pretty much BDO's combat, but with even precise aiming for bigger hits on bows, so it's not like I'm not used to that kind of stuff.
I'd just prefer something deeper and more complex on the skill design part, and imo longer ttk supports that way better. Like, I do not see weapon procs mattering at all, nor synergies, nor combos.
And god forbid the tab part of targeting has a "/target PlayerX" function. That would utterly destroy any ttk design or combat balancing.
The thing is, you absolutely could get both.
The question is if the niche that enjoys this type of MMO's design also enjoys that type of physical execution requirements.
I really thought the answer to that was 'no' based on things people have said over the years (combined with a few other things said by the people who do like it).
But maybe the whole thing is banking on the silent majority at this point.
I'm sure it will still be your thing and you will adapt, just expect there are going to be some elements of modern in the combat. Though the design will have old school elements, item drops, PvP, less fast travel, etc.
I play Genshin and that's pretty much BDO's combat, but with even precise aiming for bigger hits on bows, so it's not like I'm not used to that kind of stuff.
I'd just prefer something deeper and more complex on the skill design part, and imo longer ttk supports that way better. Like, I do not see weapon procs mattering at all, nor synergies, nor combos.
And god forbid the tab part of targeting has a "/target PlayerX" function. That would utterly destroy any ttk design or combat balancing.
I'm sure everyone is going to matter, though im going based on my vibe on what I've been hearing so far with customization on AoC, and the devs ideas on guild effects.
But we will see how things turn out 6 months from now when we are deep in the alpha 2.
But maybe the whole thing is banking on the silent majority at this point.
Kinda feels like it, yeah. And Intrepid seemingly aims at the younger silent majority, cause I've definitely seen most older players say "tab is the best mmo combat" and so far Ashes has been "making mmos great again" for all those older players.
So maybe this is just yet another contradiction in the design, or maybe I'm just totally mistaken in my assumptions and observations.
But maybe the whole thing is banking on the silent majority at this point.
Kinda feels like it, yeah. And Intrepid seemingly aims at the younger silent majority, cause I've definitely seen most older players say "tab is the best mmo combat" and so far Ashes has been "making mmos great again" for all those older players.
So maybe this is just yet another contradiction in the design, or maybe I'm just totally mistaken in my assumptions and observations.
Tbh I think the TTK argument is skewed by all our fond memories of epic 1v1s where it took a good while to outmanoeuvre an opponent.
But that is down to two people knowing their class well, and using everything at their disposal to mitigate/cc/heal etc. 10sec TTK is absolute base, and doesn't rule these type of fights out at all, IMO.
30s-1m TTK would still be one shot in group pvp you know?
If 30s is a dps vs dps baseline for 1v1 ttk, at even 3s cast time speeds that's 10 equally-powerful abilities to kill your target.
A party physically cannot have 10 dpsers to use their powerful abilities to one-shot a person.
Or are you on Depraved's side of this and are talking about "a damn raid is targeting a single person"? Cause I don't think anyone here denies that possibility.
12 sec ttk means you wont be able to use all your skills, let alone the basic auto attacks that you put so much effort to put skill points into the weapon. To me it makes no sense the fight to be a spam of who uses all his spells first, you need some cooldown management.
Should not need to use all your skills in every fight... or in most fights.
The skills you choose to use should change depending on the specific encounter.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Was SWTOR a solo mmo or did it heavily rely on party gameplay?
Cause my desire for a longer ttk comes directly from Ashes claiming to be a party game. If the ttk is super short even in 1v1 - party gameplay will be utter trash, because it's gonna be way easier to wipe your enemy (or for them to wipe you), and that's not even considering even a slightest advantage in character/build power.
I understand when people dislike long 1v1s (though I still think it's a fault of the combat design, rather than the ttk itself), but I'm gonna be reaaaal curious to watch people die in mere seconds in a group vs group encounter and then complain that they couldn't even get off a single skill of theirs.
Exactly!
Ideally, most combat will not be about "solo" rotations.
We should have time to assess what our groupmates are doing during the battle and determine how we can best synergize our abilities.
Our Mage just hit a Chilled target with Frostbolt - which means my Ranger can try to stack that CC with a Nature-based Root - which gives the Spellsword time to position for an Ice-Augmented Leap Strike.
Rather than just having the Mage mash their "rotations" as quickly as the Cooldowns will allow.
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Different strats, different counter plays, different range of knowledge of your opponent's style of play, different class matchups - all played a huge roll exactly because you couldn't just wipe your enemy in a few abilities.
It's really interesting to see people complain about "boring long fights". I really feel like it simply comes from a place of shitty combat design, rather than long ttk.
This was one of the most OP classes in the game at the time and this is the top player of that class (in top OEd gear and with great skill), against people of several different progress lvls (only a few near to the MC), and even then ttk is somewhere around 6-7s
And this was during the times when mages/archers could 1-2crit you in a party situation, let alone any assist-kills by a party. If Ashes has even deeper/better combat - I'd definitely want an at least slightly longer ttk.
And attackers would just hide a bit further away from the path, while having either an alt or a friend tracking the caravan's movements.
What I'm trying to say is that the jump shown in the stream wasn't all that difficult to set up and would've been somewhat difficult to repel, especially considering that proper attackers wouldn't be as conspicuous as Steven's group was.
To me this just sounds like a bad combat design. Either a low amount of abilities and counters to them or a low variety of general counterplay available to players at any given time.
The problem, no matter the design, is endless repetition. If you have a 30 second full rotation, thats what you will do each time. It would actually hurt you to do anything different.
With a shorter engagement you have to make decisions about what to use and how hard to push on any specific target.
With engagements of a long enough time scale, nothing ever changes and no decisions need to be made.
If we do - yes, you will be correct and it'll all be dumb boring rotations.
As a couple people have said though, this whole discussion does hinge on how we measure it.
Someone (?) said multiple attackers combining to bring you down in 1sec = 1sec TTK which is obviously ludicrous.
TTK is generally assuming 1v1, then adjusted by all sorts of variables.
Of course every class will have a variety of ways to mitigate/heal/escape/cc etc, and if you don't use them (or are completely outskilled) then yes I think dying in 10-15 secs Vs a top dmg dealing class is reasonable.
Aside, I do however agree the 6sec mob TTK seems too low.
It felt that way in all of the MMOs I've played that had super long engagements. When you have time to hit all of the buttons, there is not much left to do but hit them all again. You will eventually figure out the most effective order.
My guess is, if things are to short at 10 to 15, it will get upped to 15 to 20.
It's a specific style thing, I think MMO players who don't also play fighters just don't have the concepts (related to player preferences) thrown at them as quickly.
You should probably get off the copium and start looking for a diff game though, NiKr. We hear the word 'rotation' used often enough now that I feel that we'd be completely foolish to assume we were getting what you're talking about.
A shorter TTK is just another strong datapoint for the Modern design type.
But as that video shows, I'm already used to shorter ttk, so as long as core designs don't change (mainly being pvp, nodes, wars) - Ashes will still be for me. My standards are super low, even if my desires and preferences are much higher.
If Ashes ends up being completely not my thing - I'll still have Mihoyo games and all the other hundreds of games in my Steam account. I'll simply know for sure that mmos are no longer for me.
Not sure there’s enough time for a rotation.
This raises another potential concern: that a shorter overall TTK means no need for set up skills, building attacks, and synergies. It could be an indicator that combat is not going to be very layered at all, but more of the slashy-slashy-stab-sparkle we’ve seen in 2023 projects.
Still thinking this will be worked out in A2, but it’s a concern nonetheless.
It depends on your perception/definition of it, which is a debate Fighting Game players have been having for 20 years.
Glad to see the MMO space 'catching up to the same issue' with its latest attempts at making competitive play feel good... /s
But I wouldn't say it doesn't require them, it might require them too much. The precision and awareness required for doing a lot of team-combo stuff people do now is quite high, but technically, a high precision skill ceiling with really tight timing isn't a non-option, design wise.
I'm sure it will still be your thing and you will adapt, just expect there are going to be some elements of modern in the combat. Though the design will have old school elements, item drops, PvP, less fast travel, etc.
Granted its alpha so its a ever changing beast.
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I'd just prefer something deeper and more complex on the skill design part, and imo longer ttk supports that way better. Like, I do not see weapon procs mattering at all, nor synergies, nor combos.
And god forbid the tab part of targeting has a "/target PlayerX" function. That would utterly destroy any ttk design or combat balancing.
The thing is, you absolutely could get both.
The question is if the niche that enjoys this type of MMO's design also enjoys that type of physical execution requirements.
I really thought the answer to that was 'no' based on things people have said over the years (combined with a few other things said by the people who do like it).
But maybe the whole thing is banking on the silent majority at this point.
I'm sure everyone is going to matter, though im going based on my vibe on what I've been hearing so far with customization on AoC, and the devs ideas on guild effects.
But we will see how things turn out 6 months from now when we are deep in the alpha 2.
So maybe this is just yet another contradiction in the design, or maybe I'm just totally mistaken in my assumptions and observations.
ttk in old school mmorpg was really low in pvp
But that is down to two people knowing their class well, and using everything at their disposal to mitigate/cc/heal etc. 10sec TTK is absolute base, and doesn't rule these type of fights out at all, IMO.
thats why you apply healing reductions
A party physically cannot have 10 dpsers to use their powerful abilities to one-shot a person.
Or are you on Depraved's side of this and are talking about "a damn raid is targeting a single person"? Cause I don't think anyone here denies that possibility.
Again though the 6 sec TTK when soloing mobs does seem a bit quick.
The skills you choose to use should change depending on the specific encounter.
Ideally, most combat will not be about "solo" rotations.
We should have time to assess what our groupmates are doing during the battle and determine how we can best synergize our abilities.
Our Mage just hit a Chilled target with Frostbolt - which means my Ranger can try to stack that CC with a Nature-based Root - which gives the Spellsword time to position for an Ice-Augmented Leap Strike.
Rather than just having the Mage mash their "rotations" as quickly as the Cooldowns will allow.