So you think that having a narrow selection of classes and a even more narrow selection for roles is a good thing?
I am saying that people who take issue with the class system have plenty of other games they can play, because so far there is no real reason for Intrepid to reconsider the current 8x8 class system. The design idea is good and makes sense on paper and as long as the testing of that system doesn't prove the theoretic idea wrong there is nothing that would justify deviating from the current path.
I am making the post because I can see how things will go wrong, baring a minor miracle. I said this in the OP I started thinking that fixing the class system would solve the problem. As I got to about the half way point I realized this game had way larger problems then I thought. And given the devs are human and humans can make mistakes maybe the devs made a mistake and didn't realize it. Because the devs aren't infallible.
There is plenty of reason to read through the post because the post is not a bunch of suggestions, it's a prediction. And when someone predicts something using logic and reason and interdisciplinary practices its a good idea to at least listen to what they have to say. And then if there right you maybe listen more next time and heed the warning.
Just so I understand this right: The entirety of Intrepid, a studio full of veteran MMORPG players themselves with the additional experience of being game designers for years if not decades, ALL overlooked as you said it "way larger problems" in almost all its core systems and you have figured it out despite only having joined something like 2 months ago? With all due respect despite the fact that Intrepid obviously is not perfect and on point with each of its decisions, that sounds to me like you are just quite full of yourself even though nothing indicates that you are either knowledgable about the project or game development.
First there is no reason to assume most people are in guilds given most MMO players are solo, meaning at best your looking at 50% of people being in guilds.
Really?
Where are they?
I often literally go months in an MMORPG without seeing a non-guilded character that is above level 10.
Are you talking about this game?
No, I'm talking about almost any MMORPG.
I almost never see unguilded players out running content. There are a few around town - mostly low level shit-talking alts.
The notion that half of MMORPG players are unguilded is kind of a wild claim, tbh.
We're not creating a solo game, but it doesn't mean that we don't offer gameplay that is solo centric as well: It lives in addition to the social aspect of What MMOs provide; and so part of what we do in order to to give that element of gameplay is we have quest lines that are devoted towards solo players. We have hunting grounds. Obviously one of the benefits of being a solo player is you get to keep everything that drops. You don't have to share loot with a party or with friends; that's one benefit of being a solo player. But it's going to be more difficult to overcome challenges; and those individuals who are up to taking that additional level of of difficulty are going to excel perhaps in their character progression a bit faster than those who are more group-centric. It's going to be a little bit of a roll of the dice there because there are loot tables, there are reward tables that accompany that, but it's important to note that from a content perspective Ashes of Creation is looking to fulfill both that solo-oriented mind in gameplay as well as the group and social experience; and a lot of times those paths diverge: They move apart, they come back together; and that process is going to be seen throughout the leveling in Ashes of Creation where you'll have more opportunities for solo gameplay and some opportunities for group gameplay.[2] – Steven Sharif
I'd suggest wait and see rather than assuming solo players are completely fucked.
In regard to solos learning pvp: Outside of open world, there are plans for 1v1 arenas and dueling.
Can trade for best crafted gear.
A few other options for solos that are dead-set on playing a game that isn't designed for them:
- Join a guild. Still play solo.
- RMT for "success"
- Accept the fact that the game isn't designed for solos, move on.
So you think that having a narrow selection of classes and a even more narrow selection for roles is a good thing?
I am saying that people who take issue with the class system have plenty of other games they can play, because so far there is no real reason for Intrepid to reconsider the current 8x8 class system. The design idea is good and makes sense on paper and as long as the testing of that system doesn't prove the theoretic idea wrong there is nothing that would justify deviating from the current path.
I am making the post because I can see how things will go wrong, baring a minor miracle. I said this in the OP I started thinking that fixing the class system would solve the problem. As I got to about the half way point I realized this game had way larger problems then I thought. And given the devs are human and humans can make mistakes maybe the devs made a mistake and didn't realize it. Because the devs aren't infallible.
There is plenty of reason to read through the post because the post is not a bunch of suggestions, it's a prediction. And when someone predicts something using logic and reason and interdisciplinary practices its a good idea to at least listen to what they have to say. And then if there right you maybe listen more next time and heed the warning.
Just so I understand this right: The entirety of Intrepid, a studio full of veteran MMORPG players themselves with the additional experience of being game designers for years if not decades, ALL overlooked as you said it "way larger problems" in almost all its core systems and you have figured it out despite only having joined something like 2 months ago? With all due respect despite the fact that Intrepid obviously is not perfect and on point with each of its decisions, that sounds to me like you are just quite full of yourself even though nothing indicates that you are either knowledgeable about the project or game development.
So you do think the devs are infallible. Okay got it.
0
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You didn't read the post, because if you had you would know that a solo player will have worse gear, and be lower level, and even if they do some how get gear AND are higher level the corruption system will probably weaken them enough to make sure the last person kills them. And even if they can't kill him and they all die, that's not griefing that's getting ganked, and the amount of corruption will likely force them to leave. Groups will not have that problem.
I don't care a whit about your unsupported claim that Soloers wil have worse gear. Especially since, even if it were a valid claim, it shouldn't matter if you're playing Solo.
Why would the Corruption system be weakening Soloers?? The Corruption system weakens PKers.
A player who repeatedly disrupts other players' gameplay is a Griefer. Doesn't really matter how they are griefing. Corruption is irrelevant with regard to whether someone is Griefer.
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I already responded to this but I wanted to add something else. It's not just that I am disadvantaged by being solo, but that for as long as the game exists I will be disadvantaged and by a large margin, in particular the numbers, which I'm used to at this point, and in gear.
OK. Then play some other game.
Ashes does not force anyone to Solo. That's your choice.
4
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
But what about those who join later, who are inevitably going to be behind everyone else? Who do they group up with? The pool of similar players, that are at a similar stage of the game will be smaller and smaller.
This is why a big part of the game needs to be "solo" friendly.
Can't really "get behind everyone else" in Ashes.
Ashes is a dynamic game, rather than a static game.
The world changes as Nodes rise and fall.
Newbies will find each other near the Portals. But, again, you do not have to mechanically join a Group to fight alongside other players - regardless of their Levels.
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So you do think the devs are infallible. Okay got it.
We think the Intrepid game devs are way better and more experienced at designing MMORPGs than you are. Yes.
3
bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Having time this morning, drinking coffee and I read your Novela.
Let's start here.
So, let's start with the guild system, this obviously relives pressure from players. There's no doubt about that. Not every player, solo and casual players wont receive any benefits from guild perks. On top of that some of the pressure shifts rather then disappearing, the pressure comes from other players, falls squarely on solo and casual players.
"Oh, nay, nay" I hear you say, hold your horses. It mostly comes from the always on PvP, this in and of itself isn't a problem, however when you kill people in the open world they drop stuff, and if they're corrupted they drop gear. Now, we need to do a thought experiment. I want you to imagine you're playing AoC and come to a clearing, there's one person in a guild, a Group of four, and one person not in a guild, you have to kill one, who do you choose? I'm going to assume everyone was intellectually honest and picked the one person not in a guild because it is the lowest risk thing, this is because of a psychological human trait called risk aversion which people have. If your saying "I need more information what level are they blah blah blah", that's called dodging the question, but please post that so I know you aren't intellectually honest.
Why?
Why do I have to kill someone?
How do you know they aren't in a group just because some one is not in a guild?
If you come across a random collection of 6 people and choose to attack one as a solo player, the statement play stupid games win stupid prizes comes to mid.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
0
bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Next we go here:
Caravans!!! Everyone's favorite system, unfortunately can't be used by solo players at all, even if you're a particularly high functioning adult and think you can wait till 3 am and then send the caravan since caravan events are a thing which prevent you from doing even that, but as far as I can tell it does not directly incentivize people to kill solo players people so that's good. While technically it could benefit solo players it would require you to hang out in the area where the caravans spawn like some jaded wife waiting for lifetime alimony, then shadow it in the hopes that some other larger group shows up. Even then that doesn't guarantee any spoils, or that they wont kill you right after. Uber guilds that can take advantage of the system get a huge pressure release because they can multiply any of their earnings by 5 ensuring their entire guild is stupid rich all the time, and anything they need they can just buy.
Caravans can be started at anytime by anyone. The odd of completing the caravan will vary greatly on many things including body count guarding it.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
0
bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited September 2
Not going to lie this part made me laugh.
""Castle and Node sieges are a thing. I don't see a problem with Castle sieges, if toddlers want to spend 3 hours fighting over a sand castle that's their prerogative. Node sieges on the other hand are another story. Mainly because they upend everything anyone was trying to do and force you to deal with that, or leave, rather then do what you want. So your choices are forced content, which solo players are likely to lose, or move to a new area, and learn that area from scratch. This is another system that favors guilds, the bigger they are the better off they are again. This is probably the biggest slap in the face you can do to people. This does not make me feel like a player in a game, it makes me feel like I'm content for someone else's game. And while you can do that in a game you never want it to feel like that is what's happening, and no matter what you do, how fun and engaging you make these systems to participate in you will ultimately still be in a situation where you are the monkey being forced to dance for other peoples entertainment.
Node sieges are not opt in. You have two choices "Flee or Die"(IYKYK), there is no opt out. I know I'm going to get push back on this, but for something to be opt in you need to be able to opt out. Fleeing is not opting out because you never asked to be in the situation in the first place. Your are being forced to choose not being asked if you would like a choice. The other tack some might take is the by entering the game you are opting in, and okay fair enough nodes are ubiquitous so maybe that is a valid argument. Let's list the other sanctioned "battlegrounds" them Guild Wars, Castle Sieges, Naval PvP, Caravans, and Node Wars. The first 4 of those are actually opt in, arguably doubly so, first opt in to the guild system, then opt into the content. Node Wars is a pseudo-opt in system. You technically opt in because you vote for a mayor, problem is people can lie, (insert suitably insulting comment about politicians here). So while there are some that might say that people can opt in, I cannot agree with that. Node Sieges are even further from opt in because there is no way to avoid them unless you bypass the citizenship process all together, and even if you do, you still face the consequences of some one sieging the node you call home.
But what about peoples first interaction with the Node Siege system? Why don't we look at what the first experience of a node siege will be like, and tackle losing a node siege after. The first thing we need to know is when will the first sieges start to occur. How do we figure out that? well we have a number 200 to 300 hours to maximum level. At 28 to 42 hours per week that's 4.5 to 11 weeks as per the wiki. So what level can sieges be initiated? Well we know that 21 days after a node advances to a new stage, a siege can't be declared, and we also know village is the first stage that can be sieged. We know it will take a few days which usually means 3 or more, and many tends to mean 5 to 8 on the lower scale, which means on average it should take 3-4 days to get a node from Wilderness stage to the Village stage. There will be nothing average about the launch of the game so you will probably see Villages on launch day this means that the very first sieges CAN occur on day 22. Okay so we have a minimum point at which to start. Now when will people start doing node sieges, probably around max level given it is end game content.""
If you claim your node as your home then I would expect you to protect it. There are always choices.
"There are no solutions only trade offs." Thomas Sowell
But lets ask questions.
The stated pillar is risk vs reward. Setting up home in a node is a risk and has it's rewards.
Weather solo or in a large guild why would you choose to not defend it?
And if you lose it is the same as every other game. Dust your self off, get better and play again.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
0
bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Your class system comments at the end are all personal perception. If you give players everything all at once you get information overload. Reason we don't teach 1st graders calculus. The need to learn basic systems and build on them.
But there is good news.
They are looking for people to help build.
We're not creating a solo game, but it doesn't mean that we don't offer gameplay that is solo centric as well: It lives in addition to the social aspect of What MMOs provide; and so part of what we do in order to to give that element of gameplay is we have quest lines that are devoted towards solo players. We have hunting grounds. Obviously one of the benefits of being a solo player is you get to keep everything that drops. You don't have to share loot with a party or with friends; that's one benefit of being a solo player. But it's going to be more difficult to overcome challenges; and those individuals who are up to taking that additional level of of difficulty are going to excel perhaps in their character progression a bit faster than those who are more group-centric. It's going to be a little bit of a roll of the dice there because there are loot tables, there are reward tables that accompany that, but it's important to note that from a content perspective Ashes of Creation is looking to fulfill both that solo-oriented mind in gameplay as well as the group and social experience; and a lot of times those paths diverge: They move apart, they come back together; and that process is going to be seen throughout the leveling in Ashes of Creation where you'll have more opportunities for solo gameplay and some opportunities for group gameplay.[2] – Steven Sharif
I'd suggest wait and see rather than assuming solo players are completely fucked.
In regard to solos learning pvp: Outside of open world, there are plans for 1v1 arenas and dueling.
Can trade for best crafted gear.
A few other options for solos that are dead-set on playing a game that isn't designed for them:
- Join a guild. Still play solo.
- RMT for "success"
- Accept the fact that the game isn't designed for solos, move on.
So you just didn't read the post, but felt like commenting anyways.
First that statement means fuck all to the FACT that people coming into the game 6 months after launch will have no choice but to solo.
PvP is balanced around group content and the game has a paper rock scissors design. So 1v1 arenas are dumb and amount to gambling for a win. Duels obviously wont help given they need group content.
Imagine saying use RMT to get gear on a game.
Oh, and it's not an assumption it's a necessary condition of the game given the current planned implementation.
So you just didn't read the post, but felt like commenting anyways.
First that statement means fuck all to the FACT that people coming into the game 6 months after launch will have no choice but to solo.
PvP is balanced around group content and the game has a paper rock scissors design. So 1v1 arenas are dumb and amount to gambling for a win. Duels obviously wont help given they need group content.
Imagine saying use RMT to get gear on a game.
Oh, and it's not an assumption it's a necessary condition of the game given the current planned implementation.
Nah, I read through most of it. Skimmed through some. I commented because your post is baseless, arbitrary speculation built off assumptions that you're spewing as facts. If you insist on willful ignorance that's your choice, obviously. But don't come in here and try to spin it into something it's not when Steven/Intrepid have addressed your issue and you choose to disregard it.
It's like going to a Mexican restaurant and demanding to be served Chinese food. Umm, sir, we don't serve that here.
First there is no reason to assume most people are in guilds given most MMO players are solo, meaning at best your looking at 50% of people being in guilds.
Really?
Where are they?
I often literally go months in an MMORPG without seeing a non-guilded character that is above level 10.
Are you talking about this game?
No, I'm talking about almost any MMORPG.
I almost never see unguilded players out running content. There are a few around town - mostly low level shit-talking alts.
The notion that half of MMORPG players are unguilded is kind of a wild claim, tbh.
Running content? you mean doing dungeons and raids? Yeah you wouldn't see anyone not in a guild doing that because solo players CAN'T do that.
But for the sake of argument let's assume that 100% of people will be in guilds at launch. And lets assume that 5 million people (which would be a wildly high number) buy the game on or before launch. And lets assume the game runs for 10 years which means for 9.5 years people will be joining the game after the majority of people are max level. What percentage of players do you think that 9.5 years of growth amount to?
So you just didn't read the post, but felt like commenting anyways.
First that statement means fuck all to the FACT that people coming into the game 6 months after launch will have no choice but to solo.
PvP is balanced around group content and the game has a paper rock scissors design. So 1v1 arenas are dumb and amount to gambling for a win. Duels obviously wont help given they need group content.
Imagine saying use RMT to get gear on a game.
Oh, and it's not an assumption it's a necessary condition of the game given the current planned implementation.
Nah, I read through most of it. Skimmed through some. I commented because your post is baseless, arbitrary speculation built off assumptions that you're spewing as facts. If you insist on willful ignorance that's your choice, obviously. But don't come in here and try to spin it into something it's not when Steven/Intrepid have addressed your issue and you choose to disregard it.
It's like going to a Mexican restaurant and demanding to be served Chinese food. Umm, sir, we don't serve that here.
You didn't read the post, because if you had you would know that a solo player will have worse gear, and be lower level, and even if they do some how get gear AND are higher level the corruption system will probably weaken them enough to make sure the last person kills them. And even if they can't kill him and they all die, that's not griefing that's getting ganked, and the amount of corruption will likely force them to leave. Groups will not have that problem.
I don't care a whit about your unsupported claim that Soloers wil have worse gear. Especially since, even if it were a valid claim, it shouldn't matter if you're playing Solo.
Why would the Corruption system be weakening Soloers?? The Corruption system weakens PKers.
A player who repeatedly disrupts other players' gameplay is a Griefer. Doesn't really matter how they are griefing. Corruption is irrelevant with regard to whether someone is Griefer.
You didn't read the post because if you had you would know that not only is solo players having worse gear supported it's the logical outcome of giving groups an experience bonus in a game where. In fact it's one of the most for certain things to say about a game that plans on having raids which will give gear.
The corruption system being more punishing for solo players is obvious especially if you read the post.
AoC is a group-based game, created and funded by a former guild-leader. The whole point of AoC existing is being a game made for guilds. Solo players have dozens of MMOs on the market that cater for their playstyle, this is not one of them.
AoC is a group-based game, created and funded by a former guild-leader. The whole point of AoC existing is being a game made for guilds. Solo players have dozens of MMOs on the market that cater for their playstyle, this is not one of them.
First that's not everything, but given its length that can be forgiven.
So then anyone that joins 6 months after launch is just fucked?
Running content? you mean doing dungeons and raids? Yeah you wouldn't see anyone not in a guild doing that because solo players CAN'T do that.
Are you sure?
I ran lot's of pugs as a solo player before getting an invite to a raid guild.
Why aren't PUG's a thing here?
I figured they were and I just didn't do them. But if you want to find guilds go to raids, if you want to find solo players maybe don't look for them while running group content given they tend to not gravitate towards that stuff.
0
bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The whole of AOC is centered around:
interdependence
Mutual dependence.
The condition of being interdependent.
A reciprocal relation between interdependent entities (objects or individuals or groups).
Everything from the Archetypes to crafting is all centered around interdependence.
That is the reason I got my wallet out for kickstarter. Steven's vision for for this project to be centered on groups and group play.
With ever so many many pretender MMO's why make another?
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
The final conclusion, this game heavily favors guilds in what I can only describe as the most blatant bias and total disregard I have ever seen in an MMO. There is not a single system that works in favor of solo/single/casual players.
Overall, I agree to nearly everything you say. I‘ve been playing MMOs since DAoC/WoW (until New World, and a lot in between like Warhammer, Aion, Rift, Neverwinter, Terra, GW2, ESO, FF14x, …) and count myself from highly invested PvX player (Raiding in WoW, Gladiator in PvP Arena and rated Battlegrounds, sPvP in Guild Wars 2, and so on) to „casual“ meanwhile, because I‘m 20 years older now.
Whereas I‘m still a social guy, I hope ;-), I lack time to bind my playing time to other players or guilds and their expectations, although there are enough casual guilds out there, but they will not really work in AoC, they will not have success and access to real endgame items, features, goals.
But, thinking about that and liking to play a high fantasy MMO with „old school“ aspects I just have to say: Well, it‘s me than. Perhaps to old, perhaps wrong game all together.
But: I will give AoC a chance, because I like 3rd Person Fantasy RPGs (MMOs and Singleplayer) and I will try to find a casual guild to at least participate in some group content as good as possible instead of trying to change this vision and ideas.
So, yes, solo players will definitely not get the 100% package, thats just true and from all we have seen so far this will soon be a fact, not only an assumption.
But, I will try to find some chilled players to have the best experience I can get together with them and accept, that a 12h a day guild player will be ahead of me. Thats ok, that‘s virtual life. Without playing in group content I again agree, you (and me), we will be locked out, gear-wise, crafting-wise (ressources of raid bosses, …) and probably event-wisen (nothing to do solo if a caravan is protected from 40 guild members, even not as rogue I guess).
So perhaps you can try to see things more relaxed? They will not change the game to WoW, where you can solo a lot meanwhile (vanilla WoW was different to that and the better game), so maybe, although your assumptions make sense to me, start AoC more relaxed - perhaps it will work also for you.
What‘s the reason why you think you won‘t find a suitable guild? Or do you just dislike being part of a group? If yes, why? My very beginnings in MMOs (DAoC, WoW) were not possible without groups, guilds and friends. And thats the best experience, but the most time-binding and -consuming one.
(sorry for my English, no native speaker as you can imagine)
Mutual dependence.
The condition of being interdependent.
A reciprocal relation between interdependent entities (objects or individuals or groups).
Everything from the Archetypes to crafting is all centered around interdependence.
That is the reason I got my wallet out for kickstarter. Steven's vision for for this project to be centered on groups and group play.
With ever so many many pretender MMO's why make another?
Okay. Make an actual ownership system for the nodes and have guilds be the owners, then solo players can choose which guild they want to be around. Give some sort of advantage for doing that (faster node progression.) so now the guild is incentivized to protect individual players. And if they prove themselves in OWPvP maybe even want to give him some gear. Because that is better then the ever present circular logic of;
to get in a group you need good gear
to get good gear you need to run dungeons
to run dungeons you need to get in a group
See this is part of the problem, communities in games like this act like solo players are cancer. Then create circular logic like the above example which locks anyone out of joining the community so it slowly bleeds out. You have to create a space for people that are new to MMOs and new to this genre of MMO or this game like all the others before it will slowly bleed players until the last server shuts down.
0
bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Sounds like we as the community NEED to do a better job helping new people get acclimated into the game as it is vs begging to make the game something it is not intended to be.
Most gear is supposed to be crafted. Nobody can do all the crafting on a single toon. We will need to interact with others to get the materials (raw and processed) to build gear. So even crafting requires interaction with others.
All of this stuff is why many of us are here. We have no desire to go play something that allows a single player to do everything on a single character.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
Also, I'm not expecting to get everything but you need to give them something. Every one likes to join guilds at different points in the game. Some people like joining right away, some people like to level to max then find a guild. Some people like to get a little gear then join.
So the problem solo players need to fix is themselves, being solo - make some friends.
Good plan tell 70% of the MMO population pass on this game.
Not every player who has a preference for solo gameplay is as much of a sour grape as you.
Many of those 70% might enjoy the playstyle of WoW, or whatever other solo-friendly MMO, for now, because it's what has worked so far - but would be perfectly willing to adjust their expectations and behaviours in order to fit into a game where the priorities and demands are different, and change the way they play, if they find that this new gameplay loop is also enjoyable.
As for the rest, yes.
Yes, it is a fantastic idea to tell them to pass on this game.
All the reasons why WoW is such a boring soulless themepark filled with dailies and grind quests and arenas instead of anything of substance can be traced back to its attempt of appealing to everyone:
Where comfort and convenience are cranked up to the max.
And where communication and finding people whose playstyles you agree with is entirely optional, and grouping is streamlined without any social interaction required.
Ashes doesn't make this mistake.
Ashes is for players who are willing to combine PvP and PvE challenges,
who are willing to compete for high rewards at high risks and accept the setback when other players beat them to the objective,
and who care about building a world where their contribution alters the way the world looks, and what happens in it.
The rest can go play WoW, FFXIV and ESO, instead of disappointing themselves with something that wasn't made to appeal to their demands for a soloplay themepark LFG lobby.
The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
I'm not expecting to get everything but you need to give them something.
They will get something, but not the best tier gear/items, but one/two/whatever tiers below.
That, in AoC, will be the consequence of being no part of an entire group/guild.
Again, I can see all your points, I‘ve been playing long enough and got the experience of all hype and drama of a lot of MMos out there. AoC will be a very group based MMO, it makes no sense that you or me dislike that, but, to arrange with it and give it a try.
If it will be a 12h a day MMO with 95% group and no content for afterwork and casual gamers, than I will leave it to the elitist players that have all the time in the world and thats it. But I will figure this out by myself and I will decide than, wheter its a game for me or not.
And, if its a game that will not respect the time of the average players / the mass than it will fail, as all those games did in the past. This will not work or only for a small group of players. If there is no meaningful content if you only login for 1-2h every day oder every second day, than AoC will quite fast only have a very small playerbase - the death for player created environments (nodes, caravans, sieges, …).
Comments
I am saying that people who take issue with the class system have plenty of other games they can play, because so far there is no real reason for Intrepid to reconsider the current 8x8 class system. The design idea is good and makes sense on paper and as long as the testing of that system doesn't prove the theoretic idea wrong there is nothing that would justify deviating from the current path.
Just so I understand this right: The entirety of Intrepid, a studio full of veteran MMORPG players themselves with the additional experience of being game designers for years if not decades, ALL overlooked as you said it "way larger problems" in almost all its core systems and you have figured it out despite only having joined something like 2 months ago? With all due respect despite the fact that Intrepid obviously is not perfect and on point with each of its decisions, that sounds to me like you are just quite full of yourself even though nothing indicates that you are either knowledgable about the project or game development.
No, I'm talking about almost any MMORPG.
I almost never see unguilded players out running content. There are a few around town - mostly low level shit-talking alts.
The notion that half of MMORPG players are unguilded is kind of a wild claim, tbh.
I'd suggest wait and see rather than assuming solo players are completely fucked.
In regard to solos learning pvp: Outside of open world, there are plans for 1v1 arenas and dueling.
Can trade for best crafted gear.
A few other options for solos that are dead-set on playing a game that isn't designed for them:
- Join a guild. Still play solo.
- RMT for "success"
- Accept the fact that the game isn't designed for solos, move on.
- Shaiya circa 2007-2008 - Guild Wars 2 circa 2014-2016 - ArcheAge circa 2016-2018
- Black Desert 2019-2024 - ESO 2021-2024 - FFXIV(fake pvp)2021-2022
So you do think the devs are infallible. Okay got it.
Why would the Corruption system be weakening Soloers?? The Corruption system weakens PKers.
A player who repeatedly disrupts other players' gameplay is a Griefer. Doesn't really matter how they are griefing. Corruption is irrelevant with regard to whether someone is Griefer.
Ashes does not force anyone to Solo. That's your choice.
Ashes is a dynamic game, rather than a static game.
The world changes as Nodes rise and fall.
Newbies will find each other near the Portals. But, again, you do not have to mechanically join a Group to fight alongside other players - regardless of their Levels.
Let's start here.
So, let's start with the guild system, this obviously relives pressure from players. There's no doubt about that. Not every player, solo and casual players wont receive any benefits from guild perks. On top of that some of the pressure shifts rather then disappearing, the pressure comes from other players, falls squarely on solo and casual players.
"Oh, nay, nay" I hear you say, hold your horses. It mostly comes from the always on PvP, this in and of itself isn't a problem, however when you kill people in the open world they drop stuff, and if they're corrupted they drop gear. Now, we need to do a thought experiment. I want you to imagine you're playing AoC and come to a clearing, there's one person in a guild, a Group of four, and one person not in a guild, you have to kill one, who do you choose? I'm going to assume everyone was intellectually honest and picked the one person not in a guild because it is the lowest risk thing, this is because of a psychological human trait called risk aversion which people have. If your saying "I need more information what level are they blah blah blah", that's called dodging the question, but please post that so I know you aren't intellectually honest.
Why?
Why do I have to kill someone?
How do you know they aren't in a group just because some one is not in a guild?
If you come across a random collection of 6 people and choose to attack one as a solo player, the statement play stupid games win stupid prizes comes to mid.
Caravans!!! Everyone's favorite system, unfortunately can't be used by solo players at all, even if you're a particularly high functioning adult and think you can wait till 3 am and then send the caravan since caravan events are a thing which prevent you from doing even that, but as far as I can tell it does not directly incentivize people to kill solo players people so that's good. While technically it could benefit solo players it would require you to hang out in the area where the caravans spawn like some jaded wife waiting for lifetime alimony, then shadow it in the hopes that some other larger group shows up. Even then that doesn't guarantee any spoils, or that they wont kill you right after. Uber guilds that can take advantage of the system get a huge pressure release because they can multiply any of their earnings by 5 ensuring their entire guild is stupid rich all the time, and anything they need they can just buy.
Caravans can be started at anytime by anyone. The odd of completing the caravan will vary greatly on many things including body count guarding it.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Caravans
""Castle and Node sieges are a thing. I don't see a problem with Castle sieges, if toddlers want to spend 3 hours fighting over a sand castle that's their prerogative. Node sieges on the other hand are another story. Mainly because they upend everything anyone was trying to do and force you to deal with that, or leave, rather then do what you want. So your choices are forced content, which solo players are likely to lose, or move to a new area, and learn that area from scratch. This is another system that favors guilds, the bigger they are the better off they are again. This is probably the biggest slap in the face you can do to people. This does not make me feel like a player in a game, it makes me feel like I'm content for someone else's game. And while you can do that in a game you never want it to feel like that is what's happening, and no matter what you do, how fun and engaging you make these systems to participate in you will ultimately still be in a situation where you are the monkey being forced to dance for other peoples entertainment.
Node sieges are not opt in. You have two choices "Flee or Die"(IYKYK), there is no opt out. I know I'm going to get push back on this, but for something to be opt in you need to be able to opt out. Fleeing is not opting out because you never asked to be in the situation in the first place. Your are being forced to choose not being asked if you would like a choice. The other tack some might take is the by entering the game you are opting in, and okay fair enough nodes are ubiquitous so maybe that is a valid argument. Let's list the other sanctioned "battlegrounds" them Guild Wars, Castle Sieges, Naval PvP, Caravans, and Node Wars. The first 4 of those are actually opt in, arguably doubly so, first opt in to the guild system, then opt into the content. Node Wars is a pseudo-opt in system. You technically opt in because you vote for a mayor, problem is people can lie, (insert suitably insulting comment about politicians here). So while there are some that might say that people can opt in, I cannot agree with that. Node Sieges are even further from opt in because there is no way to avoid them unless you bypass the citizenship process all together, and even if you do, you still face the consequences of some one sieging the node you call home.
But what about peoples first interaction with the Node Siege system? Why don't we look at what the first experience of a node siege will be like, and tackle losing a node siege after. The first thing we need to know is when will the first sieges start to occur. How do we figure out that? well we have a number 200 to 300 hours to maximum level. At 28 to 42 hours per week that's 4.5 to 11 weeks as per the wiki. So what level can sieges be initiated? Well we know that 21 days after a node advances to a new stage, a siege can't be declared, and we also know village is the first stage that can be sieged. We know it will take a few days which usually means 3 or more, and many tends to mean 5 to 8 on the lower scale, which means on average it should take 3-4 days to get a node from Wilderness stage to the Village stage. There will be nothing average about the launch of the game so you will probably see Villages on launch day this means that the very first sieges CAN occur on day 22. Okay so we have a minimum point at which to start. Now when will people start doing node sieges, probably around max level given it is end game content.""
If you claim your node as your home then I would expect you to protect it. There are always choices.
"There are no solutions only trade offs." Thomas Sowell
But lets ask questions.
The stated pillar is risk vs reward. Setting up home in a node is a risk and has it's rewards.
Weather solo or in a large guild why would you choose to not defend it?
And if you lose it is the same as every other game. Dust your self off, get better and play again.
But there is good news.
They are looking for people to help build.
https://intrepidstudios.com/careers
First that statement means fuck all to the FACT that people coming into the game 6 months after launch will have no choice but to solo.
PvP is balanced around group content and the game has a paper rock scissors design. So 1v1 arenas are dumb and amount to gambling for a win. Duels obviously wont help given they need group content.
Imagine saying use RMT to get gear on a game.
Oh, and it's not an assumption it's a necessary condition of the game given the current planned implementation.
Nah, I read through most of it. Skimmed through some. I commented because your post is baseless, arbitrary speculation built off assumptions that you're spewing as facts. If you insist on willful ignorance that's your choice, obviously. But don't come in here and try to spin it into something it's not when Steven/Intrepid have addressed your issue and you choose to disregard it.
It's like going to a Mexican restaurant and demanding to be served Chinese food. Umm, sir, we don't serve that here.
- Shaiya circa 2007-2008 - Guild Wars 2 circa 2014-2016 - ArcheAge circa 2016-2018
- Black Desert 2019-2024 - ESO 2021-2024 - FFXIV(fake pvp)2021-2022
Running content? you mean doing dungeons and raids? Yeah you wouldn't see anyone not in a guild doing that because solo players CAN'T do that.
But for the sake of argument let's assume that 100% of people will be in guilds at launch. And lets assume that 5 million people (which would be a wildly high number) buy the game on or before launch. And lets assume the game runs for 10 years which means for 9.5 years people will be joining the game after the majority of people are max level. What percentage of players do you think that 9.5 years of growth amount to?
What assumptions? Give me some exact examples.
Your entire OP.
- Shaiya circa 2007-2008 - Guild Wars 2 circa 2014-2016 - ArcheAge circa 2016-2018
- Black Desert 2019-2024 - ESO 2021-2024 - FFXIV(fake pvp)2021-2022
Are you sure?
I ran lot's of pugs as a solo player before getting an invite to a raid guild.
Why aren't PUG's a thing here?
You didn't read the post because if you had you would know that not only is solo players having worse gear supported it's the logical outcome of giving groups an experience bonus in a game where. In fact it's one of the most for certain things to say about a game that plans on having raids which will give gear.
The corruption system being more punishing for solo players is obvious especially if you read the post.
Thank god for chat gpt.
AoC is a group-based game, created and funded by a former guild-leader. The whole point of AoC existing is being a game made for guilds. Solo players have dozens of MMOs on the market that cater for their playstyle, this is not one of them.
First that's not everything, but given its length that can be forgiven.
So then anyone that joins 6 months after launch is just fucked?
So you don't understand how logic works, and you don't understand what an assumption is.
Like when I said Solo players will end up being lower level then people in guilds. That was just a baseless assumption. No logic involved there?
I figured they were and I just didn't do them. But if you want to find guilds go to raids, if you want to find solo players maybe don't look for them while running group content given they tend to not gravitate towards that stuff.
interdependence
Mutual dependence.
The condition of being interdependent.
A reciprocal relation between interdependent entities (objects or individuals or groups).
Everything from the Archetypes to crafting is all centered around interdependence.
That is the reason I got my wallet out for kickstarter. Steven's vision for for this project to be centered on groups and group play.
With ever so many many pretender MMO's why make another?
Whereas I‘m still a social guy, I hope ;-), I lack time to bind my playing time to other players or guilds and their expectations, although there are enough casual guilds out there, but they will not really work in AoC, they will not have success and access to real endgame items, features, goals.
But, thinking about that and liking to play a high fantasy MMO with „old school“ aspects I just have to say: Well, it‘s me than. Perhaps to old, perhaps wrong game all together.
But: I will give AoC a chance, because I like 3rd Person Fantasy RPGs (MMOs and Singleplayer) and I will try to find a casual guild to at least participate in some group content as good as possible instead of trying to change this vision and ideas.
So, yes, solo players will definitely not get the 100% package, thats just true and from all we have seen so far this will soon be a fact, not only an assumption.
But, I will try to find some chilled players to have the best experience I can get together with them and accept, that a 12h a day guild player will be ahead of me. Thats ok, that‘s virtual life. Without playing in group content I again agree, you (and me), we will be locked out, gear-wise, crafting-wise (ressources of raid bosses, …) and probably event-wisen (nothing to do solo if a caravan is protected from 40 guild members, even not as rogue I guess).
So perhaps you can try to see things more relaxed? They will not change the game to WoW, where you can solo a lot meanwhile (vanilla WoW was different to that and the better game), so maybe, although your assumptions make sense to me, start AoC more relaxed - perhaps it will work also for you.
What‘s the reason why you think you won‘t find a suitable guild? Or do you just dislike being part of a group? If yes, why? My very beginnings in MMOs (DAoC, WoW) were not possible without groups, guilds and friends. And thats the best experience, but the most time-binding and -consuming one.
(sorry for my English, no native speaker as you can imagine)
Okay. Make an actual ownership system for the nodes and have guilds be the owners, then solo players can choose which guild they want to be around. Give some sort of advantage for doing that (faster node progression.) so now the guild is incentivized to protect individual players. And if they prove themselves in OWPvP maybe even want to give him some gear. Because that is better then the ever present circular logic of;
to get in a group you need good gear
to get good gear you need to run dungeons
to run dungeons you need to get in a group
See this is part of the problem, communities in games like this act like solo players are cancer. Then create circular logic like the above example which locks anyone out of joining the community so it slowly bleeds out. You have to create a space for people that are new to MMOs and new to this genre of MMO or this game like all the others before it will slowly bleed players until the last server shuts down.
Most gear is supposed to be crafted. Nobody can do all the crafting on a single toon. We will need to interact with others to get the materials (raw and processed) to build gear. So even crafting requires interaction with others.
All of this stuff is why many of us are here. We have no desire to go play something that allows a single player to do everything on a single character.
See the end of the above post.
Also, I'm not expecting to get everything but you need to give them something. Every one likes to join guilds at different points in the game. Some people like joining right away, some people like to level to max then find a guild. Some people like to get a little gear then join.
Many of those 70% might enjoy the playstyle of WoW, or whatever other solo-friendly MMO, for now, because it's what has worked so far - but would be perfectly willing to adjust their expectations and behaviours in order to fit into a game where the priorities and demands are different, and change the way they play, if they find that this new gameplay loop is also enjoyable.
As for the rest, yes.
Yes, it is a fantastic idea to tell them to pass on this game.
All the reasons why WoW is such a boring soulless themepark filled with dailies and grind quests and arenas instead of anything of substance can be traced back to its attempt of appealing to everyone:
Where comfort and convenience are cranked up to the max.
And where communication and finding people whose playstyles you agree with is entirely optional, and grouping is streamlined without any social interaction required.
Ashes doesn't make this mistake.
Ashes is for players who are willing to combine PvP and PvE challenges,
who are willing to compete for high rewards at high risks and accept the setback when other players beat them to the objective,
and who care about building a world where their contribution alters the way the world looks, and what happens in it.
The rest can go play WoW, FFXIV and ESO, instead of disappointing themselves with something that wasn't made to appeal to their demands for a soloplay themepark LFG lobby.
That, in AoC, will be the consequence of being no part of an entire group/guild.
Again, I can see all your points, I‘ve been playing long enough and got the experience of all hype and drama of a lot of MMos out there. AoC will be a very group based MMO, it makes no sense that you or me dislike that, but, to arrange with it and give it a try.
If it will be a 12h a day MMO with 95% group and no content for afterwork and casual gamers, than I will leave it to the elitist players that have all the time in the world and thats it. But I will figure this out by myself and I will decide than, wheter its a game for me or not.
And, if its a game that will not respect the time of the average players / the mass than it will fail, as all those games did in the past. This will not work or only for a small group of players. If there is no meaningful content if you only login for 1-2h every day oder every second day, than AoC will quite fast only have a very small playerbase - the death for player created environments (nodes, caravans, sieges, …).