So Alpha outplayed GW2 and ESO? I did not see anything that proofs this statement yet.
Can it be better than those two? Yes, there is potential. Otherwise I wouldnt watch AoC since several years.
So perhaps its the wrong kind of game for you?
Ive played a lot MMOs, and loved WoW, GW2 and ESO. But I‘ve played about 15, to gather experience and make up my mind whats a good MMO. And the conclusio is, in contrast to what you say: If a lot of players like it, than it’s good. If its only you that dislike it, its not the fault of those games with millions of players, which of course all have a wrong view if what a good MMO is.
Cooperation. Thats right. Thats an important pillar. If in every second everything is only competetive and challenging it lacks cooperation, increases toxic behaviour and lots of drama plus more frustration and less rewards due to missing progress possibilities.
L2 is dead because this kind of game is not offering what the majority of players want, and player behaviour (and age) changed. Its always simple to make „somebody else“ responsible. But perhaps that what you said happened.
Players who left WoW said, developer is guilty why they left. Players that still play WoW are saying, the developer is guilty because it still is the one of the best MMOs out there, although 20y old.
The reality is: Players are changing. The 20year old Lineage2 fan is adult now. He playes different. WoW adepted accordingly snd thats why it is still so succesful.
But please, mention 3-4 good pvp hardcore MMOs that work and are successful. Because there is a market, right?
Challenging? Please play mythic raids in WoW or get gladiator in pvp, if you think other released MMOs are not challenging You are a hero with incredible skills and weapons, of course not every single mob and pig in the wilderness is a challenge, this would only time-gate artificially. A solid MMO has got easy, middle and hard content at the players choice. If there is only hard content it lacks quality in choice and chilled gameplay at time, where the player wants to play but dont need huge challenges.
Cooperation and competition are both important.
Did mythic raiding in wow a few expansion back
Did wow hardcore servers . That was fun.
Before wow started handing out personal loot. We always did /roll. Main spec> off spec> greed and nobody got more then one piece of gear before everyone got a piece of gear.
Arena is not for me I find it meh. I prefer more chaos and larger battles fun like AV back in the day before it became a raid race to the boss.
Far from being the hardcore super human you think I am but thanks.
GW2 is all DPS all the time WvW is zergball vs zergball. A coworker loves that stuff and is always telling me about how he likes it. Which is great.
Can millions of people be wrong? Yes, yes they can.
Sometimes all popular opinion means, is all the fools are on the same side
Successful pvp MMO can be a very subjective thing. Are you talking about pure numbers of people playing or longevity? Several have private servers where the players rolled back the stuff the devs did that killed it.
I can't name any and I haven't looked. But I didn't go looking for them either. So that would be on you if you want to know more.
My only concern here is Steven presented a vision of what he wanted to make. Several thousand people said" That sounds awesome!" And we started following. Even in the early days people have tried to get them to charge it to make it "main stream".
The question remains if the game play style you like is out there why try to get a company to change their stated goals to match that instead of just going and doing that?
You are right about people's lives changing as time goes on. That is a good thing. Life becomes busy and commitments get in the way. Such is the way of things. Is that a good reason to take the challenge out of life and or games?
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
Bad fate, because who needs those casuals, right ?
I am not even sure if Ashes will be for "Casual" - as sensitive People react to how Hardcore the Open World will be, with the Possibility of being attacked everywhere.
Good Comment. Indeed. In 10 Years much can change for many Fans who followed the Game in Development in lets say when they were around +30 Years old. And now they all approach their Fourties or "ARE" in their Fourties,
-> meaning not everyone will probably stay very long. Will they even have the time still ?
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
If AoC is for the 10% hardcore players out there it should definitly change it's marketing and communication approach, because it will disappoint and decrease in reputation continously.
How much can they change when every other showcase it's being repeated over and over "this game is not for everyone", "not everyone is a winner in Ashes", "this is an open world pvp game", "only 20% of content is instanced, and majority of that is story-based stuff".
All of those points will not appeal to the modern mmo players. And all of those things have been stated and restated countless times in the last 7 years.
If by this point people still think that Ashes will somehow magically change into something similar to ff14 or wow - that's on them.
The problem is, they can say "this game is not for everyone" all they want, just like many people in the forums will do. They actually need to define who is it actually aimed for, and who is a part of the "not for everyone" crowd.
Because this is just vague, a lot of players will think, "oh maybe he's not talking about me, I like the idea of Ashes".
But I also understand why they DON'T do it. Because it brings them money, the game is being talked about, and keeping it vague, means more people are interested. It's in their best interest not to "alienate" a large portion of followers.
---
There have been some great points raised on last page.
They are making a game for those who are nostalgic about old MMOs, but like several posts here mentioned, those people are not teenagers anymore. Most of them have jobs, families... Which means they simply are not able to spend 8+ hours a day playing an MMO, grinding, etc. Obviously there are some adults who are still able to spend whole day playing the game (I've definitely seen many of them in Archeage classic).
They simply cannot be the main target audience. Or maybe they are.
Maybe this game is just for those rich adults (like Steven himself), who have enough money to buy all sorts of packs, Alpha access, etc. Maybe it's for those that don't have a job, who can spend whole day playing the game.
Maybe, this whole game is meant for whales to have fun with, while the rest will suffer - just like most of the P2W garbage MMOs we've seen. Except, we know that it won't be P2W.
I don't want anyone to come in here now saying how I want to change the game, that "it's not for you", etc. because these are just easy copouts for people who don't want to engage in a conversation.
--
With that out of the way, let's actually talk about something.
As in most of my posts, I'd like to use Archeage as an example.
The amount of power gained by people who are no-lifing the game, hardcore players who are very efficient, and who can play for 8-10+ hours a day, is simply too much. More casual players are simply left behind massively, which in turn makes them useless in any sort of PvP. This is an issue with game's design, because of the gearing system and how much power it gives you.
We know gear in Ashes will only account for so much power (40-50%), not for most of it. But this remains to be seen and tested, because this could very much be changed before release.
By taking away power from gear, you have to put it somewhere else. Steven said the balance is focused around a party of 8. The 3rd component is skill.
The issue with this is that if the gear is 40-50% of player power, that same player who has higher gear, who is likely a hardcore player, will also have better skill, meaning they're already way ahead of your regular player in terms of power.
Balance being around a party of 8 also remains to be tested, because I simply do not know how that's going to work in the open-world stuff where you don't have a party of 8. Again, assuming everyone will always be in a 8-man group, while playing the game, is ridiculous to me - though I do understand why they'd want to balance stuff around groups.
This means that group content (dungeons, mass PvP) will be balanced, however anything open-world where you don't have a party of 8, instanced PvP, etc. will be unbalanced.
And everything I've talked about brings me back to this whole post/topic. How can a more solo/casual oriented player ever be anything but useless in this game, when they're being disadvantaged at every step? I mean, I've just pointed out yet another system that heavily disadvantages non-hardcore players.
Being more hardcore obviously should also bring you benefits, but not to this extent where basically you will dunk on non-hardcore players in every aspect of the game, from PvP and group content, to economy.
To answer your first questions, It's not that I dislike being in a group. It's that l like being able to do as I please in the game. Being part of a group means you have to do something the group agrees on. With guilds you get even less flexibility.
This is exactly my thinking as well.
I absolutely love doing group content, in a group, whether it's dungeons, world bosses, sieges, or any other PvP in general.
But I absolutely will not be doing only group content. At this moment, I just feel like I won't have enough meaningful content to do outside of group content, based on what we've seen so far.
Also, like I've mentioned previously, the game's focus is risk vs reward, yet solo/casual players are basically all risk and no reward. We should be able to choose how much risk we want to take, and then be rewarded accordingly.
Overall, this just makes me feel like the game is meant for sweaty hardcore players, to compete with other sweaty hardcore players, while regular players are just there to populate the world, to make the game seem alive.
They are making a game for those who are nostalgic about old MMOs, but like several posts here mentioned, those people are not teenagers anymore. Most of them have jobs, families... Which means they simply are not able to spend 8+ hours a day playing an MMO, grinding, etc. Obviously there are some adults who are still able to spend whole day playing the game (I've definitely seen many of them in Archeage classic).
They simply cannot be the main target audience. Or maybe they are.
Here's a thought about this.
Why did we, as young kids, grind our favorite mmos? From what've I've seen/talked about with friends - it's usually cause we were proving ourselves to others (and to ourselves as well). In an mmo you're just a random dude, so if you manage to achieve something big - that's you. You achieved that. And when you're a kid who hasn't achieved shit irl - mmos are a great place to make some achievements.
Now think about an established, relatively successful adult with a family and shit. What and to whom do they have to prove? Unless they're so damn miserable in their real life - there's no reason for them to strive for the same achievements in game, because their irl stuff would always overshadow those pixels.
To me this sounds like the TA of Ashes ARE successful adults, who won't care about some random 0.01% trinket that drops from an epic boss, because the only thing that such a trinket would prove is that you have a lot of free time on your hands.
So the game has to simply be fun to play and you should have places to chill and socialize with other same dudes. And this is where this part of your comment comes in
Also, like I've mentioned previously, the game's focus is risk vs reward, yet solo/casual players are basically all risk and no reward. We should be able to choose how much risk we want to take, and then be rewarded accordingly.
Solos and casuals have the lowest risk.
They are defended by the corruption system.
They don't have as much invested in housing, so even if their node falls - they won't lose nearly as much as the hardcore sweats.
They're probably not as invested in node dealing, or even the node itself, as someone like me who's gonna be nolifing the game trying to become a mayor. Which means that they're free to move from node to node if they feel like it.
They have all the professions in the game to explore/try and they wouldn't care about the sweat lvls of top lvl processing requiring freeholds, cause it would take a casual player moooooonth to get even near to the top processing lvls.
Casuals have the free market, so they don't need to care about hardcore raids and their guild-related requirements, because the casual player can just chill, farm stuff at their own pace and gear up at the same pace as well. And the more market-savvy players can spend their time manipulating the markets and earn the money for better gear through that. I know several older dudes from L2 that barely even leveled their char, but were millionaires, just because they played the market well.
There's gonna be countless casual and solo friendly guilds out there that will not require anything from the player and will just be a social hub that make partying up easier (I will make one for my node and will be helping anyone who needs helping).
All of that will be in the game, all while sweaties are fighting each other for bosses and castles and are waking up in the middle of the night cause the raid's respawn timer randomed slightly later than it should've. So it all simply comes down to what those older players are looking for. If they're looking for the same experience as they had when they were a kid - that's just a fantasy that would never come true even if Intrepid presented them bosses on a silver platter (which, btw, story bosses will be; literally instanced for your pleasure).
But if your irl is good - you can just log in and chill in a game with other older dudes and enjoy the vibes. And yes, I know, you could pretty much do the same in any other mmo, but how many of those have the same kind of living and changing world that Ashes will supposedly have? What other game could change in one night, where you login the next evening and realize that an entire "kingdom" has fallen apart and there's utter panic going on.
Back in late 00s I played L2 with several older dudes who were playing L2 in the exact way I described. They'd log into the game, open a beer and just chill in guild chat while grinding some mobs on the side. And they'd watch huge pvps happening near them, just as entertainment. Those dudes had wives, kids, houses, etc. They were completely satisfied with their life and the game just provided them with a group of people with a similar interest that they could talk to every day. A true social experience.
They are making a game for those who are nostalgic about old MMOs, but like several posts here mentioned, those people are not teenagers anymore. Most of them have jobs, families... Which means they simply are not able to spend 8+ hours a day playing an MMO, grinding, etc. Obviously there are some adults who are still able to spend whole day playing the game (I've definitely seen many of them in Archeage classic).
They simply cannot be the main target audience. Or maybe they are.
Here's a thought about this.
Why did we, as young kids, grind our favorite mmos? From what've I've seen/talked about with friends - it's usually cause we were proving ourselves to others (and to ourselves as well). In an mmo you're just a random dude, so if you manage to achieve something big - that's you. You achieved that. And when you're a kid who hasn't achieved shit irl - mmos are a great place to make some achievements.
No bud, that isn’t why people play MMOs. Honestly that would be laughable to hear someone claim playing an MMO was about proving they could do something useful with their time. MMOs are played for fun.
Now think about an established, relatively successful adult with a family and shit. What and to whom do they have to prove? Unless they're so damn miserable in their real life - there's no reason for them to strive for the same achievements in game, because their irl stuff would always overshadow those pixels.
To me this sounds like the TA of Ashes ARE successful adults, who won't care about some random 0.01% trinket that drops from an epic boss, because the only thing that such a trinket would prove is that you have a lot of free time on your hands.
-
Back in late 00s I played L2 with several older dudes who were playing L2 in the exact way I described. They'd log into the game, open a beer and just chill in guild chat while grinding some mobs on the side. And they'd watch huge pvps happening near them, just as entertainment. Those dudes had wives, kids, houses, etc. They were completely satisfied with their life and the game just provided them with a group of people with a similar interest that they could talk to every day. A true social experience.
So, by your own words the target audience is older people that by choice do not engage with the majority of game systems? And that it’s not meant for time-restrictive hardcore MMO vets who want to engage with all the game’s systems, or that they’re a miserable person irl for caring about getting their mileage from the game?
No bud, that isn’t why people play MMOs. Honestly that would be laughable to hear someone claim playing an MMO was about proving they could do something useful with their time. MMOs are played for fun.
Like I said, I've spoken to friends about it, I've seen Asmon discuss it in the same vein and his chat agreeing with him and I know 100% for myself that I played L2 back when I was a kid because it allowed me to not be a kid and seem like something more in the eyes of others (especially when I started GLing while still being real young).
So maybe it wasn't that in your experience, but it was that for quite a few people.
So, by your own words the target audience is older people that by choice do not engage with the majority of game systems? And that it’s not meant for time-restrictive hardcore MMO vets who want to engage with all the game’s systems, or that they’re a miserable person irl for caring about getting their mileage from the game?
I'm saying that both contents exist in the game and can be enjoyed by their relative TAs.
Iccer said there's nothing in the game that solos/casuals can do. I listed things they can do and simply said that it's about each person's ambitions for the game. I sure as hell have seen a ton of "casuals" who are more ambitious than hardcore players, but imo that's a them problem, cause wanting something that you can't really work towards due to not having time is, well...
It's like a homeless person complaining that they're not driving a lambo, BUT THEY DEFINITELY SHOULD BE!
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Perhaps perspective from a different genre.
Music.
You could say to all the metal bands out there,"If you stop doing that go make pop music instead you could make a lot more money. Have a larger audience and be more "successful".
By your standards they should give up on what they like to go make more soulless drivel. Just for a larger audience and money.
I say no. Have the courage of your convictions! Sally forth and kick ass. Don't do it because then "people" will like you. No matter what you do someone somewhere will find fault with it. Fuck'em!
Why did we, as young kids, grind our favorite mmos? From what've I've seen/talked about with friends - it's usually cause we were proving ourselves to others (and to ourselves as well). In an mmo you're just a random dude, so if you manage to achieve something big - that's you. You achieved that. And when you're a kid who hasn't achieved shit irl - mmos are a great place to make some achievements.
No bud, that isn’t why people play MMOs. Honestly that would be laughable to hear someone claim playing an MMO was about proving they could do something useful with their time. MMOs are played for fun.
Sorry, but that’s absolutely idiotic.[/quote]
For some it is. That is how a lot of guys are wired. The thrill of competition. The fight. The chase is all that matters.
This is where the midlife crisis comes from. Guys wake up one day and find they forgot the thrill of the chase. Run off and start doing dumb shit searching for the young man they were. Buy a fast car or go sky diving for the first time.
The fight is the fun. and bragging to your friends about winning or getting stomped in OWPVP the next day is the main reason some guys even log in.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
Why did we, as young kids, grind our favorite mmos? From what've I've seen/talked about with friends - it's usually cause we were proving ourselves to others (and to ourselves as well). In an mmo you're just a random dude, so if you manage to achieve something big - that's you. You achieved that. And when you're a kid who hasn't achieved shit irl - mmos are a great place to make some achievements.
No bud, that isn’t why people play MMOs. Honestly that would be laughable to hear someone claim playing an MMO was about proving they could do something useful with their time. MMOs are played for fun.
Sorry, but that’s absolutely idiotic.
For some it is. That is how a lot of guys are wired. The thrill of competition. The fight. The chase is all that matters.
This is where the midlife crisis comes from. Guys wake up one day and find they forgot the thrill of the chase. Run off and start doing dumb shit searching for the young man they were. Buy a fast car or go sky diving for the first time.
The fight is the fun. and bragging to your friends about winning or getting stomped in OWPVP the next day is the main reason some guys even log in.
Wanting something fun to do is not ‘proving anything’. It’s competition and a social environment, but no one with a brain thinks they’re proving anything in a video game.
‘Men are hardwired to be stupid batshit idiots at 50’ is also 1) stupid as a premise 2) has nothing to do with MMOs needing to have a clear target audience to engage with all these systems they’re making
Ashes currently doesn’t have a clear audience. It’s not MMO vets, they can’t commit the time required to succeed in Ashes. It’s not the younger players that are familiar with QoL systems Ashes won’t have. It isn’t for cooperative players due to the reward structure within PvX content. We have yet to see any challenging instanced PvE for that demographic. Large scale PvP so far looks like it’ll be a zerg fest which PvP players don’t really enjoy.
So I ask again. Who is Ashes of Creation being designed for?
As your's is only yours ;-) But I'm not feeling alone with "my" opinion, man ;-)
And yet I'm the one defending group-based design So who's the alone one now
Your defending a Guild exclusive system, not a group based one. There's a big difference. Think about this; lets say you need to farm one dungeon in particular to get the mats for some set of gear. Guild 1 decides there going to farm that Dungeon for 4 hours on Thursdays, Guild 2 Wednesdays, so on till all 7 days are covered. Now what times are they going to do this? Probably the times that everyone else is on between 6-11pm they have now locked out 60% of the players on the server from ever getting that server while they farm. Not that big a deal once they all have their gear they will stop farming, except they wont because the repair system requires those materials, not to mention they can sell them on the AH.
First of all the corruption system doesn't defend anyone. A defense is a barrier between two things protecting one of those things. Corruption is a punishment system where the punishment is do the thing you were going to do anyways(grind experience). Which isn't a punishment at all. The only way your actually punished is if some other player decides to punish you, and even then there's no guarantee that you will be punished.
That's not including work arounds and trickery to circumvent the system entirely.
Why did we, as young kids, grind our favorite mmos? From what've I've seen/talked about with friends - it's usually cause we were proving ourselves to others (and to ourselves as well).
It has nothing to do with proving yourself. You were having fun, its that simple. If you were miserable and couldnt get anything done you would have quit the game in less then a month.
Back in late 00s I played L2 with several older dudes who were playing L2 in the exact way I described. They'd log into the game, open a beer and just chill in guild chat while grinding some mobs on the side. And they'd watch huge pvps happening near them, just as entertainment. Those dudes had wives, kids, houses, etc. They were completely satisfied with their life and the game just provided them with a group of people with a similar interest that they could talk to every day. A true social experience.
Yes, back when your options for social media were Facebook and MySpace, and playing games on the internet was novel that worked. Now, there are about10 times the games you can play and if you want to socialize there's about 10,000 apps to do that with.
Yes, yall definitely know other people better than those people know themselves. I'm happy that yall were so self-assured and mentally established when you were young that you didn't need to measure yourselves up against other people. All cool.
Ashes will 100% fail cause casuals and solos won't be getting rewards from bosses, especially considering that casuals and solos won't even play the game because the game has no target audience
All of that is definitely true, factual and will happen
Yes, yall definitely know other people better than those people know themselves. I'm happy that yall were so self-assured and mentally established when you were young that you didn't need to measure yourselves up against other people. All cool.
Ashes will 100% fail cause casuals and solos won't be getting rewards from bosses, especially considering that casuals and solos won't even play the game because the game has no target audience
All of that is definitely true, factual and will happen
I don’t know what mental afflictions you did or didn’t have as a teenager, but it’s irrelevant to the point at hand.
To ask again: Who is Ashes of Creation being designed for?
It’s most certainly not the people half-afk chatting over discord while they farm some basic mobs.
The alpha 1 out played GW2 and ESO.
Just because the lemmings play enmass does not make it a good game
No but it does make it a profitable. And if you want this game to stick around then you need to think about that. And if your doing 99% of the work to bring in solo and casual PvP players you should probably do that extra 1% and get their money for a while.
My only concern here is Steven presented a vision of what he wanted to make. Several thousand people said" That sounds awesome!" And we started following. Even in the early days people have tried to get them to charge it to make it "main stream".
I am not trying to make the game main stream what I personally want is a tiny corner that a lot of players will like which will have some other benefits.
This is where the midlife crisis comes from. Guys wake up one day and find they forgot the thrill of the chase. Run off and start doing dumb shit searching for the young man they were. Buy a fast car or go sky diving for the first time.
Bro, that is not what mid life crisis' are about. It's about realizing there is more living behind you then in front of you.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Why did we, as young kids, grind our favorite mmos? From what've I've seen/talked about with friends - it's usually cause we were proving ourselves to others (and to ourselves as well). In an mmo you're just a random dude, so if you manage to achieve something big - that's you. You achieved that. And when you're a kid who hasn't achieved shit irl - mmos are a great place to make some achievements.
MMORPGs aren't a grind. They are fun to play.
And I'm not trying to prove anything. I am wanting to share my character(s) with other players and see how they've chosen to build and play their characters.
No need to achieve anything big - just great to have fun playing with other people who also enjoy RPGs.
Sure, after college, when gamers have responsibilities, like jobs and families... it's more difficult to play Hardcore Time. And that make it more challenging to complete Hardcore Challenges because completing Hardcore Challenges often require Hardcore Time.
Yes, yall definitely know other people better than those people know themselves. I'm happy that yall were so self-assured and mentally established when you were young that you didn't need to measure yourselves up against other people. All cool.
Ashes will 100% fail cause casuals and solos won't be getting rewards from bosses, especially considering that casuals and solos won't even play the game because the game has no target audience
All of that is definitely true, factual and will happen
Yes you are not the unique snowflake you think you are. Human motivations are all basically the same. What changes is how you choose to fulfil those motivations. And when those two match up were basically all the same person.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Why did we, as young kids, grind our favorite mmos? From what've I've seen/talked about with friends - it's usually cause we were proving ourselves to others (and to ourselves as well). In an mmo you're just a random dude, so if you manage to achieve something big - that's you. You achieved that. And when you're a kid who hasn't achieved shit irl - mmos are a great place to make some achievements.
No bud, that isn’t why people play MMOs. Honestly that would be laughable to hear someone claim playing an MMO was about proving they could do something useful with their time. MMOs are played for fun.
Sorry, but that’s absolutely idiotic.
For some it is. That is how a lot of guys are wired. The thrill of competition. The fight. The chase is all that matters.
This is where the midlife crisis comes from. Guys wake up one day and find they forgot the thrill of the chase. Run off and start doing dumb shit searching for the young man they were. Buy a fast car or go sky diving for the first time.
The fight is the fun. and bragging to your friends about winning or getting stomped in OWPVP the next day is the main reason some guys even log in.
Wanting something fun to do is not ‘proving anything’. It’s competition and a social environment, but no one with a brain thinks they’re proving anything in a video game.
‘Men are hardwired to be stupid batshit idiots at 50’ is also 1) stupid as a premise 2) has nothing to do with MMOs needing to have a clear target audience to engage with all these systems they’re making
Ashes currently doesn’t have a clear audience. It’s not MMO vets, they can’t commit the time required to succeed in Ashes. It’s not the younger players that are familiar with QoL systems Ashes won’t have. It isn’t for cooperative players due to the reward structure within PvX content. We have yet to see any challenging instanced PvE for that demographic. Large scale PvP so far looks like it’ll be a zerg fest which PvP players don’t really enjoy.
So I ask again. Who is Ashes of Creation being designed for?
Myself and Nikr for starters.
What do you consider fun?
Cause so far everything you listed sounds fun to me.
Define a clear target audience for me?
So far we see care bears and RP people excited to get in plus all of us that like the idea as given years ago. But it seems to have drawn a wide range of people.
With how the world is laid out and the servers each server will be different. Some maybe more to your liking then you and Dygz can hang out pick flowers and do Shakespeare in the park.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The alpha 1 out played GW2 and ESO.
Just because the lemmings play enmass does not make it a good game
No but it does make it a profitable. And if you want this game to stick around then you need to think about that. And if your doing 99% of the work to bring in solo and casual PvP players you should probably do that extra 1% and get their money for a while.
My only concern here is Steven presented a vision of what he wanted to make. Several thousand people said" That sounds awesome!" And we started following. Even in the early days people have tried to get them to charge it to make it "main stream".
I am not trying to make the game main stream what I personally want is a tiny corner that a lot of players will like which will have some other benefits.
This is where the midlife crisis comes from. Guys wake up one day and find they forgot the thrill of the chase. Run off and start doing dumb shit searching for the young man they were. Buy a fast car or go sky diving for the first time.
Bro, that is not what mid life crisis' are about. It's about realizing there is more living behind you then in front of you.
Why build another?
That is a great question. I will go on a limb and say because Steven has the money and wants to.
Only.....you know because that's is his words. But hey why should a guy get to do what he wants with his money?
GW2 is a complete shit show. I tried for two weeks to like the game before I realized. This is shit and not for me. I uninstalled it and moved on.
What I didn't do was go on their forums and tell them they had to charge the game or it would fail and people wouldn't play.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
This game isn't as unique as people think it is. They just don't realize it yet.
Very few people here look at this game as being unique.
Most look at it as being similar to either L2 or Archeage, with a few other systems thrown in.
Both of those games were commercially successful, even if their popularity over time doesn't really compare to other contemporary more PvE focused games (L2 vs EQ, Archeage vs ESO - no real contest in either case, at least not in the west).
Why did we, as young kids, grind our favorite mmos? From what've I've seen/talked about with friends - it's usually cause we were proving ourselves to others (and to ourselves as well). In an mmo you're just a random dude, so if you manage to achieve something big - that's you. You achieved that. And when you're a kid who hasn't achieved shit irl - mmos are a great place to make some achievements.
No bud, that isn’t why people play MMOs. Honestly that would be laughable to hear someone claim playing an MMO was about proving they could do something useful with their time. MMOs are played for fun.
Sorry, but that’s absolutely idiotic.
For some it is. That is how a lot of guys are wired. The thrill of competition. The fight. The chase is all that matters.
This is where the midlife crisis comes from. Guys wake up one day and find they forgot the thrill of the chase. Run off and start doing dumb shit searching for the young man they were. Buy a fast car or go sky diving for the first time.
The fight is the fun. and bragging to your friends about winning or getting stomped in OWPVP the next day is the main reason some guys even log in.
Wanting something fun to do is not ‘proving anything’. It’s competition and a social environment, but no one with a brain thinks they’re proving anything in a video game.
‘Men are hardwired to be stupid batshit idiots at 50’ is also 1) stupid as a premise 2) has nothing to do with MMOs needing to have a clear target audience to engage with all these systems they’re making
Ashes currently doesn’t have a clear audience. It’s not MMO vets, they can’t commit the time required to succeed in Ashes. It’s not the younger players that are familiar with QoL systems Ashes won’t have. It isn’t for cooperative players due to the reward structure within PvX content. We have yet to see any challenging instanced PvE for that demographic. Large scale PvP so far looks like it’ll be a zerg fest which PvP players don’t really enjoy.
So I ask again. Who is Ashes of Creation being designed for?
Myself and Nikr for starters.
What do you consider fun?
Cause so far everything you listed sounds fun to me.
Define a clear target audience for me?
So far we see care bears and RP people excited to get in plus all of us that like the idea as given years ago. But it seems to have drawn a wide range of people.
With how the world is laid out and the servers each server will be different. Some maybe more to your liking then you and Dygz can hang out pick flowers and do Shakespeare in the park.
Zerg fests, unrewarding PvX systems, and a lack of difficult PvE appeal to you? I highly doubt that. Not to mention Nikr is already complaining about citizen choices (something the player has total control over) having consequences for sieges.
I enjoy objective based PvP with some permanence to the consequences, difficult PvE encounters that require a lot of skill and coordination within a group (so far have yet to see any sign this), a strong foundation for crafters to be needed at all levels of gameplay, interconnected PvX systems, and detailed world-building with game systems reflective of it.
Ashes will have a lot of this, but it will also require a high amount of time commitment to do any of it. Easiest example, many people will simply never have the option of participating in a siege because they work during the server prime time, unless they shift to a different regional server that will let them play during that time-zones prime time and suffer the increased latency.
The mechanics as they exist right now aren't conductive to getting MMO vets involved, those who have the nostalgia factor appealing to them.
The current design is structured primarily around players with copious amounts of free time. Teenagers, college students, unemployed, streamers, maybe retired folks.
Ashes isn't a game for everyone, true, but they need to then answer who the game is for. If it's for no-life'ing youngsters, then it's on the right course, but it's going to be very niche in that case, and a niche game doesn't make for '10k per server' and sustaining purely off sub costs.
Why build another?
That is a great question. I will go on a limb and say because Steven has the money and wants to.
Only.....you know because that's is his words. But hey why should a guy get to do what he wants with his money?
GW2 is a complete shit show. I tried for two weeks to like the game before I realized. This is shit and not for me. I uninstalled it and moved on.
What I didn't do was go on their forums and tell them they had to change the game or it would fail and people wouldn't play.
Yeah because making a game more niche doesn't help it succeed. What people are suggesting is make the game less niche. Making it more accessible. So when the game launches more people are satisfied or at the very least not disappointed.
Define a clear target audience for me?
So far we see care bears and RP people excited to get in plus all of us that like the idea as given years ago. But it seems to have drawn a wide range of people.
How about PvP in general with a Group focus. I.E. there will be a focus on end game PvP systems for Groups and Guilds, but there will also be stuff for Solo, RP, and Casual people to play, also based around PvP. With high difficulty PvE.
This game isn't as unique as people think it is. They just don't realize it yet.
Very few people here look at this game as being unique.
Most look at it as being similar to either L2 or Archeage, with a few other systems thrown in.
Both of those games were commercially successful, even if their popularity over time doesn't really compare to other contemporary more PvE focused games (L2 vs EQ, Archeage vs ESO - no real contest in either case, at least not in the west).
Yeah people HERE, the problem is the majority of people are not here. They came to the website because they watched a you tube video registered and left. They haven't thought about the game since, and when it launches they will buy a copy of the game without looking into it because you tuber x said it was good 3 years ago.
This game isn't as unique as people think it is. They just don't realize it yet.
Very few people here look at this game as being unique.
Most look at it as being similar to either L2 or Archeage, with a few other systems thrown in.
Both of those games were commercially successful, even if their popularity over time doesn't really compare to other contemporary more PvE focused games (L2 vs EQ, Archeage vs ESO - no real contest in either case, at least not in the west).
Yeah people HERE, the problem is the majority of people are not here. They came to the website because they watched a you tube video registered and left. They haven't thought about the game since, and when it launches they will buy a copy of the game without looking into it because you tuber x said it was good 3 years ago.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.
If people form an incorrect opinion on the game specifically because they didn't engage in discussion about the game with others, that is there fault and no one elses.
Yes, some people that put no effort in to understanding a topic usually do have a number of misconceptions about said topic. Why would we discuss anything at all about that here?
Also, you have still not answered the question - which MMORPG is it you have played where your claimed 50%+ people are unguilded? Until you answer that, I have to assume you are just another one of those people that make shit up on the internet to support the ill concieved position they have - and we know it is an ill concieved position because they find themselves needing to make shit up in order to support that position.
This game isn't as unique as people think it is. They just don't realize it yet.
Very few people here look at this game as being unique.
Most look at it as being similar to either L2 or Archeage, with a few other systems thrown in.
Both of those games were commercially successful, even if their popularity over time doesn't really compare to other contemporary more PvE focused games (L2 vs EQ, Archeage vs ESO - no real contest in either case, at least not in the west).
Yeah people HERE, the problem is the majority of people are not here. They came to the website because they watched a you tube video registered and left. They haven't thought about the game since, and when it launches they will buy a copy of the game without looking into it because you tuber x said it was good 3 years ago.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.
If people form an incorrect opinion on the game specifically because they didn't engage in discussion about the game with others, that is there fault and no one elses.
Yes, some people that put no effort in to understanding a topic usually do have a number of misconceptions about said topic. Why would we discuss anything at all about that here?
Also, you have still not answered the question - which MMORPG is it you have played where your claimed 50%+ people are unguilded? Until you answer that, I have to assume you are just another one of those people that make shit up on the internet to support the ill concieved position they have - and we know it is an ill concieved position because they find themselves needing to make shit up in order to support that position.
Will that change the fact that they will leave the game disgruntled probably leave a negative review? No it wont, and if to many people do that you get no fresh new players because no one wants to play a game with a 30% user score.
WoW (first 2 expansions), EQ2, SWtoR, WildStar, FFXIV, GW2, LotRO, The Secret World, Rift, Fallen Earth (not exactly lots of people playing this), Neverwinter, probably others that I can't remember.
Will that change the fact that they will leave the game disgruntled probably leave a negative review?
Still not sure what your point is.
Yes, there are some people that will purchase a product without understanding what that product is, find that it didn't meet their uninformed pre-concieved notion of what it should have been, be upset by the fact, and then leave a bad review.
This happens in literally every field, with literally every product. Some people just will not inform themselves, and instead will make decisions based on assumptions.
Again, no idea what your point is. It isn't as if Intrepid - or any other product developer - can or should take these people in to account.
WoW (first 2 expansions), EQ2, SWtoR, WildStar, FFXIV, GW2, LotRO, The Secret World, Rift, Fallen Earth (not exactly lots of people playing this), Neverwinter, probably others that I can't remember.
With WoW, EQ2, FFXIV, GW2, LotRO and Rift, you are objectively wrong in your claim that 50%+ of the games players are unguilded. That is the list of those games that I have first hand experience in.
The rest I am going to assume you are wrong - simply because you are wrong with every game that I have experience in, I have to assume you are wrong with those I do not, as well.
I get that if you are not in a guild, you are probably doing content that is different to those that are in a guild. As such, it may well even be that you see a higher proportion of players that are not in a guild.
However, a number of the developers of the games you have listed have actually released various statistics on their games population, including how many accounts have characters in a guild.
Your claim of 50%+ in at least one of the games you have listed above is actually less than 1% of active accounts not having an active character in a guild, according to that games own developer.
I'll leave you to find that information, if you like.
Will that change the fact that they will leave the game disgruntled probably leave a negative review?
Still not sure what your point is.
Yes, there are some people that will purchase a product without understanding what that product is, find that it didn't meet their uninformed pre-concieved notion of what it should have been, be upset by the fact, and then leave a bad review.
This happens in literally every field, with literally every product. Some people just will not inform themselves, and instead will make decisions based on assumptions.
Again, no idea what your point is. It isn't as if Intrepid - or any other product developer - can or should take these people in to account.
WoW (first 2 expansions), EQ2, SWtoR, WildStar, FFXIV, GW2, LotRO, The Secret World, Rift, Fallen Earth (not exactly lots of people playing this), Neverwinter, probably others that I can't remember.
With WoW, EQ2, FFXIV, GW2, LotRO and Rift, you are objectively wrong in your claim that 50%+ of the games players are unguilded. That is the list of those games that I have first hand experience in.
The rest I am going to assume you are wrong - simply because you are wrong with every game that I have experience in, I have to assume you are wrong with those I do not, as well.
I get that if you are not in a guild, you are probably doing content that is different to those that are in a guild. As such, it may well even be that you see a higher proportion of players that are not in a guild.
However, a number of the developers of the games you have listed have actually released various statistics on their games population, including how many accounts have characters in a guild.
Your claim of 50%+ in at least one of the games you have listed above is actually less than 1% of active accounts not having an active character in a guild, according to that games own developer.
I'll leave you to find that information, if you like.
I think the issue is not about solo or not solo. It will be possible to do many things solo and you will be solo more than 50% of the time playing like every MMO.
The issue is more about is the group content only for guilds and group of people that know each other already ?
And which part of the group content will be designed for random groups with dudes you don't know, you just met on the road ?
Some MMO are very focus on guilds. And members of a guild totally ignore the rest of the players, they communicate only together, play together and almost never invite a random guy because they have everything they need in their guild. So I guess it will depend of the design of the gameplay for Ashes.
I think the issue is not about solo or not solo. It will be possible to do many things solo and you will be solo more than 50% of the time playing like every MMO.
The issue is more about is the group content only for guilds and group of people that know each other already ?
And which part of the group content will be designed for random groups with dudes you don't know, you just met on the road ?
Some MMO are very focus on guilds. And members of a guild totally ignore the rest of the players, they communicate only together, play together and almost never invite a random guy because they have everything they need in their guild. So I guess it will depend of the design of the gameplay for Ashes.
This thread is about how little Solo players have at end game and how the various systems work against solo players, and if it was one or the other it wouldn't be an issue, but both mean solo players will end up leaving the game in droves due to all the drawbacks and none of the benefits.
Given that an MMO is based on interaction with other players, it's not surprising to leave it because you're a solo player. It's like buying a car and riding on two wheels. At some point you'll decide to buy a motorcycle.
As a mostly solo player and an Old school gamer(I have been in guilds and ran them too) I'd like to point out a few things after reading all this.
People saying that this game is guild only is ridiculous and the argument that they are giving a bonus xp to grouping is the reason why is laughable because welcome to just about every MMO! Now is there content you will need a group for of course again welcome to every MMO but I highly doubt that everyone in ashes is going to wait in a safe area until they can put together an eight man to go adventure. Especially us old guys who only have a couple hours to play after work and don't want to spend 30 mins waiting to get one going.
I have mainly soloed every game I played that's not to say that i didn't find pick up grps or other soloers when needed. Ultima Online ,DAoC (the original 8man and zerg game) ,SWG ,WoW and New World. I had fun never had a problem.
Now I figure this game is actually more solo friendly than a lot of other games i have played for one reason, top gear made by players and world events are made so anyone can join! So all I have to do to be competitive is make gold. Remember this about end game and it doesn't matter solo or grp, casual or hard core everyone will have pretty much access to similiar gear potential. So it will just come down to who's killin who and who's taking who's stuff!
Given that an MMO is based on interaction with other players, it's not surprising to leave it because you're a solo player. It's like buying a car and riding on two wheels. At some point you'll decide to buy a motorcycle.
I interact with other players all the time. You don't need to be in a group or guild to interact with players. I buy from people selling stuff. I chat in general chat. I help people if and when I can.
Comments
Cooperation and competition are both important.
Did mythic raiding in wow a few expansion back
Did wow hardcore servers . That was fun.
Before wow started handing out personal loot. We always did /roll. Main spec> off spec> greed and nobody got more then one piece of gear before everyone got a piece of gear.
Arena is not for me I find it meh. I prefer more chaos and larger battles fun like AV back in the day before it became a raid race to the boss.
Far from being the hardcore super human you think I am but thanks.
GW2 is all DPS all the time WvW is zergball vs zergball. A coworker loves that stuff and is always telling me about how he likes it. Which is great.
Can millions of people be wrong? Yes, yes they can.
Sometimes all popular opinion means, is all the fools are on the same side
Successful pvp MMO can be a very subjective thing. Are you talking about pure numbers of people playing or longevity? Several have private servers where the players rolled back the stuff the devs did that killed it.
I can't name any and I haven't looked. But I didn't go looking for them either. So that would be on you if you want to know more.
My only concern here is Steven presented a vision of what he wanted to make. Several thousand people said" That sounds awesome!" And we started following. Even in the early days people have tried to get them to charge it to make it "main stream".
The question remains if the game play style you like is out there why try to get a company to change their stated goals to match that instead of just going and doing that?
You are right about people's lives changing as time goes on. That is a good thing. Life becomes busy and commitments get in the way. Such is the way of things. Is that a good reason to take the challenge out of life and or games?
I am not even sure if Ashes will be for "Casual" - as sensitive People react to how Hardcore the Open World will be, with the Possibility of being attacked everywhere.
Good Comment. Indeed. In 10 Years much can change for many Fans who followed the Game in Development in lets say when they were around +30 Years old. And now they all approach their Fourties or "ARE" in their Fourties,
-> meaning not everyone will probably stay very long. Will they even have the time still ?
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
The problem is, they can say "this game is not for everyone" all they want, just like many people in the forums will do. They actually need to define who is it actually aimed for, and who is a part of the "not for everyone" crowd.
Because this is just vague, a lot of players will think, "oh maybe he's not talking about me, I like the idea of Ashes".
But I also understand why they DON'T do it. Because it brings them money, the game is being talked about, and keeping it vague, means more people are interested. It's in their best interest not to "alienate" a large portion of followers.
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There have been some great points raised on last page.
They are making a game for those who are nostalgic about old MMOs, but like several posts here mentioned, those people are not teenagers anymore. Most of them have jobs, families... Which means they simply are not able to spend 8+ hours a day playing an MMO, grinding, etc. Obviously there are some adults who are still able to spend whole day playing the game (I've definitely seen many of them in Archeage classic).
They simply cannot be the main target audience. Or maybe they are.
Maybe this game is just for those rich adults (like Steven himself), who have enough money to buy all sorts of packs, Alpha access, etc. Maybe it's for those that don't have a job, who can spend whole day playing the game.
Maybe, this whole game is meant for whales to have fun with, while the rest will suffer - just like most of the P2W garbage MMOs we've seen. Except, we know that it won't be P2W.
I don't want anyone to come in here now saying how I want to change the game, that "it's not for you", etc. because these are just easy copouts for people who don't want to engage in a conversation.
--
With that out of the way, let's actually talk about something.
As in most of my posts, I'd like to use Archeage as an example.
The amount of power gained by people who are no-lifing the game, hardcore players who are very efficient, and who can play for 8-10+ hours a day, is simply too much. More casual players are simply left behind massively, which in turn makes them useless in any sort of PvP. This is an issue with game's design, because of the gearing system and how much power it gives you.
We know gear in Ashes will only account for so much power (40-50%), not for most of it. But this remains to be seen and tested, because this could very much be changed before release.
By taking away power from gear, you have to put it somewhere else. Steven said the balance is focused around a party of 8. The 3rd component is skill.
The issue with this is that if the gear is 40-50% of player power, that same player who has higher gear, who is likely a hardcore player, will also have better skill, meaning they're already way ahead of your regular player in terms of power.
Balance being around a party of 8 also remains to be tested, because I simply do not know how that's going to work in the open-world stuff where you don't have a party of 8.
Again, assuming everyone will always be in a 8-man group, while playing the game, is ridiculous to me
- though I do understand why they'd want to balance stuff around groups.
This means that group content (dungeons, mass PvP) will be balanced, however anything open-world where you don't have a party of 8, instanced PvP, etc. will be unbalanced.
And everything I've talked about brings me back to this whole post/topic. How can a more solo/casual oriented player ever be anything but useless in this game, when they're being disadvantaged at every step? I mean, I've just pointed out yet another system that heavily disadvantages non-hardcore players.
Being more hardcore obviously should also bring you benefits, but not to this extent where basically you will dunk on non-hardcore players in every aspect of the game, from PvP and group content, to economy.
This is exactly my thinking as well.
I absolutely love doing group content, in a group, whether it's dungeons, world bosses, sieges, or any other PvP in general.
But I absolutely will not be doing only group content. At this moment, I just feel like I won't have enough meaningful content to do outside of group content, based on what we've seen so far.
Also, like I've mentioned previously, the game's focus is risk vs reward, yet solo/casual players are basically all risk and no reward. We should be able to choose how much risk we want to take, and then be rewarded accordingly.
I'll also just link my previous post in this thread, that expands further on my last sentence: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/469753/#Comment_469753
Overall, this just makes me feel like the game is meant for sweaty hardcore players, to compete with other sweaty hardcore players, while regular players are just there to populate the world, to make the game seem alive.
Why did we, as young kids, grind our favorite mmos? From what've I've seen/talked about with friends - it's usually cause we were proving ourselves to others (and to ourselves as well). In an mmo you're just a random dude, so if you manage to achieve something big - that's you. You achieved that. And when you're a kid who hasn't achieved shit irl - mmos are a great place to make some achievements.
Now think about an established, relatively successful adult with a family and shit. What and to whom do they have to prove? Unless they're so damn miserable in their real life - there's no reason for them to strive for the same achievements in game, because their irl stuff would always overshadow those pixels.
To me this sounds like the TA of Ashes ARE successful adults, who won't care about some random 0.01% trinket that drops from an epic boss, because the only thing that such a trinket would prove is that you have a lot of free time on your hands.
So the game has to simply be fun to play and you should have places to chill and socialize with other same dudes. And this is where this part of your comment comes in
Solos and casuals have the lowest risk.
They are defended by the corruption system.
They don't have as much invested in housing, so even if their node falls - they won't lose nearly as much as the hardcore sweats.
They're probably not as invested in node dealing, or even the node itself, as someone like me who's gonna be nolifing the game trying to become a mayor. Which means that they're free to move from node to node if they feel like it.
They have all the professions in the game to explore/try and they wouldn't care about the sweat lvls of top lvl processing requiring freeholds, cause it would take a casual player moooooonth to get even near to the top processing lvls.
Casuals have the free market, so they don't need to care about hardcore raids and their guild-related requirements, because the casual player can just chill, farm stuff at their own pace and gear up at the same pace as well. And the more market-savvy players can spend their time manipulating the markets and earn the money for better gear through that. I know several older dudes from L2 that barely even leveled their char, but were millionaires, just because they played the market well.
There's gonna be countless casual and solo friendly guilds out there that will not require anything from the player and will just be a social hub that make partying up easier (I will make one for my node and will be helping anyone who needs helping).
All of that will be in the game, all while sweaties are fighting each other for bosses and castles and are waking up in the middle of the night cause the raid's respawn timer randomed slightly later than it should've. So it all simply comes down to what those older players are looking for. If they're looking for the same experience as they had when they were a kid - that's just a fantasy that would never come true even if Intrepid presented them bosses on a silver platter (which, btw, story bosses will be; literally instanced for your pleasure).
But if your irl is good - you can just log in and chill in a game with other older dudes and enjoy the vibes. And yes, I know, you could pretty much do the same in any other mmo, but how many of those have the same kind of living and changing world that Ashes will supposedly have? What other game could change in one night, where you login the next evening and realize that an entire "kingdom" has fallen apart and there's utter panic going on.
Back in late 00s I played L2 with several older dudes who were playing L2 in the exact way I described. They'd log into the game, open a beer and just chill in guild chat while grinding some mobs on the side. And they'd watch huge pvps happening near them, just as entertainment. Those dudes had wives, kids, houses, etc. They were completely satisfied with their life and the game just provided them with a group of people with a similar interest that they could talk to every day. A true social experience.
So, by your own words the target audience is older people that by choice do not engage with the majority of game systems? And that it’s not meant for time-restrictive hardcore MMO vets who want to engage with all the game’s systems, or that they’re a miserable person irl for caring about getting their mileage from the game?
Sorry, but that’s absolutely idiotic.
So maybe it wasn't that in your experience, but it was that for quite a few people.
I'm saying that both contents exist in the game and can be enjoyed by their relative TAs.
Iccer said there's nothing in the game that solos/casuals can do. I listed things they can do and simply said that it's about each person's ambitions for the game. I sure as hell have seen a ton of "casuals" who are more ambitious than hardcore players, but imo that's a them problem, cause wanting something that you can't really work towards due to not having time is, well...
It's like a homeless person complaining that they're not driving a lambo, BUT THEY DEFINITELY SHOULD BE!
Music.
You could say to all the metal bands out there,"If you stop doing that go make pop music instead you could make a lot more money. Have a larger audience and be more "successful".
By your standards they should give up on what they like to go make more soulless drivel. Just for a larger audience and money.
I say no. Have the courage of your convictions! Sally forth and kick ass. Don't do it because then "people" will like you. No matter what you do someone somewhere will find fault with it. Fuck'em!
Stay Determined Steven...Stay determined.
Sorry, but that’s absolutely idiotic.[/quote]
For some it is. That is how a lot of guys are wired. The thrill of competition. The fight. The chase is all that matters.
This is where the midlife crisis comes from. Guys wake up one day and find they forgot the thrill of the chase. Run off and start doing dumb shit searching for the young man they were. Buy a fast car or go sky diving for the first time.
The fight is the fun. and bragging to your friends about winning or getting stomped in OWPVP the next day is the main reason some guys even log in.
Wanting something fun to do is not ‘proving anything’. It’s competition and a social environment, but no one with a brain thinks they’re proving anything in a video game.
‘Men are hardwired to be stupid batshit idiots at 50’ is also 1) stupid as a premise 2) has nothing to do with MMOs needing to have a clear target audience to engage with all these systems they’re making
Ashes currently doesn’t have a clear audience. It’s not MMO vets, they can’t commit the time required to succeed in Ashes. It’s not the younger players that are familiar with QoL systems Ashes won’t have. It isn’t for cooperative players due to the reward structure within PvX content. We have yet to see any challenging instanced PvE for that demographic. Large scale PvP so far looks like it’ll be a zerg fest which PvP players don’t really enjoy.
So I ask again. Who is Ashes of Creation being designed for?
Your defending a Guild exclusive system, not a group based one. There's a big difference. Think about this; lets say you need to farm one dungeon in particular to get the mats for some set of gear. Guild 1 decides there going to farm that Dungeon for 4 hours on Thursdays, Guild 2 Wednesdays, so on till all 7 days are covered. Now what times are they going to do this? Probably the times that everyone else is on between 6-11pm they have now locked out 60% of the players on the server from ever getting that server while they farm. Not that big a deal once they all have their gear they will stop farming, except they wont because the repair system requires those materials, not to mention they can sell them on the AH.
First of all the corruption system doesn't defend anyone. A defense is a barrier between two things protecting one of those things. Corruption is a punishment system where the punishment is do the thing you were going to do anyways(grind experience). Which isn't a punishment at all. The only way your actually punished is if some other player decides to punish you, and even then there's no guarantee that you will be punished.
That's not including work arounds and trickery to circumvent the system entirely.
It has nothing to do with proving yourself. You were having fun, its that simple. If you were miserable and couldnt get anything done you would have quit the game in less then a month.
Yes, back when your options for social media were Facebook and MySpace, and playing games on the internet was novel that worked. Now, there are about10 times the games you can play and if you want to socialize there's about 10,000 apps to do that with.
Ashes will 100% fail cause casuals and solos won't be getting rewards from bosses, especially considering that casuals and solos won't even play the game because the game has no target audience
All of that is definitely true, factual and will happen
I don’t know what mental afflictions you did or didn’t have as a teenager, but it’s irrelevant to the point at hand.
To ask again: Who is Ashes of Creation being designed for?
It’s most certainly not the people half-afk chatting over discord while they farm some basic mobs.
If Hardcore PvP games that allow guilds to dominate why build another one?
I can say the same thing and it still applies. This game isn't as unique as people think it is. They just don't realize it yet.
No but it does make it a profitable. And if you want this game to stick around then you need to think about that. And if your doing 99% of the work to bring in solo and casual PvP players you should probably do that extra 1% and get their money for a while.
And I'm not trying to prove anything. I am wanting to share my character(s) with other players and see how they've chosen to build and play their characters.
No need to achieve anything big - just great to have fun playing with other people who also enjoy RPGs.
Sure, after college, when gamers have responsibilities, like jobs and families... it's more difficult to play Hardcore Time. And that make it more challenging to complete Hardcore Challenges because completing Hardcore Challenges often require Hardcore Time.
Yes you are not the unique snowflake you think you are. Human motivations are all basically the same. What changes is how you choose to fulfil those motivations. And when those two match up were basically all the same person.
Myself and Nikr for starters.
What do you consider fun?
Cause so far everything you listed sounds fun to me.
Define a clear target audience for me?
So far we see care bears and RP people excited to get in plus all of us that like the idea as given years ago. But it seems to have drawn a wide range of people.
With how the world is laid out and the servers each server will be different. Some maybe more to your liking then you and Dygz can hang out pick flowers and do Shakespeare in the park.
Most look at it as being similar to either L2 or Archeage, with a few other systems thrown in.
Both of those games were commercially successful, even if their popularity over time doesn't really compare to other contemporary more PvE focused games (L2 vs EQ, Archeage vs ESO - no real contest in either case, at least not in the west).
Zerg fests, unrewarding PvX systems, and a lack of difficult PvE appeal to you? I highly doubt that. Not to mention Nikr is already complaining about citizen choices (something the player has total control over) having consequences for sieges.
I enjoy objective based PvP with some permanence to the consequences, difficult PvE encounters that require a lot of skill and coordination within a group (so far have yet to see any sign this), a strong foundation for crafters to be needed at all levels of gameplay, interconnected PvX systems, and detailed world-building with game systems reflective of it.
Ashes will have a lot of this, but it will also require a high amount of time commitment to do any of it. Easiest example, many people will simply never have the option of participating in a siege because they work during the server prime time, unless they shift to a different regional server that will let them play during that time-zones prime time and suffer the increased latency.
The mechanics as they exist right now aren't conductive to getting MMO vets involved, those who have the nostalgia factor appealing to them.
The current design is structured primarily around players with copious amounts of free time. Teenagers, college students, unemployed, streamers, maybe retired folks.
Ashes isn't a game for everyone, true, but they need to then answer who the game is for. If it's for no-life'ing youngsters, then it's on the right course, but it's going to be very niche in that case, and a niche game doesn't make for '10k per server' and sustaining purely off sub costs.
Yeah because making a game more niche doesn't help it succeed. What people are suggesting is make the game less niche. Making it more accessible. So when the game launches more people are satisfied or at the very least not disappointed.
How about PvP in general with a Group focus. I.E. there will be a focus on end game PvP systems for Groups and Guilds, but there will also be stuff for Solo, RP, and Casual people to play, also based around PvP. With high difficulty PvE.
Yeah people HERE, the problem is the majority of people are not here. They came to the website because they watched a you tube video registered and left. They haven't thought about the game since, and when it launches they will buy a copy of the game without looking into it because you tuber x said it was good 3 years ago.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.
If people form an incorrect opinion on the game specifically because they didn't engage in discussion about the game with others, that is there fault and no one elses.
Yes, some people that put no effort in to understanding a topic usually do have a number of misconceptions about said topic. Why would we discuss anything at all about that here?
Also, you have still not answered the question - which MMORPG is it you have played where your claimed 50%+ people are unguilded? Until you answer that, I have to assume you are just another one of those people that make shit up on the internet to support the ill concieved position they have - and we know it is an ill concieved position because they find themselves needing to make shit up in order to support that position.
Will that change the fact that they will leave the game disgruntled probably leave a negative review? No it wont, and if to many people do that you get no fresh new players because no one wants to play a game with a 30% user score.
WoW (first 2 expansions), EQ2, SWtoR, WildStar, FFXIV, GW2, LotRO, The Secret World, Rift, Fallen Earth (not exactly lots of people playing this), Neverwinter, probably others that I can't remember.
Still not sure what your point is.
Yes, there are some people that will purchase a product without understanding what that product is, find that it didn't meet their uninformed pre-concieved notion of what it should have been, be upset by the fact, and then leave a bad review.
This happens in literally every field, with literally every product. Some people just will not inform themselves, and instead will make decisions based on assumptions.
Again, no idea what your point is. It isn't as if Intrepid - or any other product developer - can or should take these people in to account.
With WoW, EQ2, FFXIV, GW2, LotRO and Rift, you are objectively wrong in your claim that 50%+ of the games players are unguilded. That is the list of those games that I have first hand experience in.
The rest I am going to assume you are wrong - simply because you are wrong with every game that I have experience in, I have to assume you are wrong with those I do not, as well.
I get that if you are not in a guild, you are probably doing content that is different to those that are in a guild. As such, it may well even be that you see a higher proportion of players that are not in a guild.
However, a number of the developers of the games you have listed have actually released various statistics on their games population, including how many accounts have characters in a guild.
Your claim of 50%+ in at least one of the games you have listed above is actually less than 1% of active accounts not having an active character in a guild, according to that games own developer.
I'll leave you to find that information, if you like.
The way you did?
The issue is more about is the group content only for guilds and group of people that know each other already ?
And which part of the group content will be designed for random groups with dudes you don't know, you just met on the road ?
Some MMO are very focus on guilds. And members of a guild totally ignore the rest of the players, they communicate only together, play together and almost never invite a random guy because they have everything they need in their guild. So I guess it will depend of the design of the gameplay for Ashes.
This thread is about how little Solo players have at end game and how the various systems work against solo players, and if it was one or the other it wouldn't be an issue, but both mean solo players will end up leaving the game in droves due to all the drawbacks and none of the benefits.
People saying that this game is guild only is ridiculous and the argument that they are giving a bonus xp to grouping is the reason why is laughable because welcome to just about every MMO! Now is there content you will need a group for of course again welcome to every MMO but I highly doubt that everyone in ashes is going to wait in a safe area until they can put together an eight man to go adventure. Especially us old guys who only have a couple hours to play after work and don't want to spend 30 mins waiting to get one going.
I have mainly soloed every game I played that's not to say that i didn't find pick up grps or other soloers when needed. Ultima Online ,DAoC (the original 8man and zerg game) ,SWG ,WoW and New World. I had fun never had a problem.
Now I figure this game is actually more solo friendly than a lot of other games i have played for one reason, top gear made by players and world events are made so anyone can join! So all I have to do to be competitive is make gold. Remember this about end game and it doesn't matter solo or grp, casual or hard core everyone will have pretty much access to similiar gear potential. So it will just come down to who's killin who and who's taking who's stuff!
I interact with other players all the time. You don't need to be in a group or guild to interact with players. I buy from people selling stuff. I chat in general chat. I help people if and when I can.