EQ
EQ2
WoW
Rift
Archeage
Age of Conan
DDO
LotRO
STO
GW2
BDO
EvE
I've played other, but that is enough.
I can add L2 to this as well. Unguilded players would be pretty much unheard of, unless they were in-between guilds for a bit. And even then, they usually wouldn't be solo and would be in some kind of a constant party, which would be in the search of a guild.
If solo players have no expectation that a game built around 8-man groups is going to cater to them, then there is no problem for solo players.
How do you define a solo player?
For me is one who can group with randoms every day but just wants to avoid guilds.
People who really do not want to group at all need different kind of games.
I did not strawman anything. I asked a simple yes or no question and rather then just saying yes and agreeing to something that is just a basic fact about people, you spouted off a bunch of things which have nothing to do with anything I said.
I gave you a clear answer: I know that Intrepid makes mistakes and if you cant even filter that from 13 words, how are we to discuss complexer systems than that?
Do any of the things you stated prevent the Devs from making a mistake? No, they don't. Did I ever claim any of those things, no I haven't, in fact I have said the opposite. So who is committing the strawman fallacy here?
What are "those things"? You want to discuss this, be specific.
So now let's look at a couple of the reasons why the devs might make a mistake. The node system is completely new and has never been implemented in a MMORPG before.
True, the system hasn't been tested yet, but this is not an issue for solo players, because they are not meant to be the focus group - groups and guilds are. If solo players are lucky, the system will provide them with opportunities to gruadually move into what the package of the game says: This is a group focused MMORPG.
The gathering system operates different then any other game due to the materials shifting around the world and disappearing entirely some times.
The loss of resources has been present in games before and Steven is on record taking inspiration from games where stuff wasn't globally available through auction houses but instead have to be moved around. As for certain resources being available only during certain seasons: That doesn't seem to be a problem unless these resources are necessary for everyone to have and no alternatives exist. And if that were the case thats just an overall issue, not a single player issue.
And as I pointed out in very beginning of my OP if your going to make a game difficult then you want the class system to as fun as possible as early as possible. Because it's the only system you know 100% of the player base will interact with.
And what makes the class system not fun? Do you think the Archetypes are badly designed? Do you doubt the meaningfulness of the augment system?
Again, because that is what I've been saying in my first comment: The timing is just odd. 7 years of archetype development and 8x8 class design plus a promise to make the system in the 8x8 pattern - If you want anyone to take this serious "It could be a problem" will not suffice, people will just shrug their shoulders and wait a few weeks until they can test the systems and provide ACTUAL feedback
Anyhow without stretching this discussion into the infinite: Yes there is a problem for solo players: They are trying to play a multiplayer game alone and Intrepid (rightfully) does not intend to cater to them at the cost of social group gameplay.
So the problem solo players need to fix is themselves, being solo - make some friends.
Good plan tell 70% of the MMO population pass on this game.
Not every player who has a preference for solo gameplay is as much of a sour grape as you.
Many of those 70% might enjoy the playstyle of WoW, or whatever other solo-friendly MMO, for now, because it's what has worked so far - but would be perfectly willing to adjust their expectations and behaviours in order to fit into a game where the priorities and demands are different, and change the way they play, if they find that this new gameplay loop is also enjoyable.
As for the rest, yes.
Yes, it is a fantastic idea to tell them to pass on this game.
All the reasons why WoW is such a boring soulless themepark filled with dailies and grind quests and arenas instead of anything of substance can be traced back to its attempt of appealing to everyone:
Where comfort and convenience are cranked up to the max.
And where communication and finding people whose playstyles you agree with is entirely optional, and grouping is streamlined without any social interaction required.
Ashes doesn't make this mistake.
Ashes is for players who are willing to combine PvP and PvE challenges,
who are willing to compete for high rewards at high risks and accept the setback when other players beat them to the objective,
and who care about building a world where their contribution alters the way the world looks, and what happens in it.
The rest can go play WoW, FFXIV and ESO, instead of disappointing themselves with something that wasn't made to appeal to their demands for a solo play theme park LFG lobby.
Well this is progress of a sort.
Implying what?
You didn't insult me or put words in my mouth. Which most of the posters do.
And I am punished with no response? =P
There isn't much to respond to. I agree with most of the post.
But I would caution you that if you don't create a way for new players to join the community then you only have empty servers to look forward to.
The way for a group-focused game to appeal to new players is to make the group-focused gameplay fun, not to offer more avenues to succeed without other players/guilds.
No it's not. If you want someone to change what there accustomed to you have to do it slowly, if the change is too fast then people will resist the change. People like what they like. If however what you do is create systems that create positive interactions between solo players and guilds that allows them to build up a reputation with each other so the guild knows they are getting a person they want in their guild and the person knows it's the kind of guild they want to be in. That is how, don't force them, convert them.
Your post is just suggesting that no solo-player is going to stay long enough to benefit from these avenues because they'll be too indignant about not having enough of an impact and not getting good enough rewards on their own to feel powerful.
But there we are talking about players who get frustrated at their own power while trying to force a playstyle onto a game that isn't meant to be successful in that game. If you give those players the power they demand, you're no longer just making the game enticing to them. You're changing the game into the game they want to play, so they'll stick around. And then, even if some of those players discover the joy of social gameplay as the default, you still don't have the game Intrepid wanted to make anymore, you just have WoW Light with some extra features. If that's what those players need, they should kick Blizzard (or insert themepark developer of your choice) to their asses to get it, not try to make Ashes something it isn't supposed to be.
The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
How do you define a solo player?
For me is one who can group with randoms every day but just wants to avoid guilds.
People who really do not want to group at all need different kind of games.
A Solo player is one who tends to Adventure while not mechanically joined to a Group.
Player characters who belong to Guilds can Solo.
If solo players have no expectation that a game built around 8-man groups is going to cater to them, then there is no problem for solo players.
How do you define a solo player?
For me is one who can group with randoms every day but just wants to avoid guilds.
People who really do not want to group at all need different kind of games.
I don't think you two disagree, not even to the tiniest extent.
Both definitions of "solo player" make some sense:
The one who doesn't want to be associated with a guild (they might even still be in one for practical sakes, but they certainly won't spend most of their game time with them or follow demanding guild policies) but is willing to play in ad-hoc groups of players consistently for 60+% of their game time if necessary (let's call them "liberty seekers");
And the one who may or may not join a guild, but spends 60%+ of their time not surrounded by other people of any affiliation, aside perhaps from enemies in 1v1s (let's call them misanthropes, antisocial "hermits/loners/introverts".)
CROW3's arguing specifically against hermits, because they're the only ones who really face the brunt of negative downsides of trying to play Ashes the way they want to, and being disappointed if the game's reward scheme doesn't cater to them.
Discussing the liberty seeker playstyle doesn't make a lot of sense, because they don't disagree much with Ashes's requirements in the first place.
Sure, there will be some advantages they won't have that active members of rigorously coordinated guilds will get, but they can still play the game and see the respectable fruit of their efforts.
The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
EQ
EQ2
WoW
Rift
Archeage
Age of Conan
DDO
LotRO
STO
GW2
BDO
EvE
I've played other, but that is enough.
I can add L2 to this as well. Unguilded players would be pretty much unheard of, unless they were in-between guilds for a bit. And even then, they usually wouldn't be solo and would be in some kind of a constant party, which would be in the search of a guild.
I can't say I am surprised at all by this - though I didn't want to assume it to be the case.
So the problem solo players need to fix is themselves, being solo - make some friends.
Good plan tell 70% of the MMO population pass on this game.
Not every player who has a preference for solo gameplay is as much of a sour grape as you.
Many of those 70% might enjoy the playstyle of WoW, or whatever other solo-friendly MMO, for now, because it's what has worked so far - but would be perfectly willing to adjust their expectations and behaviours in order to fit into a game where the priorities and demands are different, and change the way they play, if they find that this new gameplay loop is also enjoyable.
As for the rest, yes.
Yes, it is a fantastic idea to tell them to pass on this game.
All the reasons why WoW is such a boring soulless themepark filled with dailies and grind quests and arenas instead of anything of substance can be traced back to its attempt of appealing to everyone:
Where comfort and convenience are cranked up to the max.
And where communication and finding people whose playstyles you agree with is entirely optional, and grouping is streamlined without any social interaction required.
Ashes doesn't make this mistake.
Ashes is for players who are willing to combine PvP and PvE challenges,
who are willing to compete for high rewards at high risks and accept the setback when other players beat them to the objective,
and who care about building a world where their contribution alters the way the world looks, and what happens in it.
The rest can go play WoW, FFXIV and ESO, instead of disappointing themselves with something that wasn't made to appeal to their demands for a solo play theme park LFG lobby.
Well this is progress of a sort.
Implying what?
You didn't insult me or put words in my mouth. Which most of the posters do.
And I am punished with no response? =P
There isn't much to respond to. I agree with most of the post.
But I would caution you that if you don't create a way for new players to join the community then you only have empty servers to look forward to.
The way for a group-focused game to appeal to new players is to make the group-focused gameplay fun, not to offer more avenues to succeed without other players/guilds.
No it's not. If you want someone to change what there accustomed to you have to do it slowly, if the change is too fast then people will resist the change. People like what they like. If however what you do is create systems that create positive interactions between solo players and guilds that allows them to build up a reputation with each other so the guild knows they are getting a person they want in their guild and the person knows it's the kind of guild they want to be in. That is how, don't force them, convert them.
Or
Do something similar to what GW1 did.
Everyone started solo. Then there was a 2 player quest. That moved into a small group skirmish (don't remember if it was 2v2 or 4v4). Then they moved players into larger groups organically.
This might have been the best mechanism in the game. The rest wasn't terrible but it helped new players acclimate to larger groups as they played the main story.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
I gave you a clear answer: I know that Intrepid makes mistakes and if you cant even filter that from 13 words, how are we to discuss more complex systems than that?
Just so I understand this right: The entirety of Intrepid, a studio full of veteran MMORPG players themselves with the additional experience of being game designers for years if not decades, ALL overlooked as you said it "way larger problems" in almost all its core systems and you have figured it out despite only having joined something like 2 months ago? With all due respect despite the fact that Intrepid obviously is not perfect and on point with each of its decisions, that sounds to me like you are just quite full of yourself even though nothing indicates that you are either knowledgeable about the project or game development.
First of all there are 113 words there not 13. Second of all the first 65 words are you making a reductio ad absurdum argument in direct reference to me asking you "Do you think the devs can make a mistake". That tells me you don't think the devs can make mistakes.
The next 35 words of that paragraph are you saying "Intrepid obviously is not perfect" which isn't what I asked about. I asked specifically "Do you think the devs can make a mistake?" If you think that was a "clear answer" then you are very wrong. You said "Intrepid" at no point did I refer to the entire studio
If you wanted to give a clear answer it should look something like this; "Yes I agree that the devs can make a mistake." Then after that say whatever else you want. Use the same language because it's possible for intrepid to not be perfect, and the devs to not make a mistake.
The game does not punish solo players it rewards grouping up.
I don't know. In a game that touts Risk vs Reward as a "Pillar" then proceeds to give people bonuses for making decisions that are inherently less risky and gives nothing to people that are doing something more risky I would say that's a punishment.
They are literally breaking their own pillar by NOT giving solo players something for soloing in the game.
I gave you a clear answer: I know that Intrepid makes mistakes and if you cant even filter that from 13 words, how are we to discuss more complex systems than that?
Just so I understand this right: The entirety of Intrepid, a studio full of veteran MMORPG players themselves with the additional experience of being game designers for years if not decades, ALL overlooked as you said it "way larger problems" in almost all its core systems and you have figured it out despite only having joined something like 2 months ago? With all due respect despite the fact that Intrepid obviously is not perfect and on point with each of its decisions, that sounds to me like you are just quite full of yourself even though nothing indicates that you are either knowledgeable about the project or game development.
First of all there are 113 words there not 13. Second of all the first 65 words are you making a reductio ad absurdum argument in direct reference to me asking you "Do you think the devs can make a mistake". That tells me you don't think the devs can make mistakes.
The next 35 words of that paragraph are you saying "Intrepid obviously is not perfect" which isn't what I asked about. I asked specifically "Do you think the devs can make a mistake?" If you think that was a "clear answer" then you are very wrong. You said "Intrepid" at no point did I refer to the entire studio
If you wanted to give a clear answer it should look something like this; "Yes I agree that the devs can make a mistake." Then after that say whatever else you want. Use the same language because it's possible for intrepid to not be perfect, and the devs to not make a mistake.
So the problem solo players need to fix is themselves, being solo - make some friends.
Good plan tell 70% of the MMO population pass on this game.
Not every player who has a preference for solo gameplay is as much of a sour grape as you.
Many of those 70% might enjoy the playstyle of WoW, or whatever other solo-friendly MMO, for now, because it's what has worked so far - but would be perfectly willing to adjust their expectations and behaviours in order to fit into a game where the priorities and demands are different, and change the way they play, if they find that this new gameplay loop is also enjoyable.
As for the rest, yes.
Yes, it is a fantastic idea to tell them to pass on this game.
All the reasons why WoW is such a boring soulless themepark filled with dailies and grind quests and arenas instead of anything of substance can be traced back to its attempt of appealing to everyone:
Where comfort and convenience are cranked up to the max.
And where communication and finding people whose playstyles you agree with is entirely optional, and grouping is streamlined without any social interaction required.
Ashes doesn't make this mistake.
Ashes is for players who are willing to combine PvP and PvE challenges,
who are willing to compete for high rewards at high risks and accept the setback when other players beat them to the objective,
and who care about building a world where their contribution alters the way the world looks, and what happens in it.
The rest can go play WoW, FFXIV and ESO, instead of disappointing themselves with something that wasn't made to appeal to their demands for a solo play theme park LFG lobby.
Well this is progress of a sort.
Implying what?
You didn't insult me or put words in my mouth. Which most of the posters do.
And I am punished with no response? =P
There isn't much to respond to. I agree with most of the post.
But I would caution you that if you don't create a way for new players to join the community then you only have empty servers to look forward to.
The way for a group-focused game to appeal to new players is to make the group-focused gameplay fun, not to offer more avenues to succeed without other players/guilds.
No it's not. If you want someone to change what there accustomed to you have to do it slowly, if the change is too fast then people will resist the change. People like what they like. If however what you do is create systems that create positive interactions between solo players and guilds that allows them to build up a reputation with each other so the guild knows they are getting a person they want in their guild and the person knows it's the kind of guild they want to be in. That is how, don't force them, convert them.
Or
Do something similar to what GW1 did.
Everyone started solo. Then there was a 2 player quest. That moved into a small group skirmish (don't remember if it was 2v2 or 4v4). Then they moved players into larger groups organically.
This might have been the best mechanism in the game. The rest wasn't terrible but it helped new players acclimate to larger groups as they played the main story.
No because again this forces people to group, and you don't want to do that.
So the problem solo players need to fix is themselves, being solo - make some friends.
Good plan tell 70% of the MMO population pass on this game.
Not every player who has a preference for solo gameplay is as much of a sour grape as you.
Many of those 70% might enjoy the playstyle of WoW, or whatever other solo-friendly MMO, for now, because it's what has worked so far - but would be perfectly willing to adjust their expectations and behaviours in order to fit into a game where the priorities and demands are different, and change the way they play, if they find that this new gameplay loop is also enjoyable.
As for the rest, yes.
Yes, it is a fantastic idea to tell them to pass on this game.
All the reasons why WoW is such a boring soulless themepark filled with dailies and grind quests and arenas instead of anything of substance can be traced back to its attempt of appealing to everyone:
Where comfort and convenience are cranked up to the max.
And where communication and finding people whose playstyles you agree with is entirely optional, and grouping is streamlined without any social interaction required.
Ashes doesn't make this mistake.
Ashes is for players who are willing to combine PvP and PvE challenges,
who are willing to compete for high rewards at high risks and accept the setback when other players beat them to the objective,
and who care about building a world where their contribution alters the way the world looks, and what happens in it.
The rest can go play WoW, FFXIV and ESO, instead of disappointing themselves with something that wasn't made to appeal to their demands for a solo play theme park LFG lobby.
Well this is progress of a sort.
Implying what?
You didn't insult me or put words in my mouth. Which most of the posters do.
And I am punished with no response? =P
There isn't much to respond to. I agree with most of the post.
But I would caution you that if you don't create a way for new players to join the community then you only have empty servers to look forward to.
The way for a group-focused game to appeal to new players is to make the group-focused gameplay fun, not to offer more avenues to succeed without other players/guilds.
No it's not. If you want someone to change what there accustomed to you have to do it slowly, if the change is too fast then people will resist the change. People like what they like. If however what you do is create systems that create positive interactions between solo players and guilds that allows them to build up a reputation with each other so the guild knows they are getting a person they want in their guild and the person knows it's the kind of guild they want to be in. That is how, don't force them, convert them.
Or
Do something similar to what GW1 did.
Everyone started solo. Then there was a 2 player quest. That moved into a small group skirmish (don't remember if it was 2v2 or 4v4). Then they moved players into larger groups organically.
This might have been the best mechanism in the game. The rest wasn't terrible but it helped new players acclimate to larger groups as they played the main story.
No because again this forces people to group, and you don't want to do that.
At this point you need to realize that Ashes fundamentally not for players like you who want to run it solo. You’ll need a group for efficient crafting, you’ll need one for raiding, for PvPing, and even for some areas of grinding.
To ask for solo-friendly content is to ask for a different game.
Make some friends and start a little guild or something, but you can’t be successful in a MMO on your own. That’s by design and how it should be.
2
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Solo players are not particularly interested in being uber-efficient.
5
scottstone7Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I’m going to be honest, I stopped reading that wall of whine after the first paragraph. This is an MMO RPG, not a single player RPG. It’s designed for group play because that’s what most people want. You can pull whatever numbers out of your backside that you want, it’s not going to change the fact. MMO’s became a thing because people wanted online group interactions in games. If that’s not you that’s okay, you can solo things too. Sure, it’s going to take you longer, that’s not the fault of anyone but you. Don’t like it? Join a guild or make a regular group of friends in game or not to play with. Whining that it’s not fair that the group of 6 over there can kill things way faster more often and more efficiently than you can solo is not the answer. Whining that you are constantly being killed by other players, which the corruption system should help curb, is not the answer. Are you going to be killed by other players for your stuff, simple answer is yes. Are you going to be more of a target if you choose not to be in a guild, again yes. Is leveling faster and acquiring higher end stuff sooner going to be harder for you? Yes. Whose fault is that? I can tell you 100% for sure it’s not the players that do choose to be in guilds, it’s your fault for making things harder for yourself. That’s the whole risk versus reward thing. Do you have to join a guild or a regular group? No. Will it make things easier for you if you do? Yes.
Think of it like this. You want to build a new house in the real world. Are you going to do it solo? That would be extremely difficult and very time-consuming, not to mention weather and/or vandalism can and will most likely set you back. After you gather all the resources and even start building it will take you a minimum of months to complete that house not including the weather/vandalism damage. Are you then going to whine and complain that companies that use teams of people to do the same thing in a fraction of the time it’s taking you? Wait… Is your name Karen by chance?
So the problem solo players need to fix is themselves, being solo - make some friends.
Good plan tell 70% of the MMO population pass on this game.
Not every player who has a preference for solo gameplay is as much of a sour grape as you.
Many of those 70% might enjoy the playstyle of WoW, or whatever other solo-friendly MMO, for now, because it's what has worked so far - but would be perfectly willing to adjust their expectations and behaviours in order to fit into a game where the priorities and demands are different, and change the way they play, if they find that this new gameplay loop is also enjoyable.
As for the rest, yes.
Yes, it is a fantastic idea to tell them to pass on this game.
All the reasons why WoW is such a boring soulless themepark filled with dailies and grind quests and arenas instead of anything of substance can be traced back to its attempt of appealing to everyone:
Where comfort and convenience are cranked up to the max.
And where communication and finding people whose playstyles you agree with is entirely optional, and grouping is streamlined without any social interaction required.
Ashes doesn't make this mistake.
Ashes is for players who are willing to combine PvP and PvE challenges,
who are willing to compete for high rewards at high risks and accept the setback when other players beat them to the objective,
and who care about building a world where their contribution alters the way the world looks, and what happens in it.
The rest can go play WoW, FFXIV and ESO, instead of disappointing themselves with something that wasn't made to appeal to their demands for a solo play theme park LFG lobby.
Well this is progress of a sort.
Implying what?
You didn't insult me or put words in my mouth. Which most of the posters do.
And I am punished with no response? =P
There isn't much to respond to. I agree with most of the post.
But I would caution you that if you don't create a way for new players to join the community then you only have empty servers to look forward to.
The way for a group-focused game to appeal to new players is to make the group-focused gameplay fun, not to offer more avenues to succeed without other players/guilds.
No it's not. If you want someone to change what there accustomed to you have to do it slowly, if the change is too fast then people will resist the change. People like what they like. If however what you do is create systems that create positive interactions between solo players and guilds that allows them to build up a reputation with each other so the guild knows they are getting a person they want in their guild and the person knows it's the kind of guild they want to be in. That is how, don't force them, convert them.
Your post is just suggesting that no solo-player is going to stay long enough to benefit from these avenues because they'll be too indignant about not having enough of an impact and not getting good enough rewards on their own to feel powerful.
But there we are talking about players who get frustrated at their own power while trying to force a playstyle onto a game that isn't meant to be successful in that game. If you give those players the power they demand, you're no longer just making the game enticing to them. You're changing the game into the game they want to play, so they'll stick around. And then, even if some of those players discover the joy of social gameplay as the default, you still don't have the game Intrepid wanted to make anymore, you just have WoW Light with some extra features. If that's what those players need, they should kick Blizzard (or insert themepark developer of your choice) to their asses to get it, not try to make Ashes something it isn't supposed to be.
Did you actually read either of those? The first one is there will be quests in the game, which yeah it's a fantasy game. The second is the section I linked in the OP literally says quests and "hunting grounds" which again yeah quests and areas where you don't need a group
0
bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So the problem solo players need to fix is themselves, being solo - make some friends.
Good plan tell 70% of the MMO population pass on this game.
Not every player who has a preference for solo gameplay is as much of a sour grape as you.
Many of those 70% might enjoy the playstyle of WoW, or whatever other solo-friendly MMO, for now, because it's what has worked so far - but would be perfectly willing to adjust their expectations and behaviours in order to fit into a game where the priorities and demands are different, and change the way they play, if they find that this new gameplay loop is also enjoyable.
As for the rest, yes.
Yes, it is a fantastic idea to tell them to pass on this game.
All the reasons why WoW is such a boring soulless themepark filled with dailies and grind quests and arenas instead of anything of substance can be traced back to its attempt of appealing to everyone:
Where comfort and convenience are cranked up to the max.
And where communication and finding people whose playstyles you agree with is entirely optional, and grouping is streamlined without any social interaction required.
Ashes doesn't make this mistake.
Ashes is for players who are willing to combine PvP and PvE challenges,
who are willing to compete for high rewards at high risks and accept the setback when other players beat them to the objective,
and who care about building a world where their contribution alters the way the world looks, and what happens in it.
The rest can go play WoW, FFXIV and ESO, instead of disappointing themselves with something that wasn't made to appeal to their demands for a solo play theme park LFG lobby.
Well this is progress of a sort.
Implying what?
You didn't insult me or put words in my mouth. Which most of the posters do.
And I am punished with no response? =P
There isn't much to respond to. I agree with most of the post.
But I would caution you that if you don't create a way for new players to join the community then you only have empty servers to look forward to.
The way for a group-focused game to appeal to new players is to make the group-focused gameplay fun, not to offer more avenues to succeed without other players/guilds.
No it's not. If you want someone to change what there accustomed to you have to do it slowly, if the change is too fast then people will resist the change. People like what they like. If however what you do is create systems that create positive interactions between solo players and guilds that allows them to build up a reputation with each other so the guild knows they are getting a person they want in their guild and the person knows it's the kind of guild they want to be in. That is how, don't force them, convert them.
Or
Do something similar to what GW1 did.
Everyone started solo. Then there was a 2 player quest. That moved into a small group skirmish (don't remember if it was 2v2 or 4v4). Then they moved players into larger groups organically.
This might have been the best mechanism in the game. The rest wasn't terrible but it helped new players acclimate to larger groups as they played the main story.
No because again this forces people to group, and you don't want to do that.
No!
YOU don't want that. The majority of us do
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
So the problem solo players need to fix is themselves, being solo - make some friends.
Good plan tell 70% of the MMO population pass on this game.
Not every player who has a preference for solo gameplay is as much of a sour grape as you.
Many of those 70% might enjoy the playstyle of WoW, or whatever other solo-friendly MMO, for now, because it's what has worked so far - but would be perfectly willing to adjust their expectations and behaviours in order to fit into a game where the priorities and demands are different, and change the way they play, if they find that this new gameplay loop is also enjoyable.
As for the rest, yes.
Yes, it is a fantastic idea to tell them to pass on this game.
All the reasons why WoW is such a boring soulless themepark filled with dailies and grind quests and arenas instead of anything of substance can be traced back to its attempt of appealing to everyone:
Where comfort and convenience are cranked up to the max.
And where communication and finding people whose playstyles you agree with is entirely optional, and grouping is streamlined without any social interaction required.
Ashes doesn't make this mistake.
Ashes is for players who are willing to combine PvP and PvE challenges,
who are willing to compete for high rewards at high risks and accept the setback when other players beat them to the objective,
and who care about building a world where their contribution alters the way the world looks, and what happens in it.
The rest can go play WoW, FFXIV and ESO, instead of disappointing themselves with something that wasn't made to appeal to their demands for a solo play theme park LFG lobby.
Well this is progress of a sort.
Implying what?
You didn't insult me or put words in my mouth. Which most of the posters do.
And I am punished with no response? =P
There isn't much to respond to. I agree with most of the post.
But I would caution you that if you don't create a way for new players to join the community then you only have empty servers to look forward to.
The way for a group-focused game to appeal to new players is to make the group-focused gameplay fun, not to offer more avenues to succeed without other players/guilds.
No it's not. If you want someone to change what there accustomed to you have to do it slowly, if the change is too fast then people will resist the change. People like what they like. If however what you do is create systems that create positive interactions between solo players and guilds that allows them to build up a reputation with each other so the guild knows they are getting a person they want in their guild and the person knows it's the kind of guild they want to be in. That is how, don't force them, convert them.
Or
Do something similar to what GW1 did.
Everyone started solo. Then there was a 2 player quest. That moved into a small group skirmish (don't remember if it was 2v2 or 4v4). Then they moved players into larger groups organically.
This might have been the best mechanism in the game. The rest wasn't terrible but it helped new players acclimate to larger groups as they played the main story.
No because again this forces people to group, and you don't want to do that.
No!
YOU don't want that. The majority of us do
No YOU don't want that. Because even if people are willing to group and you start forcing people to do things they aren't ready to do they will stop playing the game, and even if they do participate in whatever thing you want to they will be resentful.
0
bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Starting to think no this is a troll thread and I have been had.
Well done good sir.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
Starting to think no this is a troll thread and I have been had.
Well done good sir.
This isn't a troll.
Do you want to grow the community? Of course you do, how do you do that? By making the game as accessible as possible and creating a place for people to integrate at their own pace. Not by forcing people to play the game the way you want to play it. That's how you piss people off.
OP. I'm sure your thread is wonderfully written, but I am not reading a thread the size of a Harry Potter book. Gotta summarize your thoughts some
I mean the quickest i could give you is making solo players work that hard to get to max level and not give them an end game system to play with is a bit much. At most 20% of what end game offers but i don't know what that would entail at this point.
0
scottstone7Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Do you want to grow the community? Of course you do, how do you do that? By making the game as accessible as possible and creating a place for people to integrate at their own pace. Not by forcing people to play the game the way you want to play it. That's how you piss people off.
So.... Your complaint is that solo players are at a disadvantage in a game largely designed and intended to be played in groups... And your solution is to force everyone else to play the way you want to or accept you being some sort of OP solo-man? Somehow single handedly being able to compete with entire teams of other players? Are you catching the "you’re a bit touched in the head vibes" I’m sending here? I’m sending them pretty hard. I’m sorry, but if you think reworking the game like that and taking it so far from the original and promised vision, for a potential minority of players to get their feel goods about being OP then this isn’t going to be the game for you. Piece of advice, cut your losses now, move on.
OP. I'm sure your thread is wonderfully written, but I am not reading a thread the size of a Harry Potter book. Gotta summarize your thoughts some
I mean the quickest i could give you is making solo players work that hard to get to max level and not give them an end game system to play with is a bit much. At most 20% of what end game offers but i don't know what that would entail at this point.
Hate to break it to you, but that 20% of instanced content is at the end of PvX areas and are for groups, not for lone wolves.
The best you can hope for is if there end up being 1v1 arenas, which thus far we’ve only heard of 3v3 and up.
1
bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Starting to think no this is a troll thread and I have been had.
Well done good sir.
This isn't a troll.
Do you want to grow the community? Of course you do, how do you do that? By making the game as accessible as possible and creating a place for people to integrate at their own pace. Not by forcing people to play the game the way you want to play it. That's how you piss people off.
No.
The way you grow the community is by being honest.
This is what we are offering. There are tools to help people integrate into what we are offering. Then let the chips fall where they may.
Stop trying to force everyone to play solo and stop expecting what has always been promoted as an old school MMO that is centered on groups.
You want to play solo and mage tank everything. Great, hope you find what your looking for, but this was stated from the very beginning as not that.
Stop trying to force people to play solo.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
Starting to think no this is a troll thread and I have been had.
Well done good sir.
This isn't a troll.
Do you want to grow the community? Of course you do, how do you do that? By making the game as accessible as possible and creating a place for people to integrate at their own pace. Not by forcing people to play the game the way you want to play it. That's how you piss people off.
No.
The way you grow the community is by being honest.
This is what we are offering. There are tools to help people integrate into what we are offering. Then let the chips fall where they may.
Stop trying to force everyone to play solo and stop expecting what has always been promoted as an old school MMO that is centered on groups.
You want to play solo and mage tank everything. Great, hope you find what your looking for, but this was stated from the very beginning as not that.
Stop trying to force people to play solo.
First, we need to look at the psychological effect of being happy or just plain having fun while doing something difficult. There is a direct relationship between how much fun a person is having and how likely they will complete a task. That means the happier people are the more likely they are to finish a task, no matter how distasteful. This means that of all the things that are important having fun is the most important.
I do not think I have seen a more condescending and intellectually insulting start to a writing in my life. Not to mention it being completely wrong on every level.
Comments
How do you define a solo player?
For me is one who can group with randoms every day but just wants to avoid guilds.
People who really do not want to group at all need different kind of games.
I gave you a clear answer: I know that Intrepid makes mistakes and if you cant even filter that from 13 words, how are we to discuss complexer systems than that?
What are "those things"? You want to discuss this, be specific.
True, the system hasn't been tested yet, but this is not an issue for solo players, because they are not meant to be the focus group - groups and guilds are. If solo players are lucky, the system will provide them with opportunities to gruadually move into what the package of the game says: This is a group focused MMORPG.
The loss of resources has been present in games before and Steven is on record taking inspiration from games where stuff wasn't globally available through auction houses but instead have to be moved around. As for certain resources being available only during certain seasons: That doesn't seem to be a problem unless these resources are necessary for everyone to have and no alternatives exist. And if that were the case thats just an overall issue, not a single player issue.
And what makes the class system not fun? Do you think the Archetypes are badly designed? Do you doubt the meaningfulness of the augment system?
Again, because that is what I've been saying in my first comment: The timing is just odd. 7 years of archetype development and 8x8 class design plus a promise to make the system in the 8x8 pattern - If you want anyone to take this serious "It could be a problem" will not suffice, people will just shrug their shoulders and wait a few weeks until they can test the systems and provide ACTUAL feedback
Anyhow without stretching this discussion into the infinite: Yes there is a problem for solo players: They are trying to play a multiplayer game alone and Intrepid (rightfully) does not intend to cater to them at the cost of social group gameplay.
Your post is just suggesting that no solo-player is going to stay long enough to benefit from these avenues because they'll be too indignant about not having enough of an impact and not getting good enough rewards on their own to feel powerful.
But there we are talking about players who get frustrated at their own power while trying to force a playstyle onto a game that isn't meant to be successful in that game. If you give those players the power they demand, you're no longer just making the game enticing to them. You're changing the game into the game they want to play, so they'll stick around. And then, even if some of those players discover the joy of social gameplay as the default, you still don't have the game Intrepid wanted to make anymore, you just have WoW Light with some extra features. If that's what those players need, they should kick Blizzard (or insert themepark developer of your choice) to their asses to get it, not try to make Ashes something it isn't supposed to be.
Player characters who belong to Guilds can Solo.
Both definitions of "solo player" make some sense:
The one who doesn't want to be associated with a guild (they might even still be in one for practical sakes, but they certainly won't spend most of their game time with them or follow demanding guild policies) but is willing to play in ad-hoc groups of players consistently for 60+% of their game time if necessary (let's call them "liberty seekers");
And the one who may or may not join a guild, but spends 60%+ of their time not surrounded by other people of any affiliation, aside perhaps from enemies in 1v1s (let's call them misanthropes, antisocial "hermits/loners/introverts".)
CROW3's arguing specifically against hermits, because they're the only ones who really face the brunt of negative downsides of trying to play Ashes the way they want to, and being disappointed if the game's reward scheme doesn't cater to them.
Discussing the liberty seeker playstyle doesn't make a lot of sense, because they don't disagree much with Ashes's requirements in the first place.
Sure, there will be some advantages they won't have that active members of rigorously coordinated guilds will get, but they can still play the game and see the respectable fruit of their efforts.
I can't say I am surprised at all by this - though I didn't want to assume it to be the case.
Or
Do something similar to what GW1 did.
Everyone started solo. Then there was a 2 player quest. That moved into a small group skirmish (don't remember if it was 2v2 or 4v4). Then they moved players into larger groups organically.
This might have been the best mechanism in the game. The rest wasn't terrible but it helped new players acclimate to larger groups as they played the main story.
This was your "clear anwser"
First of all there are 113 words there not 13. Second of all the first 65 words are you making a reductio ad absurdum argument in direct reference to me asking you "Do you think the devs can make a mistake". That tells me you don't think the devs can make mistakes.
The next 35 words of that paragraph are you saying "Intrepid obviously is not perfect" which isn't what I asked about. I asked specifically "Do you think the devs can make a mistake?" If you think that was a "clear answer" then you are very wrong. You said "Intrepid" at no point did I refer to the entire studio
If you wanted to give a clear answer it should look something like this; "Yes I agree that the devs can make a mistake." Then after that say whatever else you want. Use the same language because it's possible for intrepid to not be perfect, and the devs to not make a mistake.
I don't know. In a game that touts Risk vs Reward as a "Pillar" then proceeds to give people bonuses for making decisions that are inherently less risky and gives nothing to people that are doing something more risky I would say that's a punishment.
They are literally breaking their own pillar by NOT giving solo players something for soloing in the game.
Old man yells at cloud
No because again this forces people to group, and you don't want to do that.
At this point you need to realize that Ashes fundamentally not for players like you who want to run it solo. You’ll need a group for efficient crafting, you’ll need one for raiding, for PvPing, and even for some areas of grinding.
To ask for solo-friendly content is to ask for a different game.
Make some friends and start a little guild or something, but you can’t be successful in a MMO on your own. That’s by design and how it should be.
Think of it like this. You want to build a new house in the real world. Are you going to do it solo? That would be extremely difficult and very time-consuming, not to mention weather and/or vandalism can and will most likely set you back. After you gather all the resources and even start building it will take you a minimum of months to complete that house not including the weather/vandalism damage. Are you then going to whine and complain that companies that use teams of people to do the same thing in a fraction of the time it’s taking you? Wait… Is your name Karen by chance?
Did you actually read either of those? The first one is there will be quests in the game, which yeah it's a fantasy game. The second is the section I linked in the OP literally says quests and "hunting grounds" which again yeah quests and areas where you don't need a group
No!
YOU don't want that. The majority of us do
No YOU don't want that. Because even if people are willing to group and you start forcing people to do things they aren't ready to do they will stop playing the game, and even if they do participate in whatever thing you want to they will be resentful.
Well done good sir.
This isn't a troll.
Do you want to grow the community? Of course you do, how do you do that? By making the game as accessible as possible and creating a place for people to integrate at their own pace. Not by forcing people to play the game the way you want to play it. That's how you piss people off.
---Steven Sharif
I mean the quickest i could give you is making solo players work that hard to get to max level and not give them an end game system to play with is a bit much. At most 20% of what end game offers but i don't know what that would entail at this point.
So.... Your complaint is that solo players are at a disadvantage in a game largely designed and intended to be played in groups... And your solution is to force everyone else to play the way you want to or accept you being some sort of OP solo-man? Somehow single handedly being able to compete with entire teams of other players? Are you catching the "you’re a bit touched in the head vibes" I’m sending here? I’m sending them pretty hard. I’m sorry, but if you think reworking the game like that and taking it so far from the original and promised vision, for a potential minority of players to get their feel goods about being OP then this isn’t going to be the game for you. Piece of advice, cut your losses now, move on.
Hate to break it to you, but that 20% of instanced content is at the end of PvX areas and are for groups, not for lone wolves.
The best you can hope for is if there end up being 1v1 arenas, which thus far we’ve only heard of 3v3 and up.
No.
The way you grow the community is by being honest.
This is what we are offering. There are tools to help people integrate into what we are offering. Then let the chips fall where they may.
Stop trying to force everyone to play solo and stop expecting what has always been promoted as an old school MMO that is centered on groups.
You want to play solo and mage tank everything. Great, hope you find what your looking for, but this was stated from the very beginning as not that.
Stop trying to force people to play solo.
Okay.
massively MULTIPLAYER online game.