Usually, in small scaled pvp (2v2, 3v3, up to 5v5) I would vote for an exact, precise HP target bar, because for professionell and well timed switches/target swaps for burst/focus dps you need this information.
For large scaled pvp which seems to be more in focus the current solution is fine, because individuals care less, group size matters and its not that important if the enemy is at 17% or 22%, its enough to see he is under 25%, last HP bar remaining. If 30 players switch after raid lead calls the target, that 25% player is gone, makes no added value if he was at 17% or 22% precisely.
No health bar just makes no sense, this is fully random dps without focused and tactical gameplay, you just fire randomly targets without knowing which targets potentially could be finished/swapped to.
This is such a bad take throughout this thread. (I got to this old quote from scrolling back through quote responses, sorry for bringing up such an old point, but it's been referenced in Flanker and Caeryl's recent messages.)
You don't have "no information" just because the health bar doesn't tell you the opponent's HP. You have all the information of the 3d battlefield. Abilities flying, players approaching and retreating. If you can't take that information into account to make good calls, that's a skill issue. If anything, that makes the strategic dynamic *more* interesting, because the game won't just tell you the most efficient next target.
In PvE, it's fine if you want the game to give you enough information to make accurate efficient decisions.
In PvP, efficiency is supposed to be a luxury you earn by tracking the battlefield and your opponent's behaviour and build, not a presupposed habit of the next "correct" thing to do in order to win.
This applies regardless of whether we're talking about non-combatant health bars or all health bars being affected by these design choices.
Yeah, wouldn't it have been great if L2 showed you player health so you could better judge if you were - from their perspective - helping them out of a tight spot, or trying to steal their mobs?
But I'd never know if them being at low hp is fine. In L2 there was a class that would excel at dmg if they were at low hp. And if they're surrounded by mobs I wouldn't even be able to see what class they are, so I'd be directly stealing mobs from someone who's at their peak performance.
Sure, but it would happen less frequently
Again, you have no idea if you were helping out, how much you were helping out, or if you were hurting the player in L2. If health information is shown, then you are better able to work this out. If class information was also readily shown in L2, it would have solved the issue you are talking about here.
It's almost as if more information lets people make more informed decisions or something.
This phrasing is better than before when you called it "exponentially less often," (ostensibly hyperbolic, but still out of character for you?), but even here I disagree with this assumption.
I don't know that the habit of helping strangers will be any less likely. I personally would probably make it a habit to help out anyone I pass by unless the context somehow makes it unambiuously apparent that they couldn't possibly need it. Specifically *because* I can't see their HP. If they have a freakout about me interfering by healing them or throwing an AoE, I won't care, because I know of myself that if I get any valuable loot, I'll trade it back to them without hesitation.
No matter which direction player tendency leans, I think you're blowing this way out of proportion by pretending that not seeing who's in danger would all-but-eliminate players quietly helping each other out. (Which is something that already rarely happens in games where you *do* see the HP, so really how significant is what we're talking about here?)
Also, if you can't take the time to type "help" into chat - how much do you really need the help?
Which leads to my general assumption about some of the arguments here:
It seems what some people *really* want to be saying is that an unusual health bar *feels* bad. Unfamiliar and unsatisfying.
All of which is true. But it also completely goes away after a week or two of adjustment. Because what's ultimately satisfying isn't lowering a player's health bar; it's actually taking that player down.
So what I think the real concern should be is that, whichever solution Intrepid go with, they should be extremely explicit about communicating the intended purpose of those unfamiliar design decisions to new players, and make it very clear how players are supposed to work with them.
The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
This phrasing is better than before when you called it "exponentially less often," (ostensibly hyperbolic, but still out of character for you?), but even here I disagree with this assumption.
I don't know that the habit of helping strangers will be any less likely. I personally would probably make it a habit to help out anyone I pass by unless the context somehow makes it unambiuously apparent that they couldn't possibly need it. Specifically *because* I can't see their HP. If they have a freakout about me interfering by healing them or throwing an AoE, I won't care, because I know of myself that if I get any valuable loot, I'll trade it back to them without hesitation.
No matter which direction player tendency leans, I think you're blowing this way out of proportion by pretending that not seeing who's in danger would all-but-eliminate players quietly helping each other out. (Which is something that already rarely happens in games where you *do* see the HP, so really how significant is what we're talking about here?)
Also, if you can't take the time to type "help" into chat - how much do you really need the help?
Obviously this is just my experience, but none of this is true for me.
I don't like being helped when I don't need it.
I don't like helping people unless I'm sure they need it, but in games where I can see HP and understand a situation, then I help them basically whenever I can. 'People being in danger' might be rare, but FROM there, I'd say that if I can see HP and understand the area I'm in I generally will help.
I don't expect people to have time to even notice that someone might be around to help them, every time, if they are deep in combat with something serious, and they might not even know, and I definitely don't assume people have time to spare in a fight that they thought they could win and are desperately trying to win, to type anything.
Especially not in games with quicker and deeper combat.
This obviously means that sometimes I don't help people who I think have it under control, and I've definitely got the reaction of 'why did you just stand there and let me die?!' but that wasn't because I couldn't be bothered to help, it's because I saw their HP, saw how the fight was going, and figured they were fine. That reaction is rare though because normally I DO help, it's just too late because I overestimated them.
So, just throwing in the counter-anecdote, and my viewpoint on that. A bar divided into quarters is sorta-enough to know if to help or not but not when the player is at 28%, because it's going to show it at half. As long as 'reacting when I see it dip into the last quarter' is fast enough, it'd be fine, ofc.
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You don't have "no information" just because the health bar doesn't tell you the opponent's HP. You have all the information of the 3d battlefield. Abilities flying, players approaching and retreating. If you can't take that information into account to make good calls, that's a skill issue. If anything, that makes the strategic dynamic *more* interesting, because the game won't just tell you the most efficient next target.
In PvE, it's fine if you want the game to give you enough information to make accurate efficient decisions.
In PvP, efficiency is supposed to be a luxury you earn by tracking the battlefield and your opponent's behaviour and build, not a presupposed habit of the next "correct" thing to do in order to win.
This applies regardless of whether we're talking about non-combatant health bars or all health bars being affected by these design choices.
This phrasing is better than before when you called it "exponentially less often," (ostensibly hyperbolic, but still out of character for you?), but even here I disagree with this assumption.
I don't know that the habit of helping strangers will be any less likely. I personally would probably make it a habit to help out anyone I pass by unless the context somehow makes it unambiuously apparent that they couldn't possibly need it. Specifically *because* I can't see their HP. If they have a freakout about me interfering by healing them or throwing an AoE, I won't care, because I know of myself that if I get any valuable loot, I'll trade it back to them without hesitation.
No matter which direction player tendency leans, I think you're blowing this way out of proportion by pretending that not seeing who's in danger would all-but-eliminate players quietly helping each other out. (Which is something that already rarely happens in games where you *do* see the HP, so really how significant is what we're talking about here?)
Also, if you can't take the time to type "help" into chat - how much do you really need the help?
Which leads to my general assumption about some of the arguments here:
It seems what some people *really* want to be saying is that an unusual health bar *feels* bad. Unfamiliar and unsatisfying.
All of which is true. But it also completely goes away after a week or two of adjustment. Because what's ultimately satisfying isn't lowering a player's health bar; it's actually taking that player down.
So what I think the real concern should be is that, whichever solution Intrepid go with, they should be extremely explicit about communicating the intended purpose of those unfamiliar design decisions to new players, and make it very clear how players are supposed to work with them.
Obviously this is just my experience, but none of this is true for me.
I don't like being helped when I don't need it.
I don't like helping people unless I'm sure they need it, but in games where I can see HP and understand a situation, then I help them basically whenever I can. 'People being in danger' might be rare, but FROM there, I'd say that if I can see HP and understand the area I'm in I generally will help.
I don't expect people to have time to even notice that someone might be around to help them, every time, if they are deep in combat with something serious, and they might not even know, and I definitely don't assume people have time to spare in a fight that they thought they could win and are desperately trying to win, to type anything.
Especially not in games with quicker and deeper combat.
This obviously means that sometimes I don't help people who I think have it under control, and I've definitely got the reaction of 'why did you just stand there and let me die?!' but that wasn't because I couldn't be bothered to help, it's because I saw their HP, saw how the fight was going, and figured they were fine. That reaction is rare though because normally I DO help, it's just too late because I overestimated them.
So, just throwing in the counter-anecdote, and my viewpoint on that. A bar divided into quarters is sorta-enough to know if to help or not but not when the player is at 28%, because it's going to show it at half. As long as 'reacting when I see it dip into the last quarter' is fast enough, it'd be fine, ofc.